Does Elon Musk consider all of his companies to be one giant company? That’s something that comes up in today’s episode as host David, Dana and Max consider a recent report on Tesla potentially giving up future revenue in exchange for access to Musk’s artificial intelligence startup, xAI access. That brings up corporate governance issues.
And then, Dana speaks to New York Times reporter Kirsten Grind about a story she wrote on Musk’s plans regarding Mars.
I'm just like, would like to not be dead when by the time we go to Mars. That's my aspiration here. So if it's taking us eighteen years just to get ready to do the first people to orbit, we've better improve our rate of innovation or you know, based on past trends, I am definitely going to be dead before from ours.
Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet.
More than half the satellites in space are owned and controlled by one man.
Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate.
He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will be different.
He'll vote Republican. There is a reason the US government is so reliant on him.
Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing.
Anything he does, he's fascinating people.
Welcome to Elan Ing Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Musk. It's Tuesday, September tenth. I'm your host, David Popadopolis. Today we're going to talk about a report that Elon is apparently planning a deal between Xai and Tesla, wherein the carmaker will get access to some of Xai's technology and resources and Xai will get lots of cash that it very desperately needs. Now, it's not the first time that the boundaries between Elon's companies have been blurred, and it most certainly won't be the last. We're going to dive into the ramifications of all that, and then we're gonna be taken to Mars by our co host Dana Hall and New York Times reporter Kirsten grind who will talk all about Musk's grand interplanetary dreams. So we're gonna get right into it with our regulars. Dana, Hello, Hey David and Max Schafkin. Max, Hey, David, how you guys doing so okay? So Dana, tell us a bit about this deal that Tesla is apparently striking with Xai, as reported by our colleagues over at the Wall Street Journal.
Well, to be clear, I don't think there's a deal yet. So over the weekend, The Wall Street Journal reported that x dot Ai, which is one of Elon's six companies, the newest. The startup, discussed a deal where it would get revenue from Tesla and it would help develop features for Tesla, like a serie voice assistant for the cars and maybe the software for optimists the robot, and the story kind of read to me like someone had gotten hold of a pitch deck to x dot ai and that this was a pitch to x dot ai investors. But then Musk like kind of refuted the story in part and said, you know, we don't need to license the software, and like, yeah, my company has all talked to each other, but there's not really like a deal in place. So it's hard to know exactly.
What's going on as that the journal is quote talking nonsense. But to your point, it does seem like the journal sourcing is pretty good here. So Tesla is gonna maybe strike a deal with XII to help develop full self driving and according to the piece, it could even be a fifty to fifty revenue split between Tesla and XAI. Seems a little generous for XAI.
I mean, it seems wild. The whole thing here is that self driving is going to be this huge revenue generator for Tesla. Tesla has been spending and has said it continues is going to spend you know, huge sums of money that you know, building data centers and hiring software developers, and the idea that the company would give you know, half of what is projected to be. Now you can quibble with those projections, or more than quibble, you know, like a huge revenue stream. It's it's nuts. It's going to be read at least by some investors, the grumpy Tesla investors, as a bailout.
Or if not a bailout, at least a means to help x AI, you know, make the kind of investments it needs to make. AI is a very capital intensive industry, is it not.
If we take the journals reporting seriously, which I do. This is actually the second sort of way that Elon Musk has floated, sharing revenue from Tesla, which has a ton of cash back to x dot Ai, which needs cash because, as you say, you know, buying these GPUs, these incredibly expensive graphics chips which are necessary to train AI algorithms, costs a lot of money. And right now there's no revenue. X AI has no revenue.
Cranking out revenue.
I mean they're they're including this as a feature for Twitter, you know, Twitter premium subscribers. I don't know how important it is. I don't know what percentage of Twitter premium subscribers are there because of GROC. I know, our our producer Magnus definitely is, but I think I don't there are questions.
I don't know that that's a huge revenue stream. But Dana that thought that this, you know, reeks a bit of a bailout of some sorts, or certainly Musk's the cash cow of his empire, which is Tesla helping a weaker part of the constellation. It brings back to mind for me, at least, I think he plunked down, or Tesla punk down two point six billion dollars into Solar City, which at the time was struggling. And I don't know. You tell me how big a part of Tesla's business today is the solar business.
Well, the solar business is pretty minuscule. The big driver of the energy part of the business is the megapack and selling massive batteries to like utilities. But to be clear, Solar City was always part of the constellation. Is Musk found Yeah, Musk founded the company with his cousins. His cousins nominally ran it, but let's be honest, Musk was the chairman of the board, the largest shareholder, and when he bought them it was because he was bailing out himself. And the same kind of crew of people that have been on all of Elon's boards were also on the Tesla City board. So it was a bailout of himself and he sort of made, you know, made this big thing of showing off the solar roof as he was trying to get the deal approved. But like Musk has floated a Tesla AI tie up before, Like Max, I don't I forget if it was a poll or if it was just like a just asking question, should I should I go to the Tesla board and ask them to invest five billion dollars in ex dot AI And like it sounds like the board. I'm so, I'm sure there have been board meetings all summer about this, and maybe this pitch deck is like we just don't know what form it is yet. But I think the journal, I mean I take the journal story really seriously and it's interesting always. It's always interesting to me, Like when Musk chooses to push back on stories, it's there's usually a threat, there's usually truth there, and he's very strety.
Well.
Also he will deny.
He will issue these sweeping, extremely muscular denials talk and when it comes down to it, the truth is it is a denial, but it's maybe it isn't a licensing deal, you know, like like he's acting like the journal is completely off base. It's very possible that the journals that the journal sources have one or two details wrong, but the gist of the story is correct.
Max, I want to go back and linger for a second here on this thought about the this you know, inter empire self dealing in the Musk universe. The whole thing is just seems a little dangerous.
There are already lawsuits over Like I said, what what makes this so weird? The idea that Tesla would pay Xai money is that there are already lawsuits from Tesla shareholders suggesting that there's a problem that these that the the fact that x Ai is, you know, poaching employees or hiring at least Tesla employees, you know, that it's already essentially draining value out of this publicly traded company that, yes, Elon Musk controls, Yes he has a huge amount of equity, but he's not the majority shareholder. They are public, there are pension funds and so on, and they're and the contention would be that they're basically pulling money out of this publicly traded concern, but the most you know, valuable company in Elon Musks Empire and putting it into this kind of fatish, you know AI play that has really sketchy prospects, a lot of talk, but not a ton of actual progress. And it's one that you know, Elon Musk essentially has an enormous equity stake, So it's it really feels, it feels super questionable from a sort of conventional, you know, good governance perspective, which of course is not a perspective Elon cares about.
And I'm also curious. I mean, xtut ai is pretty small. I think the last time we talked to our colleague Kurt Wagner, they've got maybe like thirty five employees. Maybe they've grown a little bit since then, but xi X dot ai is tiny. So like, where are they located? Are these employees working out of like Tesla office in Palo Alto. I'm not sure where these people are, heused, but I would not be surprised if they've got like a corner of an office somewhere.
That's like, well, that's amazing. By the way, if they have as few as thirty five employees according to that journal, story. The company also has evaluation of twenty four billion dollars, so you're almost about a billion evaluation of a billion dollars per employee. That's pretty good. Max. Back to your point on the they're the governance issue, and then there's also just the issue of is it just good business for these individual companies? Right in a world in which must own one hundred percent of Tesla and one hundred percent of Xai, what he can do whatever the hell he wants, and if he wants to move resources around from one to the other, it's fine. But that, as you're saying, is not the case here. So when you are draining resources from one company, Tesla, that is publicly traded and has all sorts of shareholders all over the world, yeah, you are setting yourself up for eventually legal trouble. And you know, as you said, there already is a lawsuit that's been filed, and I suspect if this deal really does go through those you know, those legal that legal peril he is in is only going to be amped up.
There.
Also, then is just the issue of is it just good business right it? Is it good business for Tesla, and is it good business for Xai? So I ask you, Dana, what would be the glass half full positive take on this transaction for the companies, the client shareholders in Elon just that there's value.
Add that, you know, Tesla will be able to realize it's full self driving dreams and this like sort of the cabin experience faster if they somehow partner with x dot ai to like use their their Grock training to I don't know, help help the cars in some way, but I don't fully I don't fully get it, but I think that you have to remember that investors who are all in on Musk, and there are several like Ron Baron who are like long time I'm Tesla's shareholders. They're in it because he is in so many industries and they see this as a positive and they're not upset about this. They actually are for it. And I would not be surprised if the board gave him the green light and if shareholders approved it, if it actually even went to a shareholder vote. You know, Musk has been kind of shuffling the cards around among his companies and his empire like the entire time he's been in business, and a lot of people have gotten very wealthy because of that, and so I just would push back against this idea that, oh, this is another legal fiasco in peril. I think that he has support.
I mean I think there are two different things. There's one support from the board is one thing. Support from all of your shareholders. I mean again, we already do have a lawsuit that's been filed.
Yeah, But so what like, I'm sorry, there are like there are lawyers who will file a lawsuit and they will find a pension fund to be the nominal plainiff. They sue Elon all the time. It's a serious lawsuit. But I'm saying, like, you've got to look at the shareholder base of of Tesla and these longtime shareholders, these are the same people who just approved his pay package. Yet again, like he has support from a significant number of shareholders.
What Dan is saying is like they're going to take this loss and put in a big stack of other lawsuits and ignore it. Yeah, And also that yes, there are shareholders are mad, and those shareholders of course can bring litigation. But the majority of Tesla's shareholders and we know this because there was this vote on pay if you say to them, it is outrageous that Elon Musk is running all of these companies like one giant conglomerate, Like how you know, how could he? They're going to say, yeah, he is, and we love it. That's the That is a lot of the I mean, and I think that the business case there is very shaky. The business case if you really, if you ask them what it is, it's basically like Elon Musk is a genius. This is how he wants to do it. Therefore it must be great. I don't think the logic there is super solid, but I think the idea that shareholders for the most part are on board with this is true.
What's the stock done year to date?
It's it's I mean, I can't remember year to date, but it hasn't been performed particularly well recently.
No, So I guess my point to the two of you would be that's fine. That's the universe, right, those who are part of that cult of Elon and whatever he does, we say amen, and we love the stock and we're going to own the stock from that's a shrinking universe, I mean, And they are indeed more passionate and more fanatical than ever. But you know, the tape don't lie, and the stock from its peak is way down.
I think that some of these shareholders who are approving these things and we're sort of going along with it, are doing so and we talked about this with the pay package, partly because they feel that if they don't that even even a sort of shaky Tesla stock right now is overvalued relative to what the actual business is, the actual car company business. Again, I'm not saying it makes sense to me. I'm not saying it's logical. But you got to keep Elon Musk happy. We've sort of bet on Elon Musk. We're all in on Elon Musk. The other thing is, I will say, like if you if you squint, you got to come up with a business case. I think the business case is something like these large language models are a genuine breakthrough. They are changing everything. You know, open AI could it could be a god. It could, it could. It could change the world forever. And we Tesla will need to partner if we want to be a state of the art AI company, we will need a large language model. Hey look, here's a larger language model. And luckily there are some synergies because because our CEO happens to know some of the people who work there, and so again I don't find it super persuasive, but I think some version of that is probably what they're going to tell.
Themselves and have happened.
The last thing. Startups lie all the time, like startups that are like pitching investors. Dana hinted that this could have come in an investor pitch. They don't always tell like the most honest story, like they're going to present the like best case scenario. So like, just because some people are saying to some investors there's going to be a fifty to fifty split, doesn't necessarily mean that is the real number.
You're saying it's going to be like ninety five to five.
I'm saying that would be closer to my bed.
Okay, very good. We will come back to this one. Max. We're gonna say goodbye to you. I'm done with you for today. I've had enough. Okay, fair enough, thanks for joining me.
My pleasure.
And Dana on the interconnectedness of everything in the Elon universe, there was a piece done recently by The New York Times as Kirsten grind in which she lays out fairly persuasively that ultimately every single thing or the vast bulk of the things that the companies in Musk's empire do are all about getting and colonizing Mars.
So there are like few byelines that kind of always give me anxiety when I see them, And one of them is Kirstin's. She's just like this great investigative reporter. She's worked at the Wall Street Journal, she recently joined the New York Times, and you know, the Musk news cycle moves so fast and furious. And in July she just did this big feature where she really drilled into like, Okay, what exactly are the Mars colony plans? Forget about the rocket that's going to take them there, like what are the plans for the civilization? And she just got some great details and it was a fascinating read. And I'd never met or talked to Kirsten before, but it was super fascinating to just chat with her about reporting and what it's like to report on Elon's companies and what she found out.
Yeah, I thought it was fantastic. I think our listeners are going to love it.
My well, thank you.
My big overarching takeaway was life on Mars seems a little bleak. I got no oxygen in lots of impossible burghers. Sounds like a hoot. Let's listen to the interview.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Oh, thanks so much for having me.
So Elon Musk has always been obsessed with colonizing Mar The whole point of SpaceX is to make life multiplanetary. But your tremendous July feature in the New York Times really makes it clear that there's been a shift towards civilization planning. So start from the beginning, like, how did you kind of get onto this particular rich and very illuminating vein of reporting.
Yeah, thanks Dana. So I have for a long time wanted to look deep into these Mars plans because, as you know, it's something that Elon is always talking about on X and speeches all of this. So I wanted to understand two things, like, first of all, how legit is this? And then second of all, we've heard a lot obviously about SpaceX sending rockets into space. That I wanted to know, is there actually plans for the city that we are allegedly all going to be living in? And sure enough I found out, yes, they are quietly designing and kind of testing some of these city plans at SpaceX as we speak. The thing is they can't really talk about it the way they talk about the rockets and starships for a variety of reasons, but one of the biggest ones is that they have a contract with NASA, and under that contract, Elon has to get to.
The Moon first.
So to kind of say, oh, we're spending all this time like designing cities.
That's not going to work.
Yeah, and what exactly did you learn about the city Because he's talked about the need to like terraform Mars for years, right, and like I always had this image that they were going to like I don't know, I was sort of imagining like terraniums or like bubbles, and then I was trying to figure out, like how are they going to breathe up they're and then terraforming Mars and Mars being this fixer up of a planet is something that Musk has consistently said for two decades. But it sounds like you got like deeper into actual designs and engineering for like what this civilization is going to look like.
So what I did? I approached it two ways. First of all, I did go back and listen to an enormous number of I won't even bore you with how many podcasts, appearances, X posts that he's written about.
There's a lot.
See, yeah's true.
Yes, so I have heard some of the terraforming stuff as well. Yes, But what I really wanted to do is talk to some of these SpaceX guys, right, which, as you know, is incredibly hard to do because it's very hard speaking to anyone at any of the Elon's companies or in his universe. But so what we spoke about the most when I reached people close to the company was I was really drilling down specifically on let's not talk about what the plan might be for terraforming and forty years or something like, what does he think is going to happen soon soon?
In quotes?
Right, and so there's time and there's Elon time.
Exactly well, and we should definitely talk about that. But what I learned was more about kind of the city plans that workers at SpaceX are kind of constantly updating based on ideas and plans coming in from throughout the universe of SpaceX, and so they have kind of an idea for how the cities will be laid out with a giant dome and domes around them. But what they're focusing on now is kind of how they would get food up there, or how they would handle medical emergencies or pro create, And so there's so many more details like I wish I had, but I don't, except to say this is kind of what they're like looking at right now.
So one of the.
Great details in your story is this idea of Starship as a kind of Noah's Arc, carrying plants and animals on this initial voyage, and then they get there, the residents build these greenhouses. And you wrote that SpaceX actually has a partnership with Impossible Foods to provide, which is this plant based alternative meat company, to provide the food not just in SpaceX's corporate cafeterias, but to test the products and maybe be like a protein source for Mars. Like what else did you learn about the Mars colony diet and how did you get on that great detail?
So I really wanted to understand.
I mean, I kept thinking about this in terms of if I was going to go to Mars with my family, what would we be doing there? So I kept asking about the food. To be honest, the food is one where I think they have not spent as much time on like they are thinking of like protein sources, like impossible foods, and how they would kind of start these series of greenhouses up there that we would all whoever goes out there would be drawing from eventually. But I just want to interject to say, like a lot of this is still going to take an enormous amount of time. I mean to get they would be bringing food and seeds and all of this in Starship, but then once you get to Mars, I mean, it's going to take a decade or more to really have greenhouses that are sustaining an entire population, right at least, that's what a lot of the experts were saying to me.
Did you get the sense that any of this civilization was going to be built underground because.
There is no Yes, the way I was kind of envisioning it is we would all be in these kind of smaller domes, but half of the habitat, if you will, would be kind of underground to protect from it, and then you would kind of come up into this little dome.
At least, that's how people were describing it to me.
That's amazing. One of the other wonderful things about your piece is that you kind of walked through how well. Mars is the sort of the grand vision that Elon has had for decades, but all of his other companies kind of play a role. The Boring Company could build tunnels, you know back in twenty eighteen when Shotwell told CNBC, I think the Boring Company could be the way that we house people on Mars.
That's right.
I mean, that is exactly why I actually wanted to pursue this, because sometimes I think when you look at what Elon Musk is doing, it can be confusing to be like, why is he in this area? Why is he in that area? And I just kept having people tell me, like the common link is Mars, like they can all add to his Mars plans. So the Boring Company, that's a great example. So the tunneling is of course what would need to be done on the surface of Mars to build the city and build these habitats Tesla. I mean the cyber truck that doesn't even take reporting. You can just look on the street and see that clearly he meant the cyber truck for Mars, right, although you could argue it works here and us too. The one that really surprised me because I was kind of puzzling over X Twitter and thinking, I don't really understand how that plays into the Mars plans, and a lot of people close to him I spoke to have been frustrated that X has taken away from time he is spending on Mars. But he has told people that the polls he runs on X and how he kind of asked should I reinstate this account or should I do this, and that he's thinking about, or at least this is what he's told people, how he could run a citizen led government on Mars, so taking out all the representatives, the senators, all of this and just kind of putting the vote to the people basically. So even X, he has that in mind for sure.
Right he wants to build a civilization that is self governed basically.
That's right, But I don't think I put it in the piece. So he is not He is hope that he will not have the only city on Mars. Right, He's kind of hoping down the line others, you know, other countries, other players will also kind of build civilizations up there. It's just he's the one that is kind of the most focused on it at the moment.
What is your latest understanding about the timeline, because it seems like with everything with Elon, like the timeline gets accelerated. And yeah, for those of us who have been covering him for a long time, he's often very late on his timeline. To his credit, he often does eventually meet these very aggressive timelines, but they're just very there's people that his companies talk about Elon time. But Mars, I mean, it seems like things are accelerating, like he used to talk like he wants does he want to be there? What? What's the latest ten He wants to be there in ten years.
So I was surprised about this because again I went back and looked at everything he had said. So back ten years ago, he was kind of giving this forty year kind of timeline for a civilization. So in his head, a civilization is there when you have a million people. So that timeline, that earlier timeline, is more kind of in line with what NASA is saying. However, in April, he gave a speech to a bunch of SpaceX employees in Boca Chica and said that he expects in twenty years we will have a million people living on Mars now. I have to tell you that I spoke to many experts for the story, and almost no.
One thought that was possible.
NASA doesn't even think they're going to land one person on Mars until like twenty forty. So the fact that we haven't even been there now, but he thinks that we might have a million people there in twenty years is pretty ambition, let's say.
Timeline.
Yeah, and even internally, here's the interesting thing. I asked a lot of these people about it. Do you guys really think that you're going to get there in twenty years? No one really believes that. They're like, like, you said that, that's Elon time. Hilariously, a couple people told me they really think he just said that to make them work harder. They call some of these drawings like a hype package to get them excited about the work at SpaceX, even though it's not gonna come to fruition in a really long time. So the timeline Elon's almost definitely well, I don't want to say almost definitely, but the chances of him getting to Mars are pretty high in twenty years.
I don't know. According to the experts.
So on the one hand, he's kind of accelerated the timeline, But on the other hand, he's always been pretty upfront about how hard it's going to be to actually do this, and he admits it's not going to be easy and that people are going to die traveling there, and that's why he does want to be on some of the first ships.
Honestly, a bunch of people probably won't die in the beginning. It's volunteers only.
How is that going to work? Volunteers only? Like, you sign up on X, Yeah, I'll go to Mars. Did you get any training? Where do they expect to get these million people from?
Oh my gosh, I know. I thought about this a lot too. So first I was asking the SpaceX workers like are you gonna go? Like, is there some VIP system where if you work at SpaceX you can sign up. I don't know about the VIP system, but definitely a lot of them want to go. And that was another thing I just heard so much about, is how much people join SpaceX for this Mars colonization plans.
I mean, we hear Elon.
Talk about it a lot, but to hear it from like the people on the ground floor they believe in this one thing I didn't get into, but which is important to this Who's gonna go thing is it's going to be expensive if he is lucky, and he has said he wants to get the cost down where per person it would basically be the cost of buying a house, not in San Francisco, buying a house.
Like a million dollar California house.
Yeah, like like think about like three hundred k or something.
That is like his ideal.
I have no idea if he's going to be able to get it down that much. So some of it would be really who can afford to go?
Right?
But that is also kind of a problem because you don't just want high end travelers.
And this is and this is like I'm sorry, I don't know enough about like orbits, but this is like a one way ticket, right, Isn't the whole problem with Mars that it's like really freaking far away, And like the way the orbits work is that like it's only close to Earth like once every I don't know, was it every two years? You can't you can't like go regular on a regular basis. It's every two years, right.
Totally totally real.
Yeah, And then you can't really come back. I mean, I guess if he was really able to get it like a taxi quote unquote. But even so, every two years takes nine months to get there. I mean, Mars is one hundred and forty million miles from Earth, right, So you can't just be like, oh, this sucks, I'm going to take an uber home like You're on Mars for two years.
Yeah right, and I'm thinking like with no protein, I'm just like a meg.
Protein.
Well, another question about the funding for all of this. You sort of very astutely noticed that during the Delaware Chancery court trial about Musk's pay package, he made it clear that part of the reason why he deserved and wanted this money was that it would help to fund the Mars ambitions. But why is that money so significant for Elon personally in terms of realizing this vision.
He basically and pretty much everyone around him, his friends Tesla board members talked about how the whole reason Elon collects any pay at Tesla or anywhere is to fund these Mars plans. So that is like his number one goal basically, So if we take him at what him and all those others are saying, yes, that is what he is planning to use that money for. And I don't know specifically how that money would be funneled. But you know, another thing, just back to the timeline for a second, Like a lot of I can't overstate. As I was talking to people, a lot of them feel like X. And it's funny because this story came out I think right around the time he was suddenly going full bore on the politics front, so I wasn't really asking people about the political angle. But everyone really thinks he's being too distracted and that he needs to focus.
More on Well.
It's funny because I think a lot of Tesla customers and employees would say same, would say the same thing about his lack of focus on Tesla, particularly since he bought X.
Yes.
When it comes to Mars, he's also talked about it could be an earth like planet. We could bring the life from Earth, and then we could extend life from Earth to Mars. The other thing that I'm super fascinated by is musks focus on fertility, and we've written a lot of stories about how he is funding fertility research at the University of Texas at Austin. He has at least twelve children, many of them by IVF. He is very much a pro natalist who's constantly worried about population collapse. And at first I thought, Okay, he's worried about population collapse because all capitalists like want to make sure that there are future consumers for their products, and fertility rates are declining in the United States and much of the West. But then I was wondering, maybe this is all just about Mars too, like he wants there to be more people for this new colony on this other planet. I haven't connected quite that far yet, but I mean, was there anything about his natalism, population collapse, fertility obsession in your discussions.
It's so funny you say that, because that is literally exactly what I went into this thinking. I was like, this is related to his fertility push here in the US, exactly the same thoughts. But then as I went down the road and I talked to more people and I heard him keep speaking about how kids wouldn't be on the first voyage, I sort of thought that through and I was like, his kids are going to be adults by then. I couldn't quite make the leap like you're saying, and no one was talking about. No one was relating it that way. What they were talking about is this potential to have a totally new speed she's on Mars, which is one thing that SpaceX is kind of basically researching right now, because we don't know if you can carry children in space right now. They haven't figured that out for sure.
What do you mean researching a new species?
That's a good question.
So they're not sorry, I shouldn't say they're not researching a new species. They're researching how we could procreate on Mars, basically. And so when I learned that, that's when I sort of was like, I don't know if this is totally related to what is happening with him on Earth and all his children, because it doesn't seem like he would be having all those children to carry to Mars. And no one said that to me.
So I think my last question is do you have any interest in going to Mars yourself? Let's just say your kids are grown, they're successfully launched, you're in the twilight of your years, you've won all the Journalis prizes, you're happy like this would be the last big adventure. Would you have any interest in going?
No, I am not going to be going to Mars. I am.
I totally appreciate why others want to go or go to the moon or go to space, but it's definitely never been one of my things.
I know, what about you.
Same, I'm fundamentally like an ocean person, Like I really like to be near water. It's not my preferred ecosystem. Like my preferred ecosystem is like Point Raise.
No, definitely, And you know, like I have thought about how crazy that would be to stand there and you're just surrounded basically by space. I mean, I just I'm gonna stick with Point Raise too. I'm there with you.
Kirsty Grind, reporter The New York Times, Thank you so much for joining us.
Thanks so much for having me.
This episode was produced by Stacey Wong. Naomi Shaven and Rayhan Harmanti are senior editors. The idea for this very show also came from Rayhon Blake Maples handles engineering, and David Purcell fact checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrikson. The elon Ing theme is written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Suvierra. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks as always to our supporter Joel Weber. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, rate and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.