Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseDaniel and Jorge talk about new ways to find dark matter, using space microwave ovens.
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Hey, Daniel, if you were Dark Matter, where would you hide?
I wouldn't hide. If I was Dark Matter, I would totally parade myself in front of all the scientists in the galaxy.
Ooh, a parade You mean like a pageant queen?
Yeah, something like that. You know, just don't be so shy.
Well, if it turns out you are dark matter, we'll definitely throw you a parade. But so far, it seems like dark matter is kind of reclusive, right, it's kind of shy, so maybe it is hiding. What would be some good spots for it to hide it?
Well, if dark matter doesn't want a tiara and it's hiding somewhere, then I don't know where it would hide. I mean, if I knew, I would go and look for it there.
What if it's somewhere kind of obvious.
Like what like right behind me?
Yeah, or right in front of you or right on TV and the Matter universe contest.
That would be a great twist ending for the m Knight Shamanlan version of this story.
Well, man, do you think he knows I see dark matter?
Hi?
I'm Jorge Mack, cartoonist and author of Allor's Great Big Universe.
Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I wish I had a dark matter tiara.
Oh, but it wouldn't be very shiny or bright. It would be dark, So what's the point. Also, when it it just fall through your head.
It would be hard to wear, but it'd be like the greatest, most amazing piece of jewelry.
Ever, how would you even keep it in your house?
These are just like engineering details.
You know.
Once I've solved the physics of a dark matter Tiara, I'll just pass that off to the engineers.
This is just all part of your dream to be the universe's darktor universe.
I would like a little bit of bling. Yeah, you know, physics bling would be nice. I'm not gonna win a Nobel Prize anytime soon, So dark matter Tirres sounds good. I see.
I see. You could just say you have a dark matter Tierra, and they know nobody would be able to see it, or feel it or detect it. They would just have to believe you.
I need evidence, man, That's what science is all about. You got to have data.
I don't think those beauty contests depend on data very much.
But I'm trying to win a science contest.
But anyway's welcome. Podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio in which we enter you in.
The greatest science contest of all time, the quest to understand the nature of the universe. What is it, what's in it? What's it made out? Of how does it all work. We think these questions are deep and fundamental parts of being a human being in this cosmos, and unraveling these questions is a joy that everybody should share. So on this podcast we take those questions apart and try to share our answers and our ignorance with you.
That's right, because science is the greatest beauty contest in the universe. We're the goal is to discover the beauty of how this universe is put together, how it works, and what is our place in it.
Over the last fifty one hundred years, we've developed a pretty good sense for what's in the universe. We know about stars and galaxies and all the bright and shiny stuff that's out there in the universe. And we've also figured out that there's a lot of the universe that we can't see directly using our senses or any of the forces that we've discovered except for gravity. We know that a huge chunk of the stuff that's out there in the universe is invisible. It's intangible, which makes it very hard to discover and to figure out how to make it into a tiara.
Yeah, because it turns out that a pretty good understanding of the universe only covers about uh five percent of what we know is out there. The rest, the ninety five percent of the universe that we know is there, we have no idea what it is or how it works.
That sounds like a good title for a book.
Yeah, I think we wrote one, Daniel, which is available for us sale everywhere.
That's right. The kind of stuff that you and I are made out of, atoms specifically, or what physicists called baryons, only makes up five percent of the energy budget in the universe. There's another twenty five twenty seven percent that's dark matter, some kind of stuff that we know is matter. We know it's out there, but we don't know what it is, and we only have a very rough sense of even where it is around us. The rest of the universe is something we call dark energy, which is contributing to the accelerating expansion of the universe, and we have even less clue about what makes that up.
Yeah, there's a lot we don't know, and it seems like these are maybe the defining mysteries of our times is to figure out what the universe is actually made out of. Given that what we're made out of counts is so little of it.
Yeah, you're right, And in the last few decades there's been a huge program of people looking for dark matter. We've talked on the podcast about trying to make dark matter in the laboratory by smashing particles together. We're searching for the dark matter wind. We might be floating through with very sensitive underground facilities looking for an individual piece of dark matter to bump into liquid xenon, for example, or maybe evidence of dark matter annihilating itself in the center of the galaxy. But so far, none of these experiments have found dark matter, which means we've got to get creative about other ways to maybe detect this most important or at least most common kind of matter in the universe.
So to be On the podcast, we'll be tackling the question could quantum clocks detect dark matter? And how many jargon words can we fit into one podcast title?
I know it does sound like buzzword sound, you know, like could we use AI generated crypto bitcoin to detect dark matter?
You mean quantum nano matter, Yes, exactly, quantum nano matter.
Tiras Wow, I like quantum nanomatter. I'm going to use that in a proposal.
That's good, that's said Daniel. Also, it's probably our on sale on Amazon. There's probably some product out there with that name.
So yeah, but you didn't say ching tm after it, so I can use it.
No, you don't have to.
What I gotta brush up on my podcast property law.
Yeah, you better or else I'm gonna see you for nano dollars for nano bitcoins, you know what?
Or hey, you can have all of my nano bitcoins.
What's the price of bitcoin these days?
Nano bitcoins zero? Yeah, doesn't exist.
But anyways, it's kind of an intriguing title. Could quantum clocks detect dark matter and quantum clocks sounds like it does sound like something you could buy an off of Amazon. Did you check to see if it's something you can just get next day?
Oh?
Yeah, it turns out Amazon will sell you something it calls a quantum clock, like a quantum entanglement led wall clock. But none of these things are actually quantum clocks the way that we understand them.
Well, technically, isn't everything a quantum something? Well, I mean not everything, but you know the five percent that we know about in the universe, it's in it all quantum technically, like this is a quantum podcast.
I mean, that's a really interesting philosophical question and not one that we really have an answer to, because on one hand, you're right that everything is made out of quantum particle, so isn't the whole universe quantum. On the other hand, we know that when you zoom out things behave by different rules. We call that classical. We don't really understand why there is that transition, but there definitely is a transition. So to call everything quantum is either to say that look classical is just big zoomed out quantum, or is to say that clackical doesn't really matter, which doesn't really sit well with me. Or what if I have no class, then you probably have a lot of big coin.
Then I'm not gonna win any beauty contest. I have poise, but just no class.
Yeah, exactly. But you know, for example, a clock that just works on mechanical parts would also work in the universe where QUANTUMU didn't rule the microscopic because it's not sensitive to those microscopic details, and so that wouldn't be a quantum clock. For example, like a pendulum clock or an old fashioned Swiss gear based.
Clock a discussion about now mankla Sure that's my favorite.
Hey you brought it up.
But anyways, it's a kind of an interesting question and so we'll dig into it. But as usual, we were wondering how many people out there have thought about putting the concepts of dark matter and quantum and clocks all together in one sentence.
So thanks very much to everybody who participates in this segment of the podcast. We love that you volunteer, We love hearing your thoughts, and we love sharing your voice with all of the other listeners. Please chime in if you'd like, write to me two questions at Danielanjorge dot com and you can't participate.
So think about it for a second. Do you think quantum clocks can be used to detect dark matter? Here's what people had to say.
I've never heard of a quantum clock, but I'm not sure how it would be able to detect dark matter anymore than a regular clock could. I guess maybe even with a regular clock, you could send it out into space, and if it hits a huge clump of dark matter and therefore gravity, maybe we could learn that there's a big well of gravity out in some location that we otherwise couldn't detect.
Not so sure.
I suppose it's possible, but I have no clue how it would Maybe something to do with entanglement.
Since you're asking, the answer is probably yes, but maybe still theoretical. I would think you'd have to use the idea of measuring light passing through an area of more density, thus possibly dark matter that causes curvature of space and also time dilation. How to do that, I'm not sure.
Since we don't possess a quantum clock, it doesn't seem unreasonable to suggest that a non existent clock cannot detect dark matter.
All right, it's pretty uh intense answers here. I feel like it's something that some of the listeners had heard about before. Did you pull your professor colleagues this time?
No, these are our listeners online. You know. There's some good answers here about entanglement and light passing through areas with dark matter density in them, and just in general sense that this is a hard problem.
Maybe you should ask a bunch of beauty queens next time, or make it one of the standard questions in a beauty pageant. Forget howdy, how would you save the world? Or how would you know make things better? What do you think about quantum clocks?
Well, where is the dark matter? Yeah, I'd love to hear that answer in the beauty pageant.
Not that it couldn't happen, of course, no, absolutely. All right, Well, let's dig into this intriguing question of whether dark matter can be detected by quantum clocks, and let's start with the basics. Daniel, what do we know about dark matter?
So there's a lot that we do and do not know about dark matter. So let's start with what we do know. We know that it's out there, and we know that it's here as well. We know that dark matter is something that exists in the universe. And then it's matter. We know that because we see its gravity. We see it holding galaxies together as they spin. There isn't enough gravity from the stars and the gas and dust that make up those galaxies to keep the stars in place as they swirl around the center of the galaxy at very high speeds, and yet they do stay in place. Galaxies are mostly not throwing stars out into intergalactic space, and so we infer that there must be some matter there to hold that galaxy together. But it's more than just that one inference, that one fudge factor to make that particular equation work. We see evidence for dark matter all over the history of the universe, from the very first few moments when the early universe plasma is slashing around and you have dark matter and normal matter and photons all acting very differently and creating different slashing patterns. From looking at that slashing in the cosmic microwave background radiation, we can figure out that there was dark matter and even measure how much of it there is, and we can trace the history of dark matter's gravity as it shapes the structure formation of the whole universe why we have galaxies at all this early in the history of the universe, And so dark matter is definitely out there as a kind of matter, but we don't know really what it is or very specifically where it is, because it's so hard to see since it only feels gravity. It doesn't feel any of the other forces that we've discovered.
And we can also sort of see dark matter right like, we can see it in the same way that you can see a lens or glass lens or example. You can see how it distorts the light behind it, right.
Yeah, exactly. We can see dark matter through gravity, and so that means we can see stuff bending around dark matter. We can see it holding galaxies together, and that even impacts how light moves in the vicinity of dark matter. If you have a big blob of dark matter between you and some distant galaxy, for example, the photons from that distant galaxy will bend as they move through that dark matter, creating apparent distortions in your image. You can even sometimes see the same galaxy twice in the sky because of this gravitational lensing. And so we know that it's out there, and we can use some techniques like that to sometimes tell roughly where it is. But because dark matter is so weak it's particles only feel gravity, we think it's very difficult to figure out what exactly is made out of to isolate one piece of dark matter, because gravity is so weak that essentially a particle's gravity is almost impossible to measure.
Yeah, and dark matter is also something that's not just out there in space. It's sort of like all around us, right like it's floating through us right now, sort of like the fourth you know, it flows through us, binds us all together. It's made out of medtichlorians.
Perhaps perhaps, yeah, exactly, you'll only really understand it after nine hundred years of study. That's a really good question, and that's sort of the central question of this episode is exactly where is the dark matter? And can we find like concentrations of it? Can we map it out? Because dark matter is so weakly interacting like only gravity, it takes huge amounts of it to feel anything, and so that makes it very hard to tell exactly where the dark matter is. It might be that it's mostly spread out evenly through the galaxy. It might be more clumpy than that depends a lot on your particular theory of dark matter. Where it exactly is. So it could be that we are in a dark matter wind as the Earth orbits the Sun and the Sun moves through the galaxy. We could also be in a dark matter liss bubble, a bubble of space in which there's comparatively little dark matter. Or it could be that dark matter is fairly dense in our area.
You know, I have to say, every time you say dark matter wind, it makes me think of dark parts.
Elevating the discourse every week.
That's my job. That's why I'm here.
Smells.
It's all grounded or grounded or you know, flat as in fletch wents. But anyways, so it's sort of all around this, and I guess I'm wondering, like, if it is all around us, would we be able to tell, Like, you know, if let's say dark matter is flowing through the Earth right now, or say it wasn't, would you be able to tell the difference.
That's exactly what these experiments are trying to measure. And to give you a sense of the difficulty the challenge of this, think about like why we didn't discover dark matter earlier, just in studying how our Solar system moves. We have now very precise measurements of the orbit of Jupiter and Mars and all the planets and all the little pieces of the Solar System as they orbit the Sun. You might think, hey, if dark matter is here in our Solar system and it has gravity, wouldn't it change the way those things orbit? Shouldn't we be able to detect it? But because we think dark matter might be spread very thin, probably there isn't that much dark matter in the vicinity of our Solar system. So even those very very precise measurements you know, like knowing the motion of Jupiter to meters or centimeters, can't detect dark matter because it would be very thin and very spread out and mostly we think homogeneous, which in the end doesn't give much gravitational pull on the objects in the Solar System. So it takes a very specialized, highly sensitive device to be able to detect this dark matter.
Yeah, and then don't we say once like, if you take all the dark matter that is potentially floating through the Earth right now, it would only weigh about as much as a squirrel or something like that.
Yeah, exactly, though that's very speculative, right. That assumes that dark matter is essentially equally spread out in our galaxy, which we don't believe is true. But if you assume that there is, then we know our galaxy, for example, is ninety five percent dark matter. That means for every kilogram of matter made out of atoms like hydrogen and helium or whatever, there's nineteen kilograms of matter made out of whatever dark matter is made out of. And so it's like nineteen to one in our galaxy.
Which sounds like a lot, but I guess also galaxies kind of very empty mostly right, like it's probably like ninety nine percent empty.
Yeah exactly. Now, normal matter clumps up a lot, right, Like the Sun is an extraordinarily dense collection of normal matter. Normal matter is not spread evenly through the galaxy. But if you take dark man and spread it evenly through the galaxy, you get a pretty small density. It's like ten to the twenty six kilograms per cubic light year, which is a huge volume, which means it's like ten to the negative twenty two kilograms per cubic meter. So then if you add up all the cubic meters in the Earth, that adds up to about two thirds of a kilogram of dark matter inside the volume of the Earth. Again, assuming that dark matter is evenly spread throughout the galaxy, which it probably isn't, but it might be.
Roughly, which is about the size or mass of a squirrel.
Yeah exactly, So one squirrel of dark matter inside the volume of the Earth compared to you know, the many, many millions and billions of kilograms of normal matter inside the volume of the Earth. That sounds the importance of clumping, right, Because normal matter clumps together, it's gravity is much more powerful. In our local neighborhood, than dark matter. Even though dark matter outweighs normal matter by nineteen to one, if it's much more thinly spread out, the local effects of its gravity are much harder to detect.
I think maybe what you're saying is that dark matter, in terms of the universe scale, it mostly hangs out in galaxies. Like you don't see a lot of dark matter floating out there on its own between galaxies.
Yeah, we can do really precise measurements of where dark matter is on the galaxy scale, because galaxies are really really big. If we can tell how galaxies are orbiting around each other, just the way we can tell how stars are moving through the galaxy, so enormous clumps of dark matter, absolutely, we can measure their gravity. But when you zoom in in a really fine grained way and want to say, hey, is there a moon sized blob of dark matter anywhere in our solar system, that's a tough question to answer.
So then within the galaxy, you're saying, like, there's a lot of dark matter within our galaxy. Ninety five percent of the mass of our galaxy is dark matter, And what does it look like. Does it look like, you know, an intense dense ball of dark matter in the middle, is it evenly distributed? And also, like our galaxy looks like a disc sort of like a flat disk, is dark matter also shaped like a flat disk.
So we have the best answers the more we zoom out, and then as we zoom in things get literally funny. But on the scale of the galaxy we have some ideas. We think that dark matter is like a big halo. So imagine the visible galaxy right the edge of the stars. Dark matter is a big halo that goes out beyond the visible stars, and it's bigger and fuzzier. It hasn't collapsed the way normal matter has because it just doesn't clump right. In order to clump, things need other kinds of interaction other than gravity. Like if you have two dark matter particles they attract each other gravitationally and then just passed right through each other. They're just gonna zig and zag back and forth oscillate forever. They're not going to clump together. To do that, you need like electromagnetism or the strong force or something that wants to grab onto each other. So dark matter stays a big puffy halo and the galaxy is sort of embedded in that halo, and that's not a coincidence. Right. The reason the galaxy exists is because of a big dark matter blob there that's gathered together all the hydrogen helium gravitationally and made it into a galaxy. It's the reason we have stars, etc.
Now, when you say halo, you don't actually mean like an angel's halo that looks like a ring. You actually mean just like a blob, right.
Yeah, exactly, like a big fuzzy blob that extends out further along the disc and then further above and below the disc. But even that we know already is not evenly distributed.
Is it like football shaped? Is it kind of flat? Or is it a perfect sphere.
It's more like a hockey puck, right, It's flat, but not as flat as the galaxy itself.
What made it flat?
Yeah, maybe a hockey puck is the wrong analogy. It's not quite that flat. It's more like a big ellipsoid.
You mean like a slightly squished ball.
Yeah exactly. It's like a big basketball that somebody's sitting on or something.
All right, Well, let's get a little bit more into the details of what we know about dark matter, how much of it can we see, how much can we discern about what it's doing in our universe? And we'll answer the question of whether you can use a quantum clock from Amazon dot com to detect it. So we'll get to those questions, but first let's take a quick break.
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All right, we're asking the question can you use quantum clocks to deteg dark matter? And we've been recapping a little bit about what we know about dark matter, Daniel. How much of the details of it can we see?
Not really very much. We have this sense of a big, fuzzy halo that surrounds the galaxy, and we can also measure the density as a function of distance from the center. So if you're a star, for example, orbiting the center of the galaxy, the speed at which you orbit depends on the force that's holding you in that orbit. So the stronger the force, the faster you can go, or the faster you can go, the stronger the force that's needed to hold you in that orbit. So by measuring the speed of a given star, we can essentially measure the mass of all that stuff that's holding on to that star. So then if you look at stars at different distances from the center, you can basically map out the density of stuff in the galaxy as you go further and closer to the center of the galaxy.
Like, if dark matter was super condensed in the middle of the galaxy, then the stars in the galaxy we'd be rotating a certain way. Or if the dark matter was more spread out then the stars in the galaxy we'd be rotating in a different way.
Yeah, exactly, if all the dark matter in the galaxy was at the center, then everything would act in a certain way, would just go like one over are squared. It's sort of like the way the Solar system orbits the Sun. But if you take some of that mass and you spread it out through the galaxy instead, then the dark matter that's further out than a given star doesn't affect its orbit because it's gravity all cancels out. So that changes the rotation speed of those stars, and that's in fact how we first discover dark matter. Was by looking at these rotation speeds of stars around the center of the galaxy and seeing that we couldn't explain it by mapping all the mass from the stars and the gas and the dust. And that's exactly how you can tell where you need to add more mass to explain these rotation speeds. It's not just like, hey, add a big blob of the center. You need to add some of the center and also some further out and some further out, and so precise measurements of those velocities give you a fairly accurate picture of where the dark matter is in the galaxy. And it's not evenly spread out. It's more densely clumped at the center, which is something you'd.
Expect because it is affected by gravity, right.
It is, in the end affected by gravity, and so it's pulled itself together. And the whole reason that this exists is because of some like early universe perturbation where you had a denser blob of dark matter that created this whole well, gathered together the other dark matter and created this over density which then pulled in hydrogen, helium and whatever was around to make a galaxy. So it's a little bit denser at the center, though it's not very well understood, like if we do calculations simulations to describe what we think should happen. If you have a bunch of dark matter and you give it a few billion years to fall together and to form some structure, it describes what astronomers call a cusp, which means like a point of high density of the center and then very steeply falling should like drop off quickly. But if you go out and measure the actual distributions of stars velocities, you see something that looks like a bigger core. It's not like it's pointing near the center. It's more spread out in the inner galaxy. It's like flatter, and so this is not something we understand very well. And it also gives you a sense of like the scale of which we can figure this stuff out. We're talking about over light years distances, right, We're not resolving dark matter in meters or even in aus with very very coarse ways to measure where the dark matter is again, because its gravity is so weak.
Are you saying like the beginning of the universe, dark matter was more evenly spread out, like you know, all those light years of empty space between US and Andromeda and other galaxies was all filled with dark matter, and then it all colleutes through certain clusters.
Yeah, it definitely gathered itself together. The early universe had initial density fluctuations, and that's a whole big question about where exactly that came from. And then those seated gravity to pull things together. So gravity does form structure, but it takes time. And so yeah, dark matter was more spread out and now it's less spread out.
Why would dark matter stay stuck together?
Well, it's not that dark matter is sticking together. It's not like it's bonded to itself. And again we don't really know because we don't have a microscopic picture of the dark matter. But I think you're asking, like, why does dark matter form even gravitational structures? Like why does it get more dense in some places and then in others? Is that what you're asking?
Yeah, Like I'm imagining at the beginning of the universe there's a bit of dark matter that was, you know, let's say, ten light years away, and then it got attracted to our galaxy, so it flew over here. But then why didn't just keep flying to the other side.
Yeah, So as that distant piece of dark matter approaches the galaxy, it gains velocity. Right, it's exchanging gravitational potential energy for kinetic energy. And then you're imagining like the way a ball rolls down a valley, why doesn't it roll back up the other side? And it will, yes, but then it comes back right, And so gravity in the end is organizing something. There's the second piece to that, which is that it doesn't completely roll back up the other side. You know, anything that's accelerating is emitting gravitational radiation for example. So the reason, for example, two black holes orbiting each other will eventually spiral in and collapse is that they're emitting gravitational energy. So none of these things are really stable. So over long periods of time, even without inelastic interactions like electromagnetism or whatever, these things will form very large structures and they will gradually collapse due to gravitational radiation.
All right, so we kind of have a fuzzy picture of where it is in the universe. So now the question of the episode is can we use quantum clocks to detect dark matter? How do quantum clocks fit into this?
So quantum clocks might give us a sense for where the dark matter is if we can find a place where it's like clumpy, if we can find a place in our solar system where it's like gathered together for some reason. And that would be really cool, because not only would it help us detect what dark matter is, but it would help us understand where it is. It's a really deep mystery. I think, not just because we want to understand dark matter, but because we want like a map. You know, humans are visual creatures. We want to know like where the stuff is, and just not knowing where dark matter is in the universe really bugs me. So I would love to know where it is, and understanding its map on a finer scale would be really helpful. And quantum clocks might be able to help us map where dark matter is if we can send them out into space and if they're sensitive to dark matter, if their operation changes as they pass through dark matter.
Okay, I think you're saying that you know, at the galaxy level, we know that it looks like a big blob. It's sort of like a switch ball. It's sort of more intense or more dense in the center of the galaxy. But I think maybe you're saying, can we know in finer detail what it looks like between stars within the galaxy, like is it clumpy, is it chunky, or is it like peanut butter.
Smooth exactly, And people have tackled this problem in the past, Like people use the technique you mentioned gravitation lensing to look for blobs of dark matter, and that works, and it's powerful, but only if you have like a really nice galaxy behind the blob of dark matter that can show you that it's there, so that tells us a little bit about the dark matter density. But there aren't like galaxies in all the right places to like X ray the whole Solar system and figure out where it is. And that technique isn't always powerful enough. You need like a really big blob of dark matter. Another technique people have used is to look for dwarf galaxies. Essentially, our galaxy is formed by the combination of lots of galaxies, right, we think galaxies formed kind of small and then grew together with all sorts of absorptions and collisions. That means that our galaxy has other like mini galaxies embedded within it. Some of these we call dwarf galaxies because they're small, and we think they're like very high dark matter density therew stars, and so we can look at the motion of the stars inside those little galaxies to get sensors for like where those blobs are. But we don't have a great way to like X ray the Solar System and figure out, like where is the dark matter in our Solar system? Is it hanging out by Jupiter? Is it spread evenly like peanut butter? What's going on?
You want to know it's distribution at the Solar system scale exactly.
That's what I want to do. And I read a recent paper which was very clever, which is looking at asteroids and trying to track asteroid trajectories and see if like tiny little deviations in the trajectory of asteroids or comets as they move through the Solar System could reveal the presence of dark matter. It's very difficult to do because if dark matter is evenly spread out or only a little bit clumpy, that'd be basically no effect on those asteroids. But it's the kind of thing that we're just on the verge of being able to potentially do now that we have better measurements and better computational tools to try to like infer this information from really specific measurements.
All right, So then how would you use a quantum clock to deteg dark matter?
So when we talk about a quantum clock, really what we mean is something which is based on fundamental quantum mechanical principles. And you know it sounds fancy, but even just like an atomic clock, is a quantum clock. An atomic clock is something that looks at like the oscillation of electron between two energy levels and a caesium atom, which is a very precise, very very regular process that we can use essentially to tell how time has passed, and so on Earth, we have extraordinarily precise atomic clocks which now set the standard and in fact define what we mean by a second. A second used to have a different definition, but now a second is defined as like a certain number of cycle of a specific kind of atom. That's literally how we measure time now, and so it's the standard.
It's like the minute, like it used to be like a minute with sixty seconds, but now people say, oh, it's been a minute to really mean something totally different.
Yes, it's just like that exactly, and we call it a quantum clock because this really is a quantum process we're talking about quantum particles. There's an electron, there's an atom. The electron is moving in the potential well of the atom, so it's interacting electromagnetically with the nucleus. And the way that it's moving, the way it oscillates between energy levels, is completely controlled by quantum processes. This is not a clock that you could have in a perfectly classical universe. You know, if we lived in a universe where electrons really were tiny little balls that went to orbits and had smooth classical paths the way planets do, then this clock could not exist. And so that's when we meet by quantum clock.
But I guess, if it's a quantum clock, doesn't it have a certain amount of uncertainty to it or unknowability? How can it be precise if there's the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.
Yeah, you're right, there's no absolutely precise quantum clock. But this is about as regular as it gets. And amazingly, these quantum clocks are more precise than mechanical clocks, which of course also have uncertainty in them, because no mechanical device is perfect created, right, And so this is as accurate as they've been able to make them, and recently they've been even able to make them small and transportable. You might think of an atomic clock as like some huge device in the basement of a laboratory in Colorado that weighs like ten tons and fills a room. But actually these things can be made quite small.
So a quantum clock is really just an atomic clock or is there another kind that doesn't use atoms?
There's no atomic clock that's not a quantum clock. So quantum clock is just a fancier sounding name for atomic clock.
Yes, can you have a quantum clock that maybe doesn't use an atom, that maybe just relies on electrons or quarks or something.
Yeah, sure, you're not limited to atoms. You can imagine quantum clocks made out of like photons interacting or splitting or bouncing or something like that. In some sense, lego is a clock because it's measuring the time for photons to travel along its legs, right, it's just converting that to a distance measurement. And so you could have other quantum clocks that are not based on atoms. Yes, And one day, when we discover dark matter, maybe we could build a clock out of dark.
Matter, which may or may not tell you the time.
And may or may not smell like flatulence.
Well, I guess maybe give us an example of, like what's a typical or popular or a commonly used quantum clock and how does it work.
Well, the most precise quantum clock is based on the caesium one thirty three atom. That's the one that's actually used to define what a second is. And so here we have two states of electrons. There's a small splitting in an energy in state here. It's called a hyper fine splitting because the difference is very very small, and when the electron sits in there, it sort of goes back and forth between the two different states.
Meaning like, this is an electron that's orbiting around the caesium atom.
Yeah, I wouldn't say orbiting if we want to be really really technical, But it's captured by the caesium atom.
And you're saying it's switching energy levels. Why would it switch energy levels?
So you have this caesium atom and you embed the whole thing in some microwave radiation that can lift those electrons up from the lower state to the higher.
State, meaning you like put it in a microwave or you shoot it with it like a light gun.
There's not a difference, right, that's what a microwave is. A microwave is shooting microwave radiation at your food, and microwaves are lights. Though basically a microwave is a light gun.
Sounds hot. So then you have this atom and you you stick it in the microwave.
Uh huh, yeah, So you stick in the microwave and you measure how often it jumps up and then down and then up and then.
Down because the light, as the light passes through it, it knocks the electron up and down or what.
Yeah, the light is tuned to exactly the frequency for the electron to jump up into the higher energy level. Remember, electrons can go from a lower to a higher energy level if a photon of the right energy comes along. So they've tuned this microwave to exactly that energy level. So electrons and the lower level can absorb these photons jump up to the higher level. But then they'll naturally decay down because the universe likes to spread energy out and so the time of these oscillations turns out to be very very regular, Like an electron will do this nine point one nine two billion times per second.
And it doesn't depend on the frequency of the light, or it does.
It definitely depends on the frequency of the light. If the frequency of the light is not correct, then it won't even absorb it, right, it won't happen.
Oh, but then don't you need to make that frequency super precise?
Yeah, exactly, And this is one source of uncertainty in these clocks, right, making those accurate. And you can measure these things, like you build two independent ones, you can see how their counts drift relative to each other. And that's how you measure the accuracy of clocks. In general. There's no absolute standard by which you can tell like, oh, this clock is off or that clock is off. You just build a few of them and you measure them relative to each other. And this is something that we know well enough. We know how to design the mean of the physics and the engineering that you can build these things so that atomic clocks in independent locations agree to zero point three nanoseconds per day. It's really very incredibly precise.
WHOA, so what are you measuring? How are you measuring whether these electrons are going up and down?
When the electron goes back down. It emits radiation, right, and so you can gather that as well.
Like it shoots off light like an a blink.
Basically exactly little flash.
All right. So then, and you're saying you can build these things now to be the size of a toaster or a microwave oven.
A quantum toaster. They have them now and they've deployed them out in space. They actually built the Deep Space Atomic Clock Mission and they sent an atomic clock out into space to see, like, hey, can we operate one of these things out in space? And you might wonder like is this just a bunch of nerds trying to do something that seems cool? Yes, is always the answer.
Like can we shoot a microwave into space and will it still heat up my burrito? My season Burritoah? Is that the challenge?
That's the challenge. But also if we want to do things like navigate in space, navigation needs timing. You need to know like how long you're going in one direction. If you want to do dead reckoning, you want to know where you are. Timing is absolutely crucial. Or if you want to use like nearby pulsars to triangulate your position, I have whole episode about how that works. You also need very accurate timing so you can measure the time between the pulses. So this was like a technological challenge that's going to lay the groundwork for all sorts of cool innovations, and this was totally successful in this deep space atomic clock mission.
Well, let's get into how you would actually use these and how the timing might tell you where dark matter is within our Solar system and maybe even within the Earth. So let's dig into that. But first, let's take another quick break.
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All right. We're talking about using a microwave stuck inside of a microwave to the tech dark matter so you can win a Tierra for being the prettiest scientist.
Exactly does it take longer to heat up your burrito when there's dark matter around?
So the idea is that you take these atomic or basically an atomic clock, which is a quantum clock. But it seems like the most popular ones use atoms, and so you shrink them down to the size of a toaster or microwave, and then you shoot them in space. And then how does that help you measure dark matter?
Well, there were a bunch of physicists who thought, Okay, this is cool because now we not only have all some super precise atomic clocks, but now we have them spread out through the Solar system, like in principle the way we like scent devices near the Sun with a Parker solar probe. People are like, what if we built a bunch of these things and we spread them out in the Solar system? Could they give us a picture of where the dark matter is in the Solar system? If they operate differently when there's dark matter around, like if they're sensitive to the dark matter density, Like if your atomic clock gets off if it drifts when there's more or less dark matter around, than having a bunch of these atomic clocks spread out through the Solar system could give you a picture for where in the Solar System the dark matter is.
But I guess what's the mechanism by which dark matter would affect the timing of these clocks.
Yeah, so mostly it wouldn't For many theories of dark matter. Dark matter is just some whimp. It's a massive particle that only interacts gravitationally, and so it has essentially no effect on these clocks except for gravitational time dilation. We know the areas with greater mass have more curvature, and a curvature causes time dilation, but that would be very, very difficult to measure even with these quantum clocks.
But wait, why would it be difficult.
You can measure gravitational time dilation with quantum clocks, and we've done that. You can do it on the surface of the Earth, for example, and you can put a quantum clock one meter above another one and you can see the difference between them because one of them is deeper in the curvature than the other. Super duper awesome, but that's because the Earth has a huge amount of gravity and this significant curvature. Here. Dark matter doesn't contribute significantly to the curvature because it's pretty spread out. And we would already know if dark matter wasn't pretty spread out, because we would have seen deviations and like Jupiter's orbit and whatever. So in principle you can, but we don't think it's going to be very sensitive. If you had a lot of quantum clocks and there were much more sensitive, then you could probably detect dark matter local density variations using that principle.
Meaning these clocks would tick at a different frequency depending on how close it was to big sources of mass or even light sources of mass, because that's just how relativity works.
Yeah, that's how relativity works. Remember, in relativity, it is two kinds of time dilation. One is based on speed. If you see a clock moving quickly, then you see it ticking slowly, and that's very confusing because it's relative, and so it depends on two observers. But there's another kind of time dilation, gravitational, which is absolute. It just says anybody in curature their clock is going to tick slowly, no matter who's looking at it, and everybody's going to agree about whose clock is ticking slowly. So that's very powerful and that's something you can use to measure just like how much stuff is there in general, because clocks tick slower near stuff. Really kind of awesome feature of.
The universe, meaning like if I had two of these atomic clocks and one of them is out there in the middle of empty space, and the other one is near a big blob of dark matter. The one near the blob of dark matter would take slower.
Right, Yeah, that's exactly right.
And so you might like start them out in the same spot. But then after being for a while and two different spots, one near the dark matter, and you brun them back, you would see that one of them take more ticks than the other.
Yeah. And so now imagine like a grid, you have a quantum clock every ten meters in the solar system, right, you start them all out at the same time, and then you monitor it, and by measuring the difference in that number of ticks after a year on your reference clock, the one that's hanging out with you, you can tell where stuff is in the solar system.
Like which spots in the solar system have slower time.
Yes, exactly, because slower time means more matter, more curvature, more energy density.
Really, I guess, on top of what you already know about the Solar system right like right now, even if we didn't have dark matter, a clock near the Sun would takes lower than a clock here exactly.
And we've done some basic version of this, as I said earlier, if a few clocks on Earth at different altitudes. Those are different distances from the matter of the Earth, and the ones closer do ticks more slowly, And satellites up in space their clocks tick faster than atomic clocks here on the surface of the Earth, And you've got to take that new account famously when you're doing GPS, et cetera.
But you're saying, we're not going to be using this effect, this time dilation from relativity to measure dark matter. Dark matter is just too weak.
Dark matter is too weak, and we think it's not cluppy enough to really detect that, though it would be super awesome. There's a special kind of dark matter which might give much larger effects, which would be much easier to discover. And this is a theory called fuzzy dark matter.
Sounds fuzzy. But wait, so you're saying, like this idea of using atomic clocks to measure dark matter would only work for a certain theoretical meaning guessie type of dark matter, which we don't know whether it's true or not, or exist or not.
Mm hmmm.
So this is a huge sources in white scheme that you don't really know if it's going to work.
You know, you were talking about nomenclature and now you're using the words guess and scheme, you know, really kind of undermine the credibility of science. But you know, this is good faith stuff. This is like, hey, what if dark matter is this other weird particular thing, how could we see that? And yet it'd be best if we had experiments which could detect any kind of dark matter, But you know, there might be kinds of dark matter which we could only detect in certain ways or easier to spot in some ways. And so it's good to be creative and think about how we could detect specific kinds of dark matter as well, even though we don't know what dark matter is. And if this theory is at.
All correct, well, I'm just trying to understand the scheme. So are you saying there's a theoretical kind of dark matter called fuzzy dark matter? So what is it?
So?
Fuzzy dark matter suggests that maybe dark matter isn't very massive, like some people suggest that dark matter could be like one hundred GeV like the mass of a w or a z boson, like one hundred times the mass of a proton, a pretty hefty particle, almost as massive as a Higgs. That's sort of the classic strategy, and there's reasons for that. There's something called the Wimp miracle. Check on our podcast about that, which argues strongly that dark matter should be around one hundred gv based on how much of it there is in the universe. But people are like, well, maybe that's all wrong, and there's an assumption there that's wrong. What if dark matter is super duper light, like a trilliance the mass of an electron. So now there's an enormous number of these dark matter particles, so many more than you could even imagine, because you have to somehow make like a big fraction of the mass of the universe out of particles that are a tiny fraction in the mass of the electron, which is already very very light.
Well, first of all, I think this whole podcast is a Wimp miracle, Daniel. But I think you're saying, like this version of dark matter, instead of being maybe marble sized particles, they're like super tiny BB sized particles, And some of that makes it fuzzier.
Yeah, it makes it fuzzier because if they're very very low mass, then their wavelengths are more spread out. Some of these things can have a wavelength like the size of the galaxy.
What do you mean a wavelength.
The wavelength of a particle is like the distance on which these quantum interference effects appear, and so you can calculate this quantity. It's called the Debrogely wavelength. You'll see wave like effects for a particle when you interact over these kinds of distances, and that's the wavelength of a particle.
Meaning sort of like the size of it.
Kind of right, sort of, Yeah, it's when it stops acting like a blob like a particle and starts acting more like a wave. Things that have wavelike behaviors. Really it's always acting like a wave. It's just that when you zoom out you can approximate it as a particle.
Because they have low mass. What's the relationship between having low mass and being having big wavelengths.
Well, the wavelength depends on your momentum and your mass. So lower mass just means a larger wavelength because it's really like a ratio between the momentum and the mass. When things have a lot of kinetic energy relative to their mass, they act more like light because light is pure kinetic energy. Have very small amounts of energy relative to their mass their stationary so they act more like bits of sand like particles. And so it's just sort of a rough way to understand where that transition happens.
Okay, so then if dark matter is this kind of fuzzy kind of dark matter, you're saying that each particle would be super super light, and it would also have huge variations in their size. That's what you mean by fuzzy. It's like they might be some of them might be super big and somewhere might be super small.
Yeah, well, the wavelengths could be very very large, which means they can interact over long distances. The fascinating thing is that in simulations of this dark matter, it predicts like a mini halo of dark matter in our Solar system, essentially that this stuff would be clumped up in and near the Sun. That most of the dark matter in the Solar System might be like clumped up near the Sun. It might be like hiding in the Sun.
And if it wasn't this kind of fuzzy dark matter, it wouldn't.
Now, this kind of fuzzy dark matter is the kind we think would clump up like a halo near the Sun.
And the other kinds wouldn't.
Yeah, the other kinds wouldn't. As I mean, I've heard of other theories of dark matter clumping in the Sun. There's all sorts of theories, but this particular one tends to make a halo near the Sun and would affect the operation of quantum clocks because of its special fuzziness. It can also slightly interact with electrons through sort of like a back door in quantum mechanics, which would change the way a quantum clock operates. It's like it changes the electrons' mass and how it responds to photons because of oscillations in this fuzzy dark matter field, and so effectively it changes the frequency of these clocks. And so you can detect in principle whether you're near a dense blob of this ultra light dark matter by looking at a quantum clock and counting its ticks very carefully. And this would be a bigger effect than the effect we talked about earlier, the gravitational curvature.
But I thought that dark matter couldn't interact with regular matter only through it could only do it through gravity.
Yeah, it could only do it through gravity in general, But this one takes a back door through the Higgs field. It like interacts with the Higgs field and it changes how the Higgs field works. And so near the presence of this ultra light dark matter, electrons effectively have a different mass.
But I guess if that was true, wouldn't we see it affect regular matter on a larger scale.
You would see it happen, but it's a subtle effect, and so you need to be near a dense clump of it. So the idea is, take something that's very very sensitive to the electron mass, like a quantum clock, and try to put it near a dense clump of this special ultra light dark matter, maybe near the Sun. So that's the idea is, like launch a bunch of quantum clocks, have them orbit near the Sun, and look for deviations in their timekeeping and see if that's evidence for ultra light dark matter interfering with the masses of the electrons in these quantum clocks.
We mean that you would maybe like throw a bunch of the sun, have them kind of form a half ring around the Sun to see if time changes there, sort of like a giant tirra.
Like a giant tr a quantum cosmic tiara.
All right, but I guess which one would you be proving. Would you be proving that dark matter is fuzzy or would you be proved that it's there? Or are they both related?
They're both related.
Though.
You know, if we saw this thing, there would instantly be like fifty other theories to explain it as well. It probably wouldn't be a unique prediction of this kind of dark matter. Theories are very very clever people, and they'll always come up with another way to explain the data that we're seeing. But it's cool because it's a prediction that this theory makes and we go out and we see it. That's really fascinating, and then we can think about ways to distinguish all the different ideas that might also explain this kind of observation. It would just be cool to see something different. Currently, all of our dark matter experiments basically see nothing. It would be cool to have a signal somewhere.
So you're thinking, hey, let's put up a bunch of microways in space and see if at sticks exactly.
Let's see if one burrito is a little bit colder than another.
All right, Well, an interesting idea for how we could maybe possibly crack sort of a theoretical version of one of the biggest mysteries in the universe.
That's right. Physicists are being very creative and trying to come up with new theories of dark matter and new ways to discover them, including using super duper sets in and quantum clocks distributed through the solar system, which also would just be fun to do.
You just want to parade, Daniel, I.
Just want a tiara? Is that too much to ask?
How about we just buy you a tiara?
Is it made of dark matter? Are you using your bitcoin?
It can be, but in any way that you want. But if it saves tax dollars billions of dollars, you know, it would be a pretty good investment.
Yeah, there we go. That was my scheme the whole time.
Yeah, to get us to buy you a tiara without actually having to run in a beauty contest.
I'm busted.
Well, you are the most beautiful podcaster with a show called Daniel Jorge is playing the universe. So whose name is Daniels?
I'll take very highly qualified compliments, thank you.
It's a very specific tiara based on a very theoretical model of the.
Universe fuzzy compliments from Warhead.
All right, well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us. See you next time.
For more science and curiosity, come find us on social media where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter, Disport, Instant, and now TikTok. Thanks for listening and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. House US Dairy tackling greenhouse gases. Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. As dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more.
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