Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseDaniel and Jorge talk about string theory, loop quantum gravity, M-theory, p-branes, geometric unity and ice cream!
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Hey Daniel, what's the one thing you most want to understand about the universe.
Hmmm, I think I might say everything.
Does everything count as one thing?
Well, it does if we understand all of it together and how it's all connected.
You mean, like how we're all one with the universe?
Man, exactly past the banana peels. Man. That's the goal.
So when you go to an ice cream store and they say, pick one scoop of ice cream, do you try to order everything? Also?
Yeah, I do. I try to convince them of my unifying theory of ice cream.
You know, they unify in your veins too.
Right, And do my best to bring it all together.
Well, at least it's insightful and delicious. Hi am Jorge Im, a cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics. Hi.
I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I eat a lot less ice cream than I thought I would when I was a kid.
What do you mean you had a projection as a kid and you're not meeting the expectations.
No, when you're a kid and you think, wow, when I grow up and I get to decide what I eat, I'm just going to eat ice cream all day. But it turns out that's not really what I want.
Really, what happened, you change your mind. You haven't found your perfect ice cream flavor yet.
Maybe I just ate too much ice cream in college and I'm just done.
Oh so you did accomplish your goal. It's just that you know, you found out that once you achieve your goals, then you know life goes on.
Yeah, maybe I blew through that one a little too quick and I got to move on to something else.
Or maybe it's the opposite. Life stops going on if you eat too much ice cream and you realize.
That maybe that's it. Maybe life should be measured in scoops of ice cream. Everybody lives the same number of scoops of ice cream.
And you blew it all in your twenties. But welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.
In which we try to take a big scoop out of the universe. We serve you up a delicious ball of sweet sweet understanding of the mysteries of the universe. We talk about everything that's out there in space, the crazy stuff colliding and producing gold, the weird stuff in tiny little particles. We think about where it all came from, where it's all going and what it's all going to do, and we try to make sure all of it makes sense to you with a cherry on top.
And some sprinkles, Because even ice cream is made out of physics, right. The ice cream is made out of particles, which are made out of subparticles, which are made out of sub subparticles, which are the same particles that everything else in the universe is made out of. Stars, planets, moons, asteroids. It's all sort of one big, continuous, giant, delicious, mostly frozen the universe.
With sprinkles on top. Absolutely, it's amazing, Yes, But this picture that we can take the universe and like reduce it to tiny particles so far seems to work. All the crazy stuff that's out there, it seems so different, but we can explain most of it by boiling it down to a few little bits and how those bits fit together. And you know, I don't know why we live in the universe like that. It could have been that we lived in a different kind of universe, one where every kind of thing has its own particle, and you don't really get any simplification when you try to take it down to the lower level. But fortunately we do live in a sort of lego universe where there are a few basic building blocks and everything comes out of the arrangements of those.
Yeah, it is pretty odd to think about, right, Like, even frogs are made of the same thing as you know, quasars and giant asteroids floating in space. It's all sort of made out of the same little bits and pieces.
Yeah, and it's not just like the same types of bits. It's actually the same bits in a basically the same proportions. You have the same ratio of protons, neutrons, and electrons, and basically every element and every element it makes everything. And that means that basically everything you've ever eaten is just a different arrangement of the same number of protons, neutrons, and electrons.
Yeah, and it seems like there aren't that many of those particles, right Like, as far as we know, the standard theory of physics says that right now, we think there are about only what is it, twelve particles in the entire universe.
Well, it sort of depends on how you ask, right, Like, most of the stuff we see out there in the universe, it's made out of only three of them of quarks down quarks, which give you protons and neutrons and then electrons. You only need those three to make most of the stuff. But then we have found other particles, and you're right, we're up to twelve now matter particles. But we don't know if those twelve particles are actually fundamental, if they're made of something smaller, or if there are more particles out there. There could be like twelve million particles. We just haven't found most of them yet.
I guess it's kind of like how we discovered the periodic table of the element at some point, and we thought we had everything figured out, and then it turned out that each of those elements is actually like a copy or a repeat of the same sort of smaller particles electrons, protons, and neutrons, and even those turn out to be made out of other particles.
And another flabbergasting and amazing fact of the philosophy of science is that we seem to be able to understand the universe differently but effectively at all of these different levels. Like chemistry kind of makes sense, right, You don't need to know all the details of the particles for that to work. And then you drill down into the atomic physics and that kind of makes sense, and nuclear physics makes sense, and then you get down to like the tiny, tiny particle physics, and there's all these sort of layers at which you can think about the universe made of pieces, and the rules of those pieces are understandable. But we can also drill down and find even smaller pieces. So it's incredible to me that there are these layers of understanding. You don't have to go all the way to the tiniest bits in order to make sense of the universe around you.
And just like how you use the word flabbergasting, a flabbergasted Gollie gee.
I am grateful and amazed that the universe is sensible. You know, sometimes listeners write to me and they ask, like, do you think it's possible for us to understand the universe? That one day far in the future humans will understand everything? And you know, I don't know the answer to that. Obviously we can't know, but you know, I don't think dogs will understand the universe. We're a little smarter than dogs, but I don't think we're maximally smart, so there's certainly a chance that we won't. So I'm just kind of grateful and flabbergasted that we figured anything out right.
I think maybe dogs understand the universe to the extent that it serves them, you know, like most dogs probably feel like they have a pretty good sense of the universe around them and are comfortable. Maybe that's it's our future, you know, we'll just understand it as far as getting our treats and our rubs and a tummy go and then maybe we'll stop.
Well.
I think dogs would definitely be better off if they were smarter. Like my dog thinks that every time the refrigerator opens, it's getting a treat, but that's definitely not true. And if it understood, like you know, how to open the fridge on its own, or what time of day typically gets a treat, or what it should do to encourage us to give it a treat, I think we'd get more treats and waste less time.
Yeah, but then you just eat ice cream all day, Daniel. Maybe dogs are smarter than you think.
I'm pretty sure a dog would eat ice cream all day if we have a chance, let's do that experiment. Let's put some ice cream in front of a dog and see what happens.
Maybe the key to happiness Daniel is not getting what you want to be optimistic about getting what you want. Maybe dogs are one with the universe more than we are.
Wow, maybe this is turning into a dog psychology podcast.
Welcome to the dog whispering philosophizing.
Daniel and Jorge explain your pets to you.
Oh my god, that is a winning podcast idea. Let's pivot here, Daniel.
Your cat is really just not that into you.
Yeah, and now tell me about your rats. Do they get flabbergasted as well?
Our rats have unfortunately passed away because rats only live a couple of years. They're wonderful pets. They're smart, they're intelligent, they're responsive, they're actually affectionate, but they are sort of short lived. It was a bit sad. That's why we now have a dog.
Hmmm, I'm sorry. I guess they went back to being particles.
They live on, Their particles live on through the universe.
It seems like it's all connected. Everything's made out of the same basic particles, which I think makes physicists wonder if you can go further and break things down even more and maybe get down to one particle or one type of particle that ties the entire universe together into one theory.
We would love to do that. To explain everything in terms of one equation, we could just ride on.
A T shirt, hopefully not a big T shirt on a onesie or maybe like one with extra long coattails. That'd be a new fashion statement, or.
In super duper tiny font that you need reading glasses to read. Now, we want a simple theory. We want to reveal the fundamental nature of the universe. A goal of physics is not just to optimize our ice cream intake, but to sort of understand, to have that moment where we like, we get it, We're like, oh, that's how the universe works. And to do that, we want one simple idea that tells us what the rules are.
Yeah, it's a big goal in physics. It's the ultimate dream, perhaps of a physicist to discover it. And so today on the podcast, we'll be asking the question, what's the most promising theory of everything? Everything, everything, everything, like everything right, like all of it.
Yeah.
I guess you could also call it the most promising theory of the universe.
Yeah, except that these days we've gone beyond the universe and we have the multiverse, and so you know, maybe you should call it the every verse or the alliverse or something.
Everything's most promising theory of Everything's.
You can't have everythings.
That could be the sequel through the theory of everything the movie The Theory of Everything's.
The theory of the theory of everything.
Yeah, so it's a goal in physics to come up with one I guess, one equation, Daniel, what do you think this theory will look like? And one equation on one hable one you know, fortune cookie, piece of paper. What will this theory look like?
What will this theory look like?
Wow?
I wish I knew. You know, Currently we use math as the way we express our ideas. Matter and forces are both described by fields, which are expressed as quantum field theories, and so one hope is that we could generalize quantum field theory and use it to describe things at the smallest level. But you know, we've explored a tiny little fraction of the universe. As you say, the universe is mostly cold and things are moving slowly, and it could be that what we've learned is not representative, and it's always dangerous to extrapolate from like a tiny little corner of the universe to the rest of it. You wouldn't say you understand elephants if you've only ever looked at one elephant's tail, for example. And so I'd love if quantum field theory was the path forward. But I suspect we need some sort of completely new kind of mathematics in order to make progress towards this final fee man.
You have to discover new math before you can discover new physics.
Absolutely, we're constantly inventing or discovering new math to make progress. It's this fantastic sort of duet between math and physics. Mathematicians invent some new tool, they're like, hey, this is useless but fun, and the physicists are like, wait, I can use that for something. Bring that over here. I'm going to build that into my theory. And I'm never actually sure whether mathematicians are like delighted to have their tools find you so or a little disappointed that they've been like sullied by brought into the physical world.
Do you think they see you as a duet partner or as like a backup singer.
Oh, I definitely think that mathematicians think of physicists as sort of like unnecessary frosting on the cake. You know, I think mathematicians see themselves as more primary and fundamental than physicists, the way I think a lot of physicists think about chemistry and biology, you know, sort of these like layers of the onion. I heard one mathematician describe his department as the halls of truth without irony, the.
Halls of snobbery, which that is what you're saying. There's a trickle down effect for snobbery in the sciences.
There's a whole hierarchy of snobbery. Absolutely.
I Meanwhile, everyone uses their phones and computers, which are made for by engineers to do their.
Science exactly, and it's not just limited to science. The snobbery is everywhere.
But anyways, this is a big question, a lofty goal, and we were wondering, as usual, if people out there on the Internet had ideas about everything, which sounds like a redundant question. As usual, Daniel went out there and asked people if they knew what the most promising theory of everything is.
And so thank you to everybody who volunteered, and especially to our recurring superstar Lucian, who has volunteered I think consecutively for every single one of the last forty episodes. If you'd like to participate, please don't be shy. Write to me two questions at Danielanjorge dot com.
Think about it for a second. What do you think is the most promising theory of everything? Here's what Lucian and a lot of other people had to say.
I don't know much about.
Candidate theory of everything.
The only one I know a bit about is the string theories.
That's the one I think is.
Maybe string theory, which I've also heard referred to as brain theory as it evolved a little bit instead of just strings. Now they're saying maybe it's membranes.
I didn't know there was more than one theory of everything.
That's pretty cool.
Something to do with the theory that unifies general relativity and quantum theory maybe makes.
Me think of social media. If you go there youself. You have people having theories about everything, but the most promising one it's the super string theory. I guess the ones that Brian Green and others working on it.
I'd say the most promising theory of everything is the Big Bang theory. It encompasses all of the sciences antis them together neatly into a theory for cosmology, and you know, especially for chemistry, physics.
All of it.
It just seems to go together.
Well.
I like string theory, but I'd say the Big Bang theory is better.
Doctor mitchill Ocaku speaks of an elusive, elegant equation, perhaps an inch or so long, that operates in both the quantum and relativistic realms. I would have to side with Professor Kaku and nominate string theory as the most promising, but I think that squeezing all that math down to an inch will be a bit of a stretch.
I will vote for string toting.
Well.
I happen to think quantum gravity is on the right track, but that's not actually a theory of everything. String theory seems to be losing favor, as I think is also M theory. The many world's explanation of things is always right, because there's always a place where it's right. But I don't really know the answer.
I think the most promising theory of everything is the M theory that can only be done by that one guy whose name I can't remember, and nobody else seems to understand it all right.
I think I just realized something.
Daniel what's that.
The acronym for a theory of everything is te toe, So really you're looking for the big toe of the universe.
Yeah, that's sort of tough to reconcile with the snobbery of particle physics, isn't it.
What do you mean?
Are you saying toes aren't ignoble somehow or not worthy of the highest regard?
Definitely exactly toes make me think of, you know, toe, cheese is kind of smelly. You can stub your toe, you know. Toe is not like poetry written about people's toes very often?
Haven't there been love songs devoted to toe?
Sing me one?
Are some people into toes?
I'm into theories of everything, so maybe put me in that category of being into toes.
You're a toe theory fetishist.
But our listeners have definitely thought about the theory of everything. There were some good answers here.
A lot of people mentioned string theory. I feel like people are maybe familiar with that idea that maybe it could be a theory of everything.
Yeah, and thank you to all those listeners. And I want to make a shout out to one of our youngest listeners, two and a half year old Hannah from Australia. Her dad wrote to me and said that she was home from childcare was sick, and she asked him can we listen to Daniel and Jorge. So thanks Hannah for listening to our podcast.
And you said, obviously the answer is no, right.
I'm not her dad.
We're not qualified to take care of children, Daniel, especially not other people's children.
I think Hannah should get some more ice cream. What do you think, Jorge?
I think she should maybe be listening to some math podcasts instead. But hey, I say a lot of ideas out there about the theory of everything, So let's break it down for people, and so real quick, Daniel, what would you say is theory of everything? How would you define it?
Well, everything for physicists means like all the experiments. We want to explain basically anything that you can do. We want to be able to predict what happens. We don't want any surprises. We want to be able to say, if you smash these two particles together, here's what's going to happen. If you drop a feather on the moon. Here's what's going to happen if you bring all this matter together. Here's how a black hole forms. We want to be able to predict what happens. We want to know what the rules are, and so at the most fundamental level, that means explaining all the kinds of bits of stuff there are out there, all the matter, and then all the rules about how those bits talk to each other, so like all the forces. So put simply, we want a single description, a single idea, a single mathematical equation that explains all the matter and all the forces in the universe.
Like one theory, one framework, or one equation that can tell you what's going to happen, or maybe not what's going to happen, but what's likely to happen.
Right, Yeah, exactly. Our universe is quantum mechanical, which means we can't say exactly what will happen, but it's still deterministic because we can say what's likely to happen. You can say, if you shoot an electron at a proton at this angle, here's exactly the distribution of possible outcomes. And so the wave function is still deterministic, even if how it collapses is not.
Right or more accurately, like if I smash these two particles together one hundred million times, that you should get, you know, approximately exproportion of this happening or exportion of that happening.
Yeah, if you're a frequentist and that's how you interpret probability, then yeah, exactly in one hundred million similar experiments, you would get this distribution of outcome. If you're basy and then you say, well, there's a probability of various outcomes.
Did you just call me a frequentist.
Yeah, you just outed yourself as a frequentist.
And I know whether I should be offended or flattered.
I guess that depends on your posterior.
I guess I feel flattered, you know, fifty percent of the time, offended another fifty percent of the time.
No, don't, I'm a frequentist. I think it makes a lot more sense.
All right, Well, let's get into some of the details about what the theory of everything would apply to and what are some of the leading candidates right now. But first let's take a quick break.
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All right, we're talking about the big toe of the universe, the big theory of everything that can maybe one day explain everything that happens and predict exactly how it's all going to turn out, every little nook and corner of the universe, right, I know. That's what a theory of everything promises.
That's what a theory of everything promises. Yeah, it's to explain everything in terms of one idea. And you know, the history of physics is that we saw a lot of weird stuff and we try to explain sort of each bit, and then we looked for patterns and we try to like organize the stuff into groups. We said, well, you know what, maybe lightning and static electricity are actually the same thing, and then we developed like a coherent explanation for electricity. And so the basic step forward there is not to say lightning is static electricity. Obviously they're related, but they're different. You try to fit them together into a common idea, right to say, these two things are part of the same larger concept.
They both come from the same effect or the same I don't know, equality in the universe or something.
Yeah, and you can generalize that a little bit, like we've made further progress by noticing that there's a deep relationship between electricity and magnet right that, Like particles that have charges on them, for example, are affected by magnets, and particles that move can make magnets. So there is deep connection between electricity and magnetism, and we unify that into electromagnetism. Again, that doesn't say, oh, electric charges are the same as magnets. It's not saying that they're identical. It's just saying that it makes more sense to fit them together, that they are two sides of the same coin. And mathematically they sort of click together like pieces of a puzzle.
Like they can be predicted by the same equation.
Yeah, there's a symmetry in the equations. In fact, if you look at the equations of electromagnetism, you notice that the electric field and the magnetic field have exactly the same and opposite rules. So there's four of those equations, and if you swap the electric field, the magnetic field and all of them, you get the same equations. So that's kind of cool.
I guess you know, there's a lot to the universe. There's a lot in the word everything, and so would this cover everything like matter, forces, space, time, be trying to wrap that all all up into one equation.
Yes, exactly, I want all of it, you know, put all those scoops into one big cone. We definitely want to explain matter. Like we were talking about before, we would love to understand what is the most basic element of the universe. First of all, how many basic elements are there in the universe. By elements, that don't mean, you know, like lead or iron, I mean the most fundamental thing in the universe, the basic ingredient, the smallest piece out of which everything is made. We'd love to understand what that is. You know, we don't think that the current list of particles we have are fundamental. We don't think that those are the answer, right.
They might be reducible to simpler bits and pieces.
Exactly, because when we look at these particles, we notice weird patterns, patterns that don't make any sense, patterns that don't have any explanations, and those patterns are typically historically very valuable clues that lead you to figuring out how to sort of assemble the current list of fundamental particles out of something smaller, to figure out how they might be made out of different combinations of smaller bits.
And it would also have to cover the forces, right or do you count those as particles because forces have particles too.
Right, Yeah, we would love to explain the forces, and we can explain the forces in terms of fields and then ripples in those fields and being interpreted as particles. Absolutely, So you can think about the universes made of fields or made of particles either way. So forces you can think about as fields or as particles. But we would definitely like to unify these forces and to understand them together. What we were talking about a minute ago was sort of the unification of electricity and magnetism, and we've made a lot of progress there. We've even unified electromagnetism with the weak nuclear force, this force that's responsible for beta decay, radioactive decay, and other sorts of radioactive processes. We understand them now to be like part of one larger mathematical construct, the electroweak force, and we're sure that's correct. We know that that's true, that it reveals something deep about the universe, because realizing how those two things click together is what allowed us to predict the existence of the Higgs boson.
Which was a pretty big step in unifying everything. So would this include then also gravity as well? Do you hope to sort of explain gravity in one quantum framework?
Yeah? Absolutely, we would love to explain all of the forces together. Now we have some forces for which we have a quantum mechanical description, like electromagnetism and the weak force and the strong force. We haven't yet managed to merge all those quantum mechanical forces together. These are the forces that you can describe in terms of a quantum field or particles passing back and forth, and we have not yet unified the strong force with those other ones, so that's left to be done. We would also like to understand like is gravity even a force doesn't belong on this list, Like you mentioned earlier, we want to unify all the stuff, all the forces, and then space and time well, our space and time really their own separate thing. Are they just manifestations of some quantum gravitational quantum mechanical force? Are really something different? We don't understand that at all. So yes, we would like one clear understanding where all the pieces fit together, and all the pieces have to be there, like it's a complete puzzle, not just a few pieces that stick together.
Like you don't want to have any bits left overs where you're like, what is this for or how does this fit in? I don't know, just you know, keep it there on the side. No, you want like the equations to tell you why that thing is there or why it's not.
There exactly, And we want the math to lead us there. We want to find like symmetries that say this is the only way these equations work because they have to follow this rule, you know, Like we have symmetries that say, for example, every inertial frame of reference follows the same law of physics, and that really limits the kinds of laws of physics that you can write. You can only write ones that follow those rules. And we think that that's a symmetry of the universe. So we'd like to sort of find symmetries that tell us how to write the laws of physics. And it would be great if there was only one possibility, if we're like, well, you know what, this is the only one that sort of works, hangs together. It has all the pieces we need, doesn't have any extra bits that don't correspond to things we see, and so that would be really beautiful. And then we could look at that and say, Okay, what does this tell us about the universe? What does this reveal about the source code of the universe? Speed out of vanilla? So what it's trying to tell is Daniel, it's the writing on the sweetness wall there. No, I would guess the universe is probably of raspberry flavored. You know, there's these huge gas clouds of ethels in the center of the galaxy, and you know, is the responsible for the smell of raspberries?
Are you saying God has a favorite flavor or a scent.
I'm saying the universe has a smell and it's not vanilla.
And it doesn't fell like nothing. It smells like everything.
Yeah, exactly smells like barbecue.
All right, Well, this is a pretty lofty goal. I guess what makes is this this think it's even possible, Like, why should the universe be reducible to a few simple equations or laws or rules. Why couldn't the universe just be kind of crazy and random?
Yeah, I think simply the answer is hope. We hope that it's possible. We would love for it to be possible, And like many human projects, it's just driven by hope, not faith, you know, just hope. We would love to have an explanation for the universe that is simple and complete. We don't know why any explanation for the universe holds, Like why does science even work? Why can you do an experiment today and then tomorrow the same laws of physics still work. We don't even know why that's true. Right, So we'res you know, on sort of shaky ground philosophically, But we've made a lot of progress, right. This hope has fueled us towards a ever deeper understanding of the nature of reality and an ever simpler description. Like as we peel apart matter, we do find a smaller number of simpler objects that explain complexity at a higher level. You really only need about three particles to explain hurricanes and hamsters and lamas, and all that stuff. So so whar it seems to work. We've made pretty good progress.
But then, Daniel, the problem is you also have to ask, is there a theory of hope? Can you explain hope with the theory? And then your brain explodes.
It's a theory of inception and it's not just hope. Right, we've made some good progress, and also we have some good tips, Like we look at some numbers, and we look at some trends, and things seem to be going in the right direction. Well, what do you mean. Well, for example, we would love to explain how all of the forces are really the same thing, you know, not that they're exactly identical, but that they're like four parts of the same thing, the way like the power rangers come together into one big ranger or whatever you call that. So we'd love to do that, and one obstacle to doing that is understanding why they're all such different strengths, Like the weak force is pretty weak, and the strong force is pretty strong, and gravity is like a crazy week. It's hard to understand how you have these four bits and fit them together if they're all such different strengths. Well, it turns out and we talked about this on the podcast one time, that the strength of the forces depends on the energy of the experiment you use to probe them. Like the charge of the electron depends on how closely you look, how far you penetrate into this cloud of virtual particles that surround the electron. Well, all of the forces are like that. It's called the running couplings. The value that dictates how powerful a force is depends on energy. The amazing thing is that as you go up in energy, all these numbers are pointing together. It seems like they're coming together to one common value.
There are a lot of hints that maybe it is possible to unify everything together because things sort of lean that way.
Yeah, things are leaning that way. We think that if the universe was really hot and dense and there was a lot of energy, that all these forces would be similarly powerful the way. For example, magnetism seems weaker than electricity, right, Well, it turns out that if you're going at the speed of light, the two things have equal strength, which is why photons can exist, because they're just electricity and magnetism like slashing back and forth in perfect balance. So at the speed of light, those two forces are the same, and we think that in the very early universe or a very hot day environments, the strong force, the weak force, electromagnetism, and maybe even gravity all have the same strength, which would help us fit them together into sort of like one big idea.
All right, interesting, Well, I guess maybe let's go into now, what are some of the leading candidates for this theory of everything? I know that there are a couple of ideas out there, some are fringe, some are more mainstream, and a lot of people seem to know about. So what are some of these leading candidates for the universe's toe.
Well, there's definitely one that's far out ahead of everybody else in terms of like number of people who are investing their careers in it and believing like it might actually lead to a theory of everything. And that's definitely string theory.
Yeah, that's the one with the best pr department too. It seems like a lot of people had heard of the string.
Theory exactly, a lot of people have written really beautiful popular science books on it, and there's lots of specials about it, and people talk about it. It's also sort of cool and it's easy to sort of visualize because it tells you that the universe it's not made out of these weird tiny dots that are hard to get your mind around, but instead that it's made out of these little vibrating strings.
And now these little strings, are they like part of a field? Are they just like strings floating in space? Are they part of a giant like universe? You know, guitar or what? Are these strings?
So they are quantum objects, right, So in that sense, you can think of this as a quantum field theory, right, And these little strings. Instead of saying like you have a little energy located in a point in a field, instead imagine like a one dimensional version of a particle, instead of a zero dimensional version, imagine a one dimensional version of a particle that would be a line. And then this thing can vibrate. You can have different kinds of energy. And the cool thing is that if you look at these strings really really far away, they look like particles because you can't sort of like see how wide they are. But if you zoom in, you would discover that all the things we call different particles are just the same string vibrating different ways. Like it vibrates this way, you get an electron vibrates that way, you get a graviton.
So you're saying, like all quantum particles, like a quark or an electron, if you zoom in enough at the core of it instead of a point particle, you'll see like a little what vibrating though? And how can it be one dimensional if the electron and the quark are multi dimensional?
Well, in our current theory, right, electrons and quarks are zero dimensional. They're just point particles that have no length, no width, no height, And so that's kind of bonkers. It doesn't make any sense. You know, how can you have masks with no volume? It would have infinite density and you know, turn into a black hole and all that stuff. We dug into that whole thing in another podcast episode. So this just takes it and stretches it out and makes it one dimensional. Says it has length but no width and no height, and then it can vibrate because that string can move, because the quantum field itself can oscillate.
Right, But is it vibrating in any particular dimension or direction or is this in like another dimension it's bibrating.
Yeah, So the mathematics of string theory are complicated, but It turns out that they work best if space has more dimensions than just the three that we're familiar with, if it has like eleven dimensions, and these other extra spatial dimensions would be sort of very hard for us to see. They'd be very very small, so it's kind of difficult to visualize. But imagine like every location in space, right, X, Y, and Z. Those are the three dimensions. Now at every location, you can also like go around, or you can like turn, or there's like another direction, another dimension of your location, another value you need to specify to say exactly where you are.
Interesting, So it's reducing quantum theory to like little string.
Theory, yeah, exactly, and then these strings oscillate often in these other hidden dimensions. Now, there are some theories of extra dimensions of space and time in which those dimensions are very simple. They're just like little loops, and those are fun. We've talked about them on the podcast. String theory requires these extra dimensions to be really complicated. Objects are called calabio manifolds. They would have very very complicated geometries, and anyway, the strings would like vibrate in these crazy dimensions that would be invisible to us but based on their vibration in those dimensions, they would appear different to us. So if it vibrates you know, this way and all those other dimensions, then it would be an electronic vibrates that way, it would be a muon, and that would be pretty awesome to understand, Like, oh, electrons and muons, they look like one is a copy of the other one. That's because one is like the resonance of the other one, or it's you know, a different standing wave of this vibrating string in this other dimension. It would help us unify those things and understand, like the relationships we see in the particles are actually just different modes of those strings.
Is it kind of like you know, how different sheets of paper look all the same from the side, but maybe if you look at them from another dimension, they could have different shapes in colors.
Yeah, absolutely. Or if you're a two dimension object in the three dimensional world, the stuff that's happening that third dimension can definitely affect what you see and you just aren't privy to it, and so you're seeing a little slice of what's going on, and you can't understand the relationships between those things because they exist in a dimension that you can't move in or you can't see. But string theory is also it's just sort of beautiful mathematically like, it all really fits together very nicely, and a lot of people are really attracted to it because some certain things just sort of like fall out of the theory. For example, string theory is a very natural theory of quantum gravity. You basically have to have gravity in your theory. If you have a string theory.
Interesting it really pulls at your heart strings. So what you're saying, all right, let's get into what some of the other leading candidates are, and let's talk about which one seems the most promising out of these promising candidates. But first, let's take another quick break.
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Blinds dot Com rules and restrictions may apply it all right, we're talking about the theory of everything, or at least a couple of theories of Everything's and talked about string theory as one of the most popular ones. But there are a couple of other theories that are up there, right, They're still in contention for everything, for the whole shebang.
Or the whole shabang exactly.
So what are some of these theories?
One of my favorite is sort of a generalization of string theory. String theory is an idea that's been around for decades and people were poking around and making progress, and there were like a few kinds of string theory that had been developed, and they only described like a little bits of the universe, or there was this kind of string theory of those kind of strings and how they interacted. The field was sort of fracturing to several different ideas. Then in nineteen ninety five, Ed Witten, who's like one of the smartest people ever, unified them all together. He showed that all the different string theories that people had been working on were really just like sort of limiting cases that were like extreme versions of one grander theory. So we had these like five different string theories and he brought them together into one theory that he called M theory, like.
The multi string guitar theory of string theory exactly.
And you know, nobody knows why it's called M theory. And eventually somebody asked him, like, hey, why'd you call this thing M theory? What does M stand for? He said, well, actually he didn't know, and he was waiting for us to like really deeply understand it and then we can figure out what M stood for.
I think he really just wanted to say muh theory. It's MU theory, and like, I'll just hide it as a physics nomenclature.
Maybe or since his last name starts with a W, maybe he's like has a secret upside down w in there.
Oh.
Interesting, like the anti version of him came up with this theory.
Yeah, exactly right, And so m theory is sort of like a super version of string theory and includes other things like supersymmetry. This idea that every particle that's a fermion, like the matter particles, have relationship with all the bosons, the force particles, and for every boson there should be a fermion. For every fermion there should be a boson. So it brings that together also into one larger theory. Instead of just thinking about individual strings, this allows us to think about like two dimensional versions that they call brains, which is short for membrane, not like br ai n your brain.
Right, Like maybe things aren't strings, but they're like little nap can cost right.
Yeah, like little sheets or three or four dimensional. And so they have these arbitrarily dimensional objects, you know, one dimensional, two dimensional, three dimensional, and so they call them this rather ridiculous name P for the number of dimensions and then P brain the.
Dumb dump that's a P brain theory, Dan, it.
Really is a P brain theory. But you hear these like super smart people really talking to each other about P brains, you know, without any irony or giggles.
A good thing. They didn't call it the opposite brain P brain P theory.
Well, you know, there are a lot of people out there who don't think that string theory is the path towards a theory of everything. They think it's ridiculous, waste of time and all just sort of mathematical conjecture.
They're like, yeah, everything, that's a theory of nothing.
Yeah, exactly. Well, the real criticism of string theory is that it operates at such a tiny level that we can't really test it. Like, sure, you're telling us maybe what's happening at ten to the minus thirty five meters, but how do we know. We don't have a collider that can do experiments yet at that small scale, and so it's just sort of like a story we're telling, but not something we can test. Really, the only test of string theory so far has been a search for these supersymmetric particles, these extra fermions, and bosons that might be there to balance out the ones we have in the standard model, and we were supposed to find those at the Large Hagon Collider, but we didn't. We didn't see any super symmetric particles. So that's a bit of a blow for string theory, all right.
Well, then if strings or little napkins or ebrains are not maybe the best way to go, what's an alternative?
Then?
Well, some people are coming at it from a completely different direction. Instead of taking quantum mechanics and trying to incorporate gravity and making this big quantum mechanical string theory view of the universe, they're starting from gravity, and they're saying, instead of making gravity into a quantum theory, let's just try to quantize space itself, like you were talking about earlier space and time or fundamental elements of the universe. We don't really know if that's true, if these things come out from something smaller, we don't understand what space is. So a lot of people are working on this theory called loop quantum gravity, which tries to take space and describe it as these little bits of like a quantum foam, and have the whole universe sort of come out of that quantum foam.
Like instead of having like a perfectly smooth universe and space and time on which you have these quantum fields that are lumpy, maybe space itself is kind of crunchy and lumpy and not perfectly smooth.
Yeah, maybe there's like a minimum distance to the universe below which it doesn't really make sense to talk about things being closer together than that, because it's just not possible, like all of space is like pixels on some universe screen. And so that's exciting and people have been working on that the last few decades. There has been some advances and revolutions, and it seems sort of like it's an alternative to string theory because it's a different way you might be able to bring gravity and quantum mechanics together. It's a completely different approach and it's made some progress. But the problem is that it sort of just brings gravity and quantum mechanics together. It doesn't actually unify all of the forces, Like it can't explain why do we have electromagnetism, why do we have the weak force? Why do we have the strong force? But it's you know, progress in that direction.
Right, I guess you can if you, you know, make space itself quantum, then that doesn't explain how what like particles can interact with each other across the distances. Is that kind of the limitation.
It's not really a limitation. It's just like they haven't gotten there yet. They're still building the foundational building blocks. It's not clear necessarily how you would get there. It's not ruled out, it's not impossible. But so far the scope of loop quantum gravity is not to describe all of it's just to make this step of bringing gravity and mechanics together. Once you do that and collect your five Nobel prizes, you know, take a day off, and then you can start working on the other part of the theory.
All right.
Well, so those are some of the respectable toes, you know, that's the big toe, the middle toe of physics, his feet and feats. But they're also sort of like these less respectable toes or you know, kind of the pinky toes of the universe floating out there, the theories that are not quite as popular or mainstream. But that might be exciting. So, Daniel, the real quick toe is what are some of these fringe theories?
Right?
Well, theories of everything are a popular target for people who are not in academia, who think like, maybe the physicists have just sort of gotten it wrong, and what it needs is like a fresh idea from somebody who's not entrenched in all of these ideas in the history and the incremental progress. They're coming in with a brand new idea and blow it all up. And so, for example, Steve Wolfram came out last year with the theory that he thought might be like the foundations of a theory of everything. He's a smart guy. He's a guy who developed mathematica, and he is a physician, stands a degree in physics. And his basic idea, which we dug into once on the podcast, is that maybe the universe is made out of these cellular automata. He envisions that the universe is made out of one kind or a small set of kinds, of tiny things with very simple rules. And he studied this for a long time and shown, and many other people have shown that if you start from simple things with simple rules, you can get complexity. And we know that already, like hurricanes are not written into the laws of the universe. They arise from quarks and electrons, interacting in really complicated ways. So what he did was he showed that, you know, you can sort of have like cellular automata that rite the rules of the universe. You start from a few simple ideas and then a rule for how those ideas can change. They can sort of like write the rules of the universe. And he looked at what his cellular automata produced and they sort of looked physics, and he was like, aha, look at this, Maybe this is how the universe was generated.
All right, So that's one kind of a fringe idea that you know, so maybe you can make a universe out of very simple building blocks cells. What are some of the other French theories.
Well, there were a couple engineers who took it upon themselves to write a theory of everything. This is a theory that's called the Fragments of Energy theory by two guys in North Carolina called silver Berg and Icin. And they were thinking about energy and they're noticing that like energy seems to flow, doesn't never just sort of like hang out. And they thought, well, you know, maybe energy is the thing, and like energy always flows through the universe, and you can think about it as flowing through these lines, and maybe you can quantize it and like break it up into these little packets and think about how it flows together. So they wrote down some rules for how energy flows and how to break it up and how these packets of energy would then interact. And they were able to do some cool stuff with it, Like they twisted it a little bit and added a few bits, and they were able to reproduce some predictions of general relativity. So they thought that was pretty cool, and they put this out there to a lot of fanfare. Actually it hasn't landed very convincingly, Like I think most of academic physics was like.
Eah, that was a paper review Reviewer number one says, eh, Reviewer number two says, and is that the most hurtful review you can get in physics? Like not something dissecting your math or telling you why your hypothesis is wrong?
Is it's a difference you could imagine revising general relativity or like reimagining it in some different conceptual space and reproducing it. That's cool, but it's not like a new theory of everything. So they haven't really like made any progress. In fact, their theory doesn't quite reproduce general relativity. They need to like add some by hand numbers to squeeze it in there to get things right, like you know, the procession of mercury and the bending of light around the sun. Stuff Einstein got right one hundred years ago without having to tweak or tune his theory at all. They got to sort of like put this in a little bit by hand. So it's not really clear that it's progress. It's not like a way forward. It's just like, here's another way of looking at relativity that makes more sense to us, and also doesn't quite work as well, so not necessarily like really that exciting.
It doesn't seem inevitable or a shoe in right away.
And it also doesn't necessarily tell you what to do next. Like the exciting thing about string theory is that there's things to explore, there's puzzles to solve. They're like, oh, we can try this different compactification of those other dimensions. We can try this one, we can try that one. There's areas where you can make progress here. It's just sort of like, oh, that's interesting, I'm not sure what to do next with.
This, all right, what are some other French theories?
So another one that got a lot of attention was gonna buy a guy named Eric Weinstein. He also has a phdew Physics, but now it works at a hedge fund, and he's a you know, very well known guys on podcasts all the time. And he has a theory called geometric unity that he came out with about ten years ago. And he basically just takes all the theories that we have now and sort of stacks them on top of each other, sort of like an ice cream sandwich, and says, I'm just gonna stick them all into one container.
What do you mean, like quantum gravity, like quantum physics and general relativity, you can stack them.
Well, he doesn't have quantum gravity in there yet, and so he's just taken all the quantum theories and stacked those together. And you know, like, I'm not really sure what you accomplish in doing that. It's just sort of like groups them. It doesn't necessarily like show that they're part of one larger hole or that they have a deep relationship. He likes the way they've stuck together, but there's no simplification that's achieved there in my understanding.
I see, it's still pretty unsupported. I guess.
And another issue with it is that he hasn't yet written a paper about it. So it's been out there for about ten years. And he was invited to give a talk about it at Oxford and he came and he presented it. The problem is that, like nobody invited all the physicists at Oxford and.
So, and that hurt your feelings. So now you're just down on the theory.
No, And in academia, you know, we need to see a paper. We need to like see all the detailed description so we can like think about it and play with it and read about it and talk to each other about it. And he's actually recently promised to put a paper out.
Maybe they asked him why did listen he write a paper and he just said, and you're like, ooh, you got.
Us, you got us. And other mathematicians that have looked at what he said sort of digested what he said on a podcast and in his one presentation has said that they found that mathematically inconsistent. You know, there are reasons why we haven't stacked all these theories together. They don't play nicely together. There are anomalies, there are things that don't make sense. There are inconsistencies that happen if you try to jam them together and you don't find the right way to do it. It doesn't seem like he solved those problems, but we'll just have to wait to see what his paper says.
All right, Well, those are some pretty interesting and promising fringe theories, and we also have some core, more popular theories, I guess, just to sort of closes out here, Daniel, let's talk about really quick about whether or not you think it's even possible to have a theory of everything, And even if we find one, would it be useful at all in helping us in our everyday lives.
Yeah, it might not have immediate engineering applications, right, even if you understood the universe and its smallest skin and all its littlest rules, that wouldn't help you understand when a hurricane was coming, or you know how to get to the neighboring galaxy necessarily. On the other hand, it might reveal something deep and fundamental about the universe that would give us immediate applications, if you like, uncovered a new force or let us tap into and control dark energy, the biggest fraction of the energy budget of the universe that could very much really change our lives. We never know what this understanding will reveal. On the other hand, it could allow us to create terrible weapons and then we could wipe each other out, So you never know what the future holds.
Could be useful, it could destroy all humanity. You know, we don't really like to think about those practical consequences.
Yeah, exactly, from the worst possible outcome to we are now masters of the universe. Basically, that's the spectrum we're talking about here.
Then you just blame the engineers and politicians.
Exactly. I was just eating some ice cream. It wasn't my fault.
I was just sitting here snacking on ice creaming being flower gased and all. We're all dead.
And if that worries you, you know, there are people who argue that maybe it's impossible. You know, there's this famous theorem, this godles incompleteness theorem that says that all mathematical systems are either inconsistent or incomplete. You know that either they contradict themselves or there are things that cannot be proven.
What what is this theory based on? How can it say that everything is wouldn't it also be inconsistent and.
Oh man, we need a whole another podcast episode to dig into goals in completeness theorem. So let's put a pin in that. But it's a formal theorem in mathematics which people think is right. You can argue about what exactly it applies to and whether it applies to physical theories or just to axiom based mathematical systems. But some people use as an argument to say, like, maybe there's a limit to how well our mathematics can describe the universe. You know, it doesn't say that the universe isn't physical or it doesn't make sense, but maybe, like our mathematical systems, which are based on these axioms, are just not the right line language for exploring the universe. You know, it's not guaranteed that the universe can be described by mathematics just because that's the way we like to think about it currently.
So what would it be. I guess we can talk about it another time. But if not math, then what.
I don't know. We'll have to meet those alien physicists that have developed something else. What's the foundation, what's the language of their physical theories? Maybe it's not mathematics, right, just because we can't imagine it doesn't mean it's not reality, all.
Right, And like you said, it might not even be possible to confirm these theories in the end, right, because we're talking about scales for which we really don't have a microscope to go and.
Check that's right. Yeah, until we build a solar system sized particle collider, you know, send in your checks, we can't really test these theories.
And it might be that it just keeps going on forever, Like you might find what do you think is the smallest theory, but it just keeps going down and down the.
Rabbit hole exactly. It might be that there is no smallest scale and that there's just like an infinite layers to this onion.
Hey, that's an idea on aon ice Maybe that's the unifying theory of everything.
Daniel, the infinite onion flavored ice cream.
Wow, I'm flabbergasted.
And while it's fun to think about the theories of physics, that sort of physicists are thinking about. Lots of people out there thinking about theories of everything, and sometimes they email them to me. I got an email from one of our listeners who had a fun idea. He says, quote. Maybe our observable universe is actually the nexus of two different overlapping universes, one for quantum mechanics and one for general relativity, and that's why we can't unify them. So it's interesting. Yeah, it's fun to think about, and it's sort of tantalizing because everybody knows this is a big goal in physics and physicists that are struggling to get there, and it would be fun to sort of like have that moment of inspiration and see the truth of the universe and then you know, reveal it to everybody and eat some ice cream volume When you Nobel prize, then.
You can be flavor gasted and live in the halls of truth. That's what we all aim for.
I think that should be the name of our ice cream pop upstand, flavor g.
Let's do it all right, Well, hopefully we'll make some progress in the future. In the meantime, try not to stub.
Your toes, Daniel, and don't eat too much ice cream.
Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, see you next time.
Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge explain the universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emission. House US dairy tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more.
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