Ben Rhodes was the Deputy National Security Advisor for President Barack Obama.

 

A foreign policy expert, he is the host of ‘Pod Save The World’ and appears on MSNBC. His latest book ‘After the Fall: Being American in the World We've Made’ is a study of the rising tide of global authoritarianism, exploring why democracy did not prevail as expected after the fall of the Soviet Union. 

 

Misha Zelinsky caught up with Ben for a chinwag about his new book, including how the failure to punish bankers responsible for the GFC helped fuel the global rise of authoritarianism, why democracy needs to materially deliver in order for people to believe in it, how an obsession with profits is undermining the fight against the Chinese Communist Party, how democracy itself is becoming a partisan issue in the US, why social media must be regulated, how Joe Biden was right about Afghanistan all along, what Obama is like a person, and how fighting for democracy in America should give confidence to global democratic activists fighting for their own.

 

Be sure to tune in for his 'BBQ' answer which is a lot of fun. Ben also reveals his favourite Australian Prime Minister!

 

If this is your first time tuning in, please make sure to rate and review the show. it really helps spread the word.

 

Other show notes:

 

After the Fall: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/609428/after-the-fall-by-ben-rhodes/

Pod Save the World: https://crooked.com/podcast-series/pod-save-the-world/

Ben Rhodes: @brhodes

Misha Zelinsky socials: @mishazelinsky

Diplomates socials: @diplomatesshow

Ben Rhodes was the Deputy National Security Advisor for President Barack Obama.
&nbsp;
A foreign policy expert, he is the host of &lsquo;Pod Save The World&rsquo; and appears on MSNBC. His latest book &lsquo;After the Fall: Being American in the World We've Made&rsquo; is a study of the rising tide of global authoritarianism, exploring why democracy did not prevail as expected after the fall of the Soviet Union.&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Misha Zelinsky caught up with Ben for a chinwag about his new book, including how the failure to punish bankers responsible for the GFC helped fuel the global rise of authoritarianism, why democracy needs to materially deliver in order for people to believe in it, how an obsession with profits is undermining the fight against the Chinese Communist Party, how democracy itself is becoming a partisan issue in the US, why social media must be regulated, how Joe Biden was right about Afghanistan all along, what Obama is like a person, and how fighting for democracy in America should give confidence to global democratic activists fighting for their own.
&nbsp;
Be sure to tune in for his&nbsp;'BBQ' answer which is a lot of fun. Ben also reveals his favourite Australian Prime Minister!
&nbsp;
If this is your first time tuning in, please make sure to rate and review the show. it really helps spread the word.
&nbsp;
Other show notes:
&nbsp;
After the Fall:&nbsp;<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/609428/after-the-fall-by-ben-rhodes/" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/609428/after-the-fall-by-ben-rhodes/&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1631544783833000&amp;usg=AFQjCNGbi1pqcv28U4wylke7FacC86zTWg">https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/609428/after-the-fall-by-ben-rhodes/</a>
Pod Save the World:&nbsp;<a href="https://crooked.com/podcast-series/pod-save-the-world/" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://crooked.com/podcast-series/pod-save-the-world/&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1631544783833000&amp;usg=AFQjCNGR_veBueKp0OjLr3y9fHQwgwfLCA">https://crooked.com/podcast-series/pod-save-the-world/</a>
Ben Rhodes: @brhodes
Misha Zelinsky socials: @mishazelinsky
Diplomates socials: @diplomatesshow

The podcast spreading mateship and chatting geopolitics. Diplomates* is the podcast giving you the definitive answers to the key questions facing Australia and the world. Our guests are the leading foreign policy experts, thinkers and political big wigs from around the world. Each episode is a deep dive into the very latest trends in global affairs. We mine the expertise of our guests and hand it over to you for your listening pleasure. Our 'Chinwags' are hosted by Misha Zelinsky; the Aussie policy nerd you never knew you needed to know. And make sure you stay tuned for our world famous, patented BBQ questions. Because, let's be honest, what the world absolutely needs is another nerdy political podcast hosted by an unknown Australian. *DiploMATES, get it?

Diplomates – A Geopolitical Chinwag

Ben Rhodes: After The Fall - Democracy, Authoritarianism and America

G'day Diplomates fans:
To round out the year, we had our great friend Hagar Chemali on discuss EVERYTHING happening in the world:
Including:
-- Israel Palestine and what happens next-- Trump in 2024-- The politics of Ukraine aid-- Hong Kong and Russian 'elections'-- India, Canada and the politics of assassinations
AND MORE!
Please get yourself a copy of The Sun Will Rise

The Sun Will Rise is inspired by true events and dedicated to the brave heroes of Ukraine. It is based on Misha’s reporting from inside Ukraine, real events from the war as well as the complex history between Russia and Ukraine.

ABOUT THE SUN WILL RISE:

Oksana Shevchenko remembers life as it once was.

Before the War.

Before the Invaders stripped her freedom away.

Before the Motherland decided to take what wasn’t hers, and call it her own.

As the leader of the local Union, thirty-one-year-old Oksana has met her match in enemy officer Lieutenant General Mikhailovich, who will stop at nothing to win glory for the Motherland – and himself. 

After he captures the city of Heryvin, the young, ambitious Mikhailovich forces Oksana and her Union comrades to operate the local nuclear power plant for the Motherland’s gain, while sapping its capacity to operate safely. 

It’s a nightmare for a city still reeling from the disastrous Accident that took the lives of dozens – including Oksana’s father – decades before.

Caught between her loyalty to those resisting the Occupation and a nuclear catastrophe threatened by increasingly impossible orders, Oksana must find a way to defeat Mikhailovich before his sadistic determination leads him to doing the unthinkable. 

But Oksana might not be alone in her fight, because war makes heroes out of the ordinary and unlikely.

A grandmother defiantly waving the colour of her nation.

A principal offering a safe haven for students dreaming of brighter futures.

A young adult choosing courage in the face of mortal danger.

A country quietly showing that glory belongs to those who dare to hold on against impossible odds. 

Because one day soon, the sun will set on dictators. 

And the sun will rise on freedom once again.

Inspired by true events in Ukraine, The Sun Will Rise is a tribute to those bravely fighting for their freedom – and ours.

PRAISE FOR THE SUN WILL RISE:

Stirring, brilliant, soulful. An Orwellian tale, evoking the very essence of Ukraine’s fight for freedom and our right to exist” 

— Kira Rudyk, leading Ukrainian Member of Parliament.

“A love letter to the human spirit, Zelinsky’s deeply personal coverage of Russia’s invasion comes to life in this stunning first novel. An affecting story about the humanity behind the news” 

— Wayne Swan, President of the Australian Labor Party, former deputy prime minister and world finance minister of the year. 

“Zelinsky’s outstanding journalism transported Russian brutality and Ukrainian bravery from the battlefront to our homes. Now, this story gives us a reason to hope” 

— Ambassador, Vasyl Myroshnychenko, Ukraine’s Ambassador to Australia.

“Misha Zelinsky has penned a gripping book which although fictional, depicts the courage, strength and conviction of the Ukrainian people fighting for their freedom and sovereignty. Once you pick up The Sun Will Rise, you will not be able to put it down.  It is an exciting read. 

— Ambassador Paula J. Dobriansky, former Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs (2001-2009)

“A gripping page-turner, set in Ukraine in the wake of Russia's invasion. Misha Zelinsky has captured the bravery and humanity of Ukrainians living under occupation, as well as the callousness and cynicism of Vladimir Putin's soldiers. Original, compelling, and topical, The Sun Will Rise is an impressive novel which brings to life recent history.”

— Luke Harding, award-winning foreign correspondent with the Guardian and New York Times best selling author of books including Invasion: Russia's Bloody War and Ukraine's Fight for Survival, shortlisted for the Orwell prize.

“Zelinsky has turned his superb war reportage into a riveting first novel, inspired by real people and events, but transcending them to convey the heart behind the conflict. If you want to know why Ukrainians fight and why it's our fight too, this is the place to start. Reminiscent of Disraeli—a novelist turned British statesman—a writer with such soul, who knows what makes people and countries great, would be a rare addition to our public life. 

 — The Hon. Tony Abbott, 28th prime minister of Australia.

G'day Diplomates fans: To round out the year, we had our great friend Hagar Chemali on discuss EVERYTHING happening in the world: Including: -- Israel Palestine and what happens next-- Trump in 2024-- The politics of Ukraine aid-- Hong Kong and Russian 'elections'-- India, Canada and the politics of assassinations AND MORE! Please get yourself a copy of The Sun Will Rise
The Sun Will Rise is inspired by true events and dedicated to the brave heroes of Ukraine. It is based on Misha’s reporting from inside Ukraine, real events from the war as well as the complex history between Russia and Ukraine.
ABOUT THE SUN WILL RISE:
Oksana Shevchenko remembers life as it once was.
Before the War.
Before the Invaders stripped her freedom away.
Before the Motherland decided to take what wasn’t hers, and call it her own.
As the leader of the local Union, thirty-one-year-old Oksana has met her match in enemy officer Lieutenant General Mikhailovich, who will stop at nothing to win glory for the Motherland – and himself. 
After he captures the city of Heryvin, the young, ambitious Mikhailovich forces Oksana and her Union comrades to operate the local nuclear power plant for the Motherland’s gain, while sapping its capacity to operate safely. 
It’s a nightmare for a city still reeling from the disastrous Accident that took the lives of dozens – including Oksana’s father – decades before.
Caught between her loyalty to those resisting the Occupation and a nuclear catastrophe threatened by increasingly impossible orders, Oksana must find a way to defeat Mikhailovich before his sadistic determination leads him to doing the unthinkable. 
But Oksana might not be alone in her fight, because war makes heroes out of the ordinary and unlikely.
A grandmother defiantly waving the colour of her nation.
A principal offering a safe haven for students dreaming of brighter futures.
A young adult choosing courage in the face of mortal danger.
A country quietly showing that glory belongs to those who dare to hold on against impossible odds. 
Because one day soon, the sun will set on dictators. 
And the sun will rise on freedom once again.
Inspired by true events in Ukraine, The Sun Will Rise is a tribute to those bravely fighting for their freedom – and ours.
PRAISE FOR THE SUN WILL RISE:
Stirring, brilliant, soulful. An Orwellian tale, evoking the very essence of Ukraine’s fight for freedom and our right to exist” 
— Kira Rudyk, leading Ukrainian Member of Parliament.
“A love letter to the human spirit, Zelinsky’s deeply personal coverage of Russia’s invasion comes to life in this stunning first novel. An affecting story about the humanity behind the news” 
— Wayne Swan, President of the Australian Labor Party, former deputy prime minister and world finance minister of the year. 
“Zelinsky’s outstanding journalism transported Russian brutality and Ukrainian bravery from the battlefront to our homes. Now, this story gives us a reason to hope” 
— Ambassador, Vasyl Myroshnychenko, Ukraine’s Ambassador to Australia.
“Misha Zelinsky has penned a gripping book which although fictional, depicts the courage, strength and conviction of the Ukrainian people fighting for their freedom and sovereignty. Once you pick up The Sun Will Rise, you will not be able to put it down.  It is an exciting read.  
— Ambassador Paula J. Dobriansky, former Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs (2001-2009)
“A gripping page-turner, set in Ukraine in the wake of Russia's invasion. Misha Zelinsky has captured the bravery and humanity of Ukrainians living under occupation, as well as the callousness and cynicism of Vladimir Putin's soldiers. Original, compelling, and topical, The Sun Will Rise is an impressive novel which brings to life recent history.”
— Luke Harding, award-winning foreign correspondent with the Guardian and New York Times best selling author of books including Invasion: Russia's Bloody War and Ukraine's Fight for Survival, shortlisted for the Orwell prize.
“Zelinsky has turned his superb war reportage into a riveting first novel, inspired by real people and events, but transcending them to convey the heart behind the conflict. If you want to know why Ukrainians fight and why it's our fight too, this is the place to start. Reminiscent of Disraeli—a novelist turned British statesman—a writer with such soul, who knows what makes people and countries great, would be a rare addition to our public life. 
 — The Hon. Tony Abbott, 28th prime minister of Australia.

Christmasode: Will democracy survive in 2024? Let's find out!

In a special episode of Diplomates, the roles have been reversed as our host, Misha Zelinsky takes the hot seat! 

Legendary Australian journalist and geopolitical analyst, Peter Hartcher of the Sydney Morning Herald interviews Misha Zelinsky about his new book: The Sun Will Rise.

The Sun Will Rise is inspired by true events and dedicated to the brave heroes of Ukraine. It is based on Misha’s reporting from inside Ukraine, real events from the war as well as the complex history between Russia and Ukraine.

Misha and Peter discuss:

— Misha’s experiences in Ukraine covering the war for the Australian Financial Review.

— Why the invasion of Ukraine is a hinge moment of history. 

— How democracies must respond to Putin’s invasion and why other Dictators are watching closely.

— The use of fiction over facts.

— The inspiration behind the story and characters.

— What happens next in the war.

Get your copy now: www.thesunwillrisebook.com

ABOUT THE SUN WILL RISE:

Oksana Shevchenko remembers life as it once was.

Before the War.

Before the Invaders stripped her freedom away.

Before the Motherland decided to take what wasn’t hers, and call it her own.

As the leader of the local Union, thirty-one-year-old Oksana has met her match in enemy officer Lieutenant General Mikhailovich, who will stop at nothing to win glory for the Motherland – and himself. 

After he captures the city of Heryvin, the young, ambitious Mikhailovich forces Oksana and her Union comrades to operate the local nuclear power plant for the Motherland’s gain, while sapping its capacity to operate safely. 

It’s a nightmare for a city still reeling from the disastrous Accident that took the lives of dozens – including Oksana’s father – decades before.

Caught between her loyalty to those resisting the Occupation and a nuclear catastrophe threatened by increasingly impossible orders, Oksana must find a way to defeat Mikhailovich before his sadistic determination leads him to doing the unthinkable. 

But Oksana might not be alone in her fight, because war makes heroes out of the ordinary and unlikely.

A grandmother defiantly waving the colour of her nation.

A principal offering a safe haven for students dreaming of brighter futures.

A young adult choosing courage in the face of mortal danger.

A country quietly showing that glory belongs to those who dare to hold on against impossible odds. 

Because one day soon, the sun will set on dictators. 

And the sun will rise on freedom once again.

Inspired by true events in Ukraine, The Sun Will Rise is a tribute to those bravely fighting for their freedom – and ours.

PRAISE FOR THE SUN WILL RISE:

Stirring, brilliant, soulful. An Orwellian tale, evoking the very essence of Ukraine’s fight for freedom and our right to exist” 

— Kira Rudyk, leading Ukrainian Member of Parliament.

“A love letter to the human spirit, Zelinsky’s deeply personal coverage of Russia’s invasion comes to life in this stunning first novel. An affecting story about the humanity behind the news” 

— Wayne Swan, President of the Australian Labor Party, former deputy prime minister and world finance minister of the year. 

“Zelinsky’s outstanding journalism transported Russian brutality and Ukrainian bravery from the battlefront to our homes. Now, this story gives us a reason to hope” 

— Ambassador, Vasyl Myroshnychenko, Ukraine’s Ambassador to Australia.

“Misha Zelinsky has penned a gripping book which although fictional, depicts the courage, strength and conviction of the Ukrainian people fighting for their freedom and sovereignty. Once you pick up The Sun Will Rise, you will not be able to put it down.  It is an exciting read.  

— Ambassador Paula J. Dobriansky, former Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs (2001-2009)

“A gripping page-turner, set in Ukraine in the wake of Russia's invasion. Misha Zelinsky has captured the bravery and humanity of Ukrainians living under occupation, as well as the callousness and cynicism of Vladimir Putin's soldiers. Original, compelling, and topical, The Sun Will Rise is an impressive novel which brings to life recent history.”

— Luke Harding, award-winning foreign correspondent with the Guardian and New York Times best selling author of books including Invasion: Russia's Bloody War and Ukraine's Fight for Survival, shortlisted for the Orwell prize.

“Zelinsky has turned his superb war reportage into a riveting first novel, inspired by real people and events, but transcending them to convey the heart behind the conflict. If you want to know why Ukrainians fight and why it's our fight too, this is the place to start. Reminiscent of Disraeli—a novelist turned British statesman—a writer with such soul, who knows what makes people and countries great, would be a rare addition to our public life. 

 — The Hon. Tony Abbott, 28th prime minister of Australia.

In a special episode of Diplomates, the roles have been reversed as our host, Misha Zelinsky takes the hot seat! 
Legendary Australian journalist and geopolitical analyst, Peter Hartcher of the Sydney Morning Herald interviews Misha Zelinsky about his new book: The Sun Will Rise.
The Sun Will Rise is inspired by true events and dedicated to the brave heroes of Ukraine. It is based on Misha’s reporting from inside Ukraine, real events from the war as well as the complex history between Russia and Ukraine.
Misha and Peter discuss:
— Misha’s experiences in Ukraine covering the war for the Australian Financial Review.
— Why the invasion of Ukraine is a hinge moment of history. 
— How democracies must respond to Putin’s invasion and why other Dictators are watching closely.
— The use of fiction over facts.
— The inspiration behind the story and characters.
— What happens next in the war.
Get your copy now: <a href="http://www.thesunwillrisebook.com/" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.thesunwillrisebook.com&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1701230474100000&amp;usg=AOvVaw2E-gbuFhJOjddi6yen4BEy">www.thesunwillrisebook.com</a>
ABOUT THE SUN WILL RISE:
Oksana Shevchenko remembers life as it once was.
Before the War.
Before the Invaders stripped her freedom away.
Before the Motherland decided to take what wasn’t hers, and call it her own.
As the leader of the local Union, thirty-one-year-old Oksana has met her match in enemy officer Lieutenant General Mikhailovich, who will stop at nothing to win glory for the Motherland – and himself. 
After he captures the city of Heryvin, the young, ambitious Mikhailovich forces Oksana and her Union comrades to operate the local nuclear power plant for the Motherland’s gain, while sapping its capacity to operate safely. 
It’s a nightmare for a city still reeling from the disastrous Accident that took the lives of dozens – including Oksana’s father – decades before.
Caught between her loyalty to those resisting the Occupation and a nuclear catastrophe threatened by increasingly impossible orders, Oksana must find a way to defeat Mikhailovich before his sadistic determination leads him to doing the unthinkable. 
But Oksana might not be alone in her fight, because war makes heroes out of the ordinary and unlikely.
A grandmother defiantly waving the colour of her nation.
A principal offering a safe haven for students dreaming of brighter futures.
A young adult choosing courage in the face of mortal danger.
A country quietly showing that glory belongs to those who dare to hold on against impossible odds. 
Because one day soon, the sun will set on dictators. 
And the sun will rise on freedom once again.
Inspired by true events in Ukraine, The Sun Will Rise is a tribute to those bravely fighting for their freedom – and ours.
PRAISE FOR THE SUN WILL RISE:
Stirring, brilliant, soulful. An Orwellian tale, evoking the very essence of Ukraine’s fight for freedom and our right to exist” 
— Kira Rudyk, leading Ukrainian Member of Parliament.
“A love letter to the human spirit, Zelinsky’s deeply personal coverage of Russia’s invasion comes to life in this stunning first novel. An affecting story about the humanity behind the news” 
— Wayne Swan, President of the Australian Labor Party, former deputy prime minister and world finance minister of the year. 
“Zelinsky’s outstanding journalism transported Russian brutality and Ukrainian bravery from the battlefront to our homes. Now, this story gives us a reason to hope” 
— Ambassador, Vasyl Myroshnychenko, Ukraine’s Ambassador to Australia.
“Misha Zelinsky has penned a gripping book which although fictional, depicts the courage, strength and conviction of the Ukrainian people fighting for their freedom and sovereignty. Once you pick up The Sun Will Rise, you will not be able to put it down.  It is an exciting read.  
— Ambassador Paula J. Dobriansky, former Under Secretary of State for Global Affairs (2001-2009)
“A gripping page-turner, set in Ukraine in the wake of Russia's invasion. Misha Zelinsky has captured the bravery and humanity of Ukrainians living under occupation, as well as the callousness and cynicism of Vladimir Putin's soldiers. Original, compelling, and topical, The Sun Will Rise is an impressive novel which brings to life recent history.”
— Luke Harding, award-winning foreign correspondent with the Guardian and New York Times best selling author of books including Invasion: Russia's Bloody War and Ukraine's Fight for Survival, shortlisted for the Orwell prize.
“Zelinsky has turned his superb war reportage into a riveting first novel, inspired by real people and events, but transcending them to convey the heart behind the conflict. If you want to know why Ukrainians fight and why it's our fight too, this is the place to start. Reminiscent of Disraeli—a novelist turned British statesman—a writer with such soul, who knows what makes people and countries great, would be a rare addition to our public life. 
 — The Hon. Tony Abbott, 28th prime minister of Australia.

Special Episode: The Sun Will Rise — Peter Hartcher interviews Misha Zelinsky

G’day Diplomates fans, Hagar Chemali has joined us to unpack events around the world. 

We talk:

The Israel-Hamas war.

Is peace in the Middle East ever possible?

Why does this issue inflame democratic nations so much?

Mr Xi goes to Washington

Albo in Beijing and Tuvalu

And more!

SHOW NOTES:

Misha Zelinsky’s new book The Sun Will Rise is for sale here: www.thesunwillrisebook.com

Be sure to follow Hagar and the Oh My World! show on social media and YouTube @ohmyworldshow and @hagarchemali

You can follow Misha and diplomates here: @mishazelinsky @diplomatesshow

Please check out Misha Zelinsky’s column in the Australian Financial Review here: https://www.afr.com/by/misha-zelinsky-p5363h

G’day Diplomates fans, Hagar Chemali has joined us to unpack events around the world. 
We talk:
The Israel-Hamas war.
Is peace in the Middle East ever possible?
Why does this issue inflame democratic nations so much?
Mr Xi goes to Washington
Albo in Beijing and Tuvalu
And more!
SHOW NOTES:
Misha Zelinsky’s new book The Sun Will Rise is for sale here: <a href="http://www.thesunwillrisebook.com/" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.thesunwillrisebook.com&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1700013672851000&amp;usg=AOvVaw3DEd5ZJiuxnqJgL7uFYKGD">www.thesunwillrisebook.com</a>
Be sure to follow Hagar and the Oh My World! show on social media and YouTube @ohmyworldshow and @hagarchemali
You can follow Misha and diplomates here: @mishazelinsky @diplomatesshow
Please check out Misha Zelinsky’s column in the Australian Financial Review here: <a href="https://www.afr.com/by/misha-zelinsky-p5363h" data-saferedirecturl="https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.afr.com/by/misha-zelinsky-p5363h&amp;source=gmail&amp;ust=1700013672851000&amp;usg=AOvVaw3qd3DOxtYA3-FWGDOGRDFX">https://www.afr.com/by/misha-zelinsky-p5363h</a>

Ben Rhodes: After The Fall - Democracy, Authoritarianism and America

Diplomates – A Geopolitical Chinwag

Social links

Follow podcast

Recent clips