Mm from grandmothers who whispered in their baby girl in two fathers on dimly lit street corners, instructing young soldiers to always keep their eyes open. You be queen, you were fired. You will pass through centuries on the hands of your daughters. They called you wisdom. Proverbs on the backs of diamond eyed school children who growing into hymnals recited by amethyst holding urban philosophers who recited neighborhood commandments out of the windows of restored Alchemedo chariots to keep the warmth of their blood. Be wise, be smart, being black, Opal Brown courts, bloodstone and prayer. Be every form of jim. See king, told, scribe, scribe, told son, son, told wife, wife told her daughter, and daughter told the ass is. And the ancestors told me that you would come to give wisdom thousands. They said you would come dropping dropping the jim that got it. Hey, Welcome to another episode of The Dropping Gym's podcast. I am your host, Debbie Brown, and this is a show where we explore higher consciousness for real life. So wherever you happen to find yourself on the path, whether you're just beginning your beautiful spiritual journey, whether you are deepening, whether you are an integration and embodiment or whether you are in your beautiful mastery. Um. This show has something for everyone and is filled with opportunities to observe and explore ourselves with tenderness, with joy, uh and with urgency. So today's show, we are really going to be leaning into some of the house if you happen to be catching the show. In May, it's Mental Health Month and a lot of expansive conversations are happening around mental health that has become gratefully a big center piece of the ways in which we are looking at ourselves and looking at society right now. And when we think of mental health, I think sometimes it's considered that it exists in a completely different category than our spiritual well being. But the way that I see things is always through a holistic lens and holistic approach, and it's really about the integration of all of the things for our highest good. So what are all the pillars that we we can lean into as we remember our wholeness? So when I think of mental health, I think of it as encompassing our spiritual journey, our journey potentially in therapy or with psychologists um our experiences with how we're treating ourselves and our bodies and our ability to kind of stand in our self awareness and to be with ourselves, and some then I speak to on this show, but I definitely am in conversation so often with many different friends, especially in this wellness space, is around how there is such a false narrative and belief in what wellness is supposed to look like, that it is this you know, destination you've arrived at and all of a sudden everything is all good. But I think most teachers UM that stand in their authenticity will be the first to tell you, including myself, that it's less about being in positivity and less about this perfection as it is about an acceptance and an allowance of the natural ebbs and flows of life and the natural weaving of our spiritual curriculum and the lens of perception that we choose in each moment to view it with, and how we allow it to relate to our sense of self and our sense of worth. So on today's show, I really want to kind of sit inside the pieces about our self awareness and using it as a tool of resistance, using our wholeness as a tool of resistance in the world, and really using our ability to check in with our bodies and our ability to question our feelings and kind of stay steeped and a joyful curiosity of self study as the way in which we can begin to experience ourselves um for long term lasting effects of peace, ease, and grace in this uh constantly winding journey that we call life on earth as human beings, as our beautiful spiritual souls exist in this human technology, our bodies, and how to make this experience of being alive on earth for our highest good and for maximum connection to the divine and to our ascension. So today's show is going to be kind of stepping into all those things that I have a really special guest, And what I really love about this guest, who I'm gonna kind of deepen in my explanation of in just a moment. What I really love about this guest is not only is he deeply um within his spiritual process and practice. He's a masterful teacher of his work and of Buddhist teachings, but he's also a man who is committed to feeling all the fields, which is so radical in and of itself, especially um in society up until this point, Uh, and especially in this country, and especially when it comes to men of color. So today's episode, I'll be introducing UH wonder full person who I consider a great friend, a beautiful leader in this space, and someone who deeply, deeply works this process and shows up with the work. My special guest today's name is Minoj Dias. So since first being introduced to the magic meditation decades ago and embarking on his own journey, MINOJH Dias has helped thousands of people to embrace stillness of mind and body, enabling them to live fearlessly on the path to a happier and more meaningful life. His teaching and practice is informed by Buddhist philosophy, psychology, and social justice principles, with an emphasis on promoting diversity and inclusion in the wellness space. After training under renowned teachers, Minoja has based himself between the US and Australia for the past five years, teaching meditation and mindfulness across both continents. In two thousand and fifteen, he founded a Space, Australia's first drop in meditation studio, and he became the co founder of Open California based wellness platform. He is also the co founder of the Australian New Zealand arm of every Man, a men's emotional intelligent movement. So welcome to the show, my friend, minoj Dis Hello, Hello, my beautiful friend. Nice to see your face, So good to see you. It is so good to spend time with you. A little background on me and Minose, we kind of met through the Choper universe, UM, through a very wonderful mutual friend of ours, and then we found ourselves one evening in Venice having UM, a delicious chicken meal, also people watching UM, but having really beautiful, beautiful conversation. And I know, I felt like when we were sitting there breaking bread and talking about the world and talking about our souls and talking about God, I just felt, um, I just felt deeply connected. And I've I've loved your work from Afar, I love following you on social I've had the chance to peek into some of your gorgeous meditations, and so I'm really excited to have you on the show today. Uh, Debbie, thank you. And I felt exactly the same way. And I think I left because I just moved from from Australia to l A and then you were like you and Daline or actually like the first one of the first people that I had had to know with in the middle of COVID. Right. It was a bit weird at that time because no one was really eating out and we just kind of had that little little meal and it was a really beautiful moment. So yes, I definitely feel the same way. Yeah, So how's your heart right now? How are you feeling as we're coming on the other side of what has been um for those living in this moment in time, probably the most challenging moment in human history for us, How are you feeling coming into your new normal in this new country. Um. Yeah, in the midst of this, I think it's it's holding a lot, really, you know, like it's it's it's holding grief, it's holding excitement, it's holding space. Um. But I you know, it's hard to get so excited where so many things are still happening all around the world, and you know, we're now seeing things happening in India and Colombia, We're seeing you know, ongoing police brutality, and it just sometimes feels like it's so much, you know, it's so much. And then I just realized, like this is just life, Like life has always being inherently unstable, and it's always being full of ups and downs and pain and sorrow. And we have this saying in Buddhism that life contains ten thou joys and ten thous sorrows, and the very much feels like that, you know, like I am also holding space for new things and for love and for um compassion and for friendship, which is all really beautiful and and I also know on the other side of that is the opposite. I really love that you anchor the conversation and that to start, because I would really love to speak to that I've been observing even within myself. UM, and this is I mean, this is actually something I've observed my whole life about me that I think I used to think was just something I experience, but now I'm knowing and learning that it's actually by design for the human experience. UM. But that I exist in a space where seven things are beautiful and terrifying all at once, you know, and sitting even with that grief and I've shared on the show before, UM, I think I get paid a picture for how grief exists inside of me because I'm I'm equal parts kind of exuberance, radiance, peace, and grief all the time. And a lot of that is from losing a lot of people to violence in my life, and um, you know, all the things, all the things, but it's kind of I experienced it like this, like with my son right he um, he turns three actually tomorrow he I grieve him every day because he becomes a new person. But every single day I'm also like enthralled and inspired with all the facets of police becoming And both happened at the exact same time for me. Yeah, And you set it right there in that last paragraph where we're grieving and we're grieving moments that we didn't know grief, right Like it was a year in which we were grieving possibilities. Like we're grieving relationships, we're grieving um friendships, we're grieving the ability to go to the gym, We're grieving what what might have been. And this has obviously been more profound for for many of us, but I think we're still living with the remnants of that in our bodies. And just because we've got the vaccine and life seems to go back to normal. It doesn't mean the trauma of the grief has left us, So now is the work. It's like, you know, my daughter's in Australia and I spoke to her recently and she's having a lot of social anxiety. It's like, I don't know how to return to the world, especially if you're locked up indoors for twenty three hours a day for seven months, Like, how do you then go from that to just life is normal and you know, everything is back to normal where it's not for many of us. And I think we'll start to understand that over the next few months and years and maybe even lifetimes what we have just experienced. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think for me, my intention is really to keep my life closer to what my pandemic life look like than actually trying to get back to what it was before, right, right, And it's it's it's so profound to we even say that my view on the world, which is what you're saying, has changed. And I kind of like this and that's okay too, right, because it gave us, like I said, ten thousand joys, ten thousand sorrows and lessons and also trauma and I think part of our work as meditators is the whole space for all of these things, not just positivity and not just happiness, but also everything else that surrounds that, because I believe that's how wisdom grows, and as wisdom grows, compassion grows. And I want to move through my life through with those two things, like wisdom and compassion, and I know if I can, then I can face anything that comes my way. Mmmm, that's so beautiful. Can you share with me some of your Buddhist lineage? How did you find that particular path and why did it speak to you? Well, first of all, I don't think I necessarily picked it, but I was born into it. My family was. I was raised in Sho Lunka, and from a very young age, monks were in our house. We were doing ceremonies, and Shi Lunka itself is a very deeply Buddhist and spiritual place, and I wasn't necessarily drawn to their teachings from a young age, but there was just a fascination around their aura and their energy. They were always laughing, they were always calm. They had funny faces with bald heads, and my dad told me the story, you know, when I was in my late teens that he from a very young age, I was drawn to them and drawn to the practice because I would see them walking on the sides of the roads, and whenever I would see them, I would get up from the car, like when I was seated, I put my hands together like in a prayer position, and I would bow. And he used to get really scared, because usually what that means if a child does that from a young age, is that he wants to become a monk. He wants to take robes, and he wants to go down that path. So he used to joke around saying he used to get my mom to hide him. He's like, make sure he doesn't see, like you know, these months and it's ironic, you know, Like thirty odd years later, here I am being in a meditation teacher. But there was always a fascination with what existed beyond me. And I didn't know if that was God, I didn't know if that was consciousness. I didn't know what it really meant. But I knew that there was something bigger than me that existed in the world. At least I believe that, even if I didn't know it. But you know, when we migrated to Australia, I really lost a lot of that because the culture was very different. Um. And then, you know, I had a pretty normal upbringing. I mean I would say normal upbringing, but I had an upbringing. And I started working and one day I was in marketing and advertising. One day I had a pretty serious and big panic attack. And that was like the catalyst for everything in my life. I went to different doctors and psychologists and healers and just tried to get well and tried to get better because at that point I developed an eating disorder. It was really anxious. I had depression. UM, I was misdiagnosed with a d h D and eventually ended up developed developing an addiction to prescription medication. And so I was in a really bad place. And every doctor I was seeing, a psychologist I was seeing, we're just giving me different opinions. You know. One it said it's just anxiety or it's just stress. One said it's a d h D. And another one it's like, no, it's depression, and take this medication and take this medication. Eventually, I was just like, intuitively, I had a feeling that I don't think it is like there's something else that was going on for me. And I'm sure all of that was part of my my suffering at the time, no doubt, But I just wasn't drawn to the medication. And I don't have anything against medication. I think it's really impotent and powerful and needed from time to time. But for me, I had a feeling that I just needed to just go somewhere. And I didn't go anywhere, but randomly I found myself one day in a yoga studio and this yoga teacher turned out to be a Buddhist meditation teacher, and and that very first class, he said that you are not your suffering, and you are you are not your thoughts. And that was a very profound moment for me, because, um, first of all, I started to notice my thoughts in that moment. I started to notice all the negative thoughts like you're you're useless, You're never going to get better again, Um, you're worthless, like your how are you going to look after your daughter? What are you going to have for lunch? And I always weird thoughts running through my mind. And then I noticed myself observing those thoughts. And then when he said that you're not you're suffering. I'm like, well, maybe I can observe my suffering the same way I can observe my thoughts. And you know that very first class, something began to click and I slept better than I ever had before. And I came back the next day, the next day, and the next day, and I ended up studying with him every day for five years. And I legitimately thought at one point, you know, was going to take rooms in and was going to be a monk, but decided against it. And I started teaching only because he asked me to teach one day, and the rest is kind of history. I guess, wow, wow, So there's a lot I want to dive into their um. First things first, because you took me on an epic journey. Just now, First things first, I think, you know, it's so interesting. So you were raised, you were raised Buddhist, and so that was your foundation. And I hope I'm going to be able to unravel this in the way that it's coming together in my mind. But I'm not someone that was ever raised with any religions or beliefs, right, um, not at all. I was aware of Christianity, I was aware of Catholicism. Um. I was born and raised in l A and so even though there wasn't like a back in the eighties, a robust meditation community, I was always seeing Buddhas everywhere, and I was always seeing different beliefs that play in different cultures. Um. So I was always profoundly, deeply intrigued by these cultural systems and by beliefs. UM. But my journey, I really found it because I was just in such deep longing for God um. And that's the resounding feeling I remember always feeling. It was this nine desire to know God more deeply um, and trying to find the pathways there. But you know, it's interesting because even though you Buddhism is such a gorgeous, such a gorgeous path, and you were raised with it, and you were raised with the knowledge of how to utilize it. Yet isn't it so interesting how even when we strive to raise our children in certain ways with these structures and beliefs kind of as humanity, we still find ourselves at the crossroad where we have to choose something for ourselves. And you ended up choosing the lineage that you actually was already so deep in your heart but it was still a very specific choice you made, and so even the system of belief that you were raised with, there was a moment where you received it more deeply, applied it potentially in new ways, and then cured yourself of your suffering. Um. So I would just love any thoughts or observations on that. Yeah, And so maybe I'll start at the end where I don't think I've cured myself from my suffering. I've learned how to relate to my suffering differently. And I think that's an important distinction, because we can think that meditation and spirituality can cure us of our ailments, and that's actually a way of bypassing the experience of itself. Right. You know, I still get anxious from time to time. I'm still neurotic from time to time. I get very angry often, you know, I'll binge ee, you know, I'll crave cigarettes. Like. All of that is is still very much in my experience, but now related to I've learned how to relate to my suffering and my thoughts around the suffering a lot a lot more differently. But I think also what's really interesting is I was although I was raised around Buddhism. Buddhism and Sri Lanka is more focused on the practice of it, so more around the worship, more around generosity and cultivation of generosity. There was no impetus to practice meditation like that just isn't part of the culture in a lot of Asian countries. Actually, But I think what you said is really true is that there's a crossroads in our life and we were each presented with with moments you know that they're defining moments in our life, and for me it was a divine or defining I'm not sure how to separate the two. It was a moment when someone was saying something very practical to me and it wasn't shrouded in Buddhism at all. Actually, he was like, hey, life contains suffering and I was like, sh yeah, it does. Like no one's ever said that to me like that before. And then it was like, you're suffering isn't personal, And I'm like wow, because you know, when we're going through something, it's like I am anxious, I am suffering, I am lonely, I am the victim. And that might be true, but then you realize so all of us, right, we're all traumatized to some extent. We're all going to experience this at some point in our life and that creates a separation. And that for me was just someone saying something very practical. I didn't decide at that moment I'm going to reconnect to Buddhism. It was much later on where I just studied with various teachers and it made so much sense to me. And that's really what I take from these teachings that it just makes a lot of sense, and it's it doesn't require me to give up any other belief. It doesn't require me to take on this as being true and everything is being false. It's like this is just a recipe for how to navigate my mind and my life. And that just felt very, very serendipitous to me. I love that so much. UM. I still relate to that, and it changes the perspective of how we approach any and everything, you know, it puts us more instead of these like passive participants, we become active participants in our lives, are co creators, you know. I think UM meditation for me really expanded my knowingness of the choice, the power of choice that I hold UM and my ability to pivot whenever the hell I want to, you know, like your ability to just pick and choose what is for me and not take things I don't even take my own criticisms of myself personally, you know. And really it's the beauty of mindfulness, right, It gives us, It gives us, uh, that gap, that space between a stimulus and a response. And I think what you're talking about is just your wisdom in knowing that, over the years of your own practice, you've created these moments of gaps between stimulus and response, and you get to choose wisely at that moment. You know, you get to choose something that leads towards happiness and away from suffering. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You have a book that is coming. Um may to be exact, your book Still Together will be hitting shelves. It's available for preorder now. Everybody listening, so please go on this page, going Amazon, go to wherever you connect with your books. Um. Still Together is a title, and I know you know the background on the book. It takes an active approach to reclaiming true and deep connection in our day to day lives, looking at the feelings associated with disconnection. This guide presents steps through meditation and mindfulness practices to address these feelings. Oh the world needs this. Yeah, I mean the irony of writing a book about connection when I'm disconnected just wasn't It wasn't lost on me, you know, and speak to that. Yeah. I mean. So, I don't know if I've said this to you personally before, but I signed the book deal in and as you probably know, I'm very unorganized. So I signed it and I'm like, Okay, I'll have some time to write it. And literally seven months I didn't touch it. I'm just living my best life. I was in New York City. I was like, just life is great. And then around January and of January my publishers like, hey, like, can you what's happening with the manuscript that you're going to get it through to us? And I'm like, I'm going to start it as soon as I get back to Australia, which was the next week. And I just got back to Australia and that's when COVID like really spread into Australia and the US and we went into lockdown and so we were only allowed out for one hour a day. Uh And for seven months I was living by myself and then all of a sudden, I was like, I've got to write a book about connection when I'm disconnected with one, and it really helped me. But it also it also really inspired me to practice what I was writing, you know, because it wasn't just I was writing it to sell a book. It was like, I'm writing this to actually kill myself, and you know, it just took on a life of its own, to be really honest with you, and a lot of the book explores the way that, you know, in modern life, we disconnect, you know, we disconnect from each other, We disconnect from our bodies, and when our bodies are feeling and we disconnect from the present moment, and that has consequences and ramifications. And then it's it's a call to arms too to reconnect, especially to reconnect with people that we don't agree with or we don't think that we have anything in common with. And it's also a call to arms to reconnect with our bodies, because we tend to as a culture, focus a lot on the mind, you know, our mind, like where it was so obsessed with happiness and productivity and focus and achieving. We completely disconnect from the neck down and from the feeling, from the intuition, from the sense of coming home. And we realize in a year like one matraumatized, the healing begins in the body. It doesn't begin in the mind, because we can tell ourselves, yes, life is going back to normal, but really the body hasn't caught up yet. And for me, that's where I've had to do a lot of the work with my trauma is to create space for compassion to to exist for for the pain. M Yeah, yeah, I think so many people listening to this show especially can really relate to that. A conversation that we have quite a bit here is reconnecting to your body and also um understanding what has kept us separate because you know, I think, especially here, like sometimes our disconnection from our body is one million percent rooted in trauma. But then also you know, for a lot of us here in America, when you live in this system of structural, systemic oppression since the dawn of society here, you know, when you are anything other than white, you have never felt safe in your body. Potentially, you know, and you take on this against us of always imagining that it's you or something wrong with you, And I think it hits every facet like um, there's so many conversations happening around this of even being performative with our bodies in so many different ways, from athleticism to even the way we experience sex, like it just being performance, or even noticing that you're not presently in yourself even when you are in movement and flow with your body. Um. And it's such as someone who has come back into their body, and that's been a huge, huge challenging part of my work with my own journey. Can you speak to what it feels like to be in your body the way that I've been experiencing it. It's just like it is just it's a safety I never knew I had access to. It is a stability and a piece I never even knew was an option until I felt it. You know, I felt the essence of what you just said. I felt that in my body and just how you said it, And that really speaks to it. You know, like when you are in your body, you're communicating on a whole different level and you're receiving on a whole different level, but you're also safe to be yourself. And I think for black and brown for here, but also probably throughout the world. It doesn't feel safe to be ourselves. You know, we are constantly comparing ourselves to culture and what culture tells us we have to look like, and how culture tells us we have to present ourselves, and how culture tones our emotions and our feelings, and so being in our body is a strength and it's a courage, but it's also a deep love we have for ourselves because we can respect ourselves and us to stay in it, you know, and we'll never abandon ourselves. I think that is the most profound lesson I've learned that when I am not in my body, my body, I am abandoning myself in thought, in my deed, or in my action, I am abandoning myself. And I think about what it would be like to abandon my daughter, and it just breaks my heart and it just breaks my and I'm like, I do that to myself so much. I do that to myself so much. And if there is someone with a big personality and a big energy and then I shrink and I change how I speak or change how I show up, I'm abandoning myself if someone makes me angry and I don't express that in a healthy way. I abandoned myself when I'm presented with love and I can't receive that love, I'm abandoning myself. And we all, I think we'll have different variations of this, But the greatest work of our time, I think, is to remember that we are whole and we are complete, and despite what the world tells us, hold that thought. We are coming right back. You know that is the work, right because I find you know, and I probably say this every episode, So apologies listeners if you're tired of hearing this, but um, you know it, there's so many conversations happening about mental health, so many conversations happening about mindfulness. Um, and they're expansive, and there's so many facets, Like it's such a it's such a vast umbrella with so many different lanes underneath it and and so many different pathways. But the work is really rooted in that experience of oneself, in the fullness of that, So really understanding that like on Earth as souls, right, I think we've all kind of established that baseline of were spiritual beings having a human experience. So shout out to our humanity here on earth, you know, as as we're kind of steeped in that it's utilizing the gifts and the best assets. Like our body is actually our technology, right, like just the way you know, a computer we view as a technology and and the piece to get the things done that we need, whether that's connection or work. As a human being, our body is our technology, and so really understanding how to be with it and utilize it for your highest good as part of what this experience is meant to be. I'm curious, you know, as we kind of talk about that, um, just to reflect back to how we started this piece of the conversation, Like in this leg of my journey, I'm even noticing, you know, this is my soul's house. This this this bag of bones that I'm in, this is my soul's house. And so part of my healing now has really just been and honoring that, and so you know, really creating ritual around that, really knowing how to be with myself and you know, as as as a man, I'm curious of what that feels like for you, because I think for women were encouraged right to be with our bodies, or we're encouraged to be sometimes very hyper aware of our body these whether that is, you know, from an aesthetic standpoint sexually, but our bodies are always at the forefront of our mind um and the forefront of everyone else's mind all the time, right, And so even in reclaiming that, that's been so powerful because so many women and girls are trained to look at their bodies um, just in the way it's received by the people viewing them outside of ourselves. So that reclamation um, sometimes that really looks like even relearning how you want to move or what is maybe perceived performative femininity versus the deepest part of how you internally want to express with your essences. So I'm curious how that feels for you or or how you have observed that, either in yourself or with all of the men that you really help heal. I want to take a moment to see how that land, because you just dropped some gems right there, um, you know with Really it's so wonderful to speak to anyone that's fully embodied. And I think whenever we speak, I feel that you know from you like you you feel this in your bones, and it's not performative and it doesn't come from the head. It comes from the body. I think as men were not trained how to be in our body. We're so trained to think our way through things, you know, and that's why we cause the majority of the harm in this world. It's because we're so cognized. We think from the head. We don't think from the body, and we're not We're not allowed to feel anger, We're not allowed to feel softness, we're not allowed to feel compassion. We don't know this because many of us aren't given that opportunity in our childhood. You know, we don't have the best role models. And I think our work is as men is not to throw out this idea of masculine because yes, there's toxic masculinity and all of that, and I don't disagree with that, but I think it's to evolve, and it's to also recognize the harm that we cause to ourselves and when we do that, we cause to everyone else around us. Right, And a lot of the work I've done with men around the world is to invite them to stay in the body when things get uncomfortable, you know, and and to be able to acknowledge that and to be able to use the rage that's coming up, because you know, rage isn't bad. Like I grew up with a very very angry father and he yelled and he you know, he used to spank me and my my bro and you know, I love him to death. He's like an amazing father, but you know I experienced that, and now in my relationship, any time my anger comes up, I'm like, well, bad, get that. Get make sure that's under control. Don't be your dad. And even of the intention is pure, the the output can be quite harmful to ourselves. Because anger isn't bad. Anger is a message, right, Anger is it telling you something. But the work is to create space for that and then to use that anger in a way that doesn't harm others. Right. And that's where men have to really begin to re learn our relationship to emotion and to feeling and to hold space for each other. You know, I think that's something that's been really profound for me. I joined a men's group, started a men's group in two seventeen um, and we just spoke about our feelings. And the first, the first few times we did that, it was like weird. And but then he realized, like, Okay, here is another man watching this other guy completely breakdown in tears, and he's not going over to him. He's not saying it's okay, it's all right, just cheer up. He's just silent, and he's just holding space for another man to feel these feelings. And UM, I have personally very very grateful for experiences like that, And I think there's a lot of deep work we need to do as men, for sure, to to reclaim ourselves and to reclaim our bodies and to honor the women in our life. Mm hmm, thank you for saying that. Yeah, sometimes it feels like, you know, and this might be really rooted in my human experience, but sometimes it does feel like as we're all diligently doing the work, we can still UM only raise our collective consciousness as high as men's healing will allow, you know. And I think women were naturally for many of us. Even if even if we don't you know, UM in this incarnation are not able to become fully embodied and expressed. Our training is and NURTURANCEUM our training is in at least some level of transparency and openness. We are. We're even UM pretty enthusiastically guided to start gossiping really young, constantly talking about shared experience or opinions or thoughts or how we're experiencing ourselves. Um, and that that is an extended to men there on the complete other end of the spectrum, where it's like suppress, suppress all the feelings all the time. Don't even be extra happy when you feel happy, and definitely don't um, don't express when you're feeling sad, discomfort, excuse me, disappointed or shamed. How how does a man begin his relationship of settling into his body like in a moment where that sacred rage or that anger is coming up? How how can someone begin to shift into that role of observer and just being with themselves and that being enough with tenderness. I don't know if there's any other way like it's it's with tenderness. It's like that recognizing that this is hard for all of us. We're all traumatized, like we're all we're all in pain to some degree, even if we don't know it, and if we don't know what it means, we're in more pain that we then we actually you are aware of and we have to be gentle with ourselves. We have to be curious with ourselves. We have to reach our for help. You know, I think the combination of meditation and therapy for me is being a game changer. It's genuinely changed my life and in terms changed my relationships, you know. And I couldn't have done that alone with meditation, and I couldn't have done that alone just with with therapy. I think friendship is also a mirror as well, you know, having men around me that can speak about what they're feeling and they aren't afraid to hold me accountable to a higher standard or a higher version of myself, that is being tremendously helpful. And then also like recognizing that women are such a what women are such wonderful teachers, like they genuinely they genuinely are. And I look at my mom and you know, I've got to love relationship with my mom. Wonderful woman and the amazing woman that Over the years, you realize how your parents have traumatized you in different ways. But then you you remember how much they had to hold right, they had to hold They had to hold their sons, they had to hold their husbands, they had to hold culture, they had to hold the patriarchy, and on top of that, they had to you know, look good and be skinny and you know, put on makeup and do all of this, and if you can reflect on that, you realize that there's just a natural empathy that just grows, like genuinely, Like when I look at my mom now, I'm just like, wow, Mom, Like you just did the best that you could. That holy Holy Moly held so much right. And I think just remembering our humanity and moments like that and remembering um suffering of another naturally softens you. It naturally softens you. That was beautiful. Yeah, I think all of us needed to hear that as that reminder, you know, especially especially those of us that connected to the lifelong path of doing the work, because I do think that sometimes we get a little bit, uh, we're really feeling ourselves right as we're healing, and we get that, we get this kind of momentum going and it's just like, yeah, look at me, like slaying these dragons, meeting these monsters. I'm so strong, I'm healing my lineage, breaking through ancestral trauma. And you know, it's like we're giving ourselves these pat on the backs, which we're deserving of because the work is work, um, and it takes, it takes it a man. It's amount of courage to face yourself. But our collective consciousness has risen to a point where it's also allowed us space to do that in a way that other generations didn't have. And so extending that grace that you just really beautifully shared to your mother, and and specifically in recognizing the fact that there were so many facets of things that she had to hold, and there were so many, um potentially layers of against us that she held for herself from all the views of society on top of her own spiritual curriculum. And so to acknowledge that it is so powerful, and I think so many of us, you know, it's it's a constant ebiflow of making peace with that, you know, because yeah, so beautifully said Debby, And you know this is you talked about collective consciousness. And I think the way it is going to continue to rise is to recognize that each of us is a byproduct of causes and conditions like we we really are. Like if if you know, if I was born in in in l A, I would have had a very different experience by the nature of how I look compared to if I was born in Sri Lanka. My parents if they weren't immigrants, would have a very different effect on me if they stayed in Sri Lanka, right, and each of us we can't we can't always choose the conditions that were raised in or that we experience. And if we can see that this is my work. I know with the people that I disagree with, the people that have the complete opposite opinion about me on any level, if I can understand, like they are not a bad person, they are just a byproduct of the causes and conditions that they experienced, there's healing in that moment. There's the space for understanding. And I genuinely think only understanding will heal our society. It's understanding and empathy. And if I can sit in front of someone and feel their pain and here they're suffering and they have the complete different opinion to me, like there is a moment there of connection because at that moment, me and this person are bondering, bonding under the fact that we both suffer, and there is common ground right at that moment and with common ground like we heal mm hmm mm hmm. That's so good. There was so much there that was Yeah, let's play this back a few times, everyone and take a few notes. Um, specifically, when you said each of us is a product of causes and conditions. Wow, yeah, I'm a I'm a journal to that. Later, Um, could you tell me a little bit more about your book Still Together that is in stores available for preorder. Now, you know, speaking to this connection specifically, you're exploring ways in this book that we feel detachment from our lives, our goals, and our friendships and how to begin to reclaim ourselves through human connection. Why is the human connection such a necessary tool and how do you explore that in this book? Well, in my in my research, I really explored Maslin's hierarchy of needs, right. I looked at that and you know, friendships and social circles, it's it's up near the top of the pyramid. And I make a case that I think this is as important as food and water. And the reason I say that is because, Okay, we might not die if we don't see a friend for a month's time, you know, but I think we have we suffer psychologically in that in that moment the ability to as as as infants, to have a parent that mirrors your emotions and your needs really changes the course of your life. Right, that's connection right there. And as adults, the ability to have friends that do the exact same thing, or a support system and do the exact same thing can heal you. And I'm not talking about the kind of friendship where everyone is giving you their opinion of how you should do this and how you should do that. We need those friends too, But I think human connection is the foundation to our happiness. I don't think it's possible to be truly happy without that, right, And so many connections, I'll speak for myself, um, aren't authentic. You know that they're sometimes relationships or connections of convenience. Um, And that's okay too. Like a lot of my high school friends, we catch up every now and again, and it's fun and it's easy and it's simple. But I don't have those heart to heart moments with them, right, I don't have those experiences where I am genuinely getting a sense of this person's heart at that moment. And I think that's a as a byproduct of social conditioning, Like we we aren't trained to do that. We don't slow our mind enough to be present with someone and so um, yeah, I mean this. This book leverages mindfulness philosophy, Buddhist psychology. It looks at some research around connection and you know, our attachments to things like money, and our attachments to our mobile phone and technology at large. And it doesn't actually tell you don't do this, because I don't believe in binaries like that. It's more an invitation to consider the impact this is having in your life. And if it's having it's having no impact at all, then that's great, then life is good for you. Um, keep doing what you're doing. But it's also an invitation to big curious if they if you ever feel like there's something missing in your life, and that's an invitation to explore what connection means to you. So something just came up for me, actually, and what you said that that is really beautiful to savor. Um, what I'm hearing and what you're saying about connection is also it's so necessary for us because that is how we also experience ourselves. We can learn who we are and make the pivots or make the refinements really based on that mirroring and that reflection from another person. And what's what's really beautiful about that to me is there's a book called Conversations with God of referenced on the show I Love Love that book. But something that really struck me that I had always thought my whole life but I didn't have language for was in the book. Um. The author is channeling with God and asks, you know, why why do we exist? Why did why did you even create human beings? And in the book, God responds by saying, Um, I longed to experience myself and what I'm hearing in even the beauty, and I don't even think I had. You know, I've always been aware of the beautiful, reflective, mirrored nature of relationship. But I think this really just anchored for me the deeper understanding of how necessary connection and community is because it is also what allows us to experience our own selves. Yeah. You know, the Buddha has um three jewels that he talks about that we take refuge in, and you know this is sometimes in in Asian countries represented by an umbrella, because we take refuge under an umbrella when it's raining. I've got a tattoo of my arm which has it like an umbrella, and we take refuge in three things. The Buddha Damasanga and that that essentially represents the is someone's ability to awaken, just like the Buddha did, someone's ability to overcome suffering. The Dama represents the way things are like so a set of teachings that guide us throughout our life. And the sun girl represents the community and just this teaching on a refuge, like we can take refuge in our friends and our community when times are hard. We can take refuge in God or spirituality or consciousness or any belief system when times are hard, and we can take refuge in the understanding that we will one day overcome. That has just been so profound and I have, for the longest time have been teaching that meditation isn't going to save your life. Meditation won't fix all of your problems. It's a combination of things. And a good diet is one. Having friends in the community is another one, you know, and having a therapist is also another one. Like all of these these things are so vital, but we don't live in a vacuum and we have to constantly interact with people, and so having a community and having a suner or friends that you trust um is vital for our spiritual well being. Mm hmm. I received. Yeah, yes, well, so I take back what I said at the top of this interview about wanting to now be isolated all the time, even in the new normal. I think, really, it's it's the shift of I'm only available for the deepest relationships, that's all I'm available for. Actually, yeah, no, it's it's it's profound and you know, I consider you like we have. This saying in Buddhism is called kalian a kalian amita mean spiritual friend. Um. A spiritual friend is someone that you can have conversations like we always tend to have when way together. And I can see to you that and there's something really healing from me and knowing that I have a friend like you that can explore these topics with you, know that we can we can geek out on this house and ours and ours and not have an answer, but just debate them, debate them, and and there's something really wonderful about that because we we sacrifice our spiritual well being in one life. And spirituality can mean anything to you, like it doesn't really, I don't really care what it means to you, But we sacrifice that because we disconnect from the bodies and our spirit is in the body, that spirit isn't in the mind. Thank you, Thank you so much for that, and I reflect that right back to you. We definitely our sole family. And you know, you know what's so amazing Minos in hearing you say that, I'll just this is the craving I have in my life right now for the people in my life is I just want to be like with people like you someplace and we're just quiet together to write like, I just I want to experience the people that I feel connected to in ways that are so far removed from the societal constructs of how we are meant to look at friendship or relationship, you know, like, can we just go sit somewhere and be quiet at the same time and that be enough and and find other ways to communicate with one another? You know what, what are you sensing in your body? What are you feeling? Can we just appreciate the what is in the moment and allow nature and all the outside influences to kind of inform the experience, Like I am craving that, I'm craving silence with people I care for. I'm craving, Um, I'm just craving relating to people in a way that are so fully deprogrammed from the lens that was thrust upon each of us being on earth and being in a society. Watch out, your DEVI and I are going to be running in a retreat very soon. The sounds like a retreat idea, you know. I think for me, it's not even that they have d programmed. It's that they have a desire to explore, you know, because I definitely don't think I've awakened or I've enlightened. I definitely have the desire to do that, you know for sure. And I think that desire is a healthy desire and having friends along the path makes it joyful, right because otherwise it's like real morbid sometimes sitting with your mind and noticing up all your trauma. I'm like, this is like boring, like but then you have a group of friends around you that that you can joke about it with and you can you can support you on the path. And you know, a yoga studio can act like this, and meditation studio can be that, an act can be like that, whatever it is. For whoever's listening to this, UM, I invite you to find your people. Yeah, just find your people and then hold them tight. M I love that. Find your tribe and also don't have any attachment to what that's supposed to look like, you know, like, really be open to the possibilities of who could show up in your life and whatever shape or form, and finding the ways that they can be. Um, you know, the synchronousities within which you guys were connected, and finding the beauty in it. But Nose, thank you for coming on the show. I am so grateful for your time always. I love I love chatting to you. We need to do this a lot more way more. Let's go be quiet together. Your books still together, everyone, make sure you grab that copy. And of course, um, how can everyone find you? How can they connect? Yeah? They can find me on open like I teach on their teach life classes, meditation classes. They can find me on the Instagram. They can find me on my website. I'm really bad at selling myself if you haven't picked that up. But if if whatever else said speaks to you, then I'm sure you'll find a way to to find me. Oh I love that. I love that. Yeah, follow him on Instagram. He also just did this really beautiful piece for Vogue magazine, So I really highly suggest everyone go check that out. At the end of every show, I love to ask the guests to provide a little soul work for the listeners, and so that can be either savored, thought journalinge, prompt, a quote that you love, but something that for those that feel called um, something that they can take away and spend some time with after this show ends. Being present doesn't mean feeling good mm hmm. And so that is more an invitation to consider when you are deeply present and it doesn't start to feel good, can you be okay with that? Wow? Mic drop wow that oh wow, Yeah, the way you phrase that love it. I will be spending time with that as well. Minos. I hope to see you soon. Thank you for coming to the show. Thank yeah. I love all the things that you do. Thank you, sister. I'll see you very very soon. Hey. Find me on social Let's connect at Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram, or go to my website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, please please please don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe and send this episode to a friend. Dropping Jims is the production of I Heart Radio and the Black Effect Network. It's produced by Triple and Me Debbie Brown. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.