Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseCan you roast a marshmallow in space, and other listener questions.
Daniel and Jorge talk about space marshmallows, our cosmic date with Andromeda, and surviving micrometeors.
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Hey or Hey, I have an important star geazing question for you. Hit me so obviously, to fortify yourself for a cold night of dark sky watching, everyone needs to make s'mores on the campfire after dinner.
Is that any meaning a question? It's smores are required when you go camping.
Yeah, absolutely, But my question is how do you like your marshmallows? You like them white, gently toasted, or totally blackened.
I'm pretty picky about my smores. They need to be like just slightly toasted. But mostly I just want more of them.
I should have known the marshmallow jokes We're going to make for a rocking road that makes more of them.
Hi. I'm Porgem, a cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics.
Hi I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine, and I have strong opinions about marshmallow testing.
Interesting. Is there a special physics technique to make perfect smores?
You have to keep it at exactly the right distance for exactly the right time, and any deviation from that results in inedible garbage.
Interesting? And I guess you have to rotate it too. That's very important. Do you have like a you know, experimentally determined rotation rate that you rotate your marshmallows at and did you hook up some kind of motor to it so it's always precisely the same?
I will say I have done a lot of extensive experimentation on this front. You know, for science, you.
Have a lot of data points in your stomach and around your waist.
That's right, exactly. My data collection device gets bigger and bigger as I keep taking more data.
But welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.
In which we twist and turn the entire universe around, trying to understand exactly the right distance to look at it so that it makes some sense. We ask the biggest, the deepest, the squishiest, the tastiest, the toastiest of questions about the nature of the universe. What's in it? How big is it? And how can we possibly understand it?
Yeah, because it's important to understand the universe, not too much so that it gets toasted, but not too little so that it's too hard. And the chuck that doesn't melt.
You think it's possible to understand the universe too much, like we ruin the mystery. It's no fun anymore.
Yeah, you know, it's sort of like knowing too much about a movie before you go in. It's hard to enjoy it, you know. Or it's like knowing too much about writing, and then you can't enjoy a book or a TV show anymore.
Oh man, give me all the physics spoilers. I want to know them. I'm happy to have all these surprises be ruined. I don't want to hear by the next year's Nobel Prize. I want to know about.
It now, So then you're going to spoil it for everybody else. Isn't that the whole point of physics to disseminate the knowledge and spoil it for everyone that's in the clubhouse plaque?
Right?
That is part of it. But you know, I think that it's impossible to know the universe too well because I think, honestly, jokes aside, there's an infinite amount of things to know. I think we will never know everything about the universe. There will always be more marshmallows to toast and more physics puzzles to unravel.
Maybe you should preface every research paper you publish but that you know, warning spoilers ahead.
Finding the spoilers is exactly the job of physics, right, Physics is basically the spoilers. Or maybe we should just like figure out the universe and very slowly dole it out, you know, we should talk to the Marvel folks and like have plot twists and stuff like that.
Yeah, and sequels, lots of sequels, that's important. And multiverses. I guess now that's the thing.
Yeah, I would definitely like sequels and multiverses for my funding.
I guess if you spoil one universe, there's always more universes. Technically to watch movies, right with different actors.
There's an infinite audience out there and an infinite possible.
Box office, infinite spoiling war. It will be the name of the big culmination movie Marvel.
We get a cut of that one one million of infinity.
But it is an amazing universe, a delicious universe, and an incredible universe to think about and to ask questions about it, and especially to be curious about.
That's right. And it's not just academic physicists who are toasting marshmallows and thinking deep thoughts under dark skies while on camping trips. It's everybody out there who looks up at the night sky and wonders what's going on around that star? Is there an alien looking back at me? Or what's the physics of this marshmallow? How is it really getting roasty and toasty? Everybody out there who is curious about the universe is doing physics and being a physicist, that's right.
We get questions on this podcast from little kids from seven years old to seventy seven year old who look at the universe and wonder how it all works and what makes it the way it is.
And we love that because we think that being curious is part of being human and that science belongs to everybody. So if you're the kind of person who thinks about the universe and wonders how things work, then write to us. Please send us your questions. Don't feel alone. We are all sharing these mysteries together. Write to us to questions at Danielandhorge dot com. We answer every email. We write back to everybody. And let me send a special encouragement to those of you who've been listening to the podcast for years and haven't written to us yet. I know you have questions and we'd love to answer them.
It sounds like you're scraping the bottom of the barrel now, Daniel bit. But actually you get a ton of questions every day. You have questions every day through Twitter, through email, and also through our discord channel. We have a discord channel. That's what it's called, right.
That's what my fourteen year old tells me. It's called a discord server.
I think it's called a server, right, Hey, yeahat it's not a discord TikTok or something.
Yeah, exactly. We interact with people on Twitter. We answer dozens of questions over email and on discord. We have a community not just me answering questions, but other listeners talking about cool things they've read, interesting stuff they've seen, and talking about the episodes, asking questions about things they heard. So please come interact. You're not out there alone wondering about the universe.
Well, have you gotten listeners to answer their own questions? Like one listener answers question of another listener. Sounds like you might, you know, put us out of a job here.
That's exactly what happens, you know. Somebody asks a question at like two am, and then by the time I log on at seven am or so. There's a whole discussion in people proposing answers, and it's a lot of fun.
Obviously, you need to stay up all night every night on this coord just like your fourteen year old son.
Yeah, exactly. Maybe we should work in shifts. You're up that time anyway.
Yeah, there you go. But yeah, we do get a lot of amazing questions because people are curious. They look at the world, they listen to this podcast. They hear about things happening out there on the cosmos and the very nature of our atoms and quarts and questions come up.
Questions do come up, and they send them to us. And sometimes those questions are so fun that I think other listeners would like to hear the answers. So we pick a few of them and answer them right here on the podcast.
And so today on the podcast, we'll be tackling listener question number twenty four. Twenty four is that, like the TV show twenty four, are we going to talk about, you know, nuclear bombs? And if we don't answer it, something terrible is going to happen.
I don't know which one of us is, Jack Bauer, Are you going to torture physics answers out of me torturing physicists.
Hmmm, that might make a good show.
I hope it doesn't get a big audience. Who wants to see a physicist suffer?
Come on, that's right, Yeah, physicists are self torturing anyways, Exactly why else would you choose that career if not to torture yourself?
Otherwise we just would have been a cartoonist, you know, easy laid back, no stress career.
That's right. You eat cereal at eleven am, you put on your earphones, and you hop on a podcast. Yeah, twice a week. Easy living. I do get risk cramps though, that is the one hazard in the job. Also, your pajama pants. It sometimes get a little itchy, but you know you have to remember to change them.
So are you ambidexterriss? Can you switch to the other wrist when you know the right wrist runs out of good jokes?
You know, I just turned my computer around. I don't know how that works here the physicist?
Okay, yeah, I think you just violated parody symmetry.
Did you just say I violated parrot tree?
I did? Yeah, the parrots are very upset.
About their tree. I flipped their tree. Yeah, this is the twenty fourth episode in which we answer listener questions. And so people send us questions and how does it work down and you ask them to record it and then send it to us.
Yeah, if there's a question I think will work well on the podcast, I asked them to just record themselves at home. They use the phone, they use their computer, they use whatever they have, and they just email it to us. And so it's very easy, no big deal. And so that's why we get this fun audio from listeners all around the world with cool accents.
Yeah, very cool. And so today we'll be answering three pretty awesome questions from listeners and they're pretty exciting and kind of delicious as well to think about. One of them is about roasting marshmallows in space, the other one is about the impending collision of our galaxy with another galaxy. And the last one is about I guess what would you call that the space rain? Dangerous space rain?
About how to survive the cosmic weather between here and other stars.
Interesting. Yeah, I guess if you're roasting marshmallows out there, you want to be safe as well. You don't want to be extra crunchy.
That's right. So we have deep questions about the future of our galaxy and practical questions about how to roast marshmallows.
All right, well, let's tackle our first question, and this one comes from Aiden, who has a question about eating snacks.
Hi, genuine, Jorge. I was wondering how close would you need to get to the Sun to safely roast a marshmallow, or basically, how close could a single person get to the Sun and be safe, or how much closer to the Sun would the Earth need to move for humans to even notice a difference? Thanks?
All right, thank you, Aiden. And I'm a little confused he sort of posts the same question in three totally different ways, I feel.
I think his question is trying to understand sort of the temperature things get when you get closer or further from the Sun, because you know, the Earth is sort of like at the perfect temperature for water to be liquid on the surface, humans to have like nice relaxing vacations in Hawaii and not get too hot. But if we were any closer, things would get a little toastier. And so I think he's really asking about, like, what is the temperature gradient? You know, how close do you have to get to the sun before things get uncomfortable?
I see, well, he paint me out a picture of roasting marshmallows in space, so I guess I'm picturing Aiden in a spacesuit holding a stick with a marshmallow on it, And is he wondering like how close does he have to get to roast the marshmallow or how close can he get without you know, burning up?
Yeah, it's a good question because he's using the marshmallow as a probe, right, like what happens to the marshmallow? Is it going to survive? The problem is that if the marshmallow gets toasted, he's probably also getting toasted because you know, unlike a fire, if you're near a fire, then the temperature drops off really quickly. So you know, you can have the marshmallow be a foot or too closer to the fire than you are and it'll get toasted and you won't. But when it comes to the sun, the temperature drop off is you know, over a much larger scale, and so if the marshmallow is a foot closer to the sun than you are, you're probably getting just as toasted as the marshmallow.
I see, Unless I guess you have some kind of shielding, special shielding, Like what if it's he's behind like a big shield with a little hole that you can stick the marshmallow through so that it gets roasted by the sun but not eat.
Yeah, or his stick is like really really long.
That's a good business solution there. Just make a roasting stick that's you know, three hundred thousand miles long.
Yeah, exactly. I just pawned off the problem to the engineers, like, please, you know, send me three prototypes by tomorrow.
Yeah, just don't make it out of chocolate, because that would defeat the purpose, like chocolate cover roasting thing. I'm gonna write that down, Daniel, that's my next.
Pat Okay, Yeah, I wonder how many of those will actually make it out of the lab or you know, well, I maybe it three hundred kilometers long, but it seems to have been chewed on.
That's right. And I had a heart attack before I could cry the pad.
But I think there's actually two interesting questions here about roasting this marshmallow in space, assuming that Aiden can somehow get to a safe distance or has shielding. And you know, one is like what happens to a marshmallow when you put it out in vacuum. And the other is then how close do you have to bring it to the sun to get it toasted.
I see you're thinking like maybe let's just send the marshmallow by itself, Like let's throw it into orbit around the sun and when it comes back it'll be nice and toasty.
Yeah. But also I'm wondering, like will this thing actually be edible? If you put a marshmallow into outer space, it might like explode right because of the internal pressure. And so then even if it is toasted, is aiden really going to want to eat it? I mean, I just want to deliver to our listeners the treat that they're looking for.
It sounds like you just said that the marshmallow would explode or get bigger, which both of them sound good.
But you're not going to get more marshmallow, right. It'd be the same marshmallow, just less dense. The idea, of course, is that marshmallows have air bubbles inside them. The way you make a marshmallows, you whip up all this fat and this sugar, and so it's really like a little froth. It's like a big foam. And so when you take that into outer space, it might just explode because all those air bubbles no longer have air pressing on them from the outside.
Interesting. But wait, is it marshmallow like a sponge or does it actually have air trapped inside? You know, like a sponge you can squeeze and somehow all the holes are connected to each other.
Right, it's a really good question. You know, I think that there is some air trapped inside this marshmallow. So I actually went and did some research. And there's a physicist at UC Santa Barbara that did this experiment. He took a marshmallow and he put it in a vacuum chamber. So he's got a vacuum chamber in his lab, probably for other real physics reasons.
Probably cost a few million dollars, but funded by the NSF for sure.
Yeah, probably exactly. You mean the National Snack Foundation for Research and Snack Physics.
Yeah, yeah, not to be confused with the NIH which is the National Imviving Headquarters.
The National Indigestion Headquarters. Well, he took some marshmallows and put them in a bell jar, a vacuum chamber, and the marshmallow expanded to about twice its normal size, and so that suggests that there is some air trapped in there, and if you reduce the pressure on the outside of a marshmallow, it really will inflate.
Wow, did he or she publish these results just.
On a blog? So this is not I be reviewed, right, you know, So take it with the grain of salt people, right, or a piece of chocolate. Yeah, but there's another question because the vacuum of space, of course, is much much colder than the atmosphere in this lab, and so you might also imagine that the marshmallow might flash freeze, in which case it wouldn't expand it might freeze first and then the air would sort of leak out through cracks. And so it wasn't exactly clear what would happen in that case.
They need to do more experiments, which also, you know, thinking about it, sounds like exactly the kind of research that goes on the place like UC Santa Barbara.
Oh, they followed up more experiments. They took the marshmallow and dipped it in liquid nitrogen and then put it in a vacuum chamber, and it didn't expand as much, and so you know, that's not exactly what would happen in space. But I think it's a pretty good proxy. And so I think this marshmallow, before it gets toasted, it's going to puff up a little bit, but still be recognizably marshmadre I see.
But then as you get closer to the Sun, it's going to heat up. Then it's going to heat up exactly. So then then it might expand to twice its size.
Yes, because as marshmallows heat up, they do expand, right, because the air that's trapped inside them gains in pressure and volume.
So it might not explode. Or maybe it depends on how quickly you put it in a vacuum too. So then you put this marshmallow out in space, it expands, And then how close do you have to be to the Sun before you can it gets nice and toasty.
It's a good question, and you have to make some assumptions here about how you're going to heat the marshmallow, because there's some subtleties like if you take an object and you put it at the same distance from the Sun as the Earth, it'll get heated to about five celsius, So that's like, you know, forty five or so degrees fahrenheit.
Just from being out in space, just.
From being out in space and getting radiation from the Sun. And that's assuming that it gets thermalized. That like the energy coming on one side goes through the object and heats up also the other side of the object, and it goes into sort of thermal equilibrium. That's not true. For example, of the Moon. The Moon is an object, you know, very similar in distance as the Earth from the Sun, but it gets very very hot on one side and cold on the other side because it doesn't thermalize. Like the Moon gets more than one hundred sea on one side and it's very very cold on the other side because the heat is all trapped on one side doesn't like bleed all the way through the Moon. So if we're talking about a smaller object that's like spinning so the heat gets evenly through it, then something at the distance of the Earth gets to about five se.
I see, thinking about kind of the physics, I guess, you know, it's getting all this radiation and energy from the Sun on one side, but I guess all around it, it's still in a vacuum and a really cold vacuum, and so it's shooting off heat in all directions, right, it's like just trying to get cold. But then it's also has this source of energy from the sun. And so you're saying, at some point maybe it gets to eculirium and it gets to it even temperature.
Yeah, and things here on Earth they also cool off.
Right.
You have something really hot, like a pie, you put it on your counter, it's going to cool off. That happens mostly because the heat is diffusing. It's the mong fuels of the pie are bumping up against the air molecules and they're warming them up, and then that air gets pushed away and you get new cold air. There's another mechanism for cooling, which is that you can just radiate off heat. Like things that are hot get red hot or white hot, they glow. They give off heat through radiation, and so in space you don't have air to cool things down, but you can still radiate heat. So things cool down slower in space than they do on Earth. It's harder to lose your heat in space than it is here on Earth because there's no air, no wind basically to cool you down. But you're exactly right. We're talking to here about an object that comes into thermal equilibrium where it's gaining energy from the Sun and radiating some energy away, but it comes into equilibrium. And so what that equilibrium temperature is depends on how close you are to the Sun. If you're very, very close to the surface of the Sun, you're going to be basically at the Sun's surface temperature, which is like thousands of degrees And if you're out where the Earth is, you'll be around five degrees celsius.
But I guess the question is, you know, at what point will it get toasty? You know, like if it's facing the Sun and you get close enough to it, I would imagine that at some point the side of the marshmallow facing the Sun is going to start to melt, maybe and maybe even toast.
Yeah, And so I did a little calculation using stuff on boltsmen in the approximation, et cetera, And I'm figuring that you need the marshmallow to get to be about fifty c in order to toast, in order to melt, which is a temperature with the marshmallow melts. And in order to get to that temperature, you need to be about point four AU, so forty percent of the distance between the Earth and the sun is a temperature where an object will get to fifty c in equilibrium somewhere between venus and mercury.
I see, that's an equliberance, meaning I guess if you're constantly rotating your marshmallow, or you give it a little bit of a spin in space before you throw it out there, it might reach them sort of e cliverm right, because it's going to be you know, kind of basting.
Almost rotisserie marshmallow.
Solar Rotissary's right, that's really what you're doing when you're rotating the stick, right.
Yeah, that's right. The poor man is rotissary. And so that's assuming that it spins that's equally distributed. If it's not, then one side of it will get hotter. So, for example, if you have a marshmallow that's just stationary and all the energy is going to the surface of the marshmallow, then it's going to be like the moon where it gets really hot on one side even at our distance. You know, a marshmallow in space that isn't rotating is going to get roasted on one side even at one au from the Sun.
Oh. I see, So just putting a marshmallow out in space in orbit around Earth, it's going to get toasted or melted at least.
Yeah, if it gets like tidally locked to the sun so one surface of it is always facing the sun, then the sun will eventually toast. It'll heat it up to like, you know, more than one hundred C.
And then and then what will happen. It will become like goof floating in space and then a which sentence, and then attack Earth.
It will be warm and so it'll be liquid. I don't know if life can spontaneously form inside space marshmallows, So I think that's a topic for another podcast.
But then you're saying that it can't actually roast like you will. You'll never get that nice brown color because in space you can't have that.
Yeah, roasting, That browning is actually an oxidation effect, right, that's reacting with the air, and so that can't happen because there isn't any air out there. So you can melt a marshmallow in space, but I don't think you can brown it because there's no oxygen out there.
Really, it wouldn't at least like you know, totally convert into carbon or something. You know. I find it hard to be to heat up something in space, even to a million degrees, and wouldn't like char at least.
I think the charring, and some biochemist out there should correct me, involves a process where you are, you know, using oxygen to react with the elements and doing chemical transformations. If all you're doing is heating it up, and you're just going to be heating it up, you're not going to be making any other chemical transformations.
But I guess there is a little bit of oxygen, right, because the marshmallow does have some air trapped into it. As a scientists have found out.
Oh that's true. So if the marshmallow freezes and cracks and expels a little bit of oxygen, so now it has its own tiny little atmosphere and you heat it up fast enough, it could also use that oxygen to brown I suppose.
Yeah, there's like an interdisciplinary study here. We need like biochemists and physicists and engineers to build this giant stick.
Well, we're writing a grand proposal to the National Snack Foundation, and you know, maybe they'll fund this study.
But they don't give you money. They just give you more snacks in kind costs. They call it all right, aiden, Well, I think that's the answer for you there. You need to put the marshmallow to roasted in space. You need to put it about zero point four AU, so forty percent of the way to the sun, so somewhere between venus and mercury. If you put a marshmallow out there, spin it around, it will eventually melt and turn guey, delicious and maybe even a little crispy.
Let us know, and don't forget to publish your work.
And stay tuned for our next episode, in which we ask the same question for chocolate. But in the meantime, we'll answer more questions from listeners when we come back. We have questions about galaxy collisions and micro meteors it We'll get to those, but first let's take a quick break.
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All right, we are answering listener questions and also getting a little hungry talking about marshmallows and some moors.
We should stop recording this podcast around lunchtime. I think it focuses our jokes.
Or at least after lunch, you know, so then they we're hungry for dessert.
But then we're going to be full and sleepy.
But who needs to dessert when you have the knowledge and the mysteries of the cosmos to snack on?
Exactly? But we're supposed to be soothing our listeners to sleep and going to sleep ourselves on the podcast.
What do you mean we're actively trying to make people sleepy?
No, but I got a lot of listeners who write in and say that they enjoy listening to our voices as they fall asleep, which I think means we put them to sleep.
Or did they like our voices to be the last thing to hear before they fall asleep. Wow, it's very feels very intimate.
You're getting very sleepy your day honey, did you turn off the lights? Now you're going to give them nightmares? Is the stove still on?
Is there somebody right behind you staring at.
You now you're going to give me nightmares?
Is there a physicist standing over in your deck right now? Did you lock the windows?
Everything is fine, nothing is screwed up. Go to sleep.
The universe is going to turn on without you. Everything's out of control, I mean in control.
But as you go to sleep, think about the nature of the universe and what your quest are.
It's right, yeah, and a lot of people have because they send us their questions and we are answering them here today on the podcast. So our next question comes from Ryan, who is a question about our impending collision with the drama The Galaxy.
Hey, Daniel and Jorge, I have a question that spent on my mind for a while regarding galaxies and their galactic collisions that can occur. So my question is, how is it the galaxies like Andromeda and Milky Way are destined to collide with each other in the far future. I know that the universe is expanding and therefore all matter is in a constant motion, But how can two massive objects like galaxies just be going towards each other. Thanks for answering the question.
Bye, all right, thanks Ryan. It sounds like it's something that's he's been thinking about for a long time.
Yeah, maybe Ryan falls asleep wondering about the cosmic fate of the galaxy.
Well, he would have to sleep a lot for it to happen in his sleep, right.
Maybe he's wondering how long can I sleep? Should I set my alarm clock for a million years, for a billion years? I don't want to miss it?
Or do I have to set my alarm or will the drain galaxy crashing into us wake me up?
If you can sleep through that, then like, wow, that's a superpower.
I didn't managed to sleep through my morning at our kid's morning routine. So maybe if a galaxy a collision happened, I wouldn't notice.
Well that's another question. How many galaxies would it take to wake up.
Poorhead or any cartoonist. But yeah, Ryan asked about our impending collision with Andromeda, and so fill us in, Daniel, We're going to collide with another galaxy.
We are going to collide with another galaxy, and Dromeda is headed our way. Andromeda is the nearest galaxy to us, but it's still pretty far away. It's millions of light years away. But there's something really cool that I think is not widely enough appreciated about Andromeda. And that's how big it is. It's millions of light years away, but it's actually so big that if you could see it in the night sky, it would be bigger than the full moon. It would be like a huge object in the sky.
Well, I mean, if it's right next to us, it would occupy our entire night sky.
That's right. But even millions of light years away, it's still enormous. You know. Somebody wrote me and asked me a question about seeing distant objects using telescopes. And the thing the telescopes do is not so much magnification as gather more light so you can see dim things. Right. They're like enhance the brightness of things more than they make them bigger, because a lot of exciting things in the nice sky are already really big, they're just too dim to see. So Andrama is like that. It's incredible if you can see Andrama in the nice sky, it's really very dramatic.
Oh, I see, you're saying, like, if we could keep our eye cones open and of and looked at the sky at night, we would see Andromeda and it would be about the size of the moon.
Yeah, it would be larger than the full moon. People imagine that all the galaxies are out there are like the tiniest, dimmest little dots. They're even dimmer and further than stars. But this is like, look up in the nice sky. You'd see this enormous spiral galaxy like right there. It would be incredible, but it's just so dim that you can't see. It's not nearly as bright as the full moon many of the other stars in our galaxy.
Maybe it's a good thing we can't see it, you know. Imagine if every time you looked up at the sky you saw this giant galaxy coming towards you, I mean, be frightening, right, like, oh, I look at that beautiful one and that giant galaxy. Yeah, I'd be like, ah, is it getting bigger? Is it coming this way?
It is getting bigger, but by a very small amount every year. And this is a question people ask kind of often. They're trying to reconcile two things they've heard. One is that Andromeda is coming towards us. And the other is that space between galaxies is expanding, and the whole universe is expanding, and everything is getting further and further apart. And these two things seem to be in contradiction. So I get a lot of people writing in asking this kind of question, or this very exact question.
That's right, because we have talked a lot in this podcast about how the universe is expanding due to dark energy, and the universe is getting bigger and bigger, and so I guess Ryan's question is, like, if everything's getting bigger and bigger and farther and farther away, how is it that we are even in danger of colliding with another galaxy?
Yeah, and so there are two effects happening there right. One is the universe is expanding. New space is being created all the time, and that new space is not just being made out there in deep space. It's made everywhere. It's made between me and you, it's made between the atoms in your body. It's made between the Earth and the Sun. It's made between the Sun and other stars. It's everywhere homogeneously, like everywhere in space is expanding. But that expansion is not that dramatic. You know, over a light year or so, it's like a centimeter per year, and so it's sort of like a very gentle breeze. And the other effect that's going on, of course, is gravity or other bonds. The reason that dark energy is not tearing you apart is because the bonds in your body are more powerful than dark energy. Over short distances, they win, and over distances like between the Earth and the Sun, gravity winds. So gravity, even though it's super dup or weak compared to the other forces, is more powerful than dark energy over these short distances. But as distances get larger and larger, gravity gets weaker and weaker. Right, you don't feel the gravity of distant objects as much as you feel the gravity of nearby objects, So as distances get larger, gravity gets weaker, but dark energy doesn't. Dark energy gets more powerful with distance, so at some point it over long distances, dark energy winds, and over short distances gravity wins.
Like right now, dark energy is trying to pull our solar system apart, or even you apart, right, but the gravity is sort of keeping things tightly bound together.
Yes, it's like there's a very gentle breeze, but you and your friend are holding each other's hands, so you're not getting pulled apart.
But over large distances, that gentle breeze becomes like a hurricane almost right, Like it's additive, Like the debris just gets more massive the longer you sample it.
And gravity gets weaker. Because if we're talking about gravity between galaxies or between clusters of galaxies, now we're talking about hundreds of millions of light years. And while gravity's extent is infinite, right, you do feel the gravity of Andromeda and other galaxies, it drops off like one over the distance square, and so if you get twice as far, it's four times weaker. So over those vast distances, gravity gets pretty weak, and then dark energy takes over. So if you looked at the universe only at the scale of like superclusters of galaxies, right, the structure is our solar system, that our galaxy, and then clusters of galaxies, then clusters of clusters of galaxies that we call superclusters. Between superclusters, dark energy is winning. Superclusters are moving away from each other faster and faster every year. Gravity cannot hold them together because the distances are too great.
Yeah, it's almost like you know, we're on a tiny little island, and the other galaxy clusters and another tiny little island somewhere in the over the vast ocean, and the ocean is getting bigger.
Yeah, And the largest thing that gravity can hold together is sort of one galaxy cluster. So like the Milky Way and Andromeda and the other galaxies in our cluster that we call the local group, these things are gravitationally bound. Gravity is strong enough to hold them together like a little group of islands. But the ocean between our cluster and other clusters is expanding like a supercluster. Astronomers argue about whether it's even really a thing, because they don't not sure whether it's gravitationally held together or just sort of currently right now near each other, but dark energy will eventually tear it apart.
I see, that's kind of sad, but I guess, you know, it sort of depends on the distances, right, Like, if our cluster was closer to another cluster close enough, then they would maybe feel more gravity towards each other. It just so happens that there's a bunch of space in between.
There is a bunch of space in between, and so that lets us answer Ryan's question. You know, how is it possible, if space is expanding, for Andromeda in the Milky Way to be coming close to each other. Well, the answer is that gravity wins over dark energy between neighboring galaxies. Even though Andromeda is millions of light years away, it's got a lot of gravity, and that gravity is pulling us toward it, and our gravity is pulling it towards us.
The what you're saying that the Milky Way does feel gravity towards Andromeda, like we feel it, like it's actually changing our trajectory.
Absolutely. Yeah, it's a huge object. It's much much bigger than the Milky Way. It's much more massive than the Milky Way. So we do feel it's gravity, and you know, it's going to take a long time. It's billions of years for these large distant objects to pull each other together. But eventually, that's what gravity does. You know, gravity operates over large distances in long times, but it's very patient. It just keeps going.
It's like the energizer Bunny of the universe. But you know, I kind of interpreted Ryan's questions a little bit different because he used words like destiny and like why is our galaxy destined to crash into another one? And so I think his questions sounded more like he was wondering, how is it a coincidence that we, in this vastness of space, our galaxy is on a crash collision course with another galaxy when you know it could have easily, you know, be aimed to missus, or you know, it's almost like trying to hit two pebbles out there in the vastness of space.
Yeah, and if you just imagine like a bunch of bouncy balls in a huge volume of space, you figure they're never going to hit each other. But these bouncy balls are attracted to each other. Gravity is pulling these things together, So it's not random that these things are pointed towards each other. It's not just bad luck or good luck, depending on which side you're rooting for. Gravity's actively pulling this stuff together. The whole reason the galaxy exists is because gravity has pulled the matter together to make the stars, and then pulled those stars together to make galaxies. And now it's pulling those galaxies together to make bigger galaxies. And this wouldn't be the first collision for the Milky Way. We've collided with many other galaxies. We have other little dwarf galaxies inside our galaxy that we've already gobbled up and eaten, and most galaxies out there have been through several rounds of collisions, and so more collisions definitely in our future.
But I guess that you know, there is sort of an element of luck to it as well, right, Like, we're not destined, Like our whole galaxy cluster isn't all descint crash into each other at some point in the future, right Like, it's not all going to be just a giant black hole eventually, is it?
Yeah?
Actually, it kind of is to become a giant black hole if you look really far into the future. These islands that gravity is controlling, eventually they will pull them all into a black hole. The only thing that lets us resist that is angular momentum. Like the reason our Milky Way hasn't yet collapsed into a black hole is because those stars have a lot of velocity, so they can maintain an orbit around the black hole. But eventually they'll lose that they'll radiate away some of that energy and gravitational waves, or they'll bump into each other. And they will collapse into the black hole, and similarly, all the galaxies in our local group eventually will coalesce into one mega galaxy with a super duper black hole at its center, which eventually will eat all the stuff. Wow.
But then we're talking like trillions of years now, right, not like billions. We're talking like maybe even like, you know, hundreds of trillions of years.
Yes, exactly. But the deep, deep future of the universe, assuming dark energy keeps going, is.
That it's nice and cozy, little crowded.
It's a bunch of super isolated, super massive black holes, and it's going to take a really really long time. But the cool thing is that if you took like a time lapse movie of this process, it would look like it's happening really fast. It would make a lot of sense. You're like, oh, crash, crash, crash, and then a whole thing coalesces. We're just sort of watching it in super duper slow motion.
Interesting. So it's a little bit of a coincidence we're crashing into Andromeda in the next couple of billion years, but it's not a coincidence in the long term of things, where you know, eventually everything's going to collide with with itself exactly.
It wasn't predestined that we would collide with this galaxy at this particular time, but there was no way we were going to avoid colliding with other galaxies at some point.
So either way, it's still a few trillion or billion years, and so Ryan, you still have a lot of time to sleep in.
That's right, and Rooster marshmallows, so rest easy.
All right, Let's get to our last question of the day here, and it's about micro meteors and surviving being out in space. But first, let's take another quick break.
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All right, We are answering listener questions here today on the podcast, and we've had two awesome questions and our last one is about the micro meteors and it comes from Bess.
Hi Daniel Jorge. My name is Boss from Utrecht in the Netherlands. I have a question for you guys. So if you travel really quickly to space, like you go really fast, maybe almost is feel a light. What would happen if you would hit like a tiny piece of debris or maybe like a tiny rock, Would it bounce off or would it explode the ship? And if so, like, how are we able to travel in the future without having to worry about exploding mid flight? I was really curious about that. Thank you, bye bye.
All right, awesome question here about being out in space. I guess the space is not a complete empty vac There's stuff floating out there in space.
There is a lot of stuff out there in space, and not just like the tiny quantum fields that are fluctuating at very low energies. There's really stuff out there. You know, the Sun pumps out the solar wind, which is filled with particles, but also there's lots of space dust and micro meteors and all sorts of things whizzing around out there in space.
Yeah, he talked about micrometeors, and so what is a micrometeor.
Micromedia is just like a pebble that's out there in space, you know, micro meaning really really small. And the stuff that's out there in space has been coalescing in the Solar System for a long time, and so most of it's in the form of the Sun and the planets and even big asteroids. But sometimes those things collide and leave debris. And we talked on an episode recently about space dust, which are like little particles of stuff that are out there in the Solar System. Nobody's exactly sure where they come from. Maybe they're whipped off of storms on Mars. Maybe they come from collisions of asteroids and the asteroid belt. We're not exactly sure.
Exploded marshmallows, perhaps from failed experiments by eight alien campers.
That's right, edible space junk, just open your mouth in space. And there is also a lot of debris, you know, there's a lot of debris near Earth from you know, satellites that have fallen apart and burned up, and you know, screws dropped by astronauts and stuff like that. And some of this stuff is moving pretty fast.
Yeah, And in fact, the Earth sort of gets pelted by micrometeors all the time, right, Like we're literally getting showered by these tiny little rocks, except that they get burned up in the atmosphere.
Yeah, the size of the rock is inversely proportional to the frequency the chances that it hits Earth, So really really big rocks like the one that killed the dinosaurs. Really rare small enough rocks to make shooting stars, not that rare like you can see them on a random night. Really really tiny rocks that don't even make shooting stars happen all the time, like constantly.
And so like if you see it as a shooting star, it means the atmosphere burned it up. But if you are above the atmosphere, those things can hit you.
Right, Absolutely, those things can hit you, and they're moving pretty fast. You know, the Earth is moving around the Sun at like thirty kilometers per second, so these speeds are really high, and things are flying through the Solar system. You know, like five to twenty kilometers per second is totally not unusual for micro meteors, these tiny little space pebbles.
Whoa, you just made me realize that maybe it's not the meter hitting you. It's like you hitting the meteor, like it was just floating out in space peacefully, and then the Earth just kind of you and the Earth sort of came barreling around and you hit the little rock.
Yeah, the rocks have their own little podcast, like, Hey, I'm worried about people coming and hitting me at high speeds.
Yeah, I had this dream or a giant marshmallow totally engulfed our ecosystem. It was delicious and it had a lot of air in it, but now everything's really sticky.
I don't know, embedded in a giant marshmallow. Pretty good way to go. What if our entire milky way hit like an Andromeda sized marshmallow?
Right, that would be interesting. Well, it depends is it melted marshmallow or is it nice in room temperature? Because I don't want to be boiled alive. So I have a molted marshmallow that's uns horrible.
That probably also ruined the marshmallow. Nobody wants to eat marshmallows with boiled cartoonists inside.
That's right, nobody wants more of those.
But Boss's question is also about, like how do we survive this field of micro meteors? Like if we are moving through space at high speed, you know, then these things are basically coming at us at high speed. How can we possibly survive transit between stars?
Right?
It's kind of like being shot at by bullets, right, Like these things are going faster than a bullet.
Yeah, these things are super fast and like bullets they can be small, but they can carry a lot of energy. Right, bullet rips right through you because it's going super duper fast, so it has a lot of kinetic energy. So yeah, these things are dangerous and everybody that goes out into space, even near Earth, needs shielding to protect themselves from these things. Remember we talked about the Juno spacecraft that went out to explore the outer reaches of the Solar System and it was pelted by space dust so much so that it's solar panels had all these little spellations that came off that help them even measure the amount of space dust. So yeah, it's like being in a dust storm right.
Where it can shred you kind of right, because these things are going like like kilometers per second, like three to eighteen kilometers per second exactly.
Imagine being in a dust storm where the winds are kilometers per second velocity that it's like sandpaper, right, it would totally shred you.
And so I guess the solution if you're at thirn space is to have shielding. I guess, like something to block those incoming bullets.
Yeah, and so we got a lot of stuff out there in space, and so NASA has worked on this kind of thing, and for example, the ISS the space station has shielding and the standard solution of this is something called a Whipple shield, named after an engineer whose last name is Whipple. And the basic idea is to have like multiple layers of shielding. So you have like your internal shield, and then you have a gap, and then you have another layer of shielding and the outer layer shielding. Its job is to break up the micro mediaite into even smaller pieces, so instead of having like a bullet, instead you have like a bunch of smaller bullets. And the idea is that it spreads out, so it's not like one localized impact on your inner shield, It like spreads it out over multiple smaller impact sites.
Interesting, but what is this outer shield made out of. Doesn't it get destroyed when a bullet hits it?
Yeah, so eventually it can get used up. It cannot last forever. You don't want to get hit twice in the same spot. So some people are working on these shields that are self healing that will like repair a hole in themselves.
Interesting, how does that work?
Well, they use some sort of gel so that at low temperatures it's solid and it can act as a shield, but then when something passes through it, the friction of it heats it up and so it becomes liquid and then it like flows just close up the hole automatically.
Oh whoa interesting Now, of course you made me think of what if we make it out of marshmallows, Like would it bounce? Would it get absorbed? And with the heat also you know, reseal it.
I think we're going to have to consult the marshmallow lab, but you see Santa Barbara to find it out.
Yeah, I'm thinking like a layer of marshmallows to slow down the media, then a layer of chalk to really take out the kinetic energy, and then some graand cracker plates to really fortify it.
And when we walk into the lab and see somebody heating this thing with a laser and you're like, no, seriously, we're doing space physics here.
You see somebody with like a gun pointed at a s'mores sandwich. They're doing real science.
Yeah, And so this is sort of the state of the art. It's a whipple shield. You have like a thin outer bumper and then you have a gap and you can have multiple layers of it. Right to try to like make yourself protected from even higher energy objects, so you can break them up in several stages. You can do things like stuff the gap with materials that could help absorb the energy, like kevlar, et cetera, like a bulletproof vest literally, yeah, like a bulletproof vest. But in the end you have to build shielding because, as Vast says, if this thing passes through your ship and punctures it, then boom you toast right, So this could be a real problem, and it is going to be a real problem if we ever do get to travel in between the stars. Yeah.
I've always like, if you're going through space and you're going really really fast, almost at the speed of light, like if a tiny rock hits you, it's your tullust, right, Like, it would have so much energy.
Exactly, unless you have really good shielding at the front of your ship that can break it up so that it becomes like many smaller rocks. And the key here is the pressure applied for each rock, right, it's amount of kinetic energy delivered, Like per area. Same kinetic energy that's in a bullet isn't a big deal if it hits over a much broader area like that's how bulletproof vest works, right. It takes a bullet which is trying to put a lot of energy into like one half a square centimeter, and it just spreads it out over your entire chest. And so that's why when you're hit with a bullet and you're wearing a bulletproof vest, you get knocked over, right, but you don't get penetrated. Doesn't like go into your body. So that's the idea is to spread out the energy over a larger area. But yeah, if it gets through, then you've been shot with a bullet and you're dead.
I guess the International Space Station that's covered in all this shielding.
Yeah, they have all sorts of shielding on the space station. They have like one hundred different kinds of shields based on like how much time the astronauts spend there, because you have to balance mass, right, These things are heavy, and so lifting them into space costs energy and money. So you don't want a bunch of shielding where you don't need it. So they have like more shielding where the astronauts spend more time, and then they have like one special room that's like super shielded, so if they see like a shower of these things coming, the astronauts can like you know, basically go into their panic room. And recently, one of these things like smacked into the one of the windows they have this like observation room in the ISS. You have big windows you can look out on the Earth, and a micromedia right hit one of those windows and you know, took out a little divit and so that was a little bit scary.
Because if it cracks the window, it's kind of a panic time there.
Yeah exactly, then it's time to do space marshmallow experiments.
Yeah, quickly before you run out of oxygen. And and like you said, these things were out right, like they're constantly getting pelted by micrometeors and so they were out right. So is a space station does it have like a maintenance program where it replaces its shields every now and then?
Yeah, exactly, you got to replace them and launch new ones. And that's why everything in space is constantly getting degraded. And so when you hear people talking about like you know, launching space based solar power or space based this or space space that, remember that these things will not last that long in space. This huge radiation to fry the electronics. But this also basically space sand paper wearing down everything. It's this you know, constant wind of stuff, just like trying to destroy in space. Remember, the atmosphere protects us from all of this. You know, it's basically a huge shield.
It sounds like you want to have maybe some air trapped around your space station to protect you. Maybe maybe trapped in the form of marshmallows.
Yeah, or maybe we should use the plan we talked about once. Instead of flying somewhere else away from our solar system, we should just move the entire solar system, like we want to go visit another star. We just turn our sun into our rocket. Remember that idea.
Yeah, Yeah, we had a whole podcast about it.
Yeah, and that would solve a lot of these problems, right, because you could bring your atmosphere's shield with you as you move around the galaxy.
And you also need shielding if you're going out in space by yourself, right in a space suit.
Yeah, that's one of the dangers of these EVAs when the astronauts will leave the space station and they're just protected by their suit. They have some shielding on these suits as well, but you know, that's a pretty dangerous if you're hit by a micromediorite, it could puncture your suit. And so they do have them shielded and they do some calculations. You know, they say, we want less than a one percent chance that we're going to lose an astronaut per decade, and that's the threshold they apply to figure out like how much shielding they need.
Yeah, I guess it's like walking out into the middle of a gunfight, kind of hoping you don't get hit.
Yeah, you're doing science in the middle of a gun range.
That's gutsy, Daniel. How dangerous is your day job.
I'm not taking any risks like that. I'm just eating too many marshmallows for science.
So you're building a little you know, shielding around your middle section.
There not so little anymore.
Right, Well, that answers a question for Boss. I guess micrometers would shred you, is the answer to his question. You know, if you're out there without any shielding, eventually probably something is going to start poking hole. So we'll start training your outer suit.
That's right. So before you make plans to move out of the Milky Way to avoid the collision with Andromeda, pack a lot of marshmallows, and also pack a lot of.
Shields, that's right, and a suit of armor if you can, I guess be iron man if you can.
Or carbon fiber man maybe.
All right, Well, that answers all of our questions. Thank you to all of our listeners for sending in their questions. We really enjoy answering them here online.
Please don't be shy, right to us two questions at Daniel and Jorge dot com and keep being curious and keep toasting those marshmallows just right.
If not while you're awake, then while you're asleep, which hopefully most of you are by now.
If we did our job, maybe we should be talking quieter and quieter as the podcast gets on.
Yes, would you start whispering good night, pleasant dreams? All right, everybody, thanks for joining us, see you next time.
Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking about the environmental impact, but the people in the dairy industry are. That's why they're working hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. How is US Dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors to turn the methane from manure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns, and elect cars. Visit us dairy dot COM's Last Sustainability to learn more.
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