Speaks to the planet. I'll go by the name of Charlamagne Tha God. And guess what, I can't wait to see y'all at the third annual Black Effect Podcast Festival. That's right, We're coming back to Atlanta, Georgia, Saturday, April twenty six at Poeman Yards and it's hosted by none other than Decisions, Decisions Man, DyB and Weezy. Okay, we got the R and B Money podcast. We're taking Jay Valentine. We got the Woman of All Podcasts with Sarah Jake Roberts. We got Good Mom's Bad Choices. Carrie Champion will be there with her next sports podcast and the Trap Nerds podcast, with more to be announced. And of course it's bigger than podcasts. We're bringing the Black Effect marketplace with black owned businesses plus the food truck court to keep you fed while you visit us. All right, listen, you don't want to miss this. Tap in and grab your tickets now at Black Effect dot Com Flash Podcast Festival.

Speaks to the planet. I'll go by the name of Charlamagne Tha God. And guess what, I can't wait to see y'all at the third annual Black Effect Podcast Festival. That's right, We're coming back to Atlanta, Georgia, Saturday, April twenty six at Poeman Yards and it's hosted by none other than Decisions, Decisions Man, DyB and Weezy. Okay, we got the R and B Money podcast. We're taking Jay Valentine. We got the Woman of All Podcasts with Sarah Jake Roberts. We got Good Mom's Bad Choices. Carrie Champion will be there with her next sports podcast and the Trap Nerds podcast, with more to be announced. And of course it's bigger than podcasts. We're bringing the Black Effect marketplace with black owned businesses plus the food truck court to keep you fed while you visit us. All right, listen, you don't want to miss this. Tap in and grab your tickets now at Black Effect dot Com Flash Podcast Festival.

Take a deep in through your nose.

Take a deep in through your nose.

Holds it.

Holds it.

Now, release slowly again deep in haale hold release, repeating internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I am deeply well I am deeply Well. I am deeply Wow. I'm Debbie Brown, and this is the Deeply Well Podcast. Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative, and ready to expand and higher consciousness and self care. This is where we heal, this is where we transcend. Welcome back to the show. I am Debbie Brown. Today's episode we are going into uncharted territory and I cannot wait. We haven't yet had a chance on this show.

Now, release slowly again deep in haale hold release, repeating internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I am deeply well I am deeply Well. I am deeply Wow. I'm Debbie Brown, and this is the Deeply Well Podcast. Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative, and ready to expand and higher consciousness and self care. This is where we heal, this is where we transcend. Welcome back to the show. I am Debbie Brown. Today's episode we are going into uncharted territory and I cannot wait. We haven't yet had a chance on this show.

To really.

To really.

Explore the question of what does it mean to see the world, what does it mean to experience the world?

Explore the question of what does it mean to see the world, what does it mean to experience the world?

Culturally?

Culturally?

As a species, we are more open, aware and awakened to how vast this planet is and how different it is, and yet so many of us still stay inside of tight constraints, or wrestle with fears about exploration and adventure or giving ourselves access to true freedom. And in this episode we get to explore all of that. Today's special guest is someone that I've been waiting and waiting to have on this show. I got a copy of her book and it is one of my son's favorite things. Ever since I have he is always opening it looking at the picture, where is this? But where in that country is this? Asking questions and it's really brought him to life with so much curiosity. So I am just so excited to have this special guest today. Jessica Nabongo is on the show. Jessica Nabongo is a GLOAE Global Citizen, a master storyteller and travel expert who is the first black woman to have traveled to every country in the world. Named one of the fifty most Notable People in Travel by Travel and Leisure, Jessica uses her platforms to educate and inspire others to experience the world around them and build a global community with an emphasis on bringing untold stories to the world. Her first book, The Catch Me If You Can. One Woman's Journey to Every Country in the World, published by National Geographic, was an instant bestseller. A first generation American, Jessica was born and raised in Detroit by Ugandan parents. She attended Saint John's University in New York, where she earned a degree in English literature, later completing a graduate degree at the London School of Economics. She is also the founder of the lifestyle brand The Catch. When She's not on a plane, she is home tending to her plants into h and La. Welcome to the.

As a species, we are more open, aware and awakened to how vast this planet is and how different it is, and yet so many of us still stay inside of tight constraints, or wrestle with fears about exploration and adventure or giving ourselves access to true freedom. And in this episode we get to explore all of that. Today's special guest is someone that I've been waiting and waiting to have on this show. I got a copy of her book and it is one of my son's favorite things. Ever since I have he is always opening it looking at the picture, where is this? But where in that country is this? Asking questions and it's really brought him to life with so much curiosity. So I am just so excited to have this special guest today. Jessica Nabongo is on the show. Jessica Nabongo is a GLOAE Global Citizen, a master storyteller and travel expert who is the first black woman to have traveled to every country in the world. Named one of the fifty most Notable People in Travel by Travel and Leisure, Jessica uses her platforms to educate and inspire others to experience the world around them and build a global community with an emphasis on bringing untold stories to the world. Her first book, The Catch Me If You Can. One Woman's Journey to Every Country in the World, published by National Geographic, was an instant bestseller. A first generation American, Jessica was born and raised in Detroit by Ugandan parents. She attended Saint John's University in New York, where she earned a degree in English literature, later completing a graduate degree at the London School of Economics. She is also the founder of the lifestyle brand The Catch. When She's not on a plane, she is home tending to her plants into h and La. Welcome to the.

Show, Jessica, No, thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Show, Jessica, No, thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

I am so happy to have you. And I think the first question I need to ask you is how many countries have you been to this month?

I am so happy to have you. And I think the first question I need to ask you is how many countries have you been to this month?

Where have you traveled in this last few weeks? I was in Guyana in South America, and then Trinidad, and I was in Tobago as well, Granada for like ten hours, which was crazy, and Barbados.

Where have you traveled in this last few weeks? I was in Guyana in South America, and then Trinidad, and I was in Tobago as well, Granada for like ten hours, which was crazy, and Barbados.

We are halfway through the month.

We are halfway through the month.

Yeah. I think I've taken ten flights this month so far. Wow.

Yeah. I think I've taken ten flights this month so far. Wow.

And how long has this been your life?

And how long has this been your life?

Oh, that's a good question. I mean, so I've been traveling internationally with my family since I was four, but you know, over seventy flights a year probably like the last fifteen years. Wow, it's been a lot.

Oh, that's a good question. I mean, so I've been traveling internationally with my family since I was four, but you know, over seventy flights a year probably like the last fifteen years. Wow, it's been a lot.

Oh my god, I mean, how special, What a special.

Oh my god, I mean, how special, What a special.

Life, what a rare life?

Life, what a rare life?

Very rare?

Very rare?

Yeah, very rare. I got my email from Delta, which was like the year end wrap up, and I'm in there. One percent of flyers like I fly more than all of their pilots, which is crazy.

Yeah, very rare. I got my email from Delta, which was like the year end wrap up, and I'm in there. One percent of flyers like I fly more than all of their pilots, which is crazy.

Tell me about some of those perks, like what does life look like when you are an Airlines one percent? It's good.

Tell me about some of those perks, like what does life look like when you are an Airlines one percent? It's good.

It's it's funny because just coming down from San Francisco, I had the same flight crew that flew in from Detroit to SF, and so I get on I was like, hey, I know you guys, and they were like, it's you. And so then you know, like when I see like staff that I've seen before, it's so cool because it's pretty rare no matter how much I fly, it's very rare to see the same flight attendant, so it actually feels like family. Yeah. And when I landed in La the delta like VIP woman and she wasn't there for me, but she was outside of the door of the plane and she's like, where have you been? And I was like, oh, we actually I moved And it was just good to see her because it's just these familiar faces that I would see like once a week being at the airport all the time. So it feels good. It's comfortable, you know. We always love being number one on the upgrade list.

It's it's funny because just coming down from San Francisco, I had the same flight crew that flew in from Detroit to SF, and so I get on I was like, hey, I know you guys, and they were like, it's you. And so then you know, like when I see like staff that I've seen before, it's so cool because it's pretty rare no matter how much I fly, it's very rare to see the same flight attendant, so it actually feels like family. Yeah. And when I landed in La the delta like VIP woman and she wasn't there for me, but she was outside of the door of the plane and she's like, where have you been? And I was like, oh, we actually I moved And it was just good to see her because it's just these familiar faces that I would see like once a week being at the airport all the time. So it feels good. It's comfortable, you know. We always love being number one on the upgrade list.

Listen, one thing I wanted some parks sprinkle special right, and.

Listen, one thing I wanted some parks sprinkle special right, and.

Sometimes they give me like little notes, which is very cute. As well.

Sometimes they give me like little notes, which is very cute. As well.

So I remember recently, I forget where I was. I think I was fine in New York. And you know how they have like their commercials like and please do the da da da, And the man in the commercial was my flight attendant. Oh that's so on that flight. So I literally kept looking at the screen and looking at him, looking at the screen, looking at him, like what that's And it felt so special because yeah, as much as you you know, I think, in no way, shape or form, am I as traveled as you, my dear, But you know, I probably pro I fly a few times a month for work, and you know, I always expect to run into people at the airport. I never have. I always expect to see the same flight cuse I've been, you know, traveling for decades and you never do. It is kind of rare, you're those airports are such a it's just such a transient experience. It feels otherworldly sometimes.

So I remember recently, I forget where I was. I think I was fine in New York. And you know how they have like their commercials like and please do the da da da, And the man in the commercial was my flight attendant. Oh that's so on that flight. So I literally kept looking at the screen and looking at him, looking at the screen, looking at him, like what that's And it felt so special because yeah, as much as you you know, I think, in no way, shape or form, am I as traveled as you, my dear, But you know, I probably pro I fly a few times a month for work, and you know, I always expect to run into people at the airport. I never have. I always expect to see the same flight cuse I've been, you know, traveling for decades and you never do. It is kind of rare, you're those airports are such a it's just such a transient experience. It feels otherworldly sometimes.

And it's interesting because this week was quite kismet. I was very exhausted, as you can imagine. I got back from Barbados at like three am Friday morning, and I was on a flight to SF by like four pm on Saturday. So it was a lot, right, and I'm super exhausted. That flight Monday from San Francisco to La ran into my friend Janenna like he was sitting in my row. I was like, how is this happening? The flight attendants, the woman who works for Delta here, And then in the airport I saw another friend, Kid Fury, who many people probably know, and it was just it felt sel kismet. I was like, Okay, I'm supposed to be here, despite the exhaustion and everything. It's like that n that I call it winks from the universe that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be.

And it's interesting because this week was quite kismet. I was very exhausted, as you can imagine. I got back from Barbados at like three am Friday morning, and I was on a flight to SF by like four pm on Saturday. So it was a lot, right, and I'm super exhausted. That flight Monday from San Francisco to La ran into my friend Janenna like he was sitting in my row. I was like, how is this happening? The flight attendants, the woman who works for Delta here, And then in the airport I saw another friend, Kid Fury, who many people probably know, and it was just it felt sel kismet. I was like, Okay, I'm supposed to be here, despite the exhaustion and everything. It's like that n that I call it winks from the universe that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, So when you when you first set out on this journey, right, like when you first approached well, actually, my question would be, how did you decide that you would visit every country in the world? And when did the vision come to you or the call?

Absolutely, So when you when you first set out on this journey, right, like when you first approached well, actually, my question would be, how did you decide that you would visit every country in the world? And when did the vision come to you or the call?

So I you know, I'm a geography nerd. I had traveled a lot, and I always knew I wanted to visit every country in the world. I started my blog to Catch Me if you Can in two thousand and nine, and every year I would do a year and wrap up because I had these little maps like this where I've been mapping, so I would fill in my map and it was so exciting to me to just continue filling in the map. So I thought, Okay, I'll visit every country in the world by the time I'm like forty or fifty. Then in twenty seventeen, I was in Bali. I was trying to find myself. I had quit my last corporate job, like maybe a year and a half before, and I was unsure. I was just kind of like in the wind, just going traveling but with no clear direction. And I remember I was sitting with a friend and I said, I want Oprah to interview me, and she was like, why would Oprah interview you? I was like, I don't know. I'm gonna figure something out. And around that time, there was an American woman who got the Guinness record for doing it the fastest and she made headlines and I was like, people care that people travel like because at that point I had been to sixty countries, which is a lot a lot. Yeah, but I didn't, you know, I didn't really make a thing of it. It was just like, this is a thing that I'm doing. So I found myself in an internet rabbit hole, as one does, and found out about like the country counting community found out that at that time, less than one hundred and fifty people had been to every country in the world. Wow. Yeah, Yeah. The numbers have shot up now, definitely because of social media. And I'm like, I'm am I part of the problem. I don't know, because now you have a lot more people who want to do it. I think now maybe it's around three to four hundred people have done.

So I you know, I'm a geography nerd. I had traveled a lot, and I always knew I wanted to visit every country in the world. I started my blog to Catch Me if you Can in two thousand and nine, and every year I would do a year and wrap up because I had these little maps like this where I've been mapping, so I would fill in my map and it was so exciting to me to just continue filling in the map. So I thought, Okay, I'll visit every country in the world by the time I'm like forty or fifty. Then in twenty seventeen, I was in Bali. I was trying to find myself. I had quit my last corporate job, like maybe a year and a half before, and I was unsure. I was just kind of like in the wind, just going traveling but with no clear direction. And I remember I was sitting with a friend and I said, I want Oprah to interview me, and she was like, why would Oprah interview you? I was like, I don't know. I'm gonna figure something out. And around that time, there was an American woman who got the Guinness record for doing it the fastest and she made headlines and I was like, people care that people travel like because at that point I had been to sixty countries, which is a lot a lot. Yeah, but I didn't, you know, I didn't really make a thing of it. It was just like, this is a thing that I'm doing. So I found myself in an internet rabbit hole, as one does, and found out about like the country counting community found out that at that time, less than one hundred and fifty people had been to every country in the world. Wow. Yeah, Yeah. The numbers have shot up now, definitely because of social media. And I'm like, I'm am I part of the problem. I don't know, because now you have a lot more people who want to do it. I think now maybe it's around three to four hundred people have done.

It, which is I mean, just can we put that in context for a second. There's nine billion people on the planet, right, nine billion?

It, which is I mean, just can we put that in context for a second. There's nine billion people on the planet, right, nine billion?

Like that is that is rare air. Yeah, And people often ask me like did you did you do it? Or did it happen? I'm like no, it takes intention, it takes effort, it takes resilience, it takes focus, it takes a lot. Because the thing is, the Guinness record for visiting every country in the world is like eighteen and a half months, one hundred and ninety three countries they count eighteen and a half months. I did one hundred and thirty five new countries in two and a half years, and that felt very fast to me. Wow. But for me on the journey, I wanted to have cultural experiences in every country. If you do the Guinness Record, you're literally like they're touching down right, they're getting on the plane, going through immigration, and getting back on that same plane. Because there's so many countries in the world that don't have flights every day. So it took real effort and real intention because I was driven by like my curiosity of humanity, and I wanted to see how people lived everywhere in the world. And you know what I came out with is like, we're way more similar than we are different, because we're all just humans. Like, take away race and gender and all of the things, right, accent, nationality, take it all away. We're all just human. We're all made up of the same things. Right. We may look different, but we're all made up of the same exact things. And the other lesson that I learned is that most people are good. We're living in a time where they the big Day want us to distrust our neighbors, they want us to distrust the stranger in the street. But what I've found I've traveled solo to over one hundred countries, is that most people are good. The only reason that I've been able to remain safe in every country. Yes, that includes Afghanistan, North Korea. All of them is because of strangers, people who you know, cared for me when I was in their country, people who wanted to make sure not only that I was able to explore and understand their culture, but also that I remain safe. Those were strangers.

Like that is that is rare air. Yeah, And people often ask me like did you did you do it? Or did it happen? I'm like no, it takes intention, it takes effort, it takes resilience, it takes focus, it takes a lot. Because the thing is, the Guinness record for visiting every country in the world is like eighteen and a half months, one hundred and ninety three countries they count eighteen and a half months. I did one hundred and thirty five new countries in two and a half years, and that felt very fast to me. Wow. But for me on the journey, I wanted to have cultural experiences in every country. If you do the Guinness Record, you're literally like they're touching down right, they're getting on the plane, going through immigration, and getting back on that same plane. Because there's so many countries in the world that don't have flights every day. So it took real effort and real intention because I was driven by like my curiosity of humanity, and I wanted to see how people lived everywhere in the world. And you know what I came out with is like, we're way more similar than we are different, because we're all just humans. Like, take away race and gender and all of the things, right, accent, nationality, take it all away. We're all just human. We're all made up of the same things. Right. We may look different, but we're all made up of the same exact things. And the other lesson that I learned is that most people are good. We're living in a time where they the big Day want us to distrust our neighbors, they want us to distrust the stranger in the street. But what I've found I've traveled solo to over one hundred countries, is that most people are good. The only reason that I've been able to remain safe in every country. Yes, that includes Afghanistan, North Korea. All of them is because of strangers, people who you know, cared for me when I was in their country, people who wanted to make sure not only that I was able to explore and understand their culture, but also that I remain safe. Those were strangers.

So yeah, I have so many questions. I want to pivot to you from here, and I need to apartmental all of them in a list in my brain because when.

So yeah, I have so many questions. I want to pivot to you from here, and I need to apartmental all of them in a list in my brain because when.

I say every people are like, but you've been to Afghanistan, I'm like, it is a country. You've been to North Korea. It's a country.

I say every people are like, but you've been to Afghanistan, I'm like, it is a country. You've been to North Korea. It's a country.

Talk to me about North Korea.

Talk to me about North Korea.

Okay, so North Korea, actually it doesn't feel like what people think it what that's turk Ministan, which is that creepy not creepy, I don't want to say creepy, eerie, eery, ear yer ear. Turk Ministan has that eerie feeling of I'm being watched. Where are all of the people? Why are these wide streets so empty? H turk Ministan felt like that North Korea we have felt relatively normal, and that's what I found the most fascinating, Like there aren't advertisements, which seems like not special in any way, but if you go out of your home, you realize there's adverts everywhere around us, like constantly influenced exactly billboards, and it's a lot of stimuli there. You don't have that. But what I found, like the normal side of things is like you saw couples in the parks holding hands. You saw people taking like wedding pictures in front of national monuments. We went to the grocery store, there was just people there, and we ended up going to a bar one night, and you know, we went to the subway and people are just living their life now. Of course, like only certain people have access to live in Poonang, the capital, but the people living there have pretty what I would consider to be a regular life, like I've seen in every other kindry everywhere.

Okay, so North Korea, actually it doesn't feel like what people think it what that's turk Ministan, which is that creepy not creepy, I don't want to say creepy, eerie, eery, ear yer ear. Turk Ministan has that eerie feeling of I'm being watched. Where are all of the people? Why are these wide streets so empty? H turk Ministan felt like that North Korea we have felt relatively normal, and that's what I found the most fascinating, Like there aren't advertisements, which seems like not special in any way, but if you go out of your home, you realize there's adverts everywhere around us, like constantly influenced exactly billboards, and it's a lot of stimuli there. You don't have that. But what I found, like the normal side of things is like you saw couples in the parks holding hands. You saw people taking like wedding pictures in front of national monuments. We went to the grocery store, there was just people there, and we ended up going to a bar one night, and you know, we went to the subway and people are just living their life now. Of course, like only certain people have access to live in Poonang, the capital, but the people living there have pretty what I would consider to be a regular life, like I've seen in every other kindry everywhere.

I was just kind of speaking freely and having emotions and having experiences. They're just being humans. This is fat, I mean, this is fact. The answer this show. I have riquestions because like a couple of years ago, well many years ago, I just was on a deep dive and I was watching taking in so much information about North Korea.

I was just kind of speaking freely and having emotions and having experiences. They're just being humans. This is fat, I mean, this is fact. The answer this show. I have riquestions because like a couple of years ago, well many years ago, I just was on a deep dive and I was watching taking in so much information about North Korea.

So this is just wow. Yeah, And the thing is I don't do a ton of research before I go places, so like I have a pretty solid level of understanding of most of the world. I went to London School of Economics. I studied international development, so it was like a global political and economic history of the world, so I have some knowledge of every country. But I never did like deep research. I was kind of like I wanted to go in led by curiosity, so I didn't go in to confirm what I thought I knew. I went in to ask questions and to listen and to learn.

So this is just wow. Yeah, And the thing is I don't do a ton of research before I go places, so like I have a pretty solid level of understanding of most of the world. I went to London School of Economics. I studied international development, so it was like a global political and economic history of the world, so I have some knowledge of every country. But I never did like deep research. I was kind of like I wanted to go in led by curiosity, so I didn't go in to confirm what I thought I knew. I went in to ask questions and to listen and to learn.

Yeah, that's super powerful. What a beautiful way to see the world. You know, when you so spiritually speaking and in my stay understanding of consciousness and experiences with we tend to have when we're open to them and life aligns really really powerful. Quantum leaps in two year cycles. So when you're telling me that you saw this many countries in the span of like two and a half years. Spiritually speaking, our four year cycles are really potent, but two year cycles are really where like you try on and begin to embody an entirely different version of who and what you are. Like there is a deep, deep, cellular, emotional, spiritual freedom that comes when you're interacting with it and participating with it in two year cycles. So I'm so curious, you know because obviously I imagine two and a half years seeing that much of the world and being as intentional as you are and as curious and as kind of rooted in the cultural experience, you probably didn't really get to interact with your friends and family too much, so you're kind of isolated inside even though you're in the world. And so, was there a transformation that took place? And if so, like what was that and how did that feel as you were in motion?

Yeah, that's super powerful. What a beautiful way to see the world. You know, when you so spiritually speaking and in my stay understanding of consciousness and experiences with we tend to have when we're open to them and life aligns really really powerful. Quantum leaps in two year cycles. So when you're telling me that you saw this many countries in the span of like two and a half years. Spiritually speaking, our four year cycles are really potent, but two year cycles are really where like you try on and begin to embody an entirely different version of who and what you are. Like there is a deep, deep, cellular, emotional, spiritual freedom that comes when you're interacting with it and participating with it in two year cycles. So I'm so curious, you know because obviously I imagine two and a half years seeing that much of the world and being as intentional as you are and as curious and as kind of rooted in the cultural experience, you probably didn't really get to interact with your friends and family too much, so you're kind of isolated inside even though you're in the world. And so, was there a transformation that took place? And if so, like what was that and how did that feel as you were in motion?

Well, that's interesting because I never thought about it, right, I never thought about that two year block. But if I think about like my thirty third birthday to my thirty fifth birthday, yeah, I was a completely different person. And I think one of the biggest things for me was that I started to live where I was right, So, like that idea of living in the present became really important because when you're in Samoa and like there's a seventeen hour time difference from where most of your friends and family are, I can't live in both places.

Well, that's interesting because I never thought about it, right, I never thought about that two year block. But if I think about like my thirty third birthday to my thirty fifth birthday, yeah, I was a completely different person. And I think one of the biggest things for me was that I started to live where I was right, So, like that idea of living in the present became really important because when you're in Samoa and like there's a seventeen hour time difference from where most of your friends and family are, I can't live in both places.

Yeah, you have to choose.

Yeah, you have to choose.

And I chose to be hyper present everywhere that I was and to your point. It left me a bit isolated, you know, and it's something that I still feel today because it's out of sight, out of mind, right, And I think a lot of people feel that I'm unreachable, but I'm like, I have WhatsApp, you can always reach me. But I think, yeah, Like I think there was a spiritual elevation that took me out of my home connections but put me into connection with the world in a way that very few people that I meet are, even people who've been to every country in the world. I think I've had incredibly different and unique and deep experiences because I was intentional, because I see everyone as human. I don't care if you're black or white, or Asian or whatever. I'm here and I'm looking at you, and I'm like, who are you as a person. I don't care if you're a celebrity. I don't care if you're a homeless person on the street. Like, I'm going to treat everyone with respect because you are a human. And for me, I'm human before i'm anything else. I'm human before i'm a woman. I'm human before i'm black. I'm human before i'm anything else. And that's how I moved through the world.

And I chose to be hyper present everywhere that I was and to your point. It left me a bit isolated, you know, and it's something that I still feel today because it's out of sight, out of mind, right, And I think a lot of people feel that I'm unreachable, but I'm like, I have WhatsApp, you can always reach me. But I think, yeah, Like I think there was a spiritual elevation that took me out of my home connections but put me into connection with the world in a way that very few people that I meet are, even people who've been to every country in the world. I think I've had incredibly different and unique and deep experiences because I was intentional, because I see everyone as human. I don't care if you're black or white, or Asian or whatever. I'm here and I'm looking at you, and I'm like, who are you as a person. I don't care if you're a celebrity. I don't care if you're a homeless person on the street. Like, I'm going to treat everyone with respect because you are a human. And for me, I'm human before i'm anything else. I'm human before i'm a woman. I'm human before i'm black. I'm human before i'm anything else. And that's how I moved through the world.

What did you feel, you know, looking back now, from the age you start in the age you finished, what changed about you?

What did you feel, you know, looking back now, from the age you start in the age you finished, what changed about you?

I mean, you know, I would go back further than the two years because so i'd been so I was in sixty countries by the time twenty seventeen came about, and so I had been traveling a lot. I think one of the big things that changed. I have very little fear of anything. And when you can release fear, the whole the whole world opens up, right, But beyond that, like your soul is at peace. Fear is certainly irrational, but fear terrorizes us, and fear causes us to have high stress levels, and it releases cortizone and all of that. But like, you know, people are like, oh, you weren't afraid when you went to Afghanistan or Iran, And I'm like, no, I'm not afraid of people. So if I'm not afraid of people, what am I afraid of? Am I afraid of the trees?

I mean, you know, I would go back further than the two years because so i'd been so I was in sixty countries by the time twenty seventeen came about, and so I had been traveling a lot. I think one of the big things that changed. I have very little fear of anything. And when you can release fear, the whole the whole world opens up, right, But beyond that, like your soul is at peace. Fear is certainly irrational, but fear terrorizes us, and fear causes us to have high stress levels, and it releases cortizone and all of that. But like, you know, people are like, oh, you weren't afraid when you went to Afghanistan or Iran, And I'm like, no, I'm not afraid of people. So if I'm not afraid of people, what am I afraid of? Am I afraid of the trees?

Like?

Like?

What?

What?

You know?

You know?

Like, of course things can go wrong. But what I've realized recently because I always post my crazy airport travel videos that I know everybody like, I love them, what I realize is that because people are like, no, you have to leave early. What if there's an accident?

Like, of course things can go wrong. But what I've realized recently because I always post my crazy airport travel videos that I know everybody like, I love them, what I realize is that because people are like, no, you have to leave early. What if there's an accident?

What this?

What this?

What if that? I realize I don't plan for the what if. I don't plan expecting for things to go wrong. I always expect everything to go right, and I expect the world to open up for me. If there's traffic, I expect there to just be a lane and there's no cars, and it's just like, oh, me and my uber are gonna go in that lane. That's what I go out expecting. So no, there's not like accidents on my way to the airport. And you know, no, I don't miss bag Drop because I don't expect that to me. So I'm not magnetizing it to me. We are magnets like this. I believe we can. We can draw people to us, we draw energy to us, we draw events to us. And because I'm constantly seeking the good, the positive, the magic, that's what's being drawn to me. So I don't have anxiety when I'm at the airport and you know, Bagdrop closes in three minutes and I just walked in the door, I'm just like, yeah, I got three minutes to get from the door there. That's easy. Breezy. You know, I'm not thinking like, oh what if I trip? But you know I don't think about that, and I think, yeah, like really traveling, traveling solo, traveling solo to you know, so called dangerous countries and surviving it. It's allowed me to release so much fear.

What if that? I realize I don't plan for the what if. I don't plan expecting for things to go wrong. I always expect everything to go right, and I expect the world to open up for me. If there's traffic, I expect there to just be a lane and there's no cars, and it's just like, oh, me and my uber are gonna go in that lane. That's what I go out expecting. So no, there's not like accidents on my way to the airport. And you know, no, I don't miss bag Drop because I don't expect that to me. So I'm not magnetizing it to me. We are magnets like this. I believe we can. We can draw people to us, we draw energy to us, we draw events to us. And because I'm constantly seeking the good, the positive, the magic, that's what's being drawn to me. So I don't have anxiety when I'm at the airport and you know, Bagdrop closes in three minutes and I just walked in the door, I'm just like, yeah, I got three minutes to get from the door there. That's easy. Breezy. You know, I'm not thinking like, oh what if I trip? But you know I don't think about that, and I think, yeah, like really traveling, traveling solo, traveling solo to you know, so called dangerous countries and surviving it. It's allowed me to release so much fear.

Deeply. Well just one of the things I think is so powerful about what you're saying, and I want everyone to track this because when you remove a belief that there's limits on your life, right, when you remove any barriers you have to your personal freedom and autonomy, the natural unfolding that comes from that, it's really a tremendous amount of miraculous energy that surrounds you, tremendous amount of synchronicity and serendipity. And it's like, you know, not only are you not planning for that, The thing is, if that were to happen, something would instantly, a new timeline, a new a new opportunity would instantly come in to greet you, and then you'd be on the aligned path. So it's like, get what I'm hearing and what you're saying is you know the words I'd use for that. It's it's surrendering to alignment in your life. You know, it's like you are in flow with your call and with your movement, and so all of the universe conspires for all of us when we tap into our freedom. When that's the case, when we do believe that, like there's no limits on my life, there's nowhere I need to be afraid. And this is not naevita, right, Like, you know the difference you know when someone is like bypassing or avoiding or having you know, those rose colored glasses on as like you know.

Deeply. Well just one of the things I think is so powerful about what you're saying, and I want everyone to track this because when you remove a belief that there's limits on your life, right, when you remove any barriers you have to your personal freedom and autonomy, the natural unfolding that comes from that, it's really a tremendous amount of miraculous energy that surrounds you, tremendous amount of synchronicity and serendipity. And it's like, you know, not only are you not planning for that, The thing is, if that were to happen, something would instantly, a new timeline, a new a new opportunity would instantly come in to greet you, and then you'd be on the aligned path. So it's like, get what I'm hearing and what you're saying is you know the words I'd use for that. It's it's surrendering to alignment in your life. You know, it's like you are in flow with your call and with your movement, and so all of the universe conspires for all of us when we tap into our freedom. When that's the case, when we do believe that, like there's no limits on my life, there's nowhere I need to be afraid. And this is not naevita, right, Like, you know the difference you know when someone is like bypassing or avoiding or having you know, those rose colored glasses on as like you know.

A way to self avoid.

A way to self avoid.

But then there is that real state of like earned freedom internally that shifts everything about how the world meets you.

But then there is that real state of like earned freedom internally that shifts everything about how the world meets you.

It shifts every thing, and it gives you a lightness, right like I And you know a lot of people are suffering from anxiety. I think a lot of that has kicked up because of our habits with like social media. I'm just overexposure to other people's lives that we do not need. But when it's too much, but when you can release that, it's just I can't even express truly like the lightness of being that it is like people see me, you know, It's I always think about the airport thing because so many people are like, you are giving me a panic attack, and I'm like, wow, I feel nothing, like I'm moving, I'm breathing fine, I'm like I'm chewing like you know what I mean. So it's it's just it's a freedom that I really hope everyone finds.

It shifts every thing, and it gives you a lightness, right like I And you know a lot of people are suffering from anxiety. I think a lot of that has kicked up because of our habits with like social media. I'm just overexposure to other people's lives that we do not need. But when it's too much, but when you can release that, it's just I can't even express truly like the lightness of being that it is like people see me, you know, It's I always think about the airport thing because so many people are like, you are giving me a panic attack, and I'm like, wow, I feel nothing, like I'm moving, I'm breathing fine, I'm like I'm chewing like you know what I mean. So it's it's just it's a freedom that I really hope everyone finds.

Yeah, yeah, I want to talk about you know, one of the things I when I think about the we're friends and when I think about the themes of.

Yeah, yeah, I want to talk about you know, one of the things I when I think about the we're friends and when I think about the themes of.

Our conversations, they tend to really rest. And it was funny because I asked you for some keywords earlier. Our conversations actually rest in these keywords freedom, grief, love, and through traveling the world. My God, the many faceted ways that one can be brought to deeper understanding of all those three things. What is traveling the world taught you about?

Our conversations, they tend to really rest. And it was funny because I asked you for some keywords earlier. Our conversations actually rest in these keywords freedom, grief, love, and through traveling the world. My God, the many faceted ways that one can be brought to deeper understanding of all those three things. What is traveling the world taught you about?

Love? That love exists everywhere that all of us can access.

Love? That love exists everywhere that all of us can access.

Love.

Love.

Love exists in poverty, love exists in wealth, love exists in the middle of nowhere. And love exists everywhere. And we are love like we as humans, you know, these we us, these spiritual beings, having this human experience. We are love manifested in every single place that we show up. We have the opportunity to be love for someone else, and it doesn't have to be someone that you know intimately. We can be love for a stranger. I'm gonna tell a really quick story. I was in DC. I just moved there. This was like twenty fourteen. We were on Eighth Street, so it's twenty fourteen. Remember it wasn't as gentrified as it is now. And there was this homeless woman and me and my friend were walking to his car. And we're walking to the car and the lady's like, hi, you know, she just starts talking to me. So I'm like hello. My friend's like, Jessica getting the car, and she's like, look at you, you Siberian princess. I was like, oh, Siberian, okay, not new be and Siberian okay, cool, cool, take o cool, it's fine, it's fine. So I'm just laughing. I was like, oh my god, thank you so much. That's so sweet. And she was like, get a hug, and so I go and my friend's like, Jessica, get in the car, and so I give her a hug. Because it's one of those things I feel like, particularly in this country, we discard people, right, we discard the homeless, and we act like they're no longer human. So I gave her a hug. I think nothing of it, and I'm like, okay, I have to go, you know, thank you so much. Whatever I get in the car. She didn't ask me for anything. She didn't ask me for money, nothing. So we're in the car. My friend's kind of like, you're nuts, and she knocks on the window and he's like, see she knocks on the window and she's doing emotion. She's telling me to put on my seatbelt. And I think about that moment so much because of how I saw her humanity, she saw my humanity, and we had this little exchange, which means a lot to me because I still remember it. This was, you know, eleven years ago, and maybe it did something for her. She could have been talking to people all week, all month and no acknowledged her. She could have asked other people for hugs and no one hugged her. So it cost me nothing to give her that hug in that moment. Yeah, and that could have just changed everything for her. And so you know, that's such a small instance, but think like we have the power, just through our kindness to show love to every single person that we meet. In the world. Imagine how that can change people's lives. Imagine how it can change the world.

Love exists in poverty, love exists in wealth, love exists in the middle of nowhere. And love exists everywhere. And we are love like we as humans, you know, these we us, these spiritual beings, having this human experience. We are love manifested in every single place that we show up. We have the opportunity to be love for someone else, and it doesn't have to be someone that you know intimately. We can be love for a stranger. I'm gonna tell a really quick story. I was in DC. I just moved there. This was like twenty fourteen. We were on Eighth Street, so it's twenty fourteen. Remember it wasn't as gentrified as it is now. And there was this homeless woman and me and my friend were walking to his car. And we're walking to the car and the lady's like, hi, you know, she just starts talking to me. So I'm like hello. My friend's like, Jessica getting the car, and she's like, look at you, you Siberian princess. I was like, oh, Siberian, okay, not new be and Siberian okay, cool, cool, take o cool, it's fine, it's fine. So I'm just laughing. I was like, oh my god, thank you so much. That's so sweet. And she was like, get a hug, and so I go and my friend's like, Jessica, get in the car, and so I give her a hug. Because it's one of those things I feel like, particularly in this country, we discard people, right, we discard the homeless, and we act like they're no longer human. So I gave her a hug. I think nothing of it, and I'm like, okay, I have to go, you know, thank you so much. Whatever I get in the car. She didn't ask me for anything. She didn't ask me for money, nothing. So we're in the car. My friend's kind of like, you're nuts, and she knocks on the window and he's like, see she knocks on the window and she's doing emotion. She's telling me to put on my seatbelt. And I think about that moment so much because of how I saw her humanity, she saw my humanity, and we had this little exchange, which means a lot to me because I still remember it. This was, you know, eleven years ago, and maybe it did something for her. She could have been talking to people all week, all month and no acknowledged her. She could have asked other people for hugs and no one hugged her. So it cost me nothing to give her that hug in that moment. Yeah, and that could have just changed everything for her. And so you know, that's such a small instance, but think like we have the power, just through our kindness to show love to every single person that we meet. In the world. Imagine how that can change people's lives. Imagine how it can change the world.

Yeah, yeah, ah, And it's like I always think that moments like that are really our tests, you know, those are really God's tests, like do you have the heart you say you have?

Yeah, yeah, ah, And it's like I always think that moments like that are really our tests, you know, those are really God's tests, like do you have the heart you say you have?

You know, are you going to recoil or are you going to extend dignity to another person that has inherent worth and dignity?

You know, are you going to recoil or are you going to extend dignity to another person that has inherent worth and dignity?

Yeah, because I think the biggest like one of the big things I've also learned from travel, I don't believe in hierarchy. I don't care who you are, what you are, degrees, you know, how many followers, fame whatever, Right, We're all just human and we should treat each other that way.

Yeah, because I think the biggest like one of the big things I've also learned from travel, I don't believe in hierarchy. I don't care who you are, what you are, degrees, you know, how many followers, fame whatever, Right, We're all just human and we should treat each other that way.

And it's all fleeting.

And it's all fleeting.

It's all fleeting. And I believe in multiple lifetimes. Oh yeah, and let me tell you you're with the right audience, okay, because I'm like, you don't want to be in that next life, like, ooh, what happened here?

It's all fleeting. And I believe in multiple lifetimes. Oh yeah, and let me tell you you're with the right audience, okay, because I'm like, you don't want to be in that next life, like, ooh, what happened here?

Yeah, So it's like be careful. Karma is and you know, it's so interesting. It's like, you know, karma in the lens of multiple lifetimes, which would be that every lifetime you're working on the unfinished business from the others. But like karma every moment because karma a Sanskrit word, all it actually means is action. Everyone kind of puts it in this feeling of it being like bad, bad karma, Karma's a bee, you know, all these things, but the actual meaning it's just action. It's it's response. It's it could be described as consequence, but it's really in every moment there will be a response to how you behave in what you do, and because of that response, that then is going to be the merit that you get to walk around with or the continued lesson you'll be exploring.

Yeah, So it's like be careful. Karma is and you know, it's so interesting. It's like, you know, karma in the lens of multiple lifetimes, which would be that every lifetime you're working on the unfinished business from the others. But like karma every moment because karma a Sanskrit word, all it actually means is action. Everyone kind of puts it in this feeling of it being like bad, bad karma, Karma's a bee, you know, all these things, but the actual meaning it's just action. It's it's response. It's it could be described as consequence, but it's really in every moment there will be a response to how you behave in what you do, and because of that response, that then is going to be the merit that you get to walk around with or the continued lesson you'll be exploring.

Yeah, it's really interesting because you know, we think about the world is today and so many people putting evil energy into the world and embodying that, and I'm like, why are they still here? But then it's like you have to remember there's another lifetime and they're going to get theirs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gosh.

Yeah, it's really interesting because you know, we think about the world is today and so many people putting evil energy into the world and embodying that, and I'm like, why are they still here? But then it's like you have to remember there's another lifetime and they're going to get theirs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gosh.

It's so hard to settle in, you know, to some of the understanding and higher consciousness that there is no better good. It's like so hard sometimes to kind of settle into the seat of that, especially being alive on earth and see all the things that we see, but everything is experience, and then you will have the opportunity to play out that experience in so many different ways in this lifetime in the next. Well, we're still talking about love. I'm curious, especially for all the travel girlies, how do you date while traveling the world?

It's so hard to settle in, you know, to some of the understanding and higher consciousness that there is no better good. It's like so hard sometimes to kind of settle into the seat of that, especially being alive on earth and see all the things that we see, but everything is experience, and then you will have the opportunity to play out that experience in so many different ways in this lifetime in the next. Well, we're still talking about love. I'm curious, especially for all the travel girlies, how do you date while traveling the world?

Girl?

Girl?

It's so hella, so hard.

It's so hella, so hard.

It's so hard. I think definitely in my twenties I was, you know, more exploratory, if you will, and I'll be honest, part of that like has gone down just because of visibility. Right, So if I'm traveling and I'm working with a hotel, like, I can't really bring someone back with me, you know in a way that perhaps I would like to, And so it's it's definitely hard. I think it's nice because I travel, I have options. I've dated men in many different countries, which has been just interesting because I think for me, like race doesn't matter because again I come from the standpoint of like, we're all just human. I mean, I do have gender preferences, which would be male, but besides that, I don't really care about race because I'm just like, how do I connect with you as a human? So that allows me to be a lot more open. I think the challenge now is that guys look at me and think I'm a flight risk. They're like, where are you? Where were you? Where are you going? And I think like beyond that, you know, people see the so called bigness of my life and they question where they can fit in, and I'm like, none of that actually matters. I'm really simple, like let's read books on the couch together, and you know, I want a very I want something quite simple, and I think a lot of people don't believe that. I remember I was on a date with this guy I'd been saying for a little bit, and he was like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I was like a housewife and he was like what you know, because a lot of people think I'm super ambitious and like I want to do all of these things, and I'm like, no, my success is like a product of me being single quite frankly, which I mean, on the one hand, like I wouldn't have gone to every country in the world right if I had a partner, I would imagine it would have like stifled me in ways. But I'm like, okay, I'm done with that. As my men bring me, my man. So yeah, it can be challenging. I won't lie it's And then also men think that I have boyfriends all over the world, and I'm like, where are they? You know, the phone is dry where they at? I don't believe that.

It's so hard. I think definitely in my twenties I was, you know, more exploratory, if you will, and I'll be honest, part of that like has gone down just because of visibility. Right, So if I'm traveling and I'm working with a hotel, like, I can't really bring someone back with me, you know in a way that perhaps I would like to, And so it's it's definitely hard. I think it's nice because I travel, I have options. I've dated men in many different countries, which has been just interesting because I think for me, like race doesn't matter because again I come from the standpoint of like, we're all just human. I mean, I do have gender preferences, which would be male, but besides that, I don't really care about race because I'm just like, how do I connect with you as a human? So that allows me to be a lot more open. I think the challenge now is that guys look at me and think I'm a flight risk. They're like, where are you? Where were you? Where are you going? And I think like beyond that, you know, people see the so called bigness of my life and they question where they can fit in, and I'm like, none of that actually matters. I'm really simple, like let's read books on the couch together, and you know, I want a very I want something quite simple, and I think a lot of people don't believe that. I remember I was on a date with this guy I'd been saying for a little bit, and he was like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I was like a housewife and he was like what you know, because a lot of people think I'm super ambitious and like I want to do all of these things, and I'm like, no, my success is like a product of me being single quite frankly, which I mean, on the one hand, like I wouldn't have gone to every country in the world right if I had a partner, I would imagine it would have like stifled me in ways. But I'm like, okay, I'm done with that. As my men bring me, my man. So yeah, it can be challenging. I won't lie it's And then also men think that I have boyfriends all over the world, and I'm like, where are they? You know, the phone is dry where they at? I don't believe that.

But we can say that for the podcast, but no, we have but that even that is so, you know, because I think we have to, especially as women that have a certain rareness for whatever reasons. Right, I'm not saying this in a hierarchical way, but you think different, you move different, you know, life unfolds differently for you. And so I find that women who have rare lives, right, who are meant to kind of teach with their life or all of their life is their life's work, which I see in you, which I find for myself. You know, love unfolds so much differently because we have a lot of like research years and a lot of observation and curiosity years that I like to call being in practice with love, right, because you are meant and this is how your life is unfolded to experience so much in this limited time that we're alive. So that more than likely means in every facet, right, not just every country. But you're getting a real understanding of humanity in love and the masculine of men in love, and not just men from the standpoint of like got a man, but like the male species, like really understanding the way they love, the way they think, the way they move through about cultures. So it's really fascinating. So it makes sense that you might have years that you are in more practice and observation. You know, what would you say, as a woman that has seen so much and done so much, what would your type be?

But we can say that for the podcast, but no, we have but that even that is so, you know, because I think we have to, especially as women that have a certain rareness for whatever reasons. Right, I'm not saying this in a hierarchical way, but you think different, you move different, you know, life unfolds differently for you. And so I find that women who have rare lives, right, who are meant to kind of teach with their life or all of their life is their life's work, which I see in you, which I find for myself. You know, love unfolds so much differently because we have a lot of like research years and a lot of observation and curiosity years that I like to call being in practice with love, right, because you are meant and this is how your life is unfolded to experience so much in this limited time that we're alive. So that more than likely means in every facet, right, not just every country. But you're getting a real understanding of humanity in love and the masculine of men in love, and not just men from the standpoint of like got a man, but like the male species, like really understanding the way they love, the way they think, the way they move through about cultures. So it's really fascinating. So it makes sense that you might have years that you are in more practice and observation. You know, what would you say, as a woman that has seen so much and done so much, what would your type be?

Oh, that's interesting. I mean I don't I don't think there's a specific type. I think there's characteristics. Yes, someone curious, someone who's curious about the world, intellectually curious, someone with hobbies, someone who's kind, respectful, thoughtful, loving, romantic, fun funny. Yeah, I think you know, I think thoughtful is the thing that I keep coming back to, Like, thoughtfulness is such a skill. It doesn't actually require much, but it requires intention And I want to be with someone who is so intentional about loving me, you know, who can like cut through the noise, ignore the noise and just like focus on me and you, right, Like I really just want someone to do the rest of this life with and someone who you know comes in with a lightness, right, Like, you can't come in with a heaviness and bring that into my life. I'm like, I like, I feel like I live a very light life and I want to continue that with someone that I can love.

Oh, that's interesting. I mean I don't I don't think there's a specific type. I think there's characteristics. Yes, someone curious, someone who's curious about the world, intellectually curious, someone with hobbies, someone who's kind, respectful, thoughtful, loving, romantic, fun funny. Yeah, I think you know, I think thoughtful is the thing that I keep coming back to, Like, thoughtfulness is such a skill. It doesn't actually require much, but it requires intention And I want to be with someone who is so intentional about loving me, you know, who can like cut through the noise, ignore the noise and just like focus on me and you, right, Like I really just want someone to do the rest of this life with and someone who you know comes in with a lightness, right, Like, you can't come in with a heaviness and bring that into my life. I'm like, I like, I feel like I live a very light life and I want to continue that with someone that I can love.

M Yeah, I love that. I love that. I think like the older I get and the more I understand about myself, my list is so much shorter, but it is deeper.

M Yeah, I love that. I love that. I think like the older I get and the more I understand about myself, my list is so much shorter, but it is deeper.

It's deeper. Yeah. It used to be like yn't be taller than six foot, he has to make this much, right But yeah.

It's deeper. Yeah. It used to be like yn't be taller than six foot, he has to make this much, right But yeah.

And now I'm like, does he live with honor? Does he have integrity? Does he have values? Does has he wrestled with God and made peace with God? Like that's the number one thing on my list right now, Like have you earned your relationship with God?

And now I'm like, does he live with honor? Does he have integrity? Does he have values? Does has he wrestled with God and made peace with God? Like that's the number one thing on my list right now, Like have you earned your relationship with God?

You know? Have you.

You know? Have you.

Gone at it with God to fall in love with God again?

Gone at it with God to fall in love with God again?

You know?

You know?

Because I think that's so much in my life and I need someone that understands the world and the divine with the same kind of reverence and the same depth of connection, you know. And I'm like, I can make almost anything else, Almost anything else could work for me in some way. It'll make sense. Yeah, but like if those things are missing, it's impossible. Yeah, it's impossible.

Because I think that's so much in my life and I need someone that understands the world and the divine with the same kind of reverence and the same depth of connection, you know. And I'm like, I can make almost anything else, Almost anything else could work for me in some way. It'll make sense. Yeah, but like if those things are missing, it's impossible. Yeah, it's impossible.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What does the word grief mean to you? And how does it occupy space in your life? We are in a time a really understanding grief and grieving. I think grief is like a big part of my life's work, and it's a lot of the focus of my book Living in Wisdom April twenty second. But just about that dance, because all of life is dancing between grief and joy, all of it every second.

What does the word grief mean to you? And how does it occupy space in your life? We are in a time a really understanding grief and grieving. I think grief is like a big part of my life's work, and it's a lot of the focus of my book Living in Wisdom April twenty second. But just about that dance, because all of life is dancing between grief and joy, all of it every second.

Yeah, I feel like my real relationship with grief started only in twenty twenty two, which is interesting because my father was murdered in two thousand and three, two days after my nineteenth birthday. And I, you know, through therapy, through reading, through so many things, through just like analysis of self, what I realized is it was two days after my nineteenth birthday. I never thought of myself as a child at that point, but now I realize I was, and there was a fundamental shift in my personality and that's when I became sort of who I am today, the person that's very resilient. Because I have two older sisters, they were emotional wrecks like useless. My mother was in Ugunda at the time because her mother had a stroke, and I had to call her and tell her that my father had been murdered. The man, the only man she's ever dated and love had been murdered. And you know, she ended up coming back. Seventeen days later her mother died, but now she was in Detroit, right, Oh my god. And I was the one doing everything. I was planning the funeral, I was booking the flights, I was doing all the logistics because something in me shut off the emotional part of me and turned on like problem solving. And I remained that way until twenty twenty two. March thirtieth, twenty twenty two, my very dear friend A. J. Crimson died and he drowned on vacation in Bonair, and that cracked me open, Oh my god, in a way that I never could have imagined. And so I'd never dealt with the grief of my father. And now I've been dealing with the grief of my father for several years, but like post you know, it was like over. It was almost twenty years before I started dealing with it, and now I'm sitting in it constantly and what I find is that my relationship with grief is that I want to help other people when they're grieving. I have another friend whose father passed suddenly December twenty twenty two, and I just I showed up for her in a way that I wish somebody would have for me. And so now I feel like I have the tools that I can hand to other people when they're dealing with their grief, you know, and help people acknowledge it and help people sit with it. Right, we have to sit with grief, and grief is a human emotion that we will all feel, but we don't experience it in community, and we need to. We need to give space to each other, even if like a very good friend of mine, Wes, I remember when I was dealing with AJ's death, he would just sit on the phone with me and I would just cry. And that meant so much. You know, it's a simple act, but a lot of people we run like I have a friend who lost to a child like two days before her due date, and I remember running away because I was just like, oh, this is too much. I don't know what to do, and I did nothing. She needed friendship, and I ran away because I was like, oh, this is too heavy. So we have to get past ourselves to be able to be in community with other people when they're in grief, and so, you know, it feels heavy sometimes. But also to be able to grieve means that you've loved, And the harder you grieve, the more deeply you loved. And I think that's such a beautiful thing.

Yeah, I feel like my real relationship with grief started only in twenty twenty two, which is interesting because my father was murdered in two thousand and three, two days after my nineteenth birthday. And I, you know, through therapy, through reading, through so many things, through just like analysis of self, what I realized is it was two days after my nineteenth birthday. I never thought of myself as a child at that point, but now I realize I was, and there was a fundamental shift in my personality and that's when I became sort of who I am today, the person that's very resilient. Because I have two older sisters, they were emotional wrecks like useless. My mother was in Ugunda at the time because her mother had a stroke, and I had to call her and tell her that my father had been murdered. The man, the only man she's ever dated and love had been murdered. And you know, she ended up coming back. Seventeen days later her mother died, but now she was in Detroit, right, Oh my god. And I was the one doing everything. I was planning the funeral, I was booking the flights, I was doing all the logistics because something in me shut off the emotional part of me and turned on like problem solving. And I remained that way until twenty twenty two. March thirtieth, twenty twenty two, my very dear friend A. J. Crimson died and he drowned on vacation in Bonair, and that cracked me open, Oh my god, in a way that I never could have imagined. And so I'd never dealt with the grief of my father. And now I've been dealing with the grief of my father for several years, but like post you know, it was like over. It was almost twenty years before I started dealing with it, and now I'm sitting in it constantly and what I find is that my relationship with grief is that I want to help other people when they're grieving. I have another friend whose father passed suddenly December twenty twenty two, and I just I showed up for her in a way that I wish somebody would have for me. And so now I feel like I have the tools that I can hand to other people when they're dealing with their grief, you know, and help people acknowledge it and help people sit with it. Right, we have to sit with grief, and grief is a human emotion that we will all feel, but we don't experience it in community, and we need to. We need to give space to each other, even if like a very good friend of mine, Wes, I remember when I was dealing with AJ's death, he would just sit on the phone with me and I would just cry. And that meant so much. You know, it's a simple act, but a lot of people we run like I have a friend who lost to a child like two days before her due date, and I remember running away because I was just like, oh, this is too much. I don't know what to do, and I did nothing. She needed friendship, and I ran away because I was like, oh, this is too heavy. So we have to get past ourselves to be able to be in community with other people when they're in grief, and so, you know, it feels heavy sometimes. But also to be able to grieve means that you've loved, And the harder you grieve, the more deeply you loved. And I think that's such a beautiful thing.

Yeah, deeply. Well, what are some ways that people can grieve better or help another in grief?

Yeah, deeply. Well, what are some ways that people can grieve better or help another in grief?

I think that is a big struggle.

I think that is a big struggle.

For so many people one, you know, just we never know where anyone is at emotionally right and what they're suppressing. And you know, sometimes I think for so many of us, when hard experiences come, we can be surprised at quote unquote who isn't there for us?

For so many people one, you know, just we never know where anyone is at emotionally right and what they're suppressing. And you know, sometimes I think for so many of us, when hard experiences come, we can be surprised at quote unquote who isn't there for us?

Right?

Right?

But everyone has process, you know, and everyone has their limits. And so for anybody listening, what is a way to really show up in grief for someone else?

But everyone has process, you know, and everyone has their limits. And so for anybody listening, what is a way to really show up in grief for someone else?

Yeah, I think listening. Listening is so under Stop trying to fix people's problems. Yeah, say that, just listen. If you're in the same city, offer to go to their house, offer to have them over to your house, because sometimes people just need to get out of their space yea, And I think checking in consistently even if they're not responding, like reminding people that you're there. I've got a lot of friends recently going through things who just shut down, shut people out, and I'm just like, just know, I'm always here, Like I don't know what everybody else is doing, but I'm always here to listen. You can always come to my house, you know, if you need me, I'm going to always be able to get on a plane and show up. But I think primarily it's listening. The other thing that I recommend, Anderson Cooper has an incredible podcast about grief that he made after his mother died. Incredible, like for me, life changing because that idea of you're not alone, like he just he captures it so well through his interviews and the studies and the research he does. But I highly recommend that podcast. I've shared it with so many people. But yeah, listening to that podcast, but listening to your friends and just creating safe spaces. I feel like those words are overused, but it's so real. Creating a space where someone knows they can pick up the phone, they can come over, and they can just go on and on and on and on and on and you're not trying to fix it.

Yeah, I think listening. Listening is so under Stop trying to fix people's problems. Yeah, say that, just listen. If you're in the same city, offer to go to their house, offer to have them over to your house, because sometimes people just need to get out of their space yea, And I think checking in consistently even if they're not responding, like reminding people that you're there. I've got a lot of friends recently going through things who just shut down, shut people out, and I'm just like, just know, I'm always here, Like I don't know what everybody else is doing, but I'm always here to listen. You can always come to my house, you know, if you need me, I'm going to always be able to get on a plane and show up. But I think primarily it's listening. The other thing that I recommend, Anderson Cooper has an incredible podcast about grief that he made after his mother died. Incredible, like for me, life changing because that idea of you're not alone, like he just he captures it so well through his interviews and the studies and the research he does. But I highly recommend that podcast. I've shared it with so many people. But yeah, listening to that podcast, but listening to your friends and just creating safe spaces. I feel like those words are overused, but it's so real. Creating a space where someone knows they can pick up the phone, they can come over, and they can just go on and on and on and on and on and you're not trying to fix it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's such like a sacredness to us growing our capacity to bear witness, you know, like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's such like a sacredness to us growing our capacity to bear witness, you know, like.

Life actually requires so little of us, Like the things we think are solutions most likely or not, it's our own stuff. But it takes like real presence and courage and capacity to bear witness to another while doing nothing else but holding the space and looking with intention and being present.

Life actually requires so little of us, Like the things we think are solutions most likely or not, it's our own stuff. But it takes like real presence and courage and capacity to bear witness to another while doing nothing else but holding the space and looking with intention and being present.

And not being on your phone and not being like not showing distraction but fully being present.

And not being on your phone and not being like not showing distraction but fully being present.

Yeah. Yeah, with your schedule and.

Yeah. Yeah, with your schedule and.

With your.

With your.

You know, adventure and exploration. How do you make time or space for grief in your life?

You know, adventure and exploration. How do you make time or space for grief in your life?

Now?

Now?

The thing is, grief comes and it will take the space, you know, so and I honor it. If I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm sobbing, I honor that and I lean in and I might play a sad song, you know, just to like help it get out and move through me.