Karl Vaters maintains that numbers are meant to inform us, not define us. Karl talks with Dawn and Steve about his book De-sizing the Church. 

Karl has spent over forty years as a small church pastor. He has a ministry called Helping Small Churches Thrive. Karl also writes books, hosts The Church Lobby podcast, and speaks at conferences. His heart is to help pastors of small churches (up to 90 percent of us) find the resources to lead well, and to capitalize on the unique advantages that come with pastoring a small church – something virtually every pastor will spend at least some of their ministry years doing. He believes that big and small churches can and should work together more often, to the benefit and blessing of everyone.