Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseDaniel and Jorge talk about alien arrival, as depicted on the show "Invasion" and Daniel talks to two of the writers, Tatiana Suarez Pico and Aditi Brennan Kapil about writing science fiction.
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Hey Daniel, you think a lot about aliens visiting us?
Right?
I do? Actually, I fantasize about it happening.
Oh boy, Well, what science fiction depiction of alien arrival do you think best matches what you hope and dream about?
Well, you know, I think the most fun scenarios are when we get to talk to the aliens and like learn secrets of the universe from them, you know, like in Star.
Trek, not the kind where it's like an action movie and there's a big war.
I think that's probably much more realistic that the aliens show up and just zap us from orbit, or they're so weird we can never talk to them.
Hmmm.
That sounds like less of a happy ending there or exciting movie.
I do think in reality it's more likely to go badly than well. When have two civilizations come into contact and then happily lived ever after.
I think there are lots of examples in human.
History, physicists and cartoonists for example.
Yeah, there you go to totally alien civilizations still working together after all these years.
We are a beacon of hope in the universe.
There you go. But do you still want aliens to come down if you think it's going to turn out badly?
Yes, I want to know that they exist.
That's just better for you, not for the rest of us.
Everybody benefits from this kind of knowledge, man, not.
As they get eaten. I guess you just please don't run for world president.
Not going to happen, and I have no chance of winning anybody.
Hi am Jorgemrick, cartoonists and the author of Oliver's Great Big Universe.
Hi. I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at u C Irvine. And please don't vote for me for world president.
That's the best campaigns logan I've ever hurt.
Then please do vote for me. I guess, I don't know. I don't want to be a real president.
Just don't run. Just don't run, is what I'm saying. You never know, you never know how people. They're crazy voters out there.
There are crazy voters out there. But I have enough politics in my department and my collaborations. I don't need anymore.
Yeah.
Yes, it's enough drama, I guess in our everyday lives, which is why it's good that we have things like science fiction and TV shows.
Right exactly, so we can watch other people's drama.
But anyways, welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.
In which we sit back and enjoy the incredible drama that is our universe, all of its deep mysteries, all of its mysterious functioning all of the mysterious beings and critters that might live out there in the universe and might one day come to talk to us about their experience. Our goal is to understand the entire universe. We think it's possible, and to explain all of it to you. We are sure that part is possible.
Yes, because it is an amazing universe, full of things beyond our imagination and things that are actually maybe a little bit within our imaginations, which can be pretty wild for some people.
And part of trying to understand the universe is expressing it in our terms, is getting answers to our questions like how did it all begin? And what's going on? And what are the rules? Questions that help shape the context of our lives that help us understand how we should live and why we should live, and what we should do with this time we have on earth. So it can be a fundamentally human experience, even if we're digging into the nitty gritty of how reality works.
Yeah, and thinking about reality and the universe is the job of scientists, but it's also the job of everyday people, not just people who consume science, but also artists and writers.
And a super fun. Way to explore these issues is to go beyond the questions of science and into the realm of science fiction, to imagine what might be out there in the universe. How could the universe work, what other critters could it be filled with? And what do they want for lunch?
Hopefully not us, hopefully somebody else, or hopefully they're vegan. Has anyone ever made a movie where the aliens are vegan?
Hmm?
But maybe they consider us plants?
Oh? Maybe they are plants.
Oh wow, they're here for revenge against the vegans.
Maybe the ethical thing for them is to eat animals.
Or maybe they come and kill all the vegans and leave only the carnivores. What if their plants, then they're out for revenge against the plant eating vegans. Right.
Oh, I see what you're saying, But I don't know that. I mean everyone eats, you know, some kind of plant.
I guess there are microbes out there that just eat sunlight. But I think the point of the comparison is that a lot of times these questions about aliens, where do they want, what are their values? Who would they eat if they came, are really questions about ourselves. How do we feel about the choices we're making in our lives and is our experience typical? So I love watching science fiction and reading science fiction to see people push those boundaries, to try to think outside the box of what the intelligent experience might be like.
Yeah, I guess it's useful to think about what we would do if we went out into the stars or if we landed on the moon. How would things change for us. It's kind of a useful exercise, right to prepare us mentally and maybe socially as well.
Absolutely, And so I'm a big fan of science fiction and on the podcast, we have a whole series of episodes where we read science fiction novels or watch science fiction television shows and then talk to the authors about how they built their science fiction universes and what it means to them.
And by we, Daniel mean said he does, and he tells me about it on the podcast for the benefit of everybody, that's right.
I have Kelly on some of those episodes, and she actually reads the book.
Mmmm.
So today on the podcast, we'll be tackling the science fiction universe of Invasion.
Right. Invasion is a show on Apple TV. They have a whole season out already in Season two is just now coming out, and as you might expect, the basic topic is invasion by aliens.
Didn't they have a couple of alien invasion shows Apple TV?
I don't know. I'm gonna have to watch this. There's so many alien inovasion shows. You know, there's like War the Worlds, but that's not on Apple. So there's a bunch of them.
Mmm.
How come there are on any alien like alien visitation shows, you know, and just like, hey, they're coming by for a visit.
Put out some cookies, make the good coffee. Aliens are coming.
Or like alien science shows, you know, like they come to study us.
Mm, wow, we are part of alien science.
It's like a documentary exactly.
Narrated by David Attenborough.
Yeah, maybe there's a alien David Attenborough out there with a soothing voice and a cool British accent.
The humans all gathered around the television once again.
To watch more television about aliens visiting.
Well, there are lots of depictions of alien invasion on television. This one I thought was kind of unique and sort of fascinating in lots of respects.
Mmmm, so you watched the whole first season?
I watched the whole first season and I'm caught up on season two.
Well, how is it different this show? Well, this show is a little bit less of like an action show. It's not really like a video game where you're seeing ships blast each other. It's really more from the point of view of people on Earth, and it tries to describe like how confusing and disorienting and weird it would be if aliens arrived, because you're not always having perfect information about everything that's happening across the planet.
MM sounds a little frustrating first of all, So no, no laser blasters.
No laser blasters, no Will Smith, Yeah, no Will Smith, No like zapping the White House and then everybody knows exactly what to do. It actually kind of reminded me a little bit of how we felt in the early days of the pandemic, when like, clearly something was going on, nobody liked it, but nobody exactly knew how bad it was and what was happening and what was dangerous and what wasn't you know, information gets distorted and propagates slowly and weirdly.
M I wonder if that was partly inspired by the pandemic.
I think probably it was, and it makes her a really fascinating show because it tries to give you a little bit of a preview of what it would be like for you if aliens invaded. They don't like come to your home or like appear on the television and explaining everything that's happening.
Well, I guess maybe it depends on how the aliens come and visitors. Right, they might do all any kind of thing when they come visit.
Right, Yeah, they might. Absolutely. This explores one particular kind of experience, and it's fun as if viewer because it forces you to sort of put the puzzle pieces together and figure out what might be happening and what the Aliens might be like. And they don't show you the Aliens until very close to the end of season one.
You have to wait a whole season to see the Aliens.
Yeah, well, because you know, most people don't get to meet those foreign visitors immediately. You're just on the ground trying to survive with your family or get home from your field trip that went a ride because of the Aliens attacked.
You know, what's the basic premise? Are they here for good reasons or bad reasons or I guess if they're being sneaky about it, it must not be for a good reason.
It's definitely not for good reasons. I mean, they're killing people, they're terraforming the planet. When they arrive, it definitely looks like they're set up for colonization. But the basic story follows like five different threads from around the world, people, what they experience, what they see. Then, as a viewer, you're trying to put it all together.
Sounds interesting. So who are these main characters?
So one group is a bunch of kids on a field trip which goes horribly wrong. You know, their bus is like bombarded with metal shrapnel and it falls into a quarry and have to like survive. It's a little bit of like a Lord of the Fly situation. And one of the kids has a bit of a neurological issue already, and he gets these weird visions which later we understand are him sort of weirdly communing mentally with the arriving aliens.
Wait, what, like he can he can think with the aliens.
Yeah, it turns out the aliens have a really interesting and creative way of communicating with each other, and some neuro atypical humans can sort of pick up on those signals.
WHOA, interesting, they can somehow think aliens.
Yeah, it's not so much that they're thinking in the alien language, is that they're like receiving the transmissions. And it's not a whole lot of fun.
It's not fun.
It's not fun to get alien messages beamed into your brain. According to this TV show.
Does it depend on what the aliens are thinking or it's just not a pleasant experience.
Yeah, it's not a pleasant EXTPCE experience for this kid.
All right.
Well, there's another really cool thread about an engineer who's in contact with an astronaut on the Space Shuttle. The Space Shuttle gets destroyed when the aliens arrive, but then they keep getting messages from the potentially dead astronaut. So then there's a mystery there of like is she really alive or has she been absorbed into the alien motherships somehow? It's a fun puzzle.
WHOA, wait, So the Space Shuttle out there in orbit and they think it got destroyed or do you see it get destroyed.
You definitely see it get bumped into by the arriving alien ship. Whether the astronauts survive is sort of the question.
I see so what else is going on around the world.
Yeah, so there's a few threads like that. There's another group of school kids who all get spontaneous nosebleeds except for again, one neuro atypical kid. Then he goes home and his neighborhood is like weirdly bombed, except for his house is left standing, and his neighbors are a little bit suspicious about how that might have happened.
Wait, what, like somehow his house was spared?
Yeah, somehow. So he's like a little bit of a weird kid. That's something of a theme in this show that certain humans get treated differently by the alien invasion, and that, of course causes tension among the humans, like, hey, how come your house didn't get blown up and mine did?
Is because they're tastier or because they taste bad?
It's not clear.
Stay tuned for season fifteen.
Yeah, and so it's a lot of fun and they're definitely creative and they're doing their best to show us aliens we haven't seen before. I think I can talk about it without spoiling it too much because season one has been out for a while.
Wait wait, wait, wait, maybe you should give a spoiler warning, though, I mean, if you have to wait for the whole season to see these Aliens, you're basically spoiling the whole season.
Yeah, all right, so maybe I won't spoil it. I'll just say that the Aliens just.
Give a spoiler alert and you can spoil it.
That's how it works, all right, Skip forward fifteen seconds if you don't want to hear this. But the Aliens are these weird black blobs that can sort of grow legs in any direction to move. So the way they move is this really strange kinetics sort of dance constantly growing legs out in front of them to touch stuff and move forward. It's very weird. They're sort of like microbes blown up to the macroscopic scale.
WHOA, sounds a little bit weird and scary. Are they friendly looking or are they sort of like, you know, like the alien movies terrifying.
They're not like the alien movies. They don't look like a predator, but they're definitely not friendly. And they get this sort of like creepiness from being so weird, from being so different from anything you've ever seen before. Like there's no face there to even like try to connect with.
Do they have like a mouth?
At least they do have a sort of kind of orifice that they used to gobble people up.
Oh wait, they do gobble people up. They do gobble people up, like eat them whole.
I don't know if you can describe it as digesting. But yet people definitely get killed and consumed.
Oh boy, at least the tasty ones.
Yeah, and so I really like this show, and the science of it is interesting. You know, they have these new ways for the aliens to communicate with each other, which might weirdly overlap with human brain patterns. Ships that arrive are these incredibly huge, like sort of Star Wars size destroyers, and they have really interesting terraforming technology to try to convert the atmosphere to something that the aliens could naturally breathe.
Interesting. All right, Well let's get into the size of the Apple TV show Invasion, and then later on Daniel has an interview with some of the writers from the show. So let's dig into those things. But first, let's take a quick break.
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All right, welcome back. We're talking about the science fiction universe of Invasion, the Apple TV show, which is about an invision of the alien kind.
Finally something that's well named.
Right, Yeah, it takes a writer to do that.
They did not have a physicist in charge.
Maybe all those tracking writers should go work for science help give better names.
Yeah, if we had funding, we would definitely hire more writers.
There you go. So we're talking about the TV show Invasion, which has a new season out right now. You can go watch the first season, I guess if you're subscribed to Apple TV, right mm hmm. And we talked a little bit about the tone of the show and what's going on. It's kind of a big mystery box about why the aliens are here, although it's pretty clear they're not friendly.
It's pretty clear that they want what we have.
They're not here to do science with the physicists. We're here to do dinner with the.
Physicists exactly, dinner of the physicists.
That's right, It's physics for dinner. So then you're saying there's some interesting science or at least science fiction in it, right.
Yeah, I'm always looking for a science fiction that creates new rules and then follows them, that gives us a new sort of mental space to play with, because the fun part for me in a science fiction show is the mystery and trying to solve it and trying to figure out like, huh, if the aliens can do this, then maybe this is the rule they follow and try to uncover what those rules are, just the same way we're trying to uncover the rules of the real universe. And so it's important to me that they're actually following some rules so that the detective game is fair in some respects. And this one, I think is definitely creative and follows those rules.
All right, Well, what are some of the rules?
Yeah, the aliens have some weird wave communicating supposedly with each other, and one crucial aspects of the plot is that some of the kids on the planet can sort of overhear it or can understand They get these visions of what the aliens are seeing. So what's the science of that? Like, well, you know, there's lots of waves you could communicate invisibly between brains, all sorts of electromagnetic waves or sound waves, you know, infrasound or whatever you could use to communicate.
Meaning like the aliens talk to each other telepathically to each other. I guess they don't speak. Somehow they're transmitting information between their brains.
Somehow they're transmitting information between their brains.
Which could just be like an electromaine signal, right, like a radio signal.
Absolutely the same way that our phones talk to each other. You don't hear them speaking, but they're definitely passing messages back and forth. And the question is, like, is it plausible for the human brain to be able to pick up those messages and interpret them as images? I mean, android and iPhones can't even really talk to each other.
Right, that seems pretty unlikely. It's almost like you could overhear yourself your cell phone, right, like you could somehow envision what picture you're sending one person is sending another person through your brain, like somehow, that seems unlikely that it would resonate in your brain.
Somehow, it seems unlikely that your brain would know how to interpret that. You know, that those signals could be assembled by your brain into an image in your mind. And it seems pretty hard to imagine, but you know, it stretches the bounds of plausibility but doesn't quite break it. I mean, it is possible that there's just sort of like the natural way for a brain to represent images, and aliens in humans happen to have it in common. I mean, it seems unlikely, but it's not impossible.
Oh, I see, like maybe they map it out in a similar way or something.
I mean, there are studies that show that when you think about a memory, you have an image in your mind, there's a physical representation of that in the neurons in your brain that have a similar physical relationship. You can like see images in people's brains of what they are thinking if you scan it in the right way. So it's not impossible that an alien image could, you know, tweak your neurons in a certain way to make you see something.
It's possible all right, what else do we have in this world?
The rest of the world is pretty straight up like huge ships. Yeah, sure, Aliens could probably build huge ships. Would they have terraforming technology? Yeah? Probably. Terraforming is pretty challenging you want to do it on a short time scale. If you need to replace the atmosphere of an entire planet, it's a pretty big project. You can't just like have one pump to create methane or whatever it is you need to breathe. You need pretty massive, industrial sized converters. But they bring those along, and so that is totally plausible that the Aliens could convert our atmosphere to theirs in a fairly short time. They do have these very powerful pumps.
One thing about huge ships is I always wonder how they land and how they stay afloat. Now do these big ships of the Aliens, do they land on Earth or do they stay hovering above the White House and things like that.
No, they just hover above. Then they send down little landing ships.
Like are they in orbit or are they actually just floating?
That's a good question. I hadn't considered the orbital mechanics of it. They're pretty close to the surface, so I think it'd be pretty challenging to be in orbit, so they must be hovering someway.
Just magically floating. That's one thing that always gets me. It's like the amount of energy you need hold something up that big would be huge unless they have some sitt like anti gravity.
Right, Yeah, you're right, and that would be applying a force downwards on the ground and so you'd be able to see them on the ground if they're not just like manipulating gravity somehow.
Right, Yeah, do we need to manipulate gravity? Cool? Well, it's a lot of interesting things to think about here, and to check out the Apple TV show Invasion. Now, Daniel, you got to interview a couple of the writers from the show I did.
I got in touch with Tatiana Suarez Pico and a Dt Brennan Kapil. Both of them are writers on season two of the show, and both of them have really interesting stories about how they came to become science fiction writers. They both started as playwrights actually, and one of them was an actor before becoming a writer.
Interesting. All right, Well, here's Daniel's interview with Invasion writers Tatiana Suardrez Pico and Adit Brennan Capill.
Okay, So then it's my great pleasure to welcome to the program the writers Tatiana Suarez Pico and Adit Brennan Capill, who are both science fiction writers. Extraordinary. Thank you very much for joining us today.
Thank you so much for having us.
So first, tell us a little bit about your background, how you guys got into writing, how you got into science fiction and television. Tell us the.
Story I am. This is a Diti speaking. I am originally a playwright, and I drifted into TV and film writing the way that many playwrights do. You know, TV and film actually got really really exciting at one point, and oddly, possibly unusually, my plays tended to have a little bit of a genre twist to them, like I actually wrote things that were like epic metaphoric sci fi ish work or you know, mythologically inspired work, Like there was always some kind of something in there, which when people ask me about it back then, I think I might have attributed it to being Indian, because I feel like Indian people have like a really specific like if you look at the like the Ramayana, there was a spaceship like I think we have very very old school sci fi cred and what I got here and started writing TV and film. I think a lot of what I ended up doing was in the genre space, and specifically in the sci fi space. For me, I think it has a lot to do with the fact that if you want to tell radical stories, oftentimes it's both more fun and easier to tell them if you're in another world in a way, so that you can sort of take the pieces of it that may have been too close to home that there might have been resistance to in terms of oh, I'm uncomfortable with that subject matter, or I'm feeling a little you know, preached to or something. You put it in a grand adventure, you put it in space, and all of a sudden you can talk about really difficult topics and people are like, yeah, but it's just a yarn and I'm having a good time and I get to sneak more radical content and on people that way. And that was true and I was writing plays, and it's true for writing TV and film.
It's amazing to me how many people don't realize that Star Trek is like deeply political and progressive. You know, It's like, oh, it's about aliens, so it's no reflection on us.
Yeah, you can get really feminist too when you get into like, yeah, it's really interesting what you can get away with that. There would be serious resistance too if you were like in a more grounded space.
Yeah, and Tatiana, what's your story?
You know, I didn't know it was my dream. So I was an actor first, and I went to grad school for that, and then I went to did a postgrad program for playwriting, and so I did that for a little bit, probably not as extensively as I would have liked to, because as soon as I graduated from that program, I ended up working in television. And that's just because I wrote a play that an agent liked and said, I think I can get you a job in la And I said what do I have to do and he said, just be yourself and I said, okay, I got this.
So you were discovered.
Yeah, I mean sure, the way that any agent will look for material that they think they can market in some way, because at the end of the day, it is a business. So that's how I ended up doing this. And like I said, I really didn't know it was a job. I loved movies and I thought there were actors and producers and I never thought about writers. I don't know why, and I certainly, even though I wrote for a long time before I consider myself myself a writer. I never thought anyone would pay me actual money to write, and somehow I thought people would pay me to act. So it's kind of silly, but that led me to a variety of jobs and the genre space. And what I realized is that the things that I wanted to do as an actor, which was be able to pay a play a variety of characters and actions and places and people and things, I actually gravitated toward that In writing like that, the ability to create worlds seemed really really exciting and really will suit it to me, Like I was able to jump into that, into whatever the space is with I think with the spirit of play, I'm like, okay, go, So I think that that's that's how I ended up here.
It's incredible to me how important it is to sort of know what the possibilities are in order to get access to them. Do you think there are still like jobs out there you don't even know exist that it might be well suited to you, Like, oh, I didn't know you could be a studio head and control entire production budgets or you know, things beyond that.
I think there are less jobs now that I know, just because of the experience, but I am certain there are things that I'm like, wow, who does that? I mean, even when when I think of science, I'm like, maybe I should have studied science that that's actually changing the world and you know, sort of forgets in humanity in some very tangible way. But I'm sure there are jobs out there and possibility I should say that I have yet to explore and understand.
I know I have a very limited skill set. I think I managed to find the exact right groove form my skill set.
Well, I'm so glad that happened.
As am I there was a possibility of just.
What are we gonna do?
I don't know.
It's a really good thing. I was able to monetize the thing I do.
That's wonderful. So we have a set of questions that we ask all science fiction writers that we bring on the show to sort of like put them on the spectrum of concepts. So these are generic questions, not necessarily about your writing, And the first one is a little bit of philosophy. Do you think that Star Trek transporters kill you and clone you on the other side, or actually transport your atoms somewhere else. Is it a murder machine or a teleportation device.
I need to believe that it's a teleportation device. I'm very unc comftable with a murder machine because there's those times when they get like lost and they have to be found and if they were in fact death. No, no, no, no, I'm going with teleportation.
Machine because you think it's true, or because you need it to be true.
I would never travel by that means if it wasn't like, I don't know why any of them would get on that little like thingy if it wasn't I don't Yeah, no, uh huh.
I think that that would be It might be a selling point for people if they were actually killing you like you, you know, cross and to the other side and that you're new, you're born again.
You know that's a thing.
Hey, why disassembled? Could you actually take out this thing that I don't like? That would be great.
Could you make me a little taller.
It's like a really in depth colonoscopy here. We're just going to disassemble. You will take out the stuff that's not great. We'll put you back together. Not to worry, but but I do.
I do think that it would be sort of like a selling point if you were actually dying, like what what happens? And that are you conscious? In the between and the in between? You know what I mean?
Like what I don't even take roller coasters? Like no, you can have trouble. I think convincing certain types of people to ever be transported. I would be in a shuttle every time if that was the case.
Is there a train to get there?
Exactly? Could I row?
If anybody piloting thing.
Give me one of those little like rocket packs, I'll just tell beach there.
I like the dea the in between, But I don't think. I don't think they're actually killing you. It feels like it's like some sort of three D printing something something that tran transports.
So now you're being cloned. Well, guys, that I'm thinkpened up a whole thing where there are several of me existing on several different places. Because I've been killed and reassembled so many times, and what if I wasn't really dead? What if that big transportation device now has created these theories of alternate We're so screwed you, guys.
Which one is really you?
That would be really interesting, like what happens.
But it's a fundamental flaw in the construction, Like, you do not want that machine. You want a simple machine that guarantees that you're the same person on the other.
Side, like a robot. Yeah no, that's the philosophical advantage of a robot right there. All right, So second general question is what technology in science fiction would you most like to see become reality.
Well, frankly, teleportation really excellent. That would be super convenient. I really don't enjoy the time it takes to travel places.
I mean, I think it's a version of time travel, right, I mean, I think we do it in the like in the present when you get on a plane and you end up in the future someplace else in the world. I mean, it's also like the ability to I don't know, fly at the speed of light. I don't know, like travel is whatever that is. But the idea that you could go back and forth in time and somehow affect your future and then know at what point in your future you could show up.
I feel like I'm learning so much about Tatiana right now. I feel like just the fact that your brain is like the little death is fascinating. Also, time travel is an airplane? It is, it is.
I mean I als would make a joke about this, but I'm like, how is the future? Because they are technically in the future eight hours and hours eighteen hours ahead, You're like, how you know?
Time slippery? All right? Last general question is what's your personal answer to the Fermi paradox? If the galaxy is vast and old, why haven't we been visited by aliens? I think we have.
Okay, I don't have any tangible scientific proof, so I you know, other than it's a conjecture. But I I mean, maybe those videos that you see on the internet of UFOs are made up, right, those like where you see an aircraft going Maybe they are.
Maybe they're just.
A trick. But who says that they have not? And maybe we're not very interesting. Maybe we're too primitive. Maybe it's just a couple of people who visited or I don't know, and you know the way that you would visit a foreign country and be like maybe not they're.
They stop by, they didn't like the coffee they left.
These people are doing I mean, they're you know, they're they're gonna end up killing each other anyway, So can we just like observe and then leave? So that's what I mean, who's to say that they haven't visited? I think that's my take on it.
I guess I think, what if we're just a blip, you know, what's to visit? Do you know what I mean? Like it's such an insane accident of biology and evolution and cosmic dust that we even are like this, you know, and that we have a planet that's like teeming with life and perhaps that weird cosmic accident is and then at some point, which is maybe soon in a cosmic sense, will no longer be And that's just kind of all there is to it. And maybe there's a blip of some kind elsewhere, But is that something that we're really privy to given what a blip.
We are, you know, meaning that we don't live for very long, and so our civilizations just might not overlap with other blips.
Sure, and we're not very important, so why Like it's sort of it feels like, though, why haven't we been visited? And why haven't we encountered? Is such a human centric way to think to begin with? If we're not the center of the universe. Then it's just it's an accident of whatever what we do encounter and what we will don't encounter and what we'll never encounter, and we'll just sort of like live our weird little ephemeral existence and that'll be that and whatever we get to see that's cool, I guess, But I don't know, like something. You know, I work in theater. I used to work in theater where things are and then they aren't. Like I'm all about the ephemeral. Yeah, I guess I just don't think that the universe is organized around our experience.
Well, I think it's fascinating in science fiction how a lot of it really is the projection of the human experience to say, well, if we were around for long enough, we would explore the whole galaxy, so therefore other aliens must also be doing that. But really we're just thinking about what we would do, and it's impossible to really put ourselves in the minds of aliens.
And our desire to encounter something that we can understand so that we can interpret it. I mean, I also think that we do presume alien life, which I'm totally fine with presuming alien life. What are the odds that we would even understand it, you know that it would register, or they.
Even want to understand us.
Yeah, or have wants, I mean wants seem like a very human thing.
Well, that brings me to a question I wanted to ask you. When you're writing science fiction and you're portraying aliens, seems to me like there's a bit of a choice there, Like, you can make aliens extremely alien, which I think is probably more realistic, but then it makes them emotionally totally inaccessible. Right, we can't see what they're thinking, we can't know what they're feeling, we can't even talk to them. Or you can make them less realistic and more human, but then you can know what they want and there's motivations and you see their internal politics. What do you like to write on that spectrum more realistic but inaccessible, or less realistic but more understandable.
I guess Philosophically, I think the exploration of the something that is completely other is really interesting and can reflect interestingly on our humanity and how we perceive the world, how we think about ourselves in the context of the universe. However, pragmatically speaking, if you want to have scenes with said aliens, it really helps if they have a face.
Like it really really helps if they have a face. It is incredibly hard for us with our human brains, because ultimately, here's the thing. We are writing and filming and communicating and acting for a human audience.
So ultimately we really really have to gear what we're doing to a human brain and how a human brain receives information. It is really hard to have a scene with something that doesn't have a face. It's hard to invest it with emotion, intent, it's hard to give at any of those things. So I enjoy the inscrutability of you know, cosmic dust, I guess, but I think depending on the nature of the show, if it is a show that wants to actually interact and have conversations, then you need to anthropomorphize just a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. I think that. You know, my dad used to watch Star Trek, but I grew up in Columbia, so I used to watch it in Spanish, so beah, hey, lesi strages. That was I think, and I think what he was most excited about, and what I got most excited about, by proxy, was that there were all these aliens, right, these other planets and people that lived inhabited these other planets that had wants and needs and whichever way they were using them to discuse a variety of themes and topics that applied to humans and humanity in our world. Those other people, those other creatures or beings were being used to reflect our own wants and needs and things. But I think that in order to have actual drum, like Aditi said, you do need them to want something. And that's not to say that you don't relish some degree of alertness, right like VI the invasion, they were like lizards, right, and there was scary and hard to look at, and Diana was evil and all of that, and I think, but I think that that that's their otherness was scary and interesting, and I think you can make a meal a lot of that in any scenario, in any sort of sci fi show or world. But yeah, I agree with ideally you want them to want something.
Like if you look at Star Wars where they had kind of a medley, you just need eyes, Like if you just have eyes and maybe noise, you're okay. You can get emotion like Chewy, And honestly, the robots are like some of my I get so they make me emotional as emotional, if not more, as you know, the humans.
Even Joba the Hut has needs.
I was gonna say that Jaba the Hut, I mean, I said, so little, but yet so much, you know, like you understand which side jaa?
So then what about on Invasion? We see the aliens very briefly, but when we do see them, they're very other. There are no eyeballs, there's no faces. We get some sense of, like, you know, malevolence. Tell us about writing with such weird aliens?
Actually, I should say neither of us worked on the first season of Invasion. We both worked on the second season and for the second season because we're in the middle of airing. In addition to the fact that we're on strike and not promoting, we also can't and shouldn't spoil, So there's that component. But I think what I you know, what I'll talk about the first season? Well, I think what I enjoyed about the aliens on Invasion and also about the slow burn of the kind of invasion approach to sci fi, was the very, very creepy, eerie unknown of what is happening to us, which feels so so radical in a kind of in a filmography where we are accustomed to we're under attack, how do we fight back? We fight back, and usually it's literally DC fighting a mothership, like you know, it's like the White House is blown up, we shoot the thing.
You know.
It's very binary and very literal and very linear, and who is the enemy is very clear.
It's like a video game usually, yeah, very much so.
And it's it's nice, it's very convenient for storytelling, like you've got your hero, you know where to point your hero. But there's something so disruptive and disturbing about not about something is happening to us, to the planet, to us as a humanity, and we can't quite figure out what and how do we go about that? And how does the information reach the various pockets that it reaches when it reaches them, and how do you interpret the weird fragments and then information that you have, and that includes what the aliens look like. I mean, they're incomprehensible. They're like, well, they don't have eyes, you know what I mean, they have a mouth, which is good and scary or like something that feels ritificy anyway, But it's that sort of I think that the game, especially in season one, and I shall refrain from spoiling season two. The game that season one plays is very much that's sort of like down to the ground realistic. How do you figure out from the shrapnels of information that you have what is happening? And how terrifying is it to not even be able to identify the nature or the source of this threat that is clearly killing you. You know, it's scary in a human way. It's scary the way disease is scary, which I think is fascinating and I take no credit for because I didn't work out season one.
I think there was also an effort to make those particular creatures unlike any human or anything that you've ever seen, because the less they look like you, the less you're able to think or imagine that you can relate to these things that are in front of you. And I think the little bit that I can say of a Season two is once again because it's erring and strike stuff. I feel like the Joy and the Jews and that story is that it's discovering how they are unlike us, or how they are like us, you know, where and how could we possibly communicate with a language and a language that we don't understand. So, like the way that you know, what's your name, Amy's the language especialist. The linguist tries to communicate with beings that do not communicate the way that you do. So I think that there's a joy in that and an excitement and a fear for the characters.
Yeah, wonderful. Tell me a little bit about what it's like to work on a project like this where the universe has been somewhat set up already, because I know the season one was written basically by the creators of the show, and then you guys got brought in for season two. Do they like read you in and all the secrets that are coming down the roads to make sure that your writing is consistent with it with that, like to sort of operate in somebody else's universe that they've begun to build.
Yeah, I mean I would say that yes to what you said. I believe they had like a writer's room before, and that was done a way, and that was for season one, and then there was a fairly mostly new writers from for season two, and I think the spirit of that season two room was we're going to let you in on all the secrets, but also we are so open to you bringing in ideas and also your ideas as a viewer. Right, I think by now I watch season one like six times, you know, and there's you know, because of all the clues and the things, and where can we grow the story? So there was a spirit of openness and what else can you bring.
To the table.
How can we make this exciting? What was exciting for you as a viewer watching the show in the first season?
I mean, I kick ditto, yelp.
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Okay, we're back and we're talking to the writers of the TV show Invasion. Compare what it's like for us working on a big studio project like this with a lot of your other work you both worked on, you know, as playwrights, where it's just you and the blank page and nobody's giving you notes. I'm assuming to working on a project like this with this many levels of review and discussion, And what's that like? Which one is more fun for you or the pros and cons?
Oh, they're such wildly different beasts. Kind of the beauty of TV writing. But also the biggest difference for me between it and writing a play, or even writing a screenplay or you know, an audio play or anything that is just mine is that in TV, the showrunner is the lead artist, and everything you do really fantastic, gorgeous. I love this aspect of it way is in service to the lead artist's vision. So it's like in the case of Invasion, Invasion is Simon Kinberg's show, and the case of the show I did for Netflix years ago away, the showrunners were the really, really lovely amazing Wise Andrew Hinderocker and Jessica Goldberg. And when you come into any TV room where you're inventing together, and you have to invent together, and you have to all right, and you have to all live in the same world, and you have to somehow get into that space where you're all inhabiting the same world. But what's helpful to always remember is that ultimately that world is the showrunner's creation. That's their baby. That's who has in their gut the knowledge of what this needs to be and wants to be. And you're playing in that sandbox. So the really stark difference for me is when it's mine, When it's all my sandbox, it is mine, like I am. I am not even the showrunner. I'm just like the god of that little universe. My plays, they are mine, they are my universe. I create them, I make them go any which direction I please. At some point I might be in service to someone else, but not even really Like I'm in dialogue. I love collaboration. What's fun about a writer's room is it's like improv all day long with your friends and then thankfully there's someone who invented this world, who can go yeah, I love that. Now let's not do that. Yeah, great, go that way. No no, no, no, I don't like that at all, and you're like, cool, I'll go that way. And when it's my world, I spend quality time thinking really hard about what it is I'm trying to communicate to the world. I spend quality time thinking about, you know, like what the truth underneath a scene is that I have to excavate in order to make it the most honest, profect, insightful thing that I can say. And it's hard, and it's like taking your innerds and smearing them across a page and it takes forever, and it's agonizing writers' rooms. Yes, it's like that when you're writing, because you want to give them your best work. But it's not quite that painful. It's like play with your friends, you know what I mean, Because you have buddies. I can be like Patiana, I hate this scene so much, tell me something, and she tells me a joke and I go, oh, okay, wait, I think I got it, and I go you know, it's just a visceral difference in terms of process and also in terms of whether you're in service or whether you are the artist who is just stating a thing.
Yeah, I think it's also a degree of community work, right, because theater is community work once there is a project and a creation on the table, right, And then you bring in a designer, and you have a director, and you have the actors, and you have a sound designer, and you may have a theater an artistic director of a theater who is also chiming in, And it feels like TV is very much a community effort from the get go. You know, even even with the creator slash showrunner, a creator and a showrunner that work together, having those people as people who are have created or given birth to quote unquote given birth to a project in a world it's very community oriented from the get go. And it also depends on how flexible your creators or showrunner and or show runner are and how willing they are to stretch and open up the world in different ways that they could have ever imagined. Some people are like, no, it is this way, this is the only way I want it, and that is completely fine. And then the other, you know, the other end of that spectrum is like, I'm very open to shaping this and taking it to a place where I never imagined it could go.
I'm wondering also about the process of like setting up the rules for the world. Is it more like, here's the universe we created, let's figure out what the natural stories are, what it's like to be a human in this world, what it's like to live through this experience. Or is it more like, here are the stories we want to tell, you know, we'll figure out the rules as we go along, which is a sort of more natural process for you.
It's a very personal question, right because and it also depends on the story.
Some stories require.
That you have rules from the get go, even the Tella Transporters, right, like, I know that they added like a machine that control the tele transporting device and Star Trek, and then they were like, oh, this falters. Here's a problem, you know if you mess with it. But I think that there are rules like maybe we never see the in between. That's the rule, you know, because we don't want people to go there. But I think it really depends on the story that you're telling. I tend to do characters and wants and needs and then go like, well they can't have it because or they can't have this, or they can or they want some forbidden because and why is it forbidden in that world? And then the rules store is sort of populating the world. But I've certainly worked on shows where it was like the rules are you know, I worked on the second iteration of this is in sci fi, but it's genre certainly in period Penny Dreadful, but it was in la and the.
Rules were very clear.
You know, it's like it's period and the level of horror is this, and this is what the person who's inhabiting, who's being inhabited were possessed by the devil. This is what they can do. You know, they can't walk through walls, but they can get into your head, you know what I mean. But they can't. So those rules were very clear, and they were set by the showrunner, by John Logan. So as an example of rules are clear, you cannot break them Otherwise, you know, you're sort of pulling apart and tearing apart the fabric of the world in the show.
It's so particular, particular the creator. I tend to search for the story and the perfect vessel to marry, like I is my thing, Like I feel like I can meander through bazillion thoughts in my head. But unless I come across one where I go ooh, this story inside this vessel look like a perfect marriage to me, then I don't. I can't start, like I need the vessel too in order to begin. So I think I tend to have structure and some rules, a universe in mind. That there's to what degree is your project, your story, accountable to rules? How much do you care about them? Because I think about I think about really geeky sci fi stories where they clearly care so much about the science, right, that's what gives them that tingle in their spine, right, And then I think about others where it's really just there to be a metaphor, it really truly is, you know, like I rem am I getting in trouble for this. I remember when I saw gravity. We got to the end, and I was like, it was just a metaphor. Was there was no space travel? As far as I'm concerned, it was entirely a metaphor about coming out of grief, how one comes out of grief. When she walked out of that water at the end, I was like, how she even alive? That's right, Oh, it's just a metaphor, just a metaphor, and that's great. As long as the thing knows what it is, I think it holds up as a narrative. And I'm completely fine with the story existing in space and just being an emotional metaphor. And I'm completely fine with the meticulous math of you know, Chris Nolan figuring out exactly how many layers of reality he needs his characters to drop through, where I'm like, oh my god, I can't. So it's like those rules, also, I think, are so particular to the individual, and I think probably both To and I have worked for people who fall everywhere on that spectrum of what it is they care about for the purposes of their story. And I find that it takes me a minute to calibrate my brain to oh, I may be more obsessed right now with the science than you are, and I'm going to have to just go icee, icee, icee. Okay, it's a different vibe. This is a different vibe of story. This is where this hangs out. Let me step back and try to place myself there, because again, I am of service, right, But it's so particular. It's it's such an interesting thing. It's voice, it's the artist's voice. So DT and I.
Worked on Invasion for like eighteen months straight without break. I feeling a ddu were keeping us. You were like keeping us on track in terms of the whatever rules we had created for the world. You were like, but the rules, but but wait, why are we How could they possibly No? I just remember a couple of times writers from where you were like, my mind is exploding because how could they possibly do this when we've said this about the world. So I think it was a very good You were great to have in the room because when we thought about it, we were like, jeez, right, can't they can't They can't do what we want him to do. That's ridiculous.
That's actually a really good thing. Also, in a TV writer's room, you can sort of have a variety of people who care about a variety of things, and they will give voice to those things, and then the showrunner, the lead artist, whoever the lead artist is, can be like, yep, I care about that. I don't care about that. I have care about that, And yes, I think my jam on actually probably a couple of shows I've worked on is But guys, the seconds, the rubles, I.
Want to say that that's really important this is why, because whenever I've watched the show just as a viewer and the logic just doesn't add up with the rules that you've given me, I'm like, check out. I'm like, that doesn't make sense. I stopped watching and start judging because I can't engage any longer because I've suspended my disbelief and you've given me rules, and I'm like, okay, great, I've got the rules of the world. I'm now going to you know, and the moment those things are start to fall away, you start to check in with reality and suspend your suspension of disbelief, is going like, oh shut up, that would never happen because you told me this before. So I think that that it is really important. And once again, as a DT said, the showrunner will decide, you know, whether that's a rule that we want to sustain for a particular scene or not. But I think it's really important to keep that and you definitely did that for us in that room. So on behalf of everybody.
Thank you, Yes, thank you very much. Personally, as a scientist, whenever I see science fiction, I'm always trying to solve the puzzle. Why is it this way? What's going on, and if I feel like the rules aren't being followed, then I feel like the puzzle is unsolvable. And then it's like I feel the tree.
Sometimes it's just a metaphor.
Sometimes it's just a metaphor. So my last question for you is, having spent eighteen months working on this show and thinking deeply about Aliens and arrival and all this kind of stuff. If you heard that Aliens were arriving, would you think, ye, good news for Earth, We're going to learn secrets of the universe, or a bad news We're going to be lunch.
Definitely bad news.
I was going to say the same, but only because we did spend that amount of time being like, you know, all these horrible things happening on Earth, and there were so many downsides to that. How that ends up in the story is a different story altogether. But you know what, it's also because of some because so much sci fi depicts the other the visitors as evil. I think my first thought would be nothing can come out of us, But I want to be proven wrong. There everybody out there, if they could listen to this podcast to bring a hell for you to come and have coffee with us and prove me wrong, that there is much to learn from other people and beings, and that they may possibly could learn something from us, if I could be so arrogant to say that.
So this probably falls back into my but we're cosmic dust thing. Have you guys read this really really kind of fascinating thinky sci fi novel called The Sparrow. It's Mary Doria, Maria Doria Russell. Mary's something Doria Russell apologies, I should fix that. So I think colonialism is why I think it's bad news. Not because they come here because they're determined to wipe us out with their amazing super weapons, necessarily because that feels again very human centric to me, but because is there a story of first contact that we know that hasn't resulted in some couldn't have foreseen it disaster.
Not with humans involved.
Now, I don't know if we're going to be bad for them or they're going to be bad for us. That if they're coming, I'm going to say they're the colonizers. But even if they come with the best of intentions, you know that the smallpox are coming, you know what.
I mean, like cosmic smallpox.
I don't see how that's not the case, and that was sort of the kind of inner workings theme of the well intentioned space travelers in the Sparrow, which I thought was a really clever novel, really kind of like well etched story.
So what do you think, Dan, would you think if you know they came to visit they what's your take on it.
I think there's an incredible opportunity there to learn about the universe from a really alien perspective. I think so much of our science is probably colored by our humanity in a way that we can never unravel, in the way that you can never really see your own cultures imprint on your choices and your values. So I think there's an incredible opportunity there, But I think it's much more likely that if they do come, they will be so alien and so other that we will never be able to communicate with them and learn those secrets if they do have them, and probably, you know, we'll end up like in that Far Side cartoon where they look like a hand and some farmer picks them up and shakes them and dooms the earth to devastation, you know, some simple mistake of miscommunication disaster. You don't know every Far Side cartoon by heart that it depicts aliens. Oh my gosh, but I'm an optimist at heart, and I'm looking forward to it. If aliens come, then at least we will have learned one thing about the universe, which is there are aliens. So before we get zapped from orbit, you know, we'll have gained a tiny bit of knowledge.
So somebody can ask what to kiss along exactly?
Do you think we'd accurately be able to identify them as Like? Do you think we even have the ability to identify life as life? Do you know what I mean?
Like, we don't even know what life is. We can't even define it very well. So part of that learning would be understanding what kind of things we can discover and we can't discover, and you know where those boundaries are. The more we learn about life, the more we realize we should be looking for in all sorts of weird places.
It assumes that they are, like there's some sort of degree of consciousness, right, So we just don't know what package it would come in.
Guys. Earlier today, I was walking around in my backyard and I think I stepped on an alien and wept out an entire species. And that's the end of that, it looked like dust. It was dust.
How many times have you done that without even knowing?
So many?
All right, well, thanks very much for sharing all of your thoughts about your process, about your experience and the philosophy of Star Trek. Really appreciate your time and your jokes and for sharing your gift of writing with us.
Thank you for having us this is yeah, thank you?
All right, pretty invasive conversation, sort of are they actually aliens? Do you think? Is that how they know so much?
Well? On the video they seemed like humans and they definitely had a human sense of humor, and you could tell that they really enjoyed working together. They spend a lot of time in that writers room together, hammered a lot of stuff out, and they got pretty deep and philosophical. So this is a pretty thoughtful group.
All right. Well, the show is called Invasion. It's on Apple TV. You can check out the second season right now.
That's right, And if you are a fan of science fiction and you like these episodes, right to me to send your recommendations for authors and writers we should talk to. Send it to questions at Danielandjorge dot com.
All right, Well, we hope you enjoyed that, and next time you look up to this guy, you think about who might be out there and what might happen if they come visit us or if we come visit them. Eventually. Thanks for joining us, See you next time.
For more science and curiosity, come find us on social media, where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discord, Install, and now TikTok. Happy holidays from everyone here at the podcast. If you're looking for a science themed gift for someone in your family, or just to treat yourself, please can are buying one of our books. Our first book, We Have No Idea, explores all of the things science does and doesn't know about the world, from what is mass to what happened before the Big Bang. It's essential reading for fans of the podcast, and it's filled with lots of hilarious cartoons drawn by Jorge, which you'll miss if you only listen to the pod. And it's available in dozens of languages, from Greek to Korean to English, of course, and there's an audiobook read by me, so check out We Have No Idea. Our second book, frequently asked questions about the universe answers many of the common questions we get from listeners. Where's the center of the universe? Why can't we travel through time? What happens if you fall into a black hole? Frequently ask questions about the universe is also available in audio and in many many languages. So treat yourself for your family to a dose of science and humor this year. If we have no idea or frequently ask questions about the universe available at reputable and disreputable booksellers everywhere. They make a wonderful gift for you, and it's the best way to support your favorite podcast. Happy holidays.
Hi, this is Kelly Weenersmith.
You may remember me from such DJU conversations as that one time Daniel said something that would scare my kids, or that other time Daniel said something about how we're all gonna.
Die, which would probably scare my kids.
Anyway, my husband and I wrote a book about the biological, psychological, technical, legal, and ethical issues we still need to solve before we settle space. The book is called A City on Mars and the bottom half of the expanses James sa Corey.
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Hey Tore from the podcast. This holiday season, If you're looking for a great gift for your kids, give him a copy of Oliver's Great Big Universe, my new book filled with signs, cartoons and a hilllarious story. It's a big kid with kids and curious adults who love to read, so check it out at Great Big Universe dot net.
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When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact, but the people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. House US dairy tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more.
There are children, friends, and families walking, riding on passing the roads every day. Remember they're real people with loved ones who need them to get home safely. Protect our cyclists and pedestrians because they're people too.
Go safely.
California from the California Office of Traffic Safety and Caltrans
