I am Sargean Case and this is Indiogram and coffee. Hello friends, Happy Friday. I hope your day is treating you well. Today we are talking with Laurie Palau. Laurie is the founder of Simply Be Organized, where she writes, teaches, and works with people of all ages, helping them to declutter and work smarter. She also hosts The Organized Life, a weekly podcast where she chats with awesome guests about life, work, parenting, and the role that organization has in their lives. Laura and I had a really fun discussion on her podcast about the indiogram and organization, and we thought it would be fun to hang out again and bring the conversation to you, and this time she's in the hot seat. Laurie, Welcome to the show. It's good to sit and chat with you again. It's great to sit and chat with you and of course talk all things inniogram, which is like my favorite thing to talk about. Yeah, as you know, we start every episode with your rosebud and thorn, what are yours today? So my rosebud would be the book that I'm working on. So I and this is my first public declaration, so you heard it here first so I've been working as you know, um, well, you know personally that I've been doing a lot of work the past few years on connecting the desk between people's relationship with clutter and there any gram type And I recently just signed with an agent, and so I'm working on this book right now. So I would say, um, that would definitely be my rosebud and the thorn is really I'm just very stressed with prioritizing my time. There's a lot of things going on in my life. This is a very busy season for me, just aside from work, and so I am not sleeping well because my brain is constantly going of all the things that I have to do. So I am trying to be very intentional about kind of just slowing day own and knowing that things will happen. But I've been a little bit anxiety read in these days. I feel like that's how it goes when like a big exciting things like books come into your life. It kind of like also ramps things up in a way that you're like, okay, like that's a that's a shift in energy. Almost totally. I agree. Um, so, can you tell me your indiogram journey? Like, how did you find the angiogram, how did you decide your type? What made you like it? So my story when it comes to the Instagram. So just prior to learning the Instagram, I've always been somebody that's been fascinated with personality types. I mean dating back to you know, and I'm dating myself, but back into the early nineties when I entered the workforce and I went to a conference and they had me do my Myers Briggs assessment, and I was always just found those types of introspection into who you are fascinating, and so I've always just recreation only looked at over the years different personality assessments, but never really did anything with it, Like it was just fun to know. And then I kind of went on my merry way. And then fast forward it was probably for me around and I had just released my first book and I was listening to a bunch of podcasts that you know, are constantly floating in my ear, and there's all this talk about the instagram, the antagram, and I was like, what is this anagram? I don't I've heard about it, but I don't know anything about it. So I just did some research and stumbled across um Richard Rower's teachings and bought a book on Amazon. I was like, okay, let me just buy this, and that was my first entrance into the anagram. And I brought the book with me on vacation. We're just about getting ready to leave for vacation, and you know, most people are doing like light quick reads on vacation, and I, no jokes, sat on the beach with like a pen and a highlighter and just absorbing this content like it was it was. It was just it was just going right into my soul. And at that point, I felt like this pull, this connection, that this was something way bigger than me, and I just wanted to learn more. And so that kind of set me down this three year rabbit hole of workshops and conferences and listening to podcasts and reading other books and just really trying to learn about the angiogram because I felt that it wasn't important just to know my type of to know all the types, but to answer your question about my type. I learned it pretty quickly. Um, I'm an eight, And I joked that I'm like an eight with an eight wing because I was like the textbook social eight that you would say. I was like, oh, yeah, that's me. Like there was no gray area for me. It was very very clear from the get go of what my type was. And again, I think, like most what many people say, at least the people that I talked to, is again, it's like someone's reading your mail. And I felt seen and heard really and understood, and that just to me was like this is this is transformative work and I would love to see how I can align it with the work that I do. And kind of that's how it all stemmed from there that I love the journey of like, oh, I'm definitely this type because it's so different from mine. But almost every other part of your journey I'm like, yes, yes, yes, where you're like, oh, I get like a little bit of this, and then I'm gonna go a little bit deeper, and then all of a sudden, you're like, give me everything, give me the podcast, in the books. I'm just because it is it's infinite kind of there's so much to learn. And my family just would roll their eyes because it was I kid you not. One year for Christmas, I got all any of Graham gifts. I got an anagram mug, I got Anagram necklace. It's like all anything related to Instagram like that was the and it was the theme. It was like the running joke in our house. I understand. Um, So when you found the indiogram, you were already doing organizational work or was that something that came Yeah, So my professional journey and I'll give you guys just the cliff notes. So I started my business in two thousand nine, so a long long time ago before having an organizing business was really popular and trendy, and I spent actually a better part of my time just explained the people what I did. But it was something that I really just stumbled upon doing. I had been an executive recruiter in my past life, and I always worked with people, and I've always the through line between my organizational approach and when my when I was working with people's recruiter is I was always very interested in why people wanted to make the changes that they did, whether it was why do I want to leave this job, or why do I want to take this job, or why do I want to hold onto this stuff or why do I want to get rid of this? For me, the y was always a driving force and so way before I learned about the angiogram. I studied different types of clutter and started creating language around that, and my strategies all dealt with motivation and getting to the root of it, not just looking at the behavior. And so, like I said, I published my first book without even knowing the angiogram. It's interesting because I was recently having a conversation with someone said I haven't really read this book in like since I wrote it, and they said, so much of it really still holds up and when you look at it. It was really the precursor to the work that I'm doing now because it talks about the why and that it's not your behavior and we so much so many times when it comes to clutter and organization, I want to make assessments or judgments or assumptions based on what we're seeing on the outside eide. But it's really until we can understand what's going on behind the scenes, can we then really have that light bulb moment And that's the caveat for change. And so when I started, and I think that's part of what really drew me to the angiogram is I was like, Oh, yeah, it's all about the why, and I'm about the why and realizing that there isn't a one size fits all approach and understanding that we can apply different strategies and still come up with the result that we want to be in the healthiest version of ourselves. It's just gonna look different for a one than it is for a seven. I am nodding my head like crazy because it I like, that's what it was for me too. Like I was in I was doing business coaching when I found the angiogram, and it was like so many coaches and I can imagine this happening in the organizational field as well, Like they're coming from the perspective of here's your strategy, so do this, do this, do this, but they're not looking at like why they're not doing that, or like why the behaviors and the habits that they've built so far getting them where they're going. And the in your GRAMD was kind of like this magic key to unlock the customization that's available when you're working with someone in such an intimate way. Absolutely, and for me, I even talk about and I thought I was going deep before, to be honest, and then when I learned the Instagram, like, oh, there's even more layers to go because I talk about in my teaching that I talked about three main types of clutter, physical clutter which is the stuff that you see, your emotional clutter which is usually stemming from guilt and fear. And calendar clutter, which is time management, not using your time wisely, how can you prioritize things better? And then from there I talk about five main clutter pitfalls, which are procrastination in decision. The procusta is obviously I'll get to it later, of the indecisions, I don't know what I'm gonna do, so I'm not gonna do anything. It's at like analysis paralysis that you've guilt, and then you have overwhelmed, which is the like I want to do it, but I don't even know where to begin. And then you have the time, which again goes back to like I'm ready to make these changes, but I'm so strapped I don't have that I'm not making or I don't have the time to do it. And so the work that I've been working on, this whole framework that I'm crafting now went to the book is going okay. So we know that every single human on the planet has dealt with any of those five clutter pitfalls at some point in their life. Right, We've all procrastinated over something. We've all had indecision or guilt or overwhelm er time constraints. But what's fascinating is why we procrastinate looks different. So the procrastination tactics specifically relating to clutter an organization again for two, looks very different than the reason why a nine might procrastinate. So the strategy, so first we need to understand why we're doing this, and then we could say, okay, knowing this about ourselves, what are the strategies that we can apply that are going to lean into what are you know, our strengths are, and where we can build up on the areas that we intuitively struggle based on our inagram type m hm, oh my gosh. Okay, So I know that people at home or like, but will you tell me what mine is? Um and I And I know that you have a guide on your website, so people can go get more in depth there as well, and we'll link that in the show notes. But for those who are listening here, can we kind of go through the numbers? For sure? Absolutely? Absolutely? So, yeah, so I'll just go And do you want me to just go in chronological order or you want me to go like tryad stances, I could do whichever you prefer. I view, Um, let's let's go in order. Let's start with one that sounds great. So again, and I'm sure if people are listening to your show, they know what the one is. But the one is the perfectionist or the improver, and so the one is somebody that is very detail oriented. They're intuitively either your list makers. They are the people that are always striving for excellence, the which are all wonderful things. Right, you want you know, you want ones in your life because they are going to make sure that every eye is dotted and every tea is crossed. In the world of clutter and organization, that can be a blessing and a curse because what I found is the ones will constantly be working to find that perfect whatever and I'm air quoting right now, whether it's the perfect bin or the perfect system or the perfect whatever and so. And even in your business or your personal life. A lot of times I see what I work with other professional organizers who are ones. They don't want to put content out there because they're like I could always be improving it. I can always be making it better. And in order for us they to really see that progress, you need to you need to get out there and just have that done. Is better than perfect, which is very three ish, but we'll get to that. And so I think we're the Ones. Really there's strengths which are great about being detail oriented list makers and all those wonderful things that are natural organization strategies can work against them when they have that inner critic inside them saying you can constantly be revising this, you can constantly be doing it better. And so for the Ones, it's really a matter of working on taking that action and not always be in the in the working planning phase. Yes, because it's like and I understand that beIN thing too, like that sense of life. I find the perfect ben, then like this will solve my problems. But until I find that been, like, I'm gonna I'm gonna wait until I find the one. Yes. Yes. And another very interesting thing about the Ones again, and I mean I could do it like an episode on each number, So I'll just stop me if I start to go too long. Ones Also, um, a lot of the stuff that I talked about on my show, and you know something, just the general practices I talk about are do things in like fifteen minute increments. Not everybody has a whole afternoon to dedicate to doing things. Just start small, do a little bit. And when I started doing research for my book, and I would was interviewing a lot of people of all the different Instagram types, that was almost cringe worthy to A one, and I'm not a one. And so they ones like to do things, at least the ones that I've spoken with, you like to do things from start to finish and have that completion so they could check it off their list. So when you do something in a fifteen minute increment and they didn't feel like it was completed, that actually caused more anxiety for A one. So I had to reframe what that fifteen minute look like where it was like pick something really really small that you could do so instead of saying, okay, we're going to clean the pantry, let's just work on this one shelf or let's just clean out this one drawer and making it very very small and very granular so that they could they couldn't check that thing off there to do list, which is something that a one likes to do. Yes, Oh my gosh, that makes complete sense. Okay, so what about our twos? Okay, love our two's. Obviously, twos are the helpers and the twos are And again we're not even getting into it in in the framework that I that I'm working on in the book, it gets really really geeked out into this three centers of intelligence, thinking, feeling, and doing in our tryads and our stances. But we're just going to kind of keep it top line for for this for now. Um. But our two's, obviously they're helpers and they are there for people. There your go to people, and you love that about the twos. Um. I find to struggle a lot with what I call emotional clutter because they will They're the people that will hold on to a high chair even though their kids are like twelve, because somebody might come over their house and have a baby and they want to have a high chair available to them. Oh my gosh. I feel like I have seen friends do this. It's a thing, trust me, so and I get it. And in their mind it is coming from this place of I want to be able to be there and I want to have all of these like things on hand, and because they are very feeling and they are very their empaths. You know, that is again a wonderful quality. But when it comes to making strategic logical decisions, when it comes to organization and prioritizing things, sometimes that can get in their way. Another thing is because who put themselves last, and they're the first one to you know, drop and help somebody, and you know, whether it's making a meal or pitching in for carpool or whatever. Um, if you don't have kids, it could be you know, helping a coworker out with a project at work or volunteering for something. I see time getting in the way when we talk about the five clutter pitfalls. Time is a big one for twos because there's so a lot of times they have difficulty saying no to people. And so because of that, because they don't want to say no, then that leaves such a small window because they're constantly piling things onto their calendar, onto their to do list without removing anything. And so I always like to make this kind of metaphorical image of if your calendar was a closet and you're constantly adding more and more clothes and more and more shoes, but you're not removing anything. Eventually, it's just gonna come crashing down, you know, and you're not gonna be able to find what you're looking for. And that is uh, that's a path that a two who's unhealthy, that isn't aware could fall, could start to go down because of their you know, of their giving nature. Yeah. Um. And it's almost like when we do that, we end up giving a little bit less to each person, right because we're giving just a little bit to a lot of people instead of getting to give a lot to just a few. Yes, absolutely absolutely, um. And I and I you know, I've worked I've worked with a lot of twos again, and you're not changing who people are, But it's just redefining your boundaries and learning some language and how to put some margin in your life where you need it. I love that. What about our three? So my husband's a three and so I've done a lot of work analyzing threes over the years. Um, so we love our threes. That threes are known as the achiever and they are very driven people. There's a lot of threes in leadership. Threes are really one of the few types on anygram that can multitask. Well, I've always talk about it's really not healthy to multitask. It's not good. My husband is notorious for having multiple screens on at the same time, working on a presentation while watching a basketball game and something else going on. And maybe that's partially his a d D, but a lot of it. I really think like I have to be focused in on one thing at a time, and he actually thrives really well with multiple things going on. So that's kind of like a superpower for three. I feel like, UM, because threes are very image conscious and they define themselves by the work that they do. UM from a time perspective, from a calendar clutter perspective, I think threes really need to be mindful of that whole kind of workaholic. And even if you are somebody that you know, I don't know what your core demographic is, but a lot of people that listen to my show, you know, there are some people stay at home moms and they just throw themselves into that. So even if you're not working outside of the home, whether you're working outside or inside the home, you can identify if you are a mom and you're like, that's my identity, you can go all in a hut and the same if you are an entrepreneur, or you work in corporate America or fill in the blank. So I think threes really just need to be mindful of being able to UM, to be aware and have to work towards setting those boundaries. And that might mean I'm putting my phone or my computer away, or I'm logging off, logging off and putting it out of office reply or whatever you're doing to really set those parameters because you want to do these things, you want to constantly be working UM. And so that's something with the threes. One of the things Another thing that I find very interesting is threes, and I think this has to do with a lot of that whole perception of they want to be perceived as like having it all together. Every single three that I've ever spoken with, and I'm sure there are ones out there that disagree, because there's we all know that there's spectrums within each type. They almost get a physical aversion to clutter, Like when they see a cluttered space, it actually like stresses them out. They could feel like they're you know, their neck tighten and the hair stand up. They don't like it, and it causes a lot of anxiety. So what will happen is a lot of times threes will put things away without intention, just to clear the space. And so what happens is down the road when you're looking. And I always talk about organization is about the ease of retrieval, not the act of putting it away. And so that was constantly a battle in my home. Specifically is my husband would see something out of place and instead of saying, excuse me sorry about that, instead of taking that extra step to either put it where it belongs or ask, he would just shove it a drawer or a closet or whatever, and then when we needed it, I didn't know where it was. So I didn't understand that he was that that was really anxiety producing. I just thought he was being annoying. And so it allows us too, now that I understand the Instagram, we can have conversations prior an approach it because we now have language. It's interesting too to hear you say that because I think about like a lot of my friends or threes, and they have really like beautiful homes, but usually there's like one room or one closet that is really messy and it's like almost like I think of that like putting it away things like they just kind of, well, we can hide it in here. Oh yeah, it becomes your dirty little secret. And and I think any type can have that. But there are certain types that I and I talked about it being like and we'll get to this, they're like what I call clutter blind, Like they can just walk past it and not say it. You know, you can walk. There are certain people that can just walk past a sink full of dishes or a load of you know, laundry on the floor, or just unfolded laundry in the basket and not bother them. Like my husband, we call him laundry loving Josh. It's like he's a because he has to do and I and I said to him years ago, I have to prioritize certain things. And if the laundry, I'm not having it on the floor. But if I have a load of laundry that's unfolded in a basket for a couple of hours, I'm not talking weeks, I'm talking you know, then that's fine for me. But for him, it's got to get washed, change from washer to dryer, too folded to put away all in my shot and I'm like, that's on you, bro, that's a you problem. So he kind of took that over because it was stressing him out. And I'm like, if if this is a pain point for you, then you need to solve the problem because you can't put that pressure on me. But I think a lot of times in relationships with people, and this is where the Anagraham becomes such a powerful tool. Whether you're talking about organization or not, but just in relationships, because um, I was just like, why are you being such a control freaquent the laundry, you know, and and looking at the laundry as the problem when it really isn't about the laundry. It was about something bigger. Oh my gosh, I could linger on that. Um. But the fours, you're gonna kill me? And so okay, okay, so four and my daughter is a four. So again a lot of experience with fours, and um, fours are known as the romantic or the individualist, and fours want to be unique and they are your stereotypical what you would think of as a as an artist or musician or your creatives. That's kind of what that you would conjure up and fours feel all the fields and they, like I say, my my daughter specifically, like her baseline is melancholy, Like that's good her, Like she's happy in the melancholy um. And when it comes to clutter and organization she struggles a lot with and again without getting to force, tend to struggle when it comes to productive doing so they're very feeling dominant and that's why they're great creatives. But for her, time management has always been an area that she struggled with, and so having to put in strategies for your fours, whether it's calendar reminders, alarms, checklists, you know, accountability partners, coaches, whatever it is to help you stay on board is really really critical. For for um. I've also seen, and again speaking a lot from personal experience, forced tend to struggle with emotional clutter because again things, things have feelings, things have meaning, and so everything is very deep with my daughter, Like everything is deep, Like it's funny because I wanted that's a four and one that's a nine, and my nine is like it's not that deep, and my four is like everything is deep, Like they're com flee and opposite ends in the spectrum and so you know, working through different strategies and allowing her the space. And this is I think the really big thing for fours. And I learned this through trial and error, giving fours this space to work through their process, to go through the down memory like I'm gonna go down memory lane, I'm gonna remember what this T shirt meant me in the concert I was at when I got it, and all these things, and then I can let it go. And as opposed to other types that are quicker decision makers, you know your threes, your eight that can easily say yep, I'm done, move on. But understanding that so for me as a professional organizer, I know, if I'm working with somebody who is a four, I'm going to a lot more time to do a specific job because they need to work through that process at their pace, and me being there can help keep them on track so that they don't spiral off. But I'm not rushing them, so that they still feel like they're empowered and they're in control of going through it. They just have to take a little bit more of a meandering path to get there. Your hair is completely unique and products that address its specific needs. That's where function of beauty comes in. Function of Beauty is the world's first fully customizable hair care that creates individually filled shampoo's, conditioners, styling, and treatment formulas based on your hair now and where you want it to go. 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Go to Function of Beauty dot com slash e graham to let them know you heard about it from our show and to get off your first order. That's function of beauty dot com Slash E Graham to take your hair quiz and save on your first order. Thank you Functional Beauty for supporting the podcast. I think that is so brilliant because when I often talk about how four's love to linger and like, lingering is part of the thing that brings the pleasure into the experience, and they're very pleasure driven, so it makes complete sense that it's like, let's give them more time for this process. Yeah, and that's why. And again because four's intuitively are not always the best with managing their time. And I know again I'm speaking like my daughter doesn't really have a concept of how long something's going to take her. Like she'll be like this is gonna take five minutes and it's like two hours later. So being able to put some some boundaries and parameters of saying, Okay, this is I'm gonna I'm gonna a lot this and out of time to do it, and then the good news is if you get it done quicker than you know, you have more time to do something else. Um. But I think that's a really it's really important And again, working because a lot of my spaces with working with other professional organizers. And that's why I think the work that I'm doing is so important for other people that are in whether it's teachers or parents or therapists, to just look at this because this whole clutter organization piece is such a part of everybody's life, and knowing how to get through the strategy is supposed to forcing people to white knuckle their way through it and then become opposed to it because it becomes painful or counterintuitive. Um, is not what we want. So just understanding allows you to have the grace and the insight into how to resonate with each type. Yeah, and for those two threason four is like to take the shame out of the game out of it, Like if it's like, oh, we're looking at this from individual perspectives, there's no wrong or right way. You can't fail at this. There's no shame in the way that it's been so far like that to me feels so freeing and accepting and would and ultimately therefore incentivizing absolutely absolutely, Okay, should we move on to our fives? So fives are always a tricky one for me. So fives are known as the observers um or the investigators, and fives are you're very analytical people, and um, my dad, both my parents have since passed away, but I suspect my mom was a two and I suspect my dad was a five, So I'm kind of going with that. So I usually have like my dad's avatar in my head when I talked about fives. But fives are they like to have a lot of information, and they also are very protective of their time. Um Again, as we know, when it comes to this time continuum, fives have a very limited measure of time, and whether they can articulate that or not, I think five's intuitively no, I have to be really ruthless with how I'm spending my time and what I'm and my energy because at some point I'm gonna like deplete. And even if they don't have the language articulated, I think somewhere deep inside they know that. And so when I'm working with the five, I know that I want to be very clear, and I'm a big communicator to begin with. But I think five's really really like having the information, and they like to feel like they're equipped of knowing what they're going into where fives can run into problems a couple of places, similar to the ones that are going to constantly be like trying to redo things because I want to perfect it and they want to get it right before they execute. Fives will continue to research and research and research and research before they execute. So it's their motivation is different. But on the surface they can both be procrastinators for different reasons. And so just finally pulling the trigger for five and just saying just go out there and do it is a big thing um because I find, especially when it comes to getting rid of things, fives struggle with emotional clutter because they want to like, what if I'm going to need this again, differently than a six will get to them next. But it's almost like almost like I'm gonna stockpilot for like a bunker, you know, like I might need this, so I'm going to start to like, you know, collect all of these things because when you know, you never know. Like I'll use the pandemic pandemic as an example. Your fives are the first one to stockpile the toilet paper because they want to hold onto it. They don't want to have to go back to the store. They want to just have it and they will give them security, and so they would hold onto things, and so fives, although they don't necessarily have this sentimental getting rid of emotional clutter the way a two would have sentimental, there's almost like a fear based of this is going to tap my resources, So I just need to hang on to this. I never know what I'm going to use it, or I can repurpose this broken thing into something else, yes, and that like I can spend the next weeks or months or years learning how to fix this thing myself. Yes, yes, exactly where you would be like you could just go buy it and it would save you so much time and in the end all of this like it's going to cost you more in time and money and resources to try to tinker and fix it then just go out and replace it. But a five it will air on the you know, on the former and and try to just hold onto things. So that's very commonplace for your fives. That's so good. So six, as you said, they have like some similarities, but they're different. So I mean, obviously they share a wing um, but they also the fear. So the sixes are the loyalists and there's fear is a very underlying theme for the sixes, and so especially when it comes to clutter an organization, fear is one of the big proponents that I see over and over again, whether it's fear of making a mistake or fear of hurting some of these feelings, or fear of the what if that unknown that like what if I need it? What if this happens? That just what if dot dot dot? You know that to me is something that I see a lot an organization um or in the decluttering editing process with people that what if, and that tends to also be a common theme with sixes. I'm at least your phobic sixes, and so sixes will also Another thing about sixes is I find that they doubt themselves a lot, and so when I talk with or I work with sixes, they're the people that like to have somebody in authority giving them permission to release the thing, giving them. Am I on the right path? And you could fill in the blank. This could be for a personal trainer, this could be for something else, but it's specifically in my space. You might know that you really should get rid of this because you haven't worn it in six years and you're probably never gonna wear because it's out of style and it wasn't you know, worth it. But until someone says, yeah, I agree with you, or it's okay, that's when I see the sixes start to make progress. And once they and they can build up that muscle on their own, but it's getting that reinforcement and that validation that it's okay they can trust themselves like that. I'm sorry, Oh go ahead. I was just gonna say almost like that um sense of like I can give you the certainty, like I can say, like, yes, for sure, this is the right thing to do. Yes, absolutely. And so when I was talking about like the five Colter pitfalls earlier, and I talked about that indecision pile or you know, I called that pile in decision of I don't know what to do, so I'm not going to do anything. I could see that a lot with sixes because they're like, I'm not really sure, And it could be something as benign as the mail. You get something in the mail and you're like, I don't know if I should keep this or not. Do I need to file this? Is this something that I'm gonna need I don't know, So I'm just gonna put it over here and that way I can't be wrong. I'm just gonna put over here. But before you know it, this you know, indecision pile is you know, a mile long and causing you stress every time you walk in the door. And so again, I find one of the great strategies for six is is getting an accountability partner. And it doesn't have to be somebody that you're paying. I mean not everybody's in position to pay somebody or but even if it's a friend, a spouse, even you know, your kid, just to say I'm going to have this person. I want to do this. I'm going to start small. I'm going to start to build this habit in these routines and getting that outer accountability to help you stay on track. M so good. I'm nervous. I'm nervous. I'm coming out because now I get not talk about you, and I don't want to talk about you, so to say, read my mail. So yeah, I can take it all right. So the sevens are the enthusiasts. You want to tell everybody a little bit about yourself. You can say I I you're your on point and I on point. Okay, I'm like, I can you know, like I feel like I'm out of place talking about you. Um no, you're good. So your your sevens are they are like I said, they're the life of the party. They are always there like me and I can relate to this a very future oriented people, so are always looking at what's next, what's ahead, and so they tend to operate in this kind of healthier range of emotion. Um so where I said, like my daughter who's a four who likes the melancholy and resonates really well, there you know your fours, I mean, sorry, your sevens are not that they're always happy, go lucky, but there I kind of find like your sevens are your half glass full people. All the sevens in my world, like even when life is throwing them a curveball at the end of the day, their approach is still a very glass half full, which is such a noble, wonderful quality about your sevens. The thing with sevens is there's a lot of shiny objects syndrome. Because sevens like change. They like new things and not new like I have to, like I want to try new things. I want to new experiences. So they when it comes to the clutter and organization, I will see sevens accumulate stuff relating to that. So let's just say you were into beer making, and then you were into tennis, and then you were into candle making. You know, you're getting there's all kinds of things that come with that thing that you're interested in. UM. Or maybe it's I'm researching for a trip and I'm spending all my time doing all this research for this, and then before you know what, you're onto the next thing. So there's always things that are piling up when it comes to the organization and clutter, and where sevens have to be really mindful of is kind of going through that cycle of thinning out and removing the stuff that they're no longer using or that's serving them. That's one thing I've noticed about the sevens. Oh my gosh, you nailed it. Did I remember that? I'm feeling very stressed. No, it's good. And it's nice to hear you describe it, because I think they're used to. You know, people who listen they hear me describe these types all the time. So UM, different language can be really opening, you know. Can I'm glad you did UM, But with yeah, even yes with hobbies for me. And also sometimes I will decide, like I'm going to be the kind of person who keeps a bill folder, and I'm going to make this beautiful notebook and it's going to have all of my information for my bills and my savings goals in it. And then I do it for like one month, and then it just sits on my shelf and now I have this weird folder that sits on my shelf for I get it. Listen, I get it. I have a seven wings, so a lot of what you know, I've definitely had very seven traits in my life. The other thing about sevens is they're fun. They're adventurous people. They like to go and do and explore and like live life. And that's an awesome quality and at the end of the day, it doesn't always have to be. But a lot of organization strategies require the mundane, and that's something that a seven would rather spend their time doing something fun. And so a lot of times I'll see seven struggle because they you know, they're working all the time, and then they're like, Okay, I'm going to go on a vacation and so all the things that at home that have been piling up because they've been busy at work. Then they go, then they go from work to this vacation, and then they come home from this amazing vacation, and then then they walk in and then they're staring down the barrel of all the stuff that was waiting for them when they left, and then they feel stressed and overwhelmed because then they feel like there's this catchup. So, you know, like the thought of a staycation for seven is like want, want wat you know where I'm like, oh, let me use this time to catch up so that I can feel like, um, ahead of the eight ball or sevens like are you kidding me? I'm going snowboarding or I'm going to do this? And I think it could be a both and but it's a batter of finding that balance. And if sevens aren't aware, they're they're constantly doing the fun and part of adult ing is figuring out a healthy way to balance the fund with the mundane. Mm hmm. Yeah. I even like used to stay out all day, Like I would wake up at like six in the morning, I'd leave my house and I would come home at midnight. Yes, and then when do you clean if you are only home when you sleep. Total A. Yes, I see that. That that's a great example you all right, So I could talk about I could, I could self deprecate on eights, but there's a lot of great things about it. Eight so um so eights are known as the challenger. They are the champion of the underdog that tell it like it is um person that does not realize how big they are in the room and us as scary and intimidating or off putting to a lot of people. Um. And that was really sad for me when I learned that, because that was never my intent. Um. And I try to explain that to people, but it is something that I have to be really really mindful of because it's just my natural like way to go in there and not try to be the center of attention. But you just you kind of command your space. And I mean in a conceited way. Like I said, it's not always a good thing, but you know, there's certain types that come in and they just the leaders and they are seen as the leader and that is kind of just where you where you fall in life. And it searched me really well. But as a child eight I was absolutely misunderstood, and we won't have a therapy session. But I definitely, you know, I wish I knew the angiogram when my kids were little, because I would have been a much healthier parent. Um A. I would have understood myself and how I came across to others better, and I also would have understand my children and their motivations better. So hopefully now I've apologized enough, maybe with enough therapy, they'll eventually they'll be okay. But the eights are, like I said, their leaders. Um A lot of entrepreneurs are eight and because of such, they get things done, and so time can be their greatest asset or they're big is pitfall, depending on how they're using it. I juggle a lot of things, like I run a business, I was a very involved mom, I'm I run a charity event. I you know, I'm involved in a lot of different things. But I have been I have to be ruthless with my time, like time blocking is my jam, like I because otherwise I won't get stuff done because if I'm not super uber intentional with whether it's this is the time of day that I focus in on this or this is the day that I do this or allocate to this. I will just walk around having one of those days where I'm like, I don't know what I did all day so and I think every type can relate to that on some level, but for me, as an eight, I find that being very very specific and intentional with my time is really really important. Um I make decisions quickly. Eights typically make decisions quickly, which is great when it comes to clutter an organization because I don't really bring emotion into it. It's the least access center that for them are feelings, and in the organizational space, that's probably a help that more than hindreds because I can apply action and logic to my decision making rather than feelings. As a professional organizer, I have to be very mindful that not everybody sees the world through my lens and holding space for the people that do have that emotional attachment. And I will say having a daughter who's a four was a great training ground for me as I worked with clients to be able to learn that because you know, I used to joke again way before you the Instagram that it was poetic justice that I had a kid who thought that every scrap of paper had feelings. You know, there'd be like a piece of yarn that she picked up off the playground and she'd be like, but mom, he needs a friend, and I will go not to be kidding me, you know. Um, but those are like the really examples. UM. So I think eight superpower when it comes to clutter and organization is quick decision making, um, not bringing too much emotion into it, really being able to be ruthless with their time. I think these are all wonderful qualities. I think where it's need to be careful is again being aware of how they come across to other people. UM. That's huge, and especially whether you're in a parenting or you're in a leadership role of any type it could be in work, um or whatever that the other that you have enough space and grace for the people that are not your fellow eights, because I think there's a big disconnect and that's where a lot of the kind of misunderstanding of where people's intentions are. UM. But at the end of the day, you know, we're good people with big, kind hearts, and in my healthiest had space you know, I look a lot like a two and that's really where I kind of strive to be. Yeah, I think people underestimate how much love is behind the eight strength, Like how much of that is like protectiveness and caregiving? It is, it really is. And I always said, like again, way before I knew the Instagram, I was like, you want me in your corner, like trust me, you want me in your corner, Like I will be your champion for life, but don't cross me. Just kidding um, all right, So we can wrap up with the Nines, the ever loving, peacemaking Nines who I love, and my daughter's and nine. And it's interesting because you know, at the top of the episode when I said, I knew what you asked me, and I said, I identified my number right away, or my type right away. My daughter, who's twenty one now, she thought she was a two, then she thought she was a sex and she's like, no, I'm really a nine. So you know, for some types, and you said this, and I know your own journey you were missed, you know, typed and whatnot. But I think on the surface, there are certain types that can kind of look similar on the outside, but when you really get down to it's to their core. She's definitely a nine. And your Nines, Like I said, they are as much as your eights thrive on conflict and look at conflict as a mode of communication. Nines shy away from conflict and they see even a tough conversation is conflict. So for me, I'm like, I'm just having a conversation, and she's like, oh my gosh, this is so aggressive. So I think again, understand that communication style. And so um nines also struggle in the world of organization with prioritizing. So if I laid out like five things that need to get done, my nine daughter will be like, okay, well, let me just pick what's right in front of me, as opposed to really being able to decipher from a strategic standpoint, this is really what needs to get done now. Um Nines are also master procrastinators because they're just chill people. And so when I was talking earlier about the clutter blind like it's fine, it doesn't matter, Like so there's dishes in the sink or there's clothes on the floor, like I'll get to it later, It'll be fine. So it just doesn't bother her. And that's her, you know again, she's my avatar right now. But even I have clients that I work with that are nine and they just it does doesn't stust it that I have one client that I've worked with for years and the husbands at three and the wife is a nine, and I work with them way before I knew the anagram, and I just understood, you know, there are certain triggers that were different. I didn't have anagram language. But then when I started to understand the anagram, I was working with them and uncovered that he's a three and she's a nine. And I'm like, this makes perfect sense. So just now gave me another set of language to use and going, now I understand this, and this is you know, why this is important to her and not important to him, or vice versa. And so I think for nines, um, it's just really again putting in those guardrails like you would with a four, like knowing, Okay, I'm gonna have to set a time, or I'm gonna have to set a check or create a checklist or do some things because I might not intuitively be super um motivated to jump up and tackle this project, which is not my thing, you know. Um, Nines also I think underestimate their own importance. So it's like, why does it matter if I do it? Because they don't necessarily feel they are seeing, even though that's their own view, like the world the world sees them, but they don't feel seen, and so they don't really feel like if they're doing it or not matters. And so getting them to understand like it does matter, and it does you do and you matter, you know, is kind of the bigger overarching I think things for nine but when it comes to clutter and organization, the good news is they don't sweat the small stuff. And again it's nine times out of ten it is stuff, and I don't like to see the control that stuff has over people. Um, so it's good that they can let things roll off their back. The bad news is because they can let things go, things can then pile up and then eventually everybody has a breaking point, and you know you don't want that to happen for the nines. Yeah, oh my gosh, it's so good anything lingering. I feel like we cover these types so well. But if you all are like, I want more information again. Laurie's website is linked below, so you can definitely go download the guide read more about it. Grab her when it comes out. Um, this was so so good, Loriie, oh, thank you. I know sometimes I was like, am I gonna get too geeky? But I'm like, we got any grand people here, so hopefully I'm not going off the rails. Oh there there, I know they're they're here for it. Yeah. Well, um, I'm sorry, go ahead, Oh you can go. I was just gonna say yeah anything. Um. I just started an Instagram handle specifically for anagram and clutter um, so we're just now building it. But if anybody wants to go there and um, just follow along and I'll be posting their different connection points and little tippets that I'm pulling from the bak and um. I would love your community to start to follow along and help me kind of build that part of my business, because I think this is such a really useful tool for communication and for people specifically and understanding, you know, how they can not like clutter by such a big thing in their lives. I cannot wait to follow that myself. I'm looking forward to it. Are you ready for rapid fire questions? I'm so ready bring it, okay, d D. The first book that comes to mind Present over perfect m h good one a favorite song, Oh, my gosh, favorite song Landslide Stephen Next or Flue with Mac Love. Okay. Something you wish people knew about you? Oh my gosh, that I really do have a soft center. I don't just have a hard candy shell. Good your dream day? What are you doing? Oh easy, I am sitting on a beach with a book and a cocktail. Yeah wait wait what's your cocktail? Well, it depends on the season, but I'm a Vaca girl and I'm like a purist, so like, just give me a Voca in club with like a fresh lemon, and I'm one. I love it. Your final meal, what are you eating? Pizza? Pepperoni pizza like New York style or like dish? Yeah? No, no, no, no, that's a good, very good question. No East I'm an East Coast girl, and I like a crisp ear doesn't have to be a super thin crust, but yeah, I don't want it to be really doughey mm hmm same. You're um. Some food for thoughts. Something you hope people walk away thinking about today, that your stuff doesn't define you, and that whatever patterns that you've developed throughout your life, whether it's stuff that you learned from childhood or just habits that you've adapted into adulthood. You can change the narrative. I've worked with people who are adults that were set in their ways of doing things, and if you want to make change, there are resources out there. And obviously this goes for anything, but specifically when it comes to cluttering, organization, and um, you can. It's never too late to start. Oh my gosh, I love that, Lori. It was so good having you on the show. Thank you for taking your time to do this and give us such good content. Well, thank you. I am honored to be able to share this with you and your community.