Ed Stetzer LiveThe chief reason we exist is to glorify and enjoy God. But for many, God remains a vague idea or a super-sized projection of ourselves into the sky. Ed Stetzer sits down with Biola's Thaddeus Williams to talk about his book, Revering God and how apologetics, church history, Scripture and the world around us, can deepen our understanding and enjoyment of God on Ed Stetzer Live.
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Well, this is Ed Stetzer live and this and every Saturday at this time I am just. I was just thinking about this. I was driving over to the studio here. I broadcast from Mariner's Church, and I was just thinking as I got over to the studio this morning, how thankful I am that I get to be with you this and every Saturday at this time and almost all the time live. That's why we call it Ed Stetzer live. Occasionally pre-recorded, but, but but I love the calls I was I was bragging this week about some of the callers that we get some of the best callers that, uh, that are out there. So we're super thankful for you. Uh, 250 stations and outlets across the country, coast to coast online. I'm surprised how many of you listen as a podcast as well. You can just subscribe to this show as a podcast. If you go to Ed Stetzer Live.com, click through Moody Radio app. You can actually subscribe to all the Moody Radio programs as well. And of course, we're on Moody Radio partners and affiliates all across the country. And today we have a guest that is a friend and a relatively new friend. We served together at the Talbot School of Theology. I guess I should say I should introduce myself. I'm Ed Stetzer, I'm the dean of the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, and my guest is Thaddeus Williams. He's an assistant professor of systematic theology for the Talbot School of Theology at Biola University. Written several books, including today's book. We're going to have a conversation about called Revering God. He's taught philosophy and literature at Saddleback College, jurisprudence at Trinity Law School, and lectures Worldview studies at Liberty Fellowships in Switzerland and Holland. And we're so glad, Thaddeus, to have you here on the program.
Hey, it's a joy to be back with you.
So. Well, good, good. Well, we we we we've done this before. Uh, we had I remember the first time that we, uh, that we did it. It didn't work. And then we did it once, and it did work. Am I getting that correctly, or am I just, like, dreaming different things?
That was, I don't know, maybe a year or so ago. go?
All right, all right. Well, good. Well, good. I'm glad we got it all. We got it all working and happening. So good. Okay. Well, so, Thaddeus, you have, um, written a book, which I think is fascinating. We talked about a little bit about it this week. Um, the I think for a lot of people, the idea of revering God almost as like, of course we Revere God. Why? I mean, why would we need to write something about that? What what has happened? Uh, in your mind, you're the author of this new book, Revering God. What has happened? That we need a book to remind us about revering God?
Sure. Well, biblically, I think, uh, the fact that the command to Revere God to have. What in Hebrew is yirah the fear of the Lord. Um, clearly the ancient audience needed reminders, because it's a command that pops up over 300 times. So I think, uh, in today's world, as many times as we can be reminded that, you know, as Westminster Catechism, the chief end of man to glorify and enjoy God. Having a big God is a constant needed reminder. Because if you're at all like me, it's so easy to slide back into sort of being the center of our own universes. Um, so I think that's part of it is just default. Fallen human nature constantly sucks us back into self-centeredness. But on top of that, part of the inspiration was just looking at the the theological state of the church and how small our view of God has become. And I'm sure you could speak to that. I know you have worked with state of the church. You know, they found, for example, that are actually at Arizona University, Christian University, that 41% of senior pastors, 28% of associate associate pastors, 13% of teaching pastors in a dismal 4% of executive pastors adhere to a basic Christian worldview. And so I read stats like that. And this isn't, you know, advanced theology. This is do you have a basic, basically big view of God? And the numbers are so dismal that I felt compelled. We need to step up our theological game as a church.
Yeah. And I think for me, and of course I should say I don't know those stats, but I should say that, um, for me, um, I probably had my theological view of the the bigness of God. And by the way, the full title of the book is Revering God How to Marvel at Your Maker. And, and but I probably had that big view with the pursuit of God. In fact, you mentioned some of these in here, um, or Packers knowing God. And so, um, it appears and these become classics. I mean, and it seems like. Well, of course. And R.C. Sproul is the holiness of God. Uh, it seems like those like the pursuit of God, of course we should pursue God, but there's something that we needed to be reminded. And I think that's one of the things I like about your book, is you're reminding us how to marvel at our maker. So what does that look like? Does that mean, like we're laying down outside looking at the stars, thinking how awesome God is? Or is that reading our Bible? What does that look like?
Yes and yes. And and a lot more. So part of my conviction in writing this was, you know, as a theology professor at Biola and Talbot, I spent a lot of my time with my nose buried deep in some fat systematic theology text. And many of them you come away reading with maybe some some fancy big words added to your vocabulary. Um, but a lot of them, I would walk away and not have a deeper sense of awe and reverence for God. I just maybe mastered Subpoint two of a nine point syllogism, but it wasn't Doxological. It didn't draw me into worship. It didn't draw me into reverence. Now, some theologians, uh, have nailed it. I think when I read guys like Herman Bavinck. When I read guys like Abraham Kuyper, uh, even reading, uh, Wayne Grudem reading B.B. Warfield, Charles Hodge, there's, as you mentioned, J.I. Packer, A.W. Tozer, there are books on God. There's a certain sort of sub genre within theology of books that you get a sense of. I'm on sacred ground here. I'm getting closer to an infinitely glorious being, the kind of being that's beholding led Isaiah to cup his mouth and say, woe is me. Um, and so I included in this book in terms of how to actually marvel at our maker. Um, there's probably over 50 suggestions on what that can look like in daily life that might include things like going on a hike. It might include things like laying on your back and looking up at the stars. First and foremost, it includes meeting God in the text of Scripture. It includes revering God in community, getting together in the local body of flesh and blood believers, and diving into His word. And um, to me, one of the most practical ways here, and it's sort of a bugaboo of mine, is in many churches, I find, uh, because I speak all over the country at different churches, that the power of revering God corporately. That when we are singing the same truth about God out loud, melodically, at the same time, in the same space, there's power there. It has a way of pulling us out of our own, our own heads, or what David Foster Wallace called our little skull sized kingdoms. Um, and what I find is oftentimes the volume. If I could give a word to the sound guys out there across the world, a lot of our worship is dialed up to 11 so that you can't hear the plumber singing in front of you. You can't hear the schoolteacher singing behind you, you can't hear your spouse singing next to you. And I would say there's real power in turning it from 11 down to like a seven, so that we can actually hear. There's power in hearing our neighbors and our families Revere God out loud together.
Fascinating, fascinating. So we're going to continue our conversation in just a moment with Andy Williams. Let me tell you a couple of other things that we're going to be doing as well. We're going to be taking your calls and you can call in at at our number (877) 548-3675. Again that's (877) 548-3675. We also actually have seven copies of the book Revering God to give out. Again, the full title is Revering God How to Marvel at your maker, which we're going to start our conversation and take your questions, because I think it may be one way to describe the book. It's sort of like an accessible devotional, uh, systematic theology. Uh, and we'll kind of walk through some of that with you. Maybe you got questions about how to how to read theology, how to how to think biblically and more. Our number again is (877) 548-3675. That is just out of interest. This is more of an accessible. We'll talk about what a systematic theology is. What's your favorite systematic theology? Who's your favorite systematic theologian? What book do you use when you teach systematic theology? Right on the spot. Right here.
Put me on the spot. Oh, that's that's so hard to answer. I gotta go with, uh, Bob.
I gotta go because, like, everyone has just recently discovered Bob. I mean, it's like this, you know, he's got a whole great missiological bent to him, so that is the right choice. Thaddeus Williams, our guest. We're going to continue our conversation with him. And your calls. (483) 675-8775. 483675. Remember, we're giving away some copies of the book, and we don't just give away like, copies of the book to, like, random people. It's to call up and say, I'd like a copy of the book, but we give copies of the book to people who call with brilliant questions. Again, that's (877) 548-3675. Thaddeus Williams is our guest. Your calls are going to be our focus, and we're going to talk about his book, Revering God. And I've got some hard questions. You know, he didn't want to answer that last one. Imagine the questions that are coming up. So stay with us at Ed Stetzer live one more time. The phone number for you to call (877) 548-3675. Okay. We're back. Ed Stetzer live. Continuing our conversation with Thaddeus Williams, we're talking about his new book, Revering God How to Marvel at Your maker. He's actually written other books as well, and I first encountered him when I read his book on social justice, which was something we ended up using in the D.min. program at Wheaton College, where I was a dean and professor at the time. It's confronting injustice without compromising truth. 12 Questions Christians Should Ask About Social Justice. And of course, we also had him on on the radio program to talk about his book. His last book, The Man in the book of the Month Club. His last book was Don't Follow Your Heart Boldly Breaking the Ten Commandments of Self Worship. So okay, we'll continue our conversation. We're going to the calls because we got some good callers. Again our number is (877) 548-3675. We're going to go to Mark in Wisconsin. Mark you will be you're live on the air with your question or comment. Go right ahead.
Yeah. Well thank you for taking my call. Um, let me preface preface my question first. I grew up in a church where. And it was a good Bible teaching, gospel preaching, church. And, you know, we were always taught, um, the sanctuary was a place set apart for the worship of God. There was never allowed any food or water in the sanctuary. And I also like the fact that when you walked into it, there was an attitude of worship. And, uh, many times a time of preparation for worship in the sanctuary. And nowadays, um, even the church I go to now, uh, kids and parents are coming in with soft drinks and coffees and, uh, they have their cell phones on. But, I mean, that's fine if you're looking at Scripture, but a lot of times I see it's not. And the kids see this. It's a bad example. I think it's an insult, um, before God to approach worship in this way. What do you think?
Well, same way, but hey, but hey, on the line to Mark, we're going to give you a copy of Revering God. But, that is. What do you think?
Yeah. When you ask your question, I just think of so many biblical examples of the sense of being on holy ground and the Yarra, the fear, the reverence that comes from that all over the Old Testament, whether we're talking about, you know, Moses at the burning bush or whether we're talking about the the priests in the inner sanctum of the temple, uh, and the, the fear that went with the Holy of Holies. And so the question of, have we have we lost a sense in the spaces we create to worship together? Yeah. I have a hard time disagreeing with you. Um, I think something we want to be very careful of is, um, not creating some kind of 11th commandments that, um, all of a sudden, you know, honor your mother and father, you know, don't covet. And we're going to add thou shalt never drink coffee. Uh, in a in a sanctuary. Um, I think there's biblical principles to inform how a church approaches those. Um, I want to err on the side of, uh, unity here and not creating, you know, unnecessary lines of of schism or division, but in terms of your, your core sense that are we taking being in God's presence seriously and are there really practical ways we can raise the bar there? And I love that you brought up kids there watching like eagles with the grown ups are doing in the room. And if we're, you know, scrolling through our X feed or we're just we got to see who just facebooked us. Um, we're sending a message that whatever is on our little glowing rectangle is somehow more worthy of our attention than the infinite, infinite God of the universe. And universe. And I think that's that's a problem. So maybe, um, a helpful step forward would be, um, rather than a top down solution of let's just go and complain to pastors around America. Um, let's start from the bottom up, and everybody, myself included. Um, search our own hearts and ask the Holy Spirit to bring conviction where conviction is needed, and make sure we're modeling for each other and the next generation. Something of reverence in, uh, even things like how we dress on Sunday morning. Even things on, uh, whether our phones are with us or silenced, um, these things matter.
You know, Thaddeus, um, dress volume too loud. You're basically a 74 year old man in, uh, a younger man's.
Well, hey, I busted my. You know, I busted my leg playing basketball last semester, so I have a new hip. So I think, medically, that that makes me a 74 year old man.
Okay, now, I don't want to. I don't want all 74 year old men to call me yelling at me. But but I'm just having a little fun. So because I want to I want to drill on this for just a second. Because I do think reverence really matters. But part of the challenge is, is that people tend to find reverence to be what they experienced at an earlier phase in their lives or an earlier culture. But if you go back to that time, people found that experience in many ways irreverent, and they found what they experienced 30, 40, 50 years earlier reverent. And so part of the challenge, for example, let's say music. Well, that music is not reverent or that music's too loud. For example, you know, every generation hates the music of the next generation and thinks it's not appropriate for use in church. So, I mean, Solari didn't really say it's in the movie, but Solari said if Mozart's music in the movie that it had too many notes and it would lead to lust and madness in the listener. But there always is this sense that and now we think of Mozart. We might think that a reverent to play in church, but at the time that was considered irreverent or, for example, the piano or the organ, which was a entertainment and bar instrument. Well, that would be irreverent. Now, when I was at Moody Church, people found the most reverence when we played the organ, which 100 years ago would have deeply offended Christians for playing an organ in church. Sure. So. So how do you separate your cultural preferences now? Again, I'm a missiologist. You're a theologian, so this is a conversation that you would expect us to have. But how do you separate cultural preferences from biblical expressions of reverence? And I'm going to have you answer while I give the phone number one more time. (877) 548-3675. How do you separate culture from actual biblical reverence?
Yeah. Great question. And that's why I wanted to make the point with the previous caller that we need to be careful about, you know, crafting some 11th commandment. Um, because the minute we turn, um, a preference and I don't want to relativize at all and say that, Um, that all worship is equal. Equal in terms of, um, the style. I actually do think, um, there is a difference. But again, because God has a missiologist, you'll resonate with this and every tongue, tribe and nation vision for the gospel. He wants to draw all nations together to into worship and to reverence into your, um, that there is going to be a ton of latitude, uh, and something I hesitate to use the word relativism because it isn't, um, because in different cultures, reverence, as you point out, is manifest differently. So think of, uh, Luther, uh, in his great hymn Mighty Fortress is Our God. Some historians would say, you know, he's borrowing, uh, German, uh, sort of common folk songs. Some people would say he's even borrowing, uh, some of the bar tunes of the day and redeeming them, um, elevating them to, um, to worship. And so I would say there's a deeper question sort of underneath the question, which is we can talk styles, we can talk genre, we can talk volume level levels, we can talk, uh, fashion styles. But to me, when it comes to worship and even higher priority is what is the content of what we're singing. And content can be a powerful way of tapping into reverence. Even if you know the drums do an epic face melting fill before the chorus, even if the guitar has a growly distortion and is hitting power chords. I think the lyrics need to be part of the conversation. And I was at a I took one of my nephews to a Pearl jam concert not too long ago. Uh, a long, long time child of the 90s. Um, so that that grunge rock scene, uh, very much dropped at the right time for me. And when Pearl jam started their set, this was at the LA forum. I looked around me, and not only did I notice that I was surrounded by people with gray hair and with a gray beard, I was like, okay, these are my people. Um. I looked around and I saw grown men weeping at just the power of the sound in that room. And there's something to a sound. And the whole audience, there's, you know, ten, 10,000 people all singing the lyrics at the same time. So even, uh, lyrics that were, um, the song they were singing is called Yellow Ledbetter, which is sort of notorious because there are no coherent lyrics. It just ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. It's it's literally nonsense. Nobody knows what Eddie Vedder is singing, but in that everybody is united with this overwhelming emotion. I found myself even choking up. So we need to recognize when it comes to worship, there's all kinds of sounds that, um, can trigger emotions. My question is, is there meaningful content to that emotional experience? And so you take this is why, you know, a lot of the old hymns are so powerful is because they're walking you through redemption history from creation to fall to redemption to consummation. You know, take a song like How Great Thou Art. There's something in the power of the lyrics themselves, regardless of whether those lyrics are being rapped, uh, whether they're being sung by a choir of 100 people or whether they're just being sung by out of key plumbers and out of key myself. Um, so I think we need to focus on are the lyrics of our worship reflective of the gravitas of the God we're worshipping?
Mm. Um. This is probably the first time in the history of Moody Radio. The Pearl jam has come up, and so that's always fascinating as well. We've got one more segment with Thaddeus Williams talking about his book, Revering God How to Marvel at Your Maker. Thaddeus Williams is our guest. Our phone number is (877) 548-3675. We're going to go to Kristen in just a moment when we come back. And then we've got others lined up again. (877) 548-3675. One more segment. Stay with us. Hey! We're back. Ed Stetzer live. My guest is Thaddeus Williams. We're having, I think, a fascinating conversation about revering God. And it is interesting to me, Thaddeus, that that we need these conversations. We need to be reminded of these truths, or we end up with sort of a, I don't know, like a, like a lower view of God, like he's our, you know, big buddy in the sky. He's, you know, helping us, you know, helping us out there and giving us a big pat on the back, really, instead of acknowledging just his holiness, his goodness, his awesomeness and more. Um, I don't know. It's it seems yet, on the other hand, I mean, I think in our culture that's a description of where we are now at other times, and even in other cultures around the world today, people see God as so holy and revered that they can't approach him by grace. So how do you find that balance? How do you find that balance?
I think part of it is recognizing, you know, why do we need constant reminders? Why did ancient Israel need constant reminders to to have fear and reverence for the Lord? And I think it goes to the first of the Ten Commandments, you know, have no gods before me. And then John Calvin's classic insight that the human heart is a factory of idols. We constantly crank out God's substitutes to to worship, to elevate, to put on the throne. And so just yesterday I was on our campus there at Biola, at Talbot. Um, and I had a moment with one of my classes where we were talking about idolatry. We were talking about the bigness of God. We were talking about reverence. And I shared with them just a brief story that, um, early on in my marriage to my beautiful bride, Jocelyn, we, uh, she really wanted a house, and I never really cared all that much. But I love her a lot. And so it became important to me. And over time, we slowly began thinking more about home ownership. And, oh, did this offer go through? Are we going to get this place? This is our dream home, slowly and sort of the pie chart of our thought life and our and our emotional life that got a bigger slice than the infinite God of the universe. And so I was telling my students yesterday that we were sitting on the couch one night and sort of the light bulb turned on and I realized, um, babe, we've made an idol out of homeownership here, and we need to acknowledge that. So we sunk to our knees right there next to the couch and confessed it. And not two days later, we get a call from, uh, our daughters, our oldest daughter's preschool teacher, saying, hey, I got a beautiful four bedroom house that you guys can move into tomorrow, and I'll sell it to you for $100,000 off. We were just, you know, jaws on the ground at the goodness of God. And it is just this recurring theme in life that our hearts are idol factories. We turn, as Tim Keller loved, to say good things into ultimate things, in which case they become destructive things. And so I think a reminder to have reverence, awe at the hugeness of God helps keep our idol factory hearts in check.
Yeah. And I love that that heart is an idol factory quote. Um, and it's, uh, you know, Calvin's a reminder for all of us and that that the natural inclination is to not Revere God is to Revere something else is to put something else in place. Okay, so we got some calls. And let me also remind people that they too can call in (877) 548-3675. We got first up is Raj in Oklahoma. Raj is up and Merl, I can't seem to select the caller right now, so if you go ahead and select Raj for me, we're going to go to Raj in Oklahoma who's a friend of the show, frequent caller. Raj, you're on the air. Go for it.
Thank you. My question is, um, how much do you think our ego gets in the way of revering God?
Now, I want you to hold on, Raj. And before. No, you know you got to wait because I got to give people books. You got to wait to answer Thaddeus so I can give people books. And Raj has a good question. So he gets a copy of Revering God. Raj, thank you so much. What do you think?
Yeah. I mean, Raj, you are putting your finger right on the pulse of where we're at as a culture, sort of the zeitgeist, the spirit of the age. Uh, in my last book and in this book, uh, so in Don't Follow Your Heart. And now in Revering God, I document that 84% of Americans believe the chief end of man is to enjoy yourself. 86% believe that to to get the most out of life, you need to follow your desires. You need to follow your heart. And a whopping 91% believe. To do that, you need to look within for answers. So so egoism is trending, to put it lightly. Um, but as a theologian, let me let me answer your question by going right back to the beginning of beginning of Scripture. You see in Genesis three verse five this statement that you had the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and the original temptation to our first parents, Adam and Eve, was, if you eat this fruit, the text says, you will be like God, knowing good and evil. And for years, Raj, that that baffled me. What is happening here? And then I had some light bulbs turn on reading a great Dutch theologian, Abraham Kuyper. And he points out that the Hebrew here for knowing isn't so much. I know it because I read it in a book. It's not. I know it because I experienced it. It's a particular Hebrew turn of phrase that means I know it because I made it that way. And so God has a maker's knowledge of reality. He defines the scope of reality. He defines moral reality. He defines aesthetic reality. What's beautiful? He defines spiritual reality. And so what Satan is offering here to our first parents is you can be the sovereign, meaning makers. And then the language of good and evil in Genesis three five is not just moral categories, but ancient Jews would use opposite terms to describe everything in between. So for ancient Jews and I say black and white, you would understand. I mean, every color if we're ancient Jews and I say, you know, the Beatles and Nickelback, you would understand that I'm describing every band. And so good and evil is ancient Jewish way of saying everything you, Adam and Eve, you can be. Your egos can be the center of all reality. You can be the sovereign meaning makers, the definers of everything. And so I think, yes, you have pinpointed the single biggest obstacle to revering God is we prefer to put ourselves at the center. And the only thing that can break that. That what I call in my last book, The Cult of Self-worship, really is the sovereign grace of God to reorient our hearts and remind us how freeing it is that God is God and we're not. Because the fact is, he's infinitely better at being God than we are.
Mm. God is God, and we're not. I mean, again, so basic, but so essential at the same time. Raj, thanks for your call. Remember, holding the line and our producer will come on and give you a copy of Revering God. Let's go to Penny in Alabama. Penny, you're going to be in just a second. They're going to. There you go. You're now live on the air with your question or your comment. Go right ahead.
What are your suggestions for revering God through our senses?
Good question. Again, hold on the line, Penny. We're going to give you a copy of Revering God as well. What do you think, Thaddeus? What about our senses? We sort of talked about sitting outside looking at the sun or the stars. What other senses can we engage in?
Absolutely. So the final section of the book. So. So I cover things like the eternal love of God within the Trinity. We talk about the reliability of God that God speaks and he's he's trustworthy. Uh, I cover the enjoyability of God, um, the redeeming grace of God. But where the whole book lands is exactly with your question that God is, uh, expressive. He's the the great capital, a artist. And so let's hang out a little more in the opening chapters of Scripture in Genesis, where God is speaking the material world into existence. So he is speaking watermelon into existence. He's speaking strawberries into existence. For many of our of our listeners, you'll rejoice to know that God is speaking coffee beans into existence. He's speaking, um, you know, cats and hummingbirds. He's speaking beaches in the first sunsets into existence. He's speaking at sunsets, the pink clouds and the the dark navy blue skyline. And at the end of every creation day, what does God say? What? What is the benediction that he returns to at the end of every creation day? He says it is good. In Hebrew, it's it's tov. And there's a brilliant scholar out of Taylor University, a guy named James Spiegel, who's done a lot of work on the Hebrew here. And he says that Tov good is God isn't making a moral declaration. He's not saying it's morally good that there's ladybugs and hummingbirds and sunsets. Uh, humans don't even show up till day six. So the first five days of creation. Spiegel argues, and I think he's right, that God is making less of moral and more aesthetic declarations. He's saying it's beautiful that there's strawberries in the universe. It's beautiful that there's tigers in the universe. It's beautiful that there's coffee beans in the universe. And so I think that opens up to us a whole new level of revering God in his creation. And let me just close the thought with, with a very down to earth example, my office in Talbot East looks out west towards the ocean, and on a real clear day I can see sort of the beginnings of LA. And if I'm standing there and I'm watching a blue sky turn dark blue and I'm watching white clouds Turn orange and pink, and I'm watching the dark blue slowly turn to black, and all these little white speckles pop up the stars. What am I witnessing? Well, theologically, we are told not only did God create the universe, but he sustains it moment by moment. So in Colossians one, all things were made by Christ and for Christ, but in him all things hold together. So all of those light particles bouncing off the horizon, putting on this, this light show, this unfolding artwork. We have the awesome privilege of enjoying God's creativity in real time as we get out into his creation.
So from your office you can see LA from my office in Myers. I can see the parking lot. So I just want to I just want to point out the value that you have of being over in Talbot East. While I'm Well.
From your office, you can peer across the lawn and see me enjoying the sunset from my office.
That is fair. That is fair because I can't see anything where my office is. Just. I want to just express that. Just that, that bitterness. That's that's actually there. Okay. Remind you we're talking to Thaddeus Williams. We're talking about his book Revering God. And the subtitle is How to Marvel at Your Maker. We're taking your calls as well. Several good calls. We're giving away some copies of the book as well. Our phone number is (877) 548-3675. Let's continue to go to the calls and let's go to Mike in Alabama as well. I guess we're staying in Alabama today. Mike, you're live on the air. Go right ahead.
Thank you and good morning, gentlemen. What a beautiful day the Lord has made where I am.
Oh, Mike. Mike, I am loving. I am loving that accent. Mike. We got we need to have a good Alabama accent sometimes on there we live in. Yeah. What accent exactly? Listen, I'm from New York. You got a problem with that? So, uh, accents are okay, but go ahead.
My accent.
That's true.
Dude, I'm from California, dude.
So there's no. There's really no accents in California. All right, Mike, we better go. We got about two minutes left. Jump right in. Mike.
Uh, your guest has evidently read my mind when I turned on the radio, but my church has recently reorganized, and, uh, they put a ton of money in sound system. And now you cannot hear your self sing, much less the person standing beside you. So, uh, I think that congregational singing has gone away because we are drowned out by the praise team, and I just, uh. I so appreciate what your guest said, and, uh, I just wish I could, uh, impress on church leaders. what we don't have anymore.
Yeah. I would say as kindly as possible relay that concern to, um, to the pastoral team. Recognize they're getting often bombarded um, with with criticism. So again, uh, lead with with kindness. But I know from personal experience, when I show up on a Sunday and I'm the terrible morning person and I'm disheveled and trying to center my mind on the hugeness of God, there's something to hearing my wife next to me belting out to Jesus that is so powerful and pulls me out of my head. There's something so powerful again about hearing the the school teacher behind me, the plumber in front of me, worshiping. I think we need to recover something of that in our local church world.
Alright, you know what you've done here, Thaddeus, is you've brought out the let's talk about the volume in church conversation. So this should be, uh. It's going to be fair.
I need to have.
Well, I go to Mariners Church and I'll be preaching this weekend and the music's pretty loud. My watch goes off and it says, you know, 90dB or too much. So, uh, so I get that people have some different views in and around that we're gonna continue our conversations about it and other topics as well. And your calls (877) 548-3675. Hey, Mike, we're going to give you a copy of the book. Hold on to again, (877) 548-3675. We're going continue with your calls in just a moment. So we're back one last segment with Thaddeus Williams, his book, Revering God How to Marvel Your Maker. Our calls have been fascinating and a wide array of topics and subjects. Let's go to Kristen in Dayton, Ohio. Kristen, you are live on the air with your question or comment. Go right ahead.
Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Um, my question was, I understand that the fear of fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. And I wanted to know what's one practical way that I could implement fear of the Lord into my everyday life?
Boom! What a great question, Kristen. Hold on. We're going to give you a copy of the book Revering God How to Marvel at Your Maker. This is one of those things where it's like set up for you. Thaddeus, help her out.
That's such a.
Such a great question, Kristen. I really appreciate it. Um, so practically. The fact that the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge, part of what's wrapped up in that is that we take what God says in his word infinitely more seriously than we take what our own fallen emotions say. And so let's say you wake up one morning and you're feeling in the dumps, and let's say there's some message sort of marketing through our through your fallen mind that, you know, unworthy, unlovable, whatever the message might be. Revering God would mean, okay, I go to the text of Scripture and I take it more seriously than however I feel that day. So let me just give one practical example. Let's say I want to Revere God. I crack open my Bible. Let's say I land in John chapter 17 and in John 17 I'm reading. I get to sort of eavesdrop on this intra trinitarian conversation. I get to listen in on the son talking to the father. And one of the things he says there, Jesus says to the father, you know, you loved me before the foundation of the world. And then he goes on to say in that prayer he says, and you love them. Them is referring to every believer through the echelons of time. That includes you, Christian. That includes me. That includes Ed, that includes every believer on earth. And Jesus says, father, you love them even as you love me. And so to Revere God, you start pondering that. Well, what does that mean? How does the father love the son? Oh, that's right, he loves the son infinitely. He loves the son irreversibly. Unapologetically. The father loves the son with the full weight of his divine perfections. And so now I meditate some more on the text, and I come to realize the light bulb turns on. Oh yeah, regardless of what my fallen feelings say, I am loved infinitely, irreversibly, unapologetically, with the full weight of divine perfection. So I would say that's number one. The best way to start revering God today, getting into his word, taking it more seriously than we take ourselves.
So good, so good. Okay, God, we're going to Thaddeus we got a time for. We're gonna try to get in some questions. So let's go to kind of a lightning round level. So let me also say first thanks for your call Kristen. So I'm looking at I'm looking at Carolyn. I'm going to try to get to, uh, Rebecca. I might be able to get to Elvira, but I'm asking all three of you that I just mentioned to be ready to jump right into your question. Uh, ask your question, and then we'll give that a chance to respond. So let's first go to Carolyn in Chicago. You're live on the air.
Hi. Actually, it's Carolyn from Madison, Wisconsin. My question is, how does God use suffering to lead us to Revere him?
Great question. We're going to get your book. What do you think, Thaddeus?
Oh, such a profound question. I wish we had all day. And even then.
You do not.
Skimming. Skimming the surface. Um, I can speak biblically here. One of the ways is, if you look at acts four, I have a whole chapter on the early church suffering where they have been given a death threat from the powers that be in Jerusalem. Shut up about Jesus or we will shut you up. And you can imagine with this ultimatum, they're feeling a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety, a lot of panic, a lot of dread. And in acts four, one of the most beautiful prayers recorded in Scripture, they gather together and they start their prayer with a powerful word in Greek. It's despotess where we get our word despot from. It means a ruler of absolute unchallengeable power. So they start with the reminder, as an English Bible would render it sovereign Lord. And then they go on to pray about the execution of Jesus. And they say, well, when Jesus was threatened, when he was actually executed, where was God? Oh, that's right, always on his throne. And so I think one of the reasons, not all the reasons, but one of the reasons, um, that suffering happens is it reminds us again what I said earlier, that God is infinitely better at being God than we are. And so suffering brings us to a point where we can either try to continue sovereignly masterminding our lives and being frustrated, or we can bow the knee and trust with Romans eight that God is sovereignly working all things together for his glory and for our good.
Let's go to Rebecca in Indiana. Rebecca, you're live on the air. Go right ahead. Oh, let's go on to Elvira in Lake Zurich, Illinois. Elvira, you're live on the air. Go right ahead.
Thank you. Um, I have always wanted to talk to a theologian about this, so thank you for being there. Um, with regard to faith crisis and the ability to perceive, actually perceive God, like, say, you're on the fence is. Were you thinking about that at all when you were writing this book? And it would this book be relevant for a person like that?
Oh, 100%. Thank you so much for the question, Elvira. I have found that, um, in my 30 year walk with Jesus, there have been extended seasons of divine hiddenness, and I find it every semester with my students. Students who feel out of place. They feel like outcasts because God feels distant from them. And one of the things I do in this book that I hadn't really seen done in any other systematic theologies that I've read, is reckoning, honestly, with the fact that, as Isaiah says in Isaiah 1427, this is a guy writing scripture in Isaiah says, truly you are a God who hides himself. In Psalm 88, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, uh, the psalmist says, he closes the psalm, you know, where are you, O Lord? How long will I be waiting for you? And then the final line is, darkness is my closest friend. And so the fact is, biblically experiencing having a hard time detecting God's presence is a running theme from the old into the New Testament. So it's not only normal for Christians to experience that. I would argue that it's essential for Christians to experience those seasons when God feels distant. For lots of reasons. I unpack about ten reasons in the book, but one of them that I'll share briefly is the greatest commandment. The greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength. And I want to zoom in on that word all. If I'm to love God with all my heart, that means not just that. That joyous part of my heart, that tingly. I get the Jesus buzz part of my heart. All my heart means I learn to love him with the disappointed parts of my heart. I learn to love him with the frustrated parts of my heart, with the panicked parts of my heart, with the depressed parts of my heart. And so one of many reasons that God hides is to help us keep the greatest commandment to love him with our whole selves. And I would just add, there's something beautiful about somebody who is experiencing a sense of God's presence, who still loves him. There's just something beautiful about that level of love that expands our faith.
Great conversation today, Thaddeus. Thanks for joining us on Ed Stetzer Live. Thaddeus Williams has been our guest. His book is Revering God How to Marvel at Your Maker. If you go to Ed Stetzer live.com, it links to his bio, the book. You can get the book there as well. And thanks for our great callers as always. Also thanks to our team. You know, the team includes my producer Karen Hendren, my engineer Merle Saint James, and Titus Manning the phones today here to the program again. Go to Ed stetzer.com. Connect with us through social media. Ed Stetzer live at Ed Stetzer live is a production of Moody Radio, our ministry at Moody Bible Institute.
