Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseDaniel and Jorge push and pull on the simple picture of particles exchanging other particles
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Hey Jorge, I'm wondering how you feel about the Midi Chlorians, those little critters that give Jedi the ability to interact with the Force.
You mean, in Star Wars. I mostly try to ignore them. They're a bit of an awkward, retroactive continuity or redcon of the original series.
MM so you prefer the original approach, where it's like more democratic. Anybody can learn the force like yoga.
You mean like Yoda or yoga.
I mean like Yoda doing.
Yoga and like downward facing Jedi.
That conjured up a pretty awkward mental image.
How flexible is Yoda? We may never know.
Well, I'm a fan of the Midi Chlorians. I feel like they're more scientific.
Oh, are you a fan of jar Jar Binks too, because I think most people who are in that camp are also in the jar Jar Binks camp, but you're not. It'sall made up, right, it's not real science.
I know it's not real science, but it's science error.
You know.
It's a better microscopic explanation than just like hand waving yoga magic.
I think the magic in Star Wars is literally handwaving, like waving your hands in front of your face, going, does this not the signs you're looking for?
I need the old physics mind trick instead.
That's right, REDCN, our real universe, not my childhood fantasy.
That's my job.
Hi.
I'm Jorge Am, a cartoonist and the author of Oliver's Great Big Universe.
Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and that means my job is to explain away all the apparent magic in the universe.
You have to understand it first, though, don't you. Isn't that step one? Or are you just making stuff up? Are you? Georgie Lucas seing it?
I think explaining it away is understanding it. Describing how something works in terms of it's like tiny bits and how they bump and dance together. That's basically an explanation.
Or maybe I think you're maybe saying your job is to look for explanations.
Yeah, and sometimes we actually find them.
Yeah, and then explain it to other pe books like we do in this podcast. So welcome to Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.
In which we try to take everything in the universe that seems unexplainable, that seems magical, and figure out how it comes to be, Drill down into its tiny little bits and particles, and explain how they bump and dance and push on each other to weave themselves together into our reality. To explain why yoga feels so good or so bad?
That's right, because it is a marvelous universe out there, with giantgaxies moving across at cosmos and stars exploding and black holes sucking stuff in, and we're interested in knowing what are some of the forces that bind it all together, that flow through us and make it all make sense.
And is it even possible to explain all of that craziness, all the amazing things we experience in the universe, from leaves swirling in the fall to black holes collapsing in terms of tiny particles. It really possible to break it all down and say it's just a bunch of electrons passing particles back and forth.
I feel like you're minimizing electrons. You said only a bunch of electrons. But electrons are pretty pretty special, aren't they. Each one is a tiny snowflake in the universe.
They're all actually identical right in a way snowflakes aren't even But I think the job of particle physics is literally to minimize the universe, to say everything that's big can be explained in terms of everything that's small.
Yeah, I guess that's a job of physics to break things down. And I guess throughout the history of humans and signs. That's what you have been doing right, first breaking things down into types of elements, and then atoms and then atomic particles.
Yeah, we hope that breaking things down will give us explanations, will reveal the true nature of the universe, and that we could go the opposite direction also from the little bits tooing and frowing, that we can weave those little bits back together. All their tuing and frowing can be sewn together to explain everything that happens, the way like water droplets eventually could explain a hurricane, and the way quantum particles somehow make up your classical body. We hope that by drilling down we can expose the most fundamental layer of the universe and then build back up to explain everything.
Yeah, and so, little by little, scientists have come up with a picture of the universe that can be broken down into subatomic particles called electrons and quarks and also force particles. So the question is does it all make sense? Does it all stick?
We have a mathematical description of how this all works which is incredibly precise. We can predict the outcomes of experiments to ten or fifteen decimal places and mostly get it right, But is it possible to get an intuitive understanding to tell ourselves, like a little story about what's happening down there in the quantum realm in a way that gives us some insights, some understanding. Is it really true that particles are zipping around tossing force particles back and forth together or is something deeper happening?
Yeah, so we're here to force out the truth. So today on the podcast, we'll be asking the question how do particles carry force? Generic force, not the force? Right?
This is science Force, not science fiction force or magical force.
Who Science Force? I want to be part of that team. Do you wear uniforms? Do you have like a secret base?
Absolutely, they're snappier than the Space Force.
Also, yeah, well I'll join either one, to be honest, anything that has a base and involves space or science and laser guns.
I mean, I think we settle this already. The Science Force is going to elect you to be part of the Space Force and send you up to meet the aliens.
Wait, wait, when do we settle this? I didn't sign any any agreements here.
Oh sorry, we had a meeting of the Science Force. I guess you weren't there.
Yeah, yeah, I guess it depends on how much you're paying me. How much are you paying me to do this? Daniel? And or am I surviving relatives?
Yeah? You get paid on your return? Is that all right?
What do you mean? I pay or I get paid?
You get paid if you survive?
That sounds like a terrible deal. Do you get paid only if you discover something in physics, Daniel? Or do you get paid either way?
I'm getting paid and I ain't never discovered anything?
Then the aswards, Yes, so far, so far right, there's always an optimism.
That's right, dating over yet, that's right.
Your career over yet? But maybe have a podcast long enough and who knows what you'll say, day tuned folks. But anyways, it's an interesting question because we tend to think of matter and the things around us is being made out of particles. That kind of makes sense. But the idea that maybe the forces between those particles, the things that make you stand here on Earth, or that makes all your atoms stick together or your hair stent up when they're there's static electricity, those things could be due to particles also is kind of confusing, right, It.
Is confusing, and yet it's something you hear a lot in popular science without a sort of deeper explanation for what the limits are of that description. You know, everything in the end is an analogy, and those analogies always break down at some point, So which parts of that story are true and which parts of that story are just a cartoon?
That's right. You don't want to force a force analogy. That's too deep, All right? Well, as usual, we were wondering how many people out there I thought about the idea of particles caring force and how they might do that.
Thanks to everybody who volunteers for this audience participation segment of the podcast. We'd love if you participated. Since you are part of the audience, don't be shy. Write to me two questions at Danielanjorge dot com and in the future you'll hear your voice on the podcast.
So think about for a second, how do you think particles carry forth? Here's what p plad to say.
I think technically they carry force by exchanging particles. I know all the matter particles are called fermions, and they exchange force by passing around their boson counterparts. For example, the strong force I think passes around gluons and so the mental model that I have is fermians passing their bosons around, sort of like playing catch. But I'm sure that's not even close to an accurate representation. But it's kind of what I've.
Thought of boson's carry force, because there's a way paint QUI fermions, just in the way light light stings up.
I think particles carry forces by interacting with fields, or they might also carry for by being like a part of them, like shaking in that dimension.
Sort of.
Particles carry force in their pockets, and when they want to transmit a force, they reach into their pocket and they pull out a boson and they lob it at another particle to push it out of the way.
I assume particles carry force through velocity, mass, and spin, and they transfer force as they translate one of those upon interaction with something else.
I thought that the forces were transmitted when the force particles were transferred from one particle to another. But having just listened to your podcast on energy, I imagine the answer is probably just momentum.
All right, A lot of pretty science the answers. Are you also recruiting them for the science force? Is there a pledge to be in the science force.
Did you like the answer where they're pulling bosons out of their pockets?
Yeah?
What's it required? What kind of gadgets do you get?
You get a pocket full of bosons and you set free, go go forth in science.
Nice. Nice, that sounds like it's pocket full of bosons. But anyways, interesting answers from our listeners here. None of them mentioned yoga, doing yoga or Medei Chlorians disappointed. Yeah, step it up, listeners. We have some interesting answers having to do with velocity and mass and colored matter and maybe extra dimensions. So I'll have to explore here. So let's break it down, Daniel, what is the technical definition of a force? Let's start with that.
So all of these explanations in the end are trying to describe things we have experience with. That's what physics does, right, give labels to things and then try to explain them. And so force is something we're familiar with, right, somebody pushes you, or you press down the accelerator in your car. These are things that involve forces. Mathematically, and in physics, we think about a force as anything that changes the momentum of an object. So ball flying through space at the same velocity. There's no force on it. It just continues. If you want to change its velocity, its direction, or its overall momentum in any way, you have to apply a force.
Right.
It also goes back to basically F equals ma a right, like, if you have a mass, something with mass and it's changing its velocity, then there must be a force involved. And that's kind of maybe what you're saying is the definition of it.
Yeah, you can actually even rewrite eth equals ma as the change in momentum, and that really helps you understand the connection between forces and momentum because remember that in our universe, momentum is conserved, so if something has a certain momentum, it's just going to keep that momentum unless you add in momentum from somewhere else. That's what a force is. You have a particle flying through space, you want to change its direction, change its momentum, you have to bring in some external momentum. You have to have another particle come by and give it a push or a pull. That's what the force is. It's the change of momentum of an object.
But the objects ever really change mass, and if they never do, then what's the point of saying momentum, why did you say ef equals?
When things are moving slowly, you can think of momentum as just mass times velocity. But as things approach the speed of light, when they get relativistic, there's another term that creeps in there that changes the relationship between momentum and velocity. They're no longer just linear. Whole episode on the concept of like relativistic mass and whether that makes any sense, And you remember, we decided that the real concept is relativistic momentum. That momentum has a simple relationship with velocity when you're moving slowly, but when you move fast, it's much more complicated, And it's momentum that's really the more fundamental concept. That's the thing that the universe cares about. That's the thing the universe conserves. So it's really sort of the more pure idea is momentum.
So when you say force is a change in momentum, are you also talking about its relativistic momentum.
Yeah.
Absolutely, Relativistic momentum is the more general concept. You only really need it near the speed of light. Mostly, you can use the old classical momentum, which is just mass times velocity and it gets things mostly right. But it is the relativistic momentum that the universe conserves. And that's one way we know that relativity is right, is that it's this relativistic momentum that the universe keeps track of.
I see, right. So then to change your momentum, you can increase it or decrease it. So forces can push and pull.
Right, yeah, exactly. The intuitive description of a force is a push pull. And what happens there is you're changing your momentum. When you hit the brakes on your car, you're changing your velocity. When you hit the accelerator, you're changing your velocity. A change in your velocity is an acceleration, it's a change in momentum, and there's always a force involved there, Like the fastest way to slow down is like hit a brick wall. There, the wall is applying a force on you and your car, changing your momentum.
And it's kind of a weird feature of the universe that it has this conservation of momentum, right, or that you need a force to change you momentum. It could have been that the universe was different, right, It could have been that the universe maybe preferred mass time's acceleration to be conserved, right, Maybe.
Yes, and no, it's not true that we have no idea why the universe conserves momentum. It comes from a deeper symmetry. We know because of Nuther's law, which tells us that every time the universe can serves something, it's because of a symmetry of the universe. In this case, the symmetry of the universe is a symmetry of space itself. The laws of physics are the same at every point in space that momentum is conserved. That step there seems like a big leap, but that's exactly the leap from Nuther's law. I mean Nuther, this mathematician from about one hundred years ago, made this deep realization that there's a connection between symmetry and conservation laws. So this law conservation momentum comes from the fact that space is the same everywhere. And so you're right, it doesn't have to be true that space is the same everywhere in our universe. It seems to be, and that's why we have conservation and momentum. But there could be other universes where the laws of physics change as you move through space, and their momentum would not be conserved.
I feel like you just spend a minute agreeing with me. Awesome, can we agree? Well, this is the universe we live in, and it seems to conserve momentum. And there's several ways that you can do that, right, Several forces that will allow you to change particle's momentum, maybe depending on what kind of particle it is and what its properties are.
Yeah, and so we can take the same concept of a force that applies to your car and applied also to particles. Particles have momentum, and if you want to change your momentum, you have to apply a force. And you're right, there's several ways to do that. We've observed several ways, and again this is just a script. We've noticed several things happen to particles, and we've categorized them as much as we can. We've tried to like weave them together into one concept, but haven't totally succeeded. We call these things the fundamental forces. So there's like electricity and magnetism. Charged particles will push or pull on each other. That's definitely a force. Electrons will change each other's momentum. They'll change their direction entirely. Right, that's a change in momentum. Even if your velocity is the same but your direction is different, it's still a change in momentum.
Mm.
So that's maybe the most familiar force to people like your magnetism. That's basically what keeps our atoms together, right, and our molecules stuck together with the different atoms in it.
Right.
Without the electromagnetic force, it would be a big deal. We would all fall apart, exactly. We all need electromagnetism. So you truly acknowledge the electromagnetic force in like every book or paper you write, because you totally rely on it. That's right, every acceptance speech you give, every thank you card you write.
There you go, Yeah, you sent a holiday card to the electromagnetic force this year.
Now put it on holidays, and thanks again to the electromagnetic force.
Thanks for all the photons. But it's not the only force that's out there. There's another force called the weak force, which US physicists actually have managed to stitch together into one force we call the electro week. But traditionally people talk about the weak force as responsible for like radioactive decay and interactions of neutrinos and stuff like that. So it's sort of a Shyer force.
What does it mean that it's related to radioactive decay? Like when something decays radioactively, the weak force is there to split things apart or to hold things together? What is it doing there?
Lots of radioactive decay can be explained by one kind of quark changing into another kind of quark, and it does so using the weak force. So the weak force can change, for example, like an upcork into a down quirk if you emit a w boson, and the w boson is intimately connected to the weak force, as we'll talk about more later. Without the weak force, that can't happen. And so that's what we mean when we say the weak force is responsible for radioactive decay. It like opens up a channel for this to happen.
But is it pushing or pulling on anything?
That's a tricky question. Can push and it can pull? The whole podcast episode inspired by a question from an organic chemistry professor. But whether the weak force can push and can pull the answer is that it can do both, but it's more complicated than the electromagnetic force.
Well ll right, what are some of the other forces in nature.
So the last thing that's really a force is the strong force. This is the thing that quarks feel, but like electrons don't. Two electrons can pass near each other and not push or pull on each other with the strong force. But quarks or gluons, these things do feel the strong force. They have another kind of charge, the way an electron has an electric charge, which allows it to feel electric fields and electromagnetic force, but neutrinos don't. Quarks and gluons have a color charge. A strong force charge lets them interact using the strong force in a way that electrons just don't. And so that's the last force. And this is the one that holds quarks together into protons and neutrons, and the residual little forces bind those protons and neutrons together into nuclei. So we also rely on the strong force to build our world.
They're all pretty necessary, it seems.
They all have their role to play exactly the top billing to the extras in the back.
What about gravity? Is in gravity also a force.
So we sometimes think of gravity as a force, and we talk about the force of gravity, and Newton describes his force law or gravity. But now we know that gravity isn't actually a force. Things move in a way that makes it look like there's a force there, but that's actually just because they are free falling in curved space. There's no actual change in momentum there. And you can tell the difference between gravity and these other forces. Because gravity doesn't cause a change in momentum. You can't measure acceleration due to gravity.
Wait, what do you mean If I hold a bowling ball above you and I let it go, isn't it going to gain some dangerous momentum for you there?
So if you're falling with the bowling ball and you have like an accelerometer, you're not going to measure any acceleration there. The bowling ball is in freefall, there are no forces.
On it, right, But Pier, it's going to measure a pretty big acceleration, isn't it.
Yeah, Because in that scenario, I'm actually doing the accelerating. I'm accelerating towards the bowling ball. The bowling ball is free fall. The surface of the Earth or my chair or whatever is accelerating me against the natural curvature of space time towards the bowling ball. So that's actually my acceleration due to the structure of the Earth or my rocket ship or whatever that I'm measuring. There's no acceleration there due to gravity.
Wait, so if I drop a bowling ball on you, it's not my fault. You're saying it's your fault.
Yeah, I basically rear ended you.
Yeah. Basically would that work in a court of law? Daniel, can I bring you in as an expert physicist?
I definitely recommend you hire a particle physicists instead of a lawyer next time you're in court. See how that works out. Well, your honor, I want to upend thousands of years of legal tradition.
That's right. Let me bring out some charts here.
And the truth is that Einstein did say something really interesting about this. The equivalence principle that a lot of people have heard about says that any experiment you do is the same whether or not you're in curved space, that you basically can't ever measure locally the curvature of space.
Wait, so, I feel like I'm a little bit confused. So if I drop a bowling ball on you, and you're saying the bowling bob doesn't accelerate due to gravity. You're saying you're accelerating. Your head is accelerating due to the you know, the forces that the ground is pushing up on you with exactly.
So it looks to me like the bowling ball is accelerating towards me, But I'm actually accelerating towards it, I see. And acceleration is not just relative, right, unlike velocity, And velocity's equivalent to say, I'm moving in this speed relative to you, and you're moving in this speed relative to me, But acceleration is not relative. We can both hold accelerometers and we can tell who's being accelerated.
Right. Does that mean that if I'm just sitting here doing nothing, my momentum is changing.
Yeah?
Absolutely, Right now you are being accelerated.
So you're saying my momentum is changing. Yeah, absolutely, even though I'm just sitting here.
Momentum is defined relative to your axis. So you can always define an access in which you're at rest and that doesn't change, and so your momentum is not changing, but that frame of reference is accelerating. So from an inertial reference frame, you are definitely accelerating, but you are not in an inertial reference frame. You're an accelerating reference frame on the surface of the Earth.
So reference frame is like off into space or what.
If you define your reference frame to be you, then you have no momentum and you never will right by definition MM, if you pick some reference frame of a distant observer looking at the Earth, then yes, you are definitely accelerating. You're accelerating against the curvature of space time from the Earth, and you're accelerating against the curvature of space time from the Sun.
I see this requires us to kind of think in space time, not just space.
I don't know that you need space time, but you do have to think about inertial reference frames, ones that are not accelerating and accelerating reference frames.
So then how do you explain the fact that I don't feel like I'm moving?
Why don't you feel like you're moving? If you stand on a scale, you measure something that tells you that there's a force being applied, you're just used to it.
I don't feel like I'm moving.
Motion is relative, right, You can just define a reference frame at yourself and then you're not moving, But acceleration is not. And that's why you can measure it.
I think maybe what you say is you said relativity is complex, and if you sort of think about the curvature space or of space time, then technically even if you're just sitting there changing momentum, if.
You want to dig deep into these questions of general relativity, we had an episode recently about inertial versus gravitational mass that laid it all out in detail. I think the big picture here is that gravity is not a force. It doesn't apply in acceleration the way the other fundamental forces do, at least not in our current understanding of gravity, right.
Right, because some people think maybe gravity is a force, right and there might be gravit conds.
Perhaps there might be in future theories of quantum gravity might change our entire picture of how gravity works.
All right, Well, let's dig into the larger question we're trying to answer here, which is how particles can carry forces for the things that we do call forces for now, I guess, And so let's dig into that how to force particles work? And is that really the picture of how the universe actually is? So let's dig into that. But first, let's take a quick break.
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All right, we're talking about Yoda doing yoga. Now do you think Yoda does hot yoga? Or some other kind of yoga.
I think Yoda's pretty hot already. I don't think he has to do any yoga.
Oh yeah, yeah, you're you're into the ears and the wrinkles.
Well, you know there's also baby Yoda, right for those of you who are interested in the smoother skin. Oh yeah, yeah, he.
Says, like cute yoga, adorable, adorbs yoga. Well, it's hard to keep track of yoga and yoga at the same time. Now, can Yoda drink yogurt doing yoga?
You got me?
Yeah, yo got me? All right. Well, we're talking about how particles can carry force. Do they carry force? What does it mean for a particle to carry force? Because I feel like we're used to forces being just some sort of invisible thing in the universe. It makes us want to go towards something, we're away from something. But I feel like you're saying, physicists have this view where a force, when something's pulling or pushing you, is actually some sort of exchange of particles.
Yeah, this microscopic picture is compelling because it helps connect with our macroscopic understanding, our like intuitive experience of what a force is. And that's basically touching you know, when the brick wall slows your car down, it does so because you hit the brick wall. Or when you slap that baseball into a home run, you do so because the baseball hit the bat, right, And we have this sense that in order to change something's momentum you got to touch it, that it comes from contact, from like literally pushing on something or pulling on something to apply that force.
Well, not necessarily like a magnet, like I think people are familiar with a magnet kind of pushing pulling things without actually touching it.
Yeah, that's a great example. I think that's probably why magnets feel so spooky and weird to a lot of people, because it is action at a distance. Right, it's things pushing and pulling at each other without touching or.
Well, I don't want to get into this again, but you know, reused to gravity making things move towards each other without any kind of contact.
Also, yeah, they're what's happening is you're interacting with curved space.
All right, So then what do you mean by this microscopic view?
Just basically that things feel like they're local. You know, if you want to push on something, you got to touch it, and often when we're telling stories about what's happening in the microscopic scale, when we're trying to tell ourselves a story about the particles rely on our intuition from the macroscopic, from like the big scale stuff. So then the question is, when particles are pushing on each other, are they coming into contact in some way? Is this interaction like a local thing? And that's where the story of two particles exchanging some particle helps us sort of fill in that gap that tells us a local story. Like one particle is flying along and it throws a particle, pulling it out of its boson pocket at another particle which catches it. In that story, everything is always local.
Mm. Yeah, I'm all about eating local and theorizing locally. But maybe let's paint a picture, more concrete picture for folks. Let's say you have two electrons a meter part and according to what we know, they feel that electromagnetic force and they have the same charge, So they're repelling each other, meaning if you just leave it for a while, they're going to move away from each other. Yeap, Okay, So then how is that force being transmitted if they're not touching each other?
Yeah? So there's a lot of different ways to think about it. One story, which I'm not a big fan of, but is a sort of common story you hear, is that they do it by exchanging a particle. That one electron transmits momentum to the other electron basically by shooting a photon at it. Because electrons can emit photons and they can also absorb photons, it's like an interaction that's allowed in the universe. So the story is like, electron one shoots off a photon and in doing so, it recoils against that photon right, maybe it was going straight, now it's going left, shoots that photon off to the right. The other electron, which was going straight, absorbs that photon which was going right, and now it's going right. And so it's sort of like two cars driving in parallel and one of them throws a ball at the other one and some momentum gets carried along with that ball.
Or like if I toss a bowling ball at you, you know, when I toss it at you, I'm going to move back a little bit because it takes some effort to toss it your way, and then when you catch it, you're going to recoil back also a little bit, because the ball had some sort of momentum to it and it pushes you back.
Yeah, exactly the same way you feel a literal recoil when you shoot a gun, and then the target also feels that momentum transfer. Absolutely.
I feel like this view is something that you would get if you were already a little bit familiar with science, right like, if you're take maybe a college little physics course. I don't know, maybe they teach it also in high school. But maybe for the everyday person, this might be a news story that they had never heard before, right Like, maybe to then average person, they're just thinking, well, those two electrons, one of them is exerting a force on the others through the magic of magnetism.
Yeah, and then the question is how do you actually explain that? How do you come up with like a coherent theory that says what's really happening? And one way to do that is to say, oh, these forces are actually being carried by particles, right, because particles are things we know in the universe can carry momentum, and so if you want to push on something or pull on something, you've got to use particles. To carry that momentum. So this is just like a way to try to explain these forces that we see. Maybe what's happening microscopically is that particles are being exchanged. The same way you might wonder like, well, what's everything made out of around me? And you drill in on the tiny details and you discover, oh, the surface of my table is not smooth. It's actually a bunch of particles. I just don't see them because they're so tiny. So maybe the forces between two magnets and the forces between two electrically charged objects are actually particles being transmitted between them. That's sort of how the story goes.
Right, Like if people see me and you moving away from each other, they might think, oh, there's some sort of invisible magical force, but no, really, actually it's because Orhead tossed the bowling ball to Daniel.
Yeah exactly do you have invisible bowling balls? By the way, that sounds pretty cool.
Well, no, it doesn't have to be invisible. Could just be a black bowling ball at night. But I think what you're trying to get at is like this is a view that's maybe popular out there if you consume a lot of science and physics, but maybe this view doesn't quite work. So does it work or not?
It definitely doesn't work for me, and I get the sense that it doesn't work for a lot of people out there because they get a lot of questions about it. People absorb this idea and then they do what we're always telling them to do on this podcast, which is well, think about whether that makes sense. Does it explain other things you see? Can you understand it in other circumstances, does it click together with the other parts of your understanding. And there's a bunch of pretty typical questions that this picture raises and can't really answer. For example, For example, we can tell a nice story about electrons repelling each other by tossing photons back and forth, But how do things attract each other? If an electron and a positron electromagnetism says they should be pulled together, how does an electron or a positron throw a ball at the other one and pull it towards itself. It have to be like a ball with negative momentum somehow.
Yeah, I was about to say that, Why not.
Because if it's negative momentum, it's going the other direction, right.
Is that a requirement? Can I just come over with a magical bowling ball it has negative momentum.
Having negative momentum really makes no sense. It's sort of like having a negative mass or negative length, right. It really just means momentum in the other direction. So if you're gonna throw a ball to the right with negative momentum, you're really throwing a ball to the.
Left right, which would push me towards the you right, And so it would make sense.
But that's not an exchange of particles. Right. Maybe the electron throws off a ball in one direction, the positron throws off the ball in the other direction. They move towards each other. But now you also have these photons, right, and we don't see those photons when electrons and positrons attract, and then there's no exchange there. The electron and positron are not actually exchanging particles there.
Well, I feel like, you know, I'm new to this, so to me, it could all be magical, Daniel, unless you make stuff up. I'm relying on YouTube. Tell me like, no, that's a fundamental law of the universe that you're breaking. So like, let's have a magical bulling ball with negative momentum, and you're you're standing in front of me, so to toss it to you, I actually have to push it back behind me, and then the ball would go towards you, and then when you catch it, it has negative momentum, which would actually pull you towards me. When am I breaking there?
Okay, well then I'll just tell you that that's not allowed. You can't have particles with negative momentum. It just doesn't make any sense.
Hmmm, it says to you, but let's move on.
You just have to me to tell you when you're breaking the rules, you breaking the rules. But there's also other parts of the story that don't really make sense, Like how does the electron know the positron is there? Has it no to admit a photon in one direction to attract the positron?
M Yeah, That's one thing I've always wondered about this picture, is like, does that mean that electrons throwing a photons in all directions all the time and then it just happens to interact, but other elect happens to catch it, then they're going to repel each other.
Yeah, exactly is that what you mean?
Like that doesn't make sense?
That doesn't make sense, and then you would see those photons, right, And if you stick your head between two particles that are supposedly exchanging photons, why can't you see them when magnets are floating above each other? Why can't you see flashes of light there? So there's all sorts of questions that are raised by this particle exchange model that don't really have good answers.
Okay, so this view doesn't seem to make sense. Where did it come from? Who came up with this? And the didn't they think of these things when they came up with it.
They didn't have a cartoonist keeping them in check. That's really the problem.
Yeah, that's really the problem. They're missing their cartoonists in their science force.
Yeah, exactly. Every physicist should have adult supervision in the form of a cartoonist. That's what we're learning today.
But then who supervises a cartoonist? And we're off the rails.
Yoda, I think, yoda. But yeah, where does this come from? It comes from? You won't be surprised to learn the unfortunate naming of another idea. What's really happening here is not that there are literal photons, being exchanged between electrons or electrons and positrons. But there's something else happening. There's an interaction that we describe using the phrase virtual particles and virtual particles. Because it has the word particle in it sounds like maybe it's a kind of particle, but really they're not particles at all.
Which you're saying, like the first person who came up with this idea really meant virtual particles. But then at some point people stop using the word virtual.
Yeah, exactly when it transitions over into popular science, people are like, you know, it's kind of like they're throwing photons back and forth. They're virtual particles, but you can think of them as particles, and that's exactly where it breaks down. If you think of them as particles, they're not really because they don't do all these other things you would expect particles to do.
All right, well, let's dig into what is actually going on virtually and for reals in this universe and see if we can make sense of this picture of what a force is. So to stick into that, but first let's take another quick break.
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All right, we're asking the question how do particles carry force? And there's a view that maybe they exchange force particles. But Daniel, you're saying that actually they're not really exchanging particles. They're exchanging virtual particles, which is kind of like bitcoin.
You know, it's not well, I mean if you say bitcoin is nothing like money, then yes, virtual particles are like bitcoin.
Yeah, there you go. They're not real. They're just like a concept.
I mean, you're going to bring all the crypto bros down on us, dude.
Bring it on.
Yeah.
Maybe maybe they like to fund us in bitcoin or dorsche coin.
Well, we can only pay virtual bills with virtual dollars, so I'm not sure how helpful that is.
I feel like I have a virtual job anyways. But anyway, so explain it to us. What's the difference between a particle and a virtual particle and how to virtual particles create forces?
So what is a particle? Anyway? A particle is actually a ripple in a field, Like what is a real photon. A photon is a ripple in the electromagnetic field. The whole field fills the universe, and a photon is a very regular disturbance in that field. It's a very particular, very special kind of disturbance that's sort of self sustaining. Like you point your flashlight up at Alpha Centauri. Those photons can go across light years and make it to Alpha Centauri. They don't get tired, they don't run out of steam. All that energy is compact in this perfect way. It's sloshing through the electromagnetic fields in this very special, particular way that lets it propagate through the universe. That's what a particle is, So like a very special kind of disturbance in the field that satisfies a bunch of equations for how those field works.
Okay, it's a particle, not like a real object. It's a little ripple, special ripple in a giant cosmic universe spanding field.
Yeah, exactly. Now, a virtual particle is also a disturbance in that field, but doesn't have any of those same properties. Virtual particles are like basically everything else that field can do. If that field is disturbed by the presence of some other particle. Then the field will slosh around and oscillate a little bit, and then that'll die out. And that we can describe as virtual particles if you like, or you can just think about it as oscillations in the field. But virtual particles are basically a way of thinking about what else fields can do other than having particles in them.
Now is the difference said that one is sustainable or sustained and the other one kind of fades away like an electron. It's special in the electron field because it's there and it doesn't go away.
Yeah, exactly. All these fields have equations to describe how they wiggle. The fields are always wiggling. They have kinetic energy, which means they're moving. They have potential energy, which means they have energy of their configuration. It's sort of like a kid on a swing. Right, they're swinging back and forth. And for a kid on a swing, you give them just the right push, they can swing really nicely. Right, if you push them at the right frequency, they can swing in a really nice, regular way. But there's also other crazy things that that swing can do that aren't so nice and self sustaining, like you give that kid random pushes at random times, it's going to get a very chaotic sort of oscillation. So if you wiggle a field in just the right way, you can set up these self sustaining perturbations that will move through space. If you don't do it in just the right way, then they sort of peeter out and the energy dissipates instead of like moving in a little compact blob.
And so virtual particle is any wiggle of the field that is not self sustaining, which is not special like the wiggle that is an electron exactly.
So an electron is a special wiggle and you can see it, you can interact with it, same with a photon. A virtual particle is any other sort of disturbance in the field that fades away really quickly. And there's sort of an argument in particle physics about what's the best way to describe them. Some people think, look, let's just talk about the fields. Everything is a field. Particles are actually wiggles in fields when they interact with each other, that's just fields interacting. Other people like this virtual particle story. They say, no, particles are basic thing, and let's talk about how they interact in terms of virtual particles. So in some sense, virtual particles are just the story we tell ourselves to describe some things that fields can do. But fields are really the more fundamental element of the universe, according to lots of physicists.
Okay, so then it has to do it feels. But then I guess what do you call these particles virtual? They seem as real as the other kinds of particles, like the electron.
We call them virtual for a few reasons. Number one is they don't obey the rules that particles obey. These real particles. They have like the same mass, right, so a real electron always has the same mass, and real photons always have zero mass. These other wiggles in the field, you can try to describe them in terms of a particle like story, but it breaks down because they don't follow the same rules. And so like, what is the mass of this virtual photon? Well, if you try to calculate a mass, you end up with weird numbers. Sometimes they have really huge mass, sometimes it's even negative. It's because it doesn't really apply. You're trying to describe a bowling ball as a car, and you're asking, like, you know, what's it like to drive. Well, it's not really anything like to drive a bowling ball.
Oh, how do you know. I just trying to ask the tough questions here today, Daniel.
No, these are great questions. I love that you can't be flat footed with questions like what is it really like to drive a bowling ball?
I mean for making blanket statements here, but the nature of bowling balls we need to back it up with real science.
The point is that we have these weird disturbances in the field that we can describe mathematically, but they don't have the same behavior as normal particles, and so we can't interpret them in the same way.
Okay, so they're weird wiggles in the field. They're not as as special as the particles. You call them virtual particles. Now, how do they actually transmit a force?
All these fields contain energy, right. An electron is a little pulse in the field, so vibration of the fields. It's an excited state of the field. It has energy. So in this field picture, how do two electrons push on each other? They do so through the electromagnetic field.
So we're talking about multiple fields now, right, So there's an electron field and then there's a photon field, which is the electromagnetic force field. Yes, and you're saying, like, the two electrons are in the same field. Field, they're sharing the same field, but to talk to each other they have to go through another field.
Yeah, that's exactly right. The field doesn't interact with itself. Right. You have these two fields that fill space, the electromagnetic field and the electron field. These are two separate fields, right. For one of them, the excited state of that field is an electron. For the other one, for the electromagnetic field, the excited state of it is a photon.
Right now, why can't they interact within the same field, Like if I have the ocean like a way will interact with another wave.
Some fields will do that, like the strong force. Gluons can interact directly with themselves, but photons can't interact with photons, and electrons can't interact with other electrons.
It's just a weird happenstance of the universe that the electron field can't do that.
That's right. Some fields are allowed to interact directly with themselves, but the electron field doesn't do that. And you might ask why, and it's just description. This is what we've see in the field.
Do okay, So they talked through the photon field, and so what's going on. Where are the virtual particles in the photon field or the electron field.
They're in the photon field. So these are virtual photons. And again they're not real particles. They're like weird disturbances in the field. So electron number one causes a disturbance in the photon field, and it does that all the time, like an electron can't exist without disturbing the photon field. It's doing it all the time. It's constantly interacting with the photon field, and the photon field is constantly interacting with electron fields, like a photon flying through space is constantly interacting with the electron field. It's not like it just sometimes does. And so the electron is causing these disturbances in the photon field. And if those disturbances interact with another electron, then that's effectively momentum transfer from one electron to another through the photon field, which you could also say is the exchange of a virtual photon. But it's not really a particle. It's not a particle you could like see with your eyes or if you put a detector in there, because it's not a real photon. It's just a ripple in the photon field that we call a virtual particle to connect with this story about electrons passing particles back and forth.
But I feel like this all sounds great, but I feel like you just going to run into the same question as you did with the real particles a picture, right, because you might say this is not bowling balls, there's a virtual bowling ball, or it's a tennis ball, but you're still you're still running too the same questions like if I toss a virtual a tennis ball to you, how did I know where you were? And how did you know to catch it? And why am I not shooting tennis balls in all directions? And what if you're a positron and I'm an electron, how do we repel each other? How do we throw a negatively momentum a tennis ball?
Yeah, okay, great questions and we can actually answer all of them now, right, So an electron is constantly creating these ripples in the field. It doesn't have to know that the positron or the other electron is there. It's constantly creating these ripples in the electromagnetic field. That's just what it does. The two fields are constantly interacting, so you don't have to know the other particle is there.
So it's constantly in all directions shooting virtual photons. Yes, where does this energy come from? And wouldn't you be able to see them? It's the same question you have with the photons, right.
Mm hmm. The energy dissipates, right, So virtual photons are not like real particles that you could interact with. It's not like it's shooting a light bulb at Alpha centauri and eventually it will be seen. These fade away really quickly, and if you try to think about them in terms of a particle, it's really just part of the story. There's lots of complicated ripples going on. You can describe them in terms of one virtual photon or two virtual photons or seventeen virtual photons. That's really just an attempt to describe what's happening to the field. But to get back to the question, basically, the two fields are constantly interacting. So if a positron comes by, then the fact that there's an electron there, the electron is affecting the electromagnetic field. That the positron is also constantly interacting with So yeah, basically, you're constantly shooting these virtual particles. Answered the other question, you're like, well, then how do you attract virtual particles? Don't have to obey that law I told you about earlier about what because they're not really particles.
There you go possible, Yes, exactly, He's told me that it was not possible, Daniel, for particles, or.
For bowling balls, or for tennis balls. Particles have to obey that law. Virtual particles are not particles. It feels like a cop out because we're saying, oh, you put virtual on it. You don't have to obey the rules. Like if I'm drigging my virtual car, can I ignore the speed limits. It's not really a particle. It's just a ripple in the field, and these fields can have all sorts of weird ripples in them that don't obey the rules of normal particles, like negative mass or crazy high mass photons. That feels like a contradiction.
So it is like I'm shooting a negative momentum tennis ball at you. Right, that's what you're saying.
Sort of, except that these are not particles, right, They're ripples. They're ripples exactly.
Just like a particle is.
A particle is a special kind of ripple that like satisfies the wave equation of the field. Virtual particles do not satisfy that, and so you can't even ask the question like what is the mass of this thing? There are energy and they are flowing through the field, but they're not particles.
Hmmm.
I feel like you're trying to get me in a technicality here.
Physics is technicalities, man.
But I guess the main question is, so you're saying that if we put the word virtual in front of it, then this whole picture of exchanging particles work. You just have to call them virtual so that they can break the rules of regular particles.
Yeah, but they're not even really particles, right. I feel like it's really misleading to just say, oh, it's a kind of particle. It's not a kind of particle. It's a tot different thing. Virtual particles are kinds of particles the way bowling balls are types of cars.
Well, I see, Really the name should be a non particle ripple.
Yes, exactly. Come up with a better name than virtual particle, because that has misled millions of people.
Now is that the best name for it, a non particle ripple.
I feel like that's confusing because you're still using the word particle.
No, but it's a non particle ripple. It's a ripple. That doesn't mean all the requirements of a particle.
Should I describe my bowling ball as a non car bowling ball?
It causes confusion? Yeah, for sure.
It has nothing to do with cars. I should also describe it as a non banana ball and a non chocolate ball.
Well, no, I mean the difference is that of this virtual particle in this particle have something common, which is that they're both ripples in a field.
Yeah, that's true. Bowling balls and cars both can roll down the road, right, very different things. I feel like you're trying to get me in a technicality here.
No, just trying to understand you're confusing nomenclature here. But I mean, just so we can reach an understanding maybe with our listeners, would you say that a better way to call these things is as non particle ripples in the field, because I feel like that's what you just explain it as.
Yeah, that's definitely better than virtual particles because they're not particles and they are ripples in the field. Yes, there you go.
But some ripples are particles, but those are special and so these are not those kinds exactly.
And we often describe these in terms of virtual particles because we like to think about particles particles are the things we observe. We never see the field directly, right, You never observe a field. You only see the effect of the field on a particle. So a lot of people like to think of the particles as the sort of basic stuff that we're using to describe the universe, and in order to describe how they interactly, think about that in terms of particles. And we draw these cute little finement diagrams that include like little wiggles in the paper that we say are virtual particles. So it's a compelling story, but we should always remember these are not really particles. They're really just different kinds of ripples in a field.
Well, and I mean to be a pain, but it's a little bit like says you, kind of right, Like you're saying that the boundary of the definition of a particle is that it meets all these rules. Now, is that something that's totally accepted by every physicist or would some physicists say, well, I would say any ripple is a particle.
No, I think that's totally acceptable. And also, you can see real particles. You can't ever see virtual particles. They're just a part of the description. This feels very complicated ripples, and you can describe part of it using a virtual particle, but to describe it fully you need like an infinite number of virtual particles. So the virtual particles are just like a component of the story. They're not a real thing in any sense. You can't see or interact with a virtual particle.
Would you sort of see them? When two electrons repel each other, aren't you sort of seeing them?
Not directly? I mean, if you had like a photon counter, you wouldn't register any photons there. You're right, you can see the effect on two electrons. Absolutely well.
You can't see a photon either without interacting with it, right, Yeah, But here.
You're one more step removed. Right here, you're seeing its effect on the electron. You're not even interacting with a photon because you can't because it's not a real photon, a virtual photon.
Now, okay, so then you're saying that forces happen in the universe between two particles with a capital P because they interchange virtual particles or non particle ripples in the quantum field. Yes, does that mean that everything's explained now? That works?
That works. That is a very effective description of how particles interact and allows us to predict what particles will do with extraordinary accuracy, which makes us feel like maybe we got it right.
And in this picture, like an electron is just sitting there in space and it's shooting an infinite number of ripples in all directions all the time.
Well, the two fields are interacting with each other. The electromagnetic field and the electron field are interacting with each other. The energy is kind of going back and forth, right, it's a constant interaction. You can describe that as like the electron creeds virtual photons which it then absorbs, or maybe those virtual photons interact with a passing positron or electron, or you can just think about it as fields sort of pulsing back and forth together.
Oh, I see, there's no like energy being generated. It's like the electron puts some energy into the photon field and maybe that energy doesn't like dissipate, it goes back to the electron, but unless maybe there's another electron nearby, or a positron, in which case some of that energy goes to the other particles. Exactly, all right, that was not a forced conversation at all. He got very real, not virtual.
And somewhere out there in some universe, Yoda is driving his bowling ball down the road and this all makes sense to him on his way to his yoga class.
Hot yoga class. Yes. Now, do you think both Jedis and Sith practice yoga? Or is this something only the Jedi would do?
I wonder if there's dark yoga there you go?
Yeah, evil yoga. All yoga is evil. Maybe what's the other one? Pilates? Maybe pilates is what the Scith practice.
Yeah, forever he will dominate their strenchiness.
That's right? All right? Well, I think this has been an interesting exploration of how physicists view the universe and how particles interact. But again, this is just kind of your view of it, right, Who knows what's really happening underneath?
Yeah, philosophically, this is just a story we tell that explains experiments. Is any of it true? Do the elements of our ideas actually correspond? To real physical things happening out there in the universe. That's for philosophers to decide.
All right, well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us. See you next night.
For more science and curiosity, come find us on social media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Discord, Insta, and now TikTok. Thanks for listening and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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