Draft Season | New York GiantsIt's now officially open. This is Draft season.
John schmel Tony Pauline back with you, and we're happy to be joined by a special guest this week.
Trevor Sikima.
You know him from our coverage here on the Giant Subtle podcast does a great job covering the draft for Pro Football Focus. You can find them on the NFL Stock Exchange podcast and the PFF NFL podcast. Trev I know this is kind of a tough time of year. We were kind of in depth NFL and college. Do you have the energy for another two months or so of this?
Of course I do. This is what it's all about, baby.
This is the uh, this is the holiday grind, if you will, that time that you get right past Halloween and then all the way through the New Year's. Man, you're just pedaled to the metal trying to take in as much information as you can get those final rechecks before you get into all star seasons.
So it's a beautiful time of year.
Yeah, and we and we all got a little bit of a holiday gift this past week, the NFL announcing that underclassmen that are not I'm not graduating, so true juniors.
Red Schord sophomores, you name it.
Any college player be that's eligible for the draft can now attend these college all star games.
Tony, let's start with you.
I know you're in contact with a lot of agents, scouts, teams.
How does this impact the process?
How many of these juniors even want to go to these games that are going to be high picks. How do you think this changes what that atmosphere is going to be like in January for the Shrine Bowl, in the Senior Bowl.
I think what's gonna happen is, first of all, you know a little bit of vision in his history, if you will, it would give me a minute or two. You go back to like nineteen ninety three, whenever it was a guy by the name of Dave T. Thomas who is a very eccentric personality.
He's founder of Wendy's.
No, he actually used to do the draft guys for the NFL Draft back in the day when they were like a six inches stick. Anyway, he ran the Hula Bowl when the Hula Bawl was actually in Honolulu, Hawaiian played at the Aloha Bowl, and in nineteen ninety three he was the first one to start to invite underclassmen to the Hula Bowl. And back then, the NFL was so adverse against our underclassmen entering the NFL Draft. They didn't want to seem like they were advocating it. So when Dave Thomas started inviting the underclassmen to the Hula Bowl right around nineteen ninety three, NFL teams didn't go in the game, they didn't go to practices, they send no representatives, which I'm sure a lot of their scouts were very upset. Get a nice week's vacation in Hawaiian is Huli ball. And then twenty years later, you know, Jimnegi started where he would allow four year juniors or academic seniors to play in the Senior Ball. And here we are ten years after that, and now all underclassmen or any underclassman that declares themselves eligible for the draft is now allowed to play in the Senior Bawl, the Shrine Game, the Hula Ball, which is now played in Florida. We're down one game because the NFLPA Game was canceled. I don't think it's going to affect it that much.
You've got to.
Remember, the initial invitation is the first tier invitations for the Senior Bowl and Shrine Bowl have already gone out. Those second tier invitations you're going to go out in December, and the underclass's been have until January fifteenth to make their decision as to whether or not they're going to enter the draft. So I think what will happen is you're probably gonna have about a half a dozen or so spots that Jim Nagy and Eric Galco jimagive is try Senior Bowl and Eric Galaco of the Shrine Bowl save for the juniors. And what will happen is the top juniors are not gonna, you know, go to those games because the top juniors are going to be first round picks, and first round picks rarely playing those games. He's the Senior Bowl these days, which is a shame. What you may have, what may happen is those invitations will go out to juniors at certain positions offensive tackle, cornerback, play positions like that, and if those juniors don't accept those invitations, you'll then have third tier seniors who are invited to the game. So I mean most of those most of the roster, and if you remember John, we spoke with Jim Nagi last year. The past couple of years, and he talked about how with the NIL with the sixth year of eligibility being given, sometimes it's tough to fill that roster. So now you know, you've got to have most of that roster in place, and you may not know which underclassmen are yet to declare. I mean guys that are going to be outside the top seventy five.
Yeah, and Trent for guys like us who don't get to go to college practices and stuff. Obviously, the NFL teams get close up books at these guys. Anyone that we can just get eyes on in person at these games is going to be beneficial and it's gonna frankly push more talent at least starting next year with since the invitations draft this year, maybe not so much this year. It'll push more talent down down the line a little bit, where now the Shrine Bowl is maybe gonna get fifteen guys that otherwise would have been at the Senior Bowl.
Yeah, I think, you know, first and foremost, it feels like it's a it feels like it's a media and a hype decision. Anyways, like we're seeing the NFL and just NFL media really want to monetize both of the top two games, I would say, the.
Senior Bowl and the Shrine Bowl.
For sure, they're wanting to get more people to watch the coverage, not just to the game itself, but during the practices, and you could see, like on the NFL network they've been pushing over the last couple of years, like football is three sixty five, and so this to me is a big movement towards that where if you I agree with Tony, like, I don't know how many juniors they're getting this year because of the process, but like in future years, maybe it's a little different. Right, Baker Mayfield went to the Senior Bowl, Josh Allen went to the Senior Bowl, So you never know, some of these huge name players might end up going that are juniors, and that only gets more people interested in gets more people to watch the shows and the coverage and all that kinds of stuff. And so that's kind of why I felt like the move was made, because they're trying to just make it more of a national notable time of the year for the football calendar.
But you know, I can't help but think, you know.
I wonder about guys like like Tyson Major, Right, Tyson Beagen goes to the Senior Bowl. Good chance nobody would have even known who Tyson Bagent was throughout the entire draft process had he not gone to the Senior Bowl. Well, if true underclassmen are allowed to go to the game and you're trying to get as much hype and notoriety as the game that you possibly can, maybe guy like Tyson Bage doesn't get an invite.
You know.
I think about like Tarik Wooland as well, you know, and it's like he's a he ended up being a fifth round pick, but he really showed his stuff at the Senior Bowl.
Does a guy like that get invited?
Right?
Another guy?
Yeah? And so I just I.
Think of those players as like, even if we're only getting a handful of true underclassmen that come in, there, are there those true like draft gems. Do we get less of those? And I'm not saying that that's like good or bad for the game or anything. It's just something that now with the pool of players a lot more vast, and with some more notable names now qualifying to play at these events, you're naturally going to want to invite the guys that are gonna get people to come to the game, gonna get people to want to watch, and I wonder how it affects some of those like last invite layers if you will.
Well, you know, the interesting thing is this The Senior Ball still call itself the c Bawl because a reward for seniors, you know, academic seniors when Navy was there, And you're right, I mean, you know, it'll be interesting because you know, as we all know, going to Senior Bowl there's always an SEC sort of flavor there. So does NAGY start to invite some of the SEC underclassmen who have declared, you know, are are ready to play. So that'll be an interesting thing to see. But I don't like the decision personally because I think, especially with the C Ball, it's, you know, as Trevor was saying, it's it's a reward for these guys who have stuck out, who have finished their eligibility, we're ready to go to the next level. It'll be interesting. I don't think it's really going to it's not going to have a major impact, but yeah, you're going to have those those fringe, you know, second tier, third tier seniors that could lose out those final spots because thenderclassmen are getting those positions.
It was a very busy weekend in college football. Let's go there, Drave. I'll let you lead off here. Pick out one game that you want to touch on that maybe some of the guys that may stuck out to you this week that you thought a game was particularly consequential.
Okay, so from this past game, not not one that's coming up.
Yeah, past week.
Okay, all right, let me let me, let me check.
I gotta I gotta remind myself of some of the big games because I can't forget what oh oh.
I have to start with Jaden Daniels.
I have to start with the LSU quarterback, Jaden and Daniels because of what he did against my Florida Gators. I made sure to pay attention to that one, and it wasn't pretty.
But Jayden's been awesome, man. I mean, even going.
Back to his time at Arizona State. You've got what he did at Arizona State, where he felt like he was just basically like a big armed but more of a running quarterback, like a lot of people weren't really taking his pocket presence very seriously.
When he was at Arizona State.
He goes over to LSU and last year I definitely took notice, and I don't know a lot about the people did as well, how low the turnover where he plays were for him.
He was making sure, I need to take care of.
This ball a lot more. And you could tell he worked on that lastlast year. This year he's taking those fundamental skills that he was able to hone in on the year before, and now we're seeing crazy passing numbers. I mean, the big time throws away up for him, the yards both passing and rushing. This guy, to me, should be the front runner for the Heisman right now. And because of that, I think he's putting his name frillly. You know, this conversation for QB three in this class because a lot of people, yeah, it's Drake Man and Caleb Williams at the very top, but there's a handful of other names. Shadora Sanders, Bon Knicks, Michael Pennix, JJ McCarthy, Jayden Daniels is putting his name within that conversation to be potentially that third quarterback off the board. So that is the game to me that definitely stood out because of just the overall offensive potential. This guy brings to the table, and he put it on display this past weekend.
And Tony, I know you've talked a lot about the LS wide receivers and how they were going to be impacted by Daniels.
Trevor mentioned it.
Daniels, I think has I know, he is the most twenty plus yard plays in all of college football. I think he almost has twenty more than a guy like the next best guy in Penis and Halo Williams. And we're seeing now not just neighbors, now his other wide receiver and Thomas is making some big plays too out there well.
As we talked about last week, I think the thing with jayd Daniels is he's becoming more and more of a quarterback, you know, just more and more of a passer, not a thrower, making good decisions protecting the football. You know, there has been a lot of inconsistency in his game previous to this. You know, you look at the twenty twenty two film. You know, beginning of the season, you're wondering what's going on. Then all of a sudden, he pulls it together. At the end of the season, they beat Alabama in double overtime. He makes some great decisions. He made some great decisions in the game prior to this to this is the pass one. Let's see how he got how we he does this? The season ends, the hours pointing up, and you know it's ironic we're talking about the Senior Ball and the Shrine Game because Jayden Daniels is the kind of guy that, as I've said time and time again the Senior Bowl is a king maker at the quarterback position. We can go through the history and see guys who came in his fringe first round picks, you know, Day two picks and just vaulted up draft boards. That is this, this sort of situation with the sort of opportunity that I would expect Jayden dangles to have come the end of January. If he continued, well you probably get the invitation anyway. You want to see him continue to play at this high level and protect the football and continue to make good decisions. I watched it, you know, the Penn State Michigan game was a very interesting game for a variety of reasons, you know, starting with Jim Harball being unable to even be in the stadium. But I thought the offensive lines in that game really played incredibly well Is Accident of Michigan. Trevor Keegan of Michigan played exceptionally well. Drake Nugent the center, the transfer from Stanford who no one talks about otto and he played exceptionally well against the very good Penn State front. I think when you look at the Penn State offensive line, you know, we know Ficiano sal Warmley, but Hunter Norzad the transfer from Cornell who's been there for two years, so he played really really well, neutralized Chris Jenkins most of the game. Chris Jenkins really was a non factor because the Hunter norris Ad really liked the offensive line play both sides. And that Penn State Michigan.
Game, you know, Trevor's funny, we were all excited. Its Hary for interrupting that.
Oh we're gonna see JJ McCarthy against this really good defense. See what he does. They throws it eight times. I mean, come a high. Have you got that out of that? Yeah?
Unfortunately that was we didn't really learn anything from JJ McCarthy that day. I thought it was much more of a game where like Tony said, I think both of the offensive lines have been played really well. To me, that was Forshano's best game, and he kind of needed it because we've talked all year long. I feel like going into the season it was like, man, yes, Olivashana one of the best smoothest pass protectors that we've seen in a long time. But the strength aspect of his game, he wasn't this people mover, and for his size, you would think that he would be a little bit more effective in run blocking and the strength portion of his game the point of attack, and we really had not seen that. In fact, when Penn State played against Ohio State, the couple of times that he got got.
If you will, it was JT.
Twoey Moloau just hitting the long arm and just bull rushing him, you know, just straight back into the pocket of Drew Aller. And so that was a game where you went, man, okay, this would have been a good test for your strength, and he really didn't show up for it. I felt like this past weekend against Michigan he showed a lot more of that. He played with the nasty streak. I don't know if somebody did the John Henderson pregame slap of the face to him before he went out there, or what it was but whatever it is, they need to do that more often. Because I thought that he played with a fire this past weekend, So it was Fashano's best game.
Too, Tony. I know Yoso had an eye in the Miami Florida state game this weekend.
Right, it was a good game. It was an excellent game. And you know, Leonard Taylor played very well. He didn't have eye popping numbers. But when you watch Leonard Taylor, the defensive lineman from Miami, very explosive, very athletic, incredibly quick penetrates, the gaps can change the direction. You gotta get a little bit bigger, you gotta get a little bit stronger. I think he's probably gonna enter the draft, even though he's gonna need to add both to his frame. But there's a lot to like there with Leonard Taylor. I don't see him as a first round pick as a lot of people are talking about. But you can see the explosion, you can see the underlying ability to be a big time player if he continues to develop and just physically matures.
Yeah, I agree with you.
I don't really know if there's gonna be another first round pick interior defensive lineman outside of Gerseonne Newton from Illinois. I feel like if you would have asked me at the beginning of the season who has that chance to be another interior defensive lineman, I would have told you Leonard Taylor, just because the pass rush grade the year before and the pass rush win percentage. I mean, all those numbers are really high and you can see it. I mean Tony mentions it. He moves so well for a player who plays on the interior, and you see a lot of that in his pass rush, But when it comes to run defense, he's a little undisciplined. He can get out of his gaps, he can kind of get pushed around, like the offensive line can kind of manipulate him in certain ways where he's totally running himself out of the play and it's really hurting his team as at Florida State was able to exploit a couple of times in that game. So a lot of talent with Taylor, But I agree, I don't think that he is man for as much potential as he has. I don't know if he's the finished product enough that you would need to see to take him.
Maybe back into the first round.
Just because his pass rushing is so alluring, But yeah, it's probably something that he's going to be more of a priority day two.
Pick right, stick it on the game real quick. Where are you on Keon Coleman? And a lot of people have him as wide receiver too. Tony and I are not as high on him as some other people are. I don't see that separation skill. I much perform Elak Neighbors. For example, where are you on Keon Coleman? He'd a pretty quiet game against Mammie just four catchup.
I like Keon Coleman.
He's got some of the best big moments at the receiver position that we've seen over the course of this season. But there's no doubt about it. The consistent production certainly favors Malik Neighbors Romo Dunze from Washington, and I have both of those guys ahead of Coleman. I've got Coleman as wide receiver four for me right now, and I think a lot of people talk about that group after Marvin Harrison Junior, and to me, the next guy on that list is very easily Molik Neighbors. To me, I think that just the way that that dude moves is so different. You may you mentioned the separation that sometimes is eluding Coleman's game. For as great as he is as an athlete, he I think he brings a lot of top tier athleticism at six three, two hundred and fifteen pounds to the catch point. We've seen that time and time again. But it's the separation before you get the ball that I think both o'doonsay and certainly Melik Neighbors are better at. That is just such a valuable translatable skill to the next level. So still have Coleman in my top five wide receivers, but he would be wide receiver four for me, behind those two guys, and then of course Marvin Harrison Junior. Two.
I want to throw Franklin from Oregon into the mix. Two.
By the way, that guy has speed and size, and I think this is gonna be a really deep wide receiver class. Tony, one of the game you want to touch on and then I'll go to the other PAC twelve game with you, Trevor Utah Washington, Tony, what kind of jumped out to you there? Every week it seems like Washington puts up forty on somebody. It's amazing, you know, I know this.
Is not gonna be a popular thought, but just the inconsistency of Michael Pennix. I mean, he came through for him, and you know, every we're talking Washington won the game, but at one point in time, you know, he's thrown for less than fifty percent passes. There's just a streakiness to Michael Pennock's game. Great story, great vertical pass, a great deep arm, makes some huge throws, but there's just a streakiness and inconsistency within games that really concern me about Michael pennixs And again you talk about Jaydon downs, Well, Daniels seemed to kind of figure that out and be productive for all four quarters. Pennix disappears. That is a major concern. I know, there's a lot of love for him. People watch the highlights, people watch the big plays down the field. To mc millan at doonsay, there's just that up and down within the four quarters of the game with Penix that kind of concerns me. He won, they're still on the hunt for the national title. I mean, people are still gonna be talking about Pennix, but I think there's a lot there to be ironed out for Michael Pennix.
Yeah, Penix, he like you said, he's got some of the best top tier throws of any quarterback in college football. But ball placement is definitely something that has grown into an issue with him as the season has gone on, especially when you talk about him in that QB three conversation.
And you know, I find.
Myself believing in Penix because when I watch him in some of the ball placement issues that he has, both his throwing motion and his footwork is not as clean as it can be right now. And so I sometimes I convince myself that, Okay, well, if you marry that up a little more, does the ball placement get better. But sometimes touch is just something that's tough to teach. Sometimes touch is impossible to teach for certain quarterbacks, and for Penis, he is a flamethrower type of quarterback. You know, when he is throwing fastball, it's a lot like JJ McCarthy is right now. When JJ McCarthy and Michael Penox are throwing fastball, when they're throwing gas, those dudes can really put the football in beautiful spot. But when you've got to put a certain amount of touch onto it, I think that's when both of those guys struggle a little bit, and so yeah, I Penis as some incredibly big throws, but the consistencies and of course the injury history as well as well as his age are gonna be.
Something that a lot of people talk about throughout this season.
And Trev, I'm gonna go to the other Pac twelve game that started.
A lot of people in the East Coast probably didn't watch it, as the game started around ten thirty at night. I got through about three and a half quarters and I passed out of my couch. I watched the rest of it the next day. But again USC outmatched from a team perspective by Oregon obviously just a much better team, much more talented, and Caleb Williams is just nineteen to thirty four. He had a bad fumble in the game, had to try to play hero Ball, but again it's because he has to play hero Ball for his team to have a chance. And there were still some plays in that game at a structure, throws on the move down the field where you're, oh my gosh, like there is no other person in the world that's probably not named Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes that can make those type of athletic throws on the move with touch at your lead down the field to receivers on the move, and I just can't get away from those plays when I try to have that you know, top two quarterback conversation in my head.
No, and you're right, he is.
He is so supremely talented. But there's no question about it. He's just he's got to get better within structure. Like the wow stuff. It's incredible. He does things that nobody else in this quarterback class can and in fact, there are very few quarterbacks I think, on the planet who can do what Kayleb william does. But you know, I was watching a clip that somebody had posted on social media actually early today, and it was a beautiful Kleb William's throw to the sideline where he hit it pinpoint accurately, absolutely perfect, over the shoulder.
Right over the defender.
It was within the pocket, It was within the first two and a half seconds I think three seconds maybe of the snap, and you go, wow, look at that, and then you kind of watch it more and more because it was from the all twenty two angle and the feet just stopped moving, you know, like he's the footwork just absolutely stops, his upper body mechanics are overcoming him not moving his feed, and yet the ball still went exactly where it needed to go, exactly when it needed to go there. And so it is what makes Caleb Williams the most fascinating and frustrating prospect in this entire class because his gifts are better than any player that's going to be in this class. But it's just it's so worrisome because there's not a lot of people who do it like he does, including in the NFL. And I think that that is both his biggest, you know attraction and also his biggest attractor is there are just not many exactly because a lot of people have tried, right, A lot of people try to do what Caleb Williams has been able to do at USC at the NFL level and it does not work. So when you can only name one or two players who play that kind of style and actually make it work, of course you're talking about the top tier guys, but I think people also have to think about the players that he did not work out at and that's you know what every team is going to have to go through this offseason.
Yeah, so, Tony, you've been through this doing was much longer than Trevor and I put me in it, put us in the shoes of these NFL scouts. Are they just gonna look at the tools and say, we get him with our coaches, we'll fix some of that, We'll fix the footwork, we'll fix the ball protection and some of that stuff. And they're gonna say, we see the high end stuff and we can fix the rest. How do you think the league.
Will view him?
You know, because remember is not much different When Patrick Mahomes was a Texas tech, he was a mess. Like he was, he was a legitimate mess and and you read fixed them. And now we see maybe the guy that couldn't end up being a top three quarterback in the history of the league.
So how do you think the.
Scouts will will view Williams and kind of that lens Well, it's.
Not gonna be one one one opinion fits all. It's not gonna be one size fits all. But I'll go back to, you know, talk about Patrick Mahomes. I remember when Philip Rivers was at the Senior Ball and I'm standing behind a couple of New York Giants scouts and Philip Rivers had a hideous delivery and it was the ugliest thing in the world. And the Giant scouts said, you know what, you may not like the delivery, but look at the end result. And the end result was precise accuracy putting the ball where only his receiver can make the reception. So sometimes, you know, you may try, if you try and change some things, you may ruin the quarterback. I think there's gonna be I think there will be some people who try and work on some of the some of the mechanics, some of the fundamentals, but there'll be able to say say, look this this kid, since he was a freshman, since he took over at Oklahoma as a true freshman, has been doing this and doing it incredibly well. And now you're a usc where he's basically carrying that team, that offense on the shoulders. I think the people go out there and just say, hey, let him play. Well, maybe we'll fix a few things. I don't think it's going to be a big overall. I think what's going to happen is, you know, as we get closer to the draft, people are gonna, you know, use this as a talking point to talk down about Caleb Williams, and there will be some teams that don't like his mechanics. But again, you know, I go back to that store, Phill rivers. It was a hideous throwing motion, but the end result is what matters, and the end result was the ball was consistently put in a place where only his receiver can make the reception.
It's November, and I'm already tired about the discussion. To be honest with you, which which is a problem is we got five months before the draft, so we'll see where this winds up. All right, we came here to do cornerback rankings and defensive back stuff. We had so much other stuff to talk about. Great conversation, Let's get to corners, Tony. Let's start with the two guys on top of your rankings, two Alabama players, Kooley McKinstry and Terry on Arnold. And you know, I watched mcintrey in the offseason. I was impressed. I had a I figured first round pick. Gotta be honest, Terry on Arnold's not that far off from him. I love his physicality, He tackles, he doesn't let guys run by him. Why are these two guys your top guys? How much of separating them and what do you like about him?
Well, mckissrey is my number one guy. I mean, he's physical, he's spicty, he does a great job making plays with his back to the ball, consistently doesn't have too many mental lapses. Arnold, I think, has really really stepped it up this year. I think Arnold's has benefited from the fact that teams usually don't like to throw mckissy's way, they throw his in his direction, so he gets to make plays on the ball and he's doing a great job of it. And you know, Arnold's not talked about too much in twitter draft world, but you talk to scouts, you talk to people in the league, decision makers who watch them, and they absolutely love this guy. I think, I don't know he's going to be a first round pick. I have him as the second round right now. I do think mckissry is right now the number one corner I think he's going to be a first round pick. He could be an early first round selection because of the importance of the position, and cornerbacks always go much earlier than it originally anticipated. I have not heard whether Arnold's going to enter the draft. Alabama usually loses a lot of underclassmen. Mckissy is a little bit longer than Arnold's, a little bit bigger than are a little bit more physical. But they both have excellent ball skills. So they've got good ball skills from where they are in their career. They both have terrific upside, and they come from a program that has consistently put good cornerbacks into the NFL.
I think both.
I think both these players are fantastic. And Arnold wasn't really on my radar going into the year just because of how inexperienced he was at that point, so I didn't know if we were talking about a guy who was going to go out in the draft this past year. Definitely watch McKinstry, and I like McKinstry a lot. I mean, he's just got the thing that I love about kool Aid mckinsrey is certainly he plays for Alabama's defensive scheme, which asks you to do You've got to be a smart corner you really do. Like there's a lot of different principles that you got to understand. A lot of man match stuff that you've got to understand. But also a saban defense will require you to play press coverage a decent amount. And for kool aid McKinstry, he has played in press more than half of his coverage snaps in his career, which is a big deal. This guy is so comfortable playing with his back to the ball, and we all talk about, Okay, there's a lot of defensive coordinators that love to get aggressive. And in order to get aggressive, and when I say that, I mean, of course sending extra players on the blitz, getting more pressure on the pocket, you've got to be able to play man coverage. And the best way to do that is to play press man.
Right.
You don't give any guys any you're able to keep up with him for at least three seconds down the field.
You can only do that if you are very comfortable playing with your.
Back to the ball, because some corners are not. Some corners panic. And you see a lot of those guys who may have man coverage skills, but if they're uncomfortable with their back to the ball, if they're uncomfortable reading the eyes or the hands of the body language of the receiver, you see a lot of penalty. You see a lot of allowed receptions. Things like that. McKinstry is not that way, he's so calm when he is playing press coverage and with his back to the ball. He's got a ton of forcing completions because of it, He's got a very low completion.
Percentage allowed overall.
Arnold, to me the reason why I think you're going to see people start to say they maybe like Arnold more than McKinstry.
But it's because Arnold.
Has a little bit more of that quick twitch athleticism and people believe that he has more of a ball hawking nature to him, where mckinstrey, to me, is just this shutdown corner type where you tell him, Okay, go guard their best receiver today and don't let him catch the ball. You might not get an interception, but you're gonna get a handful of passes defended. For Arnold, he might be more of an interception type of a player, but I do think that it's a little bit of a sacrifice. I think he's also going to allow more receptions than a guy like Wholey mcinentsrey would be. So these are two very talented corners. I agree with Tony. I think that they're both top fifty worthy for sure, but I would agree I've got mckinstrey above Arnold at this point, and.
They've actually started using Arnold in the slot a little bit the last few weeks too. They've used them inside, so that's a little versatility, while mcinchreey's pretty much been there outside right cornerback pretty much for the majority of the year. Third guy on your list Tony is Nate Wiggins out of Clemson, and watching him the last couple of days, I think pure coverage wise and movements skill wise, he might actually be my favorite corner in this group. He's long, he's slender, he changes directions extremely well, and you just don't everything looks Everything looks so smooth when he's running. He just never seems strained out there to.
Make physical it. Does a great job covering receivers on crushing patterns, works to get his head back around to track the pass in the air, will just physically beat down opponents to defense rows relatively talented Clemson back the secondary as it usually is right now. I've got him as a second round choice. I thought he played well in twenty twenty two. I think he's playing even better this year. A guy who, again the arrow is pointing north on him. I like his upside with guys like a third year juniors, a third year sophomore, even fourth year juniors at the cornerback position in the secondary, you want to see what they run in the forty. The testing numbers are relatively important for these guys. But Wiggins continually answers the call. He's been a good player for a couple of seasons now with Clemson.
Yeah, I mentioned mckinstrey being a player that you could say, hey, go guard the other team's wide receiver.
But John, I agree with you.
I think if there is a player in this class that you would have the most confidence in saying that's their number one wide receiver, don't let him catch the football, it's probably Nake Wiggins. Even for as much as I like McKinstry, because because Wiggins has a little bit more length to him, he's got a little bit more twitch to him. I think that he struggled to play with strength in run defense and a little bit at the catch point. Not as much as the catchpoint, but certainly in a run defense last year. Since he has come back from injury this year, I feel like he is playing even stronger, like he is clearly not backing down from those physical press coverage assignments where he is right at the line of scrimmage, he's trying to get in guys' faces during the contact window. He is more he's more aggressive when it comes to that contact at the catch point as well, and he's got great ball skills. He had three dropped interceptions last year, which would have bumped his numbers up to I think four or five interceptions along with double digit force and completions. So this is a player that there's no question about it, John, if you want to have him at cornerback one, I don't think a lot of people are gonna fight you want to because I imagine when it's all said and done, I think I to Tony's point, I think that Wiggins is gonna test pretty well. I think he's gonna test pretty athletically, and once that happens as well, you're gonna see a lot of people say, and maybe even myself included, say, Okay, this is the guy that you probably want to take the highest pick on. So you're gonna hear him in the CV one conversation over the next couple of months.
For sure, Tony Kalyn King is your fourth corner I watched him in the offseason. I loved what I saw on his tape last year. I thought he was athletic. I thought he was physically got down hill. I thought i was a pure athlete. He was wonderful. Then I put on his tape from this year and I'm gonna pull one of Trevor's PFF numbers, one forced in completion all year. And that is not because they're not throwing at Kaylin King. He's been targeted a ton and he just frankly, guys are open on him a lot. And I thought he was a potential first round pick coming into the and now I have him as maybe an early third rounder.
To be quite honest with.
You, yeah, I never had that as the first round. It got hammered by Marvin Harrison. I mean, he's got schooled by Marvin Harrison when Penn State played Ohiose.
And it wasn't just Marvin Harrison. There are other receivers got him do in that game.
And the thing is, you know, as Treuble and I were talking about before, you want those cornerbacks who can make plays with the back to their back to the ball. Kaylan King seems to struggle. He does a lot of face guarding. He's very slow getting his head back around the track pass in the air, doesn't do a good job, you know, positioning himself against opponents to make plays when the ball is in the air. As they texted you before, I think that Kayln King in the outside world is overrated. Where I think is his teammate Johnny Dixon, the other cornerback, is actually underrated. I don't think he's going to be an early big Johnny Dixon, but I think he's played exceptionally well. I think there were high expectations, probably too high expectations for Kaylin King, which he was never going to meet this year because he was never that kind of type of cornerback at least to me.
Yeah, man King has really struggled this year. There's no doubt about it.
Now.
The cornerback position is very cyclical, right, I mean I think of guys even at the NFL level, like Aj Terrell.
Aj Terrell had an.
Unbelievable season, believe it was his rookie year in the NFL, and then that sophomore year. I mean it was just off a cliff. I mean, his his grade is the production against him, the catches allowed and you go, wow, Jackal and hide here. Now aj Threll is back to playing really good ball. So that could certainly just be the case with corner because it's a difficult position to play. But you look at last year twenty twenty two, Kaylan King had a ninety three point seven coverage grade in just single coverage in our system, which to earn a elite coverage grade anyways is very, very difficult. This dude had a ninety three point seven just in single coverage situations. I'm lining up against the receiver and I'm not letting him.
Catch the football.
This year forty two point seven, like off a cliff, a full fifty coverage grade points lower this year than it was last year. You mentioned the lack of all production as well. I had a lot of high hopes for this guy because he moved so same year well last year, and it's just like he just does not have the confidence to be able to do that.
I agree.
He looks very hesitant and uncomfortable with his back to the ball. I mean, Marvin Harrison Junior got to cross his face with ease to the point where this guy was like stumbling and coverage against him, and Marvin Harrison Junior is the best receiver in college football. But like, you gotta do better than that. You know, if you're gonna be a first round projected corner, you gotta be a lot better than that. You got to take your your reps against him as well, and he just absolutely did not. So I'm I currently have King I think still in my top five of corners, but I got a bad feeling that when I go over my final rechecks when the regular season is over, I'm not so sure he's gonna make it into my top fives.
All right, Tony, let's go to the next two guys on your list.
You like Josh knew that a TCU, a guy that has not done a lot of attention, and Kamari last at her out of Georgia.
Yeah, I mean, Newton's well, like the scouting community, he's a guy who came into the season with second round grades, consistent second round grades. He's a good corner guy. Not the biggest guy in the world. He's not going to measure six foot tall, but he's fast, he plays smart football. He does a decent job making plays with his back to the ball. Lassiter I think is just another real good cornerback that's going to come out of George. He's got excellent size, he's physical, he's very explosive, really mixes it up with the receivers throughout the route very well. I think he's got a high upside. I think Lassiter is a guy who probably has better upside than Newton when you compare the two, but Newton's a little bit more polished at this point.
I worry about Last's change the direction a little bit. Trev.
Sometimes if he's like in a string line on the perimeter, he's good. I've seen some guys put some double moves on him and there's been some problems with those.
Yeah, no doubt.
And I think that was a question for last year kind of going into the season, is you know, what are you going to be now that like you're the guy, right? I mean Keey Ringo for as much as okay he was, he only ended up being a fourth round pick, but we talked about kee Ringo as CB one with Georgia and n S scheme, so then it was now it was Lasser like he was the guy in the secondary to really command a lot of wide receiver won attention. So I think that he has done well. But he is somebody to me that wins, not that he's not a good athlete, but he wins more with the strength part of his game. Like he is a fearless type of player. He will disrupt the catch point, he will come up and run defense. If you want a good game to watch, to be able to see that, go watch the early game against South Carolina that he had in the season. He's lined up against Xavier Lagette from South Carolina a lot, and that dude is six three to two hundred and twenty seven pounds and he is just a crazy athlete for his size. And yet you see a guy like Lassiter play pretty fearless against him. And in fact, there were a couple of players where there are a couple of jump balls where they just throw it up to Lagett and last year is all in his face and made a couple of incompletions out of it.
So to me, over.
Testing is going to be huge for last year. Like if he can really hit some benchmarks and testing, he can, I think he can be a first round corner, but I feel as though it's more going to be him being a second round guy. He's still had really solid a corner from that Georgia lineage.
Like Tony was mentioned.
All right, Tony, I want to jump on a couple other guys.
You have third round grades on Denzel Bark from Ohio State, who he's kind of the opposite of Kaitlyn King.
For me, I did not like his tape last year.
I thought he got better towards the end of last season, but I think he's really carried that over this year and I think he's played really, really well. I think he's gonna rise a little bit here as we move forward. And I'm a big fan of Cooper de John out of Iowa. I think he's a good, good ball production, good special teams player, obviously a return guy.
I like both those players an awful lot.
Jon I mean just an amazing athlete. I mean an incredible athlete who has come up big as both the return specialists and cornerback this year at this past season for Iowa. I think he still needs a little bit of work on his ball skills as far as making plays with his back to the ball. Burke is being consistent. I mean Burke never really stood out to me as someone who was great, but he's been very consistent throughout his Ohio State career and as we you know we talked about with Alabama, Ohio State is consistently putting solid corners into the NFL and into the NFL Draft. I think there's a lot to like with Burke. I think Dijon, if he really irons out his game, he's got tremendous upside just based on his athleticism alone, his size, his speed. I mean, he's got big time potential. He's got that upside, but he's got a bit of growing to do with the position.
Yeah, Dijon is I mean, he is such a good football player.
Man.
You know, he plays outside corner right now for Iowa, but like Tony mentioned, he's a little uncomfortable with his back to the ball. They don't ask him to play that a lot. He's a Their scheme is very off coverage, cover three type of a scheme, and so you don't really get to see and that's kind of disappointing because Dejon is six foot one, two hundred and seven pounds. You go, all right, you got the measurables to play press coverage, like go up and be physical with guys of the line scrimmage, and I also think he's a good enough athlete to be able to do it. Iowa just doesn't ask him to do it a ton now. I think that for as great of a straight line athlete as he is, sometimes it takes him a little longer to get up to that top speed just because he is a bigger player. But I can't help but wonder what Cooper de Jon would be in the Antoine Winfield junior role where he gets to play a free safety and be a ballhawking, instinctual free safety like we have seen him be on in off coverage at Iowa, but then also allow him to be a slot defender, come down to be a slot defender like antwoinanfield junior does against bigger guys against tight ends. You know these teams that will play their tight ends a lot in the slots. So it's kind of a projected role because he does not play there right now. He plays that outside cornerback spot. But he is just such a good athlete. I have a hard time thinking that a player of his caliber is getting out of the second round because of everything that you would be able to do with him on the back end.
You have thoughts on Burke Trevor real quick.
Yeah, I think that Burke. I agree with you, John.
I watched Burke last year and it was not my favorite watch. I'll say I think his true freshman season he played decent in the amount that he was able to go out there, and then last season it was a struggle.
Now, I think he was beat.
Up a little bit, and so I kind of was like, Okay, injuries could go into this, because he did get better as the year went on in twenty twenty two. This year, he just looks more confident, He looks more comfortable. I don't think he's a first round type of a corner, but he is somebody who I think could be a starting caliber corner at the NFL level. A CB two is CB three, something like that. I do think that he has that ability, and this has been his best year so far, and.
The consistency has been key.
Like Tony said, all right, I'll give both you guys a chance to bring up any other cornerback prospect you want that really has jumped out to you.
One or two guys. Troubl Wy, don't you go first?
Okay, so a man, only one or two guys. I've watched so many corners and I like him.
I'll shout out of TJ.
Tampa from Iowa State. This dude, you talk about bigger corner, six foot two, two hundred and five pounds. He's got the length, but he's also got that confidence. He moves pretty damn well for a player of his size. Naturally, when you'll watch a corner that is a bigger size, sometimes you go, oh, he doesn't move nearly as well. Well, Okay, are you comparing a six foot two guys moving skills to a five foot nine to five foot ten, Because there's difference. They just physically have less body to move to flip the hips to move, and that is important for playing corner. But I think for his size, it's important to remember Tampa is athletic enough, and I think he's got.
Great ball skills.
So those long arms that he has, you know, it is it's kind of like that Tyreek Wooland thing. He's not the athlete that Tyrek Woolan is, but he's one of those players where, man, he's got those long vines to him. Where that ball is anywhere near him, he's gonna be able to contest it because he can get his arms up in there so Iowa States, TJ.
Tampa.
If you like longer length corners, he's gonna be a guy that you.
Like in his class.
How about you, Ton, Well, two guys, and the first one is he doesn't jump off the charts. He jumps off the film and off the screen of me at times. That would be Max Melton the Rutgers. And you don't know what you get with Max Melton. Two years ago when he's a sophomore, he looked like, Wow, this guy's gonna be a first round pick. Did not play well in twenty twenty two. He's up and down. I mean, he's got great measurable He's gonna be about six foot two, over two hundred pounds. He's more athletic than his older brother, Bo Melton. If you remember how he tested at the combine a few years ago. He's just got so much upside and so much great potential, which he shows on occasion. So Max Melton is gonna be a guy that's gonna be interesting to watch through the process. He may be a guy that's drafted overdrafted, goes much earlier, and people think because of those measurables, because of the size, because of the athleticism and what he's done in the past. Another guy I gotta mention, I'm glad to see he's finally rounding back into shape is Tyke Smith of Georgia. Started off at West Virginia, transferred to Georgia. Was a phenomenal cornerback when he was at West Virginia, came to Georgia, got injured, missed a lot of playing time in the past two seasons, starting to get it back to where he was when he had that great season that at the West Virginia's got four interceptions this year, thirty one tackles. He's gonna be a late round pick, but he's a guy who before his injury, really showed top one hundred potential.
Treg Before we get to the safety, what's your overall take on the dB class cornerback, safety, Compare the quality, the depth, top go through the gamut for both those spots. This class compared to maybe classes the last few years that fans are familiar with.
Yeah, I think it's a really good class. I think this and just overall, I think a lot of the premium positions quarterback, offensive tackle, edge rusher, and then corner as well.
You can throw that in there.
They're pretty strong in this year's class, So you might have, you know, some people who say, like I got, you know, two first round grades on corners. But even if you do, there's probably a lot of names that you have littered around your day two range. But I think you'll also start to talk to people who maybe like four corners, five corners potentially in the first round.
And so, like, the talent is there, it's just kind of the beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
And then for the safety class, you know, I don't know if there's this surefire, gotta have them safety that's going to be really coveted within the top twenty, but I know we'll get to some names coming up. I think there's a handful of safeties that can certainly be starters at the NFL level, and we don't always get that every single year. So there's at least traits and players to bet on in both categories. So it would make for at least a really exciting year for people to follow and get to know these names as they see where they end up getting drafted.
All right, so let's go to safety, Tony. You don't have a first or second round grade on a safety.
Yet No, not yet, And.
I mean I think that's because of game is being played. I mean a lot of your safeties are now playing linebacker. They're undersized basically linebackers, and a lot of with so many three and four receiver sets, you got more corners on the field than you do safety, so the position is really never developed on the college level. Then it's rejection on Sunday.
Who are the top guys on your list? Wh do you like?
I like both of the Miami Florida kids. James Williams, who is an oversized safety. Actually he may end up playing a linebacker in the NFL. He's big, he's physical, he's got excellent range, and his team rate. Cameron Kitchens who really probably has better ball skills, a little bit more sideline to sideline, a guy who's a little bit better over the slot receiver. But again, both of these guys I think are late Day two selections play at the next level, but they're not your prototypical in my opinion, complete safety, No rangey free safeties, No guy that's going to be consistently no Brian Branches, if you will. From what we saw on this past.
Draft, man James Williams is bill.
Like like a light defensive end. He's like six foot five, two hundred and twenty pounds out there. So you talk about box safety, these guys playing more at the linebacker level. He is somebody who you know, I kind of want that from him, but I come away every time I feel like.
I watch him.
There are times when he will be really physical, like if a receiver comes over the middle, or if he's lined up with a running back. Sometimes if I even seen this on like hits on the quarterback, he will blast you. And he's got the power of the athleticism to be able to do that. But there are other times where you know he's got to do the dirty work, kind of take it on a block like a pulling guard or something like that, where I don't see that pop, Like I don't see that strength, and it's like, man, I think that I would think more highly of you as a box defender, as a box safety because he also plays in the slot too. I would think more highly of him if I felt like I got that strength every down, but I don't. And you know, there are even a couple of times in this past game that I was watching against Florida State. It's like, Man, you had the ball carrier almost like lined up, you had the right pursuit angle, you had him right there. You just kind of didn't decide to go all in on the tackle the way that I feel like you should have. So he is a very talented player. Frustrating one for me, though, I like cam Kinchins a lot more. I'm comfortably I have Kitchens higher than Williams because Kinchins does have that versatility where he could play free safety for you. He could play strong safety, he could play in the slot. He does have some free safety ability. I think I'm a little higher on his range potential than it sounds like Tony is what I need. What I would love to see from Kinchins more is even better anticipation because there are times when and I understand, like I'm watching it on the film, so it's different when you're going through it in real time.
But there are so many instances where I.
Go if you just saw that just a split second, sooner you're making a play on the ball, you're getting an interception, or you're making a play when the ball gets there and you're probably dis lodging it for no.
Catches, So he to me has so many He's made a lot of great plays.
I'm not saying that he doesn't made great plays, but he also on top of that, has so much many almost great plays that that makes me think, hey, more experienced from this guy. You get him a really good secondary coach. Will you be talking about somebody who's going to be a difference maker.
Is Kinchin's your top safety in the class, Trav.
Yeah, I've still got Kinchins is my top safety. I can't wait to see how he tests because there are sometimes when I watch him go sideline the sideline, I go.
Okay, you opened it up there a little bit. You got you got some deep speed to you.
But then there are other times when I'm like, man, I thought you I thought you would have had that. I thought I thought I could have seen you make an impact on the ball on that play. So how he tests athletically, I think it's going to be huge, because, like Tony mentioned, there's not a ton of guys that you feel great about when it comes to that center fielder single high athleticism. There's one that I think that we'll talk about that I'm not worried about. But everybody else is kind of a question mark until we get to the combine.
Tony, you have seven other safeties with third round grades here, So I'm just gonna leave the table over. But which which one of these guys do you really want to feature? And you would talk about that that you really think you're interesting hit as many of them as you want.
Well, let's let's go with Trevor. I want to hear that one guy that he's really excited to talk about, ticket Trevor.
I think that Kaln Bullock, the safety from USC, is the only one that I'm not really worried about at all when it comes to a free safety role.
Now.
He is rail thin and he's so he's got to gain weight and he's got to gain strength. He's got to play a lot better because in run defense, his numbers he's got too many misstackles. The run defense grades over the last couple of years are way lower than you need to be for a safety type of a player. To take the word literally, but there are so many instances where he's going opposite Hash all the way to the sideline to make an impact on the ball, where you just go WHOA, Okay, this guy's got legit range to him. So the athletic ability is not something that I'm worried about with Bullock, but I am worried about does he make too many mistakes tackling in run defense to even get on the field the way that you would want him to be to get to play those single high situations. So he's the one guy that I'm not really worried about at all when it comes to the athleticism, but it's not a perfect prospect in terms of rounding out his entire game.
And he was the third guy on Tony's list.
By the way, Tony very athletic. I think he's got some ability to play over the slot receiver on occasion. Decent ball skills, as Trevor was pointing out, you know, great speed, great range, but you know, unpolished. I like Jayden Hicks of Washington State, same same conference, a much bigger guy, very explosive, very quick. It really shows the ability to blow up the ball handler. Decent ball skills facing the action. Tyler Newban, guy who went back for a second senior season where he could have entered last year's draft. This past Aprils draft, I should say, you know a guy who's very good in all areas but doesn't stand out in any single aspect. I think he's more Tyler Newman. I don't know if he's a sideline to sideline safety as opposed to a downhill guy, guy that you're gonna play in his own system, and that's Andrew mccouba of Clemson. He's got decent traits, but again, you know, not your prototypical, not your complete safety mccuba. Again, is he a sideline sideline guy. I don't think so. Again, I think he's better facing the action, more in his own system, downhill type of safety.
I love that you shouted out Jayden Hicks. He was one of my favorite surprises that I had during summer scout. Again, I was doing a little background information on I'm reading some stories and I read a quote from him where his freshman season at Washington State he played I don't want to sound too harsh here, but like he played so poorly and not impactfully. Like he even says in the interview, I doubted whether or not I could play at the Pac twelve level. He's like, I didn't even know if I was talented enough to play at this level. But I think that didn't turn into more self doubt. It turned into motivation for him. And that sophomore season in twenty twenty two, you saw him not only be a much better playmaker, but a much better anticipator and communicator. He's yelling things out. It's just a very young player. To the rest of his defense, you can tell that he was anticipating where the ball was going. That has only continued in this year. So really smart football player. I love the shout out there, mccouba. I kind of feel the same way that you do.
Is more of a downhill guy. Nuban.
I like Newban a good amount, but I do feel as though he needs to be in primarily a two deep safety system. Like I know that he has played single high free safety before because he can anticipate really well. That works at the Big ten college level. I don't think he's that type of athlete to be able to play those roles consistently at the NFL level, But he is smart, he anticipates well, he's got good ball skills, and I think he's a reliable downhill defender. So I agree with you on the role there. I think that he's got to be more of a two safety system more than a like Cover three. We're playing a lot of single high free safety stuff. I don't think he necessarily wanted to do that.
All right, final thing for you, Turev, We've we've got a little over here, a lot of stuff to talk about. Just give me one or two other safeties that you really like that. They don't have to be your early picks. They could be later picks. Guys that you've kind of watched that you're like, all right, this guy's got a little something that I really like.
Yeah, okay, I'll throw out two really quick. Rod Moore from Michigan I liked a decent amount going into the season. He missed a good amount of time going into the year, so we've really got to see him warm up. We've got some really big games for Michigan to play, I think, throughout the stretch of the season, so he has a chance to kind of climb this safety room. And then somebody that I kind of got on recently is is.
Billy Bowman junior from Oklahoma.
I think he's a little boomer bust right now, but he is one of those playmakers on the back end where if he's been given the room in coverage, he's been pretty impactful or at least has a handful of plays that he's getting interceptions, or he's cutting off a route and making a big hit on a tight end like he did to Jitavian Sanders in that Texas game. And so he's just to me, he's got that playmaker's mentality. It's not totally consistent right now, and you need to see a little bit more of it, but I love the way that he sees the game, and so he's still making mistakes, but I just love that playmaker mentality that he has.
Tony, I'll give you the final award.
You can do safeties or anything else you want to get off your chest before we take it.
I'm gonna give you one guy, one safety. Malik Mustafa of Wait for Us. This is a guy who when I watched him, I watched the twenty twenty two film. Everyone talks about the cornerback Carson. This was the guy that was constantly around the ball, making plays against the pass stuff in the run five two six pounds. Has got great instincts. I mean, the guy knows what's gonna happen before it even happens, doesn't have any mental letdowns on the field. You know, when we had Ruce Feldman on one of the first shows of the season, he said that Mustafa is going to test through the roofs I think through the roof. I think Mustafa is going to be a guy who's going to be underdrafted. And then during the twenty twenty four season, people are going to wonder why this guy was in the top forty five selection.
All right, Trevor, tell the folks when they you'll find all the stuff you're doing.
Uh NFL Stocky Change.
You shouted out the NFL Stocky Change podcast where not only audio, but we're also on video on YouTube as well for anybody that takes in a lot of their content and video format. And then of course PFF dot com. We've got the big Boy that we're updating all the time. And if you want to make the mock draft, of course the mock draft simulator that we have there, So just keep checking back in on that one and we're adding names to it all the time so you guys can have as much fun on the mock as possible.
Tony dried this a lot of fun boys, happy scouting rest of the way, appreciate it. For Trevor, for Tony, I'm josh Bon. Thanks for being with us on draft season. We'll see you next time.
Everybody,
