Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseDaniel and Jorge talk about the quest to build a crystal out of only electrons.
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Hey Daniel, have you started working on the menu for our food truck?
Idea?
I have.
Actually, I've been experimenting with spice mixtures.
Ooh, reserving spicy food more like sparky food.
What do you mean?
I was going to sprinkle electrons on top of everything? To sort of jazz it up a bit.
Wow, is that the latest gastronomical trend? What do electrons taste like?
You know, I'm not actually sure. Maybe lightning in a bottle.
That would be shocking.
Electrons will be extra charge. Actually, maybe they'll be negative charge.
I am Poor Hammer cartoonists and the co author of Frequently Asked Questions about the Universe.
Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine, and I love eating electrons.
Imagine they kind of taste like maybe a metal, little metally.
You know. They taste like pasta when they're in my pasta. They taste like ice cream when they're in my ice cream. They taste like tacos when they're in my tacos. Everything tastes like electrons because electrons taste like everything.
Mmm, Because I guess everything has electrons.
Everything has electrons, at least everything that I've eaten. I've never had a pure sample of protons, for example.
Are you positive about that?
Because I don't live in the center of the sun, how.
Do you know you didn't accidentally eat something that had its electrons stripped away?
That's true? I guess if everybody accidentally eats like eight spiders at night, then probably an individual proton has flown into my mouth one time without.
Me noticing, yeah, or maybe two or three.
I wonder if your tongue can taste an individual particle the way your eyeball can see an individual photon.
It must write like, don't you have little nerve sensors that they type individual things?
Right?
I suppose? So? I wonder if people have done quantum tasting experiments.
Maybe they have, and maybe they haven't, But anyways, welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.
In which we invite you to taste the entire universe, to take a long drink of all of the mysteries of our universe, to try to imbibe everything that we do understand about the way the universe works, from the smallest tiny little bits electrons and protons whizzing around all the way up to the massive black holes at the centers of our galaxy that are flushing it all down at the end of the day. We invite you to think about all of these big questions, to ask, to wonder, to explore, and to listen to us make bad jokes about all of it.
That's right, because it is a tasty universe full of amazing and filling and nutritious facts and phenomenon out there for us to explore and try out and hopefully satisfy our curiosity.
And we joke about what it's like to taste an electron because mostly we experience the universe at sort of a certain scale. Things are like roughly a meter in size, or things that weigh about a kilogram or take about a second to eat. That's our familiar experience of the universe. But we know that there's another picture that if you drill down to the microphysics, that everything that's around you is actually made of tiny little particles tuing and froing and coming together to make this incredible emergent experience of our lives. And it's fascinating to try to reconcile those two things to understand how all these tiny little particles do that dance to come together to make blueberries and ice cream and tacos and blueberry ice cream tacos.
Yeah, and fortunately we are here to taste this amazing buffet of knowledge and amazing fact that the universe has to offer.
We are here to ask.
Those questions and hopefully explain them to you in a way that everyone can understand.
Yeah, and you can explore this sort of in two directions. You could start from the tiny little bits and say, hmm, what can these bits do? How can they come together to make different kinds of stuff? That can be tricky to do unless you have an incredible supercomputer or our master of particles. But we can also do it in the other direction. We can look around and say, hmm, what kind of things are there in the universe? And how do we explain them? How do we look around and say this bit of lava and that kitten and that black hole all somehow come from the same basic rules of the universe. What else is possible? How do we explain all of these incredible variety of things using the same fundamental physical laws? And what else are those physical laws capable of producing in our sort of weird emergent lives.
Yeah, because I guess the universe has been cooking for billions of years, and it seems to be following the same recipe book, same rules, the same laws of physics, and most of the time the same three ingredients.
That's right, most of the stuff that's out there in the universe is made of electrons and two kinds of quarks, upquarks and down quarks, which you can put together in all sorts of amazing different ways to cook up basically everything that you've ever eaten and experienced. But even just those three can make an incredible variety of things and also different kinds of things. We see them dance together to make liquids, we see them spread out to make gases, we see them click together to make crystals and solids. It's really amazing the breadth of sort of different characteristics and properties that these same basic ingredients can reveal.
Yeah, it's a pretty amazing menu that the universe has put together, which is three ingredients. Although I feel like it's maybe not the full menu because all of that stuff made out of electrons and quarks. It's really only five percent of the universe, right. I wonder if there's like a super secret menu out there.
That's right, If you want to order the universe animal style, you got to know what's off menu. And you're absolutely right, everything that we have ever experienced or stepped on or put in our mouths or stepped on and then put in our mouths are made of these three basic elements, But there is a lot of other stuff out there. Most of the matter in the universe isn't actually made out of these atoms. It's made out of something else called dark matter, which no human has ever tasted, though it's probably flown into your mouth and then back out the other side of your head without you noticing.
Back out of the other parts of your body.
It is dark matter, after all, that's right, But here we're talking about physics dark matter, not biological dark matter, which everybody produces in their gut. But you're absolutely right, there is more out there in the universe than just these three bits. But we are still trying to understand how these three bits come together to do their dances and to make all this incredible phenomenon that we can actually order a food trucks and enjoy.
Yeah, and even though the many of the things we see and can taste in touch is made up of only three ingredients, it is still pretty, as you say, fascinating how much stuff is out there that we can look at and study. Mason kind of wonder what else is out there?
That's true, there's an incredible variety of stuff out there, and it makes us wonder about how it all works. It also makes us wonder what else we could possibly make out of these little lego bits of the universe. And can you make weird kinds of matter by like only using one of them? Can you build stuff out just up quarks or just down quarks, or just electrons. These are the kind of weird ideas that physicists like to explore.
So toally on the podcast, we'll be asking the question can you make matter out of pure electron? How about impure electrons? Are you saying you can make matter out of dirty electrons?
I mean purely electrons, electrons and nothing else. There's those such thing as a dirty electron, because remember, all electrons are really just the same electron. There's really only one electron in the universe.
Wait, what what do you mean there's one electron? Feel are you saying we're all like inside of a giant electron.
I'm making the point that all electrons really are. I'm making the point that all electrons really are the same. There's no way to like label them and to say this electron is different in some way than another electron. They have their quantum states, you know, spin and momentum and location, but there's nothing really about them that's different. You're you, and I mean, we feel different. But electrons don't have an identity. And one way to think about that is as you say that all electrons are actually just ripples in the same universe spanning electron field. So really every electron is just sort of like part of the big electron field of the universe, and that's why they're all identical, because they're really just all part of the same thing.
They're not perfectly identical, right, don't They have different quantum characteristics, and maybe those quantum characteristics are infinite.
Also, they have different quantum characteristics like location, right, which we think maybe there are an infinite possible number of values of it. So you can have an electron here, an electron there, and you're right. Those are distinguishable technically from a quantum mechanical point of view, but you could swap them and there'd be no difference in the quantum state. It's not like they have any other secret labels. You know, this one's Maria and that one's Fred, and they behave slightly differently in the same situation. If you swapped all the electrons in the universe, nothing change.
But don't some of them have like spin in different directions? And can't those directions also be infinite?
Well, the spin can't be infinite because that's quantized, right, and so so they can spin up one half or down one half. There's only two possibilities there, though there are an infinite number of spin axes for these electrons. My point is just that that's all there is to the electron is this list of characteristics. It's nothing else. It's no like identity to each electron. It's just this list of characteristics. So if you took like electron number seven and electron number eleven and you swap them, including all of their quantum states, the universe could not notice any difference because all we can notice are their quantum states.
Hmm, interesting, All right, Well, then the question here is can you make matter out of pure electrons? And I thought this was a weird question because isn't aren't electrons matter? Don't we consider electrons be part of the particles that are matter particles?
Yeah, that's true. I guess a single electron you could consider matter. But if you like went to a restaurant, and somebody served you a single electron for dinner, you might not be happy with what you got.
Well, it depends on how many courses the dinner adds. It has, Like, you know, ten to the twenty seven courses of electrons, that might be definitely filly.
What kind of tip do you have to leave form that many courses? I mean, think about the dishes that they had to serve.
Ten to the two point seven.
Obviously to the two point seven. It is not ten percent of ten to the twenty six. Man, you're thinking about ten to the twenty five. Anyway, It's a good question here. When we talk about matter, we're really referring to something on our scale. You know, things that we can play with, stuff we can make in the lab and poke. Can you have like a macroscopic serving of just electrons? What would that be like? What would its properties be?
Can you build a complex thing out of just electrons?
Yes? Exactly? What are the emergent properties of a blob of just electrons? What can they do?
Because I guess you can put together quarks, right, Quarks you can't put together and make stuff right. You can make protons and neutrons, and you can make atomic nuclear out of those.
Right, you can in fact make complex structures out of just quarks. Quarks can make protons, can make neutrons. They can also make other kinds of stuff, like other hadrons and masons. There's a whole spectrum of them, chaons and pions, and robe particles and omega particles, all sorts of complex stuff. Most of that stuff is unstable. It's heavy, and it decays very rapidly into other stuff. The proton is stable. We think a proton hanging out will live forever. Neutron, weirdly, is not stable. A neutron floating in space will last about eleven minutes. This is a fascinating mystery about exactly how long it survives, and extra super weird. If you put protons and neutrons together to make an atomic nucleus, as you say, then the neutrons become stable. And one of our listeners on the Discord channel was pointing this out, that neutrons are like maybe the only thing in the universe which is unstable on its own, and then you put it together with other stuff and it becomes stable.
That's pretty cool, interesting, But I guess today we're talking about electrons and so The question is whether we can do the same thing with electrons, Like, can you build another kind of particle maybe with electrons or any kind of like like a a big crystal or a chunk of stuff made out of purely electrons?
Yeah, and then can you put it in a spice container and sprinkle it on top of the food we serve in our food truck and charge negative for it?
Charge negative? You mean you pay people to eat it? Sounds like a terrible business.
Electrons are negatively charged. You can't charge positive money for them. That would be like against the rules.
What if they're positrons?
Those are expensive? Yeah, for sure, I.
Think sounds more positive too.
All right, Well, as usual, we were wondering how many people had thought about this question of whether you can make matter out of electrons, So as usual, Daniel went out there to ask people can you make matter out.
Of pure electrons?
Thank you very much to everybody who volunteers to answer these questions. It's a lot of fun for me to hear what people are thinking before we dig into a topic, and it's a lot of fun for the other listeners to sort of calibrate their knowledge. So thanks again, and if you would like to participate for a future episode. Please do not be shy. Write to us to questions at Danielandjorge dot com.
So think about it for a second. Do you think electrons can hang out and make stuff together? Here's what people have to say.
That's an interesting question. I'm going to guess no, because the electrons being all negatively charged, in other words, all the same charge and not zero, would repel each other, so we would not be able to clump them together in order to make matter.
I'm sure if there's a somehow high energy something going on there, you can make matter out of just electrons, depending probably how you with what they interact, or how they interact.
If you can make crystals out of time, I think you can make matter out of electrons.
Of course, you can make matter out of just electrons. Electrons, ah matter. You can have an electron fluid that is just a cloud of electrons. But if you want to build a solid matter or even a liquid, you probably wouldn't need several different kinds of electrons.
So not I would have said, no, you can't make matter out of just electrons. But the fact you're asking me suggests that answer is incorrect. With that in mind. I'm going to double down and say that once again, you cannot make meta out of just electrons. But at the next thirty minutes, to be very strong.
I honestly have no idea.
All right, it sounds like people are split on this question. Some people say yes, some people say no. Some people are being loyally about it, like I was saying that electrons are matter.
Yeah, there's a lot of speculation here, and I loved hearing all the ideas that this question sparked in people's minds.
Yeah, so I guess maybe let's take a step back here and start at the very fundamental level here and talk about just matter in general, Like Daniel, what does matter normally made out of?
So matter when we're talking about like me and you and the ground beneath us, and excluding for the moment, all the dark matter in the universe, most of the matter that's around us, of course, are made out of atoms. One hundred basic building blocks or so of the periodic table are what make up me and you and everything you've ever eaten. You take that apart, there are electrons on the outside of it, whizzing around, and at the heart is a nucleus which is made out of these protons and neutrons. The protons are all positively charged, but they're sort of weirdly stuck together by the strong force. Inside those, of course are quarks, upquarks and down quarks, and a huge mess of gluons sticking them all together. And so essentially you've got protons and neutrons with electrons all around them, and most of these atoms typically are balanced in terms of their charge, the same number of protons as electrons to get a neutral atom.
Yeah, that kind of seems important for things to kind of stick together. And I guess what's kind of interesting is that quarks, like you said, can sort of stick together to make protons, and protons can stick together with other neutrons to make atomic nuclear And so it's kind of weird because all of those things are positively charged and yet they're able to stick together.
Yeah, because there's a lot going on inside the nucleus to hold that together. Right, The protons are all positively charged, they repel each other, and the electrostatic force there is very strong, right, it goes like one over the distance squared, and these protons are very close together inside the nucleus, so The force pushing them apart is very powerful, but the force pulling them together is even more powerful. This is the strong nuclear force. So their forces everywhere inside the atom, inside the proton, there's a strong nuclear force. But that strong force isn't completely captured inside the proton. If you're like on one side of the proton, then you're closer to like one of the quarks at the other, so it doesn't all just totally balance out. You still feel a little bit of the strong force, and the same for the neutrons, and that's what lets the protons and neutrons stick together. The strong force is so strong that even just like the residual leftover bit that leak out of the proton and neutron are enough to hold them together and resist the push of the electrostatic force.
And so that's how I guess protons and nuclear are able to stick together. It's because there are different forces play here, right. There's the electromagnetic force pulling it apart, but then there's a strong force holding it together, and somehow that finds a balance kind of in these structures exactly.
And there's a lesson there about the role of forces in matter. We tend to think of matter as made out of matter particles, as you say, quarks and electrons. We describe the stuff we are made out of in terms of those matter particles. But those matter particles are held together by the forces. There's a lot of energy in those forces, and you couldn't have these structures without the forces. So when you hear people say, oh, the atom is made of the nucleus and the electrons and there's a huge amount of empty space between them, I always think, well, it's not really empty space. There's a lot of photons whizzing around there to hold the electron in place in its ground state around the nucleus. There's a huge number of gluons inside the nucleus, so there really isn't any empty space there. And the forces play a really big role in constructing matter.
Right right, because I guess physicists look at forces in terms of particles, right Like when an electron pushes another electron, or a proton pushes another proton, they're actually exchange changing particles.
There's two different ways to think about forces. One is in terms of fields, like each electron creates an electric field that's all around it that pushes on other electrons. This is sort of like Maxwell's idea. Or you could also think about in terms of particles. You could say, well, there aren't really fields. There's just like a bunch of virtual particles that pass momentum around. So when electrons push on other electrons, they're exchanging particles either way, though, that space is not empty, So between the electron and the nucleus is either a vast electric field that's tying it all together, or a bunch of photons. And this really does contribute to the matter that matters. Think about a proton, for example, it's made out of three quarks, but those quarks are a tiny fraction of the mass of the proton. Most of the mass of the proton actually comes from the energy of the bonds between them. So really the proton and the atom is mostly gluons, right, which we tend to think of as a force particle. So the point I want to make is just that there's not a lot of empty space there, and that matter that makes us up includes both the forces and the matter particles all playing their in this symphony of matter.
Okay, so then quarks can build stuff together, right like you make a proton, and you can make atomic nuclei and then overall that has a positive charge. And then that's kind of how atoms are form.
Right.
You have this positively charge nuclei and which attracts electrons which come in and they hang out all together, and that's how you get an atom of regular matter exactly.
That's how you get an atom. And the protons that are inside the nucleus, the number of them, as you say, determines the number of electrons you need in order to balance it to make it overall neutral. And that's really crucial. The number of electrons around the nucleus really determine the bulk properties. Then you stick like ten to the twenty six of these things on a tea spoon. What do they do? What do they look like? That depends mostly on those electrons which surround the atom, and the number of those electrons is determined by the number of protons inside the atom. So it's all connected in this really cool way.
Right, And so like in the atoms in my body, I have a lot of electrons, but they're only hanging out together because they're all tracked to the positively charged nuclei of the atoms, right, But they don't collapse into the atoms. Right, they sort of like a fly around an orbit around the nucleus.
Yeah, it's tempting to think about them in orbit, sort of like an analogy to a planetary system. Remember, these are quantum particles. They don't have classical paths. They're like here and then they're there and there's somewhere else. They don't have to go in between those places that you've seen them. So typically we describe it as like electrons are in their stationary state. It's a ground state of a quantum particle. It's not technically in an orbit like a classical path. But yeah, the electrons are all hanging out near each other because the protons.
Are there, right, But they don't collapse into the nuclei because of what They.
Don't collapse into the nucleus because they have a minimum energy. Every solution to the shorten your equation has a minimum energy when there's any sort of confinement, and that's not zero. So every quantum field, every quantum solution has a non zero minimum state. And you could think about that as sort of consistent with the Heisenberg and certainty principle. It's impossible to have a particle with zero energy because then you'd know it's energy zero and its location because it wouldn't be moving at all. So there's sort of like a minimum fuzz to all of these particles, which is why they can't collapse into the nucleus, although electrons do spend some fraction of their time inside the nucleus. Right, the stationary state is mostly outside the nucleus, but there's some probability for them to be inside the nucleus at any time.
But not really right, because it's a whole quantum. It's just a probability. I mean, you said there's a minimum time, but they don't really spend time there, right, I guess what I'm saying. It's quantum. Right, it's not like the cat is alive or dead. It's like it's a live end it.
I like how you say it's quantum, so it's not real. I think what you're saying is that has a probability to be there, but we never actually see it there. We don't collapse the wave function inside the nucleus. There's a really cool set of measurements they do where they try to figure out what fraction of the time, or equivalently, what probability. The electron has to be inside the nucleus and it has a real effect on measurements we make. We did a whole podcast episode about that once. But the point is, yes, it's a quantum particle, so as these probabilities to be in different places, that does include being inside the nucleus, which is super weird and awesome.
All right, So that's regular matter. That's what we're made out of. Protons and quarks and electrons hanging out together, and there are many different ways for these atoms to hang out together. We'll get into that in a little bit, and then we'll talk about whether you can make stuff like that matter complex matter using only electrons. So we'll talk about that, but first let's take a quick break.
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All Right, we're asking the question can you make matter out of pure electrons? And now, Daniel, do pure electrons cost more than regular electrons or you know, first press electrons.
I like using imported electrons. You know, these domestic electrons is just not very good.
Yeah, you want the Italian ones, like the ones coming straight out of the olives exactly.
I like Italian and Argentinian electrons. They're really have that's flavor. I like.
Well, it depends on the year too.
And you know the terroir, of course, you know where they come from. You got to know the what's the name for a farm that produces electrons? I don't know, idea.
I don't know lap to table electrons.
There you go, lap to table. I like to know my electron mirror.
Yeah, artisanal electrons, that's that's the kind.
I want, each one handcrafted a little bit different from the.
Rest, that's right, Yeah, by tiny little hands. But the question is can you make tough out of electrics? Can you make like an olive? Can you make wine out of an electron or purely electrons. And so this is a weird question because we know that electrons can be part of matter, but usually when they're hanging out with positively charged nuclei, which is made out of quarts, the question is can they hang out by themselves?
Yeah, And it's really interesting because electrons seem to determine a lot of the properties that we're familiar with. Like if you're looking at a piece of stuff and you ask does it shine? Is it reflective? Is it dim? Is it brittle? Does it conduct electricity? All these macroscopic chemical quantities that are important to us and in manufacturing, and you know, can you eat it this kind of stuff? How heavy and dense is it? All of this is determined by how those atoms come together and how reactive they are, what they like to stick to whether they do like to stick to each other, and that all depends on the electrons, right, Like are the electrons stuck aroun an individual atom or do they like to flow from atom to atom? And so condensed matter physicists to people who really think about how atoms to come together to make different kinds of goo and what kind of properties that goo has think about electrons is like, are they a fluid? Is there like a liquid of electrons inside my metal that's sort of like flowing through? And so it's really the electrons that determine a lot of these properties. So basically it's all about the electrons.
Interesting, which I guess begs the question do you really need the quarks?
Right?
That's kind of what we're asking today is can you make an atom or a block of stuff where it's only electrons? Like do you actually need quarks to put electrons together?
Yeah? And we see some fascinating hints already when we think about strange behaviors of electrons, like in the case of superconductivity. Superconductivity is when electrons can flow with almost no resistance inside of material. Usually there's some resistance you pass electricity from one spot to another, or the wire heats up a little bit, you lose some energy. But if electrons can flow without any resistance, then they don't lose any energy. That'd be awesome for like sending energy really far away and all sorts of stuff. And this happens when electrons come together to make pairs. They're called cooper pairs of electrons. You take two electrons that are about spin one half, you make this weird sort of quasi particle. The two electrons combine together to make effectively a boson, something that has spined one which doesn't have the same rules as fermions. Like bosons can stack on top of each other and be happy and slip right by each other, whereas fermions are like grumpy and don't like to be in the same place. So already we see a hint of electrons doing something weird when they come together just by themselves. Is they can do this weird superconductivity thing that they can't do when they're on their own.
Right, because I guess on their own an electronics negatively charged, which tends to repel other electrons. So really, like if you said two electrons in the universe, they would want to be as far away from each other as possible, Right, they would keep pushing each other away for eternity.
That's right. And the key thing to think about is the kinetic energy versus the potential energy. What you're talking about is their potential energy, their desire to push each other apart. Right, they have this strong colombic potential energy from the electrostatic force between them. And it provides a force that pushes them apart. The other kind of energy they can have is kinetic energy, just their velocity. If they have a lot more kinetic energy then the potential energy. Then the potential energy doesn't really matter, it doesn't really play a role. And that's often what's happening inside metals, for example, is that these electrons have a lot of kinetic energy, so they can just flow and mostly ignore their repulsion. But if they don't have a lot of kinetic energy, if they're like cold or slow, then that potential energy can really dominate what happens to them. It can really determine like the structures that they can form and their behaviors.
I guess it's not just this interplay too, right, Like there's other stuff going on inside of these superconductor or these weird materials. Right, there's a whole bunch of electrons too, pushing on each electron, and also other positively charged nuclear hanging out. Right, So it's kind of like this really complex soup that kind of gives you these weird behaviors.
Yeah. Absolutely, it's very complex, and it's not something that we theoretically understand that well, it's not easy to say, here's my setup, is this going to be super conductive? Or like, we don't have the theoretical tools to be able to make those predictions every time, which sort of boggles my line every time I run into that situation. It's like, well, we know the particles, we basically know how they interact. Why can't we predict what's going to happen? And the answer is it's complicated, Right, There's a lot of chaos, and it's not easy to translate from like the rules of what happens to tiny particles to what it's going to be like to have ten to the twenty six of them. Right, sort of like how macroeconomics is hard to predict from microeconomics, particle physics is based on this idea of like reduction, let's strip everything down to the tiny basic rules that it can reveal what everything does. That doesn't always give you an explanation for what happens and why it happens at the bigger scale, Right.
It sounds like you're just complaining how hard your job is.
I'm amazed at how hard everybody else's job is. That's why I do particle physics because we don't have to worry about, like more than five or six particles at once. To me, it's too complicated to even think about.
All right, well, the question here is can you make stuff out of electrons? So I guess maybe a step as through what happens if I try to make something out of electrons, Like if I just get five electrons and put them together in one place, They're probably going to repel each other and try to fly away as far away as possible. Right, Because electrons only really feel the electromegnetic force. They don't have this back of force like quarks do to keep them together exactly.
Electrons don't feel the strong force, right, they feel the electromagnetic force. They also do feel the weak force, so that's so weak that it's not really relevant here.
Do they feel gravity?
You know, we don't know the answer to that question. How and whether they feel gravity. That depends on the theory of quantum gravity, and it's sort of a mystery to us. Right.
Wait, we don't know if electrons feel gravity.
We think they do, but we don't really know how they do. For example, say an electron has a probability to be over here or over there? Where is its gravity? Is it over here or is it over there? Or is it half over here and half over there. We don't know because we don't have a theory of quantum gravity. We don't know how gravity works for tiny, little quantum particles.
But I guess, I mean, we know that photons, for example, do bend to the effects of gravity. Like if you shoot photons near a black hole, they're going to bend. If I shoot an electron at a black hole, is it going to bend or is it going to keep flying straight through?
It's definitely going to bend, right, And the reason that photons bend near a black hole is not because of their particular gravity as much as it's because of the bending of space from the black hole. So it's really the gravity the black hole there that's determining the path of the photon, and the electron will also do almost the same thing. It won't move in the same geodesic as the photon because it does have mass. But yes, absolutely electrons will get bent around a black hole.
So they do feel the effects of gravity.
Then, yes, they feel the effects of gravity and bend space time, but we don't really understand exactly how that works because they're quantum particles, and we don't have a theory of quantum gravity.
Sounds like, you know, they feel gravity, you just haven't tried to figure out how it works.
Oh, we'd love to, but those experiments are really hard to do, right, because the force of gravity from an electron is tiny. The smallest things we've ever been able to measure gravity for are like on the size of millimeters, and that's really really hard because the force of gravity, so we compare to everything else, like a few electrons on the surface of a millimeter sized piece of iron will overwhelm the gravity of that iron because just a few electrons have enough force to overwhelm the force of gravity from like ten to the thirty iron nuclei.
Yeah, obviously the electromagnetic force is stronger than gravity. But I guess I'm asking, like, if you have two electrons sitting next to each other, are they pulling on each other through gravity?
I think they are, But we don't really understand exactly how that works because we don't know how to combine the quantum uncertainty in their location with the classical theory of gravity we have, which doesn't allow for uncertainty in location.
Yeah, so if you bring a whole bunch of electrons together. They are going to be pulling on each other through gravity, but it's not enough to overcome the extreme repulsion they feel towards each other electromagnetically.
That's right. So it's all just about the electromagnetic force. And if you wanted to like have a pile of electrons, you might think, like, hmm, can I like cool this down into a solid made out of just electrons? Can you like build a crystal out of just electrons?
Right? Well, I guess you know that, don't.
They have experiments where you're able to create electrons, right, and you're able to shoot at them. Can you just shoot a whole bunch of them together at the same time? Like, that's kind of how our TVs would used to work.
Right, Yeah. TVs used to work with cathoid rate tubes where you would boil electrons off of a surface and then accelerate them towards the screen and then they would make a little flash of light. And we definitely do experiments where we like smash electrons into each other and annihilate them to make other kinds of stuff. But I think what we want to do here is, say, let's have a bunch of electrons and just like try to get them together to build something bigger than themselves. Can we like stack them together like lego pieces? Can we get them to form some sort of structure? And then what emergent properties does it have? Does it flow? Is it shiny, does it conduct electricity? Does it taste good? Does they have constant volume or not? This kind of questions about the like emergent macroscopic properties of electrons stuff.
Right, right, But I guess I'm saying it seems impossible because if you try to put together some electrons together, they're just going to repel each other.
So step us through.
What's the idea here for maybe trying to get them all together into a crystal or some kind of structure.
You can put stuff together that repels each other. You can stack magnets on top of each other, you know, north to north, south to south, et cetera. They'll just sort of sit on top of each other. So you can imagine stacking electrons in the same way, where you like get a bunch of them together, you contain them somehow, and then they fall into some pattern which like minimizes the overall potential energy. So they like have equal distances between each other.
Well, I think that's the key word right there, containment, Right, you some of have to squitch them together and keep them together. Would you do that with magnets or what?
The first thing people tried is just making them cold. They're saying, like, let's just cool electrons down so they don't have a lot of kinetic energy, and then see where they settle Did they settle down into something where they're like tiling themselves in a pattern for example. But that didn't really work because when electrons get cold, their quantum wave functions get really wide. Same thing with the Eisenberg and certainty principle there that if you're cooling something down, their location uncertainty becomes really really large. And now you have all of these electrons whose wave functions are overlapping, and now they're interfering with each other and they tend to like slosh around and break things up. So the first approach, just like cooling things down, that didn't really work.
What is cooling down an electron meaning just lowering its velocity?
Yeah, just lowering its velocity. The idea here is to get a situation where the potential energy dominates over the kinetic energy. You want the location of the electron to be determined by its repulsion from the other electrons. You want to like stack these things together somehow into a lattice, so you need them to not be wiggling around very much. You want them to sort of like fall into a little well made by all the other electrons around them.
But they would be repelling each other. So I think you're saying, like, let's put it on like maybe a magnetic bottle or something where they're forced to be close to each other. And then you're asking what happens. Then it's not a stable situation, is it.
Yeah, you're right. Even if you built this thing, eventually it would basically blow itself up or there's nothing else holding it together. So you need some sort of like outside containing vessel or some other force. And we'll get into the experiments in a minute. Most of them use either some sort of like layers of two D materials to hold these electrons together, or some like external magnetic field or something to try to like group the whole thing together so it doesn't just like blow itself up from the potential forces.
Like putting a bunch of toddlers or four year olds together trying to get them to sit in a group or to stand in line. It's like it's pretty hard. You need some kind of external force exactly.
So imagine, for example, putting a bunch of marbles inside a bowl, right and thinking about the lowest energy configuration. You can like stack the marbles together so they're like regularly structured. Then they form this pattern and they're all held together because they're inside the bowl, and they're pushing against each other because they all have these surfaces. So the question is like can you do that with electrons? Can you get a bunch of electrons and somehow get them together so they're like stack And what does that make?
I see what you're saying.
Yeah, Like if you take a bunch of electrons and like pressure cook them together or crush them together, what do they do on their own? Like do they just slaughter around like a soup? I think maybe you're asking, like what's the phase of the thing if you put a bunch of electrons together? Is it a solid or is it a liquid?
Exactly? That's the question what is the phase? And it's a famous physicist, Ernest Vigner, who about ninety years ago thought about this, and he predicted that if you've got a bunch of electrons together and you cooled them down, but you also didn't use too many, you'd like a low electron density so they didn't bother each other too much, you could form something called a Vigner crystal, which is matter made out of just electrons. Electrons like tiled together in this way.
M okay, Daniel, I think after forty four minutes, I finally understand the question we're asking here, because I think you're really asking is can you make solid matter out of pure electron That's kind of what you're asking.
Can you build electron crystals?
When you say mat or, you're actually saying solid that right, because you can have liquid matter.
Well, we don't know what the phase of this is, right, Bignor didn't know. Is it going to be a liquid? Is it going to be solid? Is it going to be some new kind of thing where neither solid nor a liquid can adequately describe it. We just don't really know what matter can do when you bring it together. The emergent properties of ten to the twenty six electrons. Nobody knows what that is. You know, is it tasty? Is it spicy? Is it shiny? These are the questions, right, Yeah, Really.
The question I think you're asking is what's the phase of a whole bunch of electrons that you squished together and force them to hang out with each other in a cold way. Because it's definitely going to be matter. It's just a question of what's the phase of that matter? Is it a solid or a liquid or something new?
Yeah, if you can succeed in building that, then exactly you can explore what is the phase of that? What properties does it have? Is it something new? Is it similar to something we've seen before? Exactly right?
Because it could just be like a liquid or some kind of gas, right, or some kind of like totally random structure.
M Hm and Wigner proposed that if you make these electrons enough and you space them out enough so there's not so much of a density, then they will form this thing he called a Vignor crystal, which would be a new kind of solid with different properties than anything we've seen before.
All right, well, let's get into what this electron crystal would look like, what's keeping it together and what are the forces determining its structure, and also what kind of experiments are being done to make one.
But first, let's take another quick brak.
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All right, now that we understand the question, Daniel after half an hour, which is what happens to a bunch of electrons when you squish it together? Step us through the possibilities. Like, right, you can squish a bunch of electrons together, cool them down. Maybe they'll just hang out in a random pattern, or maybe they'll snap together in some kind of crystal. That's really what we're asking here today, right.
And really the question is can we get them into a crystal? Is that possible? And it seems really challenging because we say you can't just like cool a bunch of electrons down. There's no challenge in like minding electrons, in making electrons, even in getting like a bunch of electrons, but in cooling them down to make a crystal is really interesting. People already think electrons inside of metal are basically like an electron liquid. So really the cutting edge of sort of like electron matter is focusing on these crystals. Is it possible to build these? And because Viigner predicted this like ninety years ago, everybody's been trying to make it for decades. It's been like a holy graale of experimental condensed matter of physics for a long long time. Is trying to overcome the challenges of making this electron crystal.
Now do they try to make these like in a vacuum where it's just pure electrons or are you telling me that they're trying to make it inside of another material.
They're trying to make it inside of another material, and they're trying to use a bunch of tricks. So people focused initially on like using magnetic fields to try to confine them, but that felt like impure because you have all these forces coming from the outside and it didn't really feel like it was an electron crystal.
What to me, that would be more pure, right, because then you're definitely just dealing with a little space of space with just electrons in it. As opposed to like putting it inside of another material, then there's all kinds of things in there. It's not pure anymore.
In this case, the magnetic field is helping align the electrons. It's not just like an external bottle pushing on the outside. It's throughout the whole bulk. And so this feels like then the order of the electrons is dependent somehow on the magnetic field more than the actual electric field of the electrons. People want to see, like can you build a crystal just out of the electric field of these electrons?
All right, So then you're saying that the experiments they're now gravitating towards is to make these electron crystals inside of other materials exactly.
So people are focused on two D electron crystals. You can imagine these things in sort of several dimensions, Like imagine what a one dimensional electron crystal would be. That would just be like electrons evenly spaced along a line where they's like sort of settled in where all the potentials are minimized, right, so the forces are all balanced. Is the lowest energy state would just be a bunch of electrons along a line. Now in two dimensions, on a plane. What's the sort of lowest energy configuration to build electrons? That would be what we call like triangular lattice, or you think about like a triplet of electrons and then you just sort of like tile the whole floor with that triplet. And then in three D it gets more complicated. You have like a cube with you know, electrons at the point, maybe one in the center. But cubes are really hard, and people have been focusing on two D electron crystals, so like can you make a sheet of electrons constructed out of like these triangles of electrons? So that's what people are focusing on.
But I guess why are they amy for these triangle structures. I mean, you don't know what's going to happen, right, you don't know what you think it's going to form into triangle structures. If I just you know, throw a bunch of electrons on a tray.
Well that's the prediction from the theory that that's the configuration that would minimize the energy of the arrangement. Remember that forces in the end are always trying to minimize potential. A force comes from the negative derivative of the potential. The force always appears to push things to move to minimize potential. Like if you have a ball on a hill, there's a gravitational potential, and the force of gravity is going to push that ball down the hill to minimize the gravitational potential. And so this is just the prediction that comes out of that calculation that says this is the arrangement. The triangular lattice would be the lowest potential energy arrangement. So that's what nature will try to do.
You're saying that's the grid that a bunch of electrons on a tray would fall into, because I guess each electron is repelled by the other electrons, but they're also being pushed in all directions from the other electrons, so it's almost like they're containing each other.
Yes, exactly, they're containing each other. So this two D approach actually came out of completely different research. People sort of accident mentally made electron crystals using these two D materials. Remember we had a whole podcast episode about building two dimensional materials. These like very very thin sheets of things. We started with like graphene, which is a weird construction of carbon where people were able to make like one atom layer thick of graphene by using Scotch tape, remember, and sticking it to like a piece of coal basically and pulling it off, and it actually comes off in these one atom layer sheets, which would consider like sort of two D materials, And then people did crazy stuff like making sandwiches layers of these two D materials which have all sorts of other weird properties. Well, what they discovered in some of these experiments was you could get electrons trapped between some of these layers, so it gives you some of the confinement and inside those layers, if you cooled the electrons down and you didn't try to cram too many electrons in, they would actually form these electron crystals.
Right.
Interesting because I guess the electrons try to go up, but they're being blocked by the carbon, and they try to go down and they're also blocked. But you're saying they can kind of flow free lease from side to side, in front and back exactly.
But then if you cool them down, they tend to form this crystal.
But why wouldn't they all just ripell each other towards out to the sides.
But you have some confinement out on the sides also, and we talked about this once for two D electron gases, like if the electrons have a lot of energy, then they're not forming a crystal, right, They're forming like a two D electron gas or two D electron liquid. That's fascinating also because there's different mathematics that describes what happens there. It's a really cool experiment to explore, like the math of two D objects, but here with interested in like a two D crystal. What happens when you cool everything down? How does it fit together? What properties does it have there?
And what did they find? So they made the sandwich, they cooled the electrons in this sheet, and did they snap into crystal or did they just do random things?
So people have been playing with this kind of thing for a long time and they suspected that they were electron crystals being formed, but it's kind of hard to tell because it's very fragile, like how can you tell? How can you see it? People were trying to use things like scanning tunneling microscope to see these electron crystals, but the problem with that is that you're basically using electrons to probe it, and as soon as you like zap it, it just breaks the crystal. You need something which has really high spatial resolution, right, which can see an individual electron, but also somehow doesn't perturb the electron lattice. And those two requirements were like a conflict with each other, right, because being sensitive to one electron requires like strong coupling to that one electron, but not messing up the crystal requires not having strong coupling to that electron. So they needed to come up with a special trick to be able to see whether they were making these electron.
Crystals, because I guess, how do you see an individual electron? Or can you poke an individual electron? Have we ever taken a picture of an electron?
Yes, So you can't take a picture of an electron using photons typically because they have a wavelength that's smaller than the wavelengths of light that we can use. So typically people use these scanning tunneling microscopes which like basically shoot electrons at a surface and see what angle they bounce off at, and you can use that to make an image of an atomic surface. So like the highest resolution pictures we can take, that doesn't really work here because it basically smashes the crystal. The crystal is made of electrons, and they're very very fragile, right, because they're all like very delicately balanced inside each other's electric fields. And now you're shooting a high energy electron into it, you're basically smashing the whole thing apart. So you can't see it with a scanning tunneling typical microscope.
We are.
We see it's unstable.
I'm saying it's fragile.
Right.
It'll hang out there by itself, we think for a long time. But if you try to shoot electrons at it, it'll shatter.
Then when it's formed together again.
Yeah, it probably will. But if you want to see it right, then you need some way to probe it without chattering it all right.
So that sounds like a pretty tough problem. How are they solving it? Or have they solved it?
They have solved it. There's a team at Berkeley that figured out a way to add another sheet on top of it. So they put a sheet of graphene on top of this electron crystal, and then they image the graphene with the scanning tunneling microscope, and they were able to figure out how the electron cris affected the graphene. So it's sort of like they put a sheet between themselves and the thing they wanted to see, and they could probe the sheet, and they could tell how the sheet was affected by the electron crystal behind.
It, like you would see whether there was a kind of like a pattern imprinted on yours on the sheet you put on top.
Yeah, the presence of the electron crystal behind it changed the electron structure of the graphene above it, which you could then read from the scaling tunneling microscope. So it's sort of like one layer of indirection. But they could prove that it's there, and they were able to do all the reverse calculations to make an image. So now we have an actual image of an electron crystal, which they published in this really cool paper in Nature.
Last year, we got a picture or a inferred picture of this Wigner crystal, right, which is made out of pure electrons that are trapped inside of these layers.
Yeah, and just as Vigner predicted, they fall into this triangular lattice. It's like a perfect triangular lattice. It's kind of beautiful to look at and to see this like realization of what some dude with pencil and paper almost one hundred years ago predicted But.
I guess what other forms could it have taken? Can it fall into a square pattern?
If it had, that would have been a real surprise, right, because we wouldn't understand that the prediction is this triangular lattice that makes sense in terms of like minimizing the energy between the electrons, but you never know until you see the thing, like is it possible to make it at all? And does it have different properties from what we expect? And so if it had been a different shape, it had been like, you know, hexagonal or square lattice or something different, if it tiled itself differently, that would suggest that there's something else going on that hadn't been accounted for. And that would be a cool clue, right, be a thread to unravel to learn something else about electrons.
Well, I guess maybe one thing that was confusing me is this idea of phases. And I guess you know, anything that is solid is basically a crystal, right, Like if you cool anything down, even quarks, like even the quarks inside of proton could be said to be sort of like a crystal. Right, it's probably falling into some kind of pattern.
It depends how much order there is. Right, There are also other things like glasses that we talked about recently that are disordered at the microscopic level and don't always fall into a crystal. It depends a little bit on the forces between the things and how you're cooling it. How these things relax into their lowest energy state can determine whether they click together into an ordered structure of crystal or whether they're even disordered when they're cold and stuck together.
All right, Well, that's pretty cool. They made a crystal of only electrons that is hanging out between these sheets of other materials, and so they prove that you get a bunch of electrons cooling down, they do snap together into some sort of crystal.
Yeah, exactly. It's a new kind of solid matter. As you said, it's a new phase of stuff made out of just electrons, which is pretty awesome.
Well, it's not a new phase where technically, right, it's it's a solid, it's a crystal. It's it's made out of something that hadn't been put together before.
Yeah, okay, sure, it's a new example of a solid made out of stuff we hadn't made solids out of. But we think it might have different properties from other kinds of solids. There's another prediction from Vigner that said that you can melt this crystal into a new kind of liquid without changing its temperature at all. So it does this weird kind of quantum melting.
What does that mean, Like it just gets fuzzier and can you melt it over a hamburger to make the nice electron cheeseburger and just brainstorming here for our food truck menu.
It has to do with the quantum properties, right. A phase transition is when the same stuff arranged differently, it gives you different macroscopic properties. And so Vigner predicted you could take this electron crystal and without changing its overall energy, it could do a phase transition to this other weird kind of phase cool.
Well, they I guess they did it. They made a solid out of electrons only. I guess what does that mean? What does that mean about our understanding about the electron Well.
It means Vigner was a smart dude and he knew what he was talking about. And it also means that we can now continue to explore it in other directions, like people can try to make multiple sheets of this thing to see, like, what do multiple layers of this thing form and you get weird electrical properties out of it? Can you make like a three D electron lattice just out of electrons? And what properties would that have?
Right?
Would it be conductive? Would it not be conductive? All these sorts of questions. Every time you make a new kind of goo, you make stuff out of the same microscopic ingredients, but in a different way. You can make revolutionary new behaviors. Right. All the kinds of behaviors we've seen in the universe just come from the kinds of stuff we've been able to put together. And we don't know what else matter is capable of when you put it together in new, weird ways.
So I guess now electrons can feel a little bit better about themselves. Right, It's not just quarks that can make structures. Now we know electrons can too.
That's right. Electrons are doing it for themselves.
They're not the learners we thought they were. They are able to play in a team.
That's right.
Electrons have now unionized, so watch out.
That's right, everything's going to cost more and come with a bigger charge.
Exactly. The whole universe is will be more negatively charged than before.
All right, well, another awesome example of how the universe keeps surprising us. You know, we think we know all of the ways that the stuff in it can click together and make stuff, but there's always interesting situations that physicists can make to create new kinds of matter.
And there's no telling what it's going to do and how it's going to surprise us. One day, we'll make something which has a completely new kind of property. We don't even have a word for today because we've never seen.
It before, and you'll see it first on our menu for our food truck because hopefully it won't kill you.
We'll just taste good.
And if it does kill you, hopefully your errors don't sue us.
Right well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us, See you next time.
Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite show.
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