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Leno Lanvo. Hoy. Did you know that the Earth has a mysterious invisible field protecting it?

Leno Lanvo. Hoy. Did you know that the Earth has a mysterious invisible field protecting it?

What do you mean, like a like a force field?

What do you mean, like a like a force field?

Yeah, basically it protects us from cognit rays and space weather and all sorts of crazy radiation.

Yeah, basically it protects us from cognit rays and space weather and all sorts of crazy radiation.

That's amazing. That's like a that's like Star Wars, right, like all the spaceships have a force field that protects it. How do we have this field?

That's amazing. That's like a that's like Star Wars, right, like all the spaceships have a force field that protects it. How do we have this field?

It's pretty amazing. It's the Earth's magnetic field. Actually, what is that? Suddenly? Less exciting for use? It less magnetic than a force field.

It's pretty amazing. It's the Earth's magnetic field. Actually, what is that? Suddenly? Less exciting for use? It less magnetic than a force field.

It's not very attractive unfortunately, No, I mean, what do you mean? It's it's just like the like the north pole in the South pole. Is that what you mean.

It's not very attractive unfortunately, No, I mean, what do you mean? It's it's just like the like the north pole in the South pole. Is that what you mean.

Yeah, the earth magnetic field serves a really important purpose. But what a lot of people don't know about it is that it's changing. It might not be around forever.

Yeah, the earth magnetic field serves a really important purpose. But what a lot of people don't know about it is that it's changing. It might not be around forever.

Oh what m I am Horhem and I'm Daniel, and welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Hoorheit explain the universe.

Oh what m I am Horhem and I'm Daniel, and welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Hoorheit explain the universe.

In which we take everything about the universe and try to make sure it makes sense to you. Things in the sky and things under our feet.

In which we take everything about the universe and try to make sure it makes sense to you. Things in the sky and things under our feet.

That's right, all the positive things, all the negative things in the universe, all.

That's right, all the positive things, all the negative things in the universe, all.

The north things and all the south things.

The north things and all the south things.

That's right. Today on the program, we're going to ask the question what's the source of the Earth's magnetic field?

That's right. Today on the program, we're going to ask the question what's the source of the Earth's magnetic field?

Like why is the Earth a huge cosmic magnet? Right? Like that's crazy to think about.

Like why is the Earth a huge cosmic magnet? Right? Like that's crazy to think about.

Like that, that's basically what we are. We're just a giant flying fridge magnet.

Like that, that's basically what we are. We're just a giant flying fridge magnet.

That's right. And the Earth is a huge magnet. It's really powerful. And it says that this huge single magnetic field that envelops the entire Earth, it protects us from radiation, allows us to navigate. Like where does it come from? Why does it exist? Are we lucky to have one? Does every planet have one? Where's it come from. Can we turn it off? I have so many questions.

That's right. And the Earth is a huge magnet. It's really powerful. And it says that this huge single magnetic field that envelops the entire Earth, it protects us from radiation, allows us to navigate. Like where does it come from? Why does it exist? Are we lucky to have one? Does every planet have one? Where's it come from. Can we turn it off? I have so many questions.

And it's super important because without the Earth's magnetic field, we would literally be toast, right, Like we would just get burned to a crisp.

And it's super important because without the Earth's magnetic field, we would literally be toast, right, Like we would just get burned to a crisp.

Is that a technically accurate use of the word literal? Like would you turn into toast?

Is that a technically accurate use of the word literal? Like would you turn into toast?

Like?

Like?

Could I spread butter on you and eating for breakfast?

Could I spread butter on you and eating for breakfast?

Uh?

Uh?

Dina, It depends on what you like.

Dina, It depends on what you like.

I'm not sure I'm into toasted whorehe for breakfast toasting? But yeah, without the magnetic field, there would be a huge amount of radiation that just bombards us. As we said before, the magnetic field bends the path of charge particles. It deflects them, so it doesn't like stop them. It's not like a force field where it goes and it gets fizzled out or anything. It just bends them. But if a charge particle is moving really fast, then all you need to do is deflect it and it'll go somewhere else instead of write into your brain and give you cancer.

I'm not sure I'm into toasted whorehe for breakfast toasting? But yeah, without the magnetic field, there would be a huge amount of radiation that just bombards us. As we said before, the magnetic field bends the path of charge particles. It deflects them, so it doesn't like stop them. It's not like a force field where it goes and it gets fizzled out or anything. It just bends them. But if a charge particle is moving really fast, then all you need to do is deflect it and it'll go somewhere else instead of write into your brain and give you cancer.

Right, And it's not just like a little bit of charge particles or it's a lot like the field is doing a lot.

Right, And it's not just like a little bit of charge particles or it's a lot like the field is doing a lot.

Right now, Yep, it does a lot of work.

Right now, Yep, it does a lot of work.

Without it, we wouldn't have an atmosphere, right, we would. We wouldn't be able to breathe. We would, really, really, the Earth wouldn't be the same.

Without it, we wouldn't have an atmosphere, right, we would. We wouldn't be able to breathe. We would, really, really, the Earth wouldn't be the same.

Yeah, it does a lot of heavy lifting every day. Most people, most people just ignore it. You know, most people aren't even awarely aware of everything that's being done for them by the magnetic field. Right, every wonder if it feels resentful, if it's like, man, nobody ever gives me props.

Yeah, it does a lot of heavy lifting every day. Most people, most people just ignore it. You know, most people aren't even awarely aware of everything that's being done for them by the magnetic field. Right, every wonder if it feels resentful, if it's like, man, nobody ever gives me props.

I'm doing all this work here.

I'm doing all this work here.

Everybody just takes me for granted. Right, it should just turn itself off for a few days just to teach us a lesson.

Everybody just takes me for granted. Right, it should just turn itself off for a few days just to teach us a lesson.

Yeah, yeah, I think people do take it for granted.

Yeah, yeah, I think people do take it for granted.

You know.

You know.

It's kind of like nobody ever pays attention to which way is north. You just think that it's always going to point to the same direction. Mm hmm.

It's kind of like nobody ever pays attention to which way is north. You just think that it's always going to point to the same direction. Mm hmm.

But it's not right exactly. And we've had a magnetic field for billions of years. As far as we know, the Earth's magnetic field formed pretty soon after the planet came to be.

But it's not right exactly. And we've had a magnetic field for billions of years. As far as we know, the Earth's magnetic field formed pretty soon after the planet came to be.

Okay, yeah, that's that's something I didn't know. And in fact, let's let's talk about a couple of things that maybe people don't know about the magnetic field. Some interesting facts about the magnetic field is that it's not perfectly aligned with our rotational axis. That's that's pretty surprising to me. Yeah, it's off by about eleven degrees.

Okay, yeah, that's that's something I didn't know. And in fact, let's let's talk about a couple of things that maybe people don't know about the magnetic field. Some interesting facts about the magnetic field is that it's not perfectly aligned with our rotational axis. That's that's pretty surprising to me. Yeah, it's off by about eleven degrees.

Right. Yeah. The Earth, it's like it has two north poles. Right, one is the one it spins around, right, the whole Earth is right, so it gives us day and night as the Earth turns towards and away from the Sun.

Right. Yeah. The Earth, it's like it has two north poles. Right, one is the one it spins around, right, the whole Earth is right, so it gives us day and night as the Earth turns towards and away from the Sun.

Yeah, we're spinning. The Earth is spinning, and so if you put a line through around where it's spinning, you would get one north pole. But you're saying the magnetic north pole is not aligned with that one.

Yeah, we're spinning. The Earth is spinning, and so if you put a line through around where it's spinning, you would get one north pole. But you're saying the magnetic north pole is not aligned with that one.

That's right, it's not exactly aligned with it. So if you were standing on the rotational north pole, the point around which the Earth is spinning, right, and you looked at a compass, it would point away from that place. It would say, Nope, you're not at the magnetic north pole.

That's right, it's not exactly aligned with it. So if you were standing on the rotational north pole, the point around which the Earth is spinning, right, and you looked at a compass, it would point away from that place. It would say, Nope, you're not at the magnetic north pole.

Oh wow, because the wait, so then where does Santa Claus live? Does he live in the rotational north pole or the magnetic north pole or does he have two houses?

Oh wow, because the wait, so then where does Santa Claus live? Does he live in the rotational north pole or the magnetic north pole or does he have two houses?

That's a big secret. I think we should save that for an entire other podcast. So the magnetic North Pole is different from the rotational North Pole. They're different by eleven degrees. And remember it's like three hundred and sixty degrees all the way around the circle eleven degrees, So it's not a big difference if you're in the US or in America or whatever, or in Asia. You can mostly use a compass that's going to point pretty close to the top of the Earth as we think about it rotationally, but not exactly.

That's a big secret. I think we should save that for an entire other podcast. So the magnetic North Pole is different from the rotational North Pole. They're different by eleven degrees. And remember it's like three hundred and sixty degrees all the way around the circle eleven degrees, So it's not a big difference if you're in the US or in America or whatever, or in Asia. You can mostly use a compass that's going to point pretty close to the top of the Earth as we think about it rotationally, but not exactly.

Wow, it's a big deal if you're in the North Pole, right, I mean eleven degrees must be like one thousand miles or something.

Wow, it's a big deal if you're in the North Pole, right, I mean eleven degrees must be like one thousand miles or something.

Yeah, as you get closer and closer to the North Pole, it becomes a bigger and bigger deal. Right, So that if you're standing on with the line that Earth rotates around, it's going to be kind of a big deal that the North Pole is far from there. But if you're far away from it, like most people are, most of our listeners are, then it's not really an issue. But I think it raises the interesting question like why aren't they aligned? Where does the magnetic field come from? Right? Like, is it a big bar magnet inside the Earth that got like knocked over and tilted. Is it something totally different? That's why I think it's it's quite fascinating.

Yeah, as you get closer and closer to the North Pole, it becomes a bigger and bigger deal. Right, So that if you're standing on with the line that Earth rotates around, it's going to be kind of a big deal that the North Pole is far from there. But if you're far away from it, like most people are, most of our listeners are, then it's not really an issue. But I think it raises the interesting question like why aren't they aligned? Where does the magnetic field come from? Right? Like, is it a big bar magnet inside the Earth that got like knocked over and tilted. Is it something totally different? That's why I think it's it's quite fascinating.

So it's three point four billion years old, meaning that before three point four billion years we didn't have a big magnetic field.

So it's three point four billion years old, meaning that before three point four billion years we didn't have a big magnetic field.

Yeah, that's right. And it's basically because if earlier than that, the Earth was just a hot ball of nasty magma and nothing was really organized, and so before that we didn't really have all the structures we needed to generate the magnetic field, and so it was just like a yeah, it's just a ball of lava in space, basically a giant level lamp, exactly, a hot drop of rock.

Yeah, that's right. And it's basically because if earlier than that, the Earth was just a hot ball of nasty magma and nothing was really organized, and so before that we didn't really have all the structures we needed to generate the magnetic field, and so it was just like a yeah, it's just a ball of lava in space, basically a giant level lamp, exactly, a hot drop of rock.

We've gone from fridge magnet to leva lamp, right. I guess we'll get in more into how that works. But this is this is an interesting semantic point, which is that the north pole, but we call the north pole, is actually the magnetic south pole.

We've gone from fridge magnet to leva lamp, right. I guess we'll get in more into how that works. But this is this is an interesting semantic point, which is that the north pole, but we call the north pole, is actually the magnetic south pole.

Yeah. It's one of these things about definitions, right. It's like when they discovered electricity. You know, they defined positive negative currents, and it turns out that electrons have negative charge. Right, it's just a definitional thing. But when they first figured all this out, they define north as you know, whichever side of the magnet points towards the Earth's north pole. But that actually makes it the south, right, because the southern the south pole of a magnet will point towards the north pole of another magnet, right right. That's just a definitional thing, but it's kind of funny.

Yeah. It's one of these things about definitions, right. It's like when they discovered electricity. You know, they defined positive negative currents, and it turns out that electrons have negative charge. Right, it's just a definitional thing. But when they first figured all this out, they define north as you know, whichever side of the magnet points towards the Earth's north pole. But that actually makes it the south, right, because the southern the south pole of a magnet will point towards the north pole of another magnet, right right. That's just a definitional thing, but it's kind of funny.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if you're holding onto your compass, the magnetic north pole of your compass points, of course towards the Earth north pole. That means Earth north pole is magnetically south, right, because the north pole of your compass is attracted to it.

So if you're holding onto your compass, the magnetic north pole of your compass points, of course towards the Earth north pole. That means Earth north pole is magnetically south, right, because the north pole of your compass is attracted to it.

So we should change the name or change the laws of physics? Which one should we do?

So we should change the name or change the laws of physics? Which one should we do?

First? Let's come up with better names, right, like not north and south, but like apples and oranges, or.

First? Let's come up with better names, right, like not north and south, but like apples and oranges, or.

I lift four blogs apple of here? Is that? Is that a general idea?

I lift four blogs apple of here? Is that? Is that a general idea?

I always thought it was weird that it was north and south. I mean, I understand where it comes from. It comes from the geographical question where are we and the Earth rotating and stuff? But from a physics point of view, you know, we like to think of these things as like positive and negative.

I always thought it was weird that it was north and south. I mean, I understand where it comes from. It comes from the geographical question where are we and the Earth rotating and stuff? But from a physics point of view, you know, we like to think of these things as like positive and negative.

Right.

Right.

All the other charges we think about, like electric charge and gravitational charge or weak force charge, we all think about those in terms of positive negative numbers. So North and South is sort of archaic. I had to redo it all over again. I would just to find one of them is positive and one of them is negative, rights like a big magnetic battery.

All the other charges we think about, like electric charge and gravitational charge or weak force charge, we all think about those in terms of positive negative numbers. So North and South is sort of archaic. I had to redo it all over again. I would just to find one of them is positive and one of them is negative, rights like a big magnetic battery.

And then we wouldn't be so concerned about the North pole not being aligned with the rotational north pole.

And then we wouldn't be so concerned about the North pole not being aligned with the rotational north pole.

Yeah, we probably have a big political question like would you rather have the North pole be positive or negative? Right? Everybody probably want Everybody probably wants to be positive. In the southern hemisphere would argue we should be positive. You guys are so negative up there.

Yeah, we probably have a big political question like would you rather have the North pole be positive or negative? Right? Everybody probably want Everybody probably wants to be positive. In the southern hemisphere would argue we should be positive. You guys are so negative up there.

You're being colonial exactly.

You're being colonial exactly.

That's right, that's right.

That's right, that's right.

Okay. So those are some pretty cool facts about the Earth's magnetic field. But now let's talk about what what's the source of it? How come we have a magnetic field and other planets?

Okay. So those are some pretty cool facts about the Earth's magnetic field. But now let's talk about what what's the source of it? How come we have a magnetic field and other planets?

Stone and I think a really important clue there is the fact that the magnetic field is not static. It's not just like, here's the magnetic field. It's always been this way, It's always gonna be this way. The big clue that the source of the Earth's magnetic field is something weird and interesting is that the magnetic field is changing you know that the magnetic field is moving. It's moving quite a bit, and it's also getting weaker, Like the magnetic field was much much stronger when the Romans were in charge of the world than it is today.

Stone and I think a really important clue there is the fact that the magnetic field is not static. It's not just like, here's the magnetic field. It's always been this way, It's always gonna be this way. The big clue that the source of the Earth's magnetic field is something weird and interesting is that the magnetic field is changing you know that the magnetic field is moving. It's moving quite a bit, and it's also getting weaker, Like the magnetic field was much much stronger when the Romans were in charge of the world than it is today.

Really and yeah, years ago, a couple thousand years a wow.

Really and yeah, years ago, a couple thousand years a wow.

And eventually it might even flip, right, it might be that positive becomes negative, north becomes south. Wow. And so that's quite interesting, right, It tells us that there's something really interesting going on making that magnetic field. So let's dig into that.

And eventually it might even flip, right, it might be that positive becomes negative, north becomes south. Wow. And so that's quite interesting, right, It tells us that there's something really interesting going on making that magnetic field. So let's dig into that.

Yeah, let's talk about that. But we were wondering how many people out there knew or had this idea that the magnetic field is not something that's given in unearth? How many people out there knew what's the source of the Earth's magnetic field?

Yeah, let's talk about that. But we were wondering how many people out there knew or had this idea that the magnetic field is not something that's given in unearth? How many people out there knew what's the source of the Earth's magnetic field?

Yeah, So I went around and I asked a bunch of unsuspecting undergrads that you see Irvine, and said, what do you think about this question? So before you hear their answers, think to yourself, do you know where the Earth's magnetic field comes from? Could you explain it? If you had to build the planet from scratch, how would you make sure it had a magnetic field? Yeah?

Yeah, So I went around and I asked a bunch of unsuspecting undergrads that you see Irvine, and said, what do you think about this question? So before you hear their answers, think to yourself, do you know where the Earth's magnetic field comes from? Could you explain it? If you had to build the planet from scratch, how would you make sure it had a magnetic field? Yeah?

Would you put just a bunch of fridge magnets in the middle.

Would you put just a bunch of fridge magnets in the middle.

Like a bunch of fridge magnets.

Like a bunch of fridge magnets.

Well, here's what people had to say, something to.

Well, here's what people had to say, something to.

Do with the core gravity. Okay, gravity, I assume it's the rotation of the Earth's core.

Do with the core gravity. Okay, gravity, I assume it's the rotation of the Earth's core.

Is it the core?

Is it the core?

The core?

The core?

The poll's north sophomore.

The poll's north sophomore.

All right, pretty I think there's a pretty good credit to those students at the use University of California at Irvine.

All right, pretty I think there's a pretty good credit to those students at the use University of California at Irvine.

Pretty good said gravity, it's always gravity. Turns out, actually they're not entirely wrong. Gravity as always plays a role. My favorite answer was the one that said the north pole in the south pole that gives the magnetic field. It's like cool, cool, good, complete, complete, and serve with that actually revealing any information. Yeah, and not making fun of these people, of course, you know, I put them on the spot answer random physics question, and I'm just impressed that they're even willing to share their thoughts with me.

Pretty good said gravity, it's always gravity. Turns out, actually they're not entirely wrong. Gravity as always plays a role. My favorite answer was the one that said the north pole in the south pole that gives the magnetic field. It's like cool, cool, good, complete, complete, and serve with that actually revealing any information. Yeah, and not making fun of these people, of course, you know, I put them on the spot answer random physics question, and I'm just impressed that they're even willing to share their thoughts with me.

Yeah, I know it takes some a certain amount of bravery to talk to you in public, Daniel.

Yeah, I know it takes some a certain amount of bravery to talk to you in public, Daniel.

I don't even know how to respond to that one. No, I usually try to avoid talking to myself in public also for that same reason.

I don't even know how to respond to that one. No, I usually try to avoid talking to myself in public also for that same reason.

Yeah, it's not it's frowned upon. But no, what I mean is a lot of people answered they knew had something to do with the Earth's core, something about the core and the magma and the crust, something about something going on inside the Earth itself.

Yeah, it's not it's frowned upon. But no, what I mean is a lot of people answered they knew had something to do with the Earth's core, something about the core and the magma and the crust, something about something going on inside the Earth itself.

Yeah. Yeah, And it's like thinking about the Earth is a big machine, right, which is kind of crazy because you walk along the surface of the Earth and you think of it just as a big rock, right, But underneath there are powerful forces and crazy things happening, and all that is happening in order so that you can have a magnetic field. So it's I'm just glad that people are aware of all the work the Earth is doing for us.

Yeah. Yeah, And it's like thinking about the Earth is a big machine, right, which is kind of crazy because you walk along the surface of the Earth and you think of it just as a big rock, right, But underneath there are powerful forces and crazy things happening, and all that is happening in order so that you can have a magnetic field. So it's I'm just glad that people are aware of all the work the Earth is doing for us.

Yeah, there's stuff happening inside the Earth, right, like it's an active machine, it's an active device.

Yeah, there's stuff happening inside the Earth, right, like it's an active machine, it's an active device.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely, It's like a boiling kettle of magma and crazy stuff is happening in there. And if it wasn't, we wouldn't have a magnetic field. So we're glad to have sort of a young hot planet.

Absolutely, It's like a boiling kettle of magma and crazy stuff is happening in there. And if it wasn't, we wouldn't have a magnetic field. So we're glad to have sort of a young hot planet.

Yeah. Well, let's get into it, but first let's take a quick break.

Yeah. Well, let's get into it, but first let's take a quick break.

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I'm an engineer, and I have to admit that I don't really understand how magnets work. So I thought, maybe.

I'm an engineer, and I have to admit that I don't really understand how magnets work. So I thought, maybe.

Well, welcome to the podcast.

Well, welcome to the podcast.

You came to the right place. This sounds like a great episode. I'll tune in. Let's take a step back maybe and then talk about just magnets in general.

You came to the right place. This sounds like a great episode. I'll tune in. Let's take a step back maybe and then talk about just magnets in general.

Yeah, magnets are really pretty amazing. They're one of my favorite things because they're like physics that you can see with a naked eye. Right, you can see a fridge magnet sticking to the wall. You can even get these things to push away from each other without touching. It's like the first sign of a force that you can really play with and identify with it. It almost looks like magic. Of course it's not, because we understand it, but it has something in common with it. Right, it's powerful, it's visceral, it's physical, it's right there in front of you.

Yeah, magnets are really pretty amazing. They're one of my favorite things because they're like physics that you can see with a naked eye. Right, you can see a fridge magnet sticking to the wall. You can even get these things to push away from each other without touching. It's like the first sign of a force that you can really play with and identify with it. It almost looks like magic. Of course it's not, because we understand it, but it has something in common with it. Right, it's powerful, it's visceral, it's physical, it's right there in front of you.

It's a lot of fun because most things don't act like magnets, right, Like, most things don't stick to the wall if you put them there. Most things don't push against you without any direct line of connection. Right, it's weird.

It's a lot of fun because most things don't act like magnets, right, Like, most things don't stick to the wall if you put them there. Most things don't push against you without any direct line of connection. Right, it's weird.

I don't know how many things have you tried. I've thrown a lot of different things at the wall, and a good number of them actually stick. You know, spaghetti sticks to the wall. It sticks to the wall, asagna sticks to the wall. Lots of different kind of foods. Don't you have young kids? You should be aware of how many things do actually stick to the wall.

I don't know how many things have you tried. I've thrown a lot of different things at the wall, and a good number of them actually stick. You know, spaghetti sticks to the wall. It sticks to the wall, asagna sticks to the wall. Lots of different kind of foods. Don't you have young kids? You should be aware of how many things do actually stick to the wall.

Once again, I'll decline your invitation to visit your house.

Once again, I'll decline your invitation to visit your house.

Just where you know, all rubber clothing. It's no big deal. I mean, just we just hose off after dinner. No, you're right, and not everything is a magnet, right, and so not everything sticks to sticks to things. And so let's talk about that a little bit. How do you how does something become a magnet? What makes something a magnet and something else not a magnet? Right? The amazing thing is that it's all about electrons. Okay, like the kind of magnet that you're familiar with, you know, a fridge magnet, a normal like a piece of metal that's become magnetized it sticks to something. How does that work? Well, The way that it becomes a magnet is because it has billions of tiny little magnets side of it. Each electron has something we call quantum spin, and it's not actually spinning around or doing anything physical. It's a quantum mechanical property we call it spin, and it generates a little magnetic field. So this electron does this weird thing and it generates a very tiny magnet. So every electrons is like a little magnet.

Just where you know, all rubber clothing. It's no big deal. I mean, just we just hose off after dinner. No, you're right, and not everything is a magnet, right, and so not everything sticks to sticks to things. And so let's talk about that a little bit. How do you how does something become a magnet? What makes something a magnet and something else not a magnet? Right? The amazing thing is that it's all about electrons. Okay, like the kind of magnet that you're familiar with, you know, a fridge magnet, a normal like a piece of metal that's become magnetized it sticks to something. How does that work? Well, The way that it becomes a magnet is because it has billions of tiny little magnets side of it. Each electron has something we call quantum spin, and it's not actually spinning around or doing anything physical. It's a quantum mechanical property we call it spin, and it generates a little magnetic field. So this electron does this weird thing and it generates a very tiny magnet. So every electrons is like a little magnet.

So it's not actually spinning. Physicists are spinning it as if it was spinning.

So it's not actually spinning. Physicists are spinning it as if it was spinning.

That's right, it's physic spin. Yet we use the word spin because the thing it does, the quantum spin, has a lot of similarity with physical spin. Like the mathematics we used to describe physical spin angular momentum. A lot of that mathematics can be copied over and applied directly to quantum spin. And that's what makes it compelling as a concept, and we should have a whole episode about what is quantum spin because it's fascinating.

That's right, it's physic spin. Yet we use the word spin because the thing it does, the quantum spin, has a lot of similarity with physical spin. Like the mathematics we used to describe physical spin angular momentum. A lot of that mathematics can be copied over and applied directly to quantum spin. And that's what makes it compelling as a concept, and we should have a whole episode about what is quantum spin because it's fascinating.

But the point is that each electron itself is like a magnet. It's like a really tiny little magnet with with a field.

But the point is that each electron itself is like a magnet. It's like a really tiny little magnet with with a field.

Yeah, has its own little magnetic field. And in some kinds of materials, the way the electrons are organized in their shells, et cetera, gives you an overall magnetic field for the atom. Okay, and some of them that they don't, they just cancel out. You get nothing right. And some of them you do get little magnets for the atom. And then in some of those atoms they like to organize in a way so all the magnetic fields are aligned. So, for example, in iron and a lot of metals have these properties that you can align all the little magnetic fields of the atoms so they point in the same way. So when you have a piece of magnet, like a chunk of metal that sticks to your fridge, the reason it has a magnetic field is because all those tiny little magnetic fields are all going in the same direction, so they add up to kind of a big magnetic field. You could have another piece of metal it's not magnetized, and all they're just sort of scrambled. They're all in different directions. So there are magnetic fields in there, but they're all just sort of canceling each other out.

Yeah, has its own little magnetic field. And in some kinds of materials, the way the electrons are organized in their shells, et cetera, gives you an overall magnetic field for the atom. Okay, and some of them that they don't, they just cancel out. You get nothing right. And some of them you do get little magnets for the atom. And then in some of those atoms they like to organize in a way so all the magnetic fields are aligned. So, for example, in iron and a lot of metals have these properties that you can align all the little magnetic fields of the atoms so they point in the same way. So when you have a piece of magnet, like a chunk of metal that sticks to your fridge, the reason it has a magnetic field is because all those tiny little magnetic fields are all going in the same direction, so they add up to kind of a big magnetic field. You could have another piece of metal it's not magnetized, and all they're just sort of scrambled. They're all in different directions. So there are magnetic fields in there, but they're all just sort of canceling each other out.

And it's not just metals. I mean like you and I and the chainmon, this wooden chair amon. It also has these billions of tiny little magnets. But the problem is they're not all pointing in the same direction, so they all cancel out, and so overall it's not a magnetic thing.

And it's not just metals. I mean like you and I and the chainmon, this wooden chair amon. It also has these billions of tiny little magnets. But the problem is they're not all pointing in the same direction, so they all cancel out, and so overall it's not a magnetic thing.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, to be magnetic, you need to have these little magnetic fields, and you have to have a structure where the substance likes to organize in a way so they all point in the same direction.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, to be magnetic, you need to have these little magnetic fields, and you have to have a structure where the substance likes to organize in a way so they all point in the same direction.

So we're all magnetic. We all have magnetic personalities.

So we're all magnetic. We all have magnetic personalities.

You want me to tell you you're a magnetic dude, You're a magnetic dude. That's fout, And that's how something can become a magnet. Also, right, like, you have a normal piece of metal and it sits next to a magnet for a long time. How does that become a magnet? Well, the first magnet is aligning all the little magnets in the other one. It's pushing them in the same direction. So eventually it becomes a magnet itself.

You want me to tell you you're a magnetic dude, You're a magnetic dude. That's fout, And that's how something can become a magnet. Also, right, like, you have a normal piece of metal and it sits next to a magnet for a long time. How does that become a magnet? Well, the first magnet is aligning all the little magnets in the other one. It's pushing them in the same direction. So eventually it becomes a magnet itself.

Right. But let's see if we can get into the maybe a little bit more so, what does it mean that each electron is like a little magnet. Why is that? Why does the electron have a field? You know, like why is it a pointed field?

Right. But let's see if we can get into the maybe a little bit more so, what does it mean that each electron is like a little magnet. Why is that? Why does the electron have a field? You know, like why is it a pointed field?

Well, there's a very close connection between electricity and magnetism, right. In fact, we think of them as one theory electromagnetism, and there's a lot of connections, like anytime you get electricity moving in a circle, that makes a magnetic field, okay, and the other it works in the other direction too. Any magnetic field that changes in time will generate electric currents. So we think of these things electricity and magnetism is sort of separate. Turns out they're really closely connected. They're really just two sides of the same coin. And that's why it's not really surprising that the electron, which is like the most basic charged particle we have, could generate electric fields, because in the end, it's a charge and it's not physically spinning, but it has quantum spin, and so you can think of it as like having a small quantum magnetic field. It really is a quantum mechanical effect, Like every fridge magnet is a quantum mechanical effect.

Well, there's a very close connection between electricity and magnetism, right. In fact, we think of them as one theory electromagnetism, and there's a lot of connections, like anytime you get electricity moving in a circle, that makes a magnetic field, okay, and the other it works in the other direction too. Any magnetic field that changes in time will generate electric currents. So we think of these things electricity and magnetism is sort of separate. Turns out they're really closely connected. They're really just two sides of the same coin. And that's why it's not really surprising that the electron, which is like the most basic charged particle we have, could generate electric fields, because in the end, it's a charge and it's not physically spinning, but it has quantum spin, and so you can think of it as like having a small quantum magnetic field. It really is a quantum mechanical effect, Like every fridge magnet is a quantum mechanical effect.

Wow. So it's just something kind of embedded in the laws of the universe. Is that whenever you have something with charge, like an electron, is just sort of automatically, by the laws of physics, associated with a magnetic field.

Wow. So it's just something kind of embedded in the laws of the universe. Is that whenever you have something with charge, like an electron, is just sort of automatically, by the laws of physics, associated with a magnetic field.

Yeah, charges plus motion gives you magnetic fields. In this case, the motion is the quantum spin.

Yeah, charges plus motion gives you magnetic fields. In this case, the motion is the quantum spin.

Right, And that's how you can make a non permanent magnet, right, Like that's how you make electromagnets exactly.

Right, And that's how you can make a non permanent magnet, right, Like that's how you make electromagnets exactly.

So those are little electrons. They spin and they make their own little magnetic field. But you could also do something else with them, is that you can move them in a circle, right, make a loop of wire and pass electricity through it, and it generates a magnetic field. Why. Well, that's just one of the Maxwell's equations. That's one of the laws of electricity and magnetism, that currents moving in a circle will generate a magnetic field. Because magnetic fields and currents are very closely connected. As I said before, there's just really two parts of the same thing. That's this pervasive quantum field that fills the universe, right, that lets us tap into the electromagnetism at any point, and moving charges through it will generate the magnetic field.

So those are little electrons. They spin and they make their own little magnetic field. But you could also do something else with them, is that you can move them in a circle, right, make a loop of wire and pass electricity through it, and it generates a magnetic field. Why. Well, that's just one of the Maxwell's equations. That's one of the laws of electricity and magnetism, that currents moving in a circle will generate a magnetic field. Because magnetic fields and currents are very closely connected. As I said before, there's just really two parts of the same thing. That's this pervasive quantum field that fills the universe, right, that lets us tap into the electromagnetism at any point, and moving charges through it will generate the magnetic field.

Right, And so it's kind of like if you take a bunch of electrons and you get them to go and move in a circle, they all sort of align and add up to create all of their little magnetic fields up to create a big magnetic field in the center of the circle.

Right, And so it's kind of like if you take a bunch of electrons and you get them to go and move in a circle, they all sort of align and add up to create all of their little magnetic fields up to create a big magnetic field in the center of the circle.

No, it's not their personal magnetic fields like the ones that come from their quantum spin. It's the fact that they're moving in a circle generates the magnetic field in the center. So they still have their own little fields from their quantum spin, but it's their motion in a circle. The current moving in a circle will generate a magnetic field as well.

No, it's not their personal magnetic fields like the ones that come from their quantum spin. It's the fact that they're moving in a circle generates the magnetic field in the center. So they still have their own little fields from their quantum spin, but it's their motion in a circle. The current moving in a circle will generate a magnetic field as well.

Wow, but why?

Wow, but why?

But why the deep question? Man? I think there's a technical way to think about that question, which is look at the equations to describe it. And there's equations have symmetry in them. They're called Maxwell's equations. You can google them and look at them and they show you that electric fields and magnetic fields they are connected. But I think the intuitive way to think about it is just as part of one right. It don't think that moving currents generates magnetic fields, like this one kind of thing generates this other kind of thing. Just think of them as part of one combined thing. Right. There's a close connection between electric fields and magnetic fields, and a fascinating inside comes from thinking about how electric and magnetic fields change if you look at them from different velocities. Like, if you have an electron at rest, it mostly gives you an electric field. Right, it is a very small magnetic field because of its quantum spin. Let's ignore that for now. But somebody else driving by, they see that electron not at rest, they see it as moving right, and moving charges give magnetic fields. So if you're at rest with respect to the electron, you mostly see it an electric field. If you're at motion with respect to the electron, you see an electric field and a magnetic field. This really is a clue that the two are different parts of the same thing, and you see different parts of it if you're moving at different speeds. So they really can't to be separated. They're really just two parts of the same beast.

But why the deep question? Man? I think there's a technical way to think about that question, which is look at the equations to describe it. And there's equations have symmetry in them. They're called Maxwell's equations. You can google them and look at them and they show you that electric fields and magnetic fields they are connected. But I think the intuitive way to think about it is just as part of one right. It don't think that moving currents generates magnetic fields, like this one kind of thing generates this other kind of thing. Just think of them as part of one combined thing. Right. There's a close connection between electric fields and magnetic fields, and a fascinating inside comes from thinking about how electric and magnetic fields change if you look at them from different velocities. Like, if you have an electron at rest, it mostly gives you an electric field. Right, it is a very small magnetic field because of its quantum spin. Let's ignore that for now. But somebody else driving by, they see that electron not at rest, they see it as moving right, and moving charges give magnetic fields. So if you're at rest with respect to the electron, you mostly see it an electric field. If you're at motion with respect to the electron, you see an electric field and a magnetic field. This really is a clue that the two are different parts of the same thing, and you see different parts of it if you're moving at different speeds. So they really can't to be separated. They're really just two parts of the same beast.

Oh I see, Okay, so that's magnet They can either be permanent, meaning that it's just the electrons inside of the material adding up to make a big magnetic field, or you can also make it a field by moving electrons around in a circle. Okay, so the Earth is which of the two? Is the Earth a permanent magnet or is it like a like an electric motor.

Oh I see, Okay, so that's magnet They can either be permanent, meaning that it's just the electrons inside of the material adding up to make a big magnetic field, or you can also make it a field by moving electrons around in a circle. Okay, so the Earth is which of the two? Is the Earth a permanent magnet or is it like a like an electric motor.

Well, it's a great question. For a while, we didn't know because it could have been that the Earth had basically a bunch of permanent magnets buried in it, right, because you know, there is this crust and it's got a lot of rock, and a lot of those rocks are metallic, and you might imagine maybe there's just a bunch of magnets and they all got a line somehow.

Well, it's a great question. For a while, we didn't know because it could have been that the Earth had basically a bunch of permanent magnets buried in it, right, because you know, there is this crust and it's got a lot of rock, and a lot of those rocks are metallic, and you might imagine maybe there's just a bunch of magnets and they all got a line somehow.

Right, Yeah, that wouldn't make sense, right, it.

Right, Yeah, that wouldn't make sense, right, it.

Would make some sense, right, You can imagine that happening. And then the Sun has a big magnetic field, so you can imagine maybe the Sun magnetized the Earth. And well, before we go too far into that crazy speculation, the answer is no, the Earth is not a permanent magnet. And we know that because the Earth's magnetic field seems to penetrate from the core right, not from the crust. And also because it's changing, it's not static, it's not the same all the time, and a permanent magnet. By definition, it would be permanent, right if it came from a bunch of buried magnets inside the Earth, then those wouldn't be changing. In fact, we do see the Earth's magnetic field changing.

Would make some sense, right, You can imagine that happening. And then the Sun has a big magnetic field, so you can imagine maybe the Sun magnetized the Earth. And well, before we go too far into that crazy speculation, the answer is no, the Earth is not a permanent magnet. And we know that because the Earth's magnetic field seems to penetrate from the core right, not from the crust. And also because it's changing, it's not static, it's not the same all the time, and a permanent magnet. By definition, it would be permanent, right if it came from a bunch of buried magnets inside the Earth, then those wouldn't be changing. In fact, we do see the Earth's magnetic field changing.

So how fast is it changing? Is it changing by the hour or by the one thousand years?

So how fast is it changing? Is it changing by the hour or by the one thousand years?

It's more on the thousands of years schedule, but we don't really know. The amazing thing is that we can see the history of the Earth's magnetic field. And the way we can do that is that we look at magnets being generated over time on the seafloor. So there's these like volcanoes that spit up magma and lava and stuff on the floor of the ocean. And what happens when they come up to the floor of the ocean is, of course they cool very quickly because you know all that cold water and lava and it cools very quickly. But the lava is sometimes magnetic, right, It has a bunch of little and it's in it. And so what happens before they cool is they get aligned with the Earth's magnetic field and then they get frozen. So each of those rocks is like a picture of the strength and the direction of the magnetic field when it was formed.

It's more on the thousands of years schedule, but we don't really know. The amazing thing is that we can see the history of the Earth's magnetic field. And the way we can do that is that we look at magnets being generated over time on the seafloor. So there's these like volcanoes that spit up magma and lava and stuff on the floor of the ocean. And what happens when they come up to the floor of the ocean is, of course they cool very quickly because you know all that cold water and lava and it cools very quickly. But the lava is sometimes magnetic, right, It has a bunch of little and it's in it. And so what happens before they cool is they get aligned with the Earth's magnetic field and then they get frozen. So each of those rocks is like a picture of the strength and the direction of the magnetic field when it was formed.

Wow.

Wow.

I was about to ask you how we know how we been measuring the magnetic field in our history books, but we don't have to. It's it's kind of embedded in the Earth itself, the history of the Yeah.

I was about to ask you how we know how we been measuring the magnetic field in our history books, but we don't have to. It's it's kind of embedded in the Earth itself, the history of the Yeah.

Really amazing.

Really amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And because the volcanoes underwater just continuously spew this stuff out, we have this like unbroken record of the strength and the direction of the Earth's magnetic field over thousands and thousands and millions of years. Wow. And that's the crazy thing is that not only is the earth magnetic field changing, like it's getting weaker and it's sliding off the north pole a little bit, it used to point the other way.

And because the volcanoes underwater just continuously spew this stuff out, we have this like unbroken record of the strength and the direction of the Earth's magnetic field over thousands and thousands and millions of years. Wow. And that's the crazy thing is that not only is the earth magnetic field changing, like it's getting weaker and it's sliding off the north pole a little bit, it used to point the other way.

What, Yeah, like degrees.

What, Yeah, like degrees.

Yeah, exactly. Like if you jumped into a time machine with the compass today and went back eight hundred thousand years, the compass would point in the other direction.

Yeah, exactly. Like if you jumped into a time machine with the compass today and went back eight hundred thousand years, the compass would point in the other direction.

Okay, So there's stuff going on and it's changing, which means that the Earth is not a permanent magnet. We're not a giant fridge magnet floating through space. So what's going on in there? What's causing the field then? Inside the Earth? Yeah, Well it's kind of a mess. But you know, the one option is permanent magnets. If it's not that, it has to be a current, right. You need some sort of charges moving in a circle to generate a magnetic field. So what could be doing that. It's not like somebody built a huge machine made of wires down under the ground, right.

Okay, So there's stuff going on and it's changing, which means that the Earth is not a permanent magnet. We're not a giant fridge magnet floating through space. So what's going on in there? What's causing the field then? Inside the Earth? Yeah, Well it's kind of a mess. But you know, the one option is permanent magnets. If it's not that, it has to be a current, right. You need some sort of charges moving in a circle to generate a magnetic field. So what could be doing that. It's not like somebody built a huge machine made of wires down under the ground, right.

Instead, what we have that sort of a basic picture of what's inside the Earth is you have the crust which we're standing on. Under that, there's a big liquid layer of various rocks and metals, and then there's a solid core, right, and that liquid layer is sloshing around. There's a lot of heat that's coming up from the gravitational pressure and from the radiation of all the crazy stuff inside the Earth. It's keeping that sort of bubbling and frothing. It's like a big soup of liquid metal, and basically the currents in that soup of liquid metal are what's generating the magnetic field.

Instead, what we have that sort of a basic picture of what's inside the Earth is you have the crust which we're standing on. Under that, there's a big liquid layer of various rocks and metals, and then there's a solid core, right, and that liquid layer is sloshing around. There's a lot of heat that's coming up from the gravitational pressure and from the radiation of all the crazy stuff inside the Earth. It's keeping that sort of bubbling and frothing. It's like a big soup of liquid metal, and basically the currents in that soup of liquid metal are what's generating the magnetic field.

So all those electrons in that tup moving around in a circle is what creates the earth magnetic field.

So all those electrons in that tup moving around in a circle is what creates the earth magnetic field.

Yeah, if you take something that can conduct electricity, like iron, and you melt it down right, and you slash it around in a circle, you'll be generating little magnetic fields because you have electrons and they're moving in a circle. Right. And it's a little bit more complicated than that, because it's not like the liquid inside the Earth is just slowly moving in a circle and that generates the magnetic field. It's much more turbulent than that. Right, This convection going on. Things that are dense fall and things that are light bubble up to the top, and that's making all of this swirling. And this is cool effect called a dynamo. And what happens is you get a little magnetic field from some initial swirling. And because electricity and magnetism are so closely connected, that magnetic field will push electrons around. Right, Like we said, the magnetic field of the Earth deflects charged particles. Right, you get a magnetic field started in the earth. It builds on itself because the motion of the electrons gives you a magnetic field. That magnetic field pushes those electrons around even more, which gives you more magnetic field. So it's sort of a feedback effect.

Yeah, if you take something that can conduct electricity, like iron, and you melt it down right, and you slash it around in a circle, you'll be generating little magnetic fields because you have electrons and they're moving in a circle. Right. And it's a little bit more complicated than that, because it's not like the liquid inside the Earth is just slowly moving in a circle and that generates the magnetic field. It's much more turbulent than that. Right, This convection going on. Things that are dense fall and things that are light bubble up to the top, and that's making all of this swirling. And this is cool effect called a dynamo. And what happens is you get a little magnetic field from some initial swirling. And because electricity and magnetism are so closely connected, that magnetic field will push electrons around. Right, Like we said, the magnetic field of the Earth deflects charged particles. Right, you get a magnetic field started in the earth. It builds on itself because the motion of the electrons gives you a magnetic field. That magnetic field pushes those electrons around even more, which gives you more magnetic field. So it's sort of a feedback effect.

Huh, like a perpetual motion machine kind of like feedback.

Huh, like a perpetual motion machine kind of like feedback.

Yeah, the source of energy is that you have this all this heat that's coming from the gravitational pressure the Earth being squeezed by its own stuff and the radiation. So it's not like a perpetual motion machine because it's constantly being fed energy, right, So it's more like a like a bubbling cauldron of stuff, right that generates these magnetic fields.

Yeah, the source of energy is that you have this all this heat that's coming from the gravitational pressure the Earth being squeezed by its own stuff and the radiation. So it's not like a perpetual motion machine because it's constantly being fed energy, right, So it's more like a like a bubbling cauldron of stuff, right that generates these magnetic fields.

And its motion is sort of related to the Earth's rotation, right. I mean, it's like the Earth spinning is kind of what creates these currents going in a certain direction, which is why the magnetic field is sort of aligned with this rotational axis of the Earth.

And its motion is sort of related to the Earth's rotation, right. I mean, it's like the Earth spinning is kind of what creates these currents going in a certain direction, which is why the magnetic field is sort of aligned with this rotational axis of the Earth.

Yeah, exactly, These currents are the Earth moving relative to its liquid core.

Yeah, exactly, These currents are the Earth moving relative to its liquid core.

Right.

Right.

If you ever held like a you know, a ball that has liquid inside of it, you know, yeah, they don't roll normally. Right. If you have a ball half filled with liquid, you roll across your garage floor, it's going to go all wonky and be really unpredictable, right, And if you spin it, similar things happen, So it creates crazy currents inside of it. And so this this is like it's hot and it's bubbling and it's spinning, so you definitely get lots of complex fluid dynamics going on inside there.

If you ever held like a you know, a ball that has liquid inside of it, you know, yeah, they don't roll normally. Right. If you have a ball half filled with liquid, you roll across your garage floor, it's going to go all wonky and be really unpredictable, right, And if you spin it, similar things happen, So it creates crazy currents inside of it. And so this this is like it's hot and it's bubbling and it's spinning, so you definitely get lots of complex fluid dynamics going on inside there.

But it's related to the spinning, but it's not completely dependent on the spinning, which is why it's the two axes are not aligned.

But it's related to the spinning, but it's not completely dependent on the spinning, which is why it's the two axes are not aligned.

That's right. Yeah, but they're definitely related, right, they're definitely related. But you know what's generating the magnetic field. The short version is that it's you know, spinning hot liquids inside the Earth. Spinning magnetic conducting liquids inside the Earth are generating our magnetic field, which is crazy, right.

That's right. Yeah, but they're definitely related, right, they're definitely related. But you know what's generating the magnetic field. The short version is that it's you know, spinning hot liquids inside the Earth. Spinning magnetic conducting liquids inside the Earth are generating our magnetic field, which is crazy, right.

Yeah, the Earth is hot, it's magnetic, it's attractive.

Yeah, the Earth is hot, it's magnetic, it's attractive.

It's amazing to me that it's stable at all. You know that that would like not just be pointing in all sorts of random directions, you know, like you watch a pot of water bubble, right, and it's crazy. It's going crazy all the time. It's this direction in that direction, and somehow the Earth's magnetic field is surprisingly stable given all the craziness that's happening under our feet.

It's amazing to me that it's stable at all. You know that that would like not just be pointing in all sorts of random directions, you know, like you watch a pot of water bubble, right, and it's crazy. It's going crazy all the time. It's this direction in that direction, and somehow the Earth's magnetic field is surprisingly stable given all the craziness that's happening under our feet.

Well, let's talk about that, but first, let's take a quick break.

Well, let's talk about that, but first, let's take a quick break.

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When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite, but the people in the dairy industry are US Dairy has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water, for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US Dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from a newer into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. So the next time you grab a slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrienttents dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit US dairy dot com slash sustainability to learn more.

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Let's get into that is it stable? Because you said earlier that it flipped a long time ago and it's moving over thousands of years, that that doesn't seem super stable.

Let's get into that is it stable? Because you said earlier that it flipped a long time ago and it's moving over thousands of years, that that doesn't seem super stable.

Our magnetic field is remarkably stable compared to others, Like the magnetic field of the Sun. It flips direction every eleven years very regularly. What, Yeah, the Sun's magnetic field like it has a huge impact on the solar system, like where do charge particles go? And how does the solar wind blow and all this kind of stuff, and every eleven years it just flips.

Our magnetic field is remarkably stable compared to others, Like the magnetic field of the Sun. It flips direction every eleven years very regularly. What, Yeah, the Sun's magnetic field like it has a huge impact on the solar system, like where do charge particles go? And how does the solar wind blow and all this kind of stuff, and every eleven years it just flips.

Flips, So what causes it to flip? I mean on earth. What causes our field to flip.

Flips, So what causes it to flip? I mean on earth. What causes our field to flip.

We don't really understand it, but the short version is that it's a big hot mess and it's sort of unstable, and so you know, it's mostly supporting itself and you get a feedback effect. But these things can be crazy. It's like when you roll that half filled ball across your garage floor. Sometimes it mostly rolls straight, sometimes it does a crazy loop. And so if one little random thing happens, it can push it sort of off course. That can build on itself and feedback in the wrong direction. So these are instabilities from equilibrium and when that happened. Once that happens, it can very quickly go off course. Imagine you like driving your car down the freeway at ninety miles an hour. You know everything's going fine and you're it's all good. Suddenly it tire pops right and you're flipping over, or you veer. You know, your kid makes the noise in the back seat, and you pull your hand on the steering wheel a little bit, start going in the wrong direction. It's suddenly very hard to get back on track driving smoothly right. It's sort of like that with the magnetic field. One little random effect. One little random occurrence can sort of build on itself and make things go crazy, and eventually things can even flip over and go the other direction.