Daniel and Jorge Explain the UniverseEverything is moving and spinning -- is it possible to be totally still in the Universe?
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Hey or hey, when did you get up today?
How do you know I got up? I could be recording this from my bed right now.
Thanks for that mental image. Now I kind of regret.
Asking, and even if I'm in bed, I'm technically still moving.
Really is your bed on wheels or something, or you have like a flying bed That.
Would be exciting.
But no, I'm on Earth and the Earth is spinning right in space and it's also flying around the Sun.
So I'm still moving right?
Does that count? I mean, does your fitbit give you steps for it?
Well?
I don't really believe in fitbits. I believe in that bits. I have one. They make one for cartoonists. I am Hoeham, a cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics.
Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor. You see Irvine and it feels like I'm always in motion.
Oh yeah, like your mental gears are always turning. Or are you one of those people that work on a treadmill all the time.
No, I definitely do not work on a treadmill. I work on a chair and I lean way back with a crazy, ridiculous posture that would make like any ergonomics specialist cringe.
And that's what you mean by motion. That's your workout leaning back for an.
App No, I mean I'm sort of always scrambling from one thing to the other, working on this. Oops, that's late, running over here. It feels like being an adult in today's modern world is always scrambling from one thing to another.
I know what you mean, but you do know you have a choice there.
With Daniel, I could retire early.
Yeah, you could not do so many things that.
Who would I even be?
Man?
Who would I even be?
Welcome to existential Questions with Daniel and Jorge now, but seriously, welcome to our podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.
In which we do delve into the deepest of existential questions. Why does the universe exist? How does it all work? What is our place in it? How long will it last? How will it end? And whose fault will it be when it finally goes poof? In which we dig deep into the very smallest, tiniest little bits of that universe, ask the basic questions about how everything works, and explain all the answers as far as we know them to you.
Yeah, because it is a confusing and vast universe, and it's a pretty restless universe. It seems to be always in motion. There's always something going on in the universe, because you know, it's so big, and there's always I don't know, and exploding star somewhere. There's planet spinning everywhere, asteroids flying through the sky.
It does seem to be sort of in slow motion violence. You know, you look out into the night sky and you just sort of glance at it, and it seems static. It's not like the stars are whizzing around in front of your eyes. But you know, you pay attention, you see the night sky slide by, and the longer you watch, the more you notice that, like crazy stuff is happening out there, vast explosion that take millions of years but are still very dramatic. So everything up there is actually in motion. We just sort of live in a tiny little burst of time where things seem to be stationary.
Yeah, and there's not just a lot of action going on out there. There's a lot of action inside of us. And in the smallest of particles, everything is always you know, vibrating or spinning or quantum spinning or disappearing and appearing at the same time.
Yeah, you're right. Quantum mechanics says that everything is in motion and has to be in motion, that nothing can actually come to rest, that nothing in the end can really have no energy. So the very nature of our existence seems to be in motion.
Yeah, and it does seem like nowadays life involves a lot of moving around. You know, it seems like things are spinning and moving and changing faster than we can you know, get a hold of it. And so you know, the idea of resting or being motionless or you know, just stopping and not doing anything is is kind of weird, right, maybe to a lot of people.
Yeah, maybe, I think a lot of people did more of that in this last year than they're used to when to fewer places, cancel traveling, didn't go to the office as much, so a lot of people were sort of stuck in a smaller orbit than they usually are by the pandemic. But still everybody is still moving.
Yeah, it's been kind of a tough year for everybody, but it's still fun to kind of think about the universe and all the things that are going on inside of it. And we especially like to ask interesting questions in this podcast about you know, what's theoretically possible and what is theoretically impossible or what is theoretically nonsensical.
That's right, and we're not the only ones wondering about those kinds of questions. All of our listeners are out there thinking about the nature of the universe and what's possible and what their experience is like in it. And a lot of people write in with a particular question when they notice that everything in the universe seems to be moving. Everything is sliding or spinning or orbiting or zooming through space. And I think this inspires people to ask this particular question about whether motionlessness is possible.
Yeah, so the pot we'll be tackling the question can you be motionless in space?
Now?
Daniel, do you think people are you know, being aspirational with this question, like how can I be motionless in space? Or are they asking you think the theoretical question is is it possible to be not moving at all in this universe.
I don't think anybody is asking a practical question. I don't think they're trying to develop one of those like extreme isolation pods where you can float out in space and have nothing touch you or anything like that. I think people are pushing the envelopes because they want to know what's possible. So in that sense, I guess it's a theoretical question. Just like in our Extreme Universe podcast episodes, sometimes you learn something about the nature of space by looking at the extreme situation, asking what's the fastest you can go or what's the slowest you can go, what's the hottest something can be, what's the coldest something can be. So, since everything seems to be moving, I think people are wondering, is it even possible theoretic for something to be totally at rest? What would that mean, what would it require? What does it reveal about the nature of the universe?
Right? Yeah, still let me to think that a physicist might ask a practical question.
Sorry about that, but.
It is a pretty interesting theoretical question, like can you be not moving? I guess, And do you think that's more about staying still or a feeling that you're not moving?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, do you think people are asking about is there a point in the universe that's technically not moving relative to everything else? Or do you think it means just like how can I not have an emotion relative to anything else?
Yeah? I think there's a lot of interesting stuff to unpack there about like the very nature of what it means to be in motion that we're going to have to dig into because I think something about this question reveals that people are thinking about speed in a way that comes naturally to them on the surface of the Earth, where it makes sense to talk about what my speed is. But when you go out into space, things change. Things are different the same way that like up and down have a meaning on the surface of the Earth but don't really makes sense anymore out in space. I think we're going to learn that the whole concept of velocity is a little bit different than what a lot of people had in mind. So this is a great question, not because the answer is simple and reveals the truth about the universe, but because the nature of the question makes you rethink the whole nature of motion.
Yeah, and then you have to ask the follow up question, which is can you be emotionless in space? After learning the answer to the first question.
I think we know the answer. That is called the movie Gravity.
Oh, movie criticism and physics all in one podcast.
Seriously, nobody seemed to have any emotions in that movie. They're all just like stoic.
I'm just trying to not die. I think in space. Can you be alive in space? That's the question they were asking, not just standing still because you're dead. But yeah, This is a pretty interesting question, and so, as usual, we were wondering how many people out there had thought about this question and whether or not they have an answer that they might have thought of. So Daniel went out there into the internet to ask the question, can you be motionless in space?
That's right, I go out into the web and beat the bushes for people who are interested in answering these questions for us. If you are out there on the internet and have not participated, please we want to hear your voice, especially if you're from a location we haven't heard anybody from before. We would love to hear your voice on the podcast, so please write to us to questions at Danielandjorge dot com.
So think about it for a second. Do you think it's possible to be motionless in space? Here's what people have to say.
Well, I can be motionless if I don't move a muscle, so nothing on me would move that would qualify as motionless, I guess. But relative to something else, I would probably never be motionless because everything else is moving. The Sun is moving around the center of the galaxy, the planets around the Sun, everything else is moving. Even space itself is expanding, so even if I'm in a point in space and the space around me is expanding, then the things around me would be more moving along with it as well. So can you be motionless in space? Yes, if I don't move a muscle, no, relative to anything else.
I don't think you can be motionless in space. If two bodies are passing by each other and neither is accelerating, both bodies, from their perspective would feel that they were standing still and the other one was moving.
It doesn't seem like it, since your motion would be relative to whatever it was around you. So even if you're standing still on Earth, the Earth is spinning and moving around the Sun, and if you're standing still next to the Sun, it's spinning around the galaxy and the galaxy is moving. But maybe it's possible to just still with respect to the.
Fabric of space.
Well, if I'm not moving at all, yes, but motionless like not moving from the we really regarding to something like the Moon, Earth, Sun, galaxy, the galaxy cluster Lannikie and so on, probably I'll be moving.
Motion is relative, measured relatively to other things.
So I guess you could.
Technically you would always be motionless and always be moving in all different directions at the same time. With space expanding, I don't know if that becomes a factor too, but probably does.
I don't think that you can be motionless in space. I think that there's a reason why Einstein thought up the theory of relativity, because there is no super position that we can use to compare positions in space against. You've only really got what you have, which is your own frame of reference, and then you compare that to something else, And because everybody else has a different reference, there is no set central position where something is not moving.
If I somehow ended up in space and I wasn't moving for some reason, according to which one Newton's first law, an object that is not moving, well stay stationary. So I suppose if somehow, I don't know, if the Earth vanished and I was left suspended in space and I wasn't moving, then I would be motionless in space.
All right.
A lot of people there doesn't seem to think it's possible to be motionless.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's fascinating.
You think a lot of people are just naturally restless or yeah, they have one of those restless leg syndrome.
Yeah, there are those people who are always tapping on something or got like a fidget spinner or something.
Yeah, yeah, I know what my kids would say.
They would say, now it's impossible, right, I know what I would say about my children, even if they were in space.
And the kids would say, like, and why would you want to? That seems really boring, right, just lying there doing nothing.
Yeah, so it's an interesting question.
I guess the question sort of boils down to, like, it's not about standing still, but it's more about moving, right, like your whole body moving somewhere, right, because technically we are always vibrating, right, like if we have a temperature, our molecules are moving. This is more about, you know, whether we're as a whole sting still or translating or moving or going from one place to another.
Right.
Yeah.
I think we should sort of like approximate you as a little dot or point particle and ignore all the motion inside you, and then ask the question, can point particle you can spherical? You be motionless with respect to everything? Is that even possible?
Right?
Like cartoon hoorhe?
So this should be easy because I'm good at ignoring all the emotions.
Inside of me. Right, that was a little dark no, I'm just.
Kidding, but yeah, it's about whether or not we're moving in relative or moving in space as a whole.
Yeah, exactly. And one of the most important things to understand is that there is no absolute motion. All motion is relative. It's always defined relative to something else.
You Know.
People write in often and ask questions about like special relativity, and usually their questions start with something like if I was in a spaceship and I was going really really fast, and they don't say what they're going really really fast relative to? You know, they have this sense that like there's something that happens when you get up to high speeds. But the thing that's missing there is like who are you speeding by? Where are you going fast relative to? There is no sense in which you have speed other than that it's measured relative to other things or people.
Right, because I guess motion is a quantity that is that can exist on its own.
Right, Yeah, exactly. If you are, for example, in an empty universe, right, it's just you floating in space and there's nothing else in the universe, then your speed doesn't make any sense. You have no velocity. You can't have velocity because velocity is just motion. Relative to something else.
You know, I guess this might be confusing to people because I wonder, like, you know, I think a lot of us maybe imagine that, you know, the universe maybe has an extent, like a limit, like a wall at some point. Maybe it's a big sphere, made it's a big blog, maybe it's a donut. But it has sort of like a shape of it. So couldn't I measure my speed or my motion relative to that shape?
No, because the universe is actually symmetric, Like if you do some experiment over here and then you do the same experiment over there, you always get the same answer. There's no point in space that's different than another point in space, Like space has no texture. There's no way to tell where you are in space. I mean, it might be that the universe is finite and has some like weird edge to it, but we haven't observed that, And the current cosmological models usually assume that the universe is infinite and that every point in it behaves it's the same way, like the laws of physics are the same no matter where you are, and so you can't do an experiment to determine where you are. So it's not like you can feel space moving by or measure yourself your location relative to some like absolute point in space. There is no absolute point, and so there is also no absolute velocity.
Well, there's no absolute point that we know of, right, But could there be one if like the universe does have a shape or like a wall or limit.
In some scenarios, yes, in most scenarios. Know, Like, even if the universe is not infinite, right, it might not have an edge. Like imagine the universe is closed and finite the way it like wraps around itself. That doesn't mean that there's any special point. It can be finite and still have like no special location to it. Imagine you're like on the surface of a sphere, right, then every point on that sphere is really the same, even though the surface is not infinite, right.
Yeah, I guess like if the universe was like at the Pagnag screen, then there's technically no real place in the pac Man screen because it just loops around forever. But I guess I'm just trying to get to the possibility that maybe it does have an edge, in which case there would be something like an absolute decision.
Right.
If the universe did have some sort of like strange wall as an edge to it, or some like deformity in its geometry. Then yes, that would break this cosmological principle that every location is the same, and then you could measure your velocity relative to that there would be a special location in space. But still your velocity would only have meaning relative to something. And you can define your velocity to be relative to like that weird edge of space, or the sun or the moon, or there's dust particle, but the definition of your velocity still only has meaning relative to something.
Right, Yeah, Because I guess you know motion or velocity. It's like the change in a quantity, which is distance. So you can't have distance if you don't measure relative to something else, right.
Yeah, exactly. And this is actually really closely connected to like all sorts of interesting deep physics of the universe. You know, the fact that space seems to be the same everywhere, that if you do your experiment here and then you transport it ten light years over there and do it again, that you get the same answer. That's connected to an important law of physics, which is conservation of momentum. And we're going to do a whole fun podcast episode about this deep theory of physics called Nuther's theorem that tells you that anytime you have a symmetry like that, something where the universe doesn't care where you are, you get some conserved quantity, something which doesn't change as you do your experiments. So in this case, the connection is the fact that you can move from one place in space to another and not have your experiment change. Is why we have conservation of momentum, which is sort of mind blowing to me. But yeah, exactly, velocity is defined relative to other things in space, not relative to space itself.
Right, And I think it extends not just to like your precision in the universe, right, Like you can do an experiment here or there and it should be worked the same. But it also comes up in doing the experiment at different velocities. Right, I can do my experiments going at one hundred miles per hour and relative to the Earth, or I can do it at one hundred thousand miles per hour. I should get the same results if I'm going at a constant speed, right.
Yeah, exactly, if you're in a box, you can't measure your velocity relative to stuff outside the box. You can't see that stuff at all. So if you do an experiment, it shouldn't be sensitive to your velocity relative to that stuff. So the classic scenario is like you set up some experiment. I don't know what it is. It's got you know, like balls swinging and hitting each other or whatever, and then you gently accelerate up to some higher speed, right, And the key there is gently accelerate so you don't like destroy everything. Now your speed is high relative to like the surface of the Earth or the planet you were on or whatever. You do the same experiment, you should get exactly the same result. And that's not just some like weird esoteric thing. That means that you can't measure your velocity. It's no experiment you could do that would give a different answer if your velocity relative to that planet is zero or one thousand meters per second, and that means you can't build a device to measure that veloc.
Right, And again this applies to just to double check, this applies to like constant velocity.
Right.
If I'm accelerating, then that's a whole different ballgame.
Exactly. Acceleration is totally different, which is also really interesting. Acceleration is something you can measure there is absolute acceleration. If you're in a box, you can measure your acceleration, right. You can do a simple experiment toss the ball up in the air and it will move differently if you're under acceleration then if you're not. And also you'll feel it. If you're in a box and it's accelerating, it will feel just like gravity. Right, Acceleration feels just like gravity, which was the whole inside which led to general relativity and that whole revolution and understanding space and time. But position and velocity only make sense relative to other things, right.
And I think what you're saying, basically just to kind of drive this home, is that like, if you're inside of a box out in space, it's sort of impossible to know how fast that box you're in is moving relative to other things, right, Like if it's moving at a con speed or not. It's impossible to tell if that you know, boxes floating out in space or it's like moving super fast across the galaxy.
Yeah, exactly, as long as you can't look outside the box. Like if you have a window, you can look outside and you can see things moving by and measure it. But if all you can do is measure things inside the box, then yeah, you can't measure your velocity relative to anything outside the box. There's no way to tell.
Right, And so I think what you're getting at is that basically just the word motionless doesn't really have any meaning, right because you might think your motionless now inside your box, but really you could be moving really fast or not at all, or moving in any kind of crazy direction outside of that box. So really the word motion list doesn't mean anything from a physics math point of view.
Yeah, it's either totally meaningless or it's just totally arbitrary. Like you can pick a definition of a reference frame and say, I'm going to say that the Earth is at the center of my reference frame. Now my velocity has meaning. I'm talking about velocity relative to the Earth. But you could also pick anything else. You could pick the sun, you could pick that grain of dust, you could pick a distant comet. Your answer depends on your choice, and your choice is totally arbitrary, and no choice is better than any other. So you can either say velocity is meaningless, right, or you can say it only has meaning when you make an arbitrary choice of what you're measuring. It relative to right.
So basically, when you try to answer the question can you be motionless in space, you're saying that's kind of a nonsensical question, or like an impossible question to ask in terms of the math and the physics, because there's no way to tell if you are motionless, because it depends on what you measure your motion relative.
To and it could be anything.
It could be anything, and even if you pick something, it would be totally different according to somebody else.
Yeah, exactly, Like in some sense, the answer is trivial, like, yes, you can be motionless in space if you measure your motion relative to yourself. So by definition, your velocity is zero relative to yourself. Boom, your motionless in space. So that's what I meant when I said, like, this question is interesting because this whole question of velocity. I think people have an intuitive sense that like, motion is something that you can measure, but you can't actually measure it in a pure sense. You can only measure a relative to other things, and so it becomes kind of arbitrary and unfortunately meaningless.
All right, Well, I think that's a little counterintuitive because our daily experience is that we are moving on Earth and the Earth is moving around the Sun, and then the Sun's moving around the galaxy. So let's dig a little bit deeper into these types of motions, and then let's try to answer whether or not it is actually possible to get around that loophole. But first let's take a quick break.
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All right, we're trying to answer the question can you be motionless in space? And the answer is yes and no, or ask a better question?
Is the answer?
It's yes according to our legal department, as long as you define a reference frame.
Right, Because the idea is that you know, I can always say emotionless relatives to whatever box I'm in, But you know, who knows what this box is moving relative too?
Yeah, and that's sort of like the abstract theoretical answer, and it's unsatisfying because there are some reasonable choices you can make. Right in theory, what reference frame you pick to measure your motion is totally arbitrary, and there's no one preferred over others. But there are things around us that it makes sense to define your motion relative to. Right, you know, we have the Earth, we have the Sun, we have the galaxy, and it's fascinating how we are moving relative to those things.
Yeah, and it's not a little bit of motion. We're going pretty fast right here on Earth. So what like, let's maybe take it one step at a time. What if I define our emotion as relative to the Earth or the center of the earth, how fast are we moving?
Yeah?
Right, relative to the Earth or the center of the earth. Those are two different things. If you say, what's my motion relative to this patch of earth underneath my feet, well, if you're just standing on it, then it's obviously zero. But if you say, what's my motion relative to the very center of the Earth, then you have to measure the spinning of the Earth, right, because the Earth is not just a ball of rock moving through space. It's also spinning, spinning pretty quickly like it's a big rock, and it spins once every twenty four hours, so that's pretty high speed. You know, at the equator, for example, the surface of the Earth is moving at sixteen hundred kilometers per hour relative to the center of the Earth. And of course that depends on your latitude, because at the north pole it's not moving at all, and then the south pole is not moving at all, and at the equator it has that maximum speed.
Right, Although I wonder if you're committing the same error that we were pointing out earlier, because you just said the Earth is spinning really fast, But don't you have to say what it's spinning.
Fast relative to? Yeah, exactly, Like, couldn't.
The whole universe, like strange coincidence, be spinning kind of at the same rate the Earth is, in which case we're not really spinning.
Yes, And here we're talking about spinning relative to the center of the Earth.
Right.
When you talk about spin, you have to pick an axis around which you're spinning. And so you're right that there's no like preferred axis there and that's actually a really interesting question. I want to get into it in a future episode. But whether or not the whole universe is spinning, or whether the Earth is spinning, it's a deep question called mox principle that we should dig into. But you're right, you need to pick a reference frame there. So here we've picked the center of the Earth, or more specifically, if we're talking about spinning, an axis that goes from the north to the south pole.
Right, So we're spinning really fast relative to that axis, and maybe a common question might be like why don't we feel that motion? Like you know, if I sit in a Merry Go round or one of those state fair rides that's spin your round, I definitely feel that, But we don't feel this crazy spinning of the earth right now.
Yeah, it's really interesting. And if you dig back into history, as science was sort of like figuring out that the Earth was spinning, that it was moving in this way, people realize this and they're like, well, that's ridiculous, Like if the Earth was spinning that fast, we would definitely feel it, wouldn't we And so it was counter to people's impressions.
Like wouldn't we fly off into space, right, And.
The answer is yes, we would fly off into space if the Earth was spinning faster. You know, like if you speed up a Merry go round and you can't hold on anymore, then you fly off the merry go round. Well, what's happening here on Earth is that we are spinning, but gravity is holding us down to the surface of the Earth, and gravity is more powerful than that's centripetal force. But also the Earth's spin is very very smooth and doesn't change. Like if the Earth was spinning up and going down all the time, then you would definitely notice that. But because it's very nearly constant, it just sort of gets like subtracted out from the gravity that you feel. Like you feel gravity right, it's holding you to the Earth. You notice it. If the Earth wasn't spinning, there would be more effective gravity, Like gravity would feel stronger if the Earth wasn't spinning. So you are feeling the spinning of the Earth as a sort of like slight lessening of the gravity you feel, but it doesn't change very much.
You don't notice, right, which you just made me think that like if the Earth wasn't spinning, we would all weigh a little bit more. Yeah, like we would feel gravity, Yeah, we would be heavier, yes, And you do weigh more at the north pole than you do at the equator, but only by a very small amount. And that's why you don't typically notice these things. And that's why the whole sense that the Earth is spinning underneath us feels weird because it's not something you could like intuitively.
Grasp, right.
But I think, you know, I think you sort of hit on it when you said that the Earth is spinning really smoothly, Like that's I think that's one reason why we don't feel this crazy spinning.
But it I think maybe.
The other part of it is that it's not kind of like a perfect motion system, right, Like we still do technically feel things like careolis accilaration, right, and things that would happen if you were kind of in a merry go round trying to get to the center or trying to move around a merry go round. We technically still feel those weird forces. They're just kind of small relative to the size of the Earth.
Absolutely, you can do experiments to prove that the Earth is spinning, because a rotating reference frame is not an inertial reference rame. For you special relativity wunks out there, and so you can definitely detect that. What happens when you have a reference frame that's accelerating, and when you're spinning, that's acceleration because you need a force towards the center of the spinning. What happens when your reference frame is spinning is that you get some apparent force. It feels like there's some force doing something, even though it's just duty your spinning. And here on Earth that's the Coriolis force. And so for example, if you drop a rock from the top of a very tall tower, you can measure how far it moves sort of sideways in a way that it wouldn't if the Earth wasn't spinning. You know, it moves like a couple of centimeters when it falls like one hundred and fifty meters. So it's a small and subtle effect, but you definitely can measure it, and it would be more dramatic if the Earth sped up.
Interesting, so, like if you went up to the top of a tall tower and you drop the rock, it wouldn't fall straight down, it would sort of curve in this weird way because the Earth is spinning.
Yeah, exactly, like imagine you're back on that Merry Go round and you want to throw a ball to your friend who's in a different spot on the merry go round. You can't actually just throw it in a straight line towards your friend, because by the time the ball gets there, your friend will have like rotated away. So if you want to throw the ball so that it gets to your friend, you to throw it like a little bit to the left, because if you throw a ball straight while you're spinning on a merry go round, in your view, the ball doesn't move straight, it'll like curve to the right. So you got to account for all these things when you're throwing the ball. And so because the earth is spinning, the same effect happens when you like drop a rock from the top of a tower. Or if you've ever been to one of those cool science museums where they have one of those really tall pendulum, it's called the folk pendulum.
But you have to say with a French accent, it's called.
A pendulum foucal. It's an experiment done in the eighteen fifties originally that proved that the earth was spinning. Because you can feel this effect on this pendulum right. The pendulum is like a heavy weight on a very long string, and so it's sensitive to small pushes in various directions. You set the pendulum going back and forth, and then it eventually just starts spinning on its own. And that spinning, of course, is coming from the coriola's force. It's coming from the spin of the Earth.
Right.
So I think all these things kind of add up to that conclusion that we might feel like we're motionless here on Earth, and that even though motionless doesn't mean anything, we still sort of feel motionless. But really there are these strange forces going on, right, because the Earth is spinning and the reference frames are accelerating.
Right, mmmmmmm exactly. And if the Earth was not spinning, if there was no like acceleration, because remember spin is acceleration theren there be no way to measure the Earth's velocity relative to other stuff. So we can measure the Earth's spin only because they is acceleration. It's not just constant velocity. That's a bit counterintuitive because it feels like it's constant because it's a constant rate of spin. But constant spin requires acceleration because it requires a force to move you towards the center of the spin.
All right, well, what about relative to the Sun. That's a pretty stable and almost stationary big thing. Can we be motionless relative to the Sun.
Yeah, that's actually a really interesting question. And you know, the Earth of course is moving pretty fast relative to the Sun, and we should be glad that we are, because it's the reason that we don't just like plunge headfirst into the Sun.
Right.
People think about like, if you're near a black hole, would you just get automatically sucked up? Well, the answer is no, if you can get into orbit around the black hole, And the same thing is true for orbiting around any gravitational object. Like the reason the Earth doesn't fall into the Sun is because we have high speed relative to the Sun. You know, this is the kind of stuff people are talking about with these like New Shepherd and Virgin galactic launches into space. You know, people are saying that's really super cool and awesome, But you know, all they did was sort of like go up into space. The much more difficult thing is to get up into space and then get into orbit because that requires a super fast velocity relative to the Earth. So the Earth is moving relative to the Sun at like thirty kilometers per second, and we should be glad that it is, because otherwise we would fall headfirst into that huge burning ball of plasma.
Oh you mean those commercial flights, they just kind of dip into space.
It don't like. Staying in space is a lot harder.
Yeah, staying in space is a lot harder than like dipping your toes and then coming back to Earth. Like they were just up in space for a few minutes and they just came right back. But you know, what NASA has done, and even SpaceX has done, is much more difficult because you need a much higher velocity to stay in space. Right, Staying in space basically means falling towards the Earth and missing it, sort of like in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. And to do that, you need to be moving fast enough that when you fall towards the Earth, it's sort of not there anymore, just like the motion on the Merry Go Round.
Yeah you like overshoot it.
Yeah, exactly, overshoot it. And so that's what the Earth is doing around the Sun. We're moving at thirty kilometers per second, which is pretty fast, but that's the velocity we need because the Sun's gravity is so strong, that's the velocity. We need to overshoot it every time we fall in towards it.
Wow, well, what about relative to the galaxy? Can we how fast is the Sun moving relative through the galaxy?
The Sun is really zipping around right here. We're talking about gravitational systems, and at the core of the galaxy is an enormous mass of stuff.
Right.
We are sort of like out in the suburbs, where there's like one star every few cubic light years, But in the center of the galaxy, things are much dense or much crazier, right, and they're hot, throbbing urban center. There's an enormous black hole with millions and millions of stars worth of mass and then just lots of stars. And so there's an extraordinarily strong gravitational force on the Sun from the center of the galaxy. And so the Sun is orbiting the center of the galaxy. But to avoid falling into that black hole, it has to move really fast. It moves at eight hundred thousand kilometers per hour relative to the center of the galaxy.
Wow, that's crazy.
Like if you plant the flag in the middle of the galaxy, that's how fast we're moving relative to.
That Yeah, relative to that black hole, we are moving at eight hundred thousand kilometers per hour. It's pretty impressive. But you know, the galaxy is so big that it still takes like two hundred million years for the Sun to go around the center of the galaxy. Like a galactic year is two hundred million earth years.
Wow, that's a long time to wait for your birthday every time. But I think the point is that, you know, you might think that you're motionless here, but actually you're moving relative to the center of the Earth. And actually you might think that the Earth is not moving, but then it's moving relative to the Sun, and the Sun is moving relative to the galaxy by a lot. But then I guess the question is is the galaxy moving relative to anything else?
Right?
I think this sort of goes back to the heart of the original question, which is like can you be motionless in space? Can you like get away from all of this stuff? Or like the other question is like the galaxy itself can it just be hanging out in space? So this is a really interesting question. But again you have to measure the motion of the galaxy relative to other stuff and so now what's the other stuff. Well, you can look at other nearby galaxies and measure like our velocity relative to Andromeda or relative to other galaxies that are nearby, but that's just sort of seems arbitrary. It is just like you know, a random galaxy nearby. What you can do, though, which I think is pretty cool, is you can find the motion of our galaxy relative to like all of the stuff in the universe, like the average of all of the things in the universe.
Interesting I mean in terms of mass or energy or just like to think that it has some sort of like aggregate that's not moving exactly.
We talked earlier about how you can't measure your velocity relative to space itself, right, but you can measure your velocity relative to stuff. And even though there's no preferred location in space, there is stuff in space, right, you can ask, like, is there a velocity where you're not moving relative to like all of the average stuff. And so the way cosmologists do this is they look at the cosmic microwave background radiation. This is the radiation that's left over from the very very early universe, that plasma that was hot and glowing around three hundred and eighty thousand years after the beginning of the universe, the universe became transparent, and that light has been bouncing around ever since then. So that light sort of tells us about where the stuff was in the very early universe, and we can measure our velocity relative to this radiation, which is sort of like measuring your velocity relative to the stuff in the early universe. So while you can't measure your velocity relative to like empty space, space is not empty. It's filled with stuff, and you can actually find a preferred reference frame in which the cosmic microwave background radiation or the plasma that generated it is at rest.
Whoa, WHOA.
I feel like you just kind of pulled a fast one on me, Like at first, you convince me at first that there's no way to have an absolute velocity, But now and you're sort of telling me that there is kind of a way to do it if you depending on how you define what the universe.
Is right exactly, imagine an empty universe. You can't have any velocity in that empty universe. Now put ten galaxies in that universe, you could say, well, I could have a velocity relative to one galaxy or another one, or I could just say, what's my velocity relative to all the stuff? Like, find the average motion of all the stuff in the universe, and you could say that's my velocity, and it's a reasonable definition. It's sort of arbitrary, but it also sort of not arbitrary, because like, there's only one way to choose the average velocity of all the stuff in the universe.
Right, because that is the universe, right, Like who cares is that space is slippery and undefinable and you can't, you know, measure relative to it, and what matters is the stuff in it?
Maybe I guess that, you know, it depends philosophically if you think space is fundamental or mass is fundamental or whatever. I mean, you could also define a frame in which those ten galaxies, your whole universe in this example, is moving right at a billion miles per hour to the left. You know, you could define that reference frame also the universe. Theoretical physics says they're equivalent, But yeah, I think it makes sense to define a reference frame relative to all the stuff in the universe. And the crazy thing is we can kind of do that, and we can do that by looking at the cosmic microwave background radiation and asking are we moving through that radiation at some speed in some direction.
All right, well, let's get into how we can actually tell that velocity relative through the background radiation, and maybe there are other ways to be motionless in the universe. But first, let's take another quick break.
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All right, so it is sort of possible to define motion relative to all the stuff in the universe, not to space, but to all the stuff in the universe. You're saying you can do that through the cosmic microwave background radiation. Now that's the leftover light from the Big Bang. Are you saying that we can tell which way we're moving relative to that kind of glow?
We can, absolutely, because like everything else, we can measure our velocity relative to the stuff that emitted it by using red shifts and blue shifts. Like if a star is moving away from us, then the light that it sends us is red shifted, its wavelength is lengthen it's stretched out because that star is moving away from us. And if a star is moving towards us, then its wavelength is shrunk. It's like squeezed down. It's blue shifted. And when we measure the cosmic microwave background radiation, we notice a very very strong effect that one side of the sky is red shifted and the other side of the sky is blue shifted. So that very clearly gives you a measurement for like our motion through the cosmic microwave background radiation.
Hmmm.
Interesting.
It's sort of like if you stick your head out this side of a moving car. You know, one side of your head would feel the air hitting one side of your face harder than it would on the other side, and then that's how you know that you're moving in a particular direction relative to the air you're moving in.
Yeah, exactly. It's like if you said, well, let's fill the whole universe with air, then all of a sudden, there is a reference frame that makes sense, like your air speed through this universe, right, and it kind of is sort of filled with air. I mean it's not actually air molecules, of course, but it's radiation from the early universe, and we can measure our speed relative to it, like the speed of the cosmic microwave background radiation wind.
Mmmm.
So like if we look in one direction, this microwave background radiation looks a little bluer, and we looked on the other side, it looks a little redder, and that doesn't change I guess, right, it's sort of relative to what frame of motion. I guess you can measure relative to our galaxy.
Right, Yeah, our galaxy is moving through this now. Earth, of course is moving around the Sun, which is moving around the center of the galaxy, so you have to subtract that out. But we measure this as the motion of our galaxy through the CMB, and it's pretty cool. And it's also not that small, Like we're kind of clipping along through the CMB at a pretty healthy rate.
Yeah, it's like millions of kilometers per hour.
Yeah, exactly two point one million kilometers per hour through the CMB. And for those of you who are enthusiasts about the CMB, you might know that we talk a lot about the details of the CNB and like the wiggles in it, how it's a little hotter here and a little colder there, and that corresponds to fascinating information about the nature of the early universe. That's after we subtract out this big red shift and blue shift effect. We sort of like neutralize that, so we can just look at the relative variations here. We're talking about a velocity relative to the CMB. We subtract that out and then we look for these wiggles to extract all sorts of cool physics juice about the universe.
And it has a lot of items. See I imagine or cosmos.
It's probably toxic. You know, everything out there in space will kill you.
We'll give you a good sumburn.
So you just made me think that. You know, the CMB comes from the Big Bang, which is the beginning of the universe, right, So if there was a relative velocity between the CMB, which represents the stuff in the universe, and actual space, then it would have to come from the Big Bang, right Like it would mean that the Big Bang was sort of moving relative to space when it happened.
But that's arbitrary, right. The motion of the CMB relative to space depends on defining a reference frame for space, which doesn't exist. So you can imagine the CMB as stationary in space, or you can imagine the CNB and the Big Bang is like moving through space at a zillion miles per hour. They're totally equivalent, and you can't tell the difference because you can't define a reference frame for space.
Right, But it's kind of weird to think that the Big Bang happened at a zillion miles per hour.
Yeah, it is weird, and it is more natural to define a reference frame for like the stuff. And it's also kind of cool because it feels like a choice was made, right, It feels like, well, the stuff is here and it's not over there, or and it's not moving at this speed. But really it's all relative, right. It feels unnatural to imagine the stuff moving in a million miles per hour. It feels more natural to say, let's choose a reference frame with this stuff is zero. But that's sort of our intuition. It's not like physically meaningful.
So I guess then, you know, if we are moving relative to the CMB, do you know which way we're going? Like, are we moving up like relative to California? Are we moving up down, left right? Relative to the universe? Like can you compute that?
We can compute that, and there is a vector, It doesn't make sense to talk about it relative to California because California is direction through the CMB changes all the time because you know, the Earth is spinning and the Earth is moving around the Sun, and.
Yeah, it's always moving. But at any given time you could compete like, oh, right now, we are technically moving through the stuff in the universe in this direction.
Yeah, yeah, you can do that calculation. In fact, maybe we should make a website for that. That would be pretty fun for people to see where we're moving through the universe and how fast we're going at any particular time.
Yeah.
Now, is it possible then to be sort of motionless relative to the sea? Are there spots in the universe or could we you know, as we're moving and spinning and moving through the galaxy and the Solar System, could we at some for an instant be not moving relative to the CMB.
Yeah, that is totally possible. And astronomers an astrophysicists call this peculiar velocity because you know, like on average, all the stuff is stationary relative to the CMB, but you know, nothing is stationary. Everything is like switching around and moving relative to each other, like our galaxy and the next galaxy over Andromeda are moving towards each other, for example. But it is possible. We just don't happen to be stationary relative to the CMB. But you could like get in a spaceship, fly out between galaxies, measure your velocity relative to the CNB and like perfectly adjusted so that you're not moving.
So it is sort of technically possible to be motionless relative to the to the stuff in the universe, yes, but not to space, but to the stuff in the universe. You could, you know, fly out there, go two point one million kilometers per hour in the right direction, and you might achieve a velocity that make you still relative to the entire universe.
Yeah, exactly, you would have no average velocity relative to all the stuff in the universe. You know, that wouldn't change like special relativity effects because those things are still relative to other observers and stuff like that. But yeah, you could be motionless relative to the stuff in the universe.
Hmmm, that's pretty cool to think that there is it is possible to achieve that, And I wonder if we sort of sometimes sort of achieve it, right, like as we're spinning around the Earth, and as the Earth is spinning around the Sun. Or do you think that because the galaxy is moving so fast that there's no way we can sort of cancel out that motion.
Yeah, our motion relative to the CMB as the galaxy is much greater than even the Sun's motion through the galaxy. Right, Like, the galaxy is moving at two point one million kilometers per hour through the CMB. The Sun is moving in eight hundred thousand kilometers per hour. So even if the Sun was moving in just the right direction like the post, using the galaxy's motion through the CMB, it would still only reduce it down to like, you know, one point three million kilometers per hour, or it can make it even faster up to like you know, almost three million kilometers per hour. But we don't ever actually achieve zero velocity relative to the CMB.
Interesting, but it is possible, which I think is pretty cool. But there is one last sort of confounding factor, which is the fact that space is expanding. Now, how does that affect this possibility of being motionless relative to the universe.
Yeah, it confuses everything, you know, because we're not just talking about objects being static in space. Right, space is expanding, which means new space is being made between things. Right, so you have a bunch of different things happening at once. You have like the universe expanding, so that even if nothing was moving relative to any of the other stuff, still distances between things would be growing because space is being created between us and other galaxies, which is like whole mind bending concept of its own, right. But then we're also interested in that motion, like are we moving relative to Andromeda? Where's our galaxy going? So cosmologists separate this out into two pieces. They say, all right, there's the expansion of the whole universe, which is like happens in the same level the same way everywhere between us and other galaxies, between me and you, between the Earth and the Sun, all this stuff. And then there's this sort of local motion, like we call this peculiar velocity relative to that expansion. And so astronomers to find these things called co moving coordinates, where you basically subtract out the expansion of the universe and say, let's just isolate the peculiar velocity, the stuff that's like only due to like local gravity.
M I guess I'm not sure quite what that means. Does that mean that it is not possible to find that spot where you're not moving relative to the universe because the universe is also expanding, so things will be sort of moving relative to you even if you find that spot.
No, I think it still makes sense. I mean, find that spot where you're not moving relative to the CMB. Now everything is expanding away from you, but that's true wherever you are, so it doesn't change your average velocity relative to the CMB because things are moving away from you always in every direction, so the average velocity still would be zero. It does mean that everything is moving away from you always, and so nothing is really ever at rest. But you could still have average velocity of zero relative to all the stuff in the universe, even though that stuff is expanding. Like imagine you're standing on the surface of a sphere and you find a spot where you're not moving relative to like all the average stuff in the universe. Now that sphere is expanding, so everything's getting bigger, but you're sort of still at the center of all those velocities, right.
I see, Like the universe could be getting bigger, but you can still be still relative to all of it. Yes, even though it's growing.
Yes, as long as you're defining your reference frame to be like the average motion of all the stuff in the universe.
Right, and as long as the universe is not finite, because if it is finite, then you kind of have to find the center of mass, or you have to kind of find the sweet spot center in order are for really to be motionless?
All right?
Well, there is another interesting scenario, which is this idea that you can move through time or not move through time. I'm not sure, so, Daniel, how does time fit into this idea of being motionless in space?
Yeah? I think a lot of people think about our motion through space when they read time travel novels, because sometimes you have, like your protagonist creates a time travel device and they go back in time, and then the astute reader things, hold on a second. If you're going back in time, aren't you going to miss the Earth? Like the Earth is moving around the Sun. If you go back in time a month, you should be in deep space, right? Don't you need to move through time and space in order to catch up with the Earth. So a lot of readers write into me with this quibble about the science fiction novels.
They read, right, because like a million years ago, the Earth was not in the same spot at all, right, because the galaxy is technically moving a couple million miles per hour.
Yeah, sort of, And it's a fair point because things are in motion, and so you need to move sort of through time and through space. But again, it sort of depends on your reference frame. If your reference frame is like the center of the Earth, then you know, none of that motion is really relevant and it doesn't affect like how time works or how space works. If your reference frame is the center of the galaxy, then it does kind of matter. And so it sort of depends on like when you're programming your time machine, what coordinates does it take? You know, is it taking its coordinates relative to the center of the galaxy, in which case you better be careful about how you type them in, or is it taking its coordinates relative to the Earth.
For example, Right, But the problem is that the Earth is accelerating, and the and the galaxies and the Solar System is accelerating, So it would probably be really really complicated, right to sort of keep that same reference frame.
Exactly, And so if you're going to move through time, you need to also be moving through space to make sure you land in the right spot.
M some good advice for when we when I build that time machine.
Or at least good advice for science fiction authors when you write time travel into your novel, at least make sure to include this so that our listeners don't get annoyed.
Right right, You know you have to add the caveat that it's a space time machine, not just a time machine.
Exactly, exactly, every working time travel machine is actually a space time travel machine.
There you go. HG.
Wells got it totally wrong. We should have men its titles.
Too bad. We can't have him on the podcast. If we had a time machine, we could have him on the podcast.
Yeah, but he would be in a totally different place in the universe. You're right, we'd be interviewing him from two million miles away. All right, Well, I think that answers the question pretty well. Can you be motionless in space? The answer is no, But you could be motionless relative to the stuff in the universe, which is pretty much the universe, right Like you could you could technically be motionless relative to the stuff.
In the universe, just not relative to space.
Well, you just demoted space to not be like an important part of the nature of the universe. That's kind of a big deal.
I think I demoted a relative to the question in the podcast episode, but no disrespect to space.
I like space. I like my space.
But yeah, we hope you enjoy Dad. Thanks for joining us, See you next time.
Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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