Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet.

More than half the satellites in space are owned and controlled by one man.

More than half the satellites in space are owned and controlled by one man.

Well, he's a legitimate super genius.

Well, he's a legitimate super genius.

I mean legitimate. He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will be different.

I mean legitimate. He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will be different.

He'll vote Republican.

He'll vote Republican.

There is a reason the US government is so reliant on him.

There is a reason the US government is so reliant on him.

Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing.

Alon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing.

Anything he does, he's fascinating people.

Anything he does, he's fascinating people.

Welcome to elan Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, February eleventh. I'm your host, David Papadopoulos. Today we're talking about what else do Since we last gathered here, Musk and his band of doze zealots have burrowed themselves into many corners of the federal government as they frantically pursued their goal of gutting what they deem wasteful. The pushback from courses across the country's mounting. Now the question, or one of the questions, is will Musk and the Trump administration heed the judge's warnings. And then yesterday afternoon, a bombshell dropped. Elon was leading a group of investors offering ninety seven zero point four billion dollars to acquire open Ai. Is Elon, sirius? Is he just trolling? Is he messing with rival? Sam Altman, who should be noted, quickly rejected the bid. To talk Doze, we have Dana Hall. Hey, they're Dana Hey, David and Max Schaffkin. Max, how you doing?

Welcome to elan Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, February eleventh. I'm your host, David Papadopoulos. Today we're talking about what else do Since we last gathered here, Musk and his band of doze zealots have burrowed themselves into many corners of the federal government as they frantically pursued their goal of gutting what they deem wasteful. The pushback from courses across the country's mounting. Now the question, or one of the questions, is will Musk and the Trump administration heed the judge's warnings. And then yesterday afternoon, a bombshell dropped. Elon was leading a group of investors offering ninety seven zero point four billion dollars to acquire open Ai. Is Elon, sirius? Is he just trolling? Is he messing with rival? Sam Altman, who should be noted, quickly rejected the bid. To talk Doze, we have Dana Hall. Hey, they're Dana Hey, David and Max Schaffkin. Max, how you doing?

David?

David?

Hello, Hello, as well as Bloomberg political reporter Josh Wingrove dialing in from Washington. Josh, welcome, sir.

Hello, Hello, as well as Bloomberg political reporter Josh Wingrove dialing in from Washington. Josh, welcome, sir.

Thank you for having me. It's an eventful time.

Thank you for having me. It's an eventful time.

Indeed it is. And then later on we will welcome back a special guest, a guy fast on his way to earning official friend of POD's status. New York Magazine tech writer John Herman to talk about what he calls the Elon bailout, as well as the latest chapter of the musk Open Ai saga. Okay, Josh, so we're going to start with you there. Doge is on the rampage. Bring our audience up to speed. It's all happening fast and furious. Give us the last seventy two hours in the Doge universe.

Indeed it is. And then later on we will welcome back a special guest, a guy fast on his way to earning official friend of POD's status. New York Magazine tech writer John Herman to talk about what he calls the Elon bailout, as well as the latest chapter of the musk Open Ai saga. Okay, Josh, so we're going to start with you there. Doge is on the rampage. Bring our audience up to speed. It's all happening fast and furious. Give us the last seventy two hours in the Doge universe.

I mean, they are trying to dive into everything, and Trump has given them license to hit every department, including Defense, including education, including Treasury, of course, where a lot of the news has been focused in this past week. But just to give you a scene, like every time a headline drops on something they're doing or something that makes Democrats heads explode or you know whatever, we all go to the White House for comment, and they've been sort of like dancing around it a little bit, but Trump himself consistently really leans in on this to give sort of license essentially to what Elon Musk is doing with.

I mean, they are trying to dive into everything, and Trump has given them license to hit every department, including Defense, including education, including Treasury, of course, where a lot of the news has been focused in this past week. But just to give you a scene, like every time a headline drops on something they're doing or something that makes Democrats heads explode or you know whatever, we all go to the White House for comment, and they've been sort of like dancing around it a little bit, but Trump himself consistently really leans in on this to give sort of license essentially to what Elon Musk is doing with.

Though Josh really leans into what exactly.

Though Josh really leans into what exactly.

Trump is leaning into endorsing what Musk is doing. He putting in caveats here and there, but generally speaking, when we asked him about it, as was the case a couple of days ago, as he flew to the super Bowl, you know, he's sort of blessing he's standing by Elon, and every time Musks gets in Trump, you kind of wonder, oh, is this the moment where they're going to crack, because this is the moment where Trump is going to start distancing himself, and we just haven't had that happen right now on the contrary, Trump is really you know, stuck close to him. And like, for an example, on Sunday, Trump called us up to the front of the plane as he flew to the super Bowl. You know, he had a big sign that's a Gulf of America. We were over the Gulf of Now, I guess you're.

Trump is leaning into endorsing what Musk is doing. He putting in caveats here and there, but generally speaking, when we asked him about it, as was the case a couple of days ago, as he flew to the super Bowl, you know, he's sort of blessing he's standing by Elon, and every time Musks gets in Trump, you kind of wonder, oh, is this the moment where they're going to crack, because this is the moment where Trump is going to start distancing himself, and we just haven't had that happen right now on the contrary, Trump is really you know, stuck close to him. And like, for an example, on Sunday, Trump called us up to the front of the plane as he flew to the super Bowl. You know, he had a big sign that's a Gulf of America. We were over the Gulf of Now, I guess you're.

The Gulf of America. Yeah, by the way, now to be seen on Google maps the Gulf of America.

The Gulf of America. Yeah, by the way, now to be seen on Google maps the Gulf of America.

Max apparently, depending on where you are. But he, you know, held court for a while and talked about this, and in particular wandered even into the notion of treasuries being something.

Max apparently, depending on where you are. But he, you know, held court for a while and talked about this, and in particular wandered even into the notion of treasuries being something.

So just for a second for our audience, treasuries, US treasury bonds. This is the debt the United States government has taken on to finance. It's spending when it spends more than it takes it in revenue, which is the case in just about each and every year. And I think nowadays there's roughly about thirty trillion dollars give or take of US treasury debt out there.

So just for a second for our audience, treasuries, US treasury bonds. This is the debt the United States government has taken on to finance. It's spending when it spends more than it takes it in revenue, which is the case in just about each and every year. And I think nowadays there's roughly about thirty trillion dollars give or take of US treasury debt out there.

It's more than that now, but yeah, there's a lot of it out there. Thirty six I think it was maybe a more recent number. And the reporting until now is that the Musk and the Doge team at Treasury have been focusing on payments that Treasury is sending out, but Trump sort of suggested that it went even beyond that, that it wasn't just sending out payments that Trump's team thinks you shouldn't send out. That it was oh, maybe the debt that we have isn't as big as we thought it was. And that really raised eyebrows because then it raised the notion that we were talking not just about treasury payments, but that this sort of fraud hunt extended even towards the debt. And of course, the notion that the US might start, you know, wavering on whether it consider it's it's debt legit or not, you know, has the potential to rattle market. So that kind of that that that rattled things. I think, I think just overall on this, Trump is framing this as fraud to give it political license. He's saying that he was elected to get rid of fraud and that Elon is doing his work for him. So he's pushing back on the suggestion that Musk is you know, an unelected guy sort of marauding through the government, controlling with the keys to everything right. So Trump is not only standing by him, he's like writing in a blanket.

It's more than that now, but yeah, there's a lot of it out there. Thirty six I think it was maybe a more recent number. And the reporting until now is that the Musk and the Doge team at Treasury have been focusing on payments that Treasury is sending out, but Trump sort of suggested that it went even beyond that, that it wasn't just sending out payments that Trump's team thinks you shouldn't send out. That it was oh, maybe the debt that we have isn't as big as we thought it was. And that really raised eyebrows because then it raised the notion that we were talking not just about treasury payments, but that this sort of fraud hunt extended even towards the debt. And of course, the notion that the US might start, you know, wavering on whether it consider it's it's debt legit or not, you know, has the potential to rattle market. So that kind of that that that rattled things. I think, I think just overall on this, Trump is framing this as fraud to give it political license. He's saying that he was elected to get rid of fraud and that Elon is doing his work for him. So he's pushing back on the suggestion that Musk is you know, an unelected guy sort of marauding through the government, controlling with the keys to everything right. So Trump is not only standing by him, he's like writing in a blanket.

He's saying, you know, Elon Musk is my guy. Max fraud, fraud everywhere.

He's saying, you know, Elon Musk is my guy. Max fraud, fraud everywhere.

I don't know what he's talking about with the Treasury thing.

I don't know what he's talking about with the Treasury thing.

My best guess is that it's like a calculation question. It's like it's like how they're going to decide to calculate the amount of debt or something like.

My best guess is that it's like a calculation question. It's like it's like how they're going to decide to calculate the amount of debt or something like.

That, Max, are redefaulting. Just tell me we're defaulting. I want to know.

That, Max, are redefaulting. Just tell me we're defaulting. I want to know.

I think one of the reasons that they're talking about fraud, I mean, I think it's both because of who Elon is, but also politically right, Like a lot of the stuff that Elon is walking towards is super unpopular, and you know, whether it's like cutting NIH funding. You know, the NIH is a major cause of a lot of jobs and a lot of red states, and you can kind of go down all these charities that they were attacking. There are lots of things they're doing that voters, senators, congress people are not gonna like. So that's why they're keeping it focused on fraud.

I think one of the reasons that they're talking about fraud, I mean, I think it's both because of who Elon is, but also politically right, Like a lot of the stuff that Elon is walking towards is super unpopular, and you know, whether it's like cutting NIH funding. You know, the NIH is a major cause of a lot of jobs and a lot of red states, and you can kind of go down all these charities that they were attacking. There are lots of things they're doing that voters, senators, congress people are not gonna like. So that's why they're keeping it focused on fraud.

I think I would just like to remind the listeners that this whole idea of doge was Elon's idea. He proposed it to Trump on an audio spaces in August and basically pushed Trump to say yes. And so I get super frustrated when I see stories that are like Trump has tapped Musk to like lead an efficiency effort. This was Musk's plan.

I think I would just like to remind the listeners that this whole idea of doge was Elon's idea. He proposed it to Trump on an audio spaces in August and basically pushed Trump to say yes. And so I get super frustrated when I see stories that are like Trump has tapped Musk to like lead an efficiency effort. This was Musk's plan.

This is Musk tap Musk.

This is Musk tap Musk.

Musk pitch this.

Musk pitch this.

Job for himself and has been given carte blanche from the executive from the administration to do what he's doing. Congress is totally flat flooted and has been completely supine and has rolled over and abdicate. I mean, the whole concept of separation of powers is being eroded. And now you're seeing must go after the judiciary whenever there's like a judge filing like a stay or a tro like Musk is basically calling out the judge on X. So like we're seeing like the whole concept of balance of power completely be eroded, and nothing is going to stop Elin at the moment as far as I can tell, and they are already signaling that they're not going to go along with what the judge says. So and to Josh's point, like the fact that Musk is doing this with this sort of widespread power that Trump is supporting him, and that Congress is sort of left flat footed kind of works in the administration's favor.

Job for himself and has been given carte blanche from the executive from the administration to do what he's doing. Congress is totally flat flooted and has been completely supine and has rolled over and abdicate. I mean, the whole concept of separation of powers is being eroded. And now you're seeing must go after the judiciary whenever there's like a judge filing like a stay or a tro like Musk is basically calling out the judge on X. So like we're seeing like the whole concept of balance of power completely be eroded, and nothing is going to stop Elin at the moment as far as I can tell, and they are already signaling that they're not going to go along with what the judge says. So and to Josh's point, like the fact that Musk is doing this with this sort of widespread power that Trump is supporting him, and that Congress is sort of left flat footed kind of works in the administration's favor.

So Josh on that point that Dana raises on this administration and Musk's Doze team challenging courts and clearly pushing through things that they know themselves are very much in a gray area of the law, and then also to a certain extent saying well, well, you know, we'll see how much we abide by what the court says. Presidents going back for years have pushed the boundaries of the law and then seeing how the courts reacted. Just how different is this time around.

So Josh on that point that Dana raises on this administration and Musk's Doze team challenging courts and clearly pushing through things that they know themselves are very much in a gray area of the law, and then also to a certain extent saying well, well, you know, we'll see how much we abide by what the court says. Presidents going back for years have pushed the boundaries of the law and then seeing how the courts reacted. Just how different is this time around.

I mean, Trump, with every day, you know, challenges, at the very least sort of the perceived limits of the power of the presidency. He really believes in consolidating power. Even his sort of go to move these first two weeks executive orders, those are usually pretty flimsy. I mean, they're sometimes not worth the paper that they're printed on, but Trump is wielding them like royal decrees and people are bound to that. So he kind of has kind of shifted the Overton window on what like an executive order is and therefore what presidential authority is, and so Elon continues to test that. I think there are a couple things to watch for. Number one is do the secretaries start pushing back, right because he's mucking around in the back rooms of the Department of the Treasury, the Department of Education, the Department of whatever. And as long as the secretaries are buying into that, you know, no problem. But if they start pushing back against that, then you start to get power struggles and power struggles. Of course, we're a defining feature of the first Trump administration so far sort of you know, kept down in the second Trump administration. But if that starts happening, you know, who knows how that's going to shake out.

I mean, Trump, with every day, you know, challenges, at the very least sort of the perceived limits of the power of the presidency. He really believes in consolidating power. Even his sort of go to move these first two weeks executive orders, those are usually pretty flimsy. I mean, they're sometimes not worth the paper that they're printed on, but Trump is wielding them like royal decrees and people are bound to that. So he kind of has kind of shifted the Overton window on what like an executive order is and therefore what presidential authority is, and so Elon continues to test that. I think there are a couple things to watch for. Number one is do the secretaries start pushing back, right because he's mucking around in the back rooms of the Department of the Treasury, the Department of Education, the Department of whatever. And as long as the secretaries are buying into that, you know, no problem. But if they start pushing back against that, then you start to get power struggles and power struggles. Of course, we're a defining feature of the first Trump administration so far sort of you know, kept down in the second Trump administration. But if that starts happening, you know, who knows how that's going to shake out.

Scott Bessen is one that I yeah, Treasure Sector last week, you know, Musk they had this whole you know, back and forth over does he have read only access? And and Trump was saying, you know, Trump and the Trump administration was essentially saying that, look, he can he can look at the data, but he can't do anything with it.

Scott Bessen is one that I yeah, Treasure Sector last week, you know, Musk they had this whole you know, back and forth over does he have read only access? And and Trump was saying, you know, Trump and the Trump administration was essentially saying that, look, he can he can look at the data, but he can't do anything with it.

And then musco'es on Twitter and says there are still.

And then musco'es on Twitter and says there are still.

Billions of payments in fraud going through the Treasury payment system, which kind of sounds like an attack on Scott Bessen, right, You're you're sort of saying like, uh, Scott Besson doesn't have control all this. And again, this thing that Josh brought up earlier, it's some idea that maybe some of the bonds that we have or you know, we don't have to pay the debt on or whatever like. It definitely seems like that is undermining part of what Scott Besen has to do, and you could imagine that leading to conflict.

Billions of payments in fraud going through the Treasury payment system, which kind of sounds like an attack on Scott Bessen, right, You're you're sort of saying like, uh, Scott Besson doesn't have control all this. And again, this thing that Josh brought up earlier, it's some idea that maybe some of the bonds that we have or you know, we don't have to pay the debt on or whatever like. It definitely seems like that is undermining part of what Scott Besen has to do, and you could imagine that leading to conflict.

Now, Dana, as Josh was intimating, Musk and his crew are about to head into the Department of Defense. They are there already. The stakes once they're in there, for any number of reasons, suddenly really ratchet up quite a bit.

Now, Dana, as Josh was intimating, Musk and his crew are about to head into the Department of Defense. They are there already. The stakes once they're in there, for any number of reasons, suddenly really ratchet up quite a bit.

Yeah, and that's because the Defense Department is a huge part of our overall budget, and because Musk is a defense contractor, so SpaceX has a lot of contracts with the Department of Defense for both rocket launches and starlink, and he has said quite publicly, including during a conversation at West Point, that the future of warfare is AI and drones. Well, guess who has an AI company? Elon Musk, Guess who has you know, makes military hardware and drones. You know his buddies at and Drurro. So you're going to see a real shift in terms of the way the Pentagon does procurement, and Elon and his friends have an enormous amount of gain.

Yeah, and that's because the Defense Department is a huge part of our overall budget, and because Musk is a defense contractor, so SpaceX has a lot of contracts with the Department of Defense for both rocket launches and starlink, and he has said quite publicly, including during a conversation at West Point, that the future of warfare is AI and drones. Well, guess who has an AI company? Elon Musk, Guess who has you know, makes military hardware and drones. You know his buddies at and Drurro. So you're going to see a real shift in terms of the way the Pentagon does procurement, and Elon and his friends have an enormous amount of gain.

There attempted shift.

There attempted shift.

Oh for sure that the it's just going to actually happen because again, same thing I brought up about the NIH and I've said this before on this podcast, these defense contractors are major job creators. I don't know that Musk is going to have as much rope as people think he will.

Oh for sure that the it's just going to actually happen because again, same thing I brought up about the NIH and I've said this before on this podcast, these defense contractors are major job creators. I don't know that Musk is going to have as much rope as people think he will.

Cutting the defense.

Cutting the defense.

Well, again because of the conflicts of interest, and because we're talking about jobs.

Well, again because of the conflicts of interest, and because we're talking about jobs.

I think going after USAID and it's roughly what Josh, forty billion dollars year budget that largely of course goes overseas to people who do not vote in US elections, is one thing. Going after large contracts for the military industrial complex I think is an entirely different thing. The Secretary Defense Pete has Get says he welcomes Elon with open arms. That one is going to be very interesting to see how it plays out now, Josh, but they're on the ground in DC. What is the mood on the Democrat side, my understanding is their phone lines are blowing up from irate constituents saying, damn it, do something. What's the sense there? Where do they stand in forming a credible opposition to Musk and Trump.

I think going after USAID and it's roughly what Josh, forty billion dollars year budget that largely of course goes overseas to people who do not vote in US elections, is one thing. Going after large contracts for the military industrial complex I think is an entirely different thing. The Secretary Defense Pete has Get says he welcomes Elon with open arms. That one is going to be very interesting to see how it plays out now, Josh, but they're on the ground in DC. What is the mood on the Democrat side, my understanding is their phone lines are blowing up from irate constituents saying, damn it, do something. What's the sense there? Where do they stand in forming a credible opposition to Musk and Trump.

They're in a really tough spot because conservatives are mostly delighting in what Musk is doing. I think that that's an important factor to look at here. If people think that there's some sort of pressure building up on Trump within the Republican Party, within the broader conservative movement, it's just not there. And so for Democrats when they go and do some you know, stunt or whatever, trying to like go into these agencies that are being dismantled, the problem is that that only sort of feeds the perception that is delighting conservatives who are wanting Trump to really make structural changes to the broader state. And so that is really the trap that they're in. Not only are Democrats, of course, you know, kind of rudderless right now, but more broadly, they don't really have any tools that would be effective to sort of crank up the pressure on this, whether it's at USA AID or others. The blowback that Max alluded to is going to come more from when they start hitting red states, for instance, when banks gets hit by funding cuts.

They're in a really tough spot because conservatives are mostly delighting in what Musk is doing. I think that that's an important factor to look at here. If people think that there's some sort of pressure building up on Trump within the Republican Party, within the broader conservative movement, it's just not there. And so for Democrats when they go and do some you know, stunt or whatever, trying to like go into these agencies that are being dismantled, the problem is that that only sort of feeds the perception that is delighting conservatives who are wanting Trump to really make structural changes to the broader state. And so that is really the trap that they're in. Not only are Democrats, of course, you know, kind of rudderless right now, but more broadly, they don't really have any tools that would be effective to sort of crank up the pressure on this, whether it's at USA AID or others. The blowback that Max alluded to is going to come more from when they start hitting red states, for instance, when banks gets hit by funding cuts.

Max. That is a good point that according to a CBS poll they came out. I believe on Monday, Donald Trump's approval numbers are up since his inauguration. I believe Americans a greater number of Americans now approve of him and what he's doing visa v from before.

Max. That is a good point that according to a CBS poll they came out. I believe on Monday, Donald Trump's approval numbers are up since his inauguration. I believe Americans a greater number of Americans now approve of him and what he's doing visa v from before.

It's true, although Elon Musk's numbers are not haven't looked so good. There's been a couple of poles I haven't looked. I don't know if anything's come out this week, but last week there were two poles, you know, showing that Musk's numbers had fallen since the election pretty badly. So I think Josh is right, like I think, and what you're saying, like picking on these kind of soft targets like USAID or whatever, like the pain is going to come later.

It's true, although Elon Musk's numbers are not haven't looked so good. There's been a couple of poles I haven't looked. I don't know if anything's come out this week, but last week there were two poles, you know, showing that Musk's numbers had fallen since the election pretty badly. So I think Josh is right, like I think, and what you're saying, like picking on these kind of soft targets like USAID or whatever, like the pain is going to come later.

The pain for Trump politically is you've.

The pain for Trump politically is you've.

Made a lot of promises and like, what have you actually done except for so a lot of chaos, right, Like fifty billion dollars is not that too much money in the scheme of things and a lot of these things that Musk has done either. They sound very dramatic, and there's been a real cost for the civil service, but it's not clear that he's gonna come away from this having achieved a whole lot. And then if you put that on top of you know, creating chaos in red states or or pissing off voters, I mean, you know, we are seeing some activation of grassroots Democrats.

Made a lot of promises and like, what have you actually done except for so a lot of chaos, right, Like fifty billion dollars is not that too much money in the scheme of things and a lot of these things that Musk has done either. They sound very dramatic, and there's been a real cost for the civil service, but it's not clear that he's gonna come away from this having achieved a whole lot. And then if you put that on top of you know, creating chaos in red states or or pissing off voters, I mean, you know, we are seeing some activation of grassroots Democrats.

This reminds me actually that we're still playing out. I believe as we speak is the Musk team's offer of buyouts to all federal employees. I think we're still I think that's been paused by a judge. Yeah.

This reminds me actually that we're still playing out. I believe as we speak is the Musk team's offer of buyouts to all federal employees. I think we're still I think that's been paused by a judge. Yeah.

Yeah, And so far they've got sixty thousand people. They get one hundred thousand retirements each year, so like that is not a big number, that's a small number. And so again like tons of talk, tons of chaos, pain in a very few specific areas. But I don't know that he's actually done all that much despite the crisis that that Dennis.

Yeah, And so far they've got sixty thousand people. They get one hundred thousand retirements each year, so like that is not a big number, that's a small number. And so again like tons of talk, tons of chaos, pain in a very few specific areas. But I don't know that he's actually done all that much despite the crisis that that Dennis.

Well, one thing that he has done, and with this we will wrap here on this first segment, is you know, I was dead wrong. I thought the first thing those was going after was daylight savings and that they were going to make it permanent. And I'm a little disappointed that they have not gone pennies. You got it a penny. Whoever's pushing back on the death of the penny, just zip it, man, I mean, the penny's gotta go it. The penny is truly absurd. And after they're done with the penny, Max, they can go for the nickel. Max Bold bold.

Well, one thing that he has done, and with this we will wrap here on this first segment, is you know, I was dead wrong. I thought the first thing those was going after was daylight savings and that they were going to make it permanent. And I'm a little disappointed that they have not gone pennies. You got it a penny. Whoever's pushing back on the death of the penny, just zip it, man, I mean, the penny's gotta go it. The penny is truly absurd. And after they're done with the penny, Max, they can go for the nickel. Max Bold bold.

Talk from Bobdopolis over here.

Talk from Bobdopolis over here.

Wow, when you're done Nix and the penny, Nicks the nickel, Josh Wingrove, you are going to be a or You already are a very very busy man, and you will continue to be so and as a result, we will have you back on again soon.

Wow, when you're done Nix and the penny, Nicks the nickel, Josh Wingrove, you are going to be a or You already are a very very busy man, and you will continue to be so and as a result, we will have you back on again soon.

Thank you all for having me. I'll keep letting you know when we see him in the White House.

Thank you all for having me. I'll keep letting you know when we see him in the White House.

Okay, we're now joined by John Herman, New York Magazine tech writer. John. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. Okay, John, So you were last on a year ago. Man, we were so young and innocent.

Okay, we're now joined by John Herman, New York Magazine tech writer. John. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. Okay, John, So you were last on a year ago. Man, we were so young and innocent.

Porn. We were talking about porn.

Porn. We were talking about porn.

We're just you know, and god, what do we you know? What do we know? We had no idea what we were in store for, and Musk was really if you think about it, he was essentially a nobody, right right, And now every time you shake the magic eight ball and see something goes on in the world, it just comes up Musk. Now, John, you have written a piece recently where you lay out what you believe to be the bailout, as you call it, that Elon is getting as he jumps into the government and does all these things, and is he buddies up with with Trump. I got to tell you just off the bat, I'm going and I'm a little dubious on this bailout thing here, So convince me of it.

We're just you know, and god, what do we you know? What do we know? We had no idea what we were in store for, and Musk was really if you think about it, he was essentially a nobody, right right, And now every time you shake the magic eight ball and see something goes on in the world, it just comes up Musk. Now, John, you have written a piece recently where you lay out what you believe to be the bailout, as you call it, that Elon is getting as he jumps into the government and does all these things, and is he buddies up with with Trump. I got to tell you just off the bat, I'm going and I'm a little dubious on this bailout thing here, So convince me of it.

Yeah, I mean, as a term it's a little provocative, But I do think this is a strange time, confusing time, and it's helpful to sort of back up and try to, you know, in the spirit of the show, look at you know, Elon Musk first principles and try to figure out what's going on. On one hand, you've got someone who is very open about like attempting to mingle his own business interests in ways that are often unconventional and in some cases like challenged in court. So his portfolio of companies is like used, you know, to support one another in ways that are you know, he has a sort of fundamental belief that he his success is sort of fused with the fate of the world, that he is sort of destined to save the world. He says this all the time. You can, you know, doubt his sincerity, but in my view, it's it's you know, real in some sense, he's really like, you know, he believes that what he's doing is this, and I think.

Yeah, I mean, as a term it's a little provocative, But I do think this is a strange time, confusing time, and it's helpful to sort of back up and try to, you know, in the spirit of the show, look at you know, Elon Musk first principles and try to figure out what's going on. On one hand, you've got someone who is very open about like attempting to mingle his own business interests in ways that are often unconventional and in some cases like challenged in court. So his portfolio of companies is like used, you know, to support one another in ways that are you know, he has a sort of fundamental belief that he his success is sort of fused with the fate of the world, that he is sort of destined to save the world. He says this all the time. You can, you know, doubt his sincerity, but in my view, it's it's you know, real in some sense, he's really like, you know, he believes that what he's doing is this, and I think.

The three of us here, Max, Dan and I all very much believe that he does.

The three of us here, Max, Dan and I all very much believe that he does.

So we've got those first principles. Now, what happens if you add the United States government to that portfolio of companies. In the view of someone who thinks this way, you start to think about how the government helps Musk, and he tends to talk about more how how Musk can sort of change the government. So you've already talked on this show about the obvious overlap with companies like SpaceX, which has enormous contracts with different agencies and different parts of the government. And and we'll have even more through through Starlink. We can talk about Tesla, various subsidies things.

So we've got those first principles. Now, what happens if you add the United States government to that portfolio of companies. In the view of someone who thinks this way, you start to think about how the government helps Musk, and he tends to talk about more how how Musk can sort of change the government. So you've already talked on this show about the obvious overlap with companies like SpaceX, which has enormous contracts with different agencies and different parts of the government. And and we'll have even more through through Starlink. We can talk about Tesla, various subsidies things.

So, how does Musk's relationship with this administration, his very cozy relationship with this government help for instance, X right.

So, how does Musk's relationship with this administration, his very cozy relationship with this government help for instance, X right.

So SpaceX is an obvious contractor X is like further away from what we think of as you know, the normal operations of government. But it's Elon Musk's probably most distressed asset, not his most financially important. He is using it now to sort of like you know, command his incursion into government, so it's become very very visible, but also like his his proximity to power has real value to X. He is currently in the process of suing advertisers for what he says is an illegal boycott of X right, which is a lawsuit that I think a lot of people didn't take very seriously when he first filed it. Well it's certainly unconventioned, certainly, but he amended it recently. And some of these advertisers are coming back because you know, maybe they were content to ignore Elon Musk before he was the president's right hand man.

So SpaceX is an obvious contractor X is like further away from what we think of as you know, the normal operations of government. But it's Elon Musk's probably most distressed asset, not his most financially important. He is using it now to sort of like you know, command his incursion into government, so it's become very very visible, but also like his his proximity to power has real value to X. He is currently in the process of suing advertisers for what he says is an illegal boycott of X right, which is a lawsuit that I think a lot of people didn't take very seriously when he first filed it. Well it's certainly unconventioned, certainly, but he amended it recently. And some of these advertisers are coming back because you know, maybe they were content to ignore Elon Musk before he was the president's right hand man.

John John, I will just warn you that the last person who said on this podcast that that the advertisers were coming back got blown up by Max, So you know, no, they're not that coming back is coming back. Mean, Hey, here's two chits, here's two tokens. I'll put on your board to you know, to appease mister Musk. Are they really coming.

John John, I will just warn you that the last person who said on this podcast that that the advertisers were coming back got blown up by Max, So you know, no, they're not that coming back is coming back. Mean, Hey, here's two chits, here's two tokens. I'll put on your board to you know, to appease mister Musk. Are they really coming.

Back the numbers, I mean, we don't know the full numbers, but they are signaling that they're, you know, more open to coming back than they were.

Back the numbers, I mean, we don't know the full numbers, but they are signaling that they're, you know, more open to coming back than they were.

That's one piece.

That's one piece.

Another piece is that AX is sort of becoming a little bit like truth social This extension of the government communications program the the NTSB, for example, announced in a in a post on X that was where they were going to be messaging about recent air disasters, which is, you know, a small thing but also potentially a sign of like a bigger thing.

Another piece is that AX is sort of becoming a little bit like truth social This extension of the government communications program the the NTSB, for example, announced in a in a post on X that was where they were going to be messaging about recent air disasters, which is, you know, a small thing but also potentially a sign of like a bigger thing.

Right. This is an extension of the Max Chafkin theory that that's what X has become. It's become the media ar you're just I mean.

Right. This is an extension of the Max Chafkin theory that that's what X has become. It's become the media ar you're just I mean.

But this is like the least important of Musks companies that are benefiting so went from the dynamic that you that's like it's like saying, well, how is Musks video game playing? How is the Trump administration benefiting his his status on path of exile? Like it actually might be baby, but like honestly spaceds Tesla are way bigger companies with so.

But this is like the least important of Musks companies that are benefiting so went from the dynamic that you that's like it's like saying, well, how is Musks video game playing? How is the Trump administration benefiting his his status on path of exile? Like it actually might be baby, but like honestly spaceds Tesla are way bigger companies with so.

Much more to game.

Much more to game.

Twitter's is the least important, but it's like really visible and really like I think a lot of people pointed to Musk's takeover of Twitter as like a playbook, which I think is useful, but you sort of extend that a little bit further and you're like, okay, how does it flow the other way? And there are these real benefits to being someone who everyone is a little bit scared of. The advertisers, maybe come back, People have to use your platform, people have to pay attention to your platform.

Twitter's is the least important, but it's like really visible and really like I think a lot of people pointed to Musk's takeover of Twitter as like a playbook, which I think is useful, but you sort of extend that a little bit further and you're like, okay, how does it flow the other way? And there are these real benefits to being someone who everyone is a little bit scared of. The advertisers, maybe come back, People have to use your platform, people have to pay attention to your platform.

Tell us though, how this is a net positive for Tesla, because that's not screamingly obvious.

Tell us though, how this is a net positive for Tesla, because that's not screamingly obvious.

No, the Tesla situation is weird. I feel like that statement holds true pretty much at any time that you talk about Tesla's stock. For example, it's this weird company in that it's a major automaker that sells a ton of cars and has real financials. It is also, to a great degree kind of a mean stock, and that depends on Elon Musk's reputation promises about the future, some of which are kind of crazy and some of which just seem a little premature. You know, it's a mixture of like can he deliver?

No, the Tesla situation is weird. I feel like that statement holds true pretty much at any time that you talk about Tesla's stock. For example, it's this weird company in that it's a major automaker that sells a ton of cars and has real financials. It is also, to a great degree kind of a mean stock, and that depends on Elon Musk's reputation promises about the future, some of which are kind of crazy and some of which just seem a little premature. You know, it's a mixture of like can he deliver?

Will he deliver?

Will he deliver?

Is this made up?

Is this made up?

Now?

Now?

In addition to that, you've got this this you know, sort of implied connection to the establishment in the biggest possible sense. So not only does Elon Musk say, okay, listen to me, I know we had a bad quarter, which they did. Don't worry about our cars. Think about our cyber taxis, think about our humanoid robots that we're working on, think about AI, think about these things with you know, vague future dates, and you know, we're we're doing this cycle again. But also what if and think about this, investors, what if I now can't lose What if I am like the supreme government connected.

In addition to that, you've got this this you know, sort of implied connection to the establishment in the biggest possible sense. So not only does Elon Musk say, okay, listen to me, I know we had a bad quarter, which they did. Don't worry about our cars. Think about our cyber taxis, think about our humanoid robots that we're working on, think about AI, think about these things with you know, vague future dates, and you know, we're we're doing this cycle again. But also what if and think about this, investors, what if I now can't lose What if I am like the supreme government connected.

There's some clear examples where Tesla is really well positioned. So example, one tariffs. Tesla does it make cars in Mexico. They make all of their cars that they sell in the United States in the United States, so they are sort of like insulated from tariffs compared to Ford and GM. The second thing is the Heavy Program, So like the Trump administration just funded just basically froze or halted all of the payments that go out to the states to build a network of high speed electric vehicle chargers. Halting those payments really disrupts all the plans that these states had to kind of build out a charging network, but it really helps Tesla, which actually already has a charging network that a lot of other automakers use. And so in small ways you're seeing the administration do things that do benefit Tesla. And what's you know, what I try to remind people is like, you know, Elon has very smartly played both sides of the aisle, because like Tesla got enormous benefit from the Inflation Reduction Act and now Trump is like walking back a lot of that. But it's it's it's like they're not walking back forty five X, which is the manufacturing text credit. So like Tesla wins no matter what, like they are going to be okay. The biggest risk to Tesla right now is just the brand and of Elon's craziness and the sales plummet in markets like Europe and the US.

There's some clear examples where Tesla is really well positioned. So example, one tariffs. Tesla does it make cars in Mexico. They make all of their cars that they sell in the United States in the United States, so they are sort of like insulated from tariffs compared to Ford and GM. The second thing is the Heavy Program, So like the Trump administration just funded just basically froze or halted all of the payments that go out to the states to build a network of high speed electric vehicle chargers. Halting those payments really disrupts all the plans that these states had to kind of build out a charging network, but it really helps Tesla, which actually already has a charging network that a lot of other automakers use. And so in small ways you're seeing the administration do things that do benefit Tesla. And what's you know, what I try to remind people is like, you know, Elon has very smartly played both sides of the aisle, because like Tesla got enormous benefit from the Inflation Reduction Act and now Trump is like walking back a lot of that. But it's it's it's like they're not walking back forty five X, which is the manufacturing text credit. So like Tesla wins no matter what, like they are going to be okay. The biggest risk to Tesla right now is just the brand and of Elon's craziness and the sales plummet in markets like Europe and the US.

Yeah, and to that point, and max I in my absence last week, I do appreciate you guys talking about the collapse in sales in California, which were followed then by a collapse in sales in Germany and I think France that happened around the same time. And these are big numbers, down sixty percent or so all that, I guess certainly does seem to square with a drop and Musk's approval rating. And I guess if right now there are any checks or leverage that must detractors have on him, maybe this is the extent of it.

Yeah, and to that point, and max I in my absence last week, I do appreciate you guys talking about the collapse in sales in California, which were followed then by a collapse in sales in Germany and I think France that happened around the same time. And these are big numbers, down sixty percent or so all that, I guess certainly does seem to square with a drop and Musk's approval rating. And I guess if right now there are any checks or leverage that must detractors have on him, maybe this is the extent of it.

The sales you mean, yeah, yeah, I just to want to reiterate one thing Danna said, which is like really important, Like it would be awesome for Musk if he could just like get the Defense Department to hand him like a ten billion dollar check for something, or to like just have the federal government like pay him directly, you buy some Starlink satellites by a Mars mission, make have Tesla as the new designer of military jeeps or some crazy stuff like. That'd be great, But that stuff is going to be more difficult, it's politically difficult. But just stopping stuff benefits his companies enormously, Like if he is able to like pull up the ladder behind him on tax credits, or if he is able to for evs, if he is able to slow down other providers of rural broadband, which he appears to be doing, like all these things with Starlink, all these things like help him and so he's gaining just by like cutting things, and we haven't even started talking about writing checks.

The sales you mean, yeah, yeah, I just to want to reiterate one thing Danna said, which is like really important, Like it would be awesome for Musk if he could just like get the Defense Department to hand him like a ten billion dollar check for something, or to like just have the federal government like pay him directly, you buy some Starlink satellites by a Mars mission, make have Tesla as the new designer of military jeeps or some crazy stuff like. That'd be great, But that stuff is going to be more difficult, it's politically difficult. But just stopping stuff benefits his companies enormously, Like if he is able to like pull up the ladder behind him on tax credits, or if he is able to for evs, if he is able to slow down other providers of rural broadband, which he appears to be doing, like all these things with Starlink, all these things like help him and so he's gaining just by like cutting things, and we haven't even started talking about writing checks.

I do think addition by some truck, I do.

I do think addition by some truck, I do.

Think the thing that John is saying that is really smart is that people see Elon as this like, you know, he's this amazing capitalist. He has all this influence. He's the world's richest man, but he is vulnerable in certain ways. And like one of the reasons he did this with Trump is because I think he had vulnerabilities and and like those vulnerabilities continue today, and and by it's not just the sales thing, it's by by making himself a political force, by by allying this closely with Donald Trump, a guy who is, yeah, his pull numbers have gone up a little bit, but he's not that popular. Musk is eroding some of the things that have made him very powerful. And you're seeing that in the stock price, right, Like Tesla stock has fallen by like eighty bucks over the last few days, you.

Think the thing that John is saying that is really smart is that people see Elon as this like, you know, he's this amazing capitalist. He has all this influence. He's the world's richest man, but he is vulnerable in certain ways. And like one of the reasons he did this with Trump is because I think he had vulnerabilities and and like those vulnerabilities continue today, and and by it's not just the sales thing, it's by by making himself a political force, by by allying this closely with Donald Trump, a guy who is, yeah, his pull numbers have gone up a little bit, but he's not that popular. Musk is eroding some of the things that have made him very powerful. And you're seeing that in the stock price, right, Like Tesla stock has fallen by like eighty bucks over the last few days, you.

Know, since the inauguration. I was looking at this this morning. Twelve of the sixteen trading sessions since the inauguration, Tesla stock is down. It's not plunging each and every day, but it's down and it's down. Yeah, it's now down about seventy percent.

Know, since the inauguration. I was looking at this this morning. Twelve of the sixteen trading sessions since the inauguration, Tesla stock is down. It's not plunging each and every day, but it's down and it's down. Yeah, it's now down about seventy percent.

I do think that the traders who have bid this stock up for no particularly good reason other than the fact that Elon has proximity toward Trump are thinking, like John says, hey, heads, he wins, tails, he wins whatever, but you are seeing more reasons to doubt him, and like that is what is driving the stock down.

I do think that the traders who have bid this stock up for no particularly good reason other than the fact that Elon has proximity toward Trump are thinking, like John says, hey, heads, he wins, tails, he wins whatever, but you are seeing more reasons to doubt him, and like that is what is driving the stock down.

Okay, Dana Elon Musk says he and some other investors want to purchase open Ai. Tell us about this and where it currently stands.

Okay, Dana Elon Musk says he and some other investors want to purchase open Ai. Tell us about this and where it currently stands.

So I guess they made a bid for open Ai, and Sam Alton immediately responded and was like, open Ai is not for sale. So I don't know where this currently stands. I just think that like Elon is doing what Elon does, which is to sort of be like the big bully pulpit and in the middle of, you know, upending the American government, He's like trying to go on his m and a spree and and Sam is like, no, like, we're not.

So I guess they made a bid for open Ai, and Sam Alton immediately responded and was like, open Ai is not for sale. So I don't know where this currently stands. I just think that like Elon is doing what Elon does, which is to sort of be like the big bully pulpit and in the middle of, you know, upending the American government, He's like trying to go on his m and a spree and and Sam is like, no, like, we're not.

For sale, Max, is this a legit attempt? You're right furiously scrouching down.

For sale, Max, is this a legit attempt? You're right furiously scrouching down.

I was making sort of like a matrix on like how realistic is this acquisition offer?

I was making sort of like a matrix on like how realistic is this acquisition offer?

For Elon Musk. So like on one side you have.

For Elon Musk. So like on one side you have.

Threatening to buy Coca Cola to put the cocaine back in it, like clearly a joke offer. And then on the other side you have buying Solar City, which was like clearly a serious offer.

Threatening to buy Coca Cola to put the cocaine back in it, like clearly a joke offer. And then on the other side you have buying Solar City, which was like clearly a serious offer.

Yes, Twitter swimming somewhere.

Yes, Twitter swimming somewhere.

In the middle because it was a joke, it seemed like, but then it became a serious thing, buying Liverpool Football Club, which has he has kind of joked about.

In the middle because it was a joke, it seemed like, but then it became a serious thing, buying Liverpool Football Club, which has he has kind of joked about.

I'd say, close to the Coca Cola thing.

I'd say, close to the Coca Cola thing.

This feels like, I'd say, smack in the middle of this chart because it's not a serious.

This feels like, I'd say, smack in the middle of this chart because it's not a serious.

So to the right of Liverpool, to the.

So to the right of Liverpool, to the.

Right of if this, yeah, on the left, farthest on the left is the least serious.

Right of if this, yeah, on the left, farthest on the left is the least serious.

Farthest on the right, that's right dead center.

Farthest on the right, that's right dead center.

And I say that because it's not a serious offer in the in terms of the size, this is like a.

And I say that because it's not a serious offer in the in terms of the size, this is like a.

Low ball nine, wildly undervalues the company.

Low ball nine, wildly undervalues the company.

But I do think he could create chaos for Sam Altman if he goes to the negotiating table, right and like, to me, this feels like, you know, in poker terms, like big stack bully, like if you have an insane amount of money you can, you and negotiations can do all sorts of things. You can sort of push people away from negotiating table, you can.

But I do think he could create chaos for Sam Altman if he goes to the negotiating table, right and like, to me, this feels like, you know, in poker terms, like big stack bully, like if you have an insane amount of money you can, you and negotiations can do all sorts of things. You can sort of push people away from negotiating table, you can.

So like, maybe he's just trying.

So like, maybe he's just trying.

To cause on the other side, isn't isn't Microsoft on the other side alongside Sam Altman.

To cause on the other side, isn't isn't Microsoft on the other side alongside Sam Altman.

Yeah, but I think they have a pretty good stack too. No, I don't think.

Yeah, but I think they have a pretty good stack too. No, I don't think.

That Microsoft is necessarily as willing to raise hundred hundreds of billions of dollars to what buy out Microsoft.

That Microsoft is necessarily as willing to raise hundred hundreds of billions of dollars to what buy out Microsoft.

I mean, the Microsoft has already bet a lot of money on this company.

I mean, the Microsoft has already bet a lot of money on this company.

So, like, I don't like again, like, I don't know, I don't know how, I don't know what open ass finances look like.

So, like, I don't like again, like, I don't know, I don't know how, I don't know what open ass finances look like.

This seems like a low ball offer.

This seems like a low ball offer.

But I would have to think that if he started negotiating with them, he could create problems as sam Altman tries to raise, you know, additional funding and sam Altman is trying to negotiate an equity stake for himself as part of this conversion to a.

But I would have to think that if he started negotiating with them, he could create problems as sam Altman tries to raise, you know, additional funding and sam Altman is trying to negotiate an equity stake for himself as part of this conversion to a.

Yeah, we actually have a clip of Sam Altman and some things he said to us I'm Bloomberg TV earlier today.

Yeah, we actually have a clip of Sam Altman and some things he said to us I'm Bloomberg TV earlier today.

Do you think Musk's approach then is from a position of insecurity about x Ayon probably his whole.

Do you think Musk's approach then is from a position of insecurity about x Ayon probably his whole.

Life is from a position of insecurity. I feel for the guy. I feel fair, I do. Actually I don't think he's like a happy person.

Life is from a position of insecurity. I feel for the guy. I feel fair, I do. Actually I don't think he's like a happy person.

I do feel for him.

I do feel for him.

Okay, so John Herman, hit me with your theory on all this.

Okay, so John Herman, hit me with your theory on all this.

I mean, with the caveat that none of this is inevitable and this could all go catastrophically wrong for a musk in a variety of different ways. He is I think like making this bid from a position of what he feels is strength again because of his sort of like incorporation with the government. So if we return to the sort of like bailout framework here, Xai is is by a lot of metrics doing very well. They're developing very quickly. They're catching up really.

I mean, with the caveat that none of this is inevitable and this could all go catastrophically wrong for a musk in a variety of different ways. He is I think like making this bid from a position of what he feels is strength again because of his sort of like incorporation with the government. So if we return to the sort of like bailout framework here, Xai is is by a lot of metrics doing very well. They're developing very quickly. They're catching up really.

Fast, spending a bunch of money, Valuations climbing.

Fast, spending a bunch of money, Valuations climbing.

Sure, and he's able to raise a bunch of money for Xai for you know whatever. But it's not like it's making any money. It's still catching up. It doesn't have customers, really, it's not in the conversation with like programmers.

Sure, and he's able to raise a bunch of money for Xai for you know whatever. But it's not like it's making any money. It's still catching up. It doesn't have customers, really, it's not in the conversation with like programmers.

Does it not have the US government as a customer. That's the thing.

Does it not have the US government as a customer. That's the thing.

Now, it might you know what, if you know open Ai the clear leader in this moment in the you know, sort of loosely defined AI industry that is getting its first big federal contracts, that is developing all these tools for major, major potential contracts. Here, what if they suddenly had a competitor that had, like right a first refusal for basically every federal federal contract that had the term artificial intelligence in it. And you talk about those intruding into all these different agencies and showing up this very small team claiming to use AI to do analysis to streamline operations. That's all kind of made up right now. They don't have the tools to really do that, but it is a pretty clear telegraphing of a plan to say like, hey, yeah, now we know everything, we have all the data, We are better positioned than anyone, and are politically connected for you know, a market that basically doesn't exist yet. Why don't we you know, why wouldn't we win this? I don't mean to spell this out as like a complicated plot, but it's more just like if you're Elon Musk, if you are this sort of like intuitive power seeking person, you're in the position you're in, You're like, all right, I've got an AI company. I hate Sam Altman. You know, I'm going to try to buy them, and I'm going to take every federal contract while I'm on this run.

Now, it might you know what, if you know open Ai the clear leader in this moment in the you know, sort of loosely defined AI industry that is getting its first big federal contracts, that is developing all these tools for major, major potential contracts. Here, what if they suddenly had a competitor that had, like right a first refusal for basically every federal federal contract that had the term artificial intelligence in it. And you talk about those intruding into all these different agencies and showing up this very small team claiming to use AI to do analysis to streamline operations. That's all kind of made up right now. They don't have the tools to really do that, but it is a pretty clear telegraphing of a plan to say like, hey, yeah, now we know everything, we have all the data, We are better positioned than anyone, and are politically connected for you know, a market that basically doesn't exist yet. Why don't we you know, why wouldn't we win this? I don't mean to spell this out as like a complicated plot, but it's more just like if you're Elon Musk, if you are this sort of like intuitive power seeking person, you're in the position you're in, You're like, all right, I've got an AI company. I hate Sam Altman. You know, I'm going to try to buy them, and I'm going to take every federal contract while I'm on this run.

And by the way, I'm going to announce that I'm trying to buy them on the first day of this like Global AI summer in France, when like everyone is focused on AI and when everyone is like and Sam Altman is in France, and I'm just going to like put out this like news that I'm trying to buy his company while he's at this conference abroad. It's like, that's like a classic move to grab the news cycle.

And by the way, I'm going to announce that I'm trying to buy them on the first day of this like Global AI summer in France, when like everyone is focused on AI and when everyone is like and Sam Altman is in France, and I'm just going to like put out this like news that I'm trying to buy his company while he's at this conference abroad. It's like, that's like a classic move to grab the news cycle.

Yeah, and stick it to Sam and the process while he's trying.

Yeah, and stick it to Sam and the process while he's trying.

To raise money at a valuation that's four x right, undermining the fundraise too right.

To raise money at a valuation that's four x right, undermining the fundraise too right.

And that, by the way, beyond Sam Altman telling Bloomberg TV that Elon is just a very insecure man. He also his main theory was Elon is just messing with us. Elon is trying to throw sand in the gears here as we try to achieve certain things, and and we're going to do our darkness not to let him achieve it. Now, Max, when I guess I ask you this, you our feud watcher of all feud watchers. And I guess I just wonder if you strip out you just strip out Elon Musk versus the entire Democratic Party and all those who support the Democrats. So we're throwing that out as a feud. I guess of all the old feuds that Elon used to have and that used to watch and plot on your on your matrix, number one is this number one? Is it the only one that's left?

And that, by the way, beyond Sam Altman telling Bloomberg TV that Elon is just a very insecure man. He also his main theory was Elon is just messing with us. Elon is trying to throw sand in the gears here as we try to achieve certain things, and and we're going to do our darkness not to let him achieve it. Now, Max, when I guess I ask you this, you our feud watcher of all feud watchers. And I guess I just wonder if you strip out you just strip out Elon Musk versus the entire Democratic Party and all those who support the Democrats. So we're throwing that out as a feud. I guess of all the old feuds that Elon used to have and that used to watch and plot on your on your matrix, number one is this number one? Is it the only one that's left?

You know? It does feel that way a little bit, right, David.

You know? It does feel that way a little bit, right, David.

And and it's it's such a juicy one too, because Sam Altman and Elon kind of have some things in common here, right. They're both these like guys who have these grandiose make these grandiose statements. You know, Sam Altman is talking about, Oh, we're gonna have agi, it's gonna cure cancer or whatever.

And and it's it's such a juicy one too, because Sam Altman and Elon kind of have some things in common here, right. They're both these like guys who have these grandiose make these grandiose statements. You know, Sam Altman is talking about, Oh, we're gonna have agi, it's gonna cure cancer or whatever.

You're just ask the AI to do something.

You're just ask the AI to do something.

It's like a lot of he's like writing a lot of checks with his mouth that he can't necessarily cash, you know, exactly like Elon Musk. And it does have this quality of these two like masterful self promoters suddenly colliding, which I think makes it great. I have been trying to just racking my brain trying to figure out ninety seven point four?

It's like a lot of he's like writing a lot of checks with his mouth that he can't necessarily cash, you know, exactly like Elon Musk. And it does have this quality of these two like masterful self promoters suddenly colliding, which I think makes it great. I have been trying to just racking my brain trying to figure out ninety seven point four?

Did I get that right?

Did I get that right?

Now? That's right?

Now? That's right?

Like what's that number?

Like what's that number?

Like where's the twenty? Is it ninety seven point four two? Because otherwise, like I don't know where he got this number, Like where's the four to twenty joke?

Like where's the twenty? Is it ninety seven point four two? Because otherwise, like I don't know where he got this number, Like where's the four to twenty joke?

Where's the sixty nine jokes? I want to know where the number came from?

Where's the sixty nine jokes? I want to know where the number came from?

Will I'm I bet you by the time we record next week, someone will have cracked the code.

Will I'm I bet you by the time we record next week, someone will have cracked the code.

Or we'll get one of those delayed announcements like the Fork in the Road sculpture. Ye know, we'll get committee.

Or we'll get one of those delayed announcements like the Fork in the Road sculpture. Ye know, we'll get committee.

Yeah, we'll get something like that. All right. So John, not to put you on the spot here, but you you heard you listened to Max beause he laid out the metrics of Elon Musk and his bids and how serious or not serious they are. When we have you back on a year from now, mister Hermann, is Elon Musk the owner of Open Ai? Yes or no?

Yeah, we'll get something like that. All right. So John, not to put you on the spot here, but you you heard you listened to Max beause he laid out the metrics of Elon Musk and his bids and how serious or not serious they are. When we have you back on a year from now, mister Hermann, is Elon Musk the owner of Open Ai? Yes or no?

I'm going to say probably not, but no, that's that's my that's my guess. We'll have bigger things.

I'm going to say probably not, but no, that's that's my that's my guess. We'll have bigger things.

To worry about. I see, Okay, we'll be talking about that.

To worry about. I see, Okay, we'll be talking about that.

I'm gonna say no.

I'm gonna say no.

No, Max, I mean I want to say yes to be different, but no, no, it's not gonna happen.

No, Max, I mean I want to say yes to be different, but no, no, it's not gonna happen.

No, no, and no. So it's totally happening, you know. Oh you know, by the way, Max, we almost forgot here. Uh, the biggest news of them all right, if you're really I mean, I can't believe we're leaving it for last. Elon has a new name on his x account.

No, no, and no. So it's totally happening, you know. Oh you know, by the way, Max, we almost forgot here. Uh, the biggest news of them all right, if you're really I mean, I can't believe we're leaving it for last. Elon has a new name on his x account.

Oh god, I don't even want to say Harry Balls. It's Harry Balls. It's his name, okay Ball. This is like the most powerful person in the world.

Oh god, I don't even want to say Harry Balls. It's Harry Balls. It's his name, okay Ball. This is like the most powerful person in the world.

This is what he's doing with his time. There are a lot of you know, a lot of this.

This is what he's doing with his time. There are a lot of you know, a lot of this.

A lot of my feel probably this whole bailout, can see comes from the feeling of having to look at Twitter again and having to see Elon Musk post all the time, having to acknowledge the jokes, having to say doge the meme from twenty eleven or twenty twelve. Maybe I saw this, It's maybe I should sure go to a therapist about this, but you know.

A lot of my feel probably this whole bailout, can see comes from the feeling of having to look at Twitter again and having to see Elon Musk post all the time, having to acknowledge the jokes, having to say doge the meme from twenty eleven or twenty twelve. Maybe I saw this, It's maybe I should sure go to a therapist about this, but you know.

No, it is.

No, it is.

It is true. Every time I read the word, I read doge, and I yeah, each tree one just thinks God this is become. This is all so absurd. I mean this was just a a meme, coin joke. That is now, before.

It is true. Every time I read the word, I read doge, and I yeah, each tree one just thinks God this is become. This is all so absurd. I mean this was just a a meme, coin joke. That is now, before.

That, ten years before that, it was just a meme, right, there were people writing about how it was worn out in twenty twelve, you know, just a cute little thing. And here we are, here, we.

That, ten years before that, it was just a meme, right, there were people writing about how it was worn out in twenty twelve, you know, just a cute little thing. And here we are, here, we.

Are dedicating our lives to it. This is our lives work, mister Chaffkin, John, thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me back. Max, Dana, Thanks as always, you've brought me down, David.

Are dedicating our lives to it. This is our lives work, mister Chaffkin, John, thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me back. Max, Dana, Thanks as always, you've brought me down, David.

But it's great to be with you.

But it's great to be with you.

Always a pleasure.

Always a pleasure.

This episode was produced by Stacy Wang Anna Masa Rakus is our editor, and Rayhan Harmanci our senior editor. Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave Purcell fact checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henricson. The elon Ing theme is written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiira. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to our supporters Joe Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, rate and review our show. It'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.

This episode was produced by Stacy Wang Anna Masa Rakus is our editor, and Rayhan Harmanci our senior editor. Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave Purcell fact checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henricson. The elon Ing theme is written and performed by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiira. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to our supporters Joe Weber and Brad Stone. I'm David Papadopoulos. If you have a minute, rate and review our show. It'll help other listeners find us. See you next week.