Take a deep breath in through your nose.

Take a deep breath in through your nose.

Holds it.

Holds it.

Now, release slowly again deep in, helle hold release, repeating internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I am deeply well. I am deeply well. I am deeply wow. I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast. Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative, and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care. This is where we heal, this is where we transcend. Welcome back to Deeply Well. This podcast we are deeply exploring pathways to inner peace, connection and healing. And I am so excited. As always, I'm your host, Debbie Brown, and today I am just absolutely honored to be joined by a true force in the world of psychology, healing and spiritual restoration. Today's guest is the renowned doctor Tama Bryant, a New York Times best selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher and minister. Doctor Tama Bryant, a New York Times best selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher, and minister. Doctor Tama made history in twenty twenty three as the youngest female president of the American Psychological Association. She has now just released her newest book, Matters of the Heart, Healing your relationship with yourself and those you love, through Penguin Random House. Matters of the Heart combines the wisdom of science, spirituality, and real life experiences to help readers tend to their emotional wellbeing and build meaningful connections. Doctor Tama provides evidence based practices, essential relationship skills, and strategies to address common relational struggles. She is on a mission to help individuals reclaim their sense of self and well being in the face of trauma and oppressive systems. She completed her doctorate in clinical psychology at Duke University, followed by postdoctoral training at Harvard Medical Center's Victims of Violence Program. Now a tenured professor at Pepperdine University, she focuses her research and clinical practice on interpersonal trauma and the societal impact of oppression. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here, doctor Tama.

Now, release slowly again deep in, helle hold release, repeating internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I am deeply well. I am deeply well. I am deeply wow. I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast. Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative, and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care. This is where we heal, this is where we transcend. Welcome back to Deeply Well. This podcast we are deeply exploring pathways to inner peace, connection and healing. And I am so excited. As always, I'm your host, Debbie Brown, and today I am just absolutely honored to be joined by a true force in the world of psychology, healing and spiritual restoration. Today's guest is the renowned doctor Tama Bryant, a New York Times best selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher and minister. Doctor Tama Bryant, a New York Times best selling author, clinical psychologist, teacher, and minister. Doctor Tama made history in twenty twenty three as the youngest female president of the American Psychological Association. She has now just released her newest book, Matters of the Heart, Healing your relationship with yourself and those you love, through Penguin Random House. Matters of the Heart combines the wisdom of science, spirituality, and real life experiences to help readers tend to their emotional wellbeing and build meaningful connections. Doctor Tama provides evidence based practices, essential relationship skills, and strategies to address common relational struggles. She is on a mission to help individuals reclaim their sense of self and well being in the face of trauma and oppressive systems. She completed her doctorate in clinical psychology at Duke University, followed by postdoctoral training at Harvard Medical Center's Victims of Violence Program. Now a tenured professor at Pepperdine University, she focuses her research and clinical practice on interpersonal trauma and the societal impact of oppression. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here, doctor Tama.

Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be in this soft place to land with you.

Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be in this soft place to land with you.

Begin Yeah, oh my gosh. I mean, first and foremost, I just want to reflect deep gratitude to you for the work that you do. The way your work has moved in the world, I think really came so far ahead of what we are now maybe beginning to think is commonplace casual understanding of how our pathts affect us, and how childhood especially affect us, and how trauma affects us. And I think for so many people, mental health and faith has been such a disjointed body. Right, there's this idea that trauma belongs over here. Faith and church and God and ministry belong here, family belongs here, personal responsibility belongs here, and everything. You know, there were all of these pieces I think that people were really screaming for help in and it. It isn't until recently that it's really understood how holistic it all is, and how it really is a true blend of everything all at once and we have to approach it that way. But that has been your call and your work. How did you begin to really in all the processes, see those connections and put all of those puzzle pieces together.

Begin Yeah, oh my gosh. I mean, first and foremost, I just want to reflect deep gratitude to you for the work that you do. The way your work has moved in the world, I think really came so far ahead of what we are now maybe beginning to think is commonplace casual understanding of how our pathts affect us, and how childhood especially affect us, and how trauma affects us. And I think for so many people, mental health and faith has been such a disjointed body. Right, there's this idea that trauma belongs over here. Faith and church and God and ministry belong here, family belongs here, personal responsibility belongs here, and everything. You know, there were all of these pieces I think that people were really screaming for help in and it. It isn't until recently that it's really understood how holistic it all is, and how it really is a true blend of everything all at once and we have to approach it that way. But that has been your call and your work. How did you begin to really in all the processes, see those connections and put all of those puzzle pieces together.

Yeah, thank you for that. I would say it is at the roots afrocentric. So in afrocentric psychology, afrocentric philosophy, there is not a false dichotomy it's not like are you spiritual or secular? Are you creative or intellectual? It's all one. And so I grew up with that as a foundation that it wasn't like are you going to be focused in school or are you going to pray? Like that question would never be asked. It was to be the fullness of who you are. And so and at the roots, psychology used to incorporate more at spirituality. Psychology actually means study of the soul, and so the founders of the field were often people of faith. But then there was a detour as we try to prove ourselves to be scientific. So in order to be worthy of being a science, we had to discard all the things we could not easily prove. And so there has been a reclamation of return to not only reclaiming spirituality, but also reclaiming the body. Yeah, I mean the body so important.

Yeah, thank you for that. I would say it is at the roots afrocentric. So in afrocentric psychology, afrocentric philosophy, there is not a false dichotomy it's not like are you spiritual or secular? Are you creative or intellectual? It's all one. And so I grew up with that as a foundation that it wasn't like are you going to be focused in school or are you going to pray? Like that question would never be asked. It was to be the fullness of who you are. And so and at the roots, psychology used to incorporate more at spirituality. Psychology actually means study of the soul, and so the founders of the field were often people of faith. But then there was a detour as we try to prove ourselves to be scientific. So in order to be worthy of being a science, we had to discard all the things we could not easily prove. And so there has been a reclamation of return to not only reclaiming spirituality, but also reclaiming the body. Yeah, I mean the body so important.

And it's so interesting the way just to be alive right now, I think that's a loaded statement because it is interesting for many reasons, but especially I think in it does feel like a time where we do if you're awake and aware for it, get to come home to yourself, yes, and understand that the human experience is all of those facets. You know, whenever we've spoken to mind, body, and soul. I think for so many years, it's still not understood that is actually what your human experience is. You are having the experience of your mind, of your body, of your soul, and our work is to integrate.

And it's so interesting the way just to be alive right now, I think that's a loaded statement because it is interesting for many reasons, but especially I think in it does feel like a time where we do if you're awake and aware for it, get to come home to yourself, yes, and understand that the human experience is all of those facets. You know, whenever we've spoken to mind, body, and soul. I think for so many years, it's still not understood that is actually what your human experience is. You are having the experience of your mind, of your body, of your soul, and our work is to integrate.

That's right, because when we are seen and valued only for our labor, then these systems benefit from the disconnection. Right, I'm not a living soul if I am just your laborer. Right, my heart doesn't matter, my body doesn't matter. And so to resist that notion that the ways in which I build up other institutions and systems is my worth and value, which is often for women and people of color, that has often been the narrative. And so to reject all of that and say, when I'm just sitting here on the couch, the two of us sitting here on the couch are worthy. Yeah, we're our real sip and tea and worthy. Yes, yes, yeah, that's the healing and the realization. To come home to myself is to tell myself the truth, and the truth is I am more than what I do for others. I am a living soul.

That's right, because when we are seen and valued only for our labor, then these systems benefit from the disconnection. Right, I'm not a living soul if I am just your laborer. Right, my heart doesn't matter, my body doesn't matter. And so to resist that notion that the ways in which I build up other institutions and systems is my worth and value, which is often for women and people of color, that has often been the narrative. And so to reject all of that and say, when I'm just sitting here on the couch, the two of us sitting here on the couch are worthy. Yeah, we're our real sip and tea and worthy. Yes, yes, yeah, that's the healing and the realization. To come home to myself is to tell myself the truth, and the truth is I am more than what I do for others. I am a living soul.

That line you set it just hit me in such a special place. You're telling the truth. Yeah, you're telling the truth. I remember a huge, a huge moment in my walk with God and the building of my faith was I was in so many dark places at once, and I remember, and I've always been very wellness focused and very holistic and very much and endure someone with quite a bit of resilience. But I remember this phrase came in. I just kept saying, like, God, what like what I've surrendered?

That line you set it just hit me in such a special place. You're telling the truth. Yeah, you're telling the truth. I remember a huge, a huge moment in my walk with God and the building of my faith was I was in so many dark places at once, and I remember, and I've always been very wellness focused and very holistic and very much and endure someone with quite a bit of resilience. But I remember this phrase came in. I just kept saying, like, God, what like what I've surrendered?

Like what is?

Like what is?

And what else do I need to know? And the exact wordage that came through was I accept the truth of my life. And it's like that it doesn't have to have a definition. And I think when people think of understanding their truth or who and what they are, they think it also has to be quantified or they have to know what that is, or it has to even be words that fill that space. And it's like that peace like right when you said it, It's like truth is so much and it's not just the language we have access to.

And what else do I need to know? And the exact wordage that came through was I accept the truth of my life. And it's like that it doesn't have to have a definition. And I think when people think of understanding their truth or who and what they are, they think it also has to be quantified or they have to know what that is, or it has to even be words that fill that space. And it's like that peace like right when you said it, It's like truth is so much and it's not just the language we have access to.

M One of my dear friends, Asia a Devo, is a poet and she has a poem that says, who lied right? Who lied to you? That told you a false sense of yourself. And we have experience and people that presented us with lies from very early and so it is the discarding and shedding of those lies so that I can know my worthiness.

M One of my dear friends, Asia a Devo, is a poet and she has a poem that says, who lied right? Who lied to you? That told you a false sense of yourself. And we have experience and people that presented us with lies from very early and so it is the discarding and shedding of those lies so that I can know my worthiness.

Yeah, before we get into the book, I would just love to ask a question to understand what makes such a unique being such as yourself. So your work it's deeply rooted in healing, in psychology and spirituality. What were some of the moments in your life that really, as you were in these different kind of facets of yourself, really understood your call and understood to blend them.

Yeah, before we get into the book, I would just love to ask a question to understand what makes such a unique being such as yourself. So your work it's deeply rooted in healing, in psychology and spirituality. What were some of the moments in your life that really, as you were in these different kind of facets of yourself, really understood your call and understood to blend them.

Yeah, yeah, I think one it's what in some settings can be seen as a weakness is actually your strength. And so growing up I would be what was called a sensitive child and right here we are, Here we are. Yeah, it's like you know, I remember reading the story of the Ugly Ducklan and I cried, Okay, so you feel things so deeply and in certain settings like that's a problem. But when you discover what you're here for, it's like, yes, you needed to. You had to be made that way right so that you could feel and be tender and notice things people don't notice right and pay attention. So I would say that sensitivity, just like at my heart and nature has been really important in my shaping. And then because my dad was a pastor, he would do what they would call pastoral counseling, so instead of people calling a therapist or a life coach, they would usually speak to their minister. And so I say in my prior book, Homecome, my first time working a crisis hotline was as a kid because people would call the house and they didn't care who answered the phone. They were just you answer. They're crying and I'm like hello, So that kind of nourishing, right. And my mother at some when I was like in middle school, she went into ministry as well, but focused on women's ministry, so you know, for me later to become the president of the Society for the Psychology of Women, as you know, I grew up seeing her do the work right, so having that compassion. And then I primarily grew up in Baltimore, which, while it's beautiful culturally, also has a lot of community violence. I had the wonderful experience of in high school moving to Liberia, West Africa with my family, and the first year and a half was amazing because I was celebrated, right, and because everyone in the position of authority look like me, So it really expands your idea of what you can be. Unfortunately, the second year, toward the end of the second year, there was a civil war. So you know, me dedicating my life to trauma recovery, you know, is what I have seen and to know that it's possible, that it's devastating and it doesn't have to be the end of our story. Wow.

Yeah, yeah, I think one it's what in some settings can be seen as a weakness is actually your strength. And so growing up I would be what was called a sensitive child and right here we are, Here we are. Yeah, it's like you know, I remember reading the story of the Ugly Ducklan and I cried, Okay, so you feel things so deeply and in certain settings like that's a problem. But when you discover what you're here for, it's like, yes, you needed to. You had to be made that way right so that you could feel and be tender and notice things people don't notice right and pay attention. So I would say that sensitivity, just like at my heart and nature has been really important in my shaping. And then because my dad was a pastor, he would do what they would call pastoral counseling, so instead of people calling a therapist or a life coach, they would usually speak to their minister. And so I say in my prior book, Homecome, my first time working a crisis hotline was as a kid because people would call the house and they didn't care who answered the phone. They were just you answer. They're crying and I'm like hello, So that kind of nourishing, right. And my mother at some when I was like in middle school, she went into ministry as well, but focused on women's ministry, so you know, for me later to become the president of the Society for the Psychology of Women, as you know, I grew up seeing her do the work right, so having that compassion. And then I primarily grew up in Baltimore, which, while it's beautiful culturally, also has a lot of community violence. I had the wonderful experience of in high school moving to Liberia, West Africa with my family, and the first year and a half was amazing because I was celebrated, right, and because everyone in the position of authority look like me, So it really expands your idea of what you can be. Unfortunately, the second year, toward the end of the second year, there was a civil war. So you know, me dedicating my life to trauma recovery, you know, is what I have seen and to know that it's possible, that it's devastating and it doesn't have to be the end of our story. Wow.

In those two places, I'm so curious, were there any differences in the ways that you saw people process trauma and pain.

In those two places, I'm so curious, were there any differences in the ways that you saw people process trauma and pain.

What I noticed in the community in Baltimore was more suppression and that the rule is to keep it moving. So there's a lot of you know, performing well.

What I noticed in the community in Baltimore was more suppression and that the rule is to keep it moving. So there's a lot of you know, performing well.

Right.

Right.

So when people say how are you, I'm good, good, right. Or in the church community, I'm blessed, I'm better than I do it, blessed and highly favor So we you know, affirm ourselves even when we're struggling on the inside. So there is not a lot of permission or space to be broken hearted. Yeah, and that it is more acceptable to be harsh than to be shattered. And so you know, it's a lot of warriors.

So when people say how are you, I'm good, good, right. Or in the church community, I'm blessed, I'm better than I do it, blessed and highly favor So we you know, affirm ourselves even when we're struggling on the inside. So there is not a lot of permission or space to be broken hearted. Yeah, and that it is more acceptable to be harsh than to be shattered. And so you know, it's a lot of warriors.

Oh wait, a minute, let's sit there, because that landed, that landed in somebody. And we on this show we explore trauma a lot and self healing alive. And that's the piece, right that I think is really confusing. And I can only speak to the experiences that I have really studied this in. But within black families, Yes, the harshness that can come from your family, from your parents, this idea of you know, well, the world ain't easy.

Oh wait, a minute, let's sit there, because that landed, that landed in somebody. And we on this show we explore trauma a lot and self healing alive. And that's the piece, right that I think is really confusing. And I can only speak to the experiences that I have really studied this in. But within black families, Yes, the harshness that can come from your family, from your parents, this idea of you know, well, the world ain't easy.

So got to prepare you. So that's the idea is that I'm toughening you up so the world doesn't devour you. So it comes for some people from a place of love, from good intention, but can destroy people's spirits if you're a more soft person or amplify and celebrate the hardness, and then there is not room for our humanity, right because I got to be a warrior at eight, right, And so there is, yeah, a pressure in order to survive is like don't be soft.

So got to prepare you. So that's the idea is that I'm toughening you up so the world doesn't devour you. So it comes for some people from a place of love, from good intention, but can destroy people's spirits if you're a more soft person or amplify and celebrate the hardness, and then there is not room for our humanity, right because I got to be a warrior at eight, right, And so there is, yeah, a pressure in order to survive is like don't be soft.

Yeah, And one of the things that you just said, where you know it's like this harshness. You know, I think the people with the harshness, and we too on the receiving end, believe it comes from love, but it comes from a lack of practice of love. You know, it comes from people that haven't even had the chants to practice love for themselves, so they don't understand how to live it as a verb. And yeah, wow.

Yeah, And one of the things that you just said, where you know it's like this harshness. You know, I think the people with the harshness, and we too on the receiving end, believe it comes from love, but it comes from a lack of practice of love. You know, it comes from people that haven't even had the chants to practice love for themselves, so they don't understand how to live it as a verb. And yeah, wow.

And I want to acknowledge historically there wasn't space for that. It's like there wasn't space. What people say, like I would be depressed, but I don't have time right there, So it is to take up space that had been generationally denied. Right, So people don't know how to lead you to what they could never do. And so then we are carrying people call it ancestral wounds or intergenerational wounds. But the gift is that we can shift it right and by our example show that there's another way. So while we honor, what I like to say is, you know, the ways you survived are not always the ways you want to live. So it's like, that's how you made it out of there. My mom was one of ten in the projects of New York, so she had to know how to fight right, and and so we honor that that's how you made it through that season. But then there are those of us who are not in crisis mode but still have not learned how to take off our armor.

And I want to acknowledge historically there wasn't space for that. It's like there wasn't space. What people say, like I would be depressed, but I don't have time right there, So it is to take up space that had been generationally denied. Right, So people don't know how to lead you to what they could never do. And so then we are carrying people call it ancestral wounds or intergenerational wounds. But the gift is that we can shift it right and by our example show that there's another way. So while we honor, what I like to say is, you know, the ways you survived are not always the ways you want to live. So it's like, that's how you made it out of there. My mom was one of ten in the projects of New York, so she had to know how to fight right, and and so we honor that that's how you made it through that season. But then there are those of us who are not in crisis mode but still have not learned how to take off our armor.

Yeah. Yeah, Now when you witnessed in Liberia the processing maybe of intergenerational trauma or of civil war trauma, are there any differences culturally to how people process in that area in other areas. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, Now when you witnessed in Liberia the processing maybe of intergenerational trauma or of civil war trauma, are there any differences culturally to how people process in that area in other areas. Yeah.

The two things that come to mind are and we have a taste of the first one. We have a taste of both of them. It just had to get diluted and shifted in our transition. But in Liberia they grieve and this is what we see with you would see like at some funerals and like a black church or people would be like oh right, because there's not this suppression that you see like at the opera of having to like contain and censor. It is like a full body release and it is evidence of love. Like if you don't like lay in the floor, you didn't love them, right, So there is a call and an expectation to freely feel your feelings. Right. And then the other piece that comes to mind is the truth telling and not sugarcoating. So like here, especially as a therapist, if we were going to have a support group through people for people who went through a hard time, we might say like women with Wings support group, right, you know, we don't call it something very flowery, and they literally the aftermath of the war had a group called Women with Rape Babies. Oh, I guess the name of the group, right.

The two things that come to mind are and we have a taste of the first one. We have a taste of both of them. It just had to get diluted and shifted in our transition. But in Liberia they grieve and this is what we see with you would see like at some funerals and like a black church or people would be like oh right, because there's not this suppression that you see like at the opera of having to like contain and censor. It is like a full body release and it is evidence of love. Like if you don't like lay in the floor, you didn't love them, right, So there is a call and an expectation to freely feel your feelings. Right. And then the other piece that comes to mind is the truth telling and not sugarcoating. So like here, especially as a therapist, if we were going to have a support group through people for people who went through a hard time, we might say like women with Wings support group, right, you know, we don't call it something very flowery, and they literally the aftermath of the war had a group called Women with Rape Babies. Oh, I guess the name of the group, right.

Oh.

Oh.

So it's like, we're gonna call it what it is. And I'm like, and people are gonna come, well, how else will they know that this is for them?

So it's like, we're gonna call it what it is. And I'm like, and people are gonna come, well, how else will they know that this is for them?

Oh?

Oh?

My god, Oh my god, yeah, my god. So there there's truth. There's truth.

My god, Oh my god, yeah, my god. So there there's truth. There's truth.

Wow. Yeah, that I mean, my god. The power in that truth, like the power in calling a thing a thing, yes, you know, like the power in being clear and saying what happened to you people, being clear that that's what happened to you.

Wow. Yeah, that I mean, my god. The power in that truth, like the power in calling a thing a thing, yes, you know, like the power in being clear and saying what happened to you people, being clear that that's what happened to you.

That if not my shame or my secret. It's like this is me and this is the baby and we're all here together.

That if not my shame or my secret. It's like this is me and this is the baby and we're all here together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mmm wow.

Mmm wow.

That is something just kind of in the work that I do has actually been coming up now more than ever, Like when I'm guiding retreats or when we're doing you know, some trauma and form facilitation. Those are some of the stories that have been coming up so much more. I don't necessarily want to stay here, but I'm just feeling so led to like be in the seat of this for a second. You know, when it comes to things like that that feel so garish, right, that feels so in the underbelly of wellness, because we have wellness in a lot of tears right now, right, And wellness quote unquote as an industry is this nearly five trillion dollar industry. The majority of that industry is centered in fitness, like that's being under the umbrella of wellness. But people are thinking that wellness and mental health and trauma are all kind of these interchangeable words, and they are all companion words, but they're not replacing each other. And so a lot of the ways that wellness and mental health is spoken to it in this day and age, it's really from the lens of anxiety, and it's really from the lens of kind of depression, but more so the daily hardship depressions of the world or of some you know, charged and unfair experiences and adverse experiences. But there is hundreds of millions of people that don't necessarily know where they fit in this conversation because when they're coming into these spaces and people are sharing about what is absolutely important and impactful in their lives. But then you do have a percentage of the population that feels a little more impossible to them to connect to this world. Right, So, just for anybody listening right now that resonated with that experience or an experience that is a lot harder to stay out loud in front of a group or to find pride in, how does one begin to approach that truth in their life?

That is something just kind of in the work that I do has actually been coming up now more than ever, Like when I'm guiding retreats or when we're doing you know, some trauma and form facilitation. Those are some of the stories that have been coming up so much more. I don't necessarily want to stay here, but I'm just feeling so led to like be in the seat of this for a second. You know, when it comes to things like that that feel so garish, right, that feels so in the underbelly of wellness, because we have wellness in a lot of tears right now, right, And wellness quote unquote as an industry is this nearly five trillion dollar industry. The majority of that industry is centered in fitness, like that's being under the umbrella of wellness. But people are thinking that wellness and mental health and trauma are all kind of these interchangeable words, and they are all companion words, but they're not replacing each other. And so a lot of the ways that wellness and mental health is spoken to it in this day and age, it's really from the lens of anxiety, and it's really from the lens of kind of depression, but more so the daily hardship depressions of the world or of some you know, charged and unfair experiences and adverse experiences. But there is hundreds of millions of people that don't necessarily know where they fit in this conversation because when they're coming into these spaces and people are sharing about what is absolutely important and impactful in their lives. But then you do have a percentage of the population that feels a little more impossible to them to connect to this world. Right, So, just for anybody listening right now that resonated with that experience or an experience that is a lot harder to stay out loud in front of a group or to find pride in, how does one begin to approach that truth in their life?

Yeah, I would say to first whisper it to yourself? Right, The first person I confess it to is me, you know. So one of the invitations that I invite people to is can you say I miss me? I miss me, and that acknowledges that who I have had to be. There are some parts of me that are missing, that got discarded along the way, that got hidden along the way, that got hurt along the way. And so in order to heal, I have to first be able to see the distinction between myself and my wound. And sometimes we are identifying with the wound, like, oh, that's just how I am. No, that's how you became. Right. So I miss me who could sleep well at night. I miss me who felt more confident. I miss me that didn't have this other stuff attached to my intimacy. I miss me, and so we can whether we journal that or speak that out loud. A truth confessed to the self is already a powerful truth. It's already instead of like, I'm good, I'm good. It didn't bother me, I don't think about it. I'm fine, and it's no I miss me and I had to become this other version of myself and there are some parts of me I want to get back. Thank you, and then picking friends that cultivate truth telling, right, It's like, because if I have to perform with you, like you're not really my friend, you know, and that may be something you're doing or the story I have told myself, but a part of my healing is you know, even if I don't like get up and on social media and tell the whole story, is there anyone you tell it to? Right? Yeah?

Yeah, I would say to first whisper it to yourself? Right, The first person I confess it to is me, you know. So one of the invitations that I invite people to is can you say I miss me? I miss me, and that acknowledges that who I have had to be. There are some parts of me that are missing, that got discarded along the way, that got hidden along the way, that got hurt along the way. And so in order to heal, I have to first be able to see the distinction between myself and my wound. And sometimes we are identifying with the wound, like, oh, that's just how I am. No, that's how you became. Right. So I miss me who could sleep well at night. I miss me who felt more confident. I miss me that didn't have this other stuff attached to my intimacy. I miss me, and so we can whether we journal that or speak that out loud. A truth confessed to the self is already a powerful truth. It's already instead of like, I'm good, I'm good. It didn't bother me, I don't think about it. I'm fine, and it's no I miss me and I had to become this other version of myself and there are some parts of me I want to get back. Thank you, and then picking friends that cultivate truth telling, right, It's like, because if I have to perform with you, like you're not really my friend, you know, and that may be something you're doing or the story I have told myself, but a part of my healing is you know, even if I don't like get up and on social media and tell the whole story, is there anyone you tell it to? Right? Yeah?

Deeply? Well, you know the books that you've released before this one that we're gonna step into. I mean, just you've been doing this work for so long, for so long, and I thank you, and I just really want to keep saying that. And I really thank you because doing work like this before most people even understood any of the connections, right, Like, it's a heavy work. It is such a heavy work to birth and so complex. So some of your previous books like Thriving in the Week of Trauma, a Multicultural Guide, you publish that in two thousand and eight, Surviving Sexual Violence A Guide to Recovery and Empowerment, publish that in twenty eleven. Tweets for the Soul when Life Falls Apart, that beautiful book came out in twenty fifteen, and now you have your latest book, Healing your relationships with yourself and those you love Matters of the Heart. What led you to this next pillar in your life's.

Deeply? Well, you know the books that you've released before this one that we're gonna step into. I mean, just you've been doing this work for so long, for so long, and I thank you, and I just really want to keep saying that. And I really thank you because doing work like this before most people even understood any of the connections, right, Like, it's a heavy work. It is such a heavy work to birth and so complex. So some of your previous books like Thriving in the Week of Trauma, a Multicultural Guide, you publish that in two thousand and eight, Surviving Sexual Violence A Guide to Recovery and Empowerment, publish that in twenty eleven. Tweets for the Soul when Life Falls Apart, that beautiful book came out in twenty fifteen, and now you have your latest book, Healing your relationships with yourself and those you love Matters of the Heart. What led you to this next pillar in your life's.

Work, Yeah, thank you for that. Recognizing how our relationships can nourish us or destroy us. Relationships, family, friendship, romantic, they shape our lives. So when they are healthy relationships, they're what we call protective factors. They can protect us from the depths of depression, from anxiety, from addiction, dealing with big life transitions. You know, if you're moving but you have your friends, or you're going through a divorce but you have good friends, that's a different experience. And on the other side, unhealthy relationships, heartbreak, abandonment, those things can devastate multiple areas of our lives, and they're often not talked about in that way. So if you're successful, then people just assume that, like everything is going to be a success and don't really talk about how our partnership can either elevate and nourish our lives or really can take away everything.

Work, Yeah, thank you for that. Recognizing how our relationships can nourish us or destroy us. Relationships, family, friendship, romantic, they shape our lives. So when they are healthy relationships, they're what we call protective factors. They can protect us from the depths of depression, from anxiety, from addiction, dealing with big life transitions. You know, if you're moving but you have your friends, or you're going through a divorce but you have good friends, that's a different experience. And on the other side, unhealthy relationships, heartbreak, abandonment, those things can devastate multiple areas of our lives, and they're often not talked about in that way. So if you're successful, then people just assume that, like everything is going to be a success and don't really talk about how our partnership can either elevate and nourish our lives or really can take away everything.

Everything. Yeah, everything, m h.

Everything. Yeah, everything, m h.

It's true on every level. And so I dedicated the book to my mom, who transitioned last year as a result of breast cancer, and she loved deeply and fiercely. And one of the moments that stood out to me is I had a friend who had like a very rough upbringing who got to meet my parents and she said, Tama, I wonder who I would be if I had your parents, And it really hit me right, it makes a big difference, huge. So I know the ways in which heard love set me up for success, and I also know the impact that lack of love, lack of nourishing can have as well.

It's true on every level. And so I dedicated the book to my mom, who transitioned last year as a result of breast cancer, and she loved deeply and fiercely. And one of the moments that stood out to me is I had a friend who had like a very rough upbringing who got to meet my parents and she said, Tama, I wonder who I would be if I had your parents, And it really hit me right, it makes a big difference, huge. So I know the ways in which heard love set me up for success, and I also know the impact that lack of love, lack of nourishing can have as well.

Yeah, and I think you know, forgive me universe. I don't know who to attribute this to, but you know that's saying of like, it's not always what happens to you. It's like sometimes what didn't happen to you, and like experiences like that, And I think like, especially within the kind of generation that is like between thirty and fifty right now, that was a really specific moment in time in the childhoods of those ages that I think, you know, hopefully and a lot of social scientists are kind of coming with more comprehensive studies of the effects. But you know, being latchkey kids, being the generation that raise themselves more than any other generation. It's like, I think that that is even if you had big T trauma or not, or just life's friction, that is a layer of grief. A lot of people in these age demos are really going through like you know, who, not that this moment isn't perfect and divinely designed, but who could you have been if you didn't have so much responsibility or didn't have to do so many things by yourself, or you know, didn't have your parents as the first generation with like adults with AOL or the ones to be distracted and really not you know, plopping you in front of the TV or the chat rooms. And it's very real, like there are so many things that were missed in your development, you know that was part of your story, and so much extra stress and trauma that lives inside it for your body right now because of it, because of the fast food of the time, because of it. It's every generation definitely has their stuff in so many ways. But that piece I think is really coming up for people now more than ever. What didn't I get right?

Yeah, and I think you know, forgive me universe. I don't know who to attribute this to, but you know that's saying of like, it's not always what happens to you. It's like sometimes what didn't happen to you, and like experiences like that, And I think like, especially within the kind of generation that is like between thirty and fifty right now, that was a really specific moment in time in the childhoods of those ages that I think, you know, hopefully and a lot of social scientists are kind of coming with more comprehensive studies of the effects. But you know, being latchkey kids, being the generation that raise themselves more than any other generation. It's like, I think that that is even if you had big T trauma or not, or just life's friction, that is a layer of grief. A lot of people in these age demos are really going through like you know, who, not that this moment isn't perfect and divinely designed, but who could you have been if you didn't have so much responsibility or didn't have to do so many things by yourself, or you know, didn't have your parents as the first generation with like adults with AOL or the ones to be distracted and really not you know, plopping you in front of the TV or the chat rooms. And it's very real, like there are so many things that were missed in your development, you know that was part of your story, and so much extra stress and trauma that lives inside it for your body right now because of it, because of the fast food of the time, because of it. It's every generation definitely has their stuff in so many ways. But that piece I think is really coming up for people now more than ever. What didn't I get right?

Eve Ensler and an interview about the Vagina Monologues, says, all of the energy women's been healing, Like if we didn't have to heal from the abusive relationships, from the molestation, what could we be creating, writing, building, launching right with that same energy? Which is why in therapy I often say it's not just about decreasing symptoms of distress, it is about now, like what are you going to create and be? Right? So it's not just post trauma. It is now like my growth and my thriving and like now I get to be myself right.

Eve Ensler and an interview about the Vagina Monologues, says, all of the energy women's been healing, Like if we didn't have to heal from the abusive relationships, from the molestation, what could we be creating, writing, building, launching right with that same energy? Which is why in therapy I often say it's not just about decreasing symptoms of distress, it is about now, like what are you going to create and be? Right? So it's not just post trauma. It is now like my growth and my thriving and like now I get to be myself right.

Yeah, yeah, And just a moment of congratulations to everybody listening that is alive and has survived and is here listening to this episode right now, and all of the limitless potential of who you are and who you can be.

Yeah, yeah, And just a moment of congratulations to everybody listening that is alive and has survived and is here listening to this episode right now, and all of the limitless potential of who you are and who you can be.

It is so important for us to pause and appreciate ourselves because often we're so busy in push mode and striving mode that we don't get to say, even if I am not fully where I want to be, let me acknowledge I'm not where I was, right, And so to train my eyes to see my own growth.

It is so important for us to pause and appreciate ourselves because often we're so busy in push mode and striving mode that we don't get to say, even if I am not fully where I want to be, let me acknowledge I'm not where I was, right, And so to train my eyes to see my own growth.

Oh, to train my eyes to see my own growth? Right? Oh? Yes, like, oh, bear witness to yourself.

Oh, to train my eyes to see my own growth? Right? Oh? Yes, like, oh, bear witness to yourself.

Yes, in all the processes. Yes, to say like a year ago, I wouldn't have made this choice. I wouldn't have even noticed that, or I wouldn't have even known that I could have permission to be that way, or to say that, yes, it's wonderful, and all the feels when you're saying that, I'm just.

Yes, in all the processes. Yes, to say like a year ago, I wouldn't have made this choice. I wouldn't have even noticed that, or I wouldn't have even known that I could have permission to be that way, or to say that, yes, it's wonderful, and all the feels when you're saying that, I'm just.

Like, oh, yes, Lord, you know in this book the one of the subjects that you tackle that I think is just so incredibly relevant to so many people, And so many people cannot necessarily find the trail back to what brought this behavior out, but issues of control, specifically emotional unavailability. It feels like we are Maybe it's just because we have language for it now, but my God, does this seem like its own epidemic emotional unavailability and how unreciprocated love impacts our well being? Yes? Why do so many of us struggle with those particular patterns that seems to be so so so pervasive, controlling unavailability, inability to be truly intimate and connect and kind of finding oneself in dynamics of unreciprocated love or feeling of all different kinds. Why is that? Why is that so prevalent now? And how do people approach it?

Like, oh, yes, Lord, you know in this book the one of the subjects that you tackle that I think is just so incredibly relevant to so many people, And so many people cannot necessarily find the trail back to what brought this behavior out, but issues of control, specifically emotional unavailability. It feels like we are Maybe it's just because we have language for it now, but my God, does this seem like its own epidemic emotional unavailability and how unreciprocated love impacts our well being? Yes? Why do so many of us struggle with those particular patterns that seems to be so so so pervasive, controlling unavailability, inability to be truly intimate and connect and kind of finding oneself in dynamics of unreciprocated love or feeling of all different kinds. Why is that? Why is that so prevalent now? And how do people approach it?

Yeah? I think there has been a real devaluing a relationship. So there is this focus on attaining and being driven and accumulating and being booked and busy and you know, yes, right, so when I am so focused in a targeted way, I can neglect my own relationships and so then I'm not available for that. Because another piece of it is being raised or mentored by people who were disappointed and hurt. Yeah, then they advise you, you know, don't get caught up, don't believe them, don't do that, don't do that, And so then we fear it not to mention our own stories of heartbreak and disappointment. That can cause us to out of fear. And I want to say it's understandable and important that we take pause after heartbreak. Right, you don't want to just jump into something else, But some people get stuck in the pause. So it's been years later and they're still like, oh no, thanks none for me. I don't want it. I'm not interested. And so then that heart never got to heal.

Yeah? I think there has been a real devaluing a relationship. So there is this focus on attaining and being driven and accumulating and being booked and busy and you know, yes, right, so when I am so focused in a targeted way, I can neglect my own relationships and so then I'm not available for that. Because another piece of it is being raised or mentored by people who were disappointed and hurt. Yeah, then they advise you, you know, don't get caught up, don't believe them, don't do that, don't do that, And so then we fear it not to mention our own stories of heartbreak and disappointment. That can cause us to out of fear. And I want to say it's understandable and important that we take pause after heartbreak. Right, you don't want to just jump into something else, But some people get stuck in the pause. So it's been years later and they're still like, oh no, thanks none for me. I don't want it. I'm not interested. And so then that heart never got to heal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and then the part about wanting people who don't want us and holding on to that you know this phrase I like that people uses around bread crumbing, right. Yeah. So they give you just like a little bit oh like, oh, you think they're gone, and then they text you like three weeks later or you know, and more, good morning sunshine. It's a lord. And so that we can hold on out of hope. And then also we often think about people as being insecure, but the opposite can happen. When you're confident and successful, you can convince yourself I'm gonna win them over right, So it's not just that you feel like you're the worst. You're just like if I call them this, if I do this, if I dress this way, if I am funny enough, if I you know, then they're gonna see that I'm worth choosing. And so to really get to that place of grounding that we don't think about relationships as we think about a job promotion.

Yeah, and then the part about wanting people who don't want us and holding on to that you know this phrase I like that people uses around bread crumbing, right. Yeah. So they give you just like a little bit oh like, oh, you think they're gone, and then they text you like three weeks later or you know, and more, good morning sunshine. It's a lord. And so that we can hold on out of hope. And then also we often think about people as being insecure, but the opposite can happen. When you're confident and successful, you can convince yourself I'm gonna win them over right, So it's not just that you feel like you're the worst. You're just like if I call them this, if I do this, if I dress this way, if I am funny enough, if I you know, then they're gonna see that I'm worth choosing. And so to really get to that place of grounding that we don't think about relationships as we think about a job promotion.

Okay, hold on, wow, can we explore that a little bit because I think that that is it's just I don't think everybody understands how much they perform yes, and how much they are innately wired to quote unquote win someone over, and how that gives them the kind of endurance, the emotional you know, fortitude to keep pushing through mistreatment or nonchalance.

Okay, hold on, wow, can we explore that a little bit because I think that that is it's just I don't think everybody understands how much they perform yes, and how much they are innately wired to quote unquote win someone over, and how that gives them the kind of endurance, the emotional you know, fortitude to keep pushing through mistreatment or nonchalance.

And then once the people are quote unquote one, then they often lose interest, right, because we can get become enamored with the pursuit, with the chase. Yeah, so we also have to look at what is my idea about myself that when people want me, I find that undesirable.

And then once the people are quote unquote one, then they often lose interest, right, because we can get become enamored with the pursuit, with the chase. Yeah, so we also have to look at what is my idea about myself that when people want me, I find that undesirable.

Yeah, hold on, get your note.

Yeah, hold on, get your note.

Bunk, And like you know, when they're not interested, I'm like, oh my gosh, right, I need them. And then when they're in your direction, it's like, oh they're born.

Bunk, And like you know, when they're not interested, I'm like, oh my gosh, right, I need them. And then when they're in your direction, it's like, oh they're born.

So tell the people, yes, why are they doing that?

So tell the people, yes, why are they doing that?

It is own emotional unavailability. So that will create a pattern where I am constantly interested in people who are not reciprocating because they're not available, because the truth is I'm not because if someone was actually to show up for me, that could be intense, that could be overwhelming, that could be very vulnerable. So instead, I'll keep waiting for this one to leave their wife, or I'll keep waiting for this one to let go of their six other people and focus on me. It's safe. It's a fantasy. And so fantasy can take up years of our lives instead of creating real relationship.

It is own emotional unavailability. So that will create a pattern where I am constantly interested in people who are not reciprocating because they're not available, because the truth is I'm not because if someone was actually to show up for me, that could be intense, that could be overwhelming, that could be very vulnerable. So instead, I'll keep waiting for this one to leave their wife, or I'll keep waiting for this one to let go of their six other people and focus on me. It's safe. It's a fantasy. And so fantasy can take up years of our lives instead of creating real relationship.

That is so important to say and be heard. Fantasy can take up your entire life. Yes, perform, you can leave this earth having the entire time been playing a performance. Yes, never having been an actualized version of who you are for anybody.

That is so important to say and be heard. Fantasy can take up your entire life. Yes, perform, you can leave this earth having the entire time been playing a performance. Yes, never having been an actualized version of who you are for anybody.

Yes, what a tragedy.

Yes, what a tragedy.

That's not what we're here.

That's not what we're here.

Right, And to go back to telling ourselves the truth? Right, So then the truth becomes I don't actually want anybody, so I'm gonna keep saying I want this person who's not choosing me. Right, So it's like, yeah, tell yourself the truth. What's really going on here? What are you doing? Yeah?

Right, And to go back to telling ourselves the truth? Right, So then the truth becomes I don't actually want anybody, so I'm gonna keep saying I want this person who's not choosing me. Right, So it's like, yeah, tell yourself the truth. What's really going on here? What are you doing? Yeah?

Right?

Right?

Or the truth may be I don't believe anyone would ever treat me well because I've never experienced it. So for some people it's a faith walk. Can I believe that I could be adored when I have never been?

Or the truth may be I don't believe anyone would ever treat me well because I've never experienced it. So for some people it's a faith walk. Can I believe that I could be adored when I have never been?

Yeah?

Yeah?

And the answer is yes you can, Yes, Yes.

And the answer is yes you can, Yes, Yes.

You can yes, and that is so deep. It's just it's so interesting. You know, it's like even for those listening, it's like we're in conversation, right, and someone listening is like they're in the midst of their day. But like some of the things that have just been identified, they're the root of the root, right. It is the core thing, the core, the depth of a thing that is keeping you from everything, you know. And it's like I just yeah, like we have to really hold that with the sacredness it deserves, because like that is what you are alive to approach. That is what the work is. And you know, I think for a lot of people when they're trying to understand what their work is, it's just I found for myself it was so helpful to switch the trauma and the disappointments to a lens of this is my spiritual curriculum in this lifetime. This is exactly what I meant to be thinking about. So instead of not thinking about it, I must let myself think about it and approach it and look at it because these were the set of circumstances I was meant to be in motion with while I'm here.

You can yes, and that is so deep. It's just it's so interesting. You know, it's like even for those listening, it's like we're in conversation, right, and someone listening is like they're in the midst of their day. But like some of the things that have just been identified, they're the root of the root, right. It is the core thing, the core, the depth of a thing that is keeping you from everything, you know. And it's like I just yeah, like we have to really hold that with the sacredness it deserves, because like that is what you are alive to approach. That is what the work is. And you know, I think for a lot of people when they're trying to understand what their work is, it's just I found for myself it was so helpful to switch the trauma and the disappointments to a lens of this is my spiritual curriculum in this lifetime. This is exactly what I meant to be thinking about. So instead of not thinking about it, I must let myself think about it and approach it and look at it because these were the set of circumstances I was meant to be in motion with while I'm here.

And I think it's so important for us to recognize that denial and minimizing and avoidance don't work. So our wounds show up even when we say I'm fine. So we say like, oh, I don't think about things like that. I don't talk about things like that. But it affects the way I date, It affects the way that I parent, It affects the way I deal with authority, figures on the job because it is unhealed. And so it's not just like an invitation to say, oh, let's just look at trauma for trauma's sake. Trauma is looking at you, right, It is writing your story. And so I choose to reclaim the pen that there were some things written on the pages of my life that I did not choose, Yes, and I'm not able to erase them. They happened, and I have the pen now, So what do I want to write with the rest of my story? God?

And I think it's so important for us to recognize that denial and minimizing and avoidance don't work. So our wounds show up even when we say I'm fine. So we say like, oh, I don't think about things like that. I don't talk about things like that. But it affects the way I date, It affects the way that I parent, It affects the way I deal with authority, figures on the job because it is unhealed. And so it's not just like an invitation to say, oh, let's just look at trauma for trauma's sake. Trauma is looking at you, right, It is writing your story. And so I choose to reclaim the pen that there were some things written on the pages of my life that I did not choose, Yes, and I'm not able to erase them. They happened, and I have the pen now, So what do I want to write with the rest of my story? God?

So it's just so powerful and true and beautiful, and it's you know, and I think, yeah, you know, so many people avoid it, right because you think that once you admit it or say it or look at it, you will be ravaged by it and you will live in it. But it's like No, I just want it to be noticed. I just wanted to be seen a few good times so I could be released.

So it's just so powerful and true and beautiful, and it's you know, and I think, yeah, you know, so many people avoid it, right because you think that once you admit it or say it or look at it, you will be ravaged by it and you will live in it. But it's like No, I just want it to be noticed. I just wanted to be seen a few good times so I could be released.

Right, we're running and you can't outrun it because it's on you. It's in you. So it is. The more I run from it, the bigger it gets. And when I start to look at it and speak it, I shrink it by recognizing I am bigger than what was done to me.

Right, we're running and you can't outrun it because it's on you. It's in you. So it is. The more I run from it, the bigger it gets. And when I start to look at it and speak it, I shrink it by recognizing I am bigger than what was done to me.

I am wow, thank you deeply well. One of the greatest determinants of our overall wellness is truly the quality of our relationships. From a psychological and spiritual perspective. What are the core ingredients for a nourishing relationship? Friendship, romantic in relationship? But what are the core elements of one that is healthy and is nourishing?

I am wow, thank you deeply well. One of the greatest determinants of our overall wellness is truly the quality of our relationships. From a psychological and spiritual perspective. What are the core ingredients for a nourishing relationship? Friendship, romantic in relationship? But what are the core elements of one that is healthy and is nourishing?

Yeah, so one is loving care Right. If I love you, I'm not going to do certain things. Right. If I love you and I care about you, I'm going to be intentional. If I love you and care about you, it's not a burden. You don't have to keep asking for certain things because it's out of love. Right. So sometimes we have to tell ourselves the truth of life. Do you even care about that person? Right? Because sometimes we are with people because we are into their potential, which is not love. It's like, oh, I want to make you. I'm gonna make you god my dream person out of you. And it's like you don't care about that person. Set them free and let them find someone who loves them as they are. Right, So yeah, let's on a core level that love and care in their present condition. So yes, we all want to grow and evolve. But if I don't care about you now, then I need to release you. So that's one. Another one is you. We hear it from everybody, which is communication. A lot of us are conflict avoidant, so we don't speak up. One we wish people would read our minds. I mean right, yeah, I understand, and then you know, based on our past, we might feel like if I share an issue, they might get mad or they might leave. So now I'm just holding it in. But the resentment is growing and they're continuing the behavior, not knowing that you really care, not knowing that that's an issue. So we have to lean into the hard conversations and allow people to see us with all that comes with us, and we also have to be willing to hear them and to know we're not clones. We won't think the same on everything, our emotional response won't be the same one. So learning each other's language is an important part of having a healthy connection. And then we want relationships that are reciprocal and mutual, not one sided. Whether we're talking about friendship or romance. It shouldn't be one person doing everything. Yeah, we need to give and receipt.

Yeah, so one is loving care Right. If I love you, I'm not going to do certain things. Right. If I love you and I care about you, I'm going to be intentional. If I love you and care about you, it's not a burden. You don't have to keep asking for certain things because it's out of love. Right. So sometimes we have to tell ourselves the truth of life. Do you even care about that person? Right? Because sometimes we are with people because we are into their potential, which is not love. It's like, oh, I want to make you. I'm gonna make you god my dream person out of you. And it's like you don't care about that person. Set them free and let them find someone who loves them as they are. Right, So yeah, let's on a core level that love and care in their present condition. So yes, we all want to grow and evolve. But if I don't care about you now, then I need to release you. So that's one. Another one is you. We hear it from everybody, which is communication. A lot of us are conflict avoidant, so we don't speak up. One we wish people would read our minds. I mean right, yeah, I understand, and then you know, based on our past, we might feel like if I share an issue, they might get mad or they might leave. So now I'm just holding it in. But the resentment is growing and they're continuing the behavior, not knowing that you really care, not knowing that that's an issue. So we have to lean into the hard conversations and allow people to see us with all that comes with us, and we also have to be willing to hear them and to know we're not clones. We won't think the same on everything, our emotional response won't be the same one. So learning each other's language is an important part of having a healthy connection. And then we want relationships that are reciprocal and mutual, not one sided. Whether we're talking about friendship or romance. It shouldn't be one person doing everything. Yeah, we need to give and receipt.

What is what does reciprocal look like? Because that is a question that comes up a lot from people because I think often people think reciprocity is the exact same thing in return.

What is what does reciprocal look like? Because that is a question that comes up a lot from people because I think often people think reciprocity is the exact same thing in return.

Right it may. This is an important one because our personalities and our strengths are different.

Right it may. This is an important one because our personalities and our strengths are different.

Right.

Right.

So the funny that comes to my mind is with my parents. Before my mom was dating my dad, she was dating this guy who was a poet, so, you know, laying it on all the words, all the words ever from God's mouth. Tell then what she said? She started dating my dad and literally, he'll sign a card love John. Why that that's all you're gonna get? So is it gonna now if she could write a whole, big, long poem, but is she gonna get a poem back? No, it's not like his thing. So we have to recognize, you know, the ways that people show their love.

So the funny that comes to my mind is with my parents. Before my mom was dating my dad, she was dating this guy who was a poet, so, you know, laying it on all the words, all the words ever from God's mouth. Tell then what she said? She started dating my dad and literally, he'll sign a card love John. Why that that's all you're gonna get? So is it gonna now if she could write a whole, big, long poem, but is she gonna get a poem back? No, it's not like his thing. So we have to recognize, you know, the ways that people show their love.

Right.

Right.

I was working with a couple and I raised this point because the wife is into self help books and wanted the husband to like read all these books about like successful marriage, and he didn't want to read them. But he's never been a reader. It's like when they were dating, he wasn't a reader. When they were engaged, he wasn't a reader. Like. So to make the number of books the measure you of his love for you is not fair. Right, doesn't mean he doesn't care, it's just that's not his thing.

I was working with a couple and I raised this point because the wife is into self help books and wanted the husband to like read all these books about like successful marriage, and he didn't want to read them. But he's never been a reader. It's like when they were dating, he wasn't a reader. When they were engaged, he wasn't a reader. Like. So to make the number of books the measure you of his love for you is not fair. Right, doesn't mean he doesn't care, it's just that's not his thing.

So that's so good, And it may not be how his brain works, Like he may not even be able to retain in if he reads it, depending on yeah, yeah, yeah, so he's willing to go to couple's therapy.

So that's so good, And it may not be how his brain works, Like he may not even be able to retain in if he reads it, depending on yeah, yeah, yeah, so he's willing to go to couple's therapy.

Awesome, let's let's do let's do that. Yeah, let's do that.

Awesome, let's let's do let's do that. Yeah, let's do that.

You know, I think one of the last things I'd love to ask you before I invite you to do some soul work. Loneliness is a big theme for people, and we're seeing a lot of studies come out about it. People are talking about it more than ever people choosing to be single. Is that some of the highest numbers it's ever been or at least have been recorded. You know, I think a lot of one can be lonely for so many reasons. First, let me say that I don't want to be overly general with our understanding of loneliness because it's so layered and there's so many there's so many barriers, there's so many reasons for it. But you know, one of the reasons that I think not everyone notices is that some of their loneliness and self isolation is self imposed because they don't necessarily have the tools for deeper intimacy, though they crave it. How can people begin to move beyond surface level interactions and start to cultivate those deeper relationships, that deeper community, that even deeper communication that they have been longing for or wanting to experience your first time.

You know, I think one of the last things I'd love to ask you before I invite you to do some soul work. Loneliness is a big theme for people, and we're seeing a lot of studies come out about it. People are talking about it more than ever people choosing to be single. Is that some of the highest numbers it's ever been or at least have been recorded. You know, I think a lot of one can be lonely for so many reasons. First, let me say that I don't want to be overly general with our understanding of loneliness because it's so layered and there's so many there's so many barriers, there's so many reasons for it. But you know, one of the reasons that I think not everyone notices is that some of their loneliness and self isolation is self imposed because they don't necessarily have the tools for deeper intimacy, though they crave it. How can people begin to move beyond surface level interactions and start to cultivate those deeper relationships, that deeper community, that even deeper communication that they have been longing for or wanting to experience your first time.

Yeah, it's important that we look at the stories we've been telling ourselves, because the story I've told myself about love or about relationships or about attractiveness can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. Right, So, people will say like, oh, I really want a partner, and they go out there at a restaurant or wherever they are and someone approaches them and they respond in warrior mode like what do you want to know my name for?

Yeah, it's important that we look at the stories we've been telling ourselves, because the story I've told myself about love or about relationships or about attractiveness can then shape my behavior, and that can lead me to sabotage the possibility of connection. Right, So, people will say like, oh, I really want a partner, and they go out there at a restaurant or wherever they are and someone approaches them and they respond in warrior mode like what do you want to know my name for?

Like, wait, I'm looking at why are you sharing at me?

Like, wait, I'm looking at why are you sharing at me?

So now I'm blacking my blessing right because I showed up for combat and I want connection. So we or you know people who are on these apps, and I know there can be a lot of mess on there, but some people are like eliminating everybody. Right, It's like no, then to this, to that, It's like you want to at least have a conversation less at least see if it's possible.

So now I'm blacking my blessing right because I showed up for combat and I want connection. So we or you know people who are on these apps, and I know there can be a lot of mess on there, but some people are like eliminating everybody. Right, It's like no, then to this, to that, It's like you want to at least have a conversation less at least see if it's possible.

Well that may or may not be me.

Well that may or may not be me.

Yeah, So in that exploring the story and then that whole thing of like if I want something different, I may have to do something different, right, Yeah, And it can help to get feedback from people if you have close friends, you know, to say, you know, are there any things you've noticed about me in this space? Right? It may be you know, oh, you hook on the people too quickly and that either scares them away or then you're all hooked up and it wasn't fulfilling anyway, so you like you're back into a bad situation. But our our people, if we've let them in, can see us, and sometimes they can help us to see ourselves.

Yeah, So in that exploring the story and then that whole thing of like if I want something different, I may have to do something different, right, Yeah, And it can help to get feedback from people if you have close friends, you know, to say, you know, are there any things you've noticed about me in this space? Right? It may be you know, oh, you hook on the people too quickly and that either scares them away or then you're all hooked up and it wasn't fulfilling anyway, so you like you're back into a bad situation. But our our people, if we've let them in, can see us, and sometimes they can help us to see ourselves.

Yeah, and what a gift to to be able to ask that of people. And I do you know acknowledge that everybody has yet those safe and kind of mutually witnessing friendships where you can ask questions like that in a safe way. But if you do, and if it's just been you know, kind of a defensiveness or something that comes in because you don't want to quote unquote hear something bad about yourself, think about that and really lean into that, because I think sometimes our friends have a lot of deep truths for us. Our community has a lot of deep truths for us that they may have always wanted to say to us as an aid, as a help, but don't necessarily know that there's space to don't want to upset you or jeopardize you know the integrity of the relationship remaining. But those can be some of our most valuable, valuable mirrors in our lives.

Yeah, and what a gift to to be able to ask that of people. And I do you know acknowledge that everybody has yet those safe and kind of mutually witnessing friendships where you can ask questions like that in a safe way. But if you do, and if it's just been you know, kind of a defensiveness or something that comes in because you don't want to quote unquote hear something bad about yourself, think about that and really lean into that, because I think sometimes our friends have a lot of deep truths for us. Our community has a lot of deep truths for us that they may have always wanted to say to us as an aid, as a help, but don't necessarily know that there's space to don't want to upset you or jeopardize you know the integrity of the relationship remaining. But those can be some of our most valuable, valuable mirrors in our lives.

Right, It's so true. And so I would say also for us, like being teachable, being flexible, being willing to shift. You know that sometimes my way of talking to people or my way of being may not align with my goal. Right, So now I'm standing all my wings, I'm blacking myself. So let me explore another way.

Right, It's so true. And so I would say also for us, like being teachable, being flexible, being willing to shift. You know that sometimes my way of talking to people or my way of being may not align with my goal. Right, So now I'm standing all my wings, I'm blacking myself. So let me explore another way.

This has been such a beautiful episode. At the end of every episode, I like to invite the guys to share some soul work with the audience. So any kind of practice, thought, inquiry, exercise to further integrate everything that they just experienced on this show.

This has been such a beautiful episode. At the end of every episode, I like to invite the guys to share some soul work with the audience. So any kind of practice, thought, inquiry, exercise to further integrate everything that they just experienced on this show.

Oh wonderful. So I'll invite us to some compassion holds, and the first ones will put our legs uncrossed and uncross our arms. And I want to start off by saying, I believe in body sovereignty. So with body sovereignty, nothing that I invite you to do are you forced to do? So you as I invite you, you take pause and say do I feel like doing that? Do I want to do that? Or do I just want to watch them do that? You get to choose, and that's a part of your healing. You're yes and you're no. So if it aligns with you, one hand on your heart, one hand on your belly inhaling in through the nose, exhaling out through the mouth, and the hand on the belly goes up to the forehead, inhale and exhale. The hand on the heart goes to the back of the head. Inhaling through the nose, exhale out through the mouth, and hug yourself inhaling in through the nose, exhaling out through the mouth. If it aligns with you, you just begin and rocking back and forth. You are your comforter. You give yourself grace and give yourself love. And if it aligns with you, we say the words, I am worthy of love.