Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseDaniel and Jorge explore the sticky subject of the strong force and one of its still unverified predictions
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Hey, Daniel, what's it like to discover a new particle of nature?
You know, it's a lot less dramatic than you might expect.
Oh really, there's no Eureka moment or some grand reveal.
It's usually a lot more gradual than like dropping a velvet curtain or something. It's more like watching water drain out of the tub to reveal the toys at the bottom.
You make it sound so exciting.
I'm not sure how Steven Spielberg is going to portray that in a moment of my life. But you know, it gets even worse. Sometimes we don't even agree about whether or not we did discover something.
Sometimes it's like it is that a toy at the bottom of the tub, or is that something else? But what do you mean? Like, sometimes you discover something and some people are like, no, I don't think that's the thing.
Yeah, we can basically disagree about anything in particle.
Physics, even about whether you disagree or not.
That's the one thing we can agree on.
I am more handmade cartoonists and the creator of PhD comics.
Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine. And when I got into this field, I really did think there were going to be more discoveries to be had.
Well, isn't it kind of up to you to make those discoveries? Why are you like you're complaining.
It's partially up to me, but it's also up to nature. You know, when you go out and do research, you never know what you're going to find, and you never know what's out there for you too fine. It's like the folks who were hoping to discover life on Mars. They worked hard, they did their job, they built their rovers. There just wasn't life on Mars for them, too fine, And it's sort of the same way in particle physics. It's been a little bit dry for us thirsty folks.
Mmmm.
Are you going to ask for your money back from nature or your career back?
I'm hoping the government doesn't ask for their ten billion dollars back. We'll have to auction off bits of the LHC.
Yeah, yeah, there you go, offer it the souvenirs like memorial you know, special keepsakes. You get a little bit of this super conducting magnet.
The world's nerdiest at sea shop bits of the LHC. There are actually people who've done salvage on the super Conducting super Collider in Texas. A lot of the equipment there was just abandoned and people have grabbed some of it and saved it as keepsakes.
A bit of people would buy a piece of the LC, right, wouldn't they. It's the thing that discovered the Higgs boson. That's kind of a big deal. Like you might actually find, you know, the little sensor pad that actually caught the first Higgs. Let's let's get in on that. Let's kill it on the Daniel and Jorge online shop.
It can be like pieces of the True Cross. We can sell more of them than actually existed.
Yeah, there you go. Amazingly it's magical as well. It multiplies the LHC. But what do you think you would have done if you and being a particle physicist someone who explores life on Mars.
Well, I actually did two degrees as an undergraduate physics and computer science, and I also applied to grad school and computer science. I was going to do artificial intelligence and machine learning, so that was sort of my other life.
Wow, man, I'm sorry to say, but you totally missed that boat. He would probably a billionaire, I guess. But then we wouldn't have this podcast, or we would we have a super popular podcast about Ki.
Yeah, but then i'd be responsible for people's self driving cars crashing and I don't know if I could handle that kind of responsibility.
Well, it's not your fault, it's the car's fault. That's why you give them sentience to absolve yourself of any responsibility.
Right right, just like we're not responsible for whether our kids grew up to be serial killers or not.
Exactly right, Wait, what what's going on with your kid there? Mebe it's your kids are already making a head.
I do wonder about those serial killers and whether their parents feel responsible.
Yeah, I thought you're gonna say I do wonder about my son. I was like, whoa. But anyways, Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.
We are not responsible for the incredible, crazy, bonkers, beautiful universe out there, but we do feel responsible for helping you to understand it. We dig in deep into what's going on out there in the universe, and we try to process it. We chop it up, and we serve it all up to you, hoping to educate and entertain you at the same time.
It's right Welcome to our two hundred and ninetieth course meal here on the amazing food for thought that is the universe. Because it is pretty awesome, and to be honest, I do feel a little bit responsible to that.
You know, you were reaching for a big number there, but I think the number of episodes is more like four hundred and eighty or something.
By now, oh my goodness, it's like the banquet that never ends. Like maybe it's more like a buffet where we take a bring on this food little by little.
That's right. Every course has to be super tiny for you to be able to finish course number five hundred. Eventually we'll get to dessert.
Now, do we reveal each course of this meal? Or do you just let the water drain and let the food say the good.
Bottom Every episode is letting the water drain and hoping that there's some understanding to be revealed.
That is how we record it. We just sit down, you start talking, and we hope that some knowledge comes out of it.
We hope there's gold and not a floating turret in that Baptob.
Oh Man, can you say that on our podcast? I guess you just did.
Let's see if it guests passed the sensors.
Which are you?
Yes? Crazy?
Well, speaking of pushing things out, let's dive into the topic of the episode here today. So it is, as we said, an amazing and incredible universe full of amazing and lots of little things, lots of little things out there that keep the universe together.
And over the last fifty years or so, we have pulled apart matter to reveal its basic constituents. We know that you are made of molecules, which are made of atoms, which are built out of electrons, protons, and neutrons. We've even pulled the protons and neutrons apart to discover that they are made of quarks. We have found other quarks out there, and other versions of the electron. We have this wonderful periodic table of the fundamental particles that we describe using the standard model, which paints a very nice picture of what's going on microscopically inside of me and you and at the hearts of stars.
That's right. We've come a long way from thinking that the universe and everything in it is made out of four things like earth, wind, and fire and water, to basically chop up the entire matter of the universe into smaller and smaller bits until we get to basically bits that you can't chop up anymore.
And it's been a really fascinating ride, not just discovering what matter is inside of us, which is mostly the upcork, the down cork, and the electron because you can assemble the upcork and the down cork into protons and neutrons and put the electrons around them to make atoms, but also to discover what else the universe can do. The things that we are made out of are the stable bits, the things that last forever and can get mixed together to make more interesting chemistry. But there are also other weird things that the universe can do, things that don't last for very long, so they take special conditions to reveal them.
Yeah, the universe has its own buffet of things that it can make out there, and not just the things that we can eat that make up who we are. There's lots of other things out there in the universe, and little by little we've put together a pretty complete picture of what's out there or what can be out there in the universe.
We have a whole fun series of podcast episodes about the discoveries of these particles. How the top quark was discovered, how the gluon was discovered, how the photon was discovered all these pieces of the Standard Model and we put them together into a picture and ask like, does it work? Are there any missing bits? And that's how some of those discoveries were made. We like assemble them together and we notice patterns. We say, huh, there's a hole here. I wonder if there's another particle missing. The way you can look at the periodic table and say, where's element thirty four? Why is there a thirty three and a thirty five? There should be one in the middle. In the same way, we filled in a lot of the gaps in the Standard model just by looking for patterns and hoping for simplicity and mathemat beauty and symmetry. And this has been a very useful guiding principle in helping us to discover things. That's how, for example, we knew to look for the Higgs boson.
Yeah, we have a periodic table for the fundamental particles of nature. It's called the Standard Model, and it does kind of look like the periodic table, right, It's a grid and you got little spas for all the different particles like quarks and electrons and neutrinos, and they're sort of in order. Also, it sort of looks like a periodic table.
Yeah, because there are patterns there. Like you can take the electron, the muon and the tow and you notice that they're increasing in mass. The muon is heavier than the electron, the tow is heavier than the muon, And the same pattern exists in the upcork, the charm cork, and the top cork. The charm in the top is just like heavier versions of the upcark. So we notice these patterns. We see these things in the table, and so we arrange our table in that way to bring out those patterns to like inspire us to think about what could be explaining them. And so there's sort of two directions to think about there. One is like, well, what's inside these particles? Is there a deeper layer of reality? And so that's definitely something we're exploring. But sometimes we look in the other direction and we say, well, what are the consequences of these particles? What can these particles do if this is real? If those particles are actually out there, what do we expect to see in our colliders? What can these things come together to make? And that's another very fruitful way to test our understanding of what's going on in the particle world.
Yeah, so we have a grit called the standard model, and it's called the standard model because they think it's standard and it's a model. But when did they come up with this name? I wonder? And how did they know it is going to be standard for the entire universe.
I knew you were going to have concerns about the names. The standard model itself comes out of the seventies when people realized that there were connections between the weak force and electromagnetism and that explained a lot of what we were seeing happening with the electron and the muons, and so they put this together into a model of leptons, which then became a standard model of leptons, and so it was sort of adopted around then. And the standard that sense, just sort of means like consensus. There are lots of different views of what was happening in particles, and this just sort of emerged as the most popular model, the one that people thought was the most parsimonious and explained what we were seeing, and it also predicted the Higgs boson, and so when we saw the Higgs boson in nature, people were like Yep, that's it. The standard model is the way to go interesting. It's it's like the thing that all physicists can agree on kind of mostly that can happen. It can happen, although of course there are lots of disagreements about what is the standard model. Some people, for example, say that the standard model requires neutrinos to have no mass, but we know neutrinos do have mass, and some people say no, no, we can have massive neutrinos in this standard model. And so there's a lot of disagreement about exactly what constitutes the standard model. Probably was a bad idea to call it standard in the first place.
Ye should have called it a model. But it's interesting because, like what you said is that it's not just a sort of like a listing of all the fundamental particles, kind of like the periodic table is. It's also kind of about the rules that govern what happens between the things in the table, and a lot of it is also just the math of how all these things work. Just like the periodic table. It's not just the listing of element it's also like a model of how the electron, you know, orbits around the nucleus and what happens when two atoms get close together? How do they share electrons and things like that. The Standard model also there's a lot more to it than just the listening to particles.
Yeah, exactly. We often focus on the matter particles like the upcork, the down cork, and the electron, but also in the standard model we have the force particles, the photon, the W, the z, the glue on. And as you say, you play a very important role in building things. Without the forces, you couldn't put the up, the down, the electron together to make ice cream or kittens or lava or hamsters or anything. Right, Really, the forces are required. And I often feel that way when somebody says, oh, the atom is mostly empty space, because they imagine the tiny little nucleus or the tiny electrons really far apart from each other in mostly empty space. But the truth is is not really empty. It's filled with fields, force fields and virtual particles tying them together. It's a swarm of oscillating energy. And so you're right, we need to think not just about the little bits of matter, but also the forces that tie them together and how that works and what those can do. And that's something we are still exploring, still trying to figure out.
Yeah, I think that's something that maybe a lot of people don't know. And I wonder if that's because, you know, when they discovered the Higgs Boson, it was kind of a big deal. At least that's what the headline said, that it was a big deal because it completed this standard model. The Higgs Boson sort of like was the cherry on top where it put the last little lego piece or jigsaw puzzle piece on the standard model, and then you guys were done, right. You could all retire and become hey experts or something.
We've been napping in our offices ever since. Yes, confirmed, Oh okay, that's good to know. Then I do want my money back, Please wait for the check. Yeah, And so it was sort of a big deal because they said they completed the standard model. But you're telling me maybe that it's not complete. Maybe it's something that people disagree about.
Still.
Yeah, well, it's not like the New York Times were liars or anything when they said it completed the standard model. That's true from one perspective. From the perspective of like looking at the periodic table of fundamental particles and saying do we have all the pieces necessary to make a complete theory? You know, are there any obvious holes? And so we had found the top core, We had found the Towe leapt on, and the last like definitely predicted missing fundamental piece, little jigsaw piece, as you say, was the Higgs boson. It was definitely missing, and we definitely needed to find it if the Standard Model was real, if it was a description of nature. And now we found it, and it clicks in, and we do have what we consider a fairly complete theory. Of course, it doesn't describe gravity or dark matter or all sorts of other crazy stuff. And we just did an episode about like the problems of the Standard Model. But you know, from one perspective, it really did complete it. It was like an obvious hole that needed to be filled. There're no more open holes in that sense, fundamental particles that the Standard Model predicts that we haven't found yet. From another perspective, there's lots of things left to study, you know, like how these particles dance together to make new things. That's not how these particles come together to make more interesting, complicated things. That's not something we fully yet understand. And there are lots of predictions there that have not yet been verified.
Yeah, I feel like you're pulling off a nice marketing trick here, where you're saying, like, what we did was awesome, and where's all that money, and we finished it, but there are still things less to do to keep giving us money.
That is the summer of every science grant proposal ever, basically, not just in particle physics.
I see, it's just a reflex for either.
Well, you know, that's the story. It's like, look, we did awesome stuff with the money you gave us, We will do more awesome stuff with the future money we hope you keep giving us. That's the way it works.
Well, like you said, there's still more to discover, I guess, or to check off about all of the things that the standard model predicts. And so one of those predictions is it's kind of an interesting sounding object.
It is a super fun prediction of the standard model, and one people have been hunting for for a long time and disagree about whether it's possible to find it or whether we already have.
It's a sticky subject. Well, to the end of the episode, we'll be tackling the question what is a glue ball that sounds like something that happens when you're playing with glue.
It does sound like a very everyday object, but it's also a very esoteric prediction by the standard model that's been surprisingly difficult to verify.
Actually, it does kind of sound like something that might be useful, like a ball made out of glue that then you can use to stick things together.
It sounds like the thing you could keep next to your rubber band ball. Yeah right, let's start selling those. You can get those on our online store now. Balls of glue, oh man, little bits of the LHC stuck inside.
Yeah, there you go. Or it's sticking together bits of the LAC even better.
How does the LEDC work it's held together with spit in glue balls?
Well that might be actually true, right.
That might be actually Trueious.
I mean, I'm sure a lot of physicists were drilling when they were putting it together. That's where all this bit comes from. Well, anyways, as usual, we were wondering how many people out there had heard of a glue ball or have any idea what it can be.
So thank you very much to everybody who answers these random questions. It's super helpful to get a sense for what people already know and what they think about these ideas.
So think about it for a second. What do you think a glue ball can be? Here's what people had to say.
It must be some silly ball made by kids to play with during lunch of reces. Yeah, I'm kidding. So glue ball is a very relatively new concept. It is basically combination of glue on particles without anyone and squawk.
A glue ball sounds like something to do with glue on. That's maybe like a ball of glue on, just a bunch of them just interacting and stuff, just hanging out.
A glue ball.
Yeah, I have no clue what that could possibly be. The only thing that comes to mind maybe is it might have something to do with glue ones. But other than that, I can't even begin to guess.
Uh, probably something my cat pukes after she ates some clue. I don't know. All right, sounds like we're not the only ones who thought it's a kit's toy or that it involves spit somehow from cats.
I feel sorry for that guy's cat. I mean, who lets their cat eat glue? Seriously?
I don't know, But are you responsible? If your cat eats glue, or is that the cat's faut.
I don't know. But if your cat turns out to be a serial killer, maybe you are responsible.
Well at least the cat wouldn't get far, very far. Just get stick to everything.
The sticky glue ball, serial killer.
Sticky cat.
The you mean, but I think a lot of these folks really got the idea from the name, right, A ball of gluons. Maybe this is actually a thing in particle physics that has gasp an appropriate name.
Well, I don't know, it's if it is a ball or not. I bet it's more like a teohedron or something.
I see you're gonna withhold judgment, All right, let's dig in.
Yeah, let's see what happens here. We'll step us through this, Daniel, What is glue ball?
So a glue ball is a predicted particle that would be made entirely of gluons, No quarks, no electrons, no other matter particles at all, just gluons.
M Okay. So it's a theoretical or a predicted object that can happen out in nature, and you would get it by putting together gluons. Now, what are gluons?
Right, So this is a predicted particle of the standard model. It says gluons should be able to come together and make this weird thing we call a glue ball. So to understand that, you have to understand what is a gluon. So, as we said earlier, each of the forces that are out there, the fundamental forces that we know about, get mediated in terms of fields, but you can also think about them in terms of particles, Like what happens when two electrons talk to each other, But they're doing it as they're pushing on each other, and they push on each other using their electric fields. But you can also think about those fields as like a swarm of virtual photons. So one way to think about how two electrons talk to each other is that they bounce photons back and forth. They're using photons to send messages to each other. So every force that's out there you can think about in terms of a field or the particle for that field. So for electromagnetism, we have the photon, which is the particle which carries the electromagnetic force, and then for the strong force, we also have fields, and those fields are gluon fields, and so the gluon is the particle that carries the strong force. So, for example, how do you make a proton. We make it out of up quarks and down quarks. How do you tie the upquarks and down quarks together into a proton? You use gluons, So inside the proton is not just upquarks and down quarks. There's a whole mess of gluons in they're holding it together.
Yeah.
We talked a little bit about this in our last podcast, about how photon are the particles that kind of mediate, like you said, the electromagnetic force, like every time an electron is repelled by another electron, or an electron is attracted to another particle like a proton, there's an exchange of photons. But we also kind of talked about how these are not like real, real particles, like they don't actually exchange these particles. It's more sort of like in the sense of like quantum virtual particles.
Right, Yeah, that's exactly right. I find it more intuitive to think about these things in terms of fields, like the electron has a field and it's using that field to push on another electron. But if you don't like the idea of fields, you can also think about these things in terms of virtual particles, and you just replace the field with an infinite number of virtual particles that are filling space. Mathematically, it's really the same thing. Those are the virtual particles, which you're not like real particles. But these fields are also capable of having real particles. Like what is a real photon, a photon that leaves the sun and hits your eyeball. That's a ripple in the electromagnetic field. And in the same way, a gluon, like a real gluon, is a ripple in the gluon field. So there can be virtual gluons exchanged between particles inside a proton, for example, And they're also real gluons that can fly through space.
Okay, so there are real gluons and virtual gluons, and so like you're saying, these are the particles that mediate or that transmit the strong force, which is what keeps quarts together to make protons and neutrons, and those are the nuclei and all of the atoms in your body. But maybe let's paint the picture of how these gluons actually keep things together, and then let's talk about what happens when you try to glue two gluons together. So let's get into that, But first let's take a quick break.
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All right, we're talking about glue balls, which is not a toy, but it is a pretty good name for a toy.
Yeah, that's right. Gluons sound ridiculous, but they are a real thing in particle physics and we use them in our calculations and exist in nature sticking your quarks together to make you okay.
So we talked about how gluons are the particles that transmit the strong force, and so you said they sort of come up when, for example, a quark is attracted to another quark. So maybe paint is a picture. I'm a quark and I have another quark here next to me, and I feel the strong force between us. What does that mean? Does that mean I'm like throwing glue ons at each other? Or does it mean that there are virtual gluons popping up in the space between us? Or what does that mean?
Yeah, the way you should think about it is that quarks have a field. That field is just like an electric field from an electron, But electrons have electric charges, which is what makes the electric field, and quarks have a different kind of charge. They have a charge for the strong force, which is a different force from electromagnetism, and that kind of charge we call a color charge because it has three different varieties red, green, and blue. So electromagnetism has like plus and minus charges. A color charge is much different and very weird, has three versions of it. Quark can be like blue or green or red, and so it can have a field, a color field, and that color field pulls or pushes on other things that have color charges to them. So, for example, that quark inside your proton has a color field, and that color field is applying a force to the other quarks inside the proton. And now you can always think about these fields in terms of virtual particles, and so the virtual particle for this field is a gluon. So one way to think about it is these quarks are bound together because of their color field that's putting forces on the other quarks, or that they're exchanging virtual gluons constantly to tie themselves together into a proton.
And you sort of need this idea of particles that transmit the force because these forces are not, as far as we can see, instantaneous, like from a quark here and you're a quark over there, I don't exert a force in you kind of immediately or magically right like there's something that has to somehow go from here to there.
No information can move instantaneously in the universe. And that's why, for example, if you take an electron, it has a static electric field, but then if you wiggle that electron, the whole field doesn't move all at once. If that field extends from here to your neighbor's house, But if you wiggle the electron, your neighbor can't tell that you wiggled it instantly. They have to wait for that wiggle to move through the field to get to him. And that's what we think of as a ripple in that field, which you can interpret as a particle. In fact, that's how you make photons. You take electrons and you wiggle them. That's what an antenna is. And so you can interpret these ripples in the field sometimes in terms of real particles. If they have certain properties special ripples, or if there are other kinds of ripples in the field, then we just call them virtual particles.
Okay, so now let's paint the picture. I have a quark right here in front of you, and it's a red cork, and you right next to me have a green cork, and so, which means that two quarks are sort of attracting each other right and pulling on each other to smush them together through the strong force. But they're not moving yet. What's happening? Are there like virtual glue popping up in between the two? Is my quark sending glu once to your quark? How would you describe it? Or nothing's happening until one of it moves.
Remember that these are quantum particles, so you can't really think of them as having like a specific location and velocity. The same way, you can't really think about the electron as having a specific location and velocity as it moves around the nucleus. Instead, you can think of it as having like a probability distribution of various possible locations around the nucleus. Because it's trapped in a little well. The nucleus creates an electromagnetic potential which traps the electron inside of it, and the electron is somewhere in that well, but we don't know exactly where. So in the same way, these quarks all create color potential, a strong force potential which traps the other quarks with them inside this potential. So where is any individual quark. Well, it's not determined, just as a probability distribution, but it's all balanced and solved, and all the quarks have a happy wave function to be on top of it each other inside this little potential well that they all create. So it's like a little bound state of these quantum functions.
I guess it's sort of like, you know, like you're saying, the quirk that I have here in my red quark isn't really like a billiard ball. It's more like a fuzzy cloud here that I'm holding, and then your quirk is also not a billiard ball, it's another fuzzy cloud. And so when I sort of bring them together, the two clouds kind of merge or smoosh together into one, sort of like a system made out of two particles. That's kind of what you're saying, right. It's like it's more like the two quantum functions or wave functions merge together to make one that maybe has some sort of potential to stay together.
Remember that quantum mechanics tells us that the universe is random, but it's not totally random. It's still deterministic in some way. Like old Newtonian classical physics told us that everything was like a billiard ball, and if you bounce things the same way twice, the same thing would happen. Everything was deterministic. Quantum mechanics says, well, we're deterministic, but only about the probabilities. Quantum mechanics says, I will predict exactly what the probability of various outcomes is. I want to tell you which outcome is going to happen, but i'll tell you the various probabilities. So here quantum mechanics applies to these little particles, and it says, well, your red cork has a higher chance of being over here and a smaller chance of being over there, and they have to satisfy all the mathematics of the equations. And so you can solve these equations and figure out where the red cork is likely to be, given that there's a blue cork nearby and a green cork nearby. Inside the proton, The really cool thing about the strong force is these weird charges. Like the atom is neutral because you have a positively charged nucleus and a negatively charged electron. Plus one and minus one makes zero, right, Well, the proton has no color charge because inside of it it has one of each of the charges. It has a red, a green, and a blue, and together those add up to make no color or white as we call it, in the same way that like having one of each of the electromagnetic charge plus and minus add up to zero electromagnetic charge.
And so that's how the quarks add up. But then where do the gluons come in?
So the gluons are super duper weird and much more complicated than in electromagnetism. Leftumagnetism, you have two charges and you just have the single photon which transmits it. The photon itself is not charged, right. The photon is a neutral object, which is going to be important because photons, they don't like bounce off of each other. They pass right through each other for the most part. Check out our whole podcast episode about lightsabers and photons bouncing off each other. But gluons are different. Gluons are charged in color. In fact, gluons have two colors. So for example, like a quark has one color like red or blue or green, a gluon has two colors simultaneously. It can be like red and anti blue or blue and anti green.
Does that depend on sort of like what the two quarks are that are interacting, Like if I have a red quark and you have a green quark, is it that they can only exchange red green or red and anti green bluons.
Yeah, it's just like that. If you have, for example, a blue cork and a green cork, the blue cork can emit a blue anti green gluon and then it becomes green. Its blueness has gone into the gluon and it becomes green because they also gave that gluon anti green. Then the green cork absorbs the blue anti green gluon and it becomes a blue cork. So like a blue cork and a green cork can swap colors by exchanging a gluon.
And so this swapping happens when they move relative to each other. Is it always happening at all times? Like with these virtual particles, what exactly is going on?
Well, like everything else quanta mechanical, nothing is definitive. So you have your quarks inside the proton, and none of them are like actually red, or actually green, or actually blue. They all have a probability to have one of those colors simultaneously. And if you really needed to know, you would like send a really high energy particle inside the proton to break it up to figure out what the color was, and then the universe would roll the die and say, Okay, this one happened to be green at that moment, or this one happened to be red at that moment. But just right now inside your proton, as everything is jiggling, each of your quarks has a simultaneous probability for each of these colors. But the fact that the gluon has to have these colors itself, makes it really complicated. So two gluons can also interact with each other the way two photons really cannot. Two gluons can talk to each other.
Directly, Okay, and you're talking about the real gluons or the virtual gluons.
Both all kinds of gluons. These fields all bounce off each other and interact with each other and make more gluons. Two gluons can come together to make two more gluons. It gets really complicated really fast, because everybody's talking to everybody else, all right.
So then gluons are particles just like an electron is where a photon is. That they have their own field in the universe. I'm trying to put the picture here together. And what they do is they sort of fly or exist between different quarks that have the color charge, and that's sort of how the strong force comes about, and they have different flavors, different colors, and sometimes these gluons can interact with each other, and I imagine they can also stick to each other, which is maybe where a glue ball comes.
In exactly, because they can talk to each other and they have charges relative to each other. They feel forces relative to each other. They can also get bound together. They can form complicated stuff.
But wait, if two gluons can interact and push on each other, what causes the push. Is there a force another force particle just for transmitting the strong force or the glue force between gluons.
No, they can push on each other directly, the way like a photon can push on an electron directly. That's an immediate interaction. Those two fields couple and energy can flow from one to the other. Gluons can talk to each other directly without any other intermediate particle. Like quarks can't talk to each other directly. They have to use photons or gluons, whatever. But those photons can talk to quarks or two electrons. Gluons can talk to each other directly, like in the language of finement diagrams. You can have a vertex that's just like gluon gluon, gluon or four gluons in fact, can make a vertex, so you don't need an intermediate field. This is the field and it can talk to itself.
And that's kind of weird, right, because, for example, the photon is another particle that transmits forces. But it can interact with itself.
That's right. It can't interact with itself, so you can't have like a light ball. There is ball lightning out there, I think people think, but it's not like photons bound together in the same way, but gluons because they can do this, they can talk to each other, they can feel forces relative to each other, they can create a little potential well and trap each other inside, and they can make we think this particle called a glue ball, which is a particle made just out of gluons, which is really weird because it would have no maps that are particles inside, no fermions at all, no electrons, no quarks, nothing that we think of as making up matter. It would be pure force.
Now, do gluons only attract each other or do they also repel each other? Or does it depend on what color combination they are?
It depends on the color combination. It also depends on the distance. The strong force is super duper weird, and it's very attractive at some distances and repulsive at other distances. And the strong force in general is very difficult to understand and also to do calculations with one because it's so strong, like a lot of times when we're doing calculations, the actual calculation we want to do is impossible. Say, for example, I want to know how an electron is going to move through the universe. To really know that, I have to account for like all the electrons that are out there, the electrons in other galaxies. Technically those affect my electron, but because they're so far away, I can ignore it, I'll mostly get the right answer. That's not true for the strong force. The strong force is so strong, so so powerful, that a lot of these effects, other quirks in other places and gluons that are created by other gluons become very very difficult to calculate and are not small effects. And so the approximations that help us succeed in doing otherwise impossible calculations for other forces, those tricks don't work for the strong force. So a lot of basic stuff about the strong force we just don't know how to calculate because gluons can do this thing where they create other gluons, and because the force itself is so powerful.
Mmmm. Well, going back to my question, I guess is like, what makes two gluons attract each other? Is it like all the red ones attract anything with red or repel anything that has read in it. You know, like you have a red blue gluon, what does it get attracted to a green blue.
Well, you can't have a red blue gluon. You can have like a red anti blue or a blue anti red, or like a red anti red gluon. But whether they're attracted to each other or repel to each other, it depends on a lot of complicated calculations. I mean, the attraction comes from like having a potential homeber all forces in the universe really come from potential differences. Forces are due to changes in the potential. Things like to roll down hill as a gravitational force because the gravitational potential energy is lower at the bottom of the hill, or electrons are pushed towards the nucleus because that's where the bottom of the electromagnetic potential is. So to think about things in terms of forces pulling or pushing, you have to understand where the potential is at a minimum, and that's really complicated. For the strong force, it's not always that simple. Remember we even try to talk about it once for the weak force, and it's not always obvious whether for examples, W bosons and Z bosons push or pull on each other. They can do both or sometimes it depends on the context. And that's even more complicated here for the strong force. So in some arrangements, these gluons can tug on each other, create a potential minimum and get trapped in this well and become a bound state.
Okay, So I'm getting to say is that it's complicated. It's complicated, but it can seem to happen throughout if you sort of pierce through all of the math, there are situations where you can get a couple of two or maybe more gluons kind of wanting to hang out with each other, really close together. That's kind of the idea I'm getting.
Yeah. From the calculations, which are not perfect and are approximate, and nobody is one hundred percent confident in them, we see this prediction emerge that gluons should be able to get bound to each other and create this persistent state that lives for a little while, not forever. It's not stable. It's not like you can make a glue ball and then come back a billion years later and still have a glue ball, but very briefly they'll hang out in this little state, do their thing, and then explode into a shower of other particles. That's the prediction.
And so when they come together, that's what you would call a glue ball, except ironically, the gluons don't stick.
Around very well.
They're not as sticky as we'd like to be.
Gluons are not sticky. You mean glue balls that don't stick together, and saying this is a good.
Name, maybe in supersymmetry we'll have super gluons and those will make super glue balls that will really stick together.
There you go, all right, So then so glulons can't stick to each other, and then you think this happens. Now, does this happen with real gluons or virtual gluons or it can happen to both.
This happens from real gluons. So if you create enough real gluons, they can come together to make a glue ball in the same way that, for example, if you make quarks, you make a spray of quarks. Quarks do not like to be a part. If two quarks are very far apart from each other, there's a huge potential energy there, and that potential energy gets turned into other particles, and those particles quickly find partners and form masons and baryons. Those are combinations of pairs or triplets of quarks. So, for example, you have protons or pions or k masons or all sorts of other stuff. You know, at the large hadron collider, when we smash two protons together, we expose the quarks inside them. Briefly, we get these sprays of quarks and gluons, but they really don't like to be by themselves, and so they quickly create these streams of other particles with them, and then they form these states. And so what we actually see in our detector are streams of like protons and chaons and neutrons and all sorts of other stuff. So quarks do this, they find partners and form other states. And so we think that maybe gluons can do this too, that like two or three gluons can come together and make something we call a glue.
Ball, because the math is telling you that they are sort of compatible, that there is sort of a way where you can put together two or three gluonts where they'll want to stick together.
Exactly, and they will be color neutral, they will be white. You can match all their colors together to make a color neutral object, which in principle should last for a little while.
All right, well, let's dig a little bit deeper into what a glue ball is like and whether or not we found it, and if we have, what does it mean about our understanding of the universe. But first, let's stick another quick break.
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All right, we're talking about a very sticky subject, glue balls, which is what happens when you potentially get a couple of gluans together. They'll maybe stick to each other and warm. Basically a ball of glue.
Yeah, a literal ball of fundamental glue.
It sounds like you're saying that if you take a couple of gluons and they do stick together, then they wouldn't be sticky anymore because it would all sort of cancel each other out in terms of their charge. Right, So would a gloueball be sticky at all? It wouldn't, right, it would just be neutral.
That's a great point. They'd be sticky on the inside, right, but all the stickiness would be reserved for the other gluons. On the other hand, you know, that's also truer protons. Technically, protons have no color charge, and yet if you bring a bunch of protons together, they can get stuck together from the residual color charge. If you're on one side of the proton, you might be closer to one of the quarks than the others, so the charges don't exactly balance, and that's how the nucleus is together. So in principle, it might be possible to like have a bunch of glue balls and have them all stick together. But yeah, they're stickiest on the inside for sure.
You mean they might be sticky on the outside. But from afar, a glue ball would not be very gluey.
Yeah, a glue ball technically has no no color charge and no electric charge either.
All right, well, what else can you tell us about these theoretical glue balls.
So it's predicted that if these gluons exist that they would not be very very heavy. You know, they would only be like one to five giga electron volts in mass, which is not that heavy. You know, a proton is about one giga electron volts. So we're talking about something that's like one to five times as massive as the proton, and that sounds like something we should be able to discover because our collider has found things that are much much heavier. We're usually limited by the energy. You want to make something really massive, you have to pour enough energy into the collision to make that thing, because remember energy and mass are sort of interchangeable. You want to make a heavy Higgs boson you have to have enough energy of one hundred and twenty five protons in your collision. But our collider is super powerful. It's thirteen thousand GeV in the collision, so there's plenty of energy to make heavy stuff. Glue balls are really pretty light in comparison. They're not really very massive. There are only a few proton masses worth.
Well, it's interesting that they have mass, right the gluons, Like, does an individual gluon have mass by itself? It's a force transmitting particle, Does it have mass on its own?
It doesn't. Gluons themselves do not have mass, like photons do not have mass. But a glue ball would have mass the same way that like a proton has mass. Most of the mass of a proton doesn't come from the quarks that make it up, Like a proton is one GeV, but the quarks inside of it are like one percent of that mass. Most of the mass of the proton actually comes from the gluons inside the proton. Because remember that mass is this weird thing. It's not just like how much stuff is inside something. It's all of the internal stored energy. So if you have a bunch of energy stored in the bonds between your quarks. That counts towards your mass. And that's true for other kinds of things, like if you could get a bunch of photons and store them inside something, even if they're mass lists, they would add to the mass of that object. In fact, you take a rock and it absorbs a photon, that rock gets more massive because it's now absorbed that photon's energy. So mass is a weird thing. You can make it out of massless stuff.
Well, we talked about before, and I know we talked about this in our book. Frequently asked questions about the universe that the mass doesn't really exist, Like mass is just energy, and what you think of as gravity or inertia is really just what happens when you kind of concentrate energy in one little spot. And so that's kind of what's happening here. It's like an individual gulon doesn't have mass, but when you put it together with another glon, you're sort of trapping energy in one spot and then suddenly you've got a little spot of energy and so that feels gravity and it feels inertia.
Yeah, that's what we call mass, right, that's inertial mass. Is localized. Internally stored energy has this property that if you push on it, it takes a force to accelerate it. That's what we call inertial mass, and that's kind of a weird and deep mystery of the universe. But yeah, you can make it out of massless stuff, you say, as long as you concentrate some energy in there. And glue balls definitely have energy inside them. These gluons have energy even though they are massless.
All right, Well, it sounds like a glue ball is not really sticky, and like you're saying, it's also unstable, Like it's not only not sticky, but it doesn't want to stick to it's over.
Yeah, like many of these particles, it's unstable. You know, the proton is a very unusual particle because it is stable, but every other combination of quarks, for example, is unstable. Even the neutron will fall apart in about eleven minutes. And these other particles, pions and chons, they're created, they live sometimes very briefly before they spray out into other lighter particles. And the glue ball is no different. It's a combination of these strong color charged particles. But it also decays into other stuff. And so for example, glue ball can turn into two photons, or can turn into like four quarks, or a shower of gluons or all sorts of other stuff.
You can get showered with blue bits.
Yeah, they can basically explode and do little bits of glue.
Wow, doesn't sound very glue like at all. I'm slowly ungluing your use of the name glue here. Oh man, Well, I get The big question now is have we found glue balls. They're theoretical, we think they can exist and maybe exist out there using our math, but have we found one? Have you ever seen a glue ball?
The weird thing is that we're not sure. Sometimes it's very obvious when you've discovered a particle because there's only one thing that it can do and nothing else can do that. So, for example, when we discovered the Higgs boson, we didn't see the Higgs directly, but we saw pairs of photons that it decayed into that were flying apart from each other with a very specific characteristic energy. We found lots and lots of examples of photons with those kinds of energies, and we said, this can only really come from the Higgs boson, and therefore we're pretty sure we found the Higgs boson, and the key there is that it was doing something unusual, something that made it like stick out from the background. Now, glue balls are much more complicated because number one, we're not exactly sure what they can do, Like, we're not sure exactly how much mass they have. Maybe they have one gv, maybe they have five GeV. Maybe we're wrong and they have like fifty GV. We're not sure because the calculations we talked about are very complicated and make a lot of approximations that nobody really believes are right, and we hope didn't mess up the calculations. And also there's lots of other particles down there, like the Higgs boson we found it where there are very very few particles of that kind of mass, very heavy particles, but there's lots and lots of very light particles. If you look at the list of particles, there's like hundreds of particles around one GeV, all sorts of crazy combinations of quarks. So it's hard to pick out a new one and say, oh, this one is a glue ball, especially because we're not exactly sure what a glue ball would look like.
Hmmm, I say, the theory doesn't predict what it would look.
Like, so the theory is impossible to do perfectly. There's lots of approximations people have made, and they make different predication. Some predict like one point four GeV, some predict five GeV, and they also give different predictions for how these things might appear. You know, these glue balls have different properties from the other particles, like they're weird internal spin and other quantum states. Those might make like characteristic signatures, you know, like how they turn into other particles and how those particles look there were angles between each other and the relative spin states and this kind of stuff. But again, different theoretical calculations make different predictions here, and it's also sometimes hard to disentangle from what we're seeing out there. So, for example, there is a particle that people have found that has about one and a half GeV. It's called the f zero, and there's a raging debate in the literature about whether or not it is a glue ball. Some people say this is totally consistent with the glue ball, and other people say no, look, it can do this and that, and gloe balls shouldn't be able to do that, so we don't think it's a glue ball. Nobody can really agree about whether the F zero is a glue ball or not.
Who wait, wait, wait a minute. You've discovered a particle out there, you gave it the name F zero, but you don't know what it is. What do you mean you don't know what it is? What do you mean you've found something that you don't know what it is. Wouldn't that be a big deal.
So we found this particle, we've seen it decay into like two pions or into four pions, right, and so we know that it exists. We can see that it's there. Like you find the pions, you add up their energies, they're consistent with a particle of mass one and a half GeV. That doesn't mean that we know what's inside the F zero, Like, is the F zero made out of two quarks? Can you explain what the F zero is doing just using quarks or do you need this special gluon state to explain it. People disagree about whether what the F zero is doing can be explained using only quarks or requires gluons to explain it.
I see, So you're not quite sure if you found a particle, you found something that could be a particle.
We found something. The F zero is definitely something. It exists, we're just not sure what's inside of it. Like, is the F zero made out of quarks or is it made out of gluons? Nobody's on und percent sure because it's a mess down there. It's hard to make very precise measurements of what the F zero is doing. We're sure it's there. Nobody's doubting that the F zero is real. They just don't really know exactly what it's doing and what it's made out of.
Well, are people looking for glons or is this something you're just looking at from the debris of other experiments? Is there like a glue ball experiment other and are the scientists called glue ballers.
This is a really exciting frontier in particle physics, but also very very difficult. You know, it's a place where we don't have crisp predictions and it's really hard to see what's happening because everything is a big, messy spray of particles. It's not like very crisp and clear one photon, one electron bouncing off of each other. Like in the early days, you get like a big mess of stuff and you have to sift through. But there are dedicated experiments just to understanding the strong force and specifically to understanding gluons. So at Jefferson Lab and the East Coast of the United States is an experiment called glue X. I don't know if they pronounce to gluks or GlueX or glueks. I'm not exactly sure, but it's an experiment that's running right now to study specifically glue ons. What can they do, Can we find glue balls? Can we see it doing other stuff maybe that we didn't expect.
Have they found anything?
They have not yet found confirmation of glue balls. They're trying to study this f zero, but they don't have enough data yet to confirm whether or not that's real and understand it's decay products. So far, they've been putting out preliminary studies and understanding all sorts of other things. This is a sort of general powerful detector that can study lots of different things about the strong force, because whether glue balls exist is one question, but there's so many other questions about what's going on. With the strong force, and this is exploring a lot of them.
Would you say then that they're kind of stuck at the moment.
I would say it's a sticky question. Yeah, for sure.
Well let's see if they do find glue balls. And it's kind of an interesting idea because I think, as you're saying, it's not just about finding the glue ball themselves. It's about understanding how the strong force work works, right, Like, it's one of the fundamental forces of nature. It that's what keeps our nucleus in our atoms together. But it sounds like we don't really sort of like know everything about it or know exactly how it works, and so finding or not finding a globball will sort of tell you a little bit about what's going on at that level.
Yeah, that's exactly right. The same way that understanding the structure of the atom has taught us a lot about electromagnetism. You know, why electrons fill these shells. The hyper fine splitting of electron energy levels has led to a really deep understanding of magnetism and spin and electricity and all this kind of stuff. You know, seeing these forces in action, what kind of complex things they can do, or reveals their fundamental nature. So we're trying to do the same thing for the strong force, like see the strong force in action, see what it's capable of, what it can't do, and that'll tell us if we understand what it's doing or not. But in the end, it's much harder than it is for electromagnetism because it's more complex. Instead of one photon, we have eight gluons of all sorts of different colors, slashing around and banging into each other and confusing each other. It's like having a conversation with eight Toddlers at the same time.
Every physic is a dream. But it sounds like it is a prediction of the current standard model, Like our current model of the universe does predict that glue balls should exist, and so if you find them, it would be another confirmation, maybe the final confirmation about the standard model. But if you don't find them and you can conclusively say that they do not exist, then maybe we need to rethink our whole model of the universe.
Yeah, that's exactly right. It would be almost as big a deal as discovering the Higgs boson. If we did find confirmation of a glue.
Ball or not a confirmation of a glue ball.
Yeah, if you could prove that glue balls don't exist, that would also be fascinating.
I can just see the headline. Scientists fine glue balls do not exist.
Scientists fail to find glue balls.
Again, Scientists get stuck with blue balls. All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, See you next time.
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