Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseListener Questions 62: Single photons, moon gold and particle interactions.
Daniel and Jorge answer questions from listeners like you! Send your questions to questions@danielandjorge.com
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Hey Daniel, how should we open this episode?
Hmmm? Maybe we should just think about the topic and try to come up with something funny.
Can we think of anything funny? After six hundred episodes, I.
Think we might be scraping the bottom of the barrel of creativity here.
How about we just jumped the shark, or have we jumped the shark already?
I don't know why people are so down on jumping the shark. That sounds like a lot of fun to me.
Jumping shark. I guess it depends on the shark. Like a whale shark. That's pretty harmless, great white shark.
I'd rather steer clear.
I jump a dark matter shark any day.
Okay, we might have just jumped a shark for real time. A dark matter shark. What are you talking about?
I have a special coming out of the Discovery Channel. Dark matter weather matters, tornadoes, and sharks.
It's a dark Nato.
You just named it.
Well, I had to jump at the chance.
You know.
Hi, I'm Horam, a cartoonist and the author of Oliver's Great Big Universe.
Hi.
I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine. And I'm not a great water skier.
Are you a great skier at all? Or any kind of skiing?
I'm bad at all sorts of high speed, dangerous and expensive.
But you want to jump the shark though it's a little bit contradictory there.
I guess you can jump the shark and not be good at skiing.
Yeah, aspirations don't have to be realistic.
Right, Uh yeah, I guess you don't want to jump the gun on that. But anyways, welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.
In which we try to jumpstart your understanding of the nature of the whole universe, everything that's out there in the cosmos. We seek to understand it and to break it down now and explain all of it to you. This is your one stop shop for getting all of your questions answered about literally everything in the universe.
That's right.
We are literally jumping at the chance to leap to conclusions about our amazing universe so that we can.
Understand it more and know not only how it all works.
But also what is our place in it and what does it mean for us to be here talking about it.
But we're also not shy to admit when we don't know the answer, which is the case for most questions, because it's not all that hard to gage yourself to the forefront of human understanding or confusion about the nature of this amazing, beautiful and kind of crazy cosmos, So we encourage you to engage your brain and to think about it yourselves. Do you understand how it works? What questions do you have about how this universe operates?
Yeah, because it's with questions that all of science starts, questions that are not just asked by scientists but also people like you. Because there are still a lot of questions out there for us to try to find the answer to.
And we want to hear your questions. We want to know when there's something that doesn't make sense to you, maybe something that we said, or something that you read, or just an idea that you had about the universe that isn't quite clicking in your brain. Send it to us to questions at Danielandhorgey dot com. We really do right back to everybody.
And sometimes we pick those questions to answer on the podcast release try to answer it real, least talk about it real, least ad mid We don't know the answer, but it takes us a whole hour to figure that out.
Sometimes we just jump over the question on water skis instead of answering it because that's all we're capable of.
Wait, so, wait, the question is a shark in this analogy.
Would you rather the shark jumps over us? I mean, I don't know how that works.
That would be pretty cool.
So if it like free wheely, but instead of like an orca, it's a shark.
Yeah, jumping over us. Free the sharks to do their own tricks. Man, Why are they always the subject of the tricks and never the object?
But is it jumping over us or jumping at us? That's a big difference. Or maybe it's jumping over me. To you, that's an acceptable scenario.
Perhaps, But I'm jumping with a chance to dig into these listener questions.
Oh, I see, I see you trying to jump to start this back on track. Busted because I jump the rail?
Is that?
Are we? Are we pushing it too much now?
But yeah, we do like to ansk our listener questions, and so today we'll be tackling.
Listener questions number sixty two.
That's right. We are very happy to be talking about questions you have here on the podcast. So again, please don't be shy. Write to me. I will answer your questions questions at Danielandhorge dot com. And sometimes I'll hear a question I think Ooh, I bet Whoge has something funny to say about this, or I don't know how they answer this just yet. Maybe I should do some research and then we'll talk about it on the podcast.
Well, the answer is usually no, I don't have anything's funny to say. I try, I try. But you know we're talking about dark matter sharks. I mean, how could you top that?
The jokes just right themselves, don't they they do?
Yeah, but yeah, we're answering listener questions here today, and we have three great questions. We have a question about the double slit experiment and photons. We have a question about what the moon is made out of. It's kind of a cheesy question. And we also have a question here about how particles interact or not interact with things like you and me.
Yeah, super fun questions. Thank you everybody for sending in your questions, and especially these volunteers who are brave enough to send me the audio of themselves asking the questions.
And so our first question comes from Renaldo.
Hi Ho Hi Daniel. I was wondering I never would be reading about the double slit experiment. We eventually read something like you'll get an interference better even if we shoot a single photon. My question is, how the hell do we know there's a single photon if we can take any measurements for obvious reasons.
Thanks for the great podcast.
You guys rock all right, Well, this question is kind of creating an interference pattern in my head.
I'm not quite sure I understand it.
This question is about the double slit experiment and the weird quantum behavior that emerges when you slow it down. So you're sending single particles through it, one at a time, and he's essentially asking like, how can you do that? How can you make a single particle gun? How do you know that you're sending one particle through the experiment at a time.
Interesting?
So I guess we should maybe start by recapping what the double slit experiment is. It's sort of a classic experiment that it's always used in explanations of quantum physics and physics classes to sort of explain the wave slash particle nature of matter right even light.
Hm although originally it was used to demonstrate the wavelike nature of light. Two hundred years ago, before we had any understanding of how light worked, people were debating as light a particles, light a wave, and the prevailing theory at the time was that it was a particle. But then Young did this experiment with two slits. Basically a light at a wall, but you have two little slits in the wall. Each slit then serves as a source of light, and beyond that you have a screen, and he saw an interference pattern in the screen, which is the kind of thing you expect to see if you have two sources of waves. Waves can add up to enhance each other, or they can work in opposite directions to cancel each other out. And that's exactly the kind of interference pattern that Young saw on the screen. So he proved that light has these wave like properties to using his original double slit experiment, which was a bombshell at the time.
Interesting, is this an experiment people can do at home? Like if I take a little piece of cardboard, you know, cut out two slits on it next to each other, and then I shine a flashlight, am I going to see an interference batter?
It's possible to do this experiment at home. It's a little bit touchy because you need very thin slits, and you need those slits to be close together, so it's not just like any two slices and a piece of cardboard are going to give you this behavior. It depends on the wavelength of light and the width of the slits, and the distance between them has to be connected to the wavelength of light. So it's a little bit tricky to get right, but it is possible. I mean, Young did it two hundred years ago. So it's not like you need fancy laser technology or anything.
Meaning if I just put two random slits next to each other, it won't work.
Yeah, you'll probably just get two geometric shadows. To what two geometric shadows like, you know, when you do shadow puppets, you hold up a flashlight, you put your hand in front of it, creates a shadow on the wall, and the shape of the shadow is exactly the same as the shape of your hand. Right, that's the idea. It's a geometric shadow. But if you zoom in on the edges of that, you'll see there really are very small fringe effects. Those are the wave like behaviors of that.
Oh, so you can't see it if.
You really zoom in carefully. Yeah, and then to get an interference pattern, you need like two small slits that exhibit those wave like behaviors at the fringes and then they have to be close together so they can interfere.
Mmm, now do I need like a laser or will it flashlight work?
No, any source of light will work. You don't need a laser. A laser is just like a single coherence source of light of a single frequency. But you don't need that. Any flashlight would work. But then there's the quantum version of it, because Young's version says, Okay, light is like waves, and it's no big deal that waves can interfere. It's cool that light is like waves, but the fact that waves interfere is not a big deal. The quantum version of this experiment says, well, if light is made out of packets, then you could turn that light source down. So the instead of sending like huge numbers of photons so you're getting these waves, you're now sending individual photons through the experiment. And the cool thing is you still see an interference pattern even when there's only one photon in the experiment at once. That's the quantum version of it.
WHOA, Well, Okay, maybe let's take a step back here. So when I go to light through these those slits, I get an interference pattern on the wall. And by interference, I mean like it alternates between light and dark spots on.
The wall exactly, the two sources are interfering. You have dark spots where the two sources are waving in opposite directions by the time they hit the wall, so they cancel out, and bright spots where they're waving in the same direction, so they add up coherently, they make a brighter source. You get these stripes dark and light and darken light on the wall. They give you the interference pattern.
Right, Like, this sort of works with just regular like water waves. Right If I have a like svery still lake, and I put a little plate with two slits on it, and then then I create some waves and the ways it goes through the slits on the other side of the slits, the waves are gonna ripple in, but they won't look like one smooth wave.
It will look like it's this ripple pattern.
Yeah, exactly. Each slit acxit basically a point source of those waves. So you get these two circular waves coming out from each slit, and then those interfere. And you know, waves interfering is also not a new or weird thing. It happens all the time. Sound like you walk around your living room and you hear your TV better or worse. That's because the acoustics of your living room things are canceling out or adding up, or bouncing off of each other or noise. Canceling headphones work this way. They create exactly the sound necessary to interfere with the outside sound to cancel it out. They push and pull in the opposite way so that you hear nothing. So waves interfering is a totally intuitive phenomenon. This is just life doing it. That's the classical version. The quantum version is super cool because now what's interfering. You have a single photon going through the experiment at a time. The quantum version says, that still gives you an interference pattern.
Right, right, And that's a weird thing because like in the water experiment, like water is this medium, right, It's like this a wave is broad. It's acting in many places at the same time, and it's interfering over here, and it's adding the wave over there, and so you expect it to be ripple at the end. But if you're just throwing like a single droplet of water, maybe you wouldn't expect that, right, Like if I shoot like one atom of water, like H two molecule of H two out of two slits, I might expect it to either make it through one of the holes or maybe hit the wall and then nothing will come out the other side exactly.
But photons are not little drops of water. They are quantum objects, and they have a probability to go through one slit or the other slit, and it's the wave function that corresponds to those probability that's doing the interfering. So if the photon is allowed to have both possibilities, it's wavefunction includes it going through both, and that wave function can interfere with itself, and so that's what's doing the interfering. The wave function for the photon is doing the interfering when you have a single photon in the experiment. That's why it's the quantum version, because classical objects can't do that. They're just in one location.
Well, as I understand it, it's the probability that's interfering with itself, right, But at the end, when it hits the wall, it's still going to be like one dot or not a dot, right.
Yeah, to be technically accurate, it's the wave function that's doing interfering, not the probability. Probabilities don't interference the wave function itself. But that's technical detail. The concept is right, the possibility that it's going through the other slid that's doing the interfering, and then when it hits the screen, now it's interacting with the classical object. And so Copenhagen quantum mechanics says, now the universe has to make a choice. Now it has to choose from the various possibilities. And the cool thing is every photon is the same probability distribution to land somewhere on the screen. So you shoot individual photons through one at a time, Each one, even if it has the same initial conditions, can land in a different place on the screen, and you slowly build up the same original interference pattern that you saw when you had a brighter source of light.
Well, maybe let's walk us through this scenario. So I shoot one photon that a double slid and follow along.
With the photon. What happens to the photon?
Well, already we're in philosophical trouble because following along with the photon means like where is the photon? But we can follow along with the wave function, right, the wave function says, the photon could go through slit A or could go through slit B.
Right, it's not determined, but it is the wave function moving or is it propagating from my flashlight?
The wave function is not necessarily a physical thing, right, It describes possibilities. It's in a sort of abstract space of possible outcomes. But it describes the photon and what the photon might be doing as it moves through the universe. It just it allows for multiple possibilities at once. So you have like the physical space of the photon and then the possibility space that the wave function exists in.
So then what happens to the photon wavefunction when it hits the double slits.
So the wave function for the photon says, when you hit the double slit, you could either have gone through slit one or slit two. And the wave function then acts as a source on either side of those slits and then does the interference the same way we just talked about for light interfering with itself or water waves interfering with themselves. Wave functions follow wave mechanics and so they can interfere in the same way. So you have these sort of like sources of possibility, if you like, from each slit, and those possibilities are interfering at the screen.
Is it sort of like the photon is going through both slits at the same time, Like it's both left and right, sort of like the short Anger's cat, Like it's going through both slits and it's coming out the other side of the both slits, like if the cat was dead or alive.
Very loosely speaking, it's sort of like that. But in reality, although you hear in popular science all the time quantum particles can be in two places at once, that's not technically accurate. The more correct way to say it would be that they have the possibility to be in two places at once, and those possibilities can interfere. It's not like the photon is coming out of both slits. It's that it has the possibility to come out of both slits, and in quantum mechanics, those possibilities can interfere with each other before the universe even decides which one is true, or if it ever decides.
When it comes out to the other side. There's the two sources of ways of possibility, and then both ways interfere.
And then the result hits the wall.
Yeah, right, Like, if I should juice one photon at this those slid some of them are going to hit the walls of the slid, right, Like, some of them are going to be totally blocked. Yeah, some of them are not going to make it through, right.
Yeah, we're only talking about the ones that make it through, right, right.
So then the ones that do make it through, I'm not going to see a wave in the wall. I'm going to see like a little thought right where the photon hit. Yes, so just a single photon doesn't create a ripple, right, single photon juice ends up on the wall.
Single photon ends up on the wall. Where on the wall does it end up? Well, that's determined by the wave function, And the wave function has various possibilities for where that photon can end up, and those possibilities have interfered with themselves. You have an interference pattern of possibilities. Now, when the universe says where does this one photon end up? It draws from the various possibilities, and there's a greater chance that ends up in the bright regions and a much lower, maybe zero chance that ends up in the dark regions. Every photon is a new roll of the die and ends up in a different spot, even if the initial conditions are the same. But then over time it builds up the interference pattern because each photon follows that possibility interference pattern.
Right Like, I shoot one photon, it goes through, it hits the wall in a certain spot. I shoot another photon, it hits it in another spot. Shoot another photon, it hits it in another spot. It sort of seems random, But if I shoot like a bazillion photons, then they're going to make a pattern on the wall because they all have sort of the same possibility wave pattern exactly.
So quantum mechanics is deterministic about the probability function on the wall, it's not deterministic about an individual photon. Each one is drawn randomly from that distribution. It's the laws of physics. Instead of saying I'm going to tell you exactly where a photon goes, now they're saying, I'm going to tell you what the probability distribution is. Each individual photon is drawn from that probability distribution, and if you shoot enough photons, you're going to figure out what that distribution is. And that's the interference pattern on the screen.
Right, And I think it's because basically, when you're shooting the photon, there's sort of an inherent uncertainty. When I'm shooting the photon, like I might think I know where the tip of my laser gun is, but actually when the photons come out, they have a certain fuzziness to them, right, they had they have a certain uncertainty or probability about where they actually are. So if there wasn't a double slit barrier, that probability would just kind of spread out and hit the wall in an even way, just a little like a fuzzy cloud of thoughts. But because I have the double slid, it sort of messes with that probability wave.
Exactly. In order to have the setup work, you need to create a beam of photons which have the possibility to go through Slit A or slit B. If your beam of photons was like already super duper precise, and you aimed it at slit A with no chance of them going through Slit B, then you wouldn't get the interference path. Fuzzy enough beams so that an individual photon has the possibility to go through A or B. Right, Right, but maybe we should get to Ronaldo's question.
Yeah.
I was about to do that, but fir the thime, we should talk about what his question is. I don't quite understand it. Is he talking about how do you measure a photon? What is he talking about?
Well, I think he's saying, how do you know a single photon is going through the experiment, Because in order to create this interference pattern, you need to not measure the photon, Like, if you try to measure the photon whether it went through slit A or B, you collapse the way function and destroy the interference pattern. So you need to have single photons go through the experiment, but not touch them. So basically he's asking like, number one, technically, how do you make a single photon anyway? And number two, how do you know that you did?
You mean, like, how do you detect it in the wall?
Yeah, Like, how do you tell the difference between one photon and two photons? R? How do you know you didn't have two photons in the experiment at the same time?
Uh, couldn't you shoot one at a time?
Yeah?
I think he's asking how do you do that?
Oh? Okay, how do you shoot a photon at a time.
So it turns out to be quite tricky, right. Like number one thing you could do is like take your laser or your light source and just turn it down, right, so it's like rarely miss photons. If a beam of light is just like a huge number of photons, just turn it down and eventually it'll break up into little blips. Right. That's tricky though, because you can't really guarantee that you have single photons. You might still get two photons. Is a randomness to that process. If what you want is like really absolute guarantee, and that's what these quantum dudes are doing. They want absolute guarantees that there are single photons in their experiments because they don't want philosophical loopholes, right, And so that turns out to be much more challenging. But we do have technology to do this. Now. What you can do is take a crystal which has a special property that it takes in a photon and it breaks it into two photons of half the energy. So you can use one photon to know that the other photon was there without touching it. So you take a beam of photons, you hit this special crystal and it'll shoot out two photons in different directions, and you can detect the second one be like, Okay, I can tell that there was a photon there. I know when the photon is coming, and that tells me that there was a photon going in the other direction as well.
Split it into two. But I guess the question is, why do you have to do that? Like, couldn't you just put a camera on the other side and whenever the camera the texts a photon, it's like, oh, there was one photon.
Yeah, But if you do that, then you've spoiled it, right, You can no longer send that photon into your experiment if you've detected it.
Now you put it at the end on the other side of the slits.
You mean just the screen, Yeah, just the screen, Isn't that what he's asking?
Yeah? But how do you know there was just one photon? Right?
Because you only detected one. You only saw it on your camera. Right. We have cameras that can detect single photons, right.
We have cameras that are sensitives to single photons, But we only know that they're sensitives to single photons because we have confirmed beams of single photons using this crystal trick. Otherwise you don't know if you're seeing a single photon or if you're seeing two photons right on top of each other.
Oh, you're talking about the scenario where they're on top of each other. That's the scenario we're trying to avoid.
Yeah, we're trying to make sure we're really seeing an individual photon.
Oh and not like two.
Yeah, exactly, because it's only if you have a single photon in the experiment that the quantum version is weird. Althoughwise it's like, yeah, you had a bunch of photons, two photons interfered with each other, what's the big deal. We want to see a single photon and an interference pattern because that proves that there's a quantum effect there that shows us the wave function is doing some weird physical interference thing.
So then the idea is that you send one, but you split into two, and so you catch one, so you know that you there's one and then but doesn't that create sort of like entanglement problems.
Yes, the two are entangled, but not in a way that's going to spoil the quantum state of the other one. For the experiment that you want to do, Like they're entangled and that their energy has to add up to the original photon, but that's not a problem.
All right, So then that's how you can tell that it was a single photon.
Mm hmmm. Is that then Rinaldo's azer?
Yeah, I think so, And I think the other interesting answer to Ronaldo is that it's harder to do with photons for these reasons. And people actually did it with electrons, single electrons before they did it with single photons, so single photons sort of came after single electrons.
Well, you can do with anything, write any quantum particle, Yeah, exactly, Petrino's shark shark particles. Right, but then would that make it the double shark jumping experiment.
The jump shark experiment jumps the shark itself.
He squeezed the shark. All right, well, great question, Ronaldo, Thank you so much. Hopefully that answers your question. The idea is that scientists are coming out with the clever experiments, and so you can say that it which is one with greater confidence.
Yeah, these are great questions. Thank you very much for asking them, and I encourage everybody out there to send us your questions to questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com.
All Right, we have two more awesome questions. One of them is about what the moon is made out of, and the other one is about how particles interact or not interact with all of us. So stay tuned for that. But first let's take a quick break.
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We're answering listener questions, and our next question comes from Bruce from Saskatchewan, Canada.
Daniel and Jorgey, you guys are awesome. I've got an idea about valuable elements. If the Moon has been littered with meteorites and asteroids, then would it not be an excellent source of valuable elements? Platinum seems connected to molten material, gold seems to connected to supernova asteroids and meteoroids. Nicol seems connected to materials, meteorites and the Earth's core. One thing I know is you will wonderfully set me straight. Thank you very much for everything you guys do.
All right, awesome questions. Basically, I think Bruce wants to know if he should go to the Moon to do some gold penning.
I think Bruce is asking us to invest in his moon mining company.
Yeah, there you go. It's called my Moon, Oh Moon of mine, we moon.
But yeah, interesting question, like what is the Moon made out of and does it have maybe some of the valuable materials or metals that we're sort of running out of here on Earth or that we find really precious here on Earth, because you know, it wasn't the Moon sort of made at the same time as the Earth or came from the same rock.
Yeah, I think this is an interesting twist online asteroid mining. The idea there is that there are heavy metals like gold and platinum and whatever, and everything in the Solar System was made out of the same basic stuff. So the Earth has a lot of gold and platinum in it. The Moon must have some asteroids have some. But when you have a big body like the Earth or even the Moon as this molten phase, and then things differentiate and a lot of the heavy valuable metals on Earth have sunk down deep into the Earth, so they're not like sitting around on the surface. But asteroids, we think have a lot of gold and platinum in them. And he's basically asking, what about those asteroids that have hit the surface of the Moon. Aren't they basically just like big blobs of heavy valuable metals sitting on the Moon? Should we go up there and get it?
Oh? Interesting?
So, like I think you're saying that the Earth because it was a big ball of lava at some point, maybe the precious metals that we like so much today sunk to the center of the Earth, and so that's why it's so rare to find gold on the surface.
So what you're saying, that's one reason. The other is that like gold and some of these other metals really like iron, and so they tend to mix with iron and form weird alloys, and then they sink as the iron sinks. As a heavier stuff tends to sink, especially if it's iron loving.
But maybe an asteroid or a small body like the Moon which didn't have as much gravity, maybe those metals are closer to the surface.
Yeah, I don't think he's interested in the gold that is part of the Moon. I think he's interested in this stuff on the surface. And because asteroids are hitting the surface of the Moon all the time, just like they're hitting the Earth's atmosphere most of the time. When they hit the Earth's atmosphere, they melt or they explode or they turn into a fireball. But that doesn't happen on the Moon. And the Moon they just land on the surface. They make a crater, but they're still sitting there. And so in principle, if you wanted to mine asteroids, you could do it without going to the asteroid belt. You could just go to the surface of the Moon and pick them up.
But wouldn't that be the same as Earth, Like, don't we get asteroids hitting us all the time?
Too?
We do get started hitting us all the time. The bigger ones survive and actually, like early human civilization used it as a source of heavy metals, Like a lot of the swords and daggers in the very early times in human civilization were made from like star metals. It's pretty awesome. We have these daggers that we can come from like meteorites. Before humans figured out like how to do mining, right, there was the main source of heavy metals on the surface of the Earth.
Right, and that's how they got vibranium, right in Wakanda that that happened, right, jump the sharkium also, that's right, we're jumping the panther. But I think the idea is that maybe like asteroids are richer in these metals, perhaps because they haven't been a big ball of lava with a lot of gravity where they sank out of reach, Like maybe these asteroids have a higher concentration of these metals, right, Yes, exactly, they're being caught by the Moon and stain on the surface of the Moon.
Could we go pick them up?
Yes, I think that's exactly the question. And it's again correlated to the question of like should go mine asteroids, And that seems like maybe harder because asteroids are further away than the Moon, and you know, the Moon at least has some gravity et cetera, et cetera, And so he's wondering, like we can go to the moon, shouldn't we just go there and pick these up.
Well, obviously you need a metal detector.
You go mooncombing, you do need a metal detector. The answer is that it is possible, but it's probably not worth the money. It probably would cost you more to go and get those metals than you would get for selling them back here on Earth.
Oh, I see, because it costs so much to go to space.
It does cost so much to go to space. It'd be really complicated. Also, you know, there's like a lot of difficult issues engineering wise to establishing any sort of infrastructure on the Moon. You know, there's a lot of radiation. The temperature variations on the surface of the Moon are crazy. They get really hot, then it gets really cold, this lower gravity, which turns out to be like really hard to do work in if it's low gravity. And so just like establishing any sort of industry on the surface of the Moon is difficult. And then there's the cost of like bringing it back. You know, you're going to launch from the surface of the Moon and bring stuff back to Earth. It's expensive, But.
That should be easier, shouldn't it because the gravity and the Moon isn't that high. Yeah, probably, just could you like toss it over to the Earth.
To burn up in the Earth's atmosphere and waste all of.
You, and to catch it right before it hits Earth.
Maybe Yeah, that doesn't sound dangerous at all. We're just like dropping heavy rocks into the gravity well of Earth. Oops.
Sorry that yeah, Well, I mean if you missed, then it'll get burned in the atmosphere. But if you right, like you're not going to send like a Manhattan sized ball of gold, but you can, I don't know, send like car sized balls and if you miss they'll just burn out.
Nope, I'm not counting on the restraint of Bruce and his investors to not go after the Manhattan sized blob of gold. But I read an analysis of this because people thought a lot about this, and they thought about asteroid mining whatever, And one quote I read said, if there were gold bars on the Moon, the best thing you could do economically is to leave them there, Like it would cost you more. Even if they were like perfect gold bars, just sitting on the surface of the Moon, it would cost you more to go and get them than you would be able to sell them for.
Well, it costs more given today's market, yes, and technology, Like right, now, the cost of gold is not enough to overcome the cost of it. But maybe maybe it'll get cheaper to go to space in the future.
Maybe it will. And if we had like a space elevator and an established infrastructure on the Moon, then maybe this would be a cool thing to do.
Wait.
Wait, you're against throwing gold bars to Earth, but you're pro building a giant elevator that might fall down.
I'm not pro. I'm just saying it would make Bruce's company more realistic. I'm not an investor in Bruce's company. Oh no, I have no legal obligations.
Here, but you know what I mean. Or maybe, like gold is not worth enough now, but maybe in the future. Yeah, you know, when we start to run out here on Earth, maybe it will become super available.
It certainly could be. Yeah, maybe Bruce has a very long term business plan.
Yeah yeah.
Or you know, there's already people going to the moon, right, we were sending things. Why not pick up a few gold bars while you're there.
It's heavy and that's complicated to pick that stuff up.
Right, right, But it's shiny, shiny and pretty.
Anyway, it's there, and if you can figure out the economics of it, more power to you. I would not invest in Bruce's company today, but you're right it might one day make a profit.
Mm now, but can we see these asteroids from Earth? Like you know, when we look at the Moon, it just looks like why dost Basically you don't see like flex of gold, do you or do you?
No, you don't, but you do see craters, and you know, what's at the center of every crater has to be some sort of impact, and if you go to the center of the crater, you can often find a meteorite sitting there. The same thing is true here on Earth, like meteor Crater in Arizona. They went to the center of it, they found like chunks of the meteor, like pieces of that metallic object. So certainly possible to find them if you know where the craters are. And on the Moon, the craters are easy to spot. You can see them with a telescope and definitely if you're on the surface you can find them.
But you have to go and dig around. Yeah, you might have to use like a metal detector.
They're probably covered in a little bit of regolith from the impact.
Yeah, right, right right.
I wonder if you can see him like if you look at the you know, spectral wave reflection on the Moon.
Yeah, and in fact, they have done some of these experiments. There was a satellite called l CROSS, the Lunar Crater Observation and Sensing satellite that confirmed presence of gold on the Moon's surface using exactly that kind of technique, you know, like bouncing light off of it and seeing how it reflects and the spectrum of it.
WHOA, Okay, what if Bruce goes to the Moon, he digs up these asteroids and he finds that they're made out of a new metal, and he names him cheesium.
Then he's complete.
Did the circle, He's jumped the short probably all right, Well, I think that answers Bruce's question, which is that, yes, the Moon would be an excellent source of valuable elements like gold, platinum, but right now it's too expense.
It is good to go get them.
Yeah, I think that's true.
But maybe in the future Space Driver will become cheaper, so stay tuned for that. All right, Let's get to our last question, and this one is about how particles interact, So we'll tackle that one, but first let's take another quick break.
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Right.
We're aswering listening to questions here today, and our last question of the day comes from Rebecca.
I have a question, and it's about how particles interact, because you often talk about whether particles have interactions with other particles, and then some particles either don't talk very weakly interact, so muons can go straight through the planet and neutrino's pretty much the same. But when you say that, what does it actually mean when you say interaction? Are you saying that they go into a field and then have vibrating qualities within a field, or for example, an electron that's affected by a gravitational field, does it go into the gravitational field and do something or is it repelled by a gravitational field or similarly, a photon. How do they actually interact at the quantum level with the different fields. So how does a photon behave in an electrical field?
Or how does a.
Electron behave in a gravitational field?
I really appreciate an explanation. Oh boy, I can tell you're salivating for this answer, Daniel. It's all about.
Particles, particle physics, particle interactions.
What does it mean to interact? Oh boy, let's strap in.
Yeah. Well, I was wondering where you think we should go with this question because there's a lot of stuff in here, and I'm wondering if you've got a sense for like, what do you think she's really asking?
All right, well, I think Rebecca is picturing this scenario where you know, we've often talked about Natrina's flying through the Earth and going through us, going through our thumbs, but not interacting with us. We know that sometimes they do interact. It sounds like she's asking, like what exactly is happening when they interact? Like do the quantum fields somehow interfere or something triggers an interaction?
Yeah?
Okay, so that's a cool question. And you know, the short answer is that these things are quantum mechanical, which means that everything is a probability. So neutrino, for examples, passing through the Earth, and that means that there's a little ripple in the neutrino field. That's when a neutrino is, it's a little ripple in the neutrino field, and it's passing through the earth. And the Earth is made out of quarks and electrons, which are little ripples and cork and electron fields whatever. So you have these fields that are all actually on top of each other, and there's a ripple passing through one, and there's ripples in the other ones, and those ripples have possibilities probabilities of interacting. So every time a neutrino passes a quark, for example, there's a possibility that it interacts, and the universe rolls a die, and the dye is like ten to the fifty sides on it, and only one of those sides says yes, the neutrino interacts, and the other one say nope, it ignores it. So every time a neutrino is passing by a cork, the universe rolls this die and it says nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, And then very occasionally it rolls the die and it says, yes, then that neutrino interacts with that quark.
Is it related to like how close those two particles fly next to each other?
You know?
I mean, like let's forget the whole planet and let's just put like a one electron in the center of the Earth, and then it's shoot one neutrino at it, like if we know it's definitely not going to interact, if it's really far away from it, or can it? Are you saying that it can't?
It can? The probability depends on a lot of things, and one of them is distance, you know, the old like one over distance squared rule that comes out of these possibilities to interact, And so the further away you are, the smaller the probability to interact. It also depends on other things, like how much momentum is it exchanged, and the interaction, like higher momentum exchange, like a bigger bounce back, is less probable than like a slight interaction where they like barely brush each other. So there's a whole spectrum of things there, and all of them affect the probability.
Wait, what do you mean a bounce back? What did you mean by that?
Well, imagine two scenarios. Like one is, neutrino flies by an electron and its direction is only slightly changed. It's basically going the same direction it was before. It's just like dinged a little to the left, versus the neutrino hits a wall and comes back in the exact opposite direction. Like it bounces back, it changes its momentum completely.
Well, I feel like we're jumping ahead a little bit. So you're saying one possible interaction between these two things is that they exchange momentum like they bump into each other, as if there were a little bigger balls.
Yeah, exchanging momentum is the interaction. That's what an interaction is. Is that energy is going from one field to the other. If the neutrino interacts with the electron, its momentum has to change. That's what the interaction really is, is a exchange of momentum between the two things. Just like when two billion balls bounce off each other. What are they doing? They're exchanging momentum, right.
But don't some of them kind of like transform into other things?
Right?
Can't like two particles combined to make other particles? Isn't that also one way they can interact.
Yes, absolutely, the neutrino and the electron could interact to create like a w boson right, so both of them could disappear. Absolutely. So that's all sorts of different possible outcomes, and the universe picks from among those, and some of those are more likely than others.
Oh okay, So then by interaction you mean several things. They could bump and change each other's momentum, or they can combine and create other particles. And you're saying this interaction depends on the distance, and what.
Else depends on the distance also depends on how much momentum is being exchanged. A greater momentum exchange is less probable, like you're more likely to have a glancing interaction than like a bounce back interaction.
Wait wait, wait, wait, what what do you mean?
The faster my neutrino's going, the higher the probability it will What.
I wasn't referring to the speed of the neutrino. I'm talking about the amount of momentum exchanged. So the greater the difference between the initial and final neutrino momentum, the less the probability. So the more you want to change the neutrino's angle, for example, the less likely that's going to happen. You're more likely to have a glancing interaction than like a bounce back interaction.
Meaning like it's harder for the nutrina to hit the electron head on than it is for it to miss a little bit.
The classical picture in your head of particles is like tiny little balls. That's why you sometimes bounce back, and that's why you sometimes don't, because it bounce back is like when you hit it head on and it comes right back. These are quantum particles, so there's no like hitting anything head on. There's just probabilities of various outcomes, and the bouncing back is less.
Likely because it's harder to hit it head on, or it's harder for the center of the probability curve of one to be aligned with the center of the probability of the other one.
Right, yeah, sure, I mean that's what quantum mechanics tells us. It tells us the various probabilities of things happening. And the cool thing is that as you zoom out and make these things bigger and bigger, it starts to align more with our classical intuition, our naive sense of these things as objects that are touching and pushing on each other in the same way. Really, these are quantum interactions, and various things have various probabilities. Like it's possible for the neutrino to hit the electron head on and just go right through it and not interact. In fact, that's the.
Most likely thing, you mean, even though it's the most likely thing. Like if I shoot the nautino head on to the electron, you probably would say that most likely it's going to get it head on and bounce back, but it could not happen.
The most likely thing for it to do is to just go right through the electron, even if it's right exactly the same location. The neutrino can be right on top of it. Yeah.
Yeah, what I mean is like, out of the things that could happen if something happens, even even if you align it perfectly and shoot it to head on, and the most likely thing if something were to happen was for it to bounce back, not bounce back.
Yeah, it may not bounce back at all.
Because the probability depends on other things, not just how close you are.
Yeah, not just how close you are, And it also does depend on the initial velocity of the neutrino and all sorts of things that go into the quantum mechanical calculation. To the point is you get various probabilities of things happening. It depends on lots of different factors.
Well, maybe this is kind of what Rebecca is asking. It's like, what exactly is going on? What are some of these other factors that might cause these two things to ignore each other.
I think the major ones are the distance between them, right, and the initial momentum of both of the particles. Really high speed particles are affected by special relativity, which sort of changes their experience. As they fly through space. They see space as contracted, as squeezed in front of them. Everything is shortened. So you take like a wall that's a meter thick, and now it's much much shorter, but it's more dense, and so that changes your probability to interact with the atoms inside it, for example.
And so makes it harder and it gives you a.
Higher probability of interacting with them. Actually, oh, higher probability because now you have more of them. Yeah, because it's denser, so you have more of them.
But like, let's say we're still talking about one by one electron and I'm shooting a nutrina at it, is it more likely for them to interact if I shoot my neutrino is super super fast or if it's cruising by slowly.
Low energy particles in general are going to be more likely to interact qualitative that you can imagine, like they have they spend more time in each other's vicinity, so they're closer for longer period, so they get to like roll the die more times. There's one way to think about it.
I see.
So basically, like if you want the neutrina to hit the electron, you just got to hit it dead on and throw it slowly. So it's the same as like throwing a bait a baseball. The slowr you throw it, the easier it is to hit the center of the glove.
Yeah, that's true. So that's what you want to do if you want the electron and thentrino to interact, Throw it slowly right at each other.
Right, But even if you hit it dead on at a slow speed, there's still a probability that they'll ignore each other.
Right, Yeah, that's the most likely thing By far Neutrino's almost always ignore or everything, including electrons.
And what I guess why is that? Is it because the two quantum fields don't like each other or they're not likely to interact with each other. I mean, it sounds like it's a slam dunk if you're hitting it straight on. Why wouldn't they interact?
Well, some fields just don't interact with other fields, and some fields interact very strongly, and some fields interact very weakly. And this is just like a number. You know, you're calculating the probabilities, and you have all these factors momentum and angle and distance whatever. Then there's also just a number you multiply these calculations by, and it's different for different pairs of fields. And in this case, it's the weak interaction. And we know that weak interaction just has a small number in front of it. Why is that number week We don't really know. You know, the strong force is a bigger number electromachanism as a number close to one over one hundred. The weak force has a much smaller number. Gravities even weaker if you think about it in a quantum scale. We don't know why these numbers are stronger or weaker for various forces.
I see.
So you're saying the weak week force is weak and the strong force is strong.
Yes, and that's the description of what we've observed, right. We also do know that these numbers change with energy. Actually, as the universe gets hotter and denser and everything is flying around higher speeds, these numbers in front of the fields do.
Change, so they become more likely to interact.
They do become more likely as the temperature of the universe increases. So we think in the early universe these probabilities were different, and the universe is now cooled and crystallized, and the weak force ended up being quite weak. That we think in the early history of the universe the weak force might have been as strong as electromagnetism.
WHOA, it's just an inherent something about it just makes it more reactive.
Yeah, it's called spontaneous symmetry breaking. We think that the universe sort of like cracked in this way when it was cooling and made the weak force weak, and then electromagnetism less weak. We think in the early universe there were really just one symmetric, beautiful bundle that was all the same and it cracked into these two halves that are very different now.
And then track the shark. Obviously, I mean it cracked the cork. But I guess maybe I wonder now if Rebecca's question is Okay, let's say I shoot a nutrina an electron, I hit it, did on and I rolled it die, and the universe says, all right, let these two particles interact.
What's happening?
Then, yeah, that's a great question. And in our current understanding, these things are fundamental, so we have no insight into like what's going on inside them. Maybe something is happening, they're exchanging little internal particles, or something is changing inside their state. We don't know. Our current picture of them is that we can't see inside of them, so we don't really know. All we know is that we canbscribe that it's happening, and it's like one unit of understanding. We don't know how to crack it open. To us, it's essentially instantaneous because we don't have any insight into the internal working as them an electron or a neutrino.
Oh, I see, like you don't have an idea of like, all right, you can play this out in slow motion?
Is what you're saying, yeah.
For example, it used to be that we understood how neutrinos decay the same way neutrinos turned into a proton and electron neutrino. How did that happen? We didn't know there were all point particles to us. Now we can see inside the proton, we can see what happens. We can see that, oh, it's this quark turning into that, and that's why you get a neutron, and we can understand the details inside of it. But we can't tell that for the inside of an electron or neutrino. So maybe it's instantaneous and we're looking at fundamental interactions of the universe, or maybe there's something happening inside of it we just can't see yet that could happen in slow motion. So maybe it's just like one time step of the universe, or maybe it's multiple ones. We can't tell the difference.
Because it's happening so fast, or maybe because it is it's instantaneous.
Both. Maybe it's so fast, maybe it's instantaneous we can't tell the difference yet, or we can't resolve those two differences. We don't have the technology to see those things we can't look inside the electron for example.
Well, I wonder if, like some interactions, the two things sort of combine into pure energy in a way, and then outcomes other particles. Maybe you may imagine these ripples kind of mixing together, becoming this blob, and then it ripples out.
Into other things.
Maybe is that how maybe you, as a particle physicists, think about it or see it.
I see it as like energy transforming from one field to another. So, for example, you have an electron and a positron. They annihilate to make a photon. Right, that's like just energy, there's no matter anymore. The way I think about that is two ripples in the electron field, one the electron, the other a positron, which is just like a different kind of ripple in the electron field, come together, and then that energy slides over into another field. Right, The energy is gone from the electron field. It's slipped over into the photon field, the electromagnetic field. So those fields have coupled, They've transferred energy from one to the other, and so now the electron field is quiet and the electromagnetic field. The photon field is rippling because it has the particle in it. So I imagine all these fields sort of on top of each other, and energy is sliding back back and forth from one to another.
Well, that's when they transformed to each other. But what about like when they just bounce off each other.
Yeah, that's exchanging momentum. So then you have like ripples that are approaching each other, and then they can go off in other directions. Right, They're still communicating by exchanging momentum or exchanging energy.
Like a little bit of my horizontal energy, I give that to the other particle, and then that particle that moves a little bit in the horizontal direction.
Yeah, exactly.
All right, Well then I think that is Rebecca's answer, which is Daniel has no idea.
Nobody has any idea.
We have a current picture which we can use to do calculations which are extraordinarily accurate, but we don't understand the internals of it yet. We don't know if we're at the end of the story or just step five out of ten thousand. Future experiments we hope will reveal the answers.
Oh, Like, to us, it looks like they just bounce of each other. But maybe when you zoom in and you know, look at it in super high speed motion. Maybe there's a little like sharks jumping from one particle to the other.
Yeah, and if you give me one hundred billion dollars to build a shark collider, I can prove it.
There you go.
Maybe I can get Bruce's new Moon mining company to fund a big collider.
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All right?
Well, thanks to everyone who sent in their questions. So it's fun to see what people are curious about and to try to tackle these interesting mysteries of the universe.
Thanks very much everybody who sends in your questions, and thanks everybody else out there for your curiosity. Eight powers our and our podcast.
And are jumping. We hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.
For more science and curiosity. Come find us on social media, where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discorg, Insta, and now TikTok. Thanks for listening and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. House US dairy tackling greenhouse gases, Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. Visit you as dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more.
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