What Is Going on in 1 Samuel 28 (Witch of Endor)?

Published Sep 12, 2023, 7:45 PM

Welcome back to season five of Enter the Bible, a podcast in which we share "Everything You Wanted to Know about the Bible...but were afraid to ask."

In episode 10 of season 5, our hosts are joined by the Rev. Dr. Karl Jacobson (M.Div., Luther Seminary; Th.D., Providence) who served as Senior Pastor at Lutheran Church of the Good Shepherd in Minneapolis, Minn. Prior to that, he was Assistant Professor of Religion at Augsburg College.

Today our theologians will be answering the listener-submitted question, "What Is Going on in 1 Samuel 28 (Witch of Endor)?"

Watch the video version on YouTube at https://youtu.be/sthJCzUbKSc

Do you have Bible questions you would like answered? Go to our website at https://enterthebible.org/about to get started.

This episode of the Enter the Bible podcast was recorded at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, MN on July 12, 2023.

Hello and welcome to the Enter the Bible podcast where you can get answers or at least reflections on everything you wanted to know about the Bible, but were afraid to ask. I'm Kathryn Schifferdecker .

And I'm Katie Langston. And today on the podcast, we have a very special guest, Reverend Dr. Karl Jacobson, who is a pastor at Lutheran Church of the Good Shepherd in Minneapolis and an Old Testament scholar, author extraordinaire. Welcome, welcome.

I'll take it you can just keep talking.

I'm so glad you're with us.

Thank you for the invitation.

Yeah, absolutely. So today we have a listener question, which I love that it came it's a great question that came in. And I also wonder about this. And to you, dear listener or viewer on YouTube, if you have a question, you can submit it at our website: Enter the Bible. Org. And we do all that we can to answer the questions that we receive, as many as possible. So here is the question 1 Samuel 28 is about Saul consulting a medium who lived in Endor, which is also the name of the Ewok Planet in Star Wars, Return of the Jedi. Just saying. And I noticed, Karl, that your Bible.

Star Wars edition

Star Wars-y. So this is obviously why we had to invite you on to answer this question.

What a happy accident. Exactly.

Uh, so anyway, it's consulting a medium from Endor the Ewok planet. Although it's not the Ewok Planet in the Bible who brings Samuel's spirit up from some place of the dead. And he and Saul have a conversation. Our questioner says, not exactly Sunday school content. There's a lot of other things going on in this story. I'd love to hear your take on it and how Jews and Christians have wrestled with this passage so, yeah, it's a weird one. You know, that's one of the ones when I when I encountered it, I was like, wow, this is this is exciting. There's exciting stories in the Bible, but hard to understand.

Yeah. And strange and. And frequently. So some place of the dead that sort of gets at the an ongoing question of. It's what our tradition has inherited in terms of what we think of as heaven and hell and hell being, frankly, a mostly medieval construction. Not terribly biblical in a lot of ways, because, you know, especially the Old Testament understanding of there being a land of the dead, the place where everyone.

So everyone goes there, not just like not just the bad ones.

Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, I mean it's confusing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so let's set up the context first. Sure. Okay, so this is. This is Saul, King Saul, right. Who was the first king in Israel, anointed by Samuel the prophet / judge/ priest? Samuel kind of has several roles, but mostly prophet. And so Saul starts out really good and then he angers God. He doesn't obey God. There' various stories that we don't need to get into completely. But so God sends Samuel to anoint David in Saul's place. But that transition takes a pretty long time. So Saul continues to be king for quite a while. He obviously feels threatened by David for good reason. Was it Nixon who said, or sometimes paranoia is justified, right?

Just because you're a paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

That's right. Something like that. Yeah. So so David is kind of is very much in the background here, but throughout the books of Samuel, really first and second Samuel, there's a lot of warring with the Philistines, this neighboring nation that are enemies of Israel. And so that's the the context here is so David has fled from Saul, is actually hiding out with the Philistines, but is secretly fighting for Israel. We don't have to get into that. But now but then Saul is getting ready to fight the Philistines yet again. He sees the Philistine forces assembled and they outnumber the Israelites. He's terrified. And so he wants to consult God to find out what he should do and what and. But God has basically rejected Saul, really. And does not reply. So in verse six, 21st, Samuel 28 six when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, not by dreams or by Urim or by prophets. Then Saul said to his servants, Seek out for me a woman who is a medium so that I may go to her and inquire of her. A medium, of course, someone who can call up spirits from the dead. And so Saul wants to. Samuel has died in the meantime, Of course. And so Saul wants to consult with his old mentor, Samuel. So that's the context. Saul is terrified. That's the context. And God is not speaking to him.

And then. And then. He goes to the medium and then Samuel comes up and he's like, why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? Which I think is awesome. He's like, What are you doing?

Why are you bothering me?

Why are you bothering me? Am. Yeah. And then like, doesn't really. Well then he tells him some stuff. That's kind of a bummer for Saul, right?

And it's. It's a repeat. Yeah. Of what's gone before. And in some ways what the story is doing. It's intensifying what's already happened. Okay, So back in 1 Samuel 15, when Saul's first rejected as king because. But he's told that they're supposed to wipe out their enemy entirely, take no spoil. And. He takes a bunch of sheep and keeps them. And then Samuel says, has the Lord has great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obedience to the voice of the Lord. Answer: No. Surely to obey is better than sacrifice to heed, than the fat of rams, for rebellion is no less a sin than divination. And so the king is going to be torn away from him. And now that we get this divination story, Yeah, so sin piled on top of sin, disobedience piled on top of disobedience. And the irony is in this story, Saul had driven the mediums out of Israel as he was supposed to, and now.

He's like, Uh oh, I got to bring one back.

Exactly right. And like Proverbs says, a fool returns to his folly like a dog returns to its vomit. That's exactly what Saul was doing.

What Saul's doing here. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And even she, I mean, again, there's some irony in the story because the, the medium says to him, well, surely you know what Saul did. Speaking.

Speaking to Saul?

Yes.

He's in disguise.

He's in disguise.

He's in disguise. He doesn't want anyone to know that he's going to consult the medium. Yeah. So then he's cut off the mediums and the wizards from the land. Why are you laying a snare for my life? To bring about my death?

But then and then he's like.

Yeah, but I'm. But I'm. Yeah. No, no one's going to hurt you. He says to her.

But then it's interesting that when Samuel's spirit comes up.

Yeah.

The woman said to Saul, Why have you deceived me? You, Saul? So she has that insight from Samuel.

Exactly.

Right. And it's Saul. And then, of course, Samuel's message is is really harsh, right? Pronounces judgment. This is verse 18, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek. Therefore, the Lord has done this thing to you today. Moreover, here's the crux of the matter. The Lord will give Israel, along with you, into the hands of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your son shall be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines. So yea, be with me. In other words, in the underworld. R

Right

Yeah. So Saul's Samuel prophesies Saul's death, right?

Yeah.

Which happens relatively quickly then in the story in the next two chapters.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So can I ask a couple of questions about this? Because it is, it is a weird story. So, number one. Um. Why is divination such a bad thing? Like, I know. I know people who like.

Who do tarot cards?

Yeah, they do tarot cards. But I know people who think they have like, a special connection to the dead. And it makes me feel a little like, kind of, you know, sketched out by it. But I mean, if there are people who have such abilities, you know, why is that bad?

I would say based on this story, it seems to me. What that sort of power or going to that place to get answers when God has already not answered. You know, it's you're trying to do an end around.

An end run around.

To something you're not supposed to have. Yeah. So I guess I wouldn't necessarily know how to speak to divination or or magic, right?

Right.

In general. But what's happening in this story.

It's pretty like frowned upon throughout all of Scripture.

It's outlawed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then there's the story of the little girl in Acts who has that power, but God uses it for God's purposes with Paul and the.

Yeah.

Um. It's it's dangerous. That's the problem. And it's also it's it's a snare in terms of. Right. So Saul says to this woman, you know, she puts him on the spot, right. Don't you know what Saul did? Right. And behind that is the command that God gave that this should happen. Yeah. And then Saul swears by the Lord's name, right? So uses the Lord's name in vain. Yeah, it's. It's maybe the most explicit example of the first commandment being

shattered.

Yeah.

That's the danger, at least in this story.

Yeah. It does seem like there's sometimes with the legal material like, again, this is mediums, wizardry is is a divination is outlawed in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, it's not always explicitly said why like for instance famously in Leviticus 19, you're not supposed to get tattoos. Well, well, yeah. Sorry, Katie.

It's not that one.

It's never it's never said why and I and the same is true with the divination stuff. But I think, I think you've, you've hit on it. I think that it's doing an end run around. God, it's dabbling in things that are dangerous. Right. That there's there seems to be an understanding that there are spiritual forces that one should not associate with. Right.

And part I also think part of what's going on in the legal material, Leviticus in particular, is it's about separating behaviors.

Yes.

From Israel's neighbors.

Right. Sure.

Right. When, you know, syncretism, bringing other forms of worship into worship of the Lord is a huge problem in scripture all over the place.

That's a huge problem today. Well.

Yeah.

And and it's taken very seriously. And so from the way people dress, yeah, probably to some of the things they're allowed or not allowed to eat.

Right.

And much of that is about. Um. Foreign religious practice. I think the most important example of that is also in Leviticus. For the longest time, nobody understood where the prohibition against boiling a kid in its mother's milk came from. Yeah, it sounds tasty.

It's a baby goat. Not a human kid, right?

Correct.

Thank you. Just. Just needed to clarify that. Not a human. That's correct. Very good.

So then a discovery was made of a spell used in a neighboring religion. And I don't remember what it's called, so I can't direct you to it. But where that's part of this ritual practice.

I see.

So maybe that's why it's prohibited. Because then you're worshiping another God, perhaps like your neighbors.

Right? Yeah. Over and over again in Leviticus, that's. You know, you shall be holy for I, the Lord your God am holy,

Holy there not like holier than thou, but holy as in sanctified. Separated.

Hmm.

One of my friends calls it weird, right? To be weird. And the best sense of that word like set apart, not participating in these other distinct.

Yeah, distinct.

I think that's a good way to. To. Right. Like you're to reflect the kind of life that God designed for you, for human beings. Right. Which also includes. Don't dabble in the dark arts. Right. Don't.

Yeah. Right.

Don't don't try to control a power that you cannot control because it may. It will get the better of you.

Yeah.

I think about an article I read. This is several years ago now about the rise in exorcisms. Yeah. In today's world. Yes. And and you know that that there are actually Catholic priests trained as exorcist and that they've gotten kind of inundated with more and more calls for exorcism. And it's not the stuff of horror you know, it's it's real problems, real and a real issue. And and the the thing I remember about that article most is that these priests were asked, well, why do you think this is happening? And they said, well, one reason is that people are fascinated with the occult. Yeah, right.

With it's such a thing right now, like it's all over. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's celebrity psychics. I was just listening to a podcast that had a celebrity psychic on and I was like, Oh, this sounds sketchy or, you know, tarot cards are super all the rage right now and witchcraft. I know people who think of themselves as as witches. And I know it sounds I mean, I hear myself say that and it sounds like so bizarre, but it really is a thing that's come that's coming back in sort of a post-modern world where people are like kind of letting go of, you know, traditional orthodoxies and sort of trying to find things that resonate with them. And I think they sometimes are playing around with things that aren't. Aren't awesome. Like, I have a friend who had some issues with feeling in in spiritual warfare as a result of some, like, divination she had sought out.

So yeah, it's so. Yeah, it's a thing. This story may be more relevant than we than we think, but yeah, I mean, for today's world. But it is this. Yeah, it's a kind of warning against being like other people surrounding them and a warning against playing with forces that and.

And yeah, there's a reason.

Right? Right.

There's a reason for it. It can be dangerous.

Right, right, right, right, right.

So my other question then. Sorry, I'm just...

No, it's good

Asking all the questions. But my other question is, so where where is Saul then? Like what? And like. He. An old man is coming up. He's wrapped in a robe like wear.

Where, Samuel you mean?

Yep. I meant to say Samuel. I said Saul, but I meant to say Samuel. Like, where is he then? Like, he's...

In Sheol apparently

in the realm of the dead. And and that would have been understood to be sheol, which is the realm of the dead.

Yeah. Do you want to talk a bit about Shell?

Well, yeah. Again, it's. It's not. It's not hell. Right. The way we might think of it, because of our tradition or whatever, it's. It's the land of the dead. And it's where everyone goes. Okay. And it's probably correct me Kathryn, if I'm wrong, but it's. It's. That's a pretty common ancient near Eastern construct. That there is a place where the dead go. And there isn't much talk about, you know, whether it's reward or punishment. Everybody goes, yeah, I know that in in Mesopotamia it's kind of confined to households, right? So the dead reside below the house where they lived.

Oh, wow.

But there's nothing like that in the Bible as far as I'm aware anyway.

Yeah. So. Sheol all seems to be kind of a synonym for the grave because in the Psalms. And correct me if I'm wrong, Karl. Uh, sheol is is understood as a kind of confining place and to and to be saved from Sheol or drawn up from Sheol is to be in a wide open space. Right. So it's it's very similar to to the grave. I mean, that's the kind of features that Sheol has. It's it's not punishment, you're right. But it's it's kind of a just.

Sort of a bummer of a place.

Yeah.

I mean do you get out?

It's not someplace you want to be.

Do you get out of Sheol and are you, like, conscious there? Sorry. That's like.

Well I mean yeah certainly as as we move through the Old Testament, through the Hebrew Bible by Daniel, one of the later books in the Old Testament, you have a you have a full fledged belief in the resurrection of the dead. Yeah. The dead shall be raised from from, from the grave. Right, Sheol? Yeah. And we'll live again. So I if you're interested listeners, if you're interested in this topic from a Jewish perspective, my own teacher, Jon Levenson, wrote a lovely book on resurrection. It's called Resurrection and the Restoration of Israel The Ultimate Victory of the God of Life.

Wow.

Which I love. And that title and the book is wonderful. And he says and I think this is exactly right, that in the Old Testament, we don't have until later books like Daniel a full fledged belief in resurrection. It's more this kind of shadowy afterworld.

It's more ambiguous.

It's more ambiguous. But then by the time of Daniel and certainly by the time of the New Testament, or at least the Pharisees, who usually get a bad rap, right? The Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the body, the resurrection of the dead, which is where Jesus agrees with them. Right. And when Jesus is is kind of mediating that controversy between the Pharisees and Sadducees,

who don't believe in it.

They don't believe Jesus. Don't believe in it.

Right. Jesus says God is God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and God is God of the living, not the dead. He says to the Sadducees, You are completely wrong.

Huh

So it's a it's a kind of development of thought. Whereas here and I think in other books of the Old Testament, you have this kind of underworld Sheol eventually the fuller realization comes about that know that God is a God of life and that and that life wins. God wins. Belief in the resurrection.

That's just as a to dovetail a little bit, it's really important that your observation that there in the Hebrew Bible in the Old Testament there is a development. Yeah many developments of thought. Just circling back to the way we tend to think about God's Word, what the Bible is right. It all has to agree with every other part of it. Right? Because it's got to be consistent. It's not that simple. It was written over a vast amount of time by different people. And there there are changes and developments in thought and theology. I mean, my favorite example of that is the and I'm sorry, we're totally.

No, no, this I mean this. I think it all relates. Yeah.

The when people say there's just a couple of monotheistic religions, and the Old Testament is an example of it. It's actually not true. Eventually, right in the later material. Yeah. And in the prophetic body, it's monotheistic. Other gods are simply dismissed. But. But in many places it's what we would actually call henotheistic, meaning the Old Testament expects obedience to the Lord and.

The God of Israel.

Correct.

And the exclusion of all other gods which are out there.

Right. Right.

And again. Well, so maybe this does get us back to this.

Yeah, it does, actually.

Yeah. Um, it's. It's faithfulness to the Lord, the God of Israel. That is Saul's problem. Yeah. He. He doesn't stay faithful. Yeah.

Well, and in and those other gods. Right. That are, you know, the, the sort of pagan gods of the other lands or they're not the creator of the they're so they could be. I don't know. Tell me if I'm like way in the deep end at this point but they could be maybe somewhat analogous to other spiritual forces, other powers and principalities, which which Paul tells us exists, you know. That those are also in the world. But God is a ruler over the powers and principalities and the the the false gods, the other powers and is the creator of all that is. And that's pretty consistent throughout all the Old Testament.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a really bold statement that in the beginning it's the Lord, the God of Israel, who is the creator of the universe. And and in the Exodus story, the Lord, the God of Israel defeats all the gods of Egypt, including Pharaoh himself. Right. So, yes, even if there are other spiritual forces, Right. God is the God of Israel is the true God, the supreme God, the God who is not is is over all these other forces. Yeah.

Well and so again in this story when the woman raises Samuel and it says, I see a divine being. Divine being is Elohim.

Huh

She thinks she sees a god. Which maybe that's another indication of why divination is so dangerous. She doesn't recognize what she's called that.

Boy. That's a thing that happens, I think. You know, people think they it's so. It's so tricky. You could be, you can be deceived. You can you can be deceived by yourself. You could be deceived by other people to think that you are hearing a word from God or hearing a word from, you know, divine light or whatever. And maybe, like, maybe you're really not.

Yeah. Yeah.

Scary.

Yeah. I feel like we've, we've, we've gotten to very serious stuff.

Yeah. Really.

And I think we have to affirm again. Right. What we already said that the God that we worship, the God of Israel, the God of revealed in Jesus Christ is, is the creator of the world. And, and the one true God and and the Old Testament and New Testament are consistent.

That's right.

About that proclamation. So so we don't have to fear these other spiritual forces. And we shouldn't dabble with them.

Don't seek them out.

Yeah. Yes.

Huh? Wild. I feel like my my you know, Western skepticism is like blaring in the back of my mind. But at the same time, I've sort of, you know, do things that there's something to this, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

For sure.

Well, thank you, Karl. Yeah. Enlightening us about this very strange story.

Pleasure to be with you. And it's fun to read, you know, some of the stuff that we tend to neglect.

Yeah, for sure.

Like, yeah, this does not come up in the lectionary.

I'm going to do a sermon series on it. Just kidding. I don't think I will. Yeah, but thank you so much. Appreciate it. And what a what an interesting conversation. And thank you, our listeners and viewers, for being with us on this episode of the Enter the Bible podcast. You can get more resources, reflections, courses, commentaries, all kinds of stuff at our website. Enter the Bible. Org And wherever you are viewing or listening to this, be sure to subscribe it. Subscribe, Smash the Subscribe button. I heard that's what the kids say these days. Mash the subscribe button. Share it with a friend and give us a rating on Apple iTunes if you could. It really helps people find us. Thanks. We'll see you next time.