Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseDaniel and Jorge talk to Kari Drake, writer on "Lost in Space" about the science of that Universe
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Hey, Daniel, do you ever worry about being stranded on a desert island?
I think that that tends to happen more in cartoons than in real life, you know, like Piranhas and quicksand.
Wait, what Paranah don't really happen?
How many relatives have you lost to Piranhas?
Well, I guess I'm just wondering, you know, like if you were in a desert island, what would you want to bring with you?
Like?
What books would I want to read? Over and over and over again.
No, I mean, like, who do you want to be there with you? Do you want a doctor? In an engineer or like a scientist.
Like you, I'd say none of the above.
Wait what you want to want a doctor or an engineer? You want to be all by yourself?
If I had to pick one person, I think I would pick a science fiction writer because they are the most creative when it comes to solving problems.
Have you met many science fiction writers.
I'm taking a trip to a desert island and I hope this one there Or.
Are you just hoping to write a wormhole that will take you all.
Home as long as they don't write any plot holes.
Hi am poor Hammad, cartoonists and the creator of PhD.
Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine, and I actually have spent time on a desert island.
You have really wait, a desert island or a dessert island?
Both? Actually both? But I really would love a dessert buffet on a desert island.
Wait what, oh, I see it's an island with a desert or like a deserted island.
I once participated in a ridiculous Boondoggle, which is a scientific conference on Tahiti. So I got paid to fly out to Tahiti and spend a week thinking about physics and snorkeling and eating dessert.
So it wasn't I'm not sure that Tahitians would appreciate you calling your island deserted.
It was actually a whole set of islands, large ones, small ones, and we were out on one of the smaller ones with this a scientific research station, so it's not deserted, but there is a desert.
Right And did you solve any physics problems while you were there?
Yes? How much dessert can one physicist eat in one sitting? I took some data.
And not throw while you were snorkling date a sample one and it was a negative result.
No.
I loved my time in Tahiti and at a very productive time at that conference. So thank you funding agencies.
But anyways, welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.
In which we treat the entire universe like a dessert buffet. We sample everything, We take a bite out of every little pastry of physics. We dive deep into every offering. Because We want you to enjoy the flavors of the universe, including its mysteries and the fascinating things that we have been able to unravel.
Yes, because the universe is full of tasty morsels of knowledge for us to consume man, and while they don't have calories, they do tend to make your brain a little bit bigger.
While our bodies are currently limited to living here on Earth and eating the morsels of food that it can provide, our minds are not so limited, and we are capable of casting them far far into the universe and trying to understand what's out there, How does it all work, how did it all begin? And who else might be out there?
And is it made out of chocolate? Very important question here. But wait, Daniel, are you saying that Earth is really the main course? And so once we consume Earth, we're gonna go for dessert in another galaxy?
Maybe I do like exotic desserts, and so maybe there's some variety of chocolate that can grow on alien soil that's even better than the best Ecuadorian or African chocolates.
But you don't like white chocolate, so maybe would you like purple chocolate or green chocolate.
Well, that's because white chocolate's not chocolate. Excuse me.
So well, fortunately we live in the Milky Way, so I'm sure there are plenty of dairy desserts out there.
I look forward to my dessert tour of the galaxy.
Yeah, and it is a pretty big universe out there. I mean there's not just our galaxy. There are billions and billions, maybe trillions of galaxies out there. It's a lot of space to get lost in, to be honest exactly.
And perhaps one day our children, our children's children, our children's children's children's children will explore it, will set foot on another planet, around another star, or maybe even in another galaxy. And if they do, they will have a difficult task to set up a colony and support human civilization so far from Earth.
Yeah, to grow chocolate there. I mean it's strickly enough here on Earth. There's a whole craft to it.
That is colony priority number one.
That's right, Feed the physicist chocolate and coffee. Which one would go first, Daniel, coffee or chocolate?
Yeah, I think coffee to the science fiction author and chocolate to the physicists. That's what I would suggest.
But it is a wonderful universe, and there's no shortness of interesting ideas and imagination that we can use to think about what could be out there. And this is basically some people's jobs.
Physicists are always exploring what's possible, how the universe might be, but we are constrained to what we know about the universe. And a whole group of people out there are science fiction authors specifically, who think even further, even deeper into the future. They entertain what might be, what seems to be impossible today but might be possible tomorrow, and write human stories about those futures.
Yeah, are you sometimes envious, Daniel that they're not constrained by you know, real data or funding agencies or teaching requirements.
Oh, I'm sure they're constrained by funding agencies. They just have very different vendors. Publishing houses make even crazier decisions, and funding agencies.
I think I wouldn't know anything about that.
But there's a whole spectrum, you know. Experimental physicists definitely are constrained by data. We publish things we discover about the actual universe. Theoretical physicists also constrained by data, but you know, they actually prefer to avoid the data. They like playing around in realms where experimentalists can't yet rule things out, things like string theory, where we do not have colliders that can probe whether or not the universe is actually tiny strings vibrating at the smallest level. That's where they like to play because they are not constrained by data. And science fiction authors, I think of it's just like one step further removed from experimental constraints.
Well, I feel like theoretical physicists at least are constrained by the math, like whatever they come up with has to be mathematically consistent. But the science fiction writers don't have to worry about math or data.
Yeah, they can just write in English, which is a lot less precise than mathematics.
Well, I guess you have to worry about peace liking their work. That's not something you probably worry about, you, No.
And science fiction authors are work constrained by grammar, periods, semi collins, these kinds of rules. They do have to answer to their editors, after all, do.
Their spell checking in their word software. But science fiction virus are something that are part of the whole scientific endeavor we feel, and so we have a series of podcasts in which we talk about science fiction works and we talk to their authors.
We have spoken to lots of fun science fiction authors about the signs of their universe, how they constructed it, whether or not it's important to them that their universe is scientifically valid, and whether or not they have built alternative theories of physics in those universes. So if you are a fan of science fiction, check out some of our interviews. We've talked to Alistair Reynolds, We've talked to Adrian Chaikowski, we talked to Sbdivia. We have a whole list of folks. It's basically a book club.
It is sort of a special book club. It's sort of like a nerds nerd book club. But today's a bit different because we're not actually talking about a book. We're talking about a TV show, which is a first for us, right.
Yeah, I thought it would be fun to expand from writers to screenwriters, people who have visions of the future that actually get visualized on screen for us all to enjoy.
Yeah, we sort of talked about movies sometimes, but this is the first time we talk about a TV show.
Only because I can't get feature writers to come on the podcast.
I see, we're not famous enough yet. We have to limit ourselves to what daytime television is this. Are we gonna start with daytime television and then move our way up to prime time.
Haven't yet cracked into Hollywood exactly.
So to be on the podcast, we'll be talking about the science fiction universe of Lost in Space is now, Daniel, We have to be very careful here that we were going to be talking about the latest incarnation of the show Lost in Space, not the original nineteen sixties television show.
Yeah. There are a lot of versions of this, it turns out. So we're talking about the Netflix remake, which started in twenty eighteen and just came out with their third season, which takes place in the future at twenty forty six. But you're right, there was a TV show in the sixties that took place in nineteen ninety seven, so twenty years earlier than the present.
That was the Future in the sixties.
I guess yeah. And I hear that you were a fan of this as a kid.
I did.
I lived in Panama and we had a military US military channel that broadcasts basically all kinds of TV shows in syndication, and so every afternoon, I would sit down and watch the original Loss in.
Space And was that part of your English language education, Yes.
Yes it was. That's why anytime anything happens, I go Danger Danger.
I think it's really fascinating to see sort of ancient images of the future. How would you compare the nineteen sixties depiction of nineteen ninety seven with the ninety seven you lived through?
Not close enough? I think, you know, it'd be great to have those jet packs, those robots running around, those flying saucers.
Yeah, it would be pretty awesome. I think that's why they slid the timeline forward when they remade it to twenty forty six. Would be far enough in the future that it's plausible. But this actually has an even longer history because the show itself was inspired by a comic book Space Family Robinson, which was inspired by an eighteen twelve novel Swiss Family Robinson, which itself was inspired by Robinson Crusoe, WHOA.
It's like a reboot of a remake of a sequel. This is what's going on here, super inception science for sure.
And somewhere along the way, I think there was also a movie that came out from Lost in Space.
Yes, starring Matt LeBlanc from Friends.
And so if you think this is well trodden territory, there is still stuff there to mine.
Well, it is a pretty interesting premise of the show, and I think it, like you said, it all goes back to this idea of Robinson Crusoe and being stranded out there in the wilderness exactly.
It's all about using science to survive the universe. It's an individual against nature where nature is not just like sneaks and jaguars and then jungle here on Earth, but the entire universe black holes and neutron stars and everything out there that might kill you.
Now, we have sort of an interesting situation here because you've watched the entire Netflix revival that started in twenty eighteen, but you haven't seen the original worth. I've seen the entire original series but haven't seen the.
New one, And so together we know absolutely nothing.
Together, we have nothing to compare. I like mine and you like its exactly.
Well, I'm going to have to go and watch the original now, although you know, compared to the new one, it can't be that impressive.
Well, you know, you got to watch it in context. All right, Well, let's jump into this show Lost in Space, Daniel, Well, what would you say the show is about.
So the show is about a family that's been stranded. They have left the Earth after some huge impact nearly wipes out human and civilization, and the planet bands together to launch a colonization effort. And this family, the stars of the show, are with the rest of the humans on their way to Alpha Centauri, but they get stranded. They get separated from their convoy and they land on a strange planet and they have to survive.
Yeah, and it's not just like they took a wrong turn. It's like they accidentally fell into a wormhole or something. So they really have no idea where in space they are, or wear in the galaxy, or even if they are in the same galaxy.
Right, Yeah, exactly, they are lost in space, and so they have to survive on their own, and they have to try to find their way back to the original colony. So it's a whole family, the family Robinson, of course, and on this planet. No spoilers. This happens early on in the first episode. The boy in the family, Will Robinson, meets an alien robot and becomes its friend because he helps it.
Yeah, I thought that was an interesting twist because in the original I think they bring the robot with them. It's not something they find interesting.
See, our complementary knowledge is really working its.
Magic, yeah, helping us filling in some airtime there.
Yeah. Well, in this version, the robot is an alien robot, which I think is a really cool idea because you know, we often think about AI and human AI evolving, but we don't often think about the eventual transformation of alien species into AI or you know what happens if an alien species develops AI and then is taken over by their own AI, and then we only meet that AI.
Like if they have their singularity kind of moment, like their own natred moment.
Yeah, that's right. And so this robot says the usual catchphrase, you know, danger Will Robinson, and it's capable of a little bit of communication with the humans.
Yeah, and it's all sort of a little naive, right, it's sort of like innocent, sort of.
Well, this particular robot has some complexity to it. You know, it can be harmful, it can be dangerous, it can be helpful. It's a little bit inscrutable. You never truly understand it. And actually think that the writers did a good job of making it accessible enough emotionally that you care about it a little bit, but also keeping it a little bit alien. You never think you really understand what's going on inside that alien right.
It's sort of like having a grizzly bear friend or something like. It's nice and cuddly and cute, but you know, who knows what one it's going to do in a moment's notice.
Yeah, it's very unpredictable, and it turns out to not be the only robot. What these folks discover eventually is that the human ships are getting to Alpha Centauri because they've been powered by alien technology which was stolen from these alien robots, and so they run into a whole swarm of these alien robots that are not as friendly as their buddy, the alien robot.
Wait, what, did you just spoil the whole series for me here?
No, No, this is the basic premise. It comes out pretty early on.
I see. Well that's interesting too, because in the original I don't think there was sort of a grand plot to it, you know, and the original was meant for syndication in the sixth season, So each episode is basically like a repeat of the last, Like Oh, they get to a new place, they figure out what's going on, how to survive. You don't need to know what happened in the other episodes.
So why did they ever move on? If they figure out how to survive in new place X, why don't they just set up camp and live happily.
After Well, I think they're trying to get home. They're not trying to relocate. You're not. You can't be lost in space if you like being, you know, out there in space.
I'm lost in space and I'm happy about it.
Then you're just in space, I think.
Exactly happy in space? Where's the tension?
But that's an interesting toy. So it turns out that the technology that humans have came from aliens. Like what happened there? Like they found it or what?
Yeah, So I don't want to spoil it. That's part of the plot which unfolds, but it's a lot of the conflict that drives the story forward. You know, are we taking advantagies alien robots? Are they actually the good ones and we're the baddies. It's a fascinating drama, and you end up with a big battle between humans and these alien robots, and humans try to convince some of the robots to be on their side.
Right right. And I think part of the sort of the DNA of the show and all these series is sort of like how do humans react to these extreme situations? Like do they pull together? Do they act selfishly? With some of the drama that comes out of.
It, Yeah, you get some of both. You have people who are like good citizens and pitching in for the common cause, and then you have people trying to subvert the mission for their own personal gains. There's really delicious subplot with a doctor Smith, which I think is similar to what happened in the original series, though it comes with a little bit of a twist in this one. But in general, the attitude is let's band together and let's solve this problem. As a mantra they say on the show a lot, which is every problem has a solution, which I like because it suggests that, you know, the human mind can wrap itself around the universe. If only we could understand the way things work, we can find a solution to almost any problem.
Right, And that's especially useful in a TV show because if things didn't work out, the show would be over.
That's true, but it also is the core drama of the show, sort of like in that movie The Martian where he's stranded on that planet and he has to science his way home. That's what they're doing. They run into a problem, and the problem is usually more technical than emotional, so they have to find some solution to the problem that requires understanding the science on this alien planet or coming up with some clever trick.
Right right.
It requires you to use the word science as a verb, like, let's.
Size it, nothing wrong with dune to little science.
And sienin All right, Well, let's get into the actual science of Lost in Space, and then later on we'll get an interview with one of the writers on the show. But first let's take a quick break.
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All Right, we're talking about the science fiction universe of Lost in Space, the latest Netflix revival of the show Idea, which was based on another show which is based on a book which was based on real person Robinson Crusoe. So, Robin Soon Crusoe was a historical figure. I wonder if he still gets royalties his estate. Well, probably not. He's still in that desert island.
When he gets back, he's going to be rich.
He is a pile of checks made out to Robinson Crusso.
Yeah, I hope his agent included all new media in his contract, you.
Know, and streaming. Do you think they thought that was going to happen in nineteen ninety seven?
You see, if he had a science fiction author with him on that island, that author probably could have anticipated this kind of thing. That's exactly why you need creative people with you.
That's right. That person would also would have been delicious probably Unfortunately, that's dark, man, that's dark. That's dark science fiction.
All right.
Well, we're talking about the latest Netflix show and there's some science to it, right, there's like real science. And as you said, part of the mantra of the show that you got from talking to the writer is that they pay a lot of attention to the science and they try to figure out scientific solutions to the problems.
Yeah.
One of the lead characters in the show is the mom in the family. She's a scientist and she says this all the time. She says, every problem has a solution, because they're often stuck and it seems hopeless, and then they come up with some scientific strategy. You know, early on, for example, in the first episode, one of the kids gets caught in a lake which freezes over and so like, oh my gosh, our kids are under the ice. Are they going to die? Which just stand here watching them die, and they come up with some clever solution to like rapidly melt the ice using a chemical reaction involving magnesium which they extract from something nearby. So it's that kind of sort of scientific problem solving.
Interesting. Yeah, I mean, after they took a little break for the kids, then they went to work to rest.
Yeah, but you know, they don't just like magic their way out of these problems or come up with something which doesn't make any sense. The goal I think of the show is for these folks to be sciencing and to use science to solve these problems. And I find the science pretty credible in most of the episodes.
Oh yeah, it passes the Daniel physics test, like they use real scientific concepts, or that it's plausible to the way they use it for all of the above both.
I mean, there are some larger questions about fast and light travel and alien robots, which we can dig into a moment, but sort of the episodic science, the science they use to solve the problems of every show, you know, they run into maybe their ship runs out of fuel, so they need to find some way to create more fuel from whatever they found on the planet. They're used in real science. They're science from our universe. They've dug into the chemistry of it. How do you generate this kind of molecule from this kind of molecule? And that's really cool because it's I think the kind of thing you would actually have to do if you were an alien planet. You'd have to be resourceful and.
Creative, right right, You'd have to science a lot, and you'd have to like it. And I saw that they use a lightning strike to recharge through ship.
Yeah, at one point there, batteries are low and there's this lightning bolt that comes at a very repeatable and predictable moment, So they rig up something to capture that lightning strike sort of Ben Franklin style, and guide the current into their battery. Again, it's the science that's driving the problem and it's driving the solution. So if you're the kind of person who thinks scientifically likes to understand the universe, you can really see these characters doing that. It's a lot of fun.
That's a cool aspect of it, I guess. And do they use like real science or do they make up signs, you know, like they make up new kinds of molecules or new kinds of energies or do they stick to things that you know, scientists today on Earth would recognize.
It's sort of in two categories. Like the episodic problems that they're solving, the nitty gritty level, like for survival, that's all real science, and as far as I can tell, at least, it's all you know from our universe. The larger questions that sort of frame the whole show. How do you get to Alpha Centauri in less than ten thousand years, and could you actually meet a race of alien robots and communicate with them those questions there there on thinner ice, I think scientifically.
Right, they need to use magnesium to melt the ice. But you said that part of the idea of the show said, it turns out that the humans actually have ailing technology, and that's what they're using to travel to Alpha Centauri because Alviasentur is pretty far.
Yeah, they invoke this sense that other species out there might be much older than ours, and so they might be much more advanced, and so they might be masters of space and time in ways that humans just aren't, And so it's plausible that they would have technology which to us seems impossible, for example, engines that could take you between the stars in less than tens of thousands of years. One challenge we have in exploring the universe is that we can't travel faster than the speed of light, and other stars are pretty far away.
Yeah, half far is halfa centauri.
It's just about four light years, So if you're traveling at the speed of light, it would take you four years. But accelerating up to near the speed of light in a fairly massive ship would take you a very very long time and a huge tank of gas. So the best Earth technology would be zillions of dollars in thousands of years.
I see. And so is the idea that in Alpha Centauri, which is a star, there's like an earth like planet there.
Yeah, they're imagine if there are habitable systems there in the Goldilocks zone, and if we could just get there, we could establish a colony and live happily ever after.
And so they have this technology from aliens. And now does it work as like a warp engine like in Star Trek or does it open up a wormhole that connects space and time at different points.
Yeah, that's a great question. And visually it looks more like a wormhole the way they depict it on the show.
Looks like a hole, right, basically like a hole in space like a window kind of.
But it's interesting because only the alien robots know how to operate these alien engines, and so it like requires some intense calculations or something in order to build these wormholes, which I thought was really interesting and you'll hear later I asked carry about that, like, what is the science of these engines. So I think she was inspired by some combination of wormholes on warp drives because she talked about like bending space and time. But you know, that's something which is plausible, Like we don't know how to make wormholes, we don't know how to build warp drives, but as we've talked about on this show several times, physics says that it's not necessarily impossible. And so whenever there's a gap like that, the theorists go crazy, Oh, well, maybe it's something we can actually do, and the science fiction authors feel free to write plots about it because it might be true that in a thousand years or one hundred years or fifty years, that's something that we could actually do.
Right, or that maybe aliens have already done a long time ago. You know, it could be really old ancient technology for them.
Yeah, although if aliens exist and they have wormhole technology that lets them open portals around the galaxy, that begs the obvious question, right, like why haven't we seen them yet? If they've been around for a while and they can zip around the galaxy, you think we might have found.
Some of them, right, they're probably just avoiding us. They're like where we go to that deserted island over there.
Yeah, and it's possible, of course, that the aliens are around and we just don't even recognize them. How do we know that the aliens are anything like us so that we would even identify them, or we could tell that they were here, they could tell that we were here. It's possible that alien life is extremely alien.
Yeah, Like you usually say, like, even if we found some piece of alien technology, how would we even know how to turn it on or make it work for us? Do they cover that in the show?
Yeah, Well, in this case, we don't know how to use it, and the only way to use the alien engine is to have an alien robot because only they can turn it on.
Great, what that means that humans have an alien robot with them.
I don't want to spoil too much, but there's a lot you just did.
I didn't say anything you said spoiler alert, Daniel already spoiled.
You just asked such a good question and that you reveal it with your question.
Well, there's also a sort of signs in the idea of exploring other planets in this show, because they go to other planets, and one thing that kind of always puts me off a little bit when you see science witching shows going to other planets, is how similar they look to Earth, Like Tattooine looks a lot like the African desert.
It certainly does. And that happens also on this show that they land on a planet. It's lush and it's green, and there are tree like things and bush like things and grass like things. And you know, maybe that's true, and maybe evolution pushes plants in that direction no matter what, because it's just the optimal strategy in general. But it seems to me more likely that things on other planets are much much weirder, you know, given the huge variety of ecosystems even here on Earth, and as a function of history on Earth, it seems much more likely. But you know, it's difficult and expensive to build totally creative, weird alien realms when you are filming here on Earth.
Yeah, although I think this show sort of tries a little bit. I saw a little bit of it. And when they go into like the woods, they do try to like add with CG like a few purple plants here and there. I mean, it's mostly like Earth trees, but they also try to sprinkle, you know, some sort of alien things around.
Yeah, exactly, alien is purple. I like that, purple chocolate, purple plants, purple flowers. Clearly, with an infinite budget and infinite time, you might be able to be more creative and create entirely new sets or cgi, but I think there's some limit on what you can accomplished practically. So you do have to suspend disbelief a little bit on this show because it is awfully earthlike in terms of the flora.
Yeah, because I was watching something the other day that said that our plants are green sort of randomly, kind of like green is not the only color that something like chlorophyll could have been. We could have used another molecule that was a different color.
So alien plants really could be purple.
They could be purple. Purple is exactly a pretty good color. Also, not just green.
Well, I like purple cauliflower and purple cabbage, so I hope alien salads are probably pretty tasty.
You're halfway there. And there's also some science about the robots, right, like the ideas that aliens have created robots artificial intelligence, but you don't see the aliens. You only see the robots. They made.
Yeah, we only run into the robots, though later on in seasons of the show they do get a little bit into the backstory of where these robots came from, and so I don't want to spoil it, but it's fascinating to see how they depict alien AI and specifically, you know, how you can relate to it. It makes me wonder what the chances are if we meet aliens or alien AI, that we will be able to communicate with them. And of course, for the purposes of storytelling, you have to have some communication and so in a science fiction universe, they basically have to have some ability to communicate, though I think in our real universe it's less.
Likely you mean less likely that we would be able to communicate with them. Well do you just I guess assuming that, but maybe they build a AI so that it's adaptable and able to kind of adapt to us.
Yeah, perhaps that would be extraordinarily intelligent. But you know, if you're imagining future civilizations that can do warp drives and wormholes, then maybe they can also understand the human mind better than even we could.
And would you have to call it AAI because it's alien artificial intellgent.
Yeah, perhaps it's funny because these alien robots they can say some phrases, like they can say danger Will Robinson, and they seem to be able to understand English, but they can't like go into detail and explain themselves very clearly. There's like a limited vocabulary there, and that's not really explained though. I asked Carry about it, and you'll hear her answer in the interview.
Oh all right, well, let's get to that interview and what writer Carrie Drake has to say about the signs of Lost in Space. But first, let's take another quick break.
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All right, we're talking about the science fiction universe of Lost in Space, and it's a pretty big show. I mean, it has three seasons now in Netflix MM and each season is like ten ten episodes.
Yeah, so there's a lot there to watch, and it spans lots of star systems and many years and lots of threads, and so it's become sort of a very big universe.
I know you're your fan, Daniel, of hard science fiction, like really strict science fiction. How do you feel about that this one does with that?
I think this one does about as well as anything. You know. They're trying to limit themselves to the science of the show. They've invented some rules and they try to stick to them. That's really the most important requirement. You could have whatever rules you want in your universe as long as you follow them. So there's got to be some laws of physics. Otherwise you're throwing the entire enterprise of physics out the window. And that I can't get behind.
Out the door, maybe, but not out the window. Come on, we have some self respect. That's a road too far, all right. Well, you reached out to one of the writers of the show Lost in Space for them to call on the show, but she said no.
Yeah. I reached out to Vivian Lee, who's one of the writers on the show, and she was very happy to talk to me, but she didn't want to be on the podcast. She said, and I quote, I am not a science person like at all, and if I was on your podcast, it would be just a mess for you and me, So she directed me to carry you who apparently is the science nerd in the writing room.
M interesting, she's sort of like the the most scientifically inclined.
I guess yeah, and so you'll hear in the interview, I asked her all about what it's like to be the voice of science in a writing room and how much give and take there is between the emotional and scientific arcs of the story writing.
Do they have like a scientific advisor on the show or is it called Wikipedia? Who is our scientific advisor on this show?
I think that Carrie's role was to reflect the science and show. She went off and did some research here and there, including asking some people she knew who had some grasp of science.
Interesting. And so Carrie Drake is the name of the writer, and she has a lot of credits to her name, including Dark Crystal, which is I know is a favorite of yours sort of.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of that show, dating back to the original movies, and so it was a pleasure to talk to her.
Well, here's Daniel's interview with Carrie Drake, writer on Lost in Space.
All right, so it's my pleasure to Welcome to the podcast Carrie Drake, who's a professional working science fiction writer in Hollywood, has written for Lost in Space as well as Dark Crystal, and lists herself as a professional procrastinator. Kerry, welcome to the program.
Hi, thanks for having me Dan, So, first, tell us a little.
Bit about your background, how you got into science fiction writing, and how you crack the puzzle of working for television.
Sure, sure, you know. I started out as a visual artist first. I thought I wanted to be an animator until I started animating, and I went on to do storyboarding, which is a lot, especially in the animation world, a lot like storytelling. So it's about reboarding and revising things until you get the story right. And that's sort of what drew me into television. Fell in love with television, worked my way up the ranks as an assistant for seven years, and one of my earlier shows as an assistant was Terra Nova, so another science fiction show. I've always loved science fiction fantasy. I think the Enters game series was one of my favorites, especially with Speaker a speaker for the dead. The second I read as I'm off, I love Tolkien, A nerd in that way. So yeah, you know, a stranger in a strange land, all of those those you know, it was really fun on Lost in Space. We got to talk about some of those old science fiction books and recall them. So yeah, that's how I got started.
Awesome. Well, we asked a few questions of all of our science fiction authors to sort of orient where they sit in the science fiction Nerd universe. So let me ask you some questions, not specifically about Lost in Space. First, our first question is do you think that Star Trek transporters kill you and recreate you somewhere else or actually transport your bodies somewhere else? Did Kirk get killed every time you stepped into the transporter?
That's a really good question. I'd love to hear your answer on that. But I feel like, oh gosh, what's the Star Trek spoof that I'm now the Orville?
The Orville.
No, it was not space Balls, it's Tim Allen.
Oh, Galaxy Quest, Galaxy Quest. I really to say that.
I really feel like you get scrambled. It's like scrambled eggs and Galaxy question. The pig comes back or whatever the alien pig is, and it's just blown up inside out. I really feel like that's what happened to Kirk.
Every time Galaxy Quest is so underrated. I think everybody should watch to that movie. It's fantastic. So then the second question is what technology that exists in science fiction would you most like to see become reality? That is, what should us scientists be working on to make real?
Oh? A replicator like I don't want to cook. I just want to press a button to have my food appear.
All right? And then last one is what's your personal answer to the Fermi paradox? Given that the universe is large and there seems to be lots of Earth like planets, why is it that aliens have not contacted us or visited yet?
Oh that's a really good question. I mean, do we know they haven't?
How do I know you're not an alien? Is that what you're trying to say?
Now, that's a really good question. I almost wonder if you know. Some week on the show on Lost of Space, we talked a lot about the Kardashev scale, and I just wonder if maybe we're just not advanced enough. One of my is in a little nerd bit, but one of my favorite video games was Mass Effect you know, And I love this idea that instead of us being at the top of the totem pole like we always think we are, we were actually at the bottom, and all those other alien races just sort of thought, you know, poorly of us. We just hadn't arrived yet. So I wonder if, you know, I wonder if we have had contact, you know, with radio bursts and whatnot, and we actually don't know how to decipher that.
Yeah, that would be sort of tragic.
Yeah, maybe it's beyond our ability to understand at this point in our evolution.
All right, So now turning to your work on Lost in Space the show, I love how it pits the characters against the universe and this survival drama. They're pioneers struggling in the stark climate of an alien planet. Tell me what intrigues you about these themes, what makes you excited to write in sort of that setting.
I think our bread and butter really is when we hit those scientific themes or you know, pioneers struggling to come up with a solution for you know, we always talked about marine. Every problem has a solution and eventually we'll get there. And I think that when we pair that concept with an emotional concept. That's really the bread and butter of our show. And that's what I love, you know. I think that's what we all were attempting and and many times I think really succeeding. I think, you know, for example, like in the first season, Will is you know, desperately wanting to save his family and comes up with this poop solution as methane gas. And so, you know, when you can you can sort of bring comedy and science and you know, the incredible strain that he's feeling of wanting to help and feeling like, you know, he's powerless to do that, and then comes up with a solution that's really fun to write.
Well, I like your faith there in science that this is a universe that we can understand, that we could wrap our minds around and figure out how to solve a problem we put our brains to it. I hope that's true. I heard from one of your fellow writers, Vivian Lee, that you are the quote science nerd in the room. Since it's such an important part of the plot, give us a little sense of how the science has folded into the story writing. You come up with a sort of the story arc first and try to make it work with the science, or do you start with the science and then look for a story that can highlight it. How does that work in the writing process.
Oh, that's great, well, Vivian's amazing. I also feel like, uh, one of our creators, Burke sharp List, was you know, incredibly knowledgeable. I love to learn, so I like to figure out what we can do, you know, how we can make something work. We talk about a lot of other movies, you know, like what's our episode or you know what it is or that, but we also I think mostly we wanted to start from a place of emotion because I think ultimately that's what hooks an audience. So we would build out you know, what are the characters struggling with? What's at risk today? You know, is it survival? Is it you know, I'm not getting along with my families and I'm keeping a secret. I'm keeping this incredible robot a secret for my family and they can't find out. And then what are the consequences of that? And we also talked about that that's like the emotional arc, but especially in season one, we thought we landed on a Goldilocks planet and we didn't, you know. So that's a big, you know, a big sort of meta tension that's pushing us in a certain direction. And I think, you know, it's like, why are you know, are these plants so quick to grow back? And why are those jellyfish things floating out into the atmosphere. Sort Of a nerd point that we talked about in the room was, well, the animals and the creatures and the plants and the floor and fauna on this planet would have adjusted right if they were in an asymmetrical orbit with their sun. And you know, so they have gone up to the outer atmosphere where it was cooler as the sun was beating down on the planet, and then you know, drift back down. But I think it's interesting because that provides a growing tension, you know, for our season long arc as we're dealing with the micro emotions of the family in each episode.
And so given that most of the problems they're solving, most of these emotional struggles are having, are in confrontation with their environment and using science to solve those problems, how vital is it to you as a science nerd that the science in the show is accurate? Are you trying to describe something you think could happen in our universe or are you letting the story happen in alternate universe where maybe the laws of physics are different.
It's interesting, you know, we talked a lot about that. I think, especially in season one, we wanted to be as rigorous as we could, you know, in what made sense for the story and the characters. You know, for example, you know, we talked about, you know, what if there's like a diamond storm, you know, that comes out at us and it's literally shredding us, so we have to take cover. And you know, we were talking a lot about is that you know, is that realistic? Is it not realistic? But you know there are actually showers of diamonds that rain down on Uranus and Neptune. So I think we're always trying to find a basis for what we were creating. That was that was sort of bathed in science, and I think we kind of will always go back to that Neil deGrasse Tyson quote. You know, we're all made of stardust, we're all carbon beings, and maybe there are other galaxies that aren't. But we sort of always made our basis. So that was sort of our baseline.
So one of the central elements in the plot are these engines, these alien engines that the robots can use to help travel between star systems relatively quickly. How do those work is sort of in the science of your show. How do you move from one star system to another? Is it sort of wormhole creation device or is it like a warp bubble or how much did you sort of dig into the science of how that might actually work.
Oh, that's well, we talked a lot about the cartridge of scale, you know, and how we're barely a Type one civilization in the Sturtlings, and how you know, the robots are probably more of a Type two that they can control the energy on a planetary system and even you know, harness the star. So if they can harness the star. So in season two you sort of learn that this danger system has this main star and they've literally changed the orbit of these planets that rotate around them and the planets. You know, they're harnessing the stars energy g when planet in this very dramatic way. In terms of the traveling, the time traveling, you know, we wanted to make sure we don't want to talk about, you know, if you go back to Earth, everybody's going to be eighty or three hundred or not existent anymore. But I think we talked about having nuclear you know, engines and technology on the human side, and on this you know alien technology, it's alien engine. It could do a lot more. Yeah, basically full time, so you can go through it as opposed to having to move at a regular pace. Correct us on the fallible nature of our fantasy engine.
No, I think it's fantastic to explore what might be possible. And I think it's likely very accurate that we've only begun to tap the capabilities of what you could do if you really understood the nature of space and time. You know, how much we understand about the universe is some tiny fraction. We don't even know where the denominator is. And so if you had a race of beings that really understood the nature of the universe, who knows what they could accomplish. And I think it's largely up to science fiction writers like you guys to imagine what might be possible unconstrained from, you know, the shackles of what we know today, and then our job is to make it real.
Right well, And I think you know, it's a very human experience which we sort of projected onto our robot race, which was we have superior technology and we don't want you to have it. So what started out as we got to get our engine back then morphed over the course of the series of what was the magic that happened? And this is obviously not science fiction, but what was the magic that happened between robot and Will?
You know?
Why was Will able to change the robots programming?
Yeah, and that's exactly the next thing I wanted to ask you about. The alien robots in your show seem like they can play different roles. They can either be helpful or they can be dangerous. Does this reflect your concern about the future role of artificial intelligence and you know, the rise of robots in human society, that we might end up at the mercy of our own technology.
Yeah.
I feel like there's a terminator, so we know how that ends. No, but it is interesting. I was listening to an AI that had, you know, they had sort of put it in a Philip K. Dick body. I don't know if you've ever seen this YouTube, but they had downloaded and allowed the AI to read everything was ever written by Philip K. Dick. Everything that he ever said, you know, that was recorded in text, Everything that you know that this AI could search out and find online. It was written about Philip K. Dick. And so they started this interview, were interviewed this AI Philip K. Dick, and he said, you know you're not gonna you're gonna be nice to us humans, right like you're not going to destroy us all. And literally this is not scripted. This AI just just said this. But uh he said something like, oh ho ho, Larry, I forget, I forget the interviewer's name, but don't worry. I'll keep you in my human zoo.
I was so Philip K. Dick. Wow.
So yeah, I'm a little And you know, there was an interesting article AI wrote I'm forgetting the source now, but it wrote about how it can't not harm us because it's created by faulty humans. So even though it's programmed to serve us and make our lives easier, eventually, you know, it won't be able to follow that directive anymore, which I thought was really interesting. So in terms of AI me personally, I feel like, maybe, you know, although convenient, perhaps dangerous road, but in our show. I think what was really special was that whether you're AI or whether you're human, however you came to be, love transcends all programming, and that was kind of the message that we wanted to get out, even so much so that you know, for the first two seasons, we thought Will was special, and he was because he had this innate ability to trust and to have empathy for something that was different than him. And ultimately everyone has that opportunity to have empathy for others that are different, and that was ultimately what allowed the robots, you know, in the big finale to come together with the kids, which I thought was really beautiful and was not my idea. It was the creator's ideas, so I can plug that.
I thought that was a really interesting choice to allow the characters, the humans, to have an emotional connection with these alien robots, because alien robots, they're alien. They come from another planet and another culture, potentially completely unique biology and evolution. So do you think it's likely that if we meet an alien race robots or not, that we could have some sort of communication and mutual understanding or is that sort of a compromise you made for the show so that we can you know, identify with these characters. You think that in reality, like in our universe, we could identify and communicate with aliens.
I would hope so if that were the case, because you know, otherwise, I feel like our own history has taught us that the end result isn't so great.
Well. I share the fear that if we can't communicate with aliens, it would be very difficult to get along with them. But I wonder how likely it is that they would have sort of understandable emotions and thoughts that we could map into our own, you know, given our difficulty with even like communicating with the dolphins or whales here on Earth, I'm sure it would be Well.
You know, one of the things that we did, we took a tour. We went to JPL before season three, and I thought it was really interesting. They showed us that gold record that they sent out into space was like a replica, you know, with data numbers, and there was even music on it, I think, right, like the classical music beatles, And it just made me laugh. I'm like, what if it's not about communication less, they just hate our music.
Oh man, that would be amazing if that doomed the human race because we sent them the wrong songs.
Yeah, the wrong tape mix, guys.
So let me ask you more about sort of the backstory for these alien robots. There's a lot of mystery is to where they came from, and I'm randering from a writing point of view, how much of that backstory do you guys have worked out? Like, do you have the entire history obviously, don't give us any spoilers. Do you have the entire history of this ancient race and what happened to them that they ended up only having robots or do you sort of leave it undetermined so that to give yourself flexibility if you have new ideas for directions in future seasons.
Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. There was a lot of joking and there was a lot of strong opinions on either side. We need to leave this a mystery. We don't want to get into this because that's you know, ultimately it's about the Robinson's and their story. But we ultimately had to sort of come to an ultimatum in season three, like what is our backstory now that you know the kids are on this planet that happens to be the origins of the masters of this This robot race, and they created them in their own image, and so you know, what are we going to do? What are we talking about? And why did this this robot race rebel? They didn't want to be kept, they didn't want to be sort of, you know, in servitude. So you know, how do we get there? And you know, on some level, our villain Saw has a good point, right, We weren't great to Scarecrow. We used him for his technology because he was the key to the engine. So is Will just another master? And that was something that we really talked about.
So does that mean that you've done the like J. R. R. Tolkien thing of writing the entire history of this alien race and only showing us the last few bits of it, or are there still things that you are leaving open for yourselves to discover as you do exploratory writing in the future.
Yeah.
I think in this case, it was what's important for our storytelling with these characters, and then what can we leave open, you know, for creating spin offs or new worlds and things like that.
I was also wondering in the process of writing, are there disagreements among the writers in terms of like how much science to factor in? Are there times when you sort of lost an argument where you're like, no, this has to be more scientific, and people like it doesn't matter, we want this emotional scene. You know, I don't name any names, but did you cut corners and places where you would have loved to have more science if it was you know, up to you.
Oh, I mean I'm a nerd, so I have to like reel myself in. You know what if we do, how is Marien going to get out of the tar? Or you know, I think a good writer's room is really balanced. So some people are really incredible character writers. Some people, you know, some people don't even care about the science, which I think is wonderful because they're pushing us in this direction. And then there are other people who I probably fall in the middle of the road spectrum where I love character work, and then I also get really nerdy, like I nerd out about the specifics of the science, and you know, want to make sure that we're truthy. You know, it can't be absolute. That it feels grounded and it feels believable and real. So yeah, there were a lot of discussions of how we make this work or hey, you know, our story, we don't have enough science in this it doesn't feel real, it doesn't feel believable. You know, what else can we do? Or hey, let's pull back because we're missing the emotion of the characters. So it's always a push, I think in a really wonderful way.
Is it a different experience working on a show that's explicitly science fiction than it is, for example, working in dark Crystal or you know, the rules are a little bit more flexible and fuzzy and you can almost do what you want. Is there a different feeling there in the writer's room?
Oh, definitely, I think. You know, there's there's a freedom and fun that comes with magic, and I think there's also in a way, there's a there's a different kind of freedom that comes when you're locked into the rules of a real world. And that definitely was the case. You know, oftentimes we would throw out crazy ideas and you know, we would talk about them. Those are cool, but that's not actually believable or we can't actually do that because that doesn't pass the you know, the snuff test for our baseline.
Well, we are unfortunately constrained by science in our universe. I wish we had magic. Well, wonderful, thank you very much for answering our questions and giving us a peek into the writing of a really fun show. Congratulations. Is there anything you can tell us about your upcoming projects? Where else we could see your writing and your projects that are coming out soon.
I just finished working on the spinoff for The Walking Dead, so Tales of the Walking Dead keep your eye out, be very fun. It's an anthology show. I think it's going to be really interesting and unique. And I have a couple of things in development that I can't talk about but very excited about, so hopefully I can share those with you soon.
All right, great, well, thanks again for joining us.
Oh thanks for having me Daniel, goodbye.
All right, that was a great interview. Thank you Carrie for being on the show. Daniel, what do you think is the main takeaway from talking to one of the writers of a major Netflix show.
I think that sounds like a really fun job, that's my takeaway.
Really, just get to sit around and come up with fun stories and sign and scientific ways to solve problems.
Yeah. I always wonder what it's like to be in the writer's room on some of these shows, and you hear things about how there's a toxic environment. But it sounds like they had a really nice time. They were friendly and they had fun together, and they were creative and they came up with some really good stories.
You know.
I think the new series is quite different from the old one, which I haven't seen, and it's quite creative in new ways. And so kudos to them for coming up with a lot of really interesting, compelling stories and sticking to the science as much as they could.
And I hear she calls herself a professional procrastinator.
Exactly, So the two of you have a lot in common.
Yeah, maybe I should work in television. Oh wait, I already do.
I guess that's the requirement.
All right, Well, go please check out the show Lost in Space available on Netflix. I guess in the US it's available on Netflix, but who knows international?
Yeah, or maybe on Alpha Centauri? Is Netflix there yet?
Yeah?
What are they watching over there?
They're watching Lost on Earth?
The alien British baking show. A baking show you the use purple chocolate?
Sounds delicious. I want to be a judge.
I wonder if they have nightmares about being stranded here on Earth. We are very friendly to aliens. If there are any alien bakers listening. Please bring your purple chocolate desserts. You'll be very friendly that. Sorry, bring your food, don't plan on making it here out of local ingredients. Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, See you next time.
Thanks for listening, and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. House US dairy tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and and electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more.
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