What is a black hole, and what would it be like to fall into one?
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Sometimes science comes up with the worst name for things they discover.
I know, like killer whales, which aren't killer and are not actually whales, they're actually dolphins.
Excellent point. But I was actually thinking about black holes.
Okay, that's one of my favorite space names. What's wrong with black holes?
It's an awesome name. But black holes aren't totally black, and they're not actually holes.
They're dolphins, all right. Who runs the science pr department here?
I think it's run by a bunch of dolphins.
A bunch of killer dolphins.
So long and thanks for all the fish. We're heading into the black hole. Hi am Jorge, and I'm Daniel, and this is Daniel and Jorge explain the universe.
Today we're gonna ask the question what is inside a black hole?
Maybe the deepest, darkest mystery in the universe. But first, as usual, we went around and asked people on the street what do they know about black holes and what's hiding inside them. Here's what they had to say.
A bunch of destroy destroyed matter and energy.
I don't know exactly what's inside, but like it like captures light, and it has a gravity so like strong that like after a certain point you can't escape it.
Isn't it like a vacuum?
The anti universe, I don't know.
Holy moly, I love some of those answers the anti universe.
It seems like most people kind of had a good idea of what a black hole was, right, Like a lot of people knew it was like a dense mass, right.
Yeah, it's like a gravitational trap things can't escape from. People seem to have the basics out there, right that they're dense, they're dark, and things can't escape from them.
Right, But nobody knew what's inside of one.
That's right. Nobody could tell us what was inside a black hole. Apparently just walking around in the street isn't the best way to get a solid scientific answer.
But anyway, it's a black hole. So I guess you know, before we talk about what's inside a black hole, we should still recap what is a black hole?
Yeah? What is a black hole? Black Holes are sort of fascinating ideas because for a long time people thought black holes were just sort of like a mathematical curiosity, like the kind of thing that you see in an equation. Then if you believe that equation describes reality, then it suggests black holes might exist. But it's the kind of thing that makes you wonder, is this really true or it's just so sort of like a weird feature of the equation, something people are not going to actually discover.
What do you mean like this that the origin of the idea of black holes, think it was actually a theory first wasn't observed or anything exactly.
The idea of black holes came from general relativity, and it wasn't observed for decades later. In fact, Albert Einstein thought black holes would never be seen. He thought they didn't really exist, even though his theory predicted them.
What did the theory predict.
Einstein's basic idea is that gravity is not a force like other forces things that pull and push on each other, like electromagnetism and the weak force. He thought gravity instead was just a bending of space time. So his idea was any mass would just sort of bend space. So imagine like a rubber sheet. Space is that rubber sheet you put something big and heavy on it. It bends things down. Now, if you want a marble, you roll a marble across that sheet instead of just going flat across the sheet. If it encounters someplace where the sheet is bent, it's going to change its path.
So the marble thinks it's going straight, but actually, like the rubber it's on is curved.
That's right. It's that the most direct path is now curved with respect to your previous path. And that's a tricky concept for people to understand that. It's the bending of space, and it's the sort of intrinsic bending. It changes the natural straight lines. But I love how you say the marble thinks it's going straight. Like you have this tendency to anthropomorphize everything, like we were talking about that last time. In this case, like the marble has an opinion, like, hey man, I'm going straight. I don't care what space says.
We think it's a cartoons. A cartoon is.
I imagine that you look at the world and see little cartoon thought.
Bubbles on everything. That's my worldview.
So we were talking about very heavy objects. So the idea is very heavy masses bend space, right, they bend space, so that when you move through space, you end up moving through a curved path, right, And Einstein and then some later folks realized that there are some solutions to the general relativity equations where space is bent so much that you can imagine it's like a bottomless hole in that rubber sheet, so the things can never escape them. And Einstein and these other folks they discover these features the equations, but they were like, is this real? You know? And this goes to the heart of some of the stuff I love, like the connection between physics and math, right, Like, we use math as a language of physics to describe the universe, and sometimes the math takes this in directions where we're like, no, that doesn't really work here. The math is not physical. Right, we'll like throw away mathematical ideas that we say are not physical because they don't describe what actually happens. Sometimes the math describes something which we think is unphysical, it turns out to be real and that's that's what happened here, which is pretty cool.
Well, so the math predicted that if you might have a situation where we have so much mass in such a small space that will distort space so much that it will sort of create almost like a hole in space.
Yeah, like a bottomless hole in this rubber sheet, so that even light which travels, you know, the fastest thing in the universe, can't escape because the all the straight line paths are closed.
Now wow, so like you're still dabbed down into the hole of the burber sheet. You'd have to be pointing up basically to get out.
There's no path out. Yeah, exactly. You know those big funnels they have in lots of science museums. You can put a penny in and it rolls around, it goes faster and faster and faster, and it jumps down into the hole. You can think of it sort of like that. But imagine then you're down in the hole, right, There's no way for the penny to roll up and out of that hole.
Right. Okay, So it started off as a mathematical weird case, right for Einstein, and he was a smart guy, but he didn't think that that could actually exist.
In real life. Yeah, he thought it wouldn't actually happen because he thought that everything spins, and because things spin, it's harder for them to collapse. Really, you can think of most of the stuff in the universe as sort of a battle between gravity and some sort of pressure keeping it from collapsing. Like gravity wants to.
Suck stuff together, right, crush them together.
Yeah, it's weak, but you give it enough time, it's going to pull things together and make them tighter and denser and denser. So you might ask, well, why isn't everything in the universe a black hole? Like it's fourteen billion years in Gravity's had a lot of time. You know, why is the Sun not a black hole? Or why is the Earth not a black hole? Because gravity has compressed them And the answer in many cases is that they're spinning, and the spinning provides us sort of a rotational pressure. Think about what happens when you're standing on a merry go round, right, somebody spins it, You can get thrown off the merry go round, And so that sort of rotational pressure that keeps you from getting sucked in. And our galaxy and the Sun and the Earth, all these things are spinning, and it does make it harder to become a black hole. And so Einstein thought that there's no way you could ever see this because things were spinning, and that we wouldn't ever actually see a black hole, it'd be impossible for them to create.
He thought gravity could never actually crunch anything down that small, because at that size things would sort of spin outwards more than gravity could crunch them in. Yeah, and he has proven wrong, Like we actually saw black holes.
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If you love iPhone, you'll love Apple Card. It's the credit card designed for iPhone. It gives you unlimited daily cash back that can earn four point four zero percent annual percentage yield. When you open a high yield savings account through Applecard. Apply for Applecard in the Wallet app, subject to credit approval. Savings is available to Applecard owners subject to eligibility. Apple Card and Savings by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch Member, FDIC, terms and more at applecard dot com. Yeah, so we should talk about how you can see a black hole, right?
I always imagine you see like a little black dot or a black circle in the sky or something.
So a black hole is so heavy that light can't escape it, and that means that it doesn't reflect any light. Right, you shine a flashlight on it, no light comes back, Right, you shine a spotlight on it, shine a laser on it, you shine anything on it. No light comes back.
Even if it has the sun next to it, it won't bounce off.
That's right. No light reflects, okay, and it also doesn't emit any light. Now, there's a tiny asterisk we should talk about later, which is called hawking radiation. Turns out, black holes do give off a little bit of energy, but you can't really see it. So from the point of view seeing a black hole, it's basically invisible. It's just like a black circle R. So how could you possibly see that a black hole is there?
Well, you know, I watched that movie Interstellar, which I know could be a whole topic of conversation, but.
That was your research for this podcast.
That and I read the Wikipedia page for the black Hole movie, which is a classic seventies movie. Did you ever watch that movie?
Yes, it did. In fact, I saw that movie a few weeks ago with my kids.
No way, really.
I think it was supposed to be like a response to Star Wars or something, and it's much weirder than Star Wars.
According to Wikipedia, it's like the first Disney movie ever to get a PG rating.
My kids were like, why did you show us this movie? Was this supposed to be good? Or is this educational?
But this that movie was a huge part of my childhood. You know, it was like made a huge impression on me.
You saw the black Hole movie as a kid?
Yeah, you didn't see this again, you.
Might have been the only one. I don't think it was very popular.
No, it's huge in Panama. What are you talking about?
Huge in Panama? Yeah, I rest my case. Yeah, let's hope this podcast is huge in Panama.
Let's hope we achieved that level my fellow Panamanians. I hope they're listening.
So how could you actually see a black hole? Let's shift out of the fictional world and back into what we imagined to be the real world. How could you see a black hole? Well, its biggest defining feature is its gravity, and so it has very powerful gravity, and you can see the effect of gravity on nearby stuff. So, for example, one of the biggest black holes near us is at the very center of the Milky Way. There's an enormous black hole there. It's huge. It's called super massive and that's the category of black hole. And we can see that it's there because we see stars orbiting it. So we see the path of stars that are going around the black hole. So we can tell, oh, these stars are orbiting something, but we see nothing there. So you can do the calculations. You could say, oh, all these stars' orbits are consistent with something really heavy here. Like imagine you were looking at the Solar System and you couldn't see the Sun. You could guess that there was something really massive there. You could see, look all these planets that are going around, and they're all consistent with orbiting one thing that's really heavy, and you can even calculate its mass from the orbits and all that stuff. You could deduce that the Sun was here without actually seeing it. Now, that would be a pretty silly way to see the Sun, but you could definitely tell. And we can use that same approach, and we have to see the huge black hole in the center of the Milky Way for example.
Oh, I see. Maybe that's the problem is that the closest black holes to us is at the center of the bilk Away Galaxy.
No, that's the closest, really big one. It's like twenty seven thousand light years. I think that's pretty far away. There are closer black holes to us than the one at the center of the Milky Way. But they're not as large I see.
But there's a theory about what they sort of look like, which is like a black.
Ball, right, yeah, and there's other stuff near the black hole, right Like, say, for example, you have a black hole and it's near a star. What's it going to do. It's going to shred the star. It's going to suck all the stuff out of the star into the black hole. And you can see that. Also before stuff falls into the black hole, you can see it like on the way, you know. So for example, imagine there's like a you know, a hole in the sidewalk and everybody's falling into it. If you notice a trail of people walking along the sidewalk and then nothing on the other side, you're pretty much deduce, Oh my gosh, exactly. So there's lots of black holes where you can see the stuff falling into it because it sometimes it's like orbit once or twice before it falls in. This thing called the accretion disk, which is like the stuff orbiting the black hole before it comes in. And so a lot of times you can see that around the black hole. It's sort of like a warning like, you know, abandoned hope, all ye who fly near here because you are entering the black hole. Yeah, but that also brings up another really interesting point, which is like a black hole is not a hole. You know, it's a clever name and it sounds awesome, and it connects to the sort of geometric idea of like having a hole in the bottom of the rubber sheet. But I think most people think of a black hole as like a hole in space, like something you could fall into, right, But as you said earlier, black hole is something that's really dense, it's really heavy, it's really thick. You can't fall into it. It's more like a black mass or like a black rock. You know. It's like saying, can you fall into the earth, right, Like, you can't fall into the earth. You can fall onto the earth? Right.
Well, you're sort of assuming you know what's inside a black hole, right.
Well, we know it's really dense, right, we know that there's a lot of stuff in there.
But in terms of like space, like space is so distorted, it's sort of like a hole, isn't it. It's like the rubber sheet analogy. It is sort of a like a three D hole. It's through a hole in three D space.
Right, it's a gravitational well that you can't climb out of. But that doesn't mean that it's like empty inside. You can like once you go in, you can like dance all around. It's playing the room. Yeah, let's think about that. This sort of where is the edge of the black hole? And a lot of people think of the edge of the black hole as something we call the event horizon.
Okay, what's the event horizon? Besides being a bad science fiction movie with Sam Neil?
Sorry, the event horizon is another movie?
Yes, I see you're not up on your bad science fiction cinema.
Did this only come out in Panama?
No, this was a real movie. It had like Laurence Fishburn, I think Sam Neil. It was like a big deal. But anyways, so what is the event horizon of a black hole?
Yeah? So that's the point after which you can't escape, right, if you are closer to the center of the black hole than this, As I told, you can't escape outside of that, there's still a possibility inside there are no paths.
It's like you could escape, so if you could move faster than light. But even if you were like moving at the speed of light, you could not escape.
But be careful because people like to say, oh, maybe if you went faster than the speed of light, blah blah blah. But going faster than the speed of light, that's a whole other podcast. We should do. It's impossible, And so saying something like going faster than the speed of light is like saying like, well, then if you had magic, then sure all the rules would be off.
So like an Interstellar when they shared the black holes, this black sphere, that's the event horizon, right, that's like the edge of that sphere, black circle is the event horizon, because anything inside would just look black.
So is this a physics podcast or a film podcast?
A film sixth podcast?
No?
But I mean, I guess you know what. The reason I bring it up is that, you know, I think a lot of people have heard of the event horizon, right, and the conceptually what it is you can't escape after that. But like a representation of a black hole, that that circle is kind of the event horizon, right.
Yeah, you're exactly right. And so you would see like the accretion disk around the black hole, the stuff that's about to fall in, like what's on deck to get sucked up by the black hole. But do you right, the black hole itself would be black, and that's the event horizon. You're seeing the edge because you can't see anything in it. Nothing can escape it, right, and so it's surrounded by matter, which you can normally see. But the actual black hole itself is the edge of the event horizon. And that's what makes the questions so interesting. Because you can't see in there. People wonder what's in there. Einstein's original idea was that there was something called a singularity that's a point of essentially of infinite.
Density at the very center of it, right.
That's right, Yeah, an infinitely small space, right, super super dense. As soon as you cross some threshold of mass density, then you've created this hole in the bottom of the rubber sheet, a gravitational well. Then nothing can escape. But it's not necessary that the whole event horizon is filled in with mass. I think this is the point you were trying to make earlier. There's got to be a dense core in there somehow, but it creates a gravitation a well that's larger than that core. And so this is the original idea. Einstein's original idea was that there's this singularity, this really really dense point.
Okay, so maybe a black hole is like some kind of point surrounded by who knows, but it sort of goes out to the sphere of blackness.
That's going to be the name of our band, right, sphere of Blackness.
Or my next Panemanium, bad sci fi movie. I think that's.
There's so many concepts tied together into a black hole. But I think people still wonder what's inside a black hole because we're pretty sure that this idea of a singularity can't be right, pretty sure that there aren't singularities inside black holes.
So not even our theory about what's inside is right.
Yeah, And you know, Einstein's theory is wonderful and it's beautiful, and it's predicted lots of stuff which seemed weird but actually happens, like gravitational waves.
Right.
Einstein predicted gravitational waves, these ripples in space time when massive objects slam into each other or spin around each other.
One hundred years before we saw them, right, or hurt them as it may.
Yeah, yeah, decades and decades. I don't remember the exact date, but a long time before we saw them and the problem with Einstein's theory is that it doesn't include any quantum mechanics. And that's because we figured out quantum mechanics sort of at the same time or in the decades after general relativity. And something really important about quantum mechanics is that it doesn't allow things to be located in infinitely small spaces. There's a basic fuzziness to the universe, and you just can't violate that, right, And so having a singularity like a point of matter in its zero volume is you know, it would blow a quantum mechanics mind.
Right, But I guess technically quantum mechanics is about momentum, right, Momentum has a minimum size, right.
Well, it is about momentum, but it's about actually most measurable things like time, energy, space, and momentum. All these things come in finite grains like little quanta, little basic units that you can't get smaller than.
But even if what if like it's infinite mass like a black hole, or like infinite density.
Yeah, well, the quantum mechanics tells us that doesn't exist. You know that there's a there's a finite width to everything, and so you can't have infinitely small objects. Quantum mechanics says it just can't happen. Oh, something is happening in there, right, there's something going on inside a black hole, and whatever it is, it's intense enough and dense enough to create a black hole. You don't need infinitely small points to create a black hole. You just need a density above a certain threshold. General relativity tells us it's an infinite singularity, but quantum mechanics says it can't be infinite.
Right. Yeah, there's this idea that I thought was really cool that anything can become a black hole. Like if you squeeze it enough, it becomes a black hole. Right, Like if somebody squeeze me in my mass into a small enough volume, I would just like become a black hole. Right.
Yeah, it's a great idea. And I'm not sure like technically anything could become a black hole because you'd need to have a certain amount of mass per volume. But I guess in principle, if you can press something down far enough and it had some mass, then it would be dense enough to become a black hole.
Yeh.
And black holes don't have to be huge. Black holes can also be tiny. For example, we're trying to create black holes at the large Adron collider, and those would be black holes like the size of protons.
That is a great thought that I don't think a lot of people know, is that black holes can be different sizes.
Yeah.
Absolutely, you can have a tiny one, or a huge one or a super massive gigantic one.
That's right. And basically the only thing you can know about a black hole from the outside is its mass, which means its size, and it's rotation, so it's whether it's spinning or not. And so that's why we desperately want to know what's inside a black hole, beyond our just our curiosity. Like anytime there's something in the universe you can't it's something in your house, for example, that you aren't allowed to look inside, like I said, or I never look inside this box. You'd be deathly curious to see inside it.
Right, So you're saying, it's like the universe has created a box and it it refuses to tells what's inside.
That's right.
Well, this is a perfect point to take a break.
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Year this Friday and Saturday, starting at ten thirty pm Eastern seven thirty Pacific. If you could see inside it, you would learn something really deep about the way gravity works and quantum mechanics and how they're connected. Is like, you know, ten Nobel Prizes worth of stuff hiding inside a black hole, maybe even an actual Nobel Prize.
So that's the answer to the question. What's inside a black hole is fame and fortune.
A trip to Stockholm's. So what would happen if you try to get near a black hole? Okay, Well, this is something you have to understand, which is something called a tidal force, and the best way to understand it maybe is to think about what happens when things get near the Sun. For example. So one of my favorite examples came in nineteen ninety seven when this comet came into our solar system and approach really close to the Sun. It's called comet Shoemaker Levee.
Is that the one that almost missed Jupiter.
That's the one that slammed right into Wow? Yeah, okay, yeah, it was pretty awesome to watch cosmic collisions. But before it got there, it got torn apart by tidal forces.
Oh shredded, Yeah, it got shredded.
And say you're near a black hole, or you're near the Sun or something, then your head and your feet are not the same distance from the sun. And because gravity depends on the distance, so.
Like your head will be pulled in with greater force than your feet.
If your head are closer than your feet, then yeah, there'll be a stronger force on your head than there is on your feet, right, and effectively that means it's tearing you apart.
But the difference would have to be greater than the forces holding me together.
Exactly. Like right now, you are sitting on the Earth, and there is a greater force on the on your feet than there's on your head. So whatever part of your body is on the floor right now is feeling a stronger gravitational force in whatever part is elevated, right, because it's further from the center of the Earth, gravity falls like one of her distance squared. So that's a pretty big factor.
But the difference is not enough to overcome the forces that are holding me together. That's right, you're saying near a black hole, those differences are so huge you would actually shred your part.
Yeah, exactly, like that comet that came into the Solar System got shredded by Jupiter and by the Sun. If you got too close to a black hole, you would get torn apart before you got anywhere near it. So it's in my view it's impossible to get very close to a black hole unless you're incredibly strongly. You need to build an object with really really tight bonds. Right The things that are holding me together are the electromagnetic bonds between the atoms in my body, and gravity is constantly tugging on those. If I'm near the Earth or near the sun, tugging on those but you know, not so hard and where we've evolved to be strong enough to to not be shredded by the earth, but not it's strong enough to be to not be shredded by a black hole.
Right, So basically we may never be able to like go to a black hole and see what's inside.
Right, it's hard to imagine. I hate to say never. I have to say ever because it prescribes future generations intelligence and there's probably some genius out there as a clever idea for how to do it. It's not theoretically impossible to be near a black hole. It's just practically very difficult, which makes it, you know, a pretty tough engineering problem. So we know black holes are out there, we know they're mysterious, we know they contain some deep, dark secret. We don't think they contain the anti universe. I don't believe they contain.
Wormholes, but you don't know.
I don't know. No, they don't believe they contain worms or anything else weird. But I would love to get to know what's inside a black hole. I don't know about visiting one, or seeing one, or getting too close to one and getting shredded. I desperately want to know what's inside a black hole.
Maybe inside will find my marbles.
Lost for sure. All right, thanks everyone for listening to Daniel and Jorge explain the universe.
Thanks for listening.
Do you have a question you wish we would send it to us? We'd love to hear from you. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge One Word, or email us to feedback at Danielandhorge dot com. When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. House US dairy tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more.
There are children, friends, and families walking riding on passing roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved ones who need them to get home safely. Protect our cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too, Go safely, California. From the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans.
We're just days away from our twenty twenty four iHeartRadio Music Festival, preceded by Capitol On.
The biggest headliners in live music will be taking over to Mobile Arena, Las.
Vegas lost some special surprises and moments you are not going to want to miss.
Stream only on Hulu the iHeartRadio Music Festival.
And listen on iHeartRadio the most anticipated live music events of the
Year this Friday and Saturday, starting at ten thirty pm Eastern, seven thirty Pacific