Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseDaniel and Jorge talk about why its so expensive to build a super collider and how plasma technology might make it all better, faster, cheaper.
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Hey Daniel, how much did the Last Particle Accelerator cost?
The LHC had a price tag of about ten billion dollars.
Oh, is that it? And how much will the next one cost?
Something like fifty to one hundred billion, depending on the design.
Fifty to one hundred you can narrow it down a little bit. It's a fifty billion dollar difference there.
We'd be happy with fifty billion, thank you very much.
I guess who's going to pay for it?
We were going to send a request to the cartoonists of the world.
You want cartoonists to pay for physics? It should be the other way around. I feel like I guess we are constantly violating the laws of physics and cartoons, So why would you pay us?
You guys are just rolling in it, aren't.
You rolling in? Some But maybe you should scale down your ambitions. It's not as expensive.
Well, you know, we want to solve the deepest mysteries of the universe. How do you scale down those ambitions?
Isn't that kind of your job? Scaling things, putting things into perspective, shrinking down things to the quantum level.
And I want to scale our ten billion dollar budget to one hundred billion.
Dollars in quantum coins or what in bitcoins or cubitcoins.
There's definitely a lot of uncertainty in whether we'll ever get that money.
It's both the scam and a legit kind of currency. I am Jorge mack Curtinnis and the creator of PhD comics. Hi.
I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine, and I want all the science projects to get more money.
Really all of them. I'm sure there are some science projects you're like, I don't know if we should do that.
As long as they qualify science, probably so I think we should invest in them. You know, the big government funding agencies, they get inundated in proposals every year, and a lot of them are really good ideas that they have to say no to because they don't have enough money.
Yeah, that is pretty sad. There should be more money for science, right. Science is usually good, usually right, and your aunts are pretty good at doing something good.
Yeah, it doesn't matter if you're studying the mating patterns of ducks or the formation of the Earth or what's inside black hole. You are feeding the curiosity of humanity, and history shows us that that is a good investment. So sometimes people pitch scientists against other sciences, saying like who should get this money, but I think we should all get the money, even the cartoonists. The science of cartoons.
I guess that's a different agency in the government. But anyways, welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio in which.
We use science to try to push back the boundaries of human ignorance. We are amazed at this incredible and wonderful and beautiful universe that we ourselves in, but we want to do more than just appreciate it. We want to understand it. We want to decode its mysteries and explain all of them to you.
That's right. It is a pretty amazing universe. And if you invest an hour of your time here with us today, we hopefully will give you returns in terms of you understanding how things work and appreciating this amazing and beautiful cosmos that we live in.
That's right. Although you're welcome to invest more than just an hour of your time. Send us some cash, no problem.
Do you take bitcoins or cube bitcoins?
Hey, I'll take any donations from my science absolutely. Make out a check.
May it just too expressive, Daniel, have you thought of maybe if you reduce your prices, people will invest more in it.
I would love to make science cheaper. You know, something that limits our understanding the universe is really just how much money we spend on it. It's like we're in the science candy store and we just have pennies in our pockets. But if we could figure out a way to make it all cheaper, then wow, we could just buy more secrets of the universe. What a day that would be.
Yeah, that sounds Awesomeough, they say it all starts with the individuals, Daniels. So you know, should we tell your university to cut your salary in.
Half so I should do half as much physics?
Well, you know you could do twice as much for half the price.
Yeah, then I'll eat half as much, right, Sorry, kids, you're not eating today.
It's a Tuesday, and it's for science, so you could do it too for Yeah, you could do a hunger experiment and also make sense to prefer you know, the mating patterns of certain animals in certain places.
Sounds like we could learn a lot, but learn.
We do aim to do here on the podcast. And so there's the rest of humanity in terms of understanding the universe from the immense galaxies out there floating in space, to the tiny little particles that make up your body and everything that you touch on an everyday basis.
That's right, and we have a few ways of understanding the universe. One thing we can do is just look out into the universe and find interesting stuff that's happening and try to learn from it. That's what astro physicis toime to do, because as much as they want to shoot black holes at each other, they don't have a black hole collider, so they have to wait for nature to set that up and do it for them. The other approach, of course, is to try to create the conditions we want to study here on Earth, to set up the experiments that might force the universe to reveal one of its secrets to us.
Yeah, and one of those strategies is to basically smash things together, is to collide tiny little particles and kind of see how you can break them. I guess that's kind of what you're trying to do, right, is you're trying to break little particles.
Yeah, we are trying to break little particles. Essentially, we are trying to create new conditions that reveal the laws of physics. You know, we have a lot of experience with sort of slow moving cold stuff like baseballs flying through the air or things swimming through the ocean. Things aren't moving very very fast, they don't have a whole lot of energy. So we think we understand that kind of physics. But we want to understand the physics of the whole universe. We want to understand what happens when you push things really really far, when you get really really small. And in order to do that, we have to create those conditions. So we smash tiny particles together to make these really dense little blobs of energy that we hope reveal what the sort of underlying truth of the universe is.
I guess, yeah, you're not really trying to break particles, You're trying to kind of smush them together and then see what the universe does with that smushed energy.
Yeah, when particles get really close together, they interact, and that interaction can create new kinds of particles. One of the most amazing things about particle collisions is that it's not like chemistry. When you're doing chemistry, you combine like H two and O two to make water. All the bits that went in just get rearranged. Right, Every hydrogen nucleus that was there is still there. Every oxygen atom that was there is still there. But when we do particle collisions, that's not what happens. What comes out of the collisions is not just like a rearrangement of the bits that went in like some big Lego project. Those particles that go into the collisions, they get literally annihilated and turned into new kinds of matter. So we're not doing chemistry. We're doing in alchemy.
Although that's kind of what you think is happening, right, Like, you're not quite sure. Maybe inside of those little tiny particles are tiny little strings that do get kind of rearranged like legos. Isn't that a possibility?
Absolutely, that's right. There are many layers to our picture of the universe. Currently, we think about the particles that are interacting, those quarks and the electrons as if they are fundamental objects. But it certainly might be that they are emergent, that they are combinations of even smaller things, And so then what it means to annihilate that particle is in fact to break it into its smaller components, which then can rearrange themselves. But if we can do that. Then we hope to smash those components together and maybe annihilate them, and eventually we think when you get down to the universe and its most basic building block, which you're really doing is annihilation of fundamental objects.
So you're an annihilist at heart, you're an annihilist physicist.
I am an annihilist, absolutely.
Yeah, you subscribe to annihilism.
Hey, at least it's an ethos, right, you.
Should come up with your own kind of a punk rock music for them. But smashing these things together, I guess it's one thing that you can learn how things work, because I guess when things are that small, you can't just take a pair of tweezers and pry them open, right, Like, That's kind of the only way you can really see what's inside of some of these fundamental particles.
Yeah, and you really put your finger there on what we're trying to do. We're trying to see inside these particles. I mean, from one perspective, you could say you're annihilating them. From another perspective, you could say you're tearing them open. You're destroying the arrangement of whatever the smaller bits are. That is the electron or the quark and the end, what we're trying to do is pull them apart, and fundamentally, it's not that different from using tweezers. What do tweezers do. They apply a lot of force in one's very specific energy in order to break some bonds, and that's exactly what we're trying to do with these particles. We smash one proton against the other one, hoping that the high energy that the proton has will smash open the other proton, revealing what's inside of it, and maybe even the quark smashing together will reveal what's inside of them.
Well, smashing you have been doing at the Large Hadron Collider where you were right now you have sort of an appointment.
There, that's right. My main research program when I'm not gooving off doing podcasts or other projects, is annihilating protons at the Large Hadron Collider. I'm a member the Atlas Experiment, which has built a huge electronic device which wraps around the point of collisions to take pictures of all the particles that fly out and try to learn things about what happened in all of those collisions.
Yeah, and the whole point of the accelerator is to basically accelerate particles. You're speeding up the particles from stany still to almost at the speed of light, or at least at a very high velocity, and then you smash them together to get higher and higher energies. But I guess maybe the problem is that the LAC is kind of showing its age now a little bit.
Yeah, that's right. The LEDC is big, and it's powerful, and it was expensive, but it's also limited in its ability. The way we talk about these accelerators is basically by quoting their top speed the most energy that we can put into the particles that we're smashing together. The reason that that's the most interesting number, the one that really tells us like the discovery potential of this device is because it limits the kind of things that it can create. Like, you take those two particles, you smash them together, what else can you make? Well, you might be able to have two other electrons come out, or two other quarks or something else we already know about. But if you have enough energy, you might be able to build something new, something we haven't seen before, because it requires more energy density than typically exists in the universe. So the more energy you have in your collider, the more you have access to like Nature's hidden menu of particles, things that can exist in the universe but don't typically because there aren't the conditions to make them. So the LEDC is big and it's powerful, but it doesn't have infinite energy.
Yeah.
Well, at the time it was built, it did sort of break I mean, it definitely broke new ground in terms of how much energy you could get in an experiment. But I guess you ran the LC and it found the exposon and all these amazing discoveries, and now you're kind of thinking about what's next, How can we get more energy?
Yeah, we're always thinking about what's next. The collider that came just before the LAC was just outside Chicago. It was the Tevatron. They had about two terra electron vaults and the Large Hadron Collider has about thirteen terra electron volts. And that's a big jump, right, That's like almost a factor of seven in terms of the territory we could explore and imagine, for example, multiplying the territory you've explored by a factor of seven. If you're in the field of like geology or you know, planetary astronomy. You've only ever looked at Earth, and now you can simultaneously land on seven new planets all at the same time and see what's there and learn all about it. So when we turned on the Large Hadron Collider, it's like we multiplied by a factor of seven the sort of size of the particle universe that we were able to explore and to look at, and we didn't know what was there. Every time we do these kinds of explorations, there could be huge surprises waiting for us, or sort of nothing. And as you say, we found the Higgs boson, but we've been running for quite a few years and I haven't found anything else since. So now we're wondering, like, hmm, what's around the next corner if we crack open another energy range, will there be crazy discoveries waiting for us, or just more dust and rubble.
Yeah, So the LC sort of got you to a certain level, which was amazing, But I guess you feel like you've already explored this level. You've looked into every corner of this energy level, and you're kind of feeling like there's nothing else here.
That's a very delicate political question as we seek approval for running the Large Chandron Collider for another fifteen years, because we're trying to make the science case that running it for a lot longer can look for really rare particles that maybe we missed in sort of the first scoop. So we're sort of going in two directions at once. One group of people is like, let's run this thing for as long as possible and maybe look for really rare stuff we might have missed, and the other group is looking towards the future and saying, hmm, can we build the next one? Can we plan now for the super LHC?
The super LHC nice sounds like a like I said over Hero, Well, I guess the problem is that the LC was big and it was a little expensive, But now if you want to get into higher energies, it gets even bigger and more expensive, right with the same technology it does.
Basically, the only thing that limits us from building a bigger accelerator, or from having built one instead of the LAC is money. The cost of the accelerator just scales with the size, sort of like building a highway. It's like a million dollars per mile, more miles means some more millions of dollars. So you want more energy, you got to build a bigger collider, which costs more money. And so now people are wondering, like, h should we just spend ten times as much money on a super duper version of this or should we figure out a cheaper way to do it?
Yeah, because I guess first of all, you'll know that I said, with the existing technology, it's going to be bigger and more expensive. And also I don't think most scientists are going to cut their salary, and Havel makes a cheaper endeavor. So I guess, like you said, we have to start looking at maybe new technologies. So today the podcast, we'll be asking the question, is there a better way to accelerate particles? I guess that you've been using one way to accelerate particles all this time or several ways.
Right, We've been accelerating particles since about the nineteen thirties, and we've had a series of sort of technological revolutions. People come up with a new idea to make them more powerful and get like a big jump in energy. We're sort of at the end of one of those cycles. We've been doing it the same way for a few decades now, and we can get sort of like little incremental increases without just making it bigger, And so sort of feels like about the time that we need to jump to the next technology and figure out like a whole new way to do this kind of thing.
Yeah, Like, if maybe the engineers figure out a better way to get particles moving, you could maybe make accelerators that are at the same energy or more but a lot cheaper. Right, That's the whole point, And maybe eventually you'll just have it on your phone.
Eventually there's an app for that.
Yeah, how for shooting light speed particles from your phone? That seems useful.
Well, you do have a light speed accelerator on your phone right now. I mean you have a flashlight which literally shoots out particles at light speed. Unfortunately not high enough energy to do any interesting physics. But yeah, the dream is like, instead of having to collaborate with five thousand people from all over the world on a ten billion dollar project, why can't I just build this thing on a tabletop in my own basement or in my lab here at you see Irvine for two hundred thousand dollars or something, and run my own experiments. Why can't everybody have their own plank scale particle collider to explore the nature of the universe?
Why can't and why shouldn't they? But that's not the topic today. The topic is can that happen? Like, can you imagine a future where you can have a particle collider that's as powerful as the LHC, which is huge, which is several kilometers along and underground. Can you maybe have that in like a little box in your basement.
It's such a dream. I mean, imagine all the secrets we could learn, those secrets that are just out there waiting for us if we only have the technology to crack them open. It's like we're in a room surrounded by locked boxes and we just don't have the key to any of them.
You need the engineers to save users.
What you're saying, we definitely do need the engineers working closely with the physicist to figure this all out.
Well.
As usual, we were wondering how many people had thought about this question of whether or not there's maybe a better way to accelerate particles.
So thank you to everybody who answers these questions for the podcast to give us a sense for what people are thinking and what they already know. If you'd like to participate for a future episode, please don't be shy. Right to meet you questions at Danielandhorkay dot com.
So think about it for a second. Do you think there's a better way to accelerate particles. Here's what people have to say.
My understanding of current method is that we apply electromagnetic field to accelerate a particle, and then they are propelled in high velocities in a tunnel. I'm not sure if there is any other way that this could be done. There must be, of course, but I don't think it will be that controlled, and this might be more physible.
I have no clue how that can be done well right away.
I think about the fact that particles go to incredible speeds when they're orbiting a black hole in the accretion disk, So maybe gravity would be a better way to accelerate particles. I just have no idea how we'd.
Go about doing that.
I think a better way to accelerate particles might be to give it more energy, or like heat, because if you have a lot of energy, you're going to be moving fast. It also works the same way with heat, because like, if you're cold, you don't want to move, you stay in the same place.
I suppose if you could get yourself a mini black hole and whip the particles around the event horizon, they might speed up pretty good.
I was wondering when I asked these questions, what if somebody actually came up with some super genius way to do this, but I end up like collaborating with them, or like would they get the patent for it? I mean it could have been thorny well.
Like would you have to pay them some of your salary? That would be such a difficult question.
I'd hire them on the spot.
Absolutely, there are some pretty interesting ideas here. I think maybe there are, you know, maybe the next big idea. It wasn't one of those answers.
You think the mini black hole is the solution of the problem. Yeah, first build a super collider to create mini black holes. Then use those mini black holes to accelerate particles. It's like a bootstrap. Yeah.
Yeah. Or gravity. That was kind of an interesting idea. I mean, we use gravity all the time to accelerate spacecraft.
Right, We definitely do use gravity, absolutely, and gravity does accelerate particles like particles fall towards the Earth all the time. They're called cosmic rays, and they actually do achieve super high energies and create massive collisions in the atmosphere that physicists study and use to try to understand like how particles interact and what it all means. But those are a little more difficult to control.
All right, Well, it's an interesting question. How do we accelerate particles faster, cheaper, and better? I guess cheaper, faster, better is and that the goal of any industry exactly.
And then making an app how.
Do we do physics cheaper, faster, be Well, maybe step us through here. How do we currently accelerate particles? Like how does the LHC exactly? How does it get particles moving so fast?
Well, I don't know if that pun was intended or not, but we currently use electrical currents to accelerate particles.
Yes, that was totally on purpose. I wasn't trying to amp anything up or anything.
I'm just trying to be a positive, reinforcing partner on the podcast.
Yes, I'm I'm also just trying to you know, kind of work the field here.
This is why we don't charge for this podcast.
Please stop with the electrifyingly terrible puns. Here, let's get done in nuts and bolts. How are those mets and bolts put together?
In the LHC moving past our magnetic sensit of humor. Essentially, we can only accelerate charged particles, and the reason is that we use electric fields in order to do it. Electric fields can tug on charge particles. That's essentially what they are. And so the basics is, you want a particle moving fast, you put it an electric field. The voltage there will accelerate the particle in one direction. That's like the super basic initial version of a particle accelerator.
I meaning basically you set up like a magnet, right, and then you have the magnet attract charge particles, and then that gets a movie.
Well, we do have magnets, but magnets actually cannot accelerate particles. They can only bend them. They can change their direction, but they can't speed them up. But an electric field can actually accelerate something. And so, for example, the old televisions that people used to watch, the ones that are not flat screens, had an electron accelerator in the back of them, had a little gun that would accelerate electrons across an electric field and shoot it at the back of the screen and that's what actually made the images. So everybody used to have their own little particle accelerator in their house shooting into their brains ext every night, and that uses an electric field. It's basically a cathode tube. We have a voltage applied and it boils electrons off of one of the nodes and towards the other one.
But I guess what I'm saying, it basically basically works. It's like a magnet, right cathorat tube is basically you're using magnetism to move the electrons along.
Yeah, I mean you're using electromagnetism. More generally, you're using the electric field to accelerate it, and then you add a magnet in order to steer the electrons. So yeah, absolutely, it's all electromagnetism. And that's why, for example, we have proton accelerators and electron accelerators. We don't have neutron accelerators or neutral atom accelerators because things have to have a charge in order for an electric field to push on them.
Yeah, I guess just kind of generally that's how things push and pull. Most of the time you hear on earth, right, like when I pick up a glass of water, or when you push on the door, you're really using electromagnetic forces to push those things.
Yeah, that's absolutely right. A baseball is tugged by gravity, but most of the interactions you have are really electromagnetic interactions. The electrons that the tip of your finger are pushing against the electrons in the wall and resisting. That's why things seem to be solid, because the forces that fill the space between the tiny little particles, that's what gives volume volume, and so that's what constructs our world. Absolutely, it would be a very very different world without electromagnetic forces.
Yeah, you just made me realize, like all the neutrons in our bodies and the objects around us, we're not really pushing them directly, right, Like, it's more like our electrons are pushing the electrons and those atoms, and those electrons are pushing the protons in the nucleus, and then those are the ones that are pushing on the neutrons inside of atoms.
Yeah, the protons and the neutrons stick together using the strong force, and so that's what clumps them together. Yeah, it's all a big dance of the forces we've discovered to make the world that we know and love.
All right, Well, that's the basic way that celerators work right now is using electromagnetic fields. Let's get into a little bit more detail about that and then also talk about maybe new ways that we can get particles going for better and more powerful colliders. But first let's take a quick break.
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All right, we're talking about new accelerator technologies here, but first we're talking about old accelerator technologies. And you said, we've had this old technology since the fifties, right, or fifties or thirties.
So the very first accelerators were like in the thirties and the forties. They got more powerful in the fifties, which is what heralded like the era of the particle zoo, as people were smashing particles together at higher energies and discovering all sorts of stuff. But it basically started with just accelerat things over our gap, and then people tried to re use that gap multiple times, so like you know, if you go across that gap, you speed up. Can we go across that gap more than once? So they had accelerators called cyclotrons where a particle would go in a circle and go across the gap multiple times. They had singotrons where you got even more sophisticated and you would try to like sync up the energy in the gap with when the particle was going faster and faster.
And so I think the basic idea is that if you have an electron, first of all, you sort of create an electron and you kind of put it out there in space in the air by itself, and then you basically hold a positive electric charge ahead of it basically or a negative charge behind it, and then that electromagnetic repulsion or attraction then moves your electron forward and that's how you get it going.
Yeah, that's basically how you do it. And you can imagine doing that with like a battery. For example, a battery can create that kind of voltage difference between two plates by shuttling the electrons from one side to the other, so that if you put an electron in the gap there, it'll get pushed towards the lower voltage and that's what the acceleration is. So essentially, a you arrange the charges to give you an electric field to push on an electron, and that will accelerate it.
Yeah, like you said, like in a battery, Like a battery will maybe concentrate the electrons in a coil or a wire or played towards the back, and then that will push your single electron forward. But there's only kind of so much that you can push it, right doing it that.
Way, Yeah, there's only so much you can push it. You can try to pump a lot of energy into that electric field, but eventually things will break down. Like if you have two pieces of metal and you put a really strong electric field across them, eventually it will pull the electrons out of that metal and break down the electric field and.
Then what you do is, once the electron gets going, then you use another electric field up ahead to accelerate it even more.
Yeah. So, because you can't put an infinite amount of energy into a single one of these sort of like little accelerators, because it'll break down the way like lightning is like a breakdown of the voltage between the air and the ground. Then you stack them up. You say, well, I'm gonna have one, and they might have another one that might have another one other one. You just sort of like line these things up so that each one gives your electron a little bit of a push.
Yeah, And I guess initially in the fifties they would use they would put these in a straight line, right like, you accelerate an electron with one accelerator, and then then the next one picks it up and accelerates it even more, and you use sort of like a tunnel or a gun or like the barrel of a rifle, and that gets your electrons going even faster.
Exactly. There's a little bit of a wrinkle there though, because what happens when your electron passes a sort of negative potential plate of the first one is it wants to slow down. If you imagine like a bunch of positive charges there that are pulling the electron towards that first plate, what happens when it passes it? Now those positive charges are pulling it back, And so people develop these really fancy techniques to oscillate the voltage across those plates. So when the particle is moving towards it pulling it towards it, and then just as it passes it flips the charges and pushes it away. So we have these like RF cavities they're called, with these oscillating fields that are time per p to speed the particles up and then avoid slowing them down. And as you say, the strategy to making them bigger and longer and faster is just to stack them up to like make a big tunnel and put a bunch of these in there.
Yeah, that's how they did it initially. But then at some point they figured out that you can get even more acceleration by having the particles go in a circle and basically go through this accelerating part multiple times, and then they can go faster and faster and faster each time.
Yeah. So the one design of the accelerator is called the linear accelerator. There's one like that at Stanford. There's one like that in Germany. We just shoot them down a tunnel. It's a one go. You speed them up, get them to as fast as you can, and then you collide them at the end. But another strategy is to reuse the tunnel by having it go in a circle. And so as you say, you have like something that gives it a kick, and then you have something that bends it, and you have something it gives it a kick, and then you have something that bends it. And so the large chandron colliders like that. It's a big circle, and the particles move around a tunnel, and there's segments that push it and then segments that bend it using very powerful.
Magnets bend it, do you mean like I said, And they make the particles kind of go right a little bit, and then that makes them go in a circle.
Yeah.
So the particles move not actually in a perfect circle, because they move in straight lines through the little mini accelerator segments and then they bend through the magnet. So it's more like a really big polygon with a bunch of straight sides.
Yeah.
I guess the difference is sort of like the between a sling shot, like you pull back and then you let go and the rowerbands throw the rock forward or whatever you're trying to shoot, and using a sling where you like put the rock in a little sling and then you spin and spin and spin, and each time you spin it you make it go faster and then at some point you let it go.
Yeah, Or if we're going to use like kid analogies, it's like the difference between a slide you start at the top and you go fast and you hit the bottom, or a merry go round where your friend can keep pushing it faster and faster and faster, and you're going around faster and faster until you both throw up.
And that's really what particle physics is all about, right, throwing up what's inside of the fundamental particles.
Yeah, we're exploring the vomit frontier in the end.
It's right, you're vomit physicists, nihilist vomits.
And that's basically the technology. The large hadron collider is push and bend, push and bend, push and bend, and what limits the large Addrount collider is essentially the size of the tunnel building that kind of tunnel and filling it with all that technology is expensive. But in order to get fast, you gotta go big.
Well, maybe talk a little bit about why it needs to be bigger. It's because of the limitations in the magnets that bend the path of the particles. Right, Like, if you can get stronger magnets or a better way to kind of curve the path of these particles, then you could have the same circle, but just have the particles go faster in it.
Yeah, if you had stronger magnets that could bend them more effectively at the same speed, then yeah, you could have a smaller circle, which means you could reuse the same linear accelerating segments at the same magnets more times. Right, so we go around more times to get to the same speed. But you could build a smaller device instead of having to be like tens of kilometers around. Right, this tunnel, the large Addrount collider is filled with tens of colli bometers of these things. Right, it's not a small device. But if the magnets were more powerful and you could bend it, then you could basically shrink the size of that circle and the whole thing would be smaller and.
Cheaper, right, because I guess the problem is that the faster the particles go, the harder it is to get them to go in a circle, right, Because the faster they're going, the kind of more guess centrifugal the force you need to kind of keep them in a circle.
Yeah, you need strong magnets to move very high speed particles in a circle. It's a centripetal force towards the center that keeps something moving in a circle, the same way the Earth moves around the Sun because of the force of gravity pulling it towards the Sun. So we can make these particles kind of like orbit the center of the collider using these magnets to bend their path to provide that same kind of force. And if we could provide a stronger force, we could bend them in a tighter circle.
Yeah. So like right now, you probably could accelerate the particles faster, Like you can make them go faster, but you wouldn't be able to basically control them. Like if you accelerated them any faster, they would basically go off the rails kind of right, Like they would start hitting the walls of your collider. And that would burn them up, and then you'd poke a hole in your top tunnel and then the whole thing goes That's right.
We're limited either by the magnet technology or by the size of the tunnel. Like we can make the tunnel bigger with the same magnets and then we could get the higher energy, or we could make the tunnel smaller with stronger magnets to get to the same energy. But if we had the same tunnel and we just whizzed them around more and kept pushing on them, then eventually we would not be able to contain them using our magnets. It would just slam into the wall.
So if you increase the energy, do you have someone down there at the basement going she can't take any more captain.
Yeah, that's a specific job, m absolutely yeah.
And you have to hire a Scotland from your collaboration to do that.
No, we prefer Panamanians who do a Scottish accent.
Actually, oh yeah, that's just as good.
No comment for our Scottish listeners. But our magnet technology is pretty awesome. I mean, we have super conducting magnets down there. We're really pushing the limits of what magnets can do. And so one way we could improve particle colliders is to make some breakthrough in magnet technology to make these things more powerful and smaller or cheaper.
What's the limitation, I guess is it just that the magnets. You're already running as much current as you can through these magnets or what.
Yeah, we're running as much current as we can without them breaking down. They're already cooled down to a few degrees Calvin. So we could take advantage of their super conducting nature, which means we get super duper strong magnets out of our current and they don't like heat up and distort. Maybe you remember that when we turned on the large Hendron collider, there was a disaster in two thousand and nine, just a few months in, and some of the liquid helium that was keeping this thing cool sprayed out everywhere and the whole thing warmed up, and it was a big disaster. So these things are not easy to operate and to keep functional. One of the many ways that the beam can go wrong is something we call a quench, when one of the magnets basically fails and the beam just like gets dumped into the rock. And so we're really operating at the limit of magnet technology.
All right, Well, then I guess the idea is that is there like a revolutionary new technology or a totally different way of doing the whole particle accelerating thing that could maybe like let you get away with faster velocities without having these gigantic tunnels and these superconducting magnets.
Oh there is, and I'm dying to talk about it.
Well, I step us through this, Daniel. What is this amazing technology called and how does it work?
So the idea is, instead of making a magnet stronger, can we make the accelerator part much more powerful? Can we accelerate particles to much higher energies over a shorter distance. I remember before the limitation was that we couldn't have strong enough electric fields across two metal plates because it would like make a breakdown between those plates. Remember that right now, in our colliders, these particles are accelerated through a vacuum, So between those plates is not like air, So you're not getting like ionization of the air the way you do when you have like static electricity or lightning being from the ground to the earth. It's really a pure breakdown of the metal, right, You're like pulling the electrons off of the metal. And so in order to avoid this breakdown, people are thinking, well, maybe we shouldn't have a vacuum, maybe we should fill that with something in order to avoid a breakdown. And so one idea is to use a plasma instead of having a vacuum.
So let me see if I get this straight. It's sort of like the same technology where you have plates, like metal plates, and in these plates you basically like run a current through them so that you kind of make a magnet basically. But now the twist is that instead of having it in a vacuum, you put it inside of a plasma.
That's right, we use a plasma instead of having a vacuum. But now we don't have the external electric field provided by some plates. Now we use the plasma itself to generate the electric fields internally. So wait, there's no plates, there's no plates at all. No, but we think that it's possible to generate much stronger electric fields within the plasma than it is between two metal plates in a vacuum.
Okay, so you use the plasma the plate kind.
Of mm hmm exactly, And so you take this plasma and you like zap it with a laser, which rearranges all the charges within the plasma in such a way to create very strong electric fields inside the plasma that can then be used to accelerate particles. That's the basic idea.
So what would this look like like a like a tube basically kind of or a tunnel filled with plasma, and then you're shooting lasers into this to create kind of like variations in the electric fields inside of the plasma exactly.
Remember that a plasma is just really hot gas. Like you take hydrogen hydrogen as a proton an electron, The electron is happily orbiting the nucleus the proton, and if you give that electron more energy, it goes up an energy level sort of larger orbital radius, and you keep doing that, eventually the electron goes free. And so that's what a plasma is. The electrons have so much energy that they're not bound anymore to the protons. So it's a charged gas, right. It has positive and negative charges all flowing around in it, unlike new hydrogen, which is you know, protons and electrons bound tightly together, so they're effectively neutral. So this plasma is like microscopically charged, but typically it's like macroscopically neutral. You take like a big chunk of it has the same number of electrons and protons, but you can induce waves in it. You can like pull on the electrons or zapp all the electrons get them to move in one direction, which will create an electric field within the plasma.
Like you're creating a current of electrons inside of the plasma. Is that what you mean?
What you actually do is create like a wakefield inside of it, So it's not literally a current, but yeah, you're creating like these waves of electrons through the plasma. They're like density waves where the electrons are like wiggling, and that creates electromagnetic fields which you can then use to accelerate particles. So you have this tube as you set of plasma, and you zap it with the laser, and you choose the laser frequency just right to excite oscillations in the electrons in the plasma to create this wakefield, and then you dump your particle into it and it sort of like surfs along this electromagnetic field that you've created with your laser, and it gets shot at the end going much much faster.
Hmmm. Interesting, all right, well, maybe take a step little bit of the step back here. How does the laser cause the electrons to form into waves? Like do electrons interact with photons? Is that the idea.
Electrons do interact with photons, and so lasers are just like a great way to dump energy into the plasma. And typically you can think about a plasma as like a bunch of individual particles. You know, you have protons, you have electrons, they have charges, so they can interact with photons and fields and all this stuff. But that's a little bit of a nightmare because there are so many of them. It just seems like a buzzing chaos. But you could also think about the plasmas sort of like collectively and think about the collective motion of the electrons. So plasmas have like tiny, little local behavior, but they also have sort of like long distant collective behavior. You can get plasmas to do things like have waves moving through them, and so if you dump a laser beam into it with the right frequency, you can sort of excite it to do these waves the same way you can if you like slap your hand against the surface of a lake and do it at the right frequency, you can get the lake to produce these waves.
But I guess the main mechanism is that it's interacting with the electrons, because I guess light doesn't interact with the protons.
The light does interact with the protons as well. Right, protons are also charged, but remember protons are much more massive than electrons, and so the same energy doesn't accelerate those protons to move as much. So this whole thing happens really really fast. Basically before the protons can sort of get out of bed, the electrons have this big wave that passes through them, and the protons are like, huh what.
Sort of like me? And in this podcast right now? All right, well, let's react to that laser bit of knowledge there, and let's dig a little bit more into this effect. Then how you can use it to accelery particles maybe faster than the large hadron collider. But first, let's take another quick break.
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All right, we're talking about a new way to a killery particles that is maybe faster and cheaper and better than the current technology which is at the Large Hadron Collider. And so this technology involves using a plasma. So you have a plasma which is like a gas where all of the atoms have been broken down into single electrons and maybe protons or at least clumps of protons, and so you have this soup of all this stuff floating around that has a charge, and then you shoot a laser into it and somehow that laser excites things or maybe it causes electrons to clump or to scatter. What exactly is happening there.
It causes the electrons to wiggle. It creates like a way of the electrons moving through the plasma. And again you choose it very specifically the laser pulse length to be resonant with the modes of the plasma. Everything that can wiggle. Everything we could describe in terms of like wave physics has resonant frequencies. The way, for example, your shower is really good at amplifying certain frequencies when you're singing and not others, or guitar strings like to oscillate at certain frequencies and not others. There are resonant frequencies in the same way that like a laser is made us a resonant cavity. And so the equations of the motion of the electrons through the plasma allow for certain frequencies of collective motion where the electrons will like slosh back and forth altogether. Instead of getting like a bunch of individual electrons doing their own thing, you get this like collective behavior of all the electrons if you push it the right way, sort of like pushing your kid on a swing. Right, you push it the right frequency, and your kid can get going really really fast. You push it like random times, then you're going to get like chaotic motion of the swing.
And I guess that's what the light is doing. The full time will hit electrons in a certain way, and because of the frequency, does it in different ways in different locations, and that's how you create the wave inside of the plasma exactly.
And so in order to do this you need laser pulses. You're not just like shining a bright laser beam into this thing and heating up all the electrons you're doing laser pulses, so that you have like laser pulses at different locations through the plasma at the same time. So those pulse lengths and the pulse timings have to be just right to excite this motion in the plasma. Push on the right electrons at the right moment across the plasma to get this thing going.
I guess it's sort of like you said, it's like having a pool and then you have kind of like a wave maker in the back, like one of those pool and those water parks. Right, You're like you're using the laser to create waves in the pool, and then you're sort of dropping like a little kid in a life preserver, and then they will get pushed by the waves to the shallow end. That's kind of the idea, right.
That's the idea. And the reason this works better than the previous approach of just having like two metal plates and electric field across them is because you can have much much stronger electric fields in a plasma without anything breaking down. Basically, the plasma is already broken down, right, there's nothing else to break down, So.
Like there's no limit to how much you can bunch electrons together or something within a plasma or there Maybe the kind is right, isn't there? Like, you can't bunch electrons infinitely.
You can't bunch it infinitely, but you can dump a lot of energy into this plasma. And the cool thing is your laser beam doesn't have to have as much energy sort of per photon. You can just do a lot of photons to end up with a lot of energy, So you don't need to already have a super high energy laser to create a super high energy particle beam. You can use a high intensity laser to dump a lot of energy into the plasma, which creates these fields, and then accelerate particles to very high energy.
Now which particles are you accelerating then, the electrons in the plasma or the protons in the plasma, or are you trying to accelerate something else?
Neither right, So then you dump in a particle bunch that you're trying to accelerate, and they move through the plasma following this wake. Following the wake of these electrons, they're sort of like the surfers.
Wouldn't you be accelerating protons to aren't protons part of the soup, Like, how do you know, like if you have a soup with a wave instead of like in our pool analogy, you have a wave maker in the back and you're trying to accelerate a drop of water you dump into it.
So the protons in the plasma don't get accelerated because they don't respond on this timescale. The whole thing happens like too fast for them to even get moving. The electrons in the plasma they do get excited, and you do get this wave through the plasma, and then you have a third bunch which sort of rides that electric wave. The wake of that electron wave is a very high gradient electric field which you will accelerate a particle that's put in just the right location and velocity, the same way a surfer needs to catch a wave to ride it, they need to be in the right spot and already going at the right speed. That's why the surfer rides the wave. But the other things are left behind. So you have this like third group which rides that wake sort of like the surfer on the wave right.
Right, but except that the surfer is made out of water too.
Yes, in this case, the surfer is made out of matter. The waves are made out of matter, right, It's just a question of where you are and how fast you're already going. And so if you're in the right location, if it's time to just right, then you're riding that wave and you're constantly getting accelerated, whereas electrons and these waves are sort of sloshing back and forth.
I guess, I mean, what's confusing me is that I feel like if you drop a bunch of electrons into an electron soup, they'll just get, you know, absorbed by the soup.
You know.
But maybe the right way to think about it is more like you have this wave pool. You're making the waves, and then you shoot some there's a jet of water in the bag that's shooting it towards the shallow end, and somehow it kind of gets an extra boostive speed by the waves.
If you just dropped electrons into any random spot in the plasma, they would become part of the plasma. But if you set up this wave and then inject particles at the right place with the right speed, they can ride the wave generated by the plasma without becoming part of the plasma.
All right, that's the technology it's using plasma. But plasma is kind of tricky, right, Plasma is super duper hard and it's really hard to contain, and you also need magnets to contain plasma. So how well does this technology work?
Well, it works really really well so far. It's taken decades. Like the original ideas are from like the fifties, and then in the seventies people started working on the first prototypes. It was actually here at U see Irvine and a guy named Norm Rustoker who pioneered this technology together with his grad student Toshiki Tejima. But they were limited by the laser technology you need, like really really fast pulses. And then in the nineties people developed like super ultrafast SYNCD lasers and that's when the first demonstration was performed. But by now people have been doing it all over the world and they've been able to create these little accelerators that can accelerate particles to very high speeds over short distances. And we typically measure this in terms of like how much energy can you dump into a particle per centimeter, right, Because you want to accelerate a particle and you don't want to have to take a mile or two miles to do it, and so these little plasma accelerators have been able to accelerate particles to much higher energies per centimeter than the traditional approach, by a factor of like one hundred or one thousand hmm.
Cool, But I guess you know, how are they overcoming the difficulties in the problem, right, Like how do you first of all, maintain a plasma that's pretty hard, and then how do you shoot electrons into it? And how do you get them out of the plasma.
So maintaining a plasma is not always that hard, right, Like you have plasma in the fluorescent lights that are above you, or it's just very dilute, and so it doesn't like destroy the glass. And you typically think about plasmas being really hard to contain in the case of like fusion experiments, when you need a certain density. Also in order to enact fusion, we don't want fusion happening in these plasmas, so they don't have to be actually that dense, So the containment is not nearly as challenging as it is in the case of fusion experience. You can just basically have a can of the plasma and it's.
All right, and that's enough to get particles going.
That's enough to get particles going. The main challenge was really the lasers, and now they've solved that, and so now they've really demonstrated this. They have these devices that can actually accelerate particles do like tens of GeV over centimeters or tens of centimeters, which is very exciting.
It's exciting because it's a small amount, but you're also you're thinking ahead and you're thinking, we're going to stack these up to get like a thousand of these to get a terra electronvole exactly.
So now the question is can they scale. Whether they've done it, they've proven the principle that you can accelerate particles more effectively over short distances, but we're not that interested in tiny little accelerators. We still want them kind of big so we can get to really high energies. And so the question is can you stack these things up? And that's where the technological struggle is right now, because what you need to do is like match these things up. You need to keep these things in sync. When you have the particles that you're accelerating come out of one stage of a plasm accelerator and you want to send them into the next one, then you have to like time the laser pulses in that next plasma accelerator perfectly, so like your little bunch of accelerating particles hit just the right part of the wave, otherwise everything is lost. And in order to get that all that timing just perfectly in sync is very, very challenging. So what they've been able to do is match a couple of stages, maybe up to like five stages, but nobody's confident that they can do it for like one hundred or one thousand, which is the kind of thing you would need to do to really get to like physics level accelerators where we start answering deep questions about the universe.
So we're maybe still kind of far away because you would need to be able to sink and stack. Like you're saying, hundreds of these in a row or maybe one in a circle. Is the idea to put them all in a row and for a straight accelerator or to maybe replace accelerators at the LAC It.
Depends on what you want to accelerate. For electrons, you can't really accelerate them in a circle because when you bend the electrons in a circle, they radiate away photons and they lose their energy really really fast. Protons, however, you can accelerate them in a circle. Because they have more masks, they tend to radiate less. So that's why protons accelerators tend to be circles and electron accelerators tend to be straight lines. So people want to do both. They want to do straight electron accelerators and they want to curve protons into circles to smash them together. Protons we can tend to get to higher energies because of these circular colliders. I think those technology has come a long way in the last few decades. It's definitely not ready for primetime. Nobody's like proposing, let's build one of these things in five years or ten years. But there are like larger and larger demonstration experiments being built and that are working, and lots of different ideas that people are using to develop these things, not just laser pulses, as ones where you drive it with a proton beam and all sorts of other variations. It's a very exciting area and it might be in like you know, a couple of decades that we're ready to talk about like building a LEDC size or super LEDC sized particle accelerator that signal defficantly smaller than the other plans we have, So.
This technology will also accilerate protons.
It can also accelerate protons, Yes.
But then I guess you'll run into the same problem that you have in the LHC, Like if you can make them go faster, but then you still need to manage to bend them into a circle or you need to build a bigger circle.
Yeah, you'll still have that problem if you want to bend it into a circle. But if you have a super duper plasma accelerator, maybe you just get them up to super high speeds in a straight line, which could also work for protons. I mean, if it's powerful enough, then you don't need to go around many, many times.
Interesting, Well, there's a lot of promise there. It sounds like.
It's definitely something people are hoping is around the corner, and that might revolutionize the way we're doing particle physics, because the way we're doing it right now definitely doesn't seem sustainable. I mean, particle physicists are talking about the next generation of colliders and how it's going to cost one hundred billion dollars and I'm all for it, you know, of course, but I'm pretty skeptical that governments are going to pony up that much money for another experiment, And so I'm looking forward to, you know, the revolution that makes particle physics cheaper, faster better.
Did I tell you ever once went to a conference for this technology?
No you didn't. Did it accelerate your mind?
Yeah? I got I got smashed, My brain got smashed a thousand tiny bits. All right, Well, there's a lot of promise in this new way of accelerating things, but it also sounds like there's a ton of challenges because you still have to scale these up and you still have to maybe potentially bend them into a circle. Which city should we build the next giant particle collider on?
Your Pasadena? Oh?
Good? Good? Not South Pasadena.
Exactly, always your neighbors.
All right. Well, hopefully that made you think a little bit about how scientists are out there trying to break things apart and trying to uncover what's inside of the fundamental particles that make up nature and matter itself.
That's right, because to answer the deepest questions in the universe. We need to develop more and more technology. We need better and more clever engineers to give us the tools we can use to ask these questions. And maybe it's going to be plasma technology, or maybe it's going to be something totally different that somebody else out there thinks up.
We need more money or cheaper physicists, one of the two, but the skim fund the engineers. All right, well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, See you next time.
Thanks for listening, and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. House US dairy tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic digesters to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy. That can power farms, towns and electric cars. Visit you as Dairy dot COM's Last sustainability to learn more.
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