Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseDaniel and Jorge answer listener questions about gravity, the CMB and distant disappearing objects!
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Terms apply. Hey Orgey, I have a pitch for a new kind of superhero.
M I think we're all full up on superheroes.
No, no, but this one, this one stay with me will be scientifically.
Accurate OOO, so it'll be like a super physicist. Does he happen to you know, wear glasses, live in California and be called Daniel.
Not at all. No, no, So you've heard of Magneto, one of the X Men's, those who can control things with magnetism, of course. So I was thinking, let's have a whole team of superheroes, one for each fundamental force and have them be like accurate.
Oh interesting, except I vote not to be the weak force. So there's there going to be like a Gravito then and a strong Eto.
Yeah, and Gravito will be really really really weak, but super patient, and in the end we'll control the shape of the universe.
Oh the bad guys wins. That's a twist.
Got to keep the sequels coming until.
Maybe the weak fource gets super strong blow twist. Hi am Poorham, made cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics.
Hi.
I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at U c Irvine, and I have a superpower, which is that I can sometimes pronounce the title of my job sometimes.
What kind of superpower is that it only works in extreme situations through like the Hulk.
Well, one listener wrote in to complain that I sometimes mispronounce the word physicist, and I'll admit it's a tricky word. I stumble over it. Physicist, physinessicists, it's got a terrible.
Name to it.
I guess you never have to say the word very often because you're just surrounded by physicists all the time.
Yeah, we say the word physics a lot, but we don't call ourselves physicists very often.
M you call yourself professors, I.
Guess explorers of the universe when we're feeling grandiose.
I see he's walking to the office every day and you're like, hello, fellow explorers of the universe, what's.
Your plan for napping today? Fellow nappers of the universe?
Hello, fellow diviners of truth.
But you know you are a cartoonist, which means you do cartoons. So you think, since I do physics, I should be a physicsist. But it's not physicsist, it's physicists.
Well, English is not my first language, so I'm not even going to pretend to know the difference.
And you know, in French, someone who does physics is a physician, so I think a lot of French physicists call themselves physicians.
Interesting. I wonder if people then confuse you with real doctors.
I don't ask people to take off their pants nearly as often.
But anyway, Welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.
Where we are all explorers of the universe seeking to understand the nature of this bonker's reality, which seems to follow rules as weird and strange as they may be. We encourage you to join us in our journey to understand the nature of those rules and to pick away slowly at the mysteries that remain.
Yeah, because it is a pretty mysterious universe, full of headscratching things that happen and mysterious objects out there that are just floating in space, baging us to ask the question what is it? And what's going on with you?
And it's not just those of us who can't pronounce our job titles who are curious about the nature of the universe. Wondering how the universe works and where it came from and how it all fits together is something almost everybody out there does who doesn't want to know where the universe came from and what its final fate will be.
Yeah, because curiosity is a very human trade. Everyone looks at the universe and wonders, you know, what's going on? How did that come to be? And why are we here? And how is it that we're here asking these questions on a podcast?
And curiosity is sort of our brand, Jorge. We work a lot on projects and encourage people to be curious, from this podcast to our books to our TV show. You ever get curious about curiosity? Like why are humans so curious?
Interesting? Sounds almost like the plot of a movie that's coming out on PBS Kids pretty soon.
That sounds like a wonderful journey to me.
It is. That is the name of our special for eleanor Wondrous Fly, which is coming out in April, so if you have kids, but please check it out. It's a movie we wrote, it's got awesome songs in it, and it's all about why we ask questions.
And we ask questions about the universe, but we also want to hear about your questions. The fact that you're listening to this podcast means that you are curious not just about how butterfly wings evolve, but about how space and time fit together, what we can see at the edge of the universe, and how the universe might fundamentally be different if we tweaked the deepest laws of nature. So if you are curious about how the universe works and you have a question that you haven't heard an answer to, please don't be shy. Write to us to questions at Danielanjorge dot com. We answer everybody's questions.
Yep, because everybody has questions. This is a very active podcast. I feel like you cannot just listen to us talking about questions or answering questions. You can also ask questions and you will answer them, and sometimes we even answer them here on the podcast.
Yeah, some questions are super fun and I think other listeners would like to hear the answer to them, or they're a little bit tricky and I have to go read something or think carefully about exactly how to phrase the answer because there's a lot of subtleties involved, and they're just a lot of fun to talk about on the podcasts because I know that at least one person out there wants to hear the answer.
Yeah, and so today own the podcast, we'll be tackling listener questions. Number twenty seven is the twenty seventh time we answer listener questions. Daniel, and I feel like maybe at this point we should drop the numbers and just go with like, you know, just a fun subtitle, you know, like they do in movies now, where there are so many sequels that you don't use numbers.
Listener questionestions, no way home.
And listener questions, the return, listeners strike back, listener questions, the questions awaken.
Hopefully we won't get to listener questions the last question.
No hopefully yes? Right, but isn't that the goal of all of physics and physicists is to get to the last question ever.
Know, the goals to answer today's questions, which will generate tomorrow's questions. We live for questions. We don't want to figure everything out. We want to continuously ask questions.
Right, You just want to be able to say you're physicists forever.
Today I can't say I'm a physicist, So I'm hoping to one day figure that out.
You got to activate that superpower, Daniel, You got to figure out your triggers. But yeah, we have some awesome questions here from listeners like you, and they're all over the place. Are about the observable universe and the cosmic microwave background. They're about gravity and the forces, and they're also about the disappearing and Daniel, just to be clear, nobody was required to take off their pants to ask these questions. Right, we have a strict pants policy in this podcast. Right, I'm wearing pants.
We don't actually have a strict pants policy. So I have no idea. I can make no statement about what pants these people are or are not wearing. But if you'd like, in the future, I will inquire about what people are wearing when they record these questions.
That's maybe not.
I think we should be pants agnostic.
Yeah, yeah, let's be pent agnostic. Yeah all right, well let's jump into it. Our first question here comes from Jeff, and Jeff has a question about the observable universe and the cosmic microwave background.
Hi, Daniel, Jorge and special guests contributors. I'm Jeff from downtown PA. If the observable universe extends only as far as light as that time to reach us, and that fast as the light expansion precludes us from ever seeing galaxies beyond, how is it that we can still image the cosmic microwave background, which should prevate any cosmic structures. Thank you again, for keeping us educated, wondering, curious, and entertained.
Awesome. Thank you Jeff for that question, And in a shout out to Allentown, Pennsylvania, Dan, I feel like Jeff asked a pretty good gotcha question, Like I'm wondering how we're going to answer this one.
Jeff asked a question which really exposes a lot of subtle issues in understanding how far we can see in the universe as the universe is expanding, and as that expansion is accelerating, and so there are a couple interesting issues here, like what is the oldest thing we can see? And what is it that we cannot see in the universe?
Right right, There's a lot of sort of concepts here in this question, Like, first of all, it's this idea of the observable universe. Then also the expansion of the universe, which is presumably maybe at some point going faster than light. And then there's also the concept of the cosmic microwave background, which is kind of like the remnant light from the Big Bang exactly.
And so the basic concept to understand is that as we look further and further away, we're seeing things that are older and older. We're looking back in time, and that's just because it takes time for light to get to us from Earth. So we're looking at a distant star that's really far away. We're not seeing it as it is today. We're seeing it as it was when that light left it, and it doesn't look like that today, and it's probably in a different location today. And so as we look further away, we see further back in time, which is actually super awesome and really useful for doing science because we get to see the history of the universe, not just the way it looks today.
Right.
Yeah, And the whole reason is that light takes a while to get to places, right, Like, light isn't infinitely fast. It has the speed of light, and it's it's limited, and so space is so big that there's still stuff like coming at us, like coming at us that started maybe billions and billions of years ago.
That's right. There are photons arriving today their location billions of years ago, and they are just now arriving. You can imagine, like our past light cone. You know, things that are closer can have left more recently and be arriving right now, and things that were really far away the light had to leave a long time ago in order to reach us right now. But those two photons can be arriving at the same moment from different locations and also different times in the past.
Yeah, and it's sort of coming at us from all directions, which makes it more of a bubble, right than a cone kind of right, it's more of like a bubble around us, which is as far as we can see, because anything further the light just hasn't reached us.
Yeah, in one dimensions, it would be like a light triangle, and two dimensions would be like a light cone. But you're right, in three dimensions, it's sort of harder to imagine. It's like a conoid. It would be the geometrical term.
I think you need a superpower just to pronounce that. There.
And so as we look further back in time, we're looking further into the past, and so we can see, for example, how galaxies formed. We can see things that have sp a billion years after the Big Bang. We can see things that happened five hundred million years after the Big Bang. We can keep looking further and further back in time.
Right, And so there's this sort of bubble around us of things we can see. But Also, at the same time, the universe is expanding, so the bubble and the things in it are sort of flying away from us, or at least getting stretched away from us, which is kind of makes it tricky, right, It does.
Make it tricky. The whole thing is pretty complicated and hard to hold it in your head. First, let's imagine the universe was not expanding. Then, you know, the bubble we could see would be growing as time went on, and we'd have no problem seeing the cosmic microwave background. We could see things before structure formed. Now you don't have to see a galaxy in order to see stuff. You just need to see light. So the cosmic microwave background is light from the first plasma before structure was formed. When the universe became transparent. We can't really see before that because the universe was opaque, but we can see past the earliest galaxies all the way to the cosmic microwave background radiation. Right, So that's if the universe was not expanding. Now Jeff says, well, the universe is expanding, and it's expanding faster than light, which means some parts of the universe we will never see. And he's right there, are things that are so distant past, like sixty five billion light years, where the light will never reach us because the universe is expanding, as we'd like to say, you know, if Ussein Bolt is running towards you and somebody's laying track in front of him faster than he's running, he's never going to get to you. So there are photons moving at us, but they're moving through parts of the universe that are receding faster than the speed of light, so they will never reach us.
Right, It's like we can see this bubble around us, but there's also sort of another bubble that's maybe bigger than that of stuff we haven't seen yet. And then we'll also never see because at the same time that we're seeing this bubble, space is expanding, and so there's maybe stuff out there beyond the bubble we can see that maybe we'll never see, right, because it's moving it too fast.
That's right. The current edge of the observable universe is forty six billion light years away, but there's another edge sixty three billion light years away, and stuff beyond that we will never see, Like it doesn't matter how long you wait, we will never see it because the universe is expanding so fast that those photons will always be moving through space that's moving away from us faster than the speed of light, and so we will just never see it, assuming, of course, the current cosmological model is correct and that expansion continues in the same way that it does. But then Just's question is, so, then how is it possible to see the CMB if there are parts of the universe that are moving away from us so fast we'll never see them, right.
Yeah, that's kind of mind blowing to think about. Like, at sixty five billion light years, there's like a sun right there that's shining and it's throwing a photon at us, but that photon is like sort of fighting against the stretching of space and just will never get to us.
That's right, it's moving through it's space at the speed of light. But the distance between us and that photon is actually increasing, right, The proper distance between us and that photon is growing, even though it's moving through space towards us, right, because space in front of it is expanding.
It's like there's new space growing between us and that photon rate that's higher than three hundred million meters per second, Right.
M M.
And if we were relying on seeing light from the CMB that came from super far away cosmic microwave background plasma, then Jeff is right, we would never be able to see it. What we are seeing when we look at the CMB is not light that was emitted from that far away. It was actually emitted from pretty close to us. It's just taken forever to get here because the universe has expanded while those photons fly through the universe.
Right.
I think maybe what Jeff is thinking is that, you know, there is a background of like light that came from the Big Bang. And you know, the word background means like it's in the back, right, So he's probably maybe thinking that this cosmic background comes from like way further out, like since the further out we look, the further back in time we look. He's thinking maybe the source of this life is like the you know, the basically the background of the universe. And so he's wondering, like, if the background is moving away from us faster than light, then how can that background get to us? But you're saying, I think is that it's not really like in the back, it's like everywhere.
It is In fact, everywhere. The CMB was emitted everywhere. There's a patch of the universe where we are right now, there used to be plasma right here, and it emitted CMB light. And that CMB light is flying away from us, and it's been flying away from us for the whole universe, and it's now almost forty six billion light years away, right, not exactly forty six billion light years, because it was admitted a little bit after the universe started, like you know, a few hundred thousand light years. And similarly, the CMB light that we are seeing right now was emitted from stuff which is now almost at the edge of the observable universe, right, so it did have time to get here. It's within the edge of the observable universe. Interestingly, though, when it admitted it, it was much much closer, like it was probably only a few tens of millionions of light years away when it emitted that light. But the universe has been expanding so much that it took thirteen billion years to cross what was originally forty two million light.
Years, right. The same is true for the stars that are at that distance, right, Like the light we're getting from the edge of the observable universe is from stars that it used to be closer.
To us exactly. So the patch of the universe which now occupies like a sphere with radius forty six billion light years, used to be much much smaller. Right the universe is expanding rapidly, and so basically we are seeing what used to be a tiny little bubble of the universe. Something which was fifty million light years away from us at the very beginning of the universe is now outside the edge of the observable universe. We'll probably never see it because it's all expanded. So the CMBU light we're seeing today started out forty two million light years away, has been struggling to get to us for billions of years, and has now just arrived. We see it today, and we think the plasma that emitted it, that stuff is now forty six billion light years away.
I think maybe the key point here is that the cosmic microwave background was sort of like made everywhere in all directions at the same time, you know, like it wasn't like one event that flashed and then now the light is getting to us. It's like even where we are right now, like this batch of space that I'm occupying here on my podcast studio, like this space around me generated some microwave background radiation at some point in the past, but now that light has just gone right. It's like it when not in all directions, but the same thing happened all over space, like between here and the observable universe, the edge of it. There was stuff being generated at every point.
Yeah, and I think a lot of people have a misconception that the universe started as a point and then expanded and at some moment it was this little ball of plasma that emitted that light, and they wonder, like, why is it We can see it right now, and you're right, the answer is that that's true. But if it wasn't just a little ball, the whole universe was filled with this plasma. The Big Bang wasn't just when one spot, It was everywhere, and so everywhere in the universe had these little balls of plasma. And as time goes on, we continue to see the CMB, but we see different slices of it. We see light from different pieces of that infinite universe plasma.
Right, I wonder if I have a good analogy, is kind of like a rubber band, like if you're stretching a rubber band, but also all of the rubber band was emitting light, you would see the light that your patch of space emitted, and you're part of the rubber band, but you also over time be seeing the light does generated over other parts of the rubber band.
Yeah, and if you think about what's going to happen in a very very far future, we will always see some CMB, but you know, there is a limit of what fraction of the universe we will see. So eventually the CNB will just get red shifted into invisibility. Like the CNB right now is very long wavelengths compared to the light that was emitted at the time. It used to be a very hot plasma hundreds of thousands of degrees. It used to be you know, very high frequency wavelength and it's gotten red shifted down to very long wavelengths, down to like two point seven degrees Calvin. So that's just going to keep happening. The wavelengths is going to get longer and longer until eventually it becomes essentially invisible.
Right And I think what's interesting what you just said is that you know the cosmic microwave background then will be changing over the next couple of billion years, like the picture of it is going to wiggle and ripple because it's coming from different parts of the universe each time you take the picture.
Exactly, so as we look at it, it does change, though it doesn't change very rapidly. You know, we took the original picture of the CMB thirty years ago, and then we take more and more refined pictures of it, and over those time periods it doesn't really change in any significantly observable way. So we are seeing slightly different slices of the universe, but you know, in the way that like a star doesn't change very much when you look at it from one year to the next. On these timescales of twenty thirty years, nothing really is changing. If we keep watching it for millions and millions of years and keep doing astronomy for that long, then we will see different slices of the universe.
Hmmmmm.
Yeah. And I think Jef is right that at some point in the future, like the observable universe is going to reach the point where we can't see anything, including the cosmic microwave background. Right Like, at some point in the future, this cosmic microwave is going to disappear.
I think we'll always be able to see some CMB, but it will just redshift away to infinity. There's always going to be some point in the universe where light is just now arriving from wherever it was emitted. And since the CMB was everywhere in the universe, there will always be some CMB whose light is just now arriving. But that's going to get more and more stretched out as time goes on.
And eventually it'll disappear, right, It'll get stretched out into nothingness.
Oh, yes, disappear in the sense that the wavelength will reach infinity and therefore it be like essentially unobservable. Like if the CNB has a wavelength of the galaxy, then you need a galaxy size detector to see it, and so yeah, it would be invisible to us.
So it will sort of disappear. So like if humans had come around maybe a couple of billion years later, whichever alien species comes up a few billion years from now, may not maybe even be able to see this kind of baby picture of the universe.
Yeah, And whenever I think about that, I realized, oh, it's lucky that we live now. So we can sort of see this stuff in the universe. It makes me wonder what used to be observable in the universe five billion years ago that now we will never see and couldn't discover. What pictures are we missing? What clues? Will we never get to the deep nature of the universe because we came along fourteen billion years after the party started.
Yeah, we missed the cosmic microwave foreground because we got here too late. We procrastinated Daniel in our evolution.
We shouldn't have spend so much time in the primordial sludge.
Yeah, it was pretty warm and cozy, I gotta say that. All right, Well, that answers the question for Jeff. You're right the CMB will disappear one day, but not for a while because we are still seeing it and because it was generated by every point in space. All right, let's get into our next question. This one is about gravity, magnetism and the different forces. So we'll get to that, but first let's take a quick break.
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All right, we are answering listener questions today. We talked about a great question about the observable universe and the cosmic microwave background, and now we have a question here about the forces. And this is kind of what you were referencing before, Daniel, about superheroes based on the different forces, because we have different forces in the universe.
Yeah, we have these different forces in the universe, and we don't understand why some of them are stronger than others and some of them are weaker. And we think that maybe in the early universe they might have all been one force that had one strength, but we're not sure.
Oh. Interesting, we had the Avengers before the Avengers was the prequel.
It's sort of like, you know, how the power Rangers can come together into one super power Ranger we think the reverse might have happened in our universe.
Interesting, it's a prequel, all right. Well, then let's get to the question. This one is from on God who wonders about gravity and magnetism.
Hi, Daniel and Jorge really like your podcast because it teaches so much about physics in space. So I got me wondering what would happen if gravity was as strong as magnetism? Would so, if the universe started with gravity being as strong as magnetism, what would happen? Would the universe even start expanding or not? Or would it get even donser somehow? Also, what would happen if right now, if the universe is normal, but then right now, gravity all of a sudden becomes as strong as magnetism, where to create mega black holes and then things that are so dense that time goes backwards with the bending of the light cone. What would happen? Thank you very much, good luck with the podcast.
Oh man, what an awesome question. Thank you on God. Do you have so much going on in your in your little head. That's amazing.
That is a future physicist for sure.
Yeah, let's get him practicing how to say the word physicists as.
Soon as possible. Clearly not approved requisite however, for becoming one.
So maybe he should be Danny.
It should be pants essential pronunciation, not necessarily.
I mean, how are you going to recruit more of you if you can't even say the word.
So you're saying we should have more physicists in the world.
I'm saying you should have more trained physicists. And how to pronounce your job title.
It's all about priorities.
Yeah, Now, but their question is pretty interesting, and it's about the forces. So the main question is what if gravity was as strong as magnetism, And so gravity's one force, magnetism is another force. And actually gravity you always say is very weak compared to magnetism.
Yeah, gravity is the weakest of the forces by a long shot, Like not by a tiny little bit or a factor of ten, but by a factor of ten to the thirty seven you know, Like a billion is ten with twelve zeros in front of it. This is ten with thirty seven zeros in front of it. It's really a huge number. They're just like not even on the same playing field at all.
Yeah, Like magnetism is the thirty seven orders of magnitude stronger than gravity, meaning like if you have two things that have mass and electric charge, like the force aye or because of the electric charge is much much higher.
Yeah, and you're using electric charge there because you know that magnetism is actually part of a unified idea of electro magnetism. Magnetism by itself isn't really a holistic concept. You need electricity to understand it as well. And that's because from different like frames of reference, the same phenomena will produce electricity or magnetism. So really it's one holistic concept we talk about. And as you say, magnetism is much much stronger than gravity. And you can discover this yourself in your kitchen. You know, you have kitchen magnets on your fridge, right, and they stick to your fridge, they don't fall down, even though the entire mass of the Earth, right, a whole planet is tugging on them, and yet a tiny kitchen magnet can totally resist that because magnetism is that much more powerful than gravity.
Yeah, Like that kitchen magnet is being pulled towards the Earth by the whole earth gravity, but it's being pulled up by its magnetic attraction to the fridge. M h Yeah, I like to think that every time I get up in the morning, I'm beating the whole Earth.
That's right. Bananas apparently are more powerful than the Earth. You can defeat its gravity.
Yeah, banana and cereal. They'll get me up in the morning every day, and it beats gravity.
And the other forces are also not equal, right. The strong force is one hundred and thirty seven times more powerful than electromagnetism, which is even more powerful than the weak force. But all of those are basically the same compared to gravity, which is almost zero compared to the other forces. And yet gravity is the one that dominates the structure of the universe, right, The nature of the Solar System, the shape of galaxies, all that is because of gravity. And that's because there is a lot of mass in the universe and gravity is very very patient, and eventually it wins. Yeah.
And the main reason I know we've talked about this before is that for the other forces, they sort of cancel each other out. Like there's a plus you know, a magnetic force and a negative meganic force, and if you're plus charged or minus charge, you would feel one of them. But because they're able to cancel, they sort of cancel out generally in the universe. But gravity, it's always attracting.
Yeah, gravity, if you think about in terms of a force rather than the curvature of space time, it's basically just got one kind of charge, right, Mass is always positive, and so all it can do is attract the other forces as you say, positives and negatives or you know, the strong force has three different kinds of color, but they can be balanced out. You can get things that are effectively neutral. It's impossible to get everything neutral gravitationally unless you like spread everything out through the universe totally homogeneously. So there will always be a gravitational force that tugs on things. So eventually gravity will wait, it'll pull everything into a black hole.
Right.
I think we covered this in our book or one of our books, where like if the whole Earth was positively charged and the whole Sun was negatively charged, like we'd be toast, Like the whole Earth would just fly into the Sun super fast, because that's how strong the electropoingnetic forces. But because you know, we have an equal number of plus and minus force charges here on Earth and then and an almost equal mount in the Sun like to the Earth, the Sun is neutral. It doesn't feel any electromagnetic attraction or repulsion exactly.
And the reason is that mostly the universe was formed from neutral stuff because electromagnetism is so strong that charged particles sought each other out to balance each other out early on in the universe, and so the universe neutralized from the point of view of electromagnetism long before gravity really had anything to say about anything.
Yeah, and so Anga's question is that gravity is weaker than the electromagnetic force, but what if it wasn't, Like, what if it was stronger at the beginning of time? And what would happen if it suddenly got stronger.
Now it's a great question, and I love running these sort of mental simulations, like what would the universe look like if the knobs were different? And it's a really important question because it let's us think about, like, why are the knobs set the way they are? Is it possible they could have been set differently or not? And so in this case, if gravity was just as strong as electromagnetism, so we're cranking gradvity of by ten to the thirty seven, then the whole universe would look very different from the very beginning Remember that the structure of the universe that we see now galaxies and stars and planets and all this stuff took a long time to form because gravity is so weak. So gravity was sort of on the sidelines while the universe was cooling and all these particles buzzing around positive negative charges. The universe cools and the other forces are sort of in charge. So the strong force, for example, pulls together a bunch of quarks to make them neutral from the strong force point of view. So you get like protons, right, which are neutral from the strong force. And then electromagnetism takes over and it pulls protons and electrons together to make neutral atoms like hydrogen. And then finally, thousands and millions of years later, gravity does its job and clumps those together into stars. Now, if gravity was as strong as electromagnetism, then it would have been active much earlier on. It wouldn't have been waiting while electromagnetism formed neutral atoms. It would have started clumping protons together before the even New July, so you would get these like huge positively charged masses.
Well, I guess you just to be clear, like, it's not like gravity turned on at something like it was always there from the beginning. It was just so weak compared to the electro cores that basically the universe sort of ignored it for a long time.
Exactly, it was irrelevant for a long time because more powerful forces were on the field. Only when those forces finished doing their jobs could gravity even play in the game, because it was the only thing left on the field basically, And so if gravity was much much stronger, then it would have been relevant earlier on and hydrogen, for example, might not have formed in the same way because gravity would have like tugged all those protons together instead of letting them seek out their electrons. And I don't want to overstate it, as you say, gravity is around, and even though it's weaker than the other forces, it does play a role in the early universe. We can see its effect on like the sloshing of the baryon plasma.
It just wasn't dominant, right or I wonder if even like neutrons or proulms would have formed, like could gravity somehow mess up with the way that quarks like buying together.
Could potentially if it was strong enough. In this scenario, though, gravity is as strong as electromagnetism, which is weaker than the strong force. So then in this scenario, the strong force would still be stronger than gravity, so you would still form protons. The quarks would feel those color forces more strongly than they would feel gravity, so they would still form together. But then if it's the same strength as electromagnetism, then you know, gravity and electromagnetism would be at a tug of war very early on, and you get very weird structures, so the universe would look totally different. You might get like black holes forming very very early on because gravity would be so powerful.
Well, I feel like these physics scenarios never end well for us, Like it's always some crazy univers that comes out of it.
It wouldn't end well for us. It would form some other, very different universe. It's hard to imagine what like stable structures would form, what it would look like. It might take trillions of years to develop complexity or only last for millions of years, we don't know, And it might evolve very very different forms of life that we can't even imagine, forms of life which you know would have podcasts and speculate about what the universe would be like if gravity was much weaker.
I like our podcast better there, but I think I think maybe the main question here is like, would you even see structure in this universe or would it all just immediately or very early on, just become all black holes. Because if gravity is stronger, then right, things things black holes are easier to make.
Black holes are easier to make. Although to make a black hole you need a lot of mass, and so one question is like, are you going to get a lot of small clumps or is gravity going to gather things together into a big clump. Because in the early universe, you know, things are very spread out, very smooth, and you have these micro fluctuations, these slight over densities that let you form structure. Now in this scenario, gravity is much much more powerful, so those over densities form structure much more quickly. But it's not clear to me whether you get a lot of little black holes or a bunch of really big black holes, or if you might just get things like neutron stars.
Hmmm, right, well, but if gravity was thirty seven times stronger, those neutron stars would probably become black holes much more quickly.
That's right. Neutron stars in our universe wouldn't survive in that universe, but you might get like smaller objects with much less gravity there are still stable somehow. You know, the strong force could resist the force of gravity. In smaller scales, you might get like neutron stars the size of your hand instead of ten kilometers wide, for example. It's really hard to predict because we can't really calculate things using the strong force very well. It's too strong, it's too powerful, it's too chaotic, and so these kind of simulations are very hard to do.
All right, Well, then the other part of the question is, like what if gravity suddenly became stronger? Now, like what if on gods went to the control room of the universe and flipped the switch and suddenly we were sitting here, but then suddenly gravity's much stronger.
On God, please do not do that. You would be like the double fanos because everybody you know would die instantly if that happened.
Oh my god, and is really straight to death.
Well, imagine you're standing on Earth and all of a sudden gravity becomes ten to the thirty seven times more powerful. Right, It would pulverize you. The tidal forces from Earth would tear you apart. You would get squished to the surface. You would just not survive.
So you're saying, fantas you would have been a physicist, because otherwise he would have known what to do to be a little more efficient exactly.
And not only would you not survive, but most of the structures we know in the universe would collapse very very quickly, because you know, what we have today is a balance between gravity and the other forces. The reason the Earth doesn't collapse into a black hole is because its internal tensile strength of the materials from the electromagnetic bonds are strong enough to prevent that. And the reason the Sun hasn't collapsed into a black hole is because it's powered by fusion, which is preventing it to collapse. Now suddenly you're changing half of that equation. Gravity is much much stronger. Everything is going to collapse very very quickly. So the hearts of stars, for example, will instantly become super duper hot because of the gravitational pressure. Basically every sun goes super nova instantly.
Wow, the whole universe just goes up in a big explosion kind and emplosion at the same time, like would Earth. The Earth suddenly become a black hole.
Yeah, the Earth becomes a black hole. The Sun goes super nova and leaves behind a black hole, and then you know, the eventual future of our universe we imagine is things drifting further apart but getting pulled together into black holes. And so basically this just speeds that up and turns everything into a black hole much much sooner than it otherwise would.
Right, But then the universe is still expanding. So would gravity bring everything together or would the universe continue to expand.
The universe would continue to expand we think that dark energy is not a function of the strength of gravity. But you know, there's a balance between dark energy and gravity. Dark energy is pulling the universe apart and gravity is pulling stuff together. And currently that balance is at the level of like galaxy clusters. We think that gravity wins at the level of galaxy clusters. It holds that stuff together and prevents it from getting pulled apart by dark energy and anything further away, dark energy is winning. Now if you make gravity much much stronger, then dark energy is still going to win at some distances, but gravity is going to win a much bigger things than it did before, So it's going to pull together superclusters and clusters of superclusters, and so you get these really big monster black holes that would contain, like, you know, maybe all the stuff in our current observable universe.
Yeah, I'm gonna call them mega black hole, which is a cool word.
It is a super cool word. It's a mega cool word.
It's a meya cool word. There you go from a megaphysicist. All right, well, I think that answers the question. Things would be really different, right. The universe would have still formed, right, You would still get the Big Bang because that expansion is not depending on gravity, like you said. But I guess the universe would have just a lot more black holes exactly.
If gravity was much more powerful early on, you'd get very diferent structures and early black hole formation. If gravity suddenly turned on to be very powerful today, you would get incident supernova and then a lot of black holes.
So I got Please don't press that button, at least not yet, you know exactly.
I know it's tempting. It's a big red button. You want to press it, but please please don't press it.
Take a step back, take a step back. All right, Well, we have one more question here, and it's about things disappearing from space, from the universe. So let's get into that. But first, let's take another quick break.
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Tackle these situations in stride and y. Of course, be annoyed when planned expense comes up, but not let it be something that slows me down.
Right.
And also, as I did with repairing my credit, you know, hiring somebody to do credit repair for me. You know, that was a gift that I gave myself that allowed me to then you know, get my first apartment, get you know, my first car under my name, then eventually buy my own home. Like these are all things that.
Are possible for all of us.
We just have to educate ourselves and put in some of the hard work that it takes to learn bad practices we might have inherited from our family, and then also educate ourselves on the things that we don't know, you know, the information that wasn't passed down to us because our parents weren't educating on these things.
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We are answering questions from listeners, and our last question here is from Keith from Cleveland, who is wondering if things are going to disappear in the universe at some point.
Hi, Daniel and Jorge, this is Keith from Cleveland. I love the podcast and I'm amazed at how much time you spend answering random listener questions. I don't know how Daniel has time left to be a working physicist and have an actual life outside of podcasting and question answering, But I'm going to add to that burden anyways by asking question, and that is, have we been observing deep enough into space for long enough time that's something we used to be able to see has receded to a point where it can no longer be seen due to the expansion of the universe. For example, is there a galaxy that we detected, say by nineteen ninety, that has since disappeared forever from our view because it is no longer within our hubble volume, and thus that galaxy's photons will now never reach us. Do we know such an object? And if not, how long do we need to wait between observing a very distant object and it disappearing forever? Thanks so much, and keep up the great work.
All right, Thank you. Keith from Cleveland. That's a little bit hard to say, Keith from Cleveland. I wonder if he became a physicist, it'd be it'd be really extra hard to pronounce physicist. Keith from Cleveland.
Yeah, but he asks a really cool question about the nature of the universe and what we can see in it.
He also has a great question about the nature of Daniel. Daniel, how do you find uh all the time to do all everything you do?
Uh?
Time dilation? You know, you move fast enough and clocks go slow?
Interesting? Interesting? Or you get close to a black hole? Right, do you have one in your house?
But then I would slow down and the rest of the universe would speed up, So then you need to put the rest of the universe near a black hole. Well, you get your work done, so I.
See. Maybe you have a white hole in your house. Oh you are called whitesn you figured it out. I am Sherlock Holmes elementary.
But no to answer it Keiths question, I am still a working physicist. I'm doing data analysis from the large Hatron Collider. I got undergrads and grad students and post docs working with me, and we're just having a lot of fun answering questions about the universe.
Yeah.
Yeah, you're still working as a physicist. You're just not pronouncing it as well.
As you could not part of the job. As far as I.
Understand, you don't listen on your resume, can pronounce my job title, jes Is.
I can't even really spell it. There's so many cess in it. I get it wrong every single time.
Do you spell it like a psychic baby?
Yeah, it's like trying to spell the word license. It's like where does that see go? And good thing, I don't need a physics license because I couldn't spell either.
Wall oh my goodness, or that you're a real doctor too, you'd be a physician physicist licensee. All right, Well, his question was it's sort of related to what we're talking about before, the idea that there are parts of space that we can see now and there are parts of space that maybe we will never see because the universe is expanding faster and faster, and I thinks is asking like have we gotten to that point yet, Like have we noticed that there are things we can't see anymore?
Yeah, it's a really interesting question. You're right, he's asking about whether things are falling off the edge of the observable universe. First of all, he's right that things will fall off the edge of the observable universe. That's because space is expanding faster than light, right, so space is stretching out right. Well, the observable universe expands that a light year per year. Space itself is expanding faster than that, and so there are things that are moving into parts of the universe that are expanding faster than the speed of light, where their photons will no longer ever reach us. So there are things falling off the edge of the observable universe, like you know, somebody stretching out the fabric faster than we're looking at it, and so we're seeing a smaller and smaller fraction of the stuff in the universe.
Well, but it's not sort of like falling off. It's more like the observable universe is growing, but it's just not there are things that are outpacing it, or they are running away from us faster than that bubble is expanding.
Yeah, they're not falling off on the edge into like the mouth of dragons or something like that. We think there probably is still space out there for this stuff to be in, but it's sort of disappearing from our view. So you're right, the expansion is outpacing the speed of light.
Right, And it's not like it's they're falling out of our view. It's just that they never were in our view and they never will.
Well, there's things in different categories. There's stuff that was observable and in the future will not be observable, things that sort of move out of the observable universe. There are things which started out not observable, and we're in parts of space that we're expanding faster than the speed of light, and then briefly are observable and then all out. And then there are things that never will be observable, things that, no matter how much time passes, photons from them will never reach us.
Whoa, whoa who You just blew my mind a little bit. That was like four categories of things. Let's maybe take one out of time. So there are oursoverable universes expanding theirs stats of the stuff we can see for sure. We talked about before earlier in this episode, how there is things like out there beyond sixty five billion light years away that will never see because space is expanding and so it will never like oursilver universe will never catch up to that.
Right, that's right. It's sixty three billion light years in radius. Things further than that, the recession velocity is greater than the speed of light and always will be, and so those photons will never reach us because they'll always be in parts of space where the recession velocity is greater than the speed of light. So there are distance to us will always be getting larger, even though they're technically moving towards us through their space.
Right. And when you say always, you mean as long as the universe keeps expanding, right.
That's right. And this is assuming the current cosmological model and that the expansion continues in the way that it has, which is fascinating, you know, because there was very early expansion inflation the first few moments of the universe, and then there's late time expansion, this time around eight billion years after the universe started, when it started accelerating again. So there's sort of two modes of expansion. And what we're doing now is we're assuming that that recent expansion in the last few billion years just sort of continues forever. But we don't know, right, It could be different. It could be that the future is something else.
Right, But as far as we know, it seems like there's stuff we can see stuff we will never see. And then, very interestingly, you said, there are two kinds of things that we can see now, but that we won't see in the future. So what are those two things?
So one is stuff that has been in our observable universe, but eventually we'll fall out of our observable universe because it's moving within space. Well, because space is expanding. You know, things for example, that were between us and forty two million light years away very very early on in the universe, like around the CMB time. That's stuff we can see right now.
Oh, I see, you're saying, what el a like. Once we see something like, we can see it forever. Nope.
So if you go back to the very beginning, right T equals zero, technically we could see nothing, right, so we couldn't see any part of the observable universe was a sphere of zero volume. Then as time goes on, that expands and we start to be able to see things in the universe, right, and so things enter the observable universe. Not everything is going to enter that however, right there's still things so far away that they will never enter the observable universe because at the same time, space is expanding. So you know, you have this race between the observable universe, which is growing at one light year per year, and space expanding, we're is tugging things away from us. So in the very beginning, nothing's in the observable universe. Then as time goes on, some things come into the observable universe and we can see them, though not everything. There's some things that will never enter the observable universe, but the stuff that falls into the observable universe that come into the observable universe so we can see it. Eventually, also it will leave because space is expanding faster than the speed of light, so that will win and eventually everything will get pulled outside of our observable universe, and even though technically the observable universe will be large, they'll essentially be nothing in it anymore.
Right, Well, I think, maybe just to be clear, like, the space within the observable universe right now is not expanding faster than the speed of light, but it's accelerating all the time, and space is stretching faster and faster. So I think what you're saying is that eventually the space within the observable universe, that stuff is gradually going to be going faster than the speed of light, and then at some point it's going to catch up to the observable universe and even past it, in which case we won't be able to see it.
Yeah, so the bubble that we can see keeps growing, but stuff gets accelerated away from us faster than that bubble keeps growing, and so eventually everything sort of falls out of our I like to say falls out, but you're right, it's not like tripping over the edge. It's outpacing the growth of that bubble.
I feel like it's a very exciting race. It's like, you know, the observable universe was winning, but then the expansion was winning, but then that one was losing less. And there's some people in some stars cut in the middle that are unfortunately going to be winning but then losing. And it's a pretty pretty dramatic story.
It's a pretty dramatic story. Yeah. And if you think about an individual thing, it starts out invisible, right, And this essentially you can think about that as like having infinite red shift.
Right.
Red shift in infinity is totally invisible. So things that are going to be in our observable universe start out at infinite red shift, and then they come into our observable universe and at some point in time they reach like their minimum red shift, and then they turn around and they start to grow their red shift again as the universe acceleration takes over and they go back to infinite red shift. So everything sort of starts in infinity, comes to a minimum red shift, and then goes to infinite red shift. Some things are always at infinite red shift, and we'll never see them, those things past our eventual particle horizon.
Well, I think keys question now is like has that started to happen? Right, Like, has stuff within our absorvable universe started to accelerate faster than the speed of light, because it's possible that it hasn't started right.
Well, there's always something right at the edge there, something that is falling off. Right, since the universe started accelerating about eight billion years ago, things that are right there at the edge started to lose that race. So there's always something that's passing that threshold, but.
Not necessarily right. It could have been right because the universe stretched out, and it could be like, like right now, it could be that the observerable universe's expanding at the speed of light, But it could be that maybe the expansion up to the point hasn't reached that right.
Well, remember that the recession velocity is linear, that's hubbled laws. So things that are close to us are not moving away from us that fast. And as you go further and further away, things are moving away from us faster and faster, and that's linear. So if you go far enough away, there's always something that's moving away from us faster than the speed of light.
Yes, but that thing could be outside of our observable universe right now, or it could be inside of our observable universe. Right If it's outside the observable universe, then right now we can see everything. But eventually it's going to catch up.
So things are moving away from us faster as they're more distant. Currently, in order to be moving away from us faster than the speed of light, you only need to be about fifteen billion light years away, So most of the observable universe is moving away from us faster than the speed of light. Oh.
Interesting, So there are things that are falling out of our view. But in the past there wasn't, but now there is.
I think there are always things that are falling out of our view. If the universe is expanding and accelerating at.
The same rate. But wasn't the universe expanding slower before?
Yeah, the expansion has been accelerating exactly. So now there are things falling out of the edge of our absurable universe or getting outpaced by the expansion, I think is your phrase, which I think is better?
Oh?
Interesting? All right? So Keith was right. I mean he was asking when that's going to happen, and you're saying it's already happened. We're losing the universe.
Yeah, And Keith was asking whether we've seen something disappear, which is a really cool question and similar to your question before about like seeing the CMB change. So if you're like looking at an object that you know is really far away now, right, And remember that when we're talking about seeing an object that's really far away, there's a subtlety here. If we say something that we're seeing is forty six billion light years away, we mean that's where it is right now, right, So we're seeing light from it that was emitted when that object was closer to us, but now where it is is forty six billion light years away. Wow, that's what we mean when we say the edge of the observable universe. Right, we're not seeing that stuff today. We're seeing it from when it was actually closer from where it was when it sent us a photon. Anyway, we are looking at stuff at the edge of the observable universe. And so, for example, there's a galaxy people have looked at that might be the most distant object. You know, the CMB is older and more distant. But this is an object near the edge of the observable universe. It's called gn Z eleven and it was a galaxy formed about four hundred million years after the Big Bang. If you look at the pictures of it, it just sort of looks like a blob. The James Web Space Telescope, of course, will get very very crisp pictures of this object and help us understand like the early universe and galaxy formation. So this is a candidate for the kind of thing we expect to disappear from our universe because it's very close to the edge.
Right.
Interesting, But I guess you're saying that it's not going to like blink out at some point where it's not going to blink out in the space of ten years. It's going to slowly red shift into sort of blackness.
Right, Exactly. The reason the James Web is a good telescope to look at it is because its wavelengths are already really red shifted into the ir and to infrared wavelengths, and as the time goes on, it's just going to gradually get more and more red shifted until it gets to red shift of infinity. So you're right, it's not going to just disappear one day. It's going to gradually get redder and redder. It's not going to be very dramatic, unfortunately, and it's going to take a long time to really even notice any differences. These things take cosmal logical time periods to change, not days or weeks or years.
So kise, just to watch what you eat, and you might live long enough to see it disappear. But it sort of makes me a little sad. I feel like you're telling me that we've already started to, you know, see less of the universe, like our vial of the universe, like as has already started to disappear. Does that mean that, like what we see today is the most will see of the universe ever.
Well, there are things disappearing. There are also things that we have not yet seen that. We will see things that have been flying through the universe the whole history of the universe and have not yet arrived. But they will arrive because right now they're flying through space that's not moving away from us faster than the speed of light. They've like made it inside the hubble radius, and they will eventually reach us. So, for example, there are things that are sixty three billion light years away the very first flashes they sent in the very early universe. Those will eventually reach us. Nothing else afterwards that they send will ever reach us, will very briefly dip into our observable universe at the very end of time. So there are some things where the light is still on its way that will reach us. But there are also things that right now that are already disappearing from the universe. So every photon as it passes through the universe sort of passes through a different universe because space is expanding, and that expansion is changing with time. So photons that left a long time ago have had a chance to make it within the sphere that's no longer expanding faster than the speed of light, so they will eventually get here, although later photons from the same super distant objects won't get here.
All right. Well, I think the answer for Keith is that things have started disappearing now, or they are starting to disappear, but it might be a little bit before we stop getting new things into our field of view. Like, we haven't peaked yet in terms of our view of the universe, but we will someday.
That's right. The most distant thing we see will be sixty three billion night years away. We haven't yet seen that. We will see it very briefly at the end of time, and we will never see anything more distant than that. At the same time, there are some things which are closer, which spend more time in our observable universe, but are already being outpaced by the accelerating expansion of the universe. Unfortunately, they don't blink out dramatically, They just sort of red shift away.
All right, Well, stay tuned, I guess until the end of time. Well, we'll find out the answer.
That hopefully we'll be making this podcast until the end of time.
Hopefully you'll learn how to pronounce the word physicists by then.
That'll take two or three universes.
I think, yeah, maybe in the next universe. You'll figure it out.
Maybe in the next universe. All right, I'll put that on my to do list for next universe.
That's right, it's stay tuned for the sequel, The Universe. The dark Matter.
Returns correctly pronounced with pants on.
All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, See you next time.
Thanks for listening, and remember that. Daniel and Jorge explain The Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. House US dairy tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more.
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