M from grandmothers who whispered in their baby girl in two fathers on dimly lit street corners, instructing young soldiers to always keep their eyes open. You be queen, you were fired. You will pass through centuries on the hands of your daughters. They called you wisdom. Proverbs on the backs of diamond eyed school children who growing into hymnals recited by amethyst holding urban philosophers who recited neighborhood commandments out of the windows of restored alchimedo chariots. To keep the warmth of their blood. Be wise, be smart, being black, Opal Brown courts bloodstone and prayer. Be every form of jim se King told, scribe, scribe, told son, son, told wife, wife told her daughter, and daughter told the as this is. And the ancestors told me that you would come to give wisdom. Thousands. They said you would come dropping Dropping the Gym. Hey, welcome back the Dropping Gem's podcast. I'm Debbie Brown. This is my show. This is a safe space and a sacred container where I love to explore higher consciousness but for real life, and I like to make it as applicable as possible to your day to day life and use um but also for many of the things that interests me. So this is a show for those that enjoy the logical, irrational, the esoteric, the ethereal, and also for those that are ready to do some of the deeper work. So thank you for your bravery, thank you for your courage, thank you for your ears, thank you for your listening, and thank you for your time and being with me on this show. I want to say a big thank you to everybody that has reached out. Which should be a happy birthday. I celebrated my birthday recently and it was so beautiful I think I actually need to do a whole show about it. I decided to turn my birthday into a healing retreat in my backyard, and um, you know, my birthday kind of coincided along with Los Angeles opening back up, and I know a lot of the world opening back up, and I think so many of us are really trying to figure out how do I want to occupy space? What do I want to do in this new normal now that we've all kind of been given the freedom and some of the opportunity to perhaps restructure our lives and restructure our friend groups and restructure how much we want to give of ourselves. So I had a really beautiful evening. Um Actually, now, on the second thought, I think it will definitely turn this into an entire episode, so stay tuned for that. But one of the one of the beautiful people that was at my party is actually my guest today, so I'm gonna get into that in justice second. First, because I always forget to do this and I don't know why I don't talk about this more, but I wanted to make sure that for those that are interested in meditating with me, I lead meditations Monday through Friday on the Choper app, so you can join me there. It's in the iOS store. I think we'll be live on android phones very soon, like very very soon. But all you do is search Chopra c h O p R A and it's such a gorgeous app. It of course is based on the life's practice of Deepak Chopra and it's by Choper Global and um On. There you can find meditations from Deepak and you can find the beautiful new twenty one day meditation series we launched at the company with Deepak and Alicia Keys, which is so incredible, and then you can get daily meditation with me and the daily meditations that I lead really run the game. It from all kinds of healing work that we can do, building spiritual confidence, unlocking your heist, purpose and vision for your life. Um also just relaxing, and there's also meditations for anxiety and for sleep. There's meditations for children that I've done on there. So if any of that sounds yummy and feels like it resonates, then download app show Rapp and you can find me on their real easy. Okay, today's show, let's do it. I am so excited to share this utterly epic human being with you. Saw is one of the most phenomenal friendships that I have made in the pandemic, and I'm never letting him go. So Sadi Simone is the guest today. I know there are so many listening that absolutely adore his incredible, powerful work. And the really fun and beautiful way is that he shares all of his depth on his Instagram, on his tiktop, on a TikTok, within his community spiritually Sassy, or through his books. Sadi Simone is a spiritual guide, a meditation teacher, and international transformational speaker, A best selling author and creator of This Saw method who has dedicated his life to helping others to live in alignment and achieve their highest potential. He is pioneering a spiritually, sassy, heart based healing movement rooted in science backed, tried and true techniques, and which joy and authenticity illuminate the path to enlightenment. His infectious enthusiasm for healing is grounded in a masterful and revolutionary synthesis of ancient Tantrik Buddhism, modern contemplative psychotherapy, meditation, breath work, and integrative nutrition, all delivered in his own radiant, approachable and playful style. His teachings have helped enriched the lives of millions of people and inspire a new generation of change bankers. Deepak Chopra has called Saw a radical spiritual guide in ninety and connections among his generation. Saw has worked with Google, MoMA, habbas Una Seth, and American Express, among others, and it's a tech speaker. He's been featured on BuzzFeed, Vice, USA, Today, We're Friending twenty nine, just to name a few. In his first book, Five Minute Daily Meditations, was called a year and personal retreat of daily meditations by Sharon Salzburg and His second book, Spiritually Sassy, Eight Radical Steps to Activate You're in eight Superpowers, is out now. Check out his membership platform Spiritually Sassy School will dive into this in a bit, and his top rated podcast, The Spiritually Sassy Show, and finds on Instagram and TikTok at Saudi Simone, here's my dear friend, one of my favorite humans that has ever lived. Welcome to the show, saw Welcome to the show. One of my favorite favorite human beings that have ever existed in this lifetime, favorite souls that has ever existed in all the realms, My dear friend, Sadi Simone. Oh ship, Hi, my queen, my diary. I'm so honored to be here. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank God for you. And the feeling is mutual. Thank you. I love you, I love you, and I want to start the show there. I love you. I think you are such a powerful spiritual teacher and just such a kind soul um. And I think a piece of you like you are so powerful in so many ways. And I think the way that you share yourself with your audiences, you like in your full power, which gives this humongous, gorgeous permission to anyone that connects with your work to dive deeper and to really see themselves. And something I love is that you are that power. But you also have like such a tenderness and thoughtfulness about you, like you are so deeply connected. Um, I think to the people in your lives in a way that feels really special. So I just want to start with that is so sweet. Thank you, babe, thank you, thank you, thank you. Uh. Years in the making, you know, years in the making. It wasn't always um. Someone said to me, sigh, you are are so effortless. But my response to that, it's taken. It's taken a lot of effort to be effortless, you know, and just remembering that that it does take a like being present is effortless when we are present, right, but when we are so um, discombabulated, untrained, scattered, crunchy, wobbly, it takes a lot of effort to become present. And like, all that's good that I have to offer, all that's wise that I have to offer, all that's benevolent, uh, and beneficially that I have to offer only comes from like deep presence, you know. So it does take a lot of effort, you know, getting up in the morning, cuddling with the boyfriend for a minute, and then sitting down to meditate, doing the breath during the prayers, and then getting the fitness on, drinking water, doing all the things to be able to show up, you know, with deep presence, like with the mind that's relaxed, with the body that's energized, with the heart that's open um. So thank you for that reflection that the work is working. You know I do the work is working. So I like to start all my shows with kind of talking about how I found myself connected to such glorious spirits. And I love our story because we kind of came together um a little bit in the Chopper universe, like both kind of you have spoken so gorgeously on Chopper stages at retreats. We were both at the top of the pandemic kind of sharing um our hearts with the audiences on like lives on Chopra. And one day, like I had been seeing you and I had just been like loving loving you from Afar, and then we were on a zoom call together where it was keep going and we were like all on these zoom screens and I was staring at you and you were staring at me, and then you sent me like a little chat in the screen and I just like started dying. What did you say when you chatted me? I say, oh my god, you're like I'm melting looking at you. Were giving like icon vibes something like that, and I was like, you dropped that gorgeous and and in that very moment, We're like, honey, I was just thinking the same like I was thinking literally the same thing watching you right now. And then after that it was a wrap like it turned immediately into an iconic um afternoons spent in Venice and many many, many, many many more moments like that. Um. So it's been such a joy. But that's something I love about us because I think that we are able to be the fullness of who we are in front of people and greet each other with that much enthusiasm. Um. And that's something that that I think is a really beautiful gift about deep, authentic friendships. Yeah, Babe, I gotta say, Honey, I've been quietly watching you and just obsessing over like if I liked women, I like the seed, Honey. I want you to be like the mother of my children. Honey. It's brave for me to come back. I guess your next lifetime. It's like that you are, I mean, and the love is shared when I when I talk talk about you too, like my mother and my family, everyone's like, yeah, Debby Brown is the fucking ship. She's the monic legendary. And that one time when I was at your house and I faced time my mom. Yes, yeah, then you guys and your mom got to request my son. Yeah. I mean you you baby, You're it. You know you're it, and I mean it every every with every every, every part of it. It's like you to be able to be a mother, a teacher, a guide and and still show up with so much you know, brightness and and and ease and we laugh so much, you know, and I'm a good honey, like yes, yeah, thank you, thank you know. Earlier this year, um, you released your second book, Spiritually Sassy, Eight Radical Steps to Activate your Innate Superpowers. And I love like you're you're very much at the forefront of this new spiritual world that's really being unearthed and and coming in a way that is truly democratized and available to all. And I really want to speak to you know something that I really connect within your work. And I had a chance to be on your incredible podcast, The Spiritually Sassy Show, and I still get d m s about that every day. Um. But you know something we talked to on that is you're such an incredible blend. I think of deep ancient knowledge, like you have a very specific path that you've walked in honor to your lineage, the Buddhist lineage, and I think, but you're also so radically present moment connected to now in the deep understanding of really the complex layers of humanity. I think we're just stepping into that moment within this spiritual world. You know, spirituality is on trend. It has come to the forefront um. For many of us, it's what literally saved our lives. And then I think for others it is this kind of um fun dabbling. Maybe you know, spirituality is really having its moment in the sun. And I think it gets a little dangerous in that way, because I do think a lot of people are reading one book and then saying I'm a teacher or I'm a spiritual teacher. And and I'm not taking away from the fact that they may be on the path, but like the deep spiritual work isn't about the marketable offerings, right, It isn't about um self grandizing, and I think that's something that we all on this path kind of struggle with. It's like, yeah, I know I need to position myself in a way that people can get this transformative work. But I also don't love the performance aspect of it or the instagrammable way it's done. UM. But I think that the space that you occupy, I really think you're the intersection of these two worlds meeting. And so it's been really incredible to watch. I think we occupy a very interesting space, especially as we are both really rooted in lineage UM and not just in positivity or in like let's feel better. It's like, okay, well let's get let's get to the deep fibers of God. You know, I think that's kind of how we create a recipe to experience that UM. And so so I think I'm getting around to say, UM, you know, I just want to know how are you in this moment experiencing your personal relationship with your spiritual journey. UM. I do think that that's something that always even volves for us on this path as we let go and take on and also I'm really curious, how are you experiencing this current movement of spirituality as someone who is definitely connecting powerfully to gen Z and millennial millennial audiences, but someone that is also like ancient. I love this. And you know, there's a story about about the Buddha that there's a story that I want to share that there was a woman, um a young woman, washing clothes on a rooftop and he was giving one of his first uh sermons. You know, he's giving one of his first teachings and the woman had never practiced, had no spiritual context in this lifetime that she was aware of. She heard the words, she heard a few words, and the very moment she unlocked everything that was locked inside of her. She became free and completely liberated with just a few words. So I do believe. And the reason why I'm talented stories because going back to the thing where where it is very harmful and very very profoundly dangerous, because spirituality is cool now and it is trendy, and it is the the sexy hot new topic like breaking generational curses is that hot things? Yo? God, you know what I mean. It's like, there's really do you know what that takes. So we're looking at something. The reason why I tell that stories because you know, my prayer and my wishes that perhaps the people can read one book, and they can go to one meditation retreat, and they could sit one time. And my prayer is that there's their their conditions, the cosmic condition are so are so ready that it ripes into complete liberation. They could read one book, they could sit for one meditation, they could listen to one teaching and all of a sudden, is all of it just unlocked completely. So I'm having for but it just I'm saying this, so I hope that that's the case, right, that their karma is their karma is so right that it would just takes one time for full full unlocking. It hasn't been the case for me, right, I had to go through so much ship to be you know, so far from enlightened and have a degree of wisdom that I can educate and inspire other people. Right, um, And and it's also important to say that I never planned of being a spiritual teacher. It was it was kind of the thing where I went into spirituality. And you and I shared about this a lot before and you've talked spoke about this earlier on. It's we enter into spirituality either out of privilege, because we have all of our basic needs are taking care of, so we have the money, we have the house, we have, all the things are working. And then it's like what else is there? And then you start to be curious about the matters of the heart. You start to be curious about the unseen world. You start to be curious about about the gods and goddess, angelic beings. Thetis Darren protectors that because that keens all the Buddhies. Start to be curious about the things that you know. You can't see what the eyes in your face, but you experience them. So privilege opens with dark for that. And now there's a whole other side of it which is out of despair, out of desperation, which which was my case, um, in your case too, we were we were in this position in our lives that we're desperate, uh, feeling completely inadequate, deficient, broken. The The overarching thing for me was just feeling like I was an innately bad person and having that shame monster kind of like guiding orient in my mind, my words and my actions. Um, it was very heavy. So the the sense that I was innately a bad person, then you ended up creating the self fulfilling prophecy for yourself that you are then you know, creating every single potential circumstances to validate that feeling that you are innately bad. So then you're it becomes it becomes a psycho of misery. Right, So going going back, I mean, you've said so many different things that I just want to sort of like unpack a little bit. So I think, um, I think, um, when when? And then to go back to like another point that you said, like where am I at with like my spiritual currently my relationship to my spiritual practice, And um, I go through phases when I become staggering into my practice right where like I the routine of the spiritual work, I enter to what we call like sacred boredom, and then I'm like, okay, sacred boardoms here, all right, And then I aggate back for a little while. You know, I navigate sacred boarding for a little because what happens is when you read your life, when you eradicate your life, when you delete all the knots that are perpetuating toxicity perpetuating gossiping, perpetuating lives, perpetuating um harm. You know, when you when you do a great job at weeding the garden of your of your mind, therefore the garden of your entire our life, of all the things that perpetuate harm um, you reach a point. And there's many layers of this, right, so I'm speaking like into a degree that I've experienced. You reach a point of sacred boredom. And then you and then you ask the teacher or the guru in my case, for more instructions so you can go deeper, so you can actually taste the nectar of the sacred boardom, so you can actually learn something from that space. And then you open to a whole other level of of all the other ways that you're creating harm for yourself, and you're creating harm into the world unintentionally, right we we we we like to think, uh with Buddhist psychology that we're not uh intentionally causing harm. That it's based on this like amnesia, this like forgetfulness that we um that we're that we forgot who we are, We forgot you know, forgetting who who the truth of who we are, and forgetting how to relate to the world causes so much suffering, right, So I just wanted to sort of go around and kind of paint a picture about you know, are Matt. So I did get staggered, and I did reach a point of the sacred BOARDOM and then I got a new set of instructures and I'm on it now. It will take me six years to complete these new set of instructions. Um, just continue to deepen, continue to deepen, and continue to to you know, and these practices, what they're doing is they're they're just showing you your mind. They're showing you the blind spots. They're helping you to like get to know the parts of you that you're still closed off, the parts of you that you're not willing to look at. Um. So that's that's kind of it. Does that make sense? I mean does it? Yeah? It makes beautiful sense. I want it somewhere. I want to sit with you, saw and I think I know it's so resonant for me, and I know it's so resonant for people listening. Um. You know, when we talked about that initial entry point to spirituality, that feeling of what I've experienced as a profound against nous of self that you don't even know how to begin to dissolve and unravel. You know, I think that feeling. I would just like to talk about how it felt potentially for you, for us to even get to the point where we were willing to dive into that shadow self. But then also I think the part that's not spoken to enough. Is it really hard? Hell? Yes? But what makes it simpler is that pretty soon you start to find this common thread, this common theme that can either be one the karmic patterning that you're meant to see and understand so you know what your mission on Earth is so that you can begin to transcend it, or two to just notice how often you lie to yourself about yourself and don't know where those lies started. And I think you know what what keeps so many from this path is the level of the judgment for self and the fear of people finding out blank supersedes the desire to feel better, because if you've never felt it, you don't really even fully believe that it's possible or what that feeling could be, Like, Oh my god, this is so good. Can I jump in please? I created a piece of content um that I just said, no one's coming to punish you. No one is coming to punish you. And I just repeated that over and over and over and over again. And the RiPP boy fact that he had was was wild. And I think because this the sense, this feeling that we are inadequate, that we're broken, that we are innately bad and undeserving, unloving. We have the sense of someone's coming to find out this this secret about us, this this deficiency about us, and they're here to out us and show the world look at this person. They're so deficient, they're so bad, they're so inadequate, they're so unloving. But the truth is we are the ones that are in this constant, perpetual, you know, state of self punishment. You know, one of the first times that the Lai Lemma came to the United States to speak, he says, you guys have uh and not every every time I speak about my teachers, and every time I share a story on the podcast anywhere, you're always gonna hear through assassi filter. Right, So are always gonna be paraphrasing in a way that I that I I can understand the way that my audience and my students can understand, Right, so that I love us Like, yo, you guys hate yourself so much here in the West. What's up with the self hatred? Because in the in the East and in that part of the world, Um, they're they're mental poisons show up in different ways, right, we do share the same you know, mental poisons all all sent to all human beings, um, But for us in the West, shows up with this like sense of like complete, this desperate need to punish ourselves. And one thing that liberated me was understanding the true meaning of the word forgiveness, just to release the desire to punish. So if you're saying I forgive myself, you're saying I release the desire to punish myself. And at that point you didn't thinking that someone's gonna come to punish you, you know. And then it goes to the next degree. That's that that that another piece of content that I created. It was like, there's nothing wrong with you. There is nothing wrong with you. There is nothing wrong with you. And I'm not speaking to your circumstances. I'm not speaking to your condition. Yes, there's a lot wrong, there's a lot that's potentially wrong there. But the problem is that we feel that there's something innately wrong with us at a core level, and that is just the lie. That is just a faulty lie that's been permeated in to the collective, and we have believed. And when we believe that there's something innately wrong with us at the core of our being, then that breeds shame and hate and harm and this function and this harmony UM, and then we create more of that for ourselves. Right. So the the initial the the initial jump into the path is looking at that. It's looking at how do we relate to ourselves? Is looking at like, who do I think I am at the core of my being? Have I recognized my basic goodness? Have I touched basic goodness? Have I experienced the basic goodness at the base of my being? And unless you have glimpse at that, then you're never capital in. And I have to say, you will never see the benevolence of the goodness out of the world, and you're never going to see the benevolencent goodness in anyone else. That's just how it is. Period. We can do a great job about pretending um, but at the point that pretending culture of good vibes only a positive only of like this is a pretending, a culture of pretending. It's not a it's not a culture of enlightenment, you know, which is what we're what we're We're here trying to get people to restand. Yes, your circumstances are sucked up. Yes, your your conditioning is is struggling and so traumatic, and yes you've lived a life of so much pain and harm. But none of that has has has changed the essence of who you are. None of that has touched the core of we are, none of it. And we also have to remember that like a dark cloud can't hurt the sky. And once we once we recognize that, that's then we have this spacious awareness. Then we have the the openness two glimpse of how vast our inner world is and how powerful what we call in the in the literatures our buddh and nature is, you know, our true our true nature is how how how miraculous and untouched it is, it's unfazed. And our work is to you know, two, the layer, you know, to peel away the layers of conditioning, and then to uncover more of that. And the seed is there, right, the seed is never is never torn. But it is our job to develop it. You know, it is our job to take care of our inner worlds, like we have to become master botanists, you know, we have to become master gardeners of our inner world, Like we have to every single day go into the garden of our mind and weed out seeds of suffering, seeds of despair, seeds of depression, seeds of anxiety, seeds of addiction. And what are the seeds of love, compassion, wisdom and joy? Um I spoke about this today. Actually, you can't meditate once a week and expect things to change. You can't eat one health in me and expect things to change. You can't exercise once once in a whine and expect things to change. Like but you do a great job at brushing your teeth every day, in your hair every day, putting on a whole look every day, giving a full face to the outside world. But you're you're allowing only what you see, you know, eyes with eyes in your face to dictate the quality of your life. But you're your your your misinterpreting, and you're forgetting that what you can't see, what the eyes in your face, you're inner world really is what dictates the quality of your life period. So there's a lot, there's a lot there that we could that we could talk about. But I think understanding how to relate to our basic goodness is very vital. And I see so much in the world of Instagram well, and it's instag in spirutuality, people saying this person's toxic. Have these boundaries protect yourself, and these people are this thing and those people are that thing. It's like, this is this limited approach, you know, it's it's keeping us separate, it's keeping us in dualism, it's keeping us in this binary approach. It's keeping us um in every patch of state of pain. You know, like that does that make sense? Yes? Are you really asking that that make sense? You know? I'm so I've just been I've just been so trained with my teachers to always ask every every time you feel like you finished something, to always say, are recommunicating? Does that make sense? Are real landing? Are re arriving somewhere? Because there's so much and I see so often, So it's it's part partially me asking that. It's just my conditioning um, because when we're speaking in large audiences and we ask people what is meditation? Oh, it's it's I meditate what I'm painting. Okay, so you've never meditated before? Then? Oh what is compassion? Oh, it's it's it's that you know, it's that love that I have for my children. Oh so you have never experienced compassion. So it's the reason why I'm always saying, does that make sense? Very communicator arriving, because it's we have such mismisguided meanings for a very profound, simple topics that I'm always like, girl, we arrive somewhere, Honey, are we Lendy? Are we there yet? You know that? No? And I'm so grateful for that because I think what's so important too with this work it is checking in and not assuming that people understand what we're talking about, and not just as teachers, but even in the conversations we have with our families, right, because everyone's lens of hearing or receiving a message is always peppered with life experience. It's always you know, I could use I could use the word love, and for someone else that could have been a word that was weaponized and brings up a completely different feeling or understanding. Right. So no, I'm grateful for that. But I think really when when you ask me that question, I was also like, I just ate a feast. I need a second. That was such a glorious feast. Saw, it was such a glorious feast, truly, and I think, you know it really it really hits, it really hits the nail on the head. I think of how I'd at least really hope and desire for people to begin to explore themselves. You know, Um, I think for us, and this is something that we speak to. And this is not at all a judgment of anybody that's led to do anything, because everything is in divine time and in divine order, and so you know, I think there's still lots of purpose. Everything is getting young, right, so there is like the pieces we resonate with and the pieces that we don't. No industry alive is devoid of that. No, no personal family structure, um, but something we do speak to it It is that I you know, I worry because I think that I think people I think there is some weaponizing of spirituality that in fact is spiritual narcissism and spiritual bypassing. And I think a lot of people are performatively regurgitating information they've heard the embodiment stage is so important. Everyone has to experience it. Now that may not be in alignment with how quickly you'd like to make money in this space, or how quickly you'd like to prepare you know, potentially some coursework or some you know, different offerings. Yeah, because you're also messing with your karma. You're also really messing with your karma if you were entering other people's minds and heart spaces and are not fully equipped to do so, and there's no shame in it, and it's okay it comes. But you have to embody your own healing to even understand how the healing works so that you can extend it to others. You know, And even healing has been so like appropriated, like that word. It's like, you know, healing isn't just saying like, yes, I've healed that, or you know, yeah, I'm in forgiveness like healing that. Truly, if we're gonna go there, let's go deep for a second. When I heal some of my greatest trauma, I have restructured my cells. I have redesigned myself energetically, physically, biologically, as well as in the ethers, as well as as it relates to my karma and my course curriculum as a soul that is not attached to a body. But then I've also healed the body, and so that doesn't happen after reading one book. Potentially it could listen there are you know, there are a few, but you know, one and seven billion potentially, But you know, and so I think that is part of the grace that we extend to ourselves to knowing that every layer that we're able to access in ourselves through our practice, there's also opportunity to deepen it. I've revisited healing recently around certain ages that I thought I was fully integrated with because I started working on it ten years ago and I was for the versions of myself that I've been thus are this new DEVI It requires something else. So there was little small refinements that came on that same lesson. There were new interpretations based on who I am now that further inform who I'm able to be in the world and how I'm able to teach. And so you know, it's just at least the way that I'm experiencing. Um. I think we kind of started this beautiful piece really an understanding that the grandest barrier to our own healing is our own against us, of ourselves. But then it's it's still even as you're healing, knowing that there is always opportunity to deepen it. There is all like the amount of layers that we can come through on the same subject are endless, they're bountiful um, and so surrendering to that as part of the journey is where the gift is. But if we're so consumed with our ego identification, with how together we are, how healed we are, even how much spiritual knowledge we have, if you could be practicing this work for fifty years and there's still more places for you to go with it, there's still more to be learned, there's still new opportunities to transform even the smallest pieces, because if there weren't, you would not be occupying space on Earth right now. If there's tension in the mind, and if there's tension in the body, there's work to do, you know, just like use that as your guiding force, as your orientention. You know, if there is any sort of tension and the minder and a body, there's work to be done, There's liberation to be had, there's revelations to be experienced, you know, So think about it like that, and and and when there's tension, there's attachment. When there's attachment, there's a version. When there's a version, there's ignorance. So you're looking at the poisons, right, Attachment, a version, and ignorance the root cause of all of our suffering. Um So, what we're looking at the at the sort of like trifecta of poison. The way for you to realize if you still have ignorance inside of you, you have attachment inside of youth used to have a version inside of you. And I know attachment is in in the in the psychological the modern psychological space. It's used as sometimes as a healthy thing. I have a healthy attachment. But according to the Buddha, who I believe is one of the first psychologists psychoanalysts, um attachment is this insatiable thirst. You know, it's just like insatiable craving, this desperate need to change our experiences, this um this sense of this satisfaction. It's always pervasive. You know, if there is that there's work to be done, you know, um so e gauging the assension and my attention about it, then there's still ignorance, there's still attachment, there's still a version. Um. So just when you're thinking about attachment, you want to use the word that the Buddha use. We're looking at this like pervasive sense gratification. We are we're misinterpreting a sugar rush for genuine happiness. So we have to just keep thinking about it like that. Um. I have so much attachment, that's so much a versions, so much ignorous to go. And what I do have now is it's a quick way back into the center. That's what I have. It's I I don't dwell in either extremes attachment meaning I need this cake and I need to eat the entire cake, or a version get this person away from me. They're just so cause of my measure pushed that person far, far far away from me. I don't go into those extremes for too long. That's what I have now. You know, it's sometimes it's a couple of hours, sometimes it's thirty minutes. Sometimes it's literally one breath and I'm back in my center. Um. And you know, there's there was maybe a couple of years that I spent with suicide of depression, still deep in my practice, you going into ashrooms and monasteries and seeing the groups and practicing, practicing, practicing become I became like a ceaseless prayer, you know. And that's how he sort of like erupted the next stage of my evolution. That's how I've really found my center. But I did spend a couple of years, uh, profoundly dark years where suicidal thoughts were like every third thought was like, there's no point, just just do it, just go and planning and that kind of I'm thinking. But now it's not there anymore. Even when those thoughts do visit way, even when there is, um something really traumatic happening in our in my in my inner world, in my external world, I have the ability to find my center. Yeah that okay, hold on, we sit in here, because that is hold that thought, we are coming right back. H That is so beyond powerful and I think so resonant for so many What does that I'd be grateful for any deeper insights saw into how you held space for yourself in that way while navigating truly um, you know, some of the darkest emotions that are available to us in human form, but also still being active in your present, like those are in your practice. Excuse me, those are such opposite ends of the spectrum or maybe not, you know, so, just any any thoughts on the way that you experienced a container that complex. There's a lot of there's there's a lot of layers, right, So I'm gonna try to just kind of like go piece by peace and maybe I'll cover, you know, ground enough that people are gonna be like, oh, ship, that's juicy, I can use that. Um First, when you're experiencing suicidal ideation, you have to recognize it's not your whole self that wants to die. It's a part of you that's ready to die. The problem is we're holding on to an identity. We're holding onto a past version of ourselves, and we can't hold onto the past. You know, leaves fall off the tree, and the tree is not reaching down trying to hold onto the leaves they're falling. That's what we're doing. You know. That causes so much pain. We're not moving with the transient nature of life. We're not moving with the changing nature of all of life. That causes a lot of imbalance in the mind and the body. Right, So, suicidal ideation, at its core, it's it's you. It's it's it's actually a revelatory, liberatory process because you're recognize, you're in full recognition that some part of you is ready to die. So it's it's being anointed by death, which is opens you up to to realize how holy and how miraculous and how grand and powerful you really are. So we have that as a context foundation, right, then we have to use the power of self something of of of of comforting ourselves, of becoming our own best friend. So one thing a mantra that I use is I make peace with this feeling. I make peace with this feeling. And um, it's worked wonders for me. It's literally been like a magic pill. And I there's there's Usually you will never hear me say there's a magic pill, because there's like a multiplicity of of of of things that have to come to into synergy, into congruency in order for unlocking to happen. But the simple set of words and make peace with this feeling opens the door for for that feeling to die, for that feeling to move, for something else to come up. Right, you, when you're saying and make peace with this to your your you're putting your finger on the pole. So everyone who I love and everyone who I don't love will be born, will die, and we'll be reborn again. Right, this this sort of cycle of life, death and rebirth. When you were saying, I make peace with the ceiling, you're you're you're coming in close contact, you're intimately experience the transient nature of all of life. Right because you're saying, Okay, thank you, you came. You taught me a lesson. I've learned the less of integrated the lesson. I'll thank you very much. Be well now, so I make this with that with this feeling opens the door for that. And I usually put like right hand over my chest, left hand over my belly, or both hands over my heart whatever, you know, sometimes it's in my throat and the back wherever you are experiencing this intense sensation, this feeling, go there, and then the next stage is to is to do your best effort to start to this mental the feelings the emotions from the stories, like drop the story right, be with the feeling. Drop the story, be with the feeling. And I believe I learned this from premature drunk uh pamma is an impectable Buddhist teacher. Um, I believe I learned that from her. I'm not sure exactly. This is very big in Buddhist psychology to dismantle, right, because in Buddhist psychology, what some of the literature says that feelings arise first, and then thoughts claim the meaning of that feeling, and then we speak or we and we act. Right. So, one thing that I heard a story about the Buddha that one of the things that he noticed when he became fully in line, he said he could see thoughts before they manifest. How wonderful would that be, you know, to be able to see a motherfucker turn in the corner before it hits you, You know what I mean? I like that? So thinking about it like that, you know? So this mentally feelings from thoughts, right, because the feeling, that sensation in the body. Um, oftentimes we have a hard wired story associated to that. Even years after I had to transformed my mind and liberated myself from suicide of ideation, when I had that buzzing, yucky anxiety in my belly, there was still a few times that the initial store will be oak side of thoughts. Oh that this feeling is this, this narrative. This feeling is situated with this story. So what I want you to do is I want you to um relearn how to breathe in such a way like and I say relearn is go instead of breathing twelve to sixteen times per minute, which is the ordinarily anxious, depressed breath, which is very covicular, very short and shallow breath, and entered to the healing breath, which is four to six times per minutes, which is the very deep abdominal belly breath. Right. Relearn how to breathe so much so that when an intense feeling arises, you have enough what we say is equanimity, right psychological stability to be with the feeling and not get taken by the stories associated with it. And the only way for you to create the container, your inner working stage and your inner container for you to be able to do that is accessing a healing breath. That's how I seem to work um So, and then I mean, so we're looking at being anointed by death. We're looking at um making making peace with it, with the feeling I make peace with the feeling that we're looking at dismantling feelings with the narrative. Um. These are some of the ways that have really helped me to to this mantle, UM, how I relate to challenging feelings. And this is the way that I started to to change how I relate to um to the idea that certain feelings are o kay to have in certain feelings are not you know, these are good feelings, are bad feelings. And then I entered to this next stage of my evolution where like all feelings are welcome. It's really it's really what I make out of it, you know. And then we recognize that we it's because of our condition, because of our past pain and and and all of our karma where hatching certain meaning to certain experiences, right. Um. And it's very interesting when you study trauma and you work with with Polly trauma survivors. Right, some people have had the most horrific experiences, and these motherfuckers are thriving. Someone might say that that one thing that that happened to them is a hundred it's a fifty weight or a hundredweight. And for that person who's had to Polly trauma, multiple traumas happened to them, you know, So it's all relative. What I'm speaking to. It's like, it's really like the meaning that you give is based on the depth of your liberation, you know, So thinking about it like that, um, and I know it's kind of black and white, and I don't like to give black and white teachers, but sometimes you really have to sort of like enter to that space and be like, Okay, I'm associating negative, destructive, harmful meaning to every single circumstance in my life, to every single feeling, to every single thought, to every single thing. And I'm and you're telling everybody else in yourself that you're doing the work. I'm gonna challenge you and say, Babe, if you're associating these harmful meanings to every single thing in your internal, internal life and external life as bad, harmful, destructive, then you gotta pivot your inner life. Your inner work needs a change. And what I always tell people is like, focus on the simplicity, focus on repetitive of simple practice. You know, repetition of simplicity leads celeberation. Coming back to that, right, coming back to that, Repetition of simplicity leads celeberation. So if I'm if any of these things that I offer you today, they land, do them consistently for a few years. Don't try to go to another podcast, to another book, to another this sort of it's stop approaching healing through a consumeristic, capitalistic approach. Like you know, when I used to work in fashion, I used to like literally go every season, good at the whole closet, and I have to go and get a whole new thing, and get a whole new season, get a whole new war drop and get a whole new You know, there's no I couldn't work with the same tools in every single season. But in the spiritual work, we have to recognize that there is a set of simple practices that work for us in every season and certain seasons. The way these simple practices will work for you will give you more. They will open you up to deeper and deeper seats of awakening because those seasons are lighter um and there's more blossoming, there's a bigger harvest. Some seasons are darker and more intense and more challenging, and there's not as much blossoming. That doesn't mean that these simple practice are is not working. It just means you gotta ride the way. You know, nothing blooms all year but the simplicity of the practice what I need people to recognize it. If there's anything that I teach, they that lands for people. Focus on simplicity. And it may be like, SA, what are who are you saying that? When you are when you study Vidrayana, which is such a complex, mystical you know, a tradition that's so much richer, there's so so many you know, bells and whistles and so many layers to it. Yeah. I didn't start there. I didn't start there, you know what I mean. I started with zen, I I moved. I started with just the breath, just the concentration technique, just you know, it's the simplicity to then build, then you build. That's that's that's really I think thinking about the container to liberation in very dark seasons, very challenging seasons. Um, simplicity, but consistency. Stop being consistent to your pain narrative. Be consistent to uncovering your truth. You know. Um, I think we see so much in the world today and I applaud it. I think it's brave that people are using there, are approaching their pain narratives and their mental health issues. UM. From a brave perspective, what is what? What do I mean by that that they're speaking about? It's a very brave. And then there is there the spiritual point that has to come into the picture. There is the stop over the identifying with your depression, stop over the identifying with your addiction, stop over the identifying with your anxiety. Yes, a part of me is experiencing depression, A part of me is anxious, part of me is addictive. But that part of you isn't the whole of you are. And I always remember that. I always remember that, right, you know, like it's it's a part of me. It's not the whole of who I am like that like that. Mm hmm, wow, I love you. I love you, thank you, thank you, thank you. That was mm hmm. Girl, you let me speak, honey, she goes off, she goes off on me over here. It was just so masterful, so masterful, so beautiful what you shared, so tan dorble. I feel that everything that you just said could be smell, tasted, scene, felt um, And I think I'm just kind of I can't help myself. My body just responds by closing my eyes. You guys can't hear me listening, but I had my eyes closed for like ten minutes, um. But that's how I connect and I hear God and it just you know, so I think that I think everything you just stared shared perfectly expressed. Why you are who you are, why you are where you are, and how necessary, how beautifully necessary your mind, your heart, your work, art to this world. Thank you if I love it, thank you, thank you, thank you. Can I share a little something please that we didn't get to talk about when you mentioned the book. Spiritually Sassy was born out of a desperate need to show that the spiritual path, that the path of liberation, doesn't need to be rooted on zombies in this forced seriousness. You know, someone makes a beautiful joke and you're like mm hmm. Someone plays beautiful music, and you just kind of move, you know, like very lightly. You don't really enjoy the beach. You don't allow your body to be moved by it. Someone speaks beautiful poetry into the world, and you don't really allow yourself to be moved. And you think that dressing in that way and speaking in the in in in a certain way, and and looking spiritual and speaking spiritual and eating spiritual, and and you know, you're you're utilizing this this um, this facade um which I call zombie sin, which I was for a wife. You saw me in India a few years ago, girl, I was that, you know, wearing all white, with the all the mala beads, with all the crystals, you know, bare feet, like the whole thing. I was giving the whole Lookie Bevy Brown would walk by and I could, I wouldn't give her a compliment. I would just be like, mm hmm. But now I see that being like, bitch, you're fucking legend, iconic, delicious, You're seducing the gods, you're changing the paradigm, you're literally giving life to the world. I will never stop myself from from offering poetry, from offering compliment in that way, you know. But I was. I was so caught up in what I had believed a spiritual seeker should look like, should sound like. And because that's what I that's what I was like normalized in the space. Right look a look this way, speak that way, eat this way. Just fit the mold of the zombies in and there's nothing wrong with that. Um. And if you're looking for something else, if you're looking for a home, that you haven't found out there before. Maybe spiritual Sassy's for you, you know, um and and so that's kind of like the dismantling that this zombies then is. You know, the more zombies than you are, the more spiritually liberated you are. I'm on the other side saying, the bigger your smile is, you know, the more your presence radiates joy, the more you emanate creativity and curiosity and beauty, the more liberated you are. Um. So, But and then there's this, you know, there's a little bit of a great area, like a muddy area with this. People think that it's about then looking great. Yes, look great, give a fantasy, you know, put on a fantasy to the world that's beautiful. But but make sure that you're inner world matches that make sure that you're inner world is incongruency with what you're putting out into the world. So spiritually Sassy is about, you know, feeling great, looking great, and most importantly doing great. Like understanding that the whole purpose of the path is to become more altruistic, you know, is to really understand that happiness is not in what I shared earlier, in the in the sense gratifications happiness is not about pleasing our sense about seeing nice things here nice things, tasting nice things, um, smelling nice things, feeling nice things, thinking that. It's not about that. It's not about quenching the thirst of our senses. Right, happiness about serving others. Genuine happiness only arise at the base of your being in service to others. Period. People don't want to hear that. They want to hear that the they want to hear other things. But when you're studying the ancient scriptures um, especially in my lineage, right in Buddhism, you you come to you come to a halt, to come to a corner where you do enough inner work. You you transform your mind enough, you energize your body enough, you open your heart enough, and then you you reach this point that the only way for you to take your your transformation to the next degreeing for you to really experience this blissful nature that we are. It's only in serving others. It's only in sharing with others what you've learned. Being in service to other you find the missing pieces to your healing. It's the missing piece to your puzzle, to your healing puzzle that you haven't be having be able to find anywhere you will find God in service. You find that peace and service. So don't don't hold back. You know, I say to people all the time, if you're running over on on your street walking to reach get to Debby's meditation class, um, you know, or to get to Debbie's talk, I guarantee that that won't be happy that you didn't stop to give a blessing to the homeless person on the street. You know, she would rather you stop and be twenty minutes later her class because you said I'm late, Because I was. I was. I was the alloping my altruistic tendencies. I was developing my saintliness. And then show up to the class, and then you may miss, you may miss half of the class. But I guarantee that whatever you heard, it will it will be. You would actually be listening through the sound of love. You would actually be seen through the eyes of love. So it's just a different kind of it's just a different kind of depth of liberation, right. Um uh, there is a level of selfishness that we have to demand our happiness, we have to demand our liberation. We have to demand our liberation. So that means you do have to take time to be in alignment right, and then the next stage is all about service. And people ask me about what is what is what does it mean to being balanced? And I say, balance means that you have mastered how to take care of others. Why I'm taking care of yourself. So this beautiful events of serving others and serving yourself right, and that is where genuine happiness, uh will fully blossom. And then you're gonna look at the garden you of your mind and like, holy funk, look at all these beautiful, amazing fruit trees that I get to sit around and eat all day. Now. So that's the work, right, that's the work. Um. So like that? Oh like that? Oh yeah, no big deal, no big deal, just a roadmap to your higher consciousness and your complete and total return to wholeness. No, biggie, I love you, thank you. Oh my god, that was exquisite. And I think you know you're just someone who you have such a God given commanding presence and such a way of being. Um yeah, I just see God all in and through you when I look at you, when I'm able to feast upon you and I'm able to be blessed by your words and your existence. Thank you so much for that depth of knowledge and just the way that you so beauty beutifully make it glimpsible, tasteable. I think for everyone on their road, on their journey, wherever they find themselves, like you are such a such a powerful presence on earth. Oh my god, girls, stop it, Oh my god. Part of the journey is receiving, right, Well, don't turn yourself off from receiving. It's an energetic exchange. You give so much, and you are deserving of all the beautiful words that exist in all the books. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. You're such an epic being. Sa. I love you endlessly. Two. I know that you have a packed schedule, but I know there will be a part two, and I want to tease everybody giving you a little taste tease um that I will be doing a masterclass with Saw and his incredible spiritually sassy community. Um. Depending on when you hear this episode, I'm not sure how close to her if it's past, but uh, stay tuned. I would say to saws Instagram, to saws website, you have an incredible community that people can join that is doing big work. I felt really blessed to be a guest on your podcast that was connected with your community. I've been receiving so much love from your tribe from that episode that has felt really special. So I want everyone to know. Spiritually, Sassy School, that is how you can connect deeply with Saw in his work. And there is such a gorgeous structure and being able to get his work, be supported within it, and really just this expansive opportunity to return home and to be inside of the deepest part of you that you possibly can. So Spiritually Sassy School is how you can tangibly connect to Saw and his work. It is a gorgeous membership platform. And you can also enjoy him and savor him on his Instagram Satti Simone and on his epic multimillion follower TikTok page Sadi Simone, where he is literally moving his body for the gods, oh ship. It's so delicious, And I just want to reflect something to you. Your presence changes the psychological temperature of every room that you're in, and that is a profound gift that you offer everybody anytime in your presence. It really like it relaxes every tension that I may be having, Every kno is untied, is undone like you offer that and and presence with your presence and also with the tone of your voice. It's just like, holy fucking ship. You betch your look, honey, your full fantasy. You're little the the full fantasy. So I love you so much. I receive, I receive wide open for all of that. Thank you for seeing Misa. Thank you, my friend. Thank you for being with me in this life. We both embodied here at the same time. What a gift to know each other truly. Oh my god, I love you. Thank you so much everyone for listening, and remember to connect your basic goodness. Remember that whatever thoughts, fins, emotion, sensation, circumstansor experiencing, they do not dictate who you are at the base of your being period. I love you. I love you everyone. Thank you for listening. Join us next week not mus stay hey, find me on social let's connect at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram, or go to my website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, please please please don't forget to Rape, review and subscribe and send this episode to a friend. Dropping Jams is the production of I Heart Radio and Black Effect Network. It's produced by Triple and Me Debbie Brown. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.