How do we confront challenges in an anti-Christian culture where Aaron Renn is with Dawn and Steve this hour to share how we can live with integrity as we follow Christ today, even in a negative world. If you've got a question for him, that number to call is 805 557898.

How do we confront challenges in an anti-Christian culture where Aaron Renn is with Dawn and Steve this hour to share how we can live with integrity as we follow Christ today, even in a negative world. If you've got a question for him, that number to call is 805 557898.

That negative world is anti-Christian, and we feel that as the church and Aaron, as you have done the research and put together this great resource, life in the negative world, where have we lost our salt and light, or is that the problem? Is it just that darkness is encroaching and our salt and light is is kind of being overtaken?

That negative world is anti-Christian, and we feel that as the church and Aaron, as you have done the research and put together this great resource, life in the negative world, where have we lost our salt and light, or is that the problem? Is it just that darkness is encroaching and our salt and light is is kind of being overtaken?

Well, it's this is a process that has been unfolding for decades, and some might even argue hundreds of years, a broad secularization narrative. But if you think about it, if you go back to the 1950s, we never had a state church like in Europe, but for most of our history we had a sort of default national religion that was sort of a generic Protestantism. So again, in the 50s, half of all adults went to church every Sunday. We had prayer and Bible reading in our public schools. We were adding, In God, we trust our money and under God to the pledge. It was a Christian normative society. Then in the 1960s, this started to become unraveled. Christianity started to go into decline in America, a decline that persists to the present day. And so I divide this period of decline from 1964 to the present into three eras, or worlds that I call the positive, the neutral, and the negative world. So the positive world is from 1964 to 1994. And the key is this is a period of decline. All is not going well for Christianity. It is a period of decline. And yet Christianity is still basically viewed positively to be known as a good church going man makes you seem like an upstanding member of society. Christian moral norms are still the basic moral norms of society. 1994 we had a tipping point where what I call the neutral world, where Christianity is not seen positively anymore. But it's not really viewed negatively yet either. It's just one more lifestyle choice among many in a sort of pluralistic public square. And, uh, Christian moral norms have a sort of residual force. But then in 2014, we had a second tipping point and enter what I call the negative world, where for the first time in the 400 year history of America, official elite culture now views Christianity negatively, or certainly at least skeptically. Maybe we could talk about that difference, if you'd like. Uh, to be known as a Bible believing Christian does not help you get a job on Wall Street or Silicon Valley. Quite the opposite. In fact, Christian moral norms are now expressly repudiated in a factor is somewhat viewed as the leading threat to the new public moral order. And this has been really dislocating, uh, to American, uh, evangelicals, uh, to say, say the least to I don't even think have quite figured out what it means to be salt and light in this world, yet we're still kind of figuring it out.

Well, it's this is a process that has been unfolding for decades, and some might even argue hundreds of years, a broad secularization narrative. But if you think about it, if you go back to the 1950s, we never had a state church like in Europe, but for most of our history we had a sort of default national religion that was sort of a generic Protestantism. So again, in the 50s, half of all adults went to church every Sunday. We had prayer and Bible reading in our public schools. We were adding, In God, we trust our money and under God to the pledge. It was a Christian normative society. Then in the 1960s, this started to become unraveled. Christianity started to go into decline in America, a decline that persists to the present day. And so I divide this period of decline from 1964 to the present into three eras, or worlds that I call the positive, the neutral, and the negative world. So the positive world is from 1964 to 1994. And the key is this is a period of decline. All is not going well for Christianity. It is a period of decline. And yet Christianity is still basically viewed positively to be known as a good church going man makes you seem like an upstanding member of society. Christian moral norms are still the basic moral norms of society. 1994 we had a tipping point where what I call the neutral world, where Christianity is not seen positively anymore. But it's not really viewed negatively yet either. It's just one more lifestyle choice among many in a sort of pluralistic public square. And, uh, Christian moral norms have a sort of residual force. But then in 2014, we had a second tipping point and enter what I call the negative world, where for the first time in the 400 year history of America, official elite culture now views Christianity negatively, or certainly at least skeptically. Maybe we could talk about that difference, if you'd like. Uh, to be known as a Bible believing Christian does not help you get a job on Wall Street or Silicon Valley. Quite the opposite. In fact, Christian moral norms are now expressly repudiated in a factor is somewhat viewed as the leading threat to the new public moral order. And this has been really dislocating, uh, to American, uh, evangelicals, uh, to say, say the least to I don't even think have quite figured out what it means to be salt and light in this world, yet we're still kind of figuring it out.

Yeah, well, I think a lot of us are still, as you say, trying to figure that out and also trying to say, man, what is it that made culture change and made things? Uh, you know, people look at us so negatively, so quickly, but I want to back up to, to 1994, you broke those out into, you know, specific years that you saw. There's a tipping point that happened right here. What was it about 1994, you think that said, that is a tipping point where we go from the positive end to the neutral.

Yeah, well, I think a lot of us are still, as you say, trying to figure that out and also trying to say, man, what is it that made culture change and made things? Uh, you know, people look at us so negatively, so quickly, but I want to back up to, to 1994, you broke those out into, you know, specific years that you saw. There's a tipping point that happened right here. What was it about 1994, you think that said, that is a tipping point where we go from the positive end to the neutral.

Yeah, well, I mean, these transition points are necessarily impressionistic a little bit. So we can have a debate over when it specifically happened with this one. I really think I have been having a debate with myself. Should I have picked 1989 because that was the fall of the Berlin Wall. And I really do believe the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Communist empire was a major event, uh, because it was an avowedly atheist materialist system, and Christianity was really bound up with the West's battle against communism. And that's why we're adding in God We Trust to our money in the 1950s, what's going on in the 1950s, the Cold War. And so as long as we had this Cold War, we couldn't really get rid of Christianity in America. But once the Cold War ended, that allowed essentially the leadership of the country to essentially unbundle Christianity from what it meant to be a, um, liberal Western democratic society. But I don't think that really fully hit. In 1989. I picked 94 for a few reasons one. It was the sort of Gingrich revolution in which Republicans took control of the House of Representatives for the first time and forever, and was the high watermark of the religious right influence in America, in my view. It was also the year Rudy Giuliani became mayor of New York. Crime collapsed in big cities, really came roaring back. And this really reshaped the cultural landscape of America and the church, as you now had this new demographic, rising demographic of highly educated, urban progressives that have been so influential in America. And this was really also the time at which baby boomers were really taking leadership in America. And I would even dial it in. It's not so much baby boomers as it is really the late, silent, early baby boomers, people born 1940 and 1955. This group of people has really been running America since about 19, you know, the early 1990s. And certainly Bill Clinton fell into that. And so did Newt Gingrich, who I think was born in 1942. He really fell into that category. It's new generations of leadership. So there's sort of a leadership change changeover in society. Um, we're seeing collapse of the Soviet Union. We're seeing the peak of religious right influence, and we're seeing the comeback of the cities. And, you know, put it all together. I think that's when the culture really started changing, really, when that sort of post-Cold War culture started to emerge in America.

Yeah, well, I mean, these transition points are necessarily impressionistic a little bit. So we can have a debate over when it specifically happened with this one. I really think I have been having a debate with myself. Should I have picked 1989 because that was the fall of the Berlin Wall. And I really do believe the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Communist empire was a major event, uh, because it was an avowedly atheist materialist system, and Christianity was really bound up with the West's battle against communism. And that's why we're adding in God We Trust to our money in the 1950s, what's going on in the 1950s, the Cold War. And so as long as we had this Cold War, we couldn't really get rid of Christianity in America. But once the Cold War ended, that allowed essentially the leadership of the country to essentially unbundle Christianity from what it meant to be a, um, liberal Western democratic society. But I don't think that really fully hit. In 1989. I picked 94 for a few reasons one. It was the sort of Gingrich revolution in which Republicans took control of the House of Representatives for the first time and forever, and was the high watermark of the religious right influence in America, in my view. It was also the year Rudy Giuliani became mayor of New York. Crime collapsed in big cities, really came roaring back. And this really reshaped the cultural landscape of America and the church, as you now had this new demographic, rising demographic of highly educated, urban progressives that have been so influential in America. And this was really also the time at which baby boomers were really taking leadership in America. And I would even dial it in. It's not so much baby boomers as it is really the late, silent, early baby boomers, people born 1940 and 1955. This group of people has really been running America since about 19, you know, the early 1990s. And certainly Bill Clinton fell into that. And so did Newt Gingrich, who I think was born in 1942. He really fell into that category. It's new generations of leadership. So there's sort of a leadership change changeover in society. Um, we're seeing collapse of the Soviet Union. We're seeing the peak of religious right influence, and we're seeing the comeback of the cities. And, you know, put it all together. I think that's when the culture really started changing, really, when that sort of post-Cold War culture started to emerge in America.

Mhm. Well, Erin Wren is with us this hour as we're talking about life in the negative world. It's about confronting the challenges of an anti-Christian culture. You know, where we are in that timeline has kind of brought us into that kind of neutral state. But yeah, there was another cultural shift. And now Christianity looking at is being looked at as a negative thing. And why is that the case? Well, we're going to get into that throughout the hour with Erin. He's a consultant. He's a writer, senior fellow at American Reformer. And if you want to join the conversation, feel free to text in This Morning at (800) 555-7898. Aaron Wren is with us. He's a consultant. He's a writer. He's written life in the Negative World. And as we've been talking about, how did we as a Christian, you know, community, kind of get to the point where we are viewed so negatively by so many. How did we get there? And, Erin, you've kind of broken out the timeline since the, you know, mid 1950s through where we are today, a positive time and a neutral time and a negative time. And that neutral fell between 1994 and 2014. Where was the church during that time? As we began to see that cultural shift that you were just talking about the fall of communism, the change of leadership in society, how did the church respond to that? Were we were we engaging well?

Mhm. Well, Erin Wren is with us this hour as we're talking about life in the negative world. It's about confronting the challenges of an anti-Christian culture. You know, where we are in that timeline has kind of brought us into that kind of neutral state. But yeah, there was another cultural shift. And now Christianity looking at is being looked at as a negative thing. And why is that the case? Well, we're going to get into that throughout the hour with Erin. He's a consultant. He's a writer, senior fellow at American Reformer. And if you want to join the conversation, feel free to text in This Morning at (800) 555-7898. Aaron Wren is with us. He's a consultant. He's a writer. He's written life in the Negative World. And as we've been talking about, how did we as a Christian, you know, community, kind of get to the point where we are viewed so negatively by so many. How did we get there? And, Erin, you've kind of broken out the timeline since the, you know, mid 1950s through where we are today, a positive time and a neutral time and a negative time. And that neutral fell between 1994 and 2014. Where was the church during that time? As we began to see that cultural shift that you were just talking about the fall of communism, the change of leadership in society, how did the church respond to that? Were we were we engaging well?

Yeah, well, it's interesting that time frame. Um, I see that a lot was going on in the church. The sort of emerging church conversation, uh, got going in there, I think was part of it. There was especially the rise of something that I call cultural engagement. I mean, one of the things I talk about in my book is the different response, evangelical response strategies to these different eras. And then and what I labeled the neutral world. There was the rise of this strategy called cultural engagement. And I think there are a couple of ways to think about, uh, cultural engagement. Um, one of them is like a seeker sensitivity for the cities, just as, you know, the the suburban megachurches reached a lot of the boomer suburbia that was going out there. These are people who are reaching the cities. And you think about people like Tim Keller at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City, who came in in a way that was able to speak to this more highly educated, culturally sophisticated, uh, audience. Another way to think of it as sort of the opposite of the culture war. You know, which is rather than fighting with people all the time, why don't we take advantage of this pluralistic public square and have a conversation with people? Uh, and, you know, let's articulate Christianity in a compelling way to them and maybe, uh, maybe they will be interested. And this was very successful. I mean, it wasn't just successful at getting The New York Times, you know, to like certain people, although it was effective at that. Um, you know, but, you know, churches like Redeemer in New York made hundreds of converts in the 90s. And in the 2000 it was very successful. So I do think we saw, um, you know, we did see, I think a little bit of the religious right sort of go into decline, although that's still obviously a huge, huge part of what's going on. But we did see people sort of, um, uh, emergence of these other strategies. Um, now as we've shifted into the negative world, some of those strategies themselves, um, have kind of run into Hit the Shoals, so to speak, because, you know, when you're kind of strategy is predicated on having a conversation with people in a pluralistic public square, and all of a sudden they don't want to talk to you anymore. And, you know, you know, it's like you hear plenty of secular people on the secular left who were not quite woke enough for certain people that they get called horrible names all the time, and they're not even remotely conservative people at all. So it's become quite, you know, even in the, you know, even in secular society, this has been quite a cultural upheaval that happened sometime during the Obama second term. But I think a lot of I do think, you know, things like the emerging church movement, things like, uh, the rise of kind of the neo Anabaptist and kind of the new monastics and the urban church movement. There were a lot of interesting things going on in this, as people try to find out ways to carry out the under the Great Commission in changing times. And that gives me some optimism for today. I mean, just because we are in a negative space, you know, that's very unusual for America, but not unusual for church history. Uh, not unusual about what's going on in the world today. And so I think there are plenty of opportunities to continue doing ministry today.

Yeah, well, it's interesting that time frame. Um, I see that a lot was going on in the church. The sort of emerging church conversation, uh, got going in there, I think was part of it. There was especially the rise of something that I call cultural engagement. I mean, one of the things I talk about in my book is the different response, evangelical response strategies to these different eras. And then and what I labeled the neutral world. There was the rise of this strategy called cultural engagement. And I think there are a couple of ways to think about, uh, cultural engagement. Um, one of them is like a seeker sensitivity for the cities, just as, you know, the the suburban megachurches reached a lot of the boomer suburbia that was going out there. These are people who are reaching the cities. And you think about people like Tim Keller at Redeemer Presbyterian Church in New York City, who came in in a way that was able to speak to this more highly educated, culturally sophisticated, uh, audience. Another way to think of it as sort of the opposite of the culture war. You know, which is rather than fighting with people all the time, why don't we take advantage of this pluralistic public square and have a conversation with people? Uh, and, you know, let's articulate Christianity in a compelling way to them and maybe, uh, maybe they will be interested. And this was very successful. I mean, it wasn't just successful at getting The New York Times, you know, to like certain people, although it was effective at that. Um, you know, but, you know, churches like Redeemer in New York made hundreds of converts in the 90s. And in the 2000 it was very successful. So I do think we saw, um, you know, we did see, I think a little bit of the religious right sort of go into decline, although that's still obviously a huge, huge part of what's going on. But we did see people sort of, um, uh, emergence of these other strategies. Um, now as we've shifted into the negative world, some of those strategies themselves, um, have kind of run into Hit the Shoals, so to speak, because, you know, when you're kind of strategy is predicated on having a conversation with people in a pluralistic public square, and all of a sudden they don't want to talk to you anymore. And, you know, you know, it's like you hear plenty of secular people on the secular left who were not quite woke enough for certain people that they get called horrible names all the time, and they're not even remotely conservative people at all. So it's become quite, you know, even in the, you know, even in secular society, this has been quite a cultural upheaval that happened sometime during the Obama second term. But I think a lot of I do think, you know, things like the emerging church movement, things like, uh, the rise of kind of the neo Anabaptist and kind of the new monastics and the urban church movement. There were a lot of interesting things going on in this, as people try to find out ways to carry out the under the Great Commission in changing times. And that gives me some optimism for today. I mean, just because we are in a negative space, you know, that's very unusual for America, but not unusual for church history. Uh, not unusual about what's going on in the world today. And so I think there are plenty of opportunities to continue doing ministry today.

Erin, as you talk about life in the negative world, where is it that you find the hope? What are you seeing as encouraging to you?

Erin, as you talk about life in the negative world, where is it that you find the hope? What are you seeing as encouraging to you?

Well, I mean, you know, when I originally came up with this idea, which is 2014, right about the transition point, I said, something's going to change here and here's what's going to happen. There is going to be like a the minute there's going to be more pressure on people, uh, for being a Christian where you have to, you know, not get persecuted. I don't like to use that language, but maybe you become unpopular. Maybe you take more of a social hit. There's going to be a big abandonment of the church. These people are just going. It's going to be like a blow out. People are going to leave. Well, that didn't happen. You know, I was wrong about that. Um, now, I do think there were some, some responses in the church. We could talk about that a little bit. But I think the reality is, by and large, yes, we've had deconstruction. Yes, we've had sort of a decline in faith, but there are still an amazing number of, you know, evangelicals in America basically adhering to traditional theology. And so, um, yeah, I think that's that's one there. And I also see, you know, the secular, the rise of secular influencers. This is actually how I got interested in writing on religious topics. I was writing mostly about public policy, and I saw so many young men a decade ago. This was before Jordan Peterson came on the scene. Even they're turning to influencers. They're not turning to the church. Why is that? Of course, now we can all see today so many people looking online for truth. And I think what that shows us is a lot of people are not getting the answers they're looking for in a life from the mainstream institutions of society. They're not getting it from the secular culture. They're looking for, for guidance. And they're turning to people like Jordan Peterson or whomever, Joe Rogan, Jocko Willink, you know, or, you know, some more infamous people like Andrew Tate, if you've heard of him. And I think that shows that if we can articulate Christianity in a compelling manner that speaks to those problems, I think there's lots of opportunities to do ministry because, you know, we've actually got the better answer and the correct answer to those things. So we need to we need to learn to, uh, to think about how we communicate it. I think in this era and.

Well, I mean, you know, when I originally came up with this idea, which is 2014, right about the transition point, I said, something's going to change here and here's what's going to happen. There is going to be like a the minute there's going to be more pressure on people, uh, for being a Christian where you have to, you know, not get persecuted. I don't like to use that language, but maybe you become unpopular. Maybe you take more of a social hit. There's going to be a big abandonment of the church. These people are just going. It's going to be like a blow out. People are going to leave. Well, that didn't happen. You know, I was wrong about that. Um, now, I do think there were some, some responses in the church. We could talk about that a little bit. But I think the reality is, by and large, yes, we've had deconstruction. Yes, we've had sort of a decline in faith, but there are still an amazing number of, you know, evangelicals in America basically adhering to traditional theology. And so, um, yeah, I think that's that's one there. And I also see, you know, the secular, the rise of secular influencers. This is actually how I got interested in writing on religious topics. I was writing mostly about public policy, and I saw so many young men a decade ago. This was before Jordan Peterson came on the scene. Even they're turning to influencers. They're not turning to the church. Why is that? Of course, now we can all see today so many people looking online for truth. And I think what that shows us is a lot of people are not getting the answers they're looking for in a life from the mainstream institutions of society. They're not getting it from the secular culture. They're looking for, for guidance. And they're turning to people like Jordan Peterson or whomever, Joe Rogan, Jocko Willink, you know, or, you know, some more infamous people like Andrew Tate, if you've heard of him. And I think that shows that if we can articulate Christianity in a compelling manner that speaks to those problems, I think there's lots of opportunities to do ministry because, you know, we've actually got the better answer and the correct answer to those things. So we need to we need to learn to, uh, to think about how we communicate it. I think in this era and.

Articulating our faith, being able to communicate is something if we're not able to do, maybe that's where we start to study up. And living personally as something. Aaron, you say we definitely need to be ready to engage with in life, in the negative world, confronting challenges in an anti-Christian culture. You feel the pressure, you feel the heat. Being a believer here in this time, well, the Lord has made no mistakes. He has put us here with purpose, and we're going to continue that conversation with Aaron and find out exactly personally what we need to know. And this is a great tool as well, putting the link on our Facebook page. Don and Steve in the morning life in the negative world. You feel it confronting challenges in an anti-Christian culture. Aaron Ren giving us great insight into the world in which we live, the shifts that have happened over time, and as we continue to think about next steps. Aaron, how do we live? Is it a church thing that we need to response? Is it a personal thing? Is it both?

Articulating our faith, being able to communicate is something if we're not able to do, maybe that's where we start to study up. And living personally as something. Aaron, you say we definitely need to be ready to engage with in life, in the negative world, confronting challenges in an anti-Christian culture. You feel the pressure, you feel the heat. Being a believer here in this time, well, the Lord has made no mistakes. He has put us here with purpose, and we're going to continue that conversation with Aaron and find out exactly personally what we need to know. And this is a great tool as well, putting the link on our Facebook page. Don and Steve in the morning life in the negative world. You feel it confronting challenges in an anti-Christian culture. Aaron Ren giving us great insight into the world in which we live, the shifts that have happened over time, and as we continue to think about next steps. Aaron, how do we live? Is it a church thing that we need to response? Is it a personal thing? Is it both?

I spent about three quarters of the book actually talking about, okay, how should we live in this negative world? And I give a sort of set of starter ideas across three areas the personal, the institutional and the emotional. So how should we live as individuals and families have set our churches, ministries, businesses, etc., uh, operate? And then how should we do mission? And I don't claim this is a detailed blueprint for exactly what you should do. It's to stimulate your thinking. Because I do think this is an unprecedented era. So if you go back to the 1970s when someone like Bill Hybels was starting the megachurch movement with Willow Creek Church in suburban Chicago, his origin story is that he went door to door in suburban Chicago asking people why they didn't go to church. And as he said, I got an earful. And he he designed a church people would actually attend. I don't think it's that simple today. That's like a typical business plan approach that someone like myself would do in consulting, where, you know, you do your market research and you find out where the existing players aren't meeting the market need and you design something there. I think we're moving into a more fundamentally unknown territory. So we need to adopt a posture of exploration, and we need to be much more comfortable walking by faith than by sight. We just don't know a lot of things, and it's a rapidly changing world. The example I like to give is the Israelites crossing the Jordan River into the Promised Land. You know, they'd spent their whole life in the wilderness, which had its downsides, obviously, but it was familiar. They knew it. And manna showed up every morning. You know, they this they had mastered that environment. Now they're going into this place they've never seen. And all they know is it's full of fearsome people who aren't going to give it up without a fight. And as they cross the Jordan, there's the, the line in the book of Joshua says, follow the ark, because you have not been this way before. And so if you think of the ark is like, you know, God's presence with his people, that's us. We need to be following Christ, and we need to just know that we're not going to be able to lean into our own understanding in this world. And so, um, you know, I do give ideas, uh, but it's also, um, you know, I think also just, you know, more humility, more dependence on Christ, again, more willingness to walk by faith than by sight. Are we are we able to be to walk in that uncertainty and unknown? Uh, I think that's going to be something we're going to have to do to a much greater extent than we we did in the past.

I spent about three quarters of the book actually talking about, okay, how should we live in this negative world? And I give a sort of set of starter ideas across three areas the personal, the institutional and the emotional. So how should we live as individuals and families have set our churches, ministries, businesses, etc., uh, operate? And then how should we do mission? And I don't claim this is a detailed blueprint for exactly what you should do. It's to stimulate your thinking. Because I do think this is an unprecedented era. So if you go back to the 1970s when someone like Bill Hybels was starting the megachurch movement with Willow Creek Church in suburban Chicago, his origin story is that he went door to door in suburban Chicago asking people why they didn't go to church. And as he said, I got an earful. And he he designed a church people would actually attend. I don't think it's that simple today. That's like a typical business plan approach that someone like myself would do in consulting, where, you know, you do your market research and you find out where the existing players aren't meeting the market need and you design something there. I think we're moving into a more fundamentally unknown territory. So we need to adopt a posture of exploration, and we need to be much more comfortable walking by faith than by sight. We just don't know a lot of things, and it's a rapidly changing world. The example I like to give is the Israelites crossing the Jordan River into the Promised Land. You know, they'd spent their whole life in the wilderness, which had its downsides, obviously, but it was familiar. They knew it. And manna showed up every morning. You know, they this they had mastered that environment. Now they're going into this place they've never seen. And all they know is it's full of fearsome people who aren't going to give it up without a fight. And as they cross the Jordan, there's the, the line in the book of Joshua says, follow the ark, because you have not been this way before. And so if you think of the ark is like, you know, God's presence with his people, that's us. We need to be following Christ, and we need to just know that we're not going to be able to lean into our own understanding in this world. And so, um, you know, I do give ideas, uh, but it's also, um, you know, I think also just, you know, more humility, more dependence on Christ, again, more willingness to walk by faith than by sight. Are we are we able to be to walk in that uncertainty and unknown? Uh, I think that's going to be something we're going to have to do to a much greater extent than we we did in the past.

Yeah. I love the challenge of that, of, uh, telling the church, all right, we need to really get back to how we should be living in the first place. I think there's that temptation of wanting to feel secure, wanting to be comfortable, wanting to think that we have some some semblance of control, that I can control the outcome if I understand what's going on right here. But living and walking out our faith is what we are truly called to do. So, Aaron, as you speak to the evangelical church of today, what do you think that looks like for the church to basically do? We have to. Repent in some way. Do we need to say, let's rip up and throw away the models of how we're doing church. What do you think we ought to be doing?

Yeah. I love the challenge of that, of, uh, telling the church, all right, we need to really get back to how we should be living in the first place. I think there's that temptation of wanting to feel secure, wanting to be comfortable, wanting to think that we have some some semblance of control, that I can control the outcome if I understand what's going on right here. But living and walking out our faith is what we are truly called to do. So, Aaron, as you speak to the evangelical church of today, what do you think that looks like for the church to basically do? We have to. Repent in some way. Do we need to say, let's rip up and throw away the models of how we're doing church. What do you think we ought to be doing?

Well, I. That's a big question. So one thing I would say is, uh, as we as we move into this negative world, we need to adjust to having the minority mindset again. Um, American Protestants have always had majority mindset because we lived in a Protestant country. And in fact, we do still have a demographic Protestant plurality in America, believe it or not. But we're now a minority. We're not a moral majority. We're a moral minority. And when you are a minority, then you have to think and act like minorities have always acted. That is to say, you need to self-consciously steward the health and strength and identity of your own community. You can't just rely on society to sort of basically reinforce your values in some way. We have to be thinking now, like Catholics did in the early 20th century, or like other minority religions think today. We need to think about, oh, right. How do we educate our children? How do we pass on our faith? Um, and all of that stuff not to go hide, but to have a strong base from which to do missions and to have a place to invite people into. And a lot of my thinking here is very inspired by kind of, you know, my own kind of readings of the New Testament. But you can think of a lot of different, a lot of different ways. We have always kind of thought, you know, the churches is great, and what we have to do is reach the lost. And of course, reaching the lost is important. But now we also need to worry about the church too and say, maybe, maybe we're not so great and maybe we need to be tougher in a more high pressure world.

Well, I. That's a big question. So one thing I would say is, uh, as we as we move into this negative world, we need to adjust to having the minority mindset again. Um, American Protestants have always had majority mindset because we lived in a Protestant country. And in fact, we do still have a demographic Protestant plurality in America, believe it or not. But we're now a minority. We're not a moral majority. We're a moral minority. And when you are a minority, then you have to think and act like minorities have always acted. That is to say, you need to self-consciously steward the health and strength and identity of your own community. You can't just rely on society to sort of basically reinforce your values in some way. We have to be thinking now, like Catholics did in the early 20th century, or like other minority religions think today. We need to think about, oh, right. How do we educate our children? How do we pass on our faith? Um, and all of that stuff not to go hide, but to have a strong base from which to do missions and to have a place to invite people into. And a lot of my thinking here is very inspired by kind of, you know, my own kind of readings of the New Testament. But you can think of a lot of different, a lot of different ways. We have always kind of thought, you know, the churches is great, and what we have to do is reach the lost. And of course, reaching the lost is important. But now we also need to worry about the church too and say, maybe, maybe we're not so great and maybe we need to be tougher in a more high pressure world.

Well, Erin Wren is with us, author of life in the Negative World Confronting Challenges in an anti-Christian culture. You brought up, uh, missions and being missional. And when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more about that. But right now, I want to encourage you to go check out Aaron's, uh, book and what he's up to. And so we've got everything linked through our Facebook page. If you want to connect there, head to Don Steve in the morning on Facebook, and you're going to find what you need right there. And we're talking with Aaron Renne. He is a senior fellow at American Reformer Consultant, a writer, author of life in the Negative World. And Aaron, as we've talked about how we have culture, looking at Christianity in a negative way, you say that's going to cause us to maybe to toughen up a little bit, to clarify our message, to communicate, well, what do you think it looks like for the church today to live missional?

Well, Erin Wren is with us, author of life in the Negative World Confronting Challenges in an anti-Christian culture. You brought up, uh, missions and being missional. And when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more about that. But right now, I want to encourage you to go check out Aaron's, uh, book and what he's up to. And so we've got everything linked through our Facebook page. If you want to connect there, head to Don Steve in the morning on Facebook, and you're going to find what you need right there. And we're talking with Aaron Renne. He is a senior fellow at American Reformer Consultant, a writer, author of life in the Negative World. And Aaron, as we've talked about how we have culture, looking at Christianity in a negative way, you say that's going to cause us to maybe to toughen up a little bit, to clarify our message, to communicate, well, what do you think it looks like for the church today to live missional?

Well, we can't give up on the Great Commission just because things get tough for us. There's always an outward directed part of the Christian faith. I come back to. I think it was Paul said something to the effect. I've always be ready to give it a, you know, a defense for the hope that is in you. So for one thing, people need to see that there's something in us. And so if we're that conform to the world, if there's nothing distinct, you know, there's a famous letter from the the emperor Julian the Apostate complaining that people like the church because they see that they care for the poor, that they see that they give each other good funerals and things of that nature is like, our people don't do that. We gotta we gotta get in the game. So I think that we really do need to have a distinctive community life. You know, we I think the church does an excellent job of serving those who are in need. And unfortunately, in our world, that's going to continue to be a great vector for mission with, you know, drugs, all the drug problems and and things of that nature, uh, definitely opens people to, to, to the receptivity to the gospel. But I also think, you know, we need to be living in a ways that are distinct from the world. You know, and I particularly think about, um, uh, family formation and things of that nature that are way down across the board and society. People are struggling to get married and stay married. And unfortunately, that's starting to infect a church. And so I think if people could just see that we have like healthy families and we stay married and, you know, things of that nature that myself, people go, well, what's going on there? Let's find out more about that. The other thing I think we need to do, though. Is, we need to understand that the world is different in that the old cultural Christianity is gone, and therefore we can not necessarily assume that people know anything about Christianity. You know, Billy Graham got to take advantage of the fact that the people he was preaching to mostly knew the Bible stories. They had a kind of basic understanding of Christianity. They probably believed in God. Latently understood that they should be in church. None of that's true today. I mean, kids today, they've heard of Jesus, probably, but they'd literally know nothing about the faith. And so in addition to just preaching the gospel, you also have to give people the basic categories of what it means to be a Christian. And, um, you know, there's that ad campaign for Jesus. He gets us, uh, that was in the Super Bowl last year and this year. And, you know, last year there was a lot of, uh, in 2003, there's a lot of controversy. But I said, look, um, you know, these people are getting at something important, whatever, whatever the problems of this campaign, which is the idea is people know anything about Jesus. And so trying to like intro Jesus is someone who can relate to our condition because he was made like, you know, human like us, uh, in his incarnation. You know, that that's like a valid thing to do and like, it's part of what we have to do to give people categories. What's going on. I, I think that he gets us kind of went off the rails and Super Bowl 24 a little bit, but in 23 I think is what I call pre evangelism is showing people like it's educating people in the sorts of things that cultural Christianity used to provide by default. And so it's going to be a little more, uh, it's not going to be quite like foreign missions, but it's going to be a situation where you can't basically assume people grew up in Sunday school and know the Bible stories. They may have never heard of any of this stuff. What is this Noah's flood thing? What's that? Never heard of it. And and so I think it's going to be a lot, a lot more challenging in that we're gonna have to we have to spend more time and invest more money in, in sort of those things. But I certainly think, you know, I would say the things I would hit is this, this need for pre evangelism, uh, living meaningfully, distinctly from the culture, um, you know, speaking clearly on truth and compelling ways. I mentioned earlier, the influencers, what we need to learn how to speak into the same, uh, human conditions that they're speaking into and then continuing to help the poor and the suffering. And, and I think that's those are all things that give us hope for ways to do mission in this world.

Well, we can't give up on the Great Commission just because things get tough for us. There's always an outward directed part of the Christian faith. I come back to. I think it was Paul said something to the effect. I've always be ready to give it a, you know, a defense for the hope that is in you. So for one thing, people need to see that there's something in us. And so if we're that conform to the world, if there's nothing distinct, you know, there's a famous letter from the the emperor Julian the Apostate complaining that people like the church because they see that they care for the poor, that they see that they give each other good funerals and things of that nature is like, our people don't do that. We gotta we gotta get in the game. So I think that we really do need to have a distinctive community life. You know, we I think the church does an excellent job of serving those who are in need. And unfortunately, in our world, that's going to continue to be a great vector for mission with, you know, drugs, all the drug problems and and things of that nature, uh, definitely opens people to, to, to the receptivity to the gospel. But I also think, you know, we need to be living in a ways that are distinct from the world. You know, and I particularly think about, um, uh, family formation and things of that nature that are way down across the board and society. People are struggling to get married and stay married. And unfortunately, that's starting to infect a church. And so I think if people could just see that we have like healthy families and we stay married and, you know, things of that nature that myself, people go, well, what's going on there? Let's find out more about that. The other thing I think we need to do, though. Is, we need to understand that the world is different in that the old cultural Christianity is gone, and therefore we can not necessarily assume that people know anything about Christianity. You know, Billy Graham got to take advantage of the fact that the people he was preaching to mostly knew the Bible stories. They had a kind of basic understanding of Christianity. They probably believed in God. Latently understood that they should be in church. None of that's true today. I mean, kids today, they've heard of Jesus, probably, but they'd literally know nothing about the faith. And so in addition to just preaching the gospel, you also have to give people the basic categories of what it means to be a Christian. And, um, you know, there's that ad campaign for Jesus. He gets us, uh, that was in the Super Bowl last year and this year. And, you know, last year there was a lot of, uh, in 2003, there's a lot of controversy. But I said, look, um, you know, these people are getting at something important, whatever, whatever the problems of this campaign, which is the idea is people know anything about Jesus. And so trying to like intro Jesus is someone who can relate to our condition because he was made like, you know, human like us, uh, in his incarnation. You know, that that's like a valid thing to do and like, it's part of what we have to do to give people categories. What's going on. I, I think that he gets us kind of went off the rails and Super Bowl 24 a little bit, but in 23 I think is what I call pre evangelism is showing people like it's educating people in the sorts of things that cultural Christianity used to provide by default. And so it's going to be a little more, uh, it's not going to be quite like foreign missions, but it's going to be a situation where you can't basically assume people grew up in Sunday school and know the Bible stories. They may have never heard of any of this stuff. What is this Noah's flood thing? What's that? Never heard of it. And and so I think it's going to be a lot, a lot more challenging in that we're gonna have to we have to spend more time and invest more money in, in sort of those things. But I certainly think, you know, I would say the things I would hit is this, this need for pre evangelism, uh, living meaningfully, distinctly from the culture, um, you know, speaking clearly on truth and compelling ways. I mentioned earlier, the influencers, what we need to learn how to speak into the same, uh, human conditions that they're speaking into and then continuing to help the poor and the suffering. And, and I think that's those are all things that give us hope for ways to do mission in this world.

Erin, as we look at just the last few seconds we have, is that going to require a refocus by the church, or do we just keep doing what we're doing?

Erin, as we look at just the last few seconds we have, is that going to require a refocus by the church, or do we just keep doing what we're doing?

I would say evolution more than revolution. Mm.

I would say evolution more than revolution. Mm.

Yeah. It's a challenge for us to think about our priorities and how we are impacting this world, because it's a negative world when it comes to the way it perceives Christianity, confronting challenges in an anti-Christian culture and in helping us think through what needs to be done. And hopefully we'll internalize that conversation and take it to heart, as well as get Ahold of this tool. We have put it on our Facebook page to connect you to Erin's work, as well as we'll always text you the link if you just let us know you want it. (800) 555-7898 Don and Steve in the morning.

Yeah. It's a challenge for us to think about our priorities and how we are impacting this world, because it's a negative world when it comes to the way it perceives Christianity, confronting challenges in an anti-Christian culture and in helping us think through what needs to be done. And hopefully we'll internalize that conversation and take it to heart, as well as get Ahold of this tool. We have put it on our Facebook page to connect you to Erin's work, as well as we'll always text you the link if you just let us know you want it. (800) 555-7898 Don and Steve in the morning.