Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.

Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. More than half the satellites in space are owned and controlled by one man.

Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. More than half the satellites in space are owned and controlled by one man.

Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate.

Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate.

He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will be different.

He says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will be different.

He'll vote Republican.

He'll vote Republican.

There is a reason the US government is so reliant on him.

There is a reason the US government is so reliant on him.

Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing.

Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing.

Anything he does, he's fascinating people.

Anything he does, he's fascinating people.

Welcome to Elon, Inc.

Welcome to Elon, Inc.

Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, January fourteenth. I'm Max Chafkin in for David Papadopolis, who's.

Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, January fourteenth. I'm Max Chafkin in for David Papadopolis, who's.

On vacation this week. We had big news last night.

On vacation this week. We had big news last night.

TikTok is reportedly under consideration by Chinese officials to be sold or handed off. We're not totally sure what the terms of this would look like to none other than Elon Musk. We're gonna talk about the business implications, the political implications, and of course the implications for teenagers everywhere. And then, with the inauguration less than a week away, we're going to talk about the brewing feud between Steve Bannon, the kind of right wing influencer and podcaster, former Trump administration official, and good old Elon. And to do this, we've got a great cast of characters for you. Kurt Wagner is joining us. He is Bloomberg's social media reporter and my favorite high school quarterback.

TikTok is reportedly under consideration by Chinese officials to be sold or handed off. We're not totally sure what the terms of this would look like to none other than Elon Musk. We're gonna talk about the business implications, the political implications, and of course the implications for teenagers everywhere. And then, with the inauguration less than a week away, we're going to talk about the brewing feud between Steve Bannon, the kind of right wing influencer and podcaster, former Trump administration official, and good old Elon. And to do this, we've got a great cast of characters for you. Kurt Wagner is joining us. He is Bloomberg's social media reporter and my favorite high school quarterback.

Hey, Kurt, i'm ax.

Hey, Kurt, i'm ax.

Thanks.

Thanks.

And later Dana Hall, our Elon Musk reporter, and Josh Green, Bloomberg BusinessWeek political reporter, will be joining us to talk about political stuff.

And later Dana Hall, our Elon Musk reporter, and Josh Green, Bloomberg BusinessWeek political reporter, will be joining us to talk about political stuff.

But Kurt, let's start here. There's some news.

But Kurt, let's start here. There's some news.

But to people who listen to the Elon podcast, it would have been a little bit familiar. I want to play a little bit of tape from our end of the year, our New Year's Eve special.

But to people who listen to the Elon podcast, it would have been a little bit familiar. I want to play a little bit of tape from our end of the year, our New Year's Eve special.

I just don't see that being that beneficial for Elon, like to have true social I think it's more likely that he will will somehow end up with the US version of TikTok Kurt.

I just don't see that being that beneficial for Elon, like to have true social I think it's more likely that he will will somehow end up with the US version of TikTok Kurt.

This is why Sarah Fryar makes a big bucks, Am I right? I mean she called it.

This is why Sarah Fryar makes a big bucks, Am I right? I mean she called it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The pay grade is high for Sarah Fryer for this very reason. Right, She is seeing around corners that you and I can only wish wish to be seen around.

The pay grade is high for Sarah Fryer for this very reason. Right, She is seeing around corners that you and I can only wish wish to be seen around.

Max Okay, So Sarah was suggesting that Elon Musk could somehow take over TikTok. Why don't she just break down what Bloomberg reported last night. I mean this was a big this is big news in the world of business.

Max Okay, So Sarah was suggesting that Elon Musk could somehow take over TikTok. Why don't she just break down what Bloomberg reported last night. I mean this was a big this is big news in the world of business.

Yeah, so we are admittedly still aways from Sarah's prediction coming true. But what we reported was that senior officials in China are basically game planning what do we do if the TikTok ban goes into effect, right, which is supposed to happen this coming Sunday. And one of the options that has been discussed was the idea that, well, maybe Elon Musk would be a reasonable owner for this platform, right, And it kind of makes sense in a number of ways if you want it to. One is that he obviously already owns X. He has a very close relationship with incoming President Trump, so it, you know, in all likelihood, would be approved by the incoming administration, which is one part of this equation. But then he also has business in China, right with Tesla, and he has a huge sort of foot in that country. And if you are the Chinese government and you say well, is there someone we want to curry favor with?

Yeah, so we are admittedly still aways from Sarah's prediction coming true. But what we reported was that senior officials in China are basically game planning what do we do if the TikTok ban goes into effect, right, which is supposed to happen this coming Sunday. And one of the options that has been discussed was the idea that, well, maybe Elon Musk would be a reasonable owner for this platform, right, And it kind of makes sense in a number of ways if you want it to. One is that he obviously already owns X. He has a very close relationship with incoming President Trump, so it, you know, in all likelihood, would be approved by the incoming administration, which is one part of this equation. But then he also has business in China, right with Tesla, and he has a huge sort of foot in that country. And if you are the Chinese government and you say well, is there someone we want to curry favor with?

Right?

Right?

Is there somebody that we want to if this has to be sold, if that's the only way for this thing to exist, is Elon Musk perhaps the most stomachable option for them, in part because they also maybe get some leverage in return, and so for all those reasons, it is sort of being discussed as a possibility. I want to be clear that this is not necessarily going to happen. That there's a whole bunch of other things that would have to happen for this to ever actually come to fruition. But again, senior officials in China sort of thinking about Elon as a possible owner of TikTok as a possibility.

Is there somebody that we want to if this has to be sold, if that's the only way for this thing to exist, is Elon Musk perhaps the most stomachable option for them, in part because they also maybe get some leverage in return, and so for all those reasons, it is sort of being discussed as a possibility. I want to be clear that this is not necessarily going to happen. That there's a whole bunch of other things that would have to happen for this to ever actually come to fruition. But again, senior officials in China sort of thinking about Elon as a possible owner of TikTok as a possibility.

Yeah, just to.

Yeah, just to.

Build on that for a second. So Number one, Byte Dance the parent company of TikTok. They are not directly controlled by the Chinese government. There is some question about whether just because Chinese officials are talking about this would Bite Dance to it, although, as as many people know, China's government has a huge amount of sway on its businesses. TikTok has actually called this report quote pure fiction. Responding to a different news outlet, Kurt has Elon commented on this yet, I.

Build on that for a second. So Number one, Byte Dance the parent company of TikTok. They are not directly controlled by the Chinese government. There is some question about whether just because Chinese officials are talking about this would Bite Dance to it, although, as as many people know, China's government has a huge amount of sway on its businesses. TikTok has actually called this report quote pure fiction. Responding to a different news outlet, Kurt has Elon commented on this yet, I.

Haven't seen him comment, but he did.

Haven't seen him comment, but he did.

Someone posted on Twitter last night that was like, here's all the TikTok users when Elon buys the company, and it was all these people like screaming and crying and being all sad. And Elon just responded to that tweet with the laughing face emoji, right, like he he didn't necessarily come out and say like this is crazy, I would never buy it. He's sort of like leaned into the joke, if you will. But no, you know, we tried to reach out to Elon before publishing the story, as you can imagine, Max, we did not hear back from him or his representatives. So but I think what you just said is important, right, which is the role of byte Dance and all this So ByteDance, of course is the Chinese parent company of TikTok, and it has said it has no intention of selling this business. Now, I think where the Chinese government comes in is if they're the only way forward for TikTok to exist in the US is a sale, and if they want to sell it with the algorithm included, right, So that's the technology that sort of determines what everyone.

Someone posted on Twitter last night that was like, here's all the TikTok users when Elon buys the company, and it was all these people like screaming and crying and being all sad. And Elon just responded to that tweet with the laughing face emoji, right, like he he didn't necessarily come out and say like this is crazy, I would never buy it. He's sort of like leaned into the joke, if you will. But no, you know, we tried to reach out to Elon before publishing the story, as you can imagine, Max, we did not hear back from him or his representatives. So but I think what you just said is important, right, which is the role of byte Dance and all this So ByteDance, of course is the Chinese parent company of TikTok, and it has said it has no intention of selling this business. Now, I think where the Chinese government comes in is if they're the only way forward for TikTok to exist in the US is a sale, and if they want to sell it with the algorithm included, right, So that's the technology that sort of determines what everyone.

Says, that type of sale, with that.

Says, that type of sale, with that.

Type of technology changing hands would actually require Chinese government approval.

Type of technology changing hands would actually require Chinese government approval.

Kurt, how unusual is this?

Kurt, how unusual is this?

I mean, just from the outside, you know, a world power sort of discussing handing one of the most successful companies to a foreign politically connected executive, Like it sounds so crazy, But I mean, like how I guess, I guess question is, like how crazy is this? Obviously Sarah Fryar predicted it, so it can't be that crazy, but still.

I mean, just from the outside, you know, a world power sort of discussing handing one of the most successful companies to a foreign politically connected executive, Like it sounds so crazy, But I mean, like how I guess, I guess question is, like how crazy is this? Obviously Sarah Fryar predicted it, so it can't be that crazy, but still.

Yeah, I mean I'm not familiar of sort of a similar situation, certainly in like the consumer tech space, right, Like, nothing like this has ever happened from a social networking standpoint. I can say that with a lot of confidence. I'm not like a geopolitical expert when it comes to China and trade and and all that stuff. So perhaps there have been other businesses where there's been discussions like this, But I think this sort of you know, is exemplifies a little bit about like what is so unique about our current moment in time, right like President Trump coming back to office and all of sort of the unusual or untraditional methods that he operates under. Elon Musk and all of the sort of chaos that usually comes with him. This and that you know, we've been talking about for four years, but now is finally kind of coming together at this exact moment in time, when when there's a transition of power. So I do think that this is very unique, very you know, interesting time for both tech but also geopolitics. As you point out, I can't really think of anything off the top of my head at least that that sort of rivals this moment for me.

Yeah, I mean I'm not familiar of sort of a similar situation, certainly in like the consumer tech space, right, Like, nothing like this has ever happened from a social networking standpoint. I can say that with a lot of confidence. I'm not like a geopolitical expert when it comes to China and trade and and all that stuff. So perhaps there have been other businesses where there's been discussions like this, But I think this sort of you know, is exemplifies a little bit about like what is so unique about our current moment in time, right like President Trump coming back to office and all of sort of the unusual or untraditional methods that he operates under. Elon Musk and all of the sort of chaos that usually comes with him. This and that you know, we've been talking about for four years, but now is finally kind of coming together at this exact moment in time, when when there's a transition of power. So I do think that this is very unique, very you know, interesting time for both tech but also geopolitics. As you point out, I can't really think of anything off the top of my head at least that that sort of rivals this moment for me.

Well, and as you hinted at earlier there, it's probably it's hard to think of another prominent American chief executive officer who is as close to China as Elon Musk. Right, he enjoys a very good relationship with Beijing. Tesla was able to open a car factory, you know, quicker than anybody else. They changed the rules effectively for ownership of car factories for Elon Musk, So like you can imagine him being a person that both Beijing could get comfortable with and Trump. Kurt, what about Elon and TikTok. I mean he has said in the past, unless I'm mistaken, and that he wanted X to be more like TikTok, So it seems like there's really a lot of synergy with this proposal.

Well, and as you hinted at earlier there, it's probably it's hard to think of another prominent American chief executive officer who is as close to China as Elon Musk. Right, he enjoys a very good relationship with Beijing. Tesla was able to open a car factory, you know, quicker than anybody else. They changed the rules effectively for ownership of car factories for Elon Musk, So like you can imagine him being a person that both Beijing could get comfortable with and Trump. Kurt, what about Elon and TikTok. I mean he has said in the past, unless I'm mistaken, and that he wanted X to be more like TikTok, So it seems like there's really a lot of synergy with this proposal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean I think if you're Elon, this is like the biggest coup of all time, right, Like you suddenly get one of the most valuable, most exciting, up and coming social networks sort of gift wrapped to you.

I mean I think if you're Elon, this is like the biggest coup of all time, right, Like you suddenly get one of the most valuable, most exciting, up and coming social networks sort of gift wrapped to you.

Right.

Right.

And I think one element of this that we just do not know is, let's pretend this all these stars align max, right, and the Chinese government says, hey, we want Elon to own this, And Trump says, hey, that solves our national security concerns. And Elon says, great. What does a deal actually look like here?

And I think one element of this that we just do not know is, let's pretend this all these stars align max, right, and the Chinese government says, hey, we want Elon to own this, And Trump says, hey, that solves our national security concerns. And Elon says, great. What does a deal actually look like here?

Right?

Right?

Because we know that he is, you know, has a ton of loans that he has taken out over the years that use his Tesla stock as collateral. He's obviously the richest man in the world, no doubt he could find go out and find banks and other investors to help him finance something like this. But as we saw with the Twitter deal, it's not always like quite as easy as like, oh, he's super rich, he can totally do this thing.

Because we know that he is, you know, has a ton of loans that he has taken out over the years that use his Tesla stock as collateral. He's obviously the richest man in the world, no doubt he could find go out and find banks and other investors to help him finance something like this. But as we saw with the Twitter deal, it's not always like quite as easy as like, oh, he's super rich, he can totally do this thing.

Yeah, what would TikTok go for? Like how much?

Yeah, what would TikTok go for? Like how much?

What would be like a reasonable fair market value for Elon Musk to pay.

What would be like a reasonable fair market value for Elon Musk to pay.

So I believe our analysts at Bloomberg have pegged the value of the US business. You know, the US version of TikTok is somewhere between forty and fifty billion dollars. So this is not the kind of thing that you just like pop over to the bank and withdraw from your savings account to make this thing happen. So I do think there, you know, that is a probably significant hurdle. You could imagine perhaps the Chinese government again if the if it ultimately comes down to them saying, hey, this is a deal, we really want this guy to have this. Maybe they give him a sweetheart deal, right, because they know in return they're buying sort of a relationship with Elon Musk that's even greater than the one, as you mentioned that they already have.

So I believe our analysts at Bloomberg have pegged the value of the US business. You know, the US version of TikTok is somewhere between forty and fifty billion dollars. So this is not the kind of thing that you just like pop over to the bank and withdraw from your savings account to make this thing happen. So I do think there, you know, that is a probably significant hurdle. You could imagine perhaps the Chinese government again if the if it ultimately comes down to them saying, hey, this is a deal, we really want this guy to have this. Maybe they give him a sweetheart deal, right, because they know in return they're buying sort of a relationship with Elon Musk that's even greater than the one, as you mentioned that they already have.

I mean, you're using a lot of language that is going to set off alarm bells with critics, right, I mean, the prospect of this hugely successful social media company just being handed to Elon Musk, a politically connected both to the the leaders of both countries, Like, I mean, this sounds like just a I don't even want to bring up anti trust, but like hugely problematic in terms of self dealing, in terms of all the concerns that supposedly prompted Elon Muck to buy Twitter in the first place.

I mean, you're using a lot of language that is going to set off alarm bells with critics, right, I mean, the prospect of this hugely successful social media company just being handed to Elon Musk, a politically connected both to the the leaders of both countries, Like, I mean, this sounds like just a I don't even want to bring up anti trust, but like hugely problematic in terms of self dealing, in terms of all the concerns that supposedly prompted Elon Muck to buy Twitter in the first place.

Yeah, well, I want to be clear, like I'm sort of a game scenario planning here, right. I Like what we know is in the story, which is what we talked about at the very beginning, Max, which is like, these discussions are happening at the top levels of the Chinese government. That's really where we are right now, right. Everything else is sort of like a hypothetical situation. So I do want to be clear about that. But I also think it's fair for people to say, WHOA, this feels a little bit questionable, This feels like a little bit you know, maybe even scary, right, because it's not as we've talked about on this pod, and as y'all have covered much closer even than I have, Like, Elon is someone who has relationships with a lot of world leaders, not all of them necessarily friends of the United States in the traditional sense, right, And so I think there is a feeling from some of Elon's critics in particular, that like this idea of him having any type of advanced relationship with the Chinese government could be a questionable thing, a questionable decision for the Trump administration to make. So there's a lot that we don't know.

Yeah, well, I want to be clear, like I'm sort of a game scenario planning here, right. I Like what we know is in the story, which is what we talked about at the very beginning, Max, which is like, these discussions are happening at the top levels of the Chinese government. That's really where we are right now, right. Everything else is sort of like a hypothetical situation. So I do want to be clear about that. But I also think it's fair for people to say, WHOA, this feels a little bit questionable, This feels like a little bit you know, maybe even scary, right, because it's not as we've talked about on this pod, and as y'all have covered much closer even than I have, Like, Elon is someone who has relationships with a lot of world leaders, not all of them necessarily friends of the United States in the traditional sense, right, And so I think there is a feeling from some of Elon's critics in particular, that like this idea of him having any type of advanced relationship with the Chinese government could be a questionable thing, a questionable decision for the Trump administration to make. So there's a lot that we don't know.

I mean, what happens now, what are you going to be watching over the next week or so as we proceed to the inauguration and then the deadline for TikTok potentially being banned from the US.

I mean, what happens now, what are you going to be watching over the next week or so as we proceed to the inauguration and then the deadline for TikTok potentially being banned from the US.

Yeah, So, I mean, the most immediate kind of domino to fall here is the Supreme Court ruling. So on Friday of last week, TikTok's lawyers and the US government's lawyers argued before the Supreme Court about whether or not this band should be upheld. We're still waiting for the court to ultimately come up with the decision on that. Now, the expectation is that the law will be upheld, the ban will be upheld, and we will then get to Sunday, this coming Sunday, the nineteenth, and it will go into effect, right, and so that will mean Apple and Google and Oracle like the people who make it possible for a mayors to download this app taking it off of the App Store, no longer supporting sort of the cloud infrastructure for TikTok in the US, and then Monday comes along and President Trump is inaugurated, and suddenly now the ball is sort of in his court. Right, this app has been banned, he said he doesn't want to be banned. What can he do? We don't entirely know. There's a whole bunch of different sort of theories as to what he could do. Could he tell the Justice Department, hey, don't enforce this ban, right, just simply let it happen and don't enforce the law. Could he convince you know, Congress to basically, you know, somehow reverse this law in some way or tweak it so that it's delayed to the point where he can try to negotiate. So I think immediately it's Supreme Court, and then after that it's a lot of we don't know, right because as the one thing we do know is that President Trump is a bit of a wild card, and so it's hard to sit here and really predict what he's going to do. But I think we have to get through the Supreme Court thing this week to really have an idea of what the other options really even are.

Yeah, So, I mean, the most immediate kind of domino to fall here is the Supreme Court ruling. So on Friday of last week, TikTok's lawyers and the US government's lawyers argued before the Supreme Court about whether or not this band should be upheld. We're still waiting for the court to ultimately come up with the decision on that. Now, the expectation is that the law will be upheld, the ban will be upheld, and we will then get to Sunday, this coming Sunday, the nineteenth, and it will go into effect, right, and so that will mean Apple and Google and Oracle like the people who make it possible for a mayors to download this app taking it off of the App Store, no longer supporting sort of the cloud infrastructure for TikTok in the US, and then Monday comes along and President Trump is inaugurated, and suddenly now the ball is sort of in his court. Right, this app has been banned, he said he doesn't want to be banned. What can he do? We don't entirely know. There's a whole bunch of different sort of theories as to what he could do. Could he tell the Justice Department, hey, don't enforce this ban, right, just simply let it happen and don't enforce the law. Could he convince you know, Congress to basically, you know, somehow reverse this law in some way or tweak it so that it's delayed to the point where he can try to negotiate. So I think immediately it's Supreme Court, and then after that it's a lot of we don't know, right because as the one thing we do know is that President Trump is a bit of a wild card, and so it's hard to sit here and really predict what he's going to do. But I think we have to get through the Supreme Court thing this week to really have an idea of what the other options really even are.

All Right, Well, we'll be watching Kurt.

All Right, Well, we'll be watching Kurt.

I assume we'll be checking in on this, you know, as soon as next week, depending on what happens. Thanks again for joining us, and yeah.

I assume we'll be checking in on this, you know, as soon as next week, depending on what happens. Thanks again for joining us, and yeah.

We'll see you soon, my pleasure.

We'll see you soon, my pleasure.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right, let's bring in Josh Green, BusinessWeek's political reporter.

All right, let's bring in Josh Green, BusinessWeek's political reporter.

Josh welcome to Elon Inc.

Josh welcome to Elon Inc.

Good to be back with you.

Good to be back with you.

And Dana Hall Elon Musk reporter and podcast regulator.

And Dana Hall Elon Musk reporter and podcast regulator.

Dana welcome to Elon Inc.

Dana welcome to Elon Inc.

Hey, Max, So, Josh, your book, Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump and the Storming of the Presidency got into basically the rise of Steve Bannon and the influence he had on Trump and trump Ism. I want to play a clip from Bannon's war Room podcast from earlier this month in which Bannon a tax Elon, Let's give it a listen.

Hey, Max, So, Josh, your book, Devil's Bargain, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump and the Storming of the Presidency got into basically the rise of Steve Bannon and the influence he had on Trump and trump Ism. I want to play a clip from Bannon's war Room podcast from earlier this month in which Bannon a tax Elon, Let's give it a listen.

This is the United States of America.

This is the United States of America.

We're not gonna be lectured by a bunch of white guys from South Africa.

We're not gonna be lectured by a bunch of white guys from South Africa.

Don't need it.

Don't need it.

We loving converts.

We loving converts.

But the converts sit in the back and study for years and year and years to make sure you understand the faith, and you understand the nuances of the faith and understand how you can internalize the faith. Don't come up and go to the pulpit in your first week here and start lecturing people about the way things are going to be. If you're gonna do that, we're gonna get and we're gonna rip your face off.

But the converts sit in the back and study for years and year and years to make sure you understand the faith, and you understand the nuances of the faith and understand how you can internalize the faith. Don't come up and go to the pulpit in your first week here and start lecturing people about the way things are going to be. If you're gonna do that, we're gonna get and we're gonna rip your face off.

All right.

All right.

So those are some that's some tough language from see Bannon. Josh, what are the dynamics here? I mean, obviously Bannon doesn't mean it literally, but what does he mean?

So those are some that's some tough language from see Bannon. Josh, what are the dynamics here? I mean, obviously Bannon doesn't mean it literally, but what does he mean?

I mean, look, Bannon, you know, as I wrote in Devil's Part, Bannon was sort of the intellectual architect of a lot of trump Ism and kind of maga economics. He kind of pulled together this stuff into a philosophy and sees himself as the kind of high priest. Is that is that quote sort of reflected the trouble with with Elon from Bannon's standpoint is that he sees him as as a threat, but also it's kind of a useful idiot in terms of being able to or being willing to donate to get Trump elected, to keep him in power, to help Republicans. The real fight, though, is at the central tension in the new Trump administration is shaping up to be between the Bannon camp and the Elon camp. That's the way I think of it, the kind of like analog one point zero populist nationalists, the Bannon guys, and the kind of new breed of Silicon Valley right wing provocateur Elon types, who include a whole crowd of guys David Zachs, Vivek Ramaswami and others who are trying to put their stamp on the incoming Trump administration. And what Bannon's fulminating anger reflects is that there's a big kind of intellectual tug of war going on right now for who is going to control Trump, who is going to be in Trump's ear, and Bannon is doing everything he can to try and ensure that Elon does not become that guy.

I mean, look, Bannon, you know, as I wrote in Devil's Part, Bannon was sort of the intellectual architect of a lot of trump Ism and kind of maga economics. He kind of pulled together this stuff into a philosophy and sees himself as the kind of high priest. Is that is that quote sort of reflected the trouble with with Elon from Bannon's standpoint is that he sees him as as a threat, but also it's kind of a useful idiot in terms of being able to or being willing to donate to get Trump elected, to keep him in power, to help Republicans. The real fight, though, is at the central tension in the new Trump administration is shaping up to be between the Bannon camp and the Elon camp. That's the way I think of it, the kind of like analog one point zero populist nationalists, the Bannon guys, and the kind of new breed of Silicon Valley right wing provocateur Elon types, who include a whole crowd of guys David Zachs, Vivek Ramaswami and others who are trying to put their stamp on the incoming Trump administration. And what Bannon's fulminating anger reflects is that there's a big kind of intellectual tug of war going on right now for who is going to control Trump, who is going to be in Trump's ear, and Bannon is doing everything he can to try and ensure that Elon does not become that guy.

I mean, these are basically the people who, as they see it, built the MAGA movement, and now there's this, you know, new guy who put a lot of money up, but you know, is a newcomer.

I mean, these are basically the people who, as they see it, built the MAGA movement, and now there's this, you know, new guy who put a lot of money up, but you know, is a newcomer.

Essentially.

Essentially.

It didn't didn't believe any of this stuff until very recently. I mean, Dana, I'm kind of curious watching this and particularly watching Bannon bring up critiques that we've heard of Elon Musk, but often from the left, like what do you make of of what we've seen so far.

It didn't didn't believe any of this stuff until very recently. I mean, Dana, I'm kind of curious watching this and particularly watching Bannon bring up critiques that we've heard of Elon Musk, but often from the left, like what do you make of of what we've seen so far.

Well, I have to admit, and I'm Josh, I'm so glad you're here, Like I've kind of lost the plot on this whole like Bannon Musk feud because I sort of see it as like, Okay, you've got like Bannon and Laura Lumer and all these people who were like very central to Trump rise in twenty sixteen, like in one camp, and then you have Elon and David Sachs and all these other kind of tech bros. Is like the Johnny cum latelies right, who are like yeah, right, And so there's like a little bit of like wait, like we were here first, like attention about the newcomers. But isn't it also this big fight about immigration?

Well, I have to admit, and I'm Josh, I'm so glad you're here, Like I've kind of lost the plot on this whole like Bannon Musk feud because I sort of see it as like, Okay, you've got like Bannon and Laura Lumer and all these people who were like very central to Trump rise in twenty sixteen, like in one camp, and then you have Elon and David Sachs and all these other kind of tech bros. Is like the Johnny cum latelies right, who are like yeah, right, And so there's like a little bit of like wait, like we were here first, like attention about the newcomers. But isn't it also this big fight about immigration?

Like I thought that the.

Like I thought that the.

Whole H one B visa issue was central to this feud, and I'm still a little stuck on, like I don't really know what Bannon thinks about H one B visas. I mean, clearly Musk is very pro H one B visa. His companies have thrived because of a lot of talent from elsewhere. You know, Musk always says that like it's like if you're fielding an NBA team. You want to be able to hire the best of the brightest. And so could you maybe walk us through a little bit why immigration is kind of central to this beef.

Whole H one B visa issue was central to this feud, and I'm still a little stuck on, like I don't really know what Bannon thinks about H one B visas. I mean, clearly Musk is very pro H one B visa. His companies have thrived because of a lot of talent from elsewhere. You know, Musk always says that like it's like if you're fielding an NBA team. You want to be able to hire the best of the brightest. And so could you maybe walk us through a little bit why immigration is kind of central to this beef.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. Absolutely.

I Mean the way, like one way to think about it is that like there's going to be a year's long fight now in the Republican Party over what Trump does and what he stands for, and the fight over H one b Visas. It's kind of like the first shots at Fort Sumter in the Civil War, like this, this is where the fight's happening first. It's going to spread to a lot of other areas. So Bannon's complain on H one b Visas is he is a nativist. He is a you know, populous nationalist, is what he calls himself. And he believes that immigrants should not be allowed to come in, including high skilled immigrants, to take these jobs that ought to go to Americans instead. And one little twist Bannon has added lately, he spent four months in prison and befriended a lot of black and Hispanic folks and said, you know, if Elon weren't importing Indian workers, these are abandoned words, you know, guys, like I was hanging out with in prison, Hispanics Blacks would have the opportunities to become trained and hired as engineers. And essentially Bannon's contention is that Elon and his crowd are screwing over hardworking American citizens and privileging foreigners because doing so makes it cheaper and more profitable for them to run their businesses. And to me, like the key quote from Bannon, he gave an interview I think it was to Bright Barton News about a week ago that really kind of laid out his beef with Elon. He said, quote, he will do anything to make sure that any of his companies is protected or has a better deal, or he makes more money his aggregation of wealth and then through wealth power.

I Mean the way, like one way to think about it is that like there's going to be a year's long fight now in the Republican Party over what Trump does and what he stands for, and the fight over H one b Visas. It's kind of like the first shots at Fort Sumter in the Civil War, like this, this is where the fight's happening first. It's going to spread to a lot of other areas. So Bannon's complain on H one b Visas is he is a nativist. He is a you know, populous nationalist, is what he calls himself. And he believes that immigrants should not be allowed to come in, including high skilled immigrants, to take these jobs that ought to go to Americans instead. And one little twist Bannon has added lately, he spent four months in prison and befriended a lot of black and Hispanic folks and said, you know, if Elon weren't importing Indian workers, these are abandoned words, you know, guys, like I was hanging out with in prison, Hispanics Blacks would have the opportunities to become trained and hired as engineers. And essentially Bannon's contention is that Elon and his crowd are screwing over hardworking American citizens and privileging foreigners because doing so makes it cheaper and more profitable for them to run their businesses. And to me, like the key quote from Bannon, he gave an interview I think it was to Bright Barton News about a week ago that really kind of laid out his beef with Elon. He said, quote, he will do anything to make sure that any of his companies is protected or has a better deal, or he makes more money his aggregation of wealth and then through wealth power.

That's what Elon is focused on Bannon.

That's what Elon is focused on Bannon.

And I think that that sort of reflects what's at the heart of a lot of these fights that Bannon thinks Elon isn't a true believer and he's going to have this sort of death match with Elon to try and prevail and hold on to his influencer Trump.

And I think that that sort of reflects what's at the heart of a lot of these fights that Bannon thinks Elon isn't a true believer and he's going to have this sort of death match with Elon to try and prevail and hold on to his influencer Trump.

I mean the thing to me, h one b has been basically like a tech lobbyist issue for a really long time because it's a way for big tech companies to get less expensive engineers, and big tech companies, including Elon Musk right, have been complaining that they don't have enough engineers or whatever. So like, it's kind of interesting because as much as Elon has adopted these sort of like super hard right positions, you know, at the same time this is going on, he's banging the drum on X about Tommy Robinson, who's you know, this this very far right wing British guy who's in prison now, Like he's adopting some issues that are like kind of just normal, like help out my tech company type stuff.

I mean the thing to me, h one b has been basically like a tech lobbyist issue for a really long time because it's a way for big tech companies to get less expensive engineers, and big tech companies, including Elon Musk right, have been complaining that they don't have enough engineers or whatever. So like, it's kind of interesting because as much as Elon has adopted these sort of like super hard right positions, you know, at the same time this is going on, he's banging the drum on X about Tommy Robinson, who's you know, this this very far right wing British guy who's in prison now, Like he's adopting some issues that are like kind of just normal, like help out my tech company type stuff.

And that is what I mean, that's what Bannon's keying in on.

And that is what I mean, that's what Bannon's keying in on.

Yeah, And I mean the weird thing about all this is I did a story for Bloomberg News last week as part of a team that looked at Elon trying to extend his political influence into Europe, getting involved in politics there, and I ended up interviewing Bannon for the piece, and Bannon supports what Elon is doing in Europe. He said, you know, the enemy of my enemy is my is my friend, and therefore I'm four square behind Elon going after these kind of center left snooty European governments, and I hope he puts as much you know, money and manpower and tech savvy into those as he did into the US election. So, you know, I think that Bannon views Elon as a threat, but he also views him as an instrument that he'd like to be able to wield in a lot of political fights, both in the US and abroad.

Yeah, And I mean the weird thing about all this is I did a story for Bloomberg News last week as part of a team that looked at Elon trying to extend his political influence into Europe, getting involved in politics there, and I ended up interviewing Bannon for the piece, and Bannon supports what Elon is doing in Europe. He said, you know, the enemy of my enemy is my is my friend, and therefore I'm four square behind Elon going after these kind of center left snooty European governments, and I hope he puts as much you know, money and manpower and tech savvy into those as he did into the US election. So, you know, I think that Bannon views Elon as a threat, but he also views him as an instrument that he'd like to be able to wield in a lot of political fights, both in the US and abroad.

Didn't Bannon kind of walk back some of his comments today at some kind of political event, you know, he's like, well, he like deserves a seat, you know, he's urged a seat at the table because he strokes this big check.

Didn't Bannon kind of walk back some of his comments today at some kind of political event, you know, he's like, well, he like deserves a seat, you know, he's urged a seat at the table because he strokes this big check.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, look, Ben, let's let's let's back up a little bit. We talked about this on this podcast before. And be clear, Bannon was wrong about Elon Musk. I mean he told me a year ago, try two years ago, that Elon was never going to be a big player in right wing maga politics because he was a cheap skate, as Bannon put it, he'll never stroke a check. Well, Elon ended up stroking a lot of big checks during the last presidential race, and his promise to keep stroking them for all sorts of Republican incumbents Republican challengers to help Trump and Republicans maintain a grip on power.

Well, look, Ben, let's let's let's back up a little bit. We talked about this on this podcast before. And be clear, Bannon was wrong about Elon Musk. I mean he told me a year ago, try two years ago, that Elon was never going to be a big player in right wing maga politics because he was a cheap skate, as Bannon put it, he'll never stroke a check. Well, Elon ended up stroking a lot of big checks during the last presidential race, and his promise to keep stroking them for all sorts of Republican incumbents Republican challengers to help Trump and Republicans maintain a grip on power.

So Bannon has had to backpedal a little bit on that.

So Bannon has had to backpedal a little bit on that.

And the fact of the matter is that the fact that Elon is willing to do this has really bought him a prime position in Trump's inner circle. Like I expected Trump to very quickly tire of Elon and his annex and you get a lot of leaks from folks, and I've heard this myself along the lines of, you know, Trump doesn't want any co stars. Trump is sick of Elond. I had a source in the administration the other day say that, you know, Trump asked him if Elon was on the spectrum, And so you can tell there's an annoyance factor there. And yet because Elon is both willing to give money and has this big and an influential platform in Twitter and X, you know, Trump doesn't want to throw him overboard. And so he's there and he's influential, and he's someone that Bannon is going to have to contend with.

And the fact of the matter is that the fact that Elon is willing to do this has really bought him a prime position in Trump's inner circle. Like I expected Trump to very quickly tire of Elon and his annex and you get a lot of leaks from folks, and I've heard this myself along the lines of, you know, Trump doesn't want any co stars. Trump is sick of Elond. I had a source in the administration the other day say that, you know, Trump asked him if Elon was on the spectrum, And so you can tell there's an annoyance factor there. And yet because Elon is both willing to give money and has this big and an influential platform in Twitter and X, you know, Trump doesn't want to throw him overboard. And so he's there and he's influential, and he's someone that Bannon is going to have to contend with.

To me, one of the things that's been most interesting about this is the extent to which Bannon and like Laura Lumer and some.

To me, one of the things that's been most interesting about this is the extent to which Bannon and like Laura Lumer and some.

Of these right wing figures.

Of these right wing figures.

They kind of have Elon's number, Like they're bringing up issues that I think sting a little bit right, Like Bannon and Lumer have brought up issues around China, you know, Elon's proximity to Beijing, Elon's like the history around Tesla. One of the things that Bannon has said is that, you know, Elon's goal is to become the world's first trillionaire. And Dan, I'm kind of curious, like, do you buy that as a motivation? Is that is that his goal is? Is Steve Bannon? I mean, he's a perceptive guy. He might be right about this.

They kind of have Elon's number, Like they're bringing up issues that I think sting a little bit right, Like Bannon and Lumer have brought up issues around China, you know, Elon's proximity to Beijing, Elon's like the history around Tesla. One of the things that Bannon has said is that, you know, Elon's goal is to become the world's first trillionaire. And Dan, I'm kind of curious, like, do you buy that as a motivation? Is that is that his goal is? Is Steve Bannon? I mean, he's a perceptive guy. He might be right about this.

Yeah, but I think that people need to recognize that, like Musk is amassing all this wealth for his number one goal, which is to get to Mars, and like all of his wealth accumulation is really in service of the Mars mission, which has been like the animating force in his life since he was like twelve years old or thirteen or whatever. And read Isaac Asimov. I mean, all everything that Elon does is about getting to Mars. He is a man in a hurry. He really wants to get to Mars before he dies. He would like to, you know, so It's like all of this accumulation is in the service of that. It's not like to be rich just to be rich. It's like to be rich so that he can colonize another planet. And I think that like you're looking at Tesla's stock price, and you're looking at the valuation of SpaceX, and you're looking at now, you know, as we just had in our first segment, the possibility that must could buy TikTok at the US, and you're looking at you know, all of his other companies, and Yeah, I could totally see it. I would be shocked if anyone else became the first trillion air besides him.

Yeah, but I think that people need to recognize that, like Musk is amassing all this wealth for his number one goal, which is to get to Mars, and like all of his wealth accumulation is really in service of the Mars mission, which has been like the animating force in his life since he was like twelve years old or thirteen or whatever. And read Isaac Asimov. I mean, all everything that Elon does is about getting to Mars. He is a man in a hurry. He really wants to get to Mars before he dies. He would like to, you know, so It's like all of this accumulation is in the service of that. It's not like to be rich just to be rich. It's like to be rich so that he can colonize another planet. And I think that like you're looking at Tesla's stock price, and you're looking at the valuation of SpaceX, and you're looking at now, you know, as we just had in our first segment, the possibility that must could buy TikTok at the US, and you're looking at you know, all of his other companies, and Yeah, I could totally see it. I would be shocked if anyone else became the first trillion air besides him.

So, Josh, let's talk about Doge for a second. I mean this relates to the banned stuff. We've seen a couple of reports come out around Doge, one in the New York Times last night suggesting that Elon would have office space in the Executive Office building. Now I'm curious, just one of the things that Bannon has been railing about is kind of trying to keep Musk from having too much influence over Trump.

So, Josh, let's talk about Doge for a second. I mean this relates to the banned stuff. We've seen a couple of reports come out around Doge, one in the New York Times last night suggesting that Elon would have office space in the Executive Office building. Now I'm curious, just one of the things that Bannon has been railing about is kind of trying to keep Musk from having too much influence over Trump.

Is this good real estate or bad real estate?

Is this good real estate or bad real estate?

Like?

Like?

How good is it to have an office in the Executive Office building, Like, what does this tell us about how much influence Elon has and how important Doge is, at least in the mind of Trump and the people who are close to him.

How good is it to have an office in the Executive Office building, Like, what does this tell us about how much influence Elon has and how important Doge is, at least in the mind of Trump and the people who are close to him.

Well, let's back, it's good to have that kind of real estate because it means you're a short walk away from the West Wing and the president. And fights over real estate and access go back probably a couple hundred years. In US politics, every administration is you know, everybody is jockeying to get close to the president. And that's especially true when you have a president like Donald Trump or like Ronald Reagan, who's particularly prone to listening to the advice of the last person to have his ear. And so Bannon's big fear. We talked about this the other day. He said, mark my words, Elon is not going to get a blue pass to the White House. A blue pass is the best pass. It gives you all access, it gives you drop in privileges and the president of the Oval Office. Bannon doesn't want that to happen because he knows that if Elon is sitting there talking in Trump's ear, then Elon is the one with influence and Bannon is not.

Well, let's back, it's good to have that kind of real estate because it means you're a short walk away from the West Wing and the president. And fights over real estate and access go back probably a couple hundred years. In US politics, every administration is you know, everybody is jockeying to get close to the president. And that's especially true when you have a president like Donald Trump or like Ronald Reagan, who's particularly prone to listening to the advice of the last person to have his ear. And so Bannon's big fear. We talked about this the other day. He said, mark my words, Elon is not going to get a blue pass to the White House. A blue pass is the best pass. It gives you all access, it gives you drop in privileges and the president of the Oval Office. Bannon doesn't want that to happen because he knows that if Elon is sitting there talking in Trump's ear, then Elon is the one with influence and Bannon is not.

Wait, so if you have the office in the Executive Office building. Do you get the blue pass or is that Are there levels here?

Wait, so if you have the office in the Executive Office building. Do you get the blue pass or is that Are there levels here?

No, that's separate.

No, that's separate.

Look, the Executive Office Building is the building kind of like it's a short walk from the West Wing, but it's not an office in the West Wing. I mean, what you ideally want to have is what Bannon had when Trump was first selected in twenty seventeen. That's in office in the West wing of the White House, you know, ten feet from the Oval office, where you can kind of drop in and you're talking to the president all day.

Look, the Executive Office Building is the building kind of like it's a short walk from the West Wing, but it's not an office in the West Wing. I mean, what you ideally want to have is what Bannon had when Trump was first selected in twenty seventeen. That's in office in the West wing of the White House, you know, ten feet from the Oval office, where you can kind of drop in and you're talking to the president all day.

You can control the paper flow of what.

You can control the paper flow of what.

He sees, presuming the president reads, which I guess we shouldn't presume anything, but in a normal White House, that's that's what you want, is you want to be able to control the flow of information. And that's the big concern that Bannon has with Elon that if he's allowed to be in Trump's inner orbit to have his ear, then he's going to convince Trump. As Trump said, you know a couple of weeks ago, I think that every foreign college graduate in the US should have a visa staple to his diploma. That's the kind of language that Steve Bannon and his ilk have nightmares about that's the sort of thing that Elon's pushing for and that a lot of other people frankly would love.

He sees, presuming the president reads, which I guess we shouldn't presume anything, but in a normal White House, that's that's what you want, is you want to be able to control the flow of information. And that's the big concern that Bannon has with Elon that if he's allowed to be in Trump's inner orbit to have his ear, then he's going to convince Trump. As Trump said, you know a couple of weeks ago, I think that every foreign college graduate in the US should have a visa staple to his diploma. That's the kind of language that Steve Bannon and his ilk have nightmares about that's the sort of thing that Elon's pushing for and that a lot of other people frankly would love.

To have him.

To have him.

Yeah, that's that's tech lobbyist language.

Yeah, that's that's tech lobbyist language.

Well, tech lobbyist language.

Well, tech lobbyist language.

And you know, look, a lot of kind of you know, pro business folks on the left and the right would love to have you know, more foreign educated students stay in the US help grow US productivity. But it's absolutely not what a Steve Bannon or a Steven.

And you know, look, a lot of kind of you know, pro business folks on the left and the right would love to have you know, more foreign educated students stay in the US help grow US productivity. But it's absolutely not what a Steve Bannon or a Steven.

Miller wants to have.

Miller wants to have.

And so the fact that Doze is going to be in the Executive Office building means like, you know, it's sort of a formal designation. You're part of this administration, and you're very close to the West wing, but you're not all the way into the West wing. So there's still gonna be a question of is Elon going to like do what normal EOB workers do and like get your coffee at Starbucks every morning and sort of trudge up to your office and work there all day. I kind of doubt it, So, you know, I wouldn't read too much meaning into like where their office space is going to be. But you know, again, it's another kind of like move on the chess board of Elon trying to get closer to Trump and Bannon trying to checkmate him and sort of knock all his pieces off the table.

And so the fact that Doze is going to be in the Executive Office building means like, you know, it's sort of a formal designation. You're part of this administration, and you're very close to the West wing, but you're not all the way into the West wing. So there's still gonna be a question of is Elon going to like do what normal EOB workers do and like get your coffee at Starbucks every morning and sort of trudge up to your office and work there all day. I kind of doubt it, So, you know, I wouldn't read too much meaning into like where their office space is going to be. But you know, again, it's another kind of like move on the chess board of Elon trying to get closer to Trump and Bannon trying to checkmate him and sort of knock all his pieces off the table.

It isn't.

It isn't.

I mean, Elon is close to Trump. Like Elon has been camped out at mar A Lago, like renting some little cottage like right there in Palm Beach. He's like constantly flying back and forth. He's been at mari A Lago like ever since the election, and he'll probably be at inauguration on Monday, I would assume, Like, and they talk to each other directly, Like there's no intermediary between Elon and Donald. They like are texting each other and talking to each other all the time. So like, isn't Elon Musk closer to Trump than Bannon is at this point?

I mean, Elon is close to Trump. Like Elon has been camped out at mar A Lago, like renting some little cottage like right there in Palm Beach. He's like constantly flying back and forth. He's been at mari A Lago like ever since the election, and he'll probably be at inauguration on Monday, I would assume, Like, and they talk to each other directly, Like there's no intermediary between Elon and Donald. They like are texting each other and talking to each other all the time. So like, isn't Elon Musk closer to Trump than Bannon is at this point?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Look, you know, I think what happens when a president goes into the White House is that the situation changes. The people around him are very very tightly controlled, not just by the Secret Service, but you know, if Trump needs to go down to the situation room, like Elon can't just sort of follow him in.

Look, you know, I think what happens when a president goes into the White House is that the situation changes. The people around him are very very tightly controlled, not just by the Secret Service, but you know, if Trump needs to go down to the situation room, like Elon can't just sort of follow him in.

There are rules that even Trump and.

There are rules that even Trump and.

Elon can't flout, you know, And a lot of the challenge for Susie Wiles, President Trump's incoming chief of staff is going to be and this is true in the last Trump administration, controlling who has access to the president. If you let enough crazies in there, if you let Laura Lumer in there, if you let Rudy Giuliani in there, if you let all these kind of wacko election denihilists you know who were in there kind of causing chaos last time around, the things pretty quickly go off the rails. And that's not what the kind of serious people in trus Orbit want to happen. It's also not what like Bannon and the MAGA hardcore people want to happen. So it's not going to be quite as easy for Elon to drop in on Trump in the White House as it is in mar A Lago, where there's kind of like an open door policy and any rich person or celebrity it can just kind of come trapesing in and shout up the President.

Elon can't flout, you know, And a lot of the challenge for Susie Wiles, President Trump's incoming chief of staff is going to be and this is true in the last Trump administration, controlling who has access to the president. If you let enough crazies in there, if you let Laura Lumer in there, if you let Rudy Giuliani in there, if you let all these kind of wacko election denihilists you know who were in there kind of causing chaos last time around, the things pretty quickly go off the rails. And that's not what the kind of serious people in trus Orbit want to happen. It's also not what like Bannon and the MAGA hardcore people want to happen. So it's not going to be quite as easy for Elon to drop in on Trump in the White House as it is in mar A Lago, where there's kind of like an open door policy and any rich person or celebrity it can just kind of come trapesing in and shout up the President.

I think it'll be a little tougher this summer.

I think it'll be a little tougher this summer.

Else, I just want you to know, both of you, you have access to me unfettered. Anytime to Max, I will I will pick up the phone, the blue pass to my intellect.

Else, I just want you to know, both of you, you have access to me unfettered. Anytime to Max, I will I will pick up the phone, the blue pass to my intellect.

Finally, we're going to have an update from the world of sports E sports.

Finally, we're going to have an update from the world of sports E sports.

Actually, we talked about Musk's very, very high ranking in the game Diablo. For Josh this may come as news to you, but he has apparently spent a huge amount of time.

Actually, we talked about Musk's very, very high ranking in the game Diablo. For Josh this may come as news to you, but he has apparently spent a huge amount of time.

Playing this video game, playing video games.

Playing this video game, playing video games.

He streams video games, and during our year end specials, Ryan Broderick, our guest, suggested that Musk might have a ghost player. He might have someone essentially juicing his video game stats, getting him better in the in the ratings so he could like look better in.

He streams video games, and during our year end specials, Ryan Broderick, our guest, suggested that Musk might have a ghost player. He might have someone essentially juicing his video game stats, getting him better in the in the ratings so he could like look better in.

The world of Diablo. Now there's news here.

The world of Diablo. Now there's news here.

There's a news development, and I just didn't want to let this podcast end without bringing it up. So Musk streamed himself playing another game. It's called Path of Exile two and it basically he was sort of clumsy about it in a way that sent a bunch of content creators into a frenzy. The sort of leader of this of these whistleblowers or would be whistleblowers, was a guy named Quinn sixty nine TV. Quinn sixty nine TV identified behavior that seemed inconsistent with having reached such a high level, Dana, I just got to ask you, is Elon Musk doing video game doping?

There's a news development, and I just didn't want to let this podcast end without bringing it up. So Musk streamed himself playing another game. It's called Path of Exile two and it basically he was sort of clumsy about it in a way that sent a bunch of content creators into a frenzy. The sort of leader of this of these whistleblowers or would be whistleblowers, was a guy named Quinn sixty nine TV. Quinn sixty nine TV identified behavior that seemed inconsistent with having reached such a high level, Dana, I just got to ask you, is Elon Musk doing video game doping?

Wow?

Wow?

Well, you know this is the investigative like reporting line that I think we have just really put top of mind as we head into twenty twenty five. I mean, Elon is a gamer, right, He's always been a video gamer. Is how he unwinds.

Well, you know this is the investigative like reporting line that I think we have just really put top of mind as we head into twenty twenty five. I mean, Elon is a gamer, right, He's always been a video gamer. Is how he unwinds.

I mean a lot of.

I mean a lot of.

His references are to video games. He is like fundamentally like a thirteen year old boy in terms of so much it wouldn't surprise me. But I don't have definitive proof. And I think that he often plays video games when he's like on his plane and at weird hours and he's streaming because he's trying to like gain impressions and like make X be this big thing. And so there's a lot of motivations as to why I don't have definitive proof, just like I don't have definitive proof about Adrian Dittman.

His references are to video games. He is like fundamentally like a thirteen year old boy in terms of so much it wouldn't surprise me. But I don't have definitive proof. And I think that he often plays video games when he's like on his plane and at weird hours and he's streaming because he's trying to like gain impressions and like make X be this big thing. And so there's a lot of motivations as to why I don't have definitive proof, just like I don't have definitive proof about Adrian Dittman.

Josh, if this scandal proves to be true, how damaging do you think it'll be to the incoming administration? I mean, is this this is gonna be the thing that finally does Trump ban after all these years?

Josh, if this scandal proves to be true, how damaging do you think it'll be to the incoming administration? I mean, is this this is gonna be the thing that finally does Trump ban after all these years?

Yeah, this will be like Watergate for sure.

Yeah, this will be like Watergate for sure.

No.

No.

I love the fact, by the way, that there's like video game truthers out there kind of like examining his playing style and drawing these conclusions about what's real and what's not real. But I don't know, Maybe maybe Congress can appoint a special panel to investigate and get to the bottom of this.

I love the fact, by the way, that there's like video game truthers out there kind of like examining his playing style and drawing these conclusions about what's real and what's not real. But I don't know, Maybe maybe Congress can appoint a special panel to investigate and get to the bottom of this.

Yeah, I mean, this is one of the problems with Elon controlling Doge. This would be a perfect problem for DOGE to tackle. But anyway, Yeah, I tried to dig into this and honestly did not know enough about the world of virtual goods to be able to evaluate the claims. But listeners, we can promise you we will be following this story, and you know, if you have thoughts about this or any of the more serious topics we discussed on the podcast, you can email us Eloninc. At Bloomberg dot Net. Josh Dana, thank you for being here.

Yeah, I mean, this is one of the problems with Elon controlling Doge. This would be a perfect problem for DOGE to tackle. But anyway, Yeah, I tried to dig into this and honestly did not know enough about the world of virtual goods to be able to evaluate the claims. But listeners, we can promise you we will be following this story, and you know, if you have thoughts about this or any of the more serious topics we discussed on the podcast, you can email us Eloninc. At Bloomberg dot Net. Josh Dana, thank you for being here.

Thank you. Yes.

Thank you. Yes.

This episode was produced by Stacey Wong. Anna Maserakas is our editor and Rayhan Harmansi, our senior editor. The idea for this very show also came from Rayhon Blake Maples handles engineering and Dave Purcell fact checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson.

This episode was produced by Stacey Wong. Anna Maserakas is our editor and Rayhan Harmansi, our senior editor. The idea for this very show also came from Rayhon Blake Maples handles engineering and Dave Purcell fact checks. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson.

The Elon Inc.

The Elon Inc.

Theme is written and performed by Taka Yazuzawa and Alex Sagiera. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to Joel Weber and Bradstone. I'm Max Chafkin. If you have a in it, rate and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us and we will see you next week.

Theme is written and performed by Taka Yazuzawa and Alex Sagiera. Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to Joel Weber and Bradstone. I'm Max Chafkin. If you have a in it, rate and review our show, it'll help other listeners find us and we will see you next week.