Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

To the trial and Delphi, two beautiful little girls found dead, the ground beneath them.

To the trial and Delphi, two beautiful little girls found dead, the ground beneath them.

Saturated in blood.

Saturated in blood.

As a digital expert and a medical examiner take the stand, we also learned the suspect confesses over sixty one times to the little girl's murders, to the point his wife says on the phone, stop talking. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Now we know why the girls' clothing was soaked.

As a digital expert and a medical examiner take the stand, we also learned the suspect confesses over sixty one times to the little girl's murders, to the point his wife says on the phone, stop talking. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Now we know why the girls' clothing was soaked.

There were about three different areas where the clothing was in the creek. All of the clothing that was collected from the creek was inside out. The gray hoodie that you see Abbey wearing there was found submerged in the creek. Libby was completely nude, and Abby was wearing Libby's jeans and Puddy along with a gray sports fraud that we believe belonged to Abby.

There were about three different areas where the clothing was in the creek. All of the clothing that was collected from the creek was inside out. The gray hoodie that you see Abbey wearing there was found submerged in the creek. Libby was completely nude, and Abby was wearing Libby's jeans and Puddy along with a gray sports fraud that we believe belonged to Abby.

Forensic pathologist doctor Roland Core performed autopsies on Libby and Abby. He did Abby's autopsy first and said she suffered one large, gaping wound in the neck. It was a one inch deep, three inch long incision wound of her neck. Abby also had a faint mark under her mouth, which doctor Corr said could be from dunct tape or cloth, but she didn't show any signs of restrained wounds. She also showed no sign of blunt force trauma. Doctor Corr also said that even though a rape kit showed no overt injury pattern, that it doesn't mean that sexual contact did not occur.

Forensic pathologist doctor Roland Core performed autopsies on Libby and Abby. He did Abby's autopsy first and said she suffered one large, gaping wound in the neck. It was a one inch deep, three inch long incision wound of her neck. Abby also had a faint mark under her mouth, which doctor Corr said could be from dunct tape or cloth, but she didn't show any signs of restrained wounds. She also showed no sign of blunt force trauma. Doctor Corr also said that even though a rape kit showed no overt injury pattern, that it doesn't mean that sexual contact did not occur.

Believe it or not, online, all sorts of bizarre conspiracy theories are sprouting. What we learned in court, A rape kit was performed and apparently no sex tech could be proven from what was found on the bodies.

Believe it or not, online, all sorts of bizarre conspiracy theories are sprouting. What we learned in court, A rape kit was performed and apparently no sex tech could be proven from what was found on the bodies.

Then why were the girls naked?

Then why were the girls naked?

Why were they forced a strip out in the middle of nowhere in that cold temperature. So much happening in the courtroom, and we are live at the courthouse. Joining me right now investigative reporter and court TV documentary producer Barbara McDonald. She is the co host and producer of an incredible podcast, Down the Heel Podcast. Barbara, Thank you for being with us.

Why were they forced a strip out in the middle of nowhere in that cold temperature. So much happening in the courtroom, and we are live at the courthouse. Joining me right now investigative reporter and court TV documentary producer Barbara McDonald. She is the co host and producer of an incredible podcast, Down the Heel Podcast. Barbara, Thank you for being with us.

Now.

Now.

What we are learning is the medical examiner performed one autopsy. Of course, then the next we are learning that there is no evidence on the bodies to suggest a sex assault. Of course, the girls were stripped naked, so I'm not sure where that's going. I don't need sperm or DNA to tell me that they were naked and murdered for a sexual purpose, but there was also a lot of digital information. I'll start first with the autopsies.

What we are learning is the medical examiner performed one autopsy. Of course, then the next we are learning that there is no evidence on the bodies to suggest a sex assault. Of course, the girls were stripped naked, so I'm not sure where that's going. I don't need sperm or DNA to tell me that they were naked and murdered for a sexual purpose, but there was also a lot of digital information. I'll start first with the autopsies.

Listen, Doctor Rowland Corer performed Libby Germans autopsy. After completing Abby Williams autopsy, doctor Corr notes that Libby had anywhere from three to five incision wounds on the right side of her neck, with the longest being about three and a half inches. Libby also shows no sign of overt sexual trauma or defensive wounds. Doctor Corr estimated Abby and Libby died about forty one hours before the autopsy.

Listen, Doctor Rowland Corer performed Libby Germans autopsy. After completing Abby Williams autopsy, doctor Corr notes that Libby had anywhere from three to five incision wounds on the right side of her neck, with the longest being about three and a half inches. Libby also shows no sign of overt sexual trauma or defensive wounds. Doctor Corr estimated Abby and Libby died about forty one hours before the autopsy.

To Barbara McDonald, tell me first the jury's reaction during the medical examiner's testimony.

To Barbara McDonald, tell me first the jury's reaction during the medical examiner's testimony.

The jury is paying very very close attention. They are able to take notes, They have notebooks. They also get copies of most of the exhibits that are shown in court and have a file folder at their chairs where they're able to keep track of all of that information. As documents are handed to them. I do notice they look them over, they make notes. They make notes during the testimony there's one jur in particular who's sitting in chair number twelve, and he has taken a lot of notes throughout this entire trial. I also see when he is not taking notes that he is studying the families of the victims, the family of the defendant as well as the defendant in both sets of attorneys. He's paying very close attention.

The jury is paying very very close attention. They are able to take notes, They have notebooks. They also get copies of most of the exhibits that are shown in court and have a file folder at their chairs where they're able to keep track of all of that information. As documents are handed to them. I do notice they look them over, they make notes. They make notes during the testimony there's one jur in particular who's sitting in chair number twelve, and he has taken a lot of notes throughout this entire trial. I also see when he is not taking notes that he is studying the families of the victims, the family of the defendant as well as the defendant in both sets of attorneys. He's paying very close attention.

Nancy to fellow debate joining US high profile lawyer and LA County public defender. What does that mean? It means he spends his life in the courtroom just like a prosecutor. But on the other side debay, you know, and a lot of jurisdictions judges will not let gurrors take notes. Believe it or not, I find that antiquated, but I understand what the judges are thinking.

Nancy to fellow debate joining US high profile lawyer and LA County public defender. What does that mean? It means he spends his life in the courtroom just like a prosecutor. But on the other side debay, you know, and a lot of jurisdictions judges will not let gurrors take notes. Believe it or not, I find that antiquated, but I understand what the judges are thinking.

They don't want the gurrors to rely on their notes.

They don't want the gurrors to rely on their notes.

They want them to rely on their collective memory as to the testimony and evidence.

They want them to rely on their collective memory as to the testimony and evidence.

And also debay.

And also debay.

One of the reasonings behind that, to which I disagree, by the way, But another reasoning is say number twelve takes the best notes. I guess when you were in law school, you're in a study group, and whoever had the best notes became the authority whether they were or they were not, because everybody passed around notes. Not me, of course, but a bit you did. Long story short, you don't want the jury to rely on number twelve, what if he's wrong. They are to rely on their collective memories as to the testimony and evidence. But I find it very interesting that jural number twelve, who is taking copious notes, continues to look over at the victims' families jump in, well, yeah.

One of the reasonings behind that, to which I disagree, by the way, But another reasoning is say number twelve takes the best notes. I guess when you were in law school, you're in a study group, and whoever had the best notes became the authority whether they were or they were not, because everybody passed around notes. Not me, of course, but a bit you did. Long story short, you don't want the jury to rely on number twelve, what if he's wrong. They are to rely on their collective memories as to the testimony and evidence. But I find it very interesting that jural number twelve, who is taking copious notes, continues to look over at the victims' families jump in, well, yeah.

Of course they are, because when you really think about it, the demeanor of everybody in court has an emotional impact on the jury. What I'd like to know is if Richard Allen's family is there, because to be fair to him, they should be looking at the emotional impact that the false allegations against him are having on the family. So it works both ways. If you only focus on the victim's family, then I'm not sure that that jury is necessarily be fair. And one other quick comment. I think the theory behind not allowing note taking by the jurors is they don't feel you're going to be paying attention to the evidence if you've got your head down writing notes into a stenopad. I agree with you. It's antiquated. It's absurd and frankly, why couldn't they all put their collective notes together when they're deliberating and share their thoughts. And if there is a dispute, you can always go back into court for readback.

Of course they are, because when you really think about it, the demeanor of everybody in court has an emotional impact on the jury. What I'd like to know is if Richard Allen's family is there, because to be fair to him, they should be looking at the emotional impact that the false allegations against him are having on the family. So it works both ways. If you only focus on the victim's family, then I'm not sure that that jury is necessarily be fair. And one other quick comment. I think the theory behind not allowing note taking by the jurors is they don't feel you're going to be paying attention to the evidence if you've got your head down writing notes into a stenopad. I agree with you. It's antiquated. It's absurd and frankly, why couldn't they all put their collective notes together when they're deliberating and share their thoughts. And if there is a dispute, you can always go back into court for readback.

And I can assure everyone that the grrs, even though nobody's told me this, are not allowed to take their notes or the physical exhibits of which they have copies with them at the end of the day to study when they are alone at night. They cannot discuss this or begin deliberations in any form until all the evidence is in Back to Barbara McDonald, we are live at the courthouse bringing you the very latest. So I understand the medical examiner performed Abby's autopsy first, then Libby's. Now Libby was found nude. Abby was found dressed in the wrong clothes, in some of Libby's clothes.

And I can assure everyone that the grrs, even though nobody's told me this, are not allowed to take their notes or the physical exhibits of which they have copies with them at the end of the day to study when they are alone at night. They cannot discuss this or begin deliberations in any form until all the evidence is in Back to Barbara McDonald, we are live at the courthouse bringing you the very latest. So I understand the medical examiner performed Abby's autopsy first, then Libby's. Now Libby was found nude. Abby was found dressed in the wrong clothes, in some of Libby's clothes.

How do you see the difference in the wounds?

How do you see the difference in the wounds?

And I want Scott Morgan, Professor forensics, death investigator, and doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, to listen carefully right now to Barbara McDonald. I've got a lot of questions which only the.

And I want Scott Morgan, Professor forensics, death investigator, and doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, to listen carefully right now to Barbara McDonald. I've got a lot of questions which only the.

Two of you can answer. What do you hear, Barbara.

Two of you can answer. What do you hear, Barbara.

We not only saw the images of these wounds, some very close up images of the wounds, but listen to that forensic pathologist, doctor Roland Core for the better part of the day testifying, and the wounds to Libby were much more brutal, rough they were larger, they went more in an up and down pattern on her neck, whereas Libby or Abby rather just had the one cut and it was a bit cleaner. It was described as a gape wound, but there were no other injuries around that. Libby did have some other injuries. She even had a cut on her right shoulder that they described as minor, but it didn't look minor to me. It looked like if you were even sustained that cut, that it would have bled quite a bit and probably been painful. They didn't offer any sort of explanation about what happened to cause that wound or why the killer would have put a wound there. It definitely was not a life threatening wound at all.

We not only saw the images of these wounds, some very close up images of the wounds, but listen to that forensic pathologist, doctor Roland Core for the better part of the day testifying, and the wounds to Libby were much more brutal, rough they were larger, they went more in an up and down pattern on her neck, whereas Libby or Abby rather just had the one cut and it was a bit cleaner. It was described as a gape wound, but there were no other injuries around that. Libby did have some other injuries. She even had a cut on her right shoulder that they described as minor, but it didn't look minor to me. It looked like if you were even sustained that cut, that it would have bled quite a bit and probably been painful. They didn't offer any sort of explanation about what happened to cause that wound or why the killer would have put a wound there. It definitely was not a life threatening wound at all.

One thing I heard in the testimony, Barbara, is that one of the girls hands indicated well they were bloody, and from the position of the body it appeared as if she had tried.

One thing I heard in the testimony, Barbara, is that one of the girls hands indicated well they were bloody, and from the position of the body it appeared as if she had tried.

To stop.

To stop.

The blood flow, try to stem the flow of blood from her neck.

The blood flow, try to stem the flow of blood from her neck.

One of the things that doctor Corr testified to is that he believes that both girls would have lived for about five to ten minutes following the infliction of these injuries, that at some point have become unconscious from the blood loss before they actually died. But that, yes, he said that the blood on Libby's hands was evidence to him that she had put her hands at her throat to try to keep that keep the blood in. That that's a natural reaction that you would want to cover that wound and apply pressure as much as you could.

One of the things that doctor Corr testified to is that he believes that both girls would have lived for about five to ten minutes following the infliction of these injuries, that at some point have become unconscious from the blood loss before they actually died. But that, yes, he said that the blood on Libby's hands was evidence to him that she had put her hands at her throat to try to keep that keep the blood in. That that's a natural reaction that you would want to cover that wound and apply pressure as much as you could.

So what you're telling me, Barbara McDonald is the girls did not have a quick death.

So what you're telling me, Barbara McDonald is the girls did not have a quick death.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

To you, Jesseph Scott Morton, from what we hear from the witness stand that Libby, the child that was left nude, suffered much worse.

To you, Jesseph Scott Morton, from what we hear from the witness stand that Libby, the child that was left nude, suffered much worse.

Of course, they're all horrible.

Of course, they're all horrible.

All the wounds are horrible to both girls, but Libby's wounds seem to be worse. And we know because there was swelling to one of the girl's brains, that they survived long enough to lie there on their backs, one naked, one had been naked, soaking wet from being forced through that creek, the ground saturating in blood beneath them.

All the wounds are horrible to both girls, but Libby's wounds seem to be worse. And we know because there was swelling to one of the girl's brains, that they survived long enough to lie there on their backs, one naked, one had been naked, soaking wet from being forced through that creek, the ground saturating in blood beneath them.

They laid there and they looked up at the sky.

They laid there and they looked up at the sky.

The last face they saw was whoever killed them. I want to hear your analysis because another thing that came up in court was that the medical examiner could not tell whether the purp was left handed or right handed. That's total bs because you can tell from a wound, for instance, which side is deeper.

The last face they saw was whoever killed them. I want to hear your analysis because another thing that came up in court was that the medical examiner could not tell whether the purp was left handed or right handed. That's total bs because you can tell from a wound, for instance, which side is deeper.

And then it trails off.

And then it trails off.

I mean, I don't know why they're saying that, but first your analysis to the wounds on Libby and Abby, and this is critical, Joe Scott.

I mean, I don't know why they're saying that, but first your analysis to the wounds on Libby and Abby, and this is critical, Joe Scott.

I find it interesting that Libby has got what could be termed as multiple injuries to her neck. Let's keep in mind Libby was an athlete. She had played softball and was very active. Abby is described as more passive. I think that Libby resisted probably now there's no evidence of defensive wounds per se. However, she does have this and I didn't know this until Barbara had mentioned it. This rather interesting injury that she has to the shoulder. I thought, you know, particularly, I was wondering, is this a post mortem? Injury because you know, Barbara said something interesting per her view of this image. She said, there wasn't blood, but it looked like something that had bled or should have bled. And they didn't offer much more of an explanation. But back to the wounds in the neck, you've gotten multiple multiple cuts that are here, probably three to five, and so they're kind of communicating in that area. It would give you an indication that either he was perhaps not feeling that he was hitting the correct depth as he is taking this blade and drawing it across her neck, or he was punishing her in some way. Let's keep in mind, Nancy, leave me someone that's nude here. I have always held that I felt as though that she was probably targeted in some way, and this just goes to that point.

I find it interesting that Libby has got what could be termed as multiple injuries to her neck. Let's keep in mind Libby was an athlete. She had played softball and was very active. Abby is described as more passive. I think that Libby resisted probably now there's no evidence of defensive wounds per se. However, she does have this and I didn't know this until Barbara had mentioned it. This rather interesting injury that she has to the shoulder. I thought, you know, particularly, I was wondering, is this a post mortem? Injury because you know, Barbara said something interesting per her view of this image. She said, there wasn't blood, but it looked like something that had bled or should have bled. And they didn't offer much more of an explanation. But back to the wounds in the neck, you've gotten multiple multiple cuts that are here, probably three to five, and so they're kind of communicating in that area. It would give you an indication that either he was perhaps not feeling that he was hitting the correct depth as he is taking this blade and drawing it across her neck, or he was punishing her in some way. Let's keep in mind, Nancy, leave me someone that's nude here. I have always held that I felt as though that she was probably targeted in some way, and this just goes to that point.

I think even further, Well, what do you here to say about it being argued in court that it cannot be determined if the part was left or right handed.

I think even further, Well, what do you here to say about it being argued in court that it cannot be determined if the part was left or right handed.

Yeah, you make a good point, because if you could just keep me up just for a second, if you begin to think about, and I think this is what you're getting at, if you have a right handed individual that's with building a knife from the rear from the rear. Okay, that cut you would think is probably going to be higher. The blade is going to be drug And this is just this is just the mechanics of how we move as a blade is being drug. It starts off high and then like you said, after it crosses the center point of the neck, it'll generally trail off and that gives you an indication there's a lack of pressure at the end. Generally, the starting of this is going to have more pressure if the individual is right hand dependent that the depth here, particularly if it's on this side of the neck, is going to give you an indication of handedness. But many times forensic pathologists are hesitant to make this assessment and really hang their hat on it because it's not necessarily quantitative science. It's kind of a qualitative opinion.

Yeah, you make a good point, because if you could just keep me up just for a second, if you begin to think about, and I think this is what you're getting at, if you have a right handed individual that's with building a knife from the rear from the rear. Okay, that cut you would think is probably going to be higher. The blade is going to be drug And this is just this is just the mechanics of how we move as a blade is being drug. It starts off high and then like you said, after it crosses the center point of the neck, it'll generally trail off and that gives you an indication there's a lack of pressure at the end. Generally, the starting of this is going to have more pressure if the individual is right hand dependent that the depth here, particularly if it's on this side of the neck, is going to give you an indication of handedness. But many times forensic pathologists are hesitant to make this assessment and really hang their hat on it because it's not necessarily quantitative science. It's kind of a qualitative opinion.

Well, it makes sense to me, like two and two equals four. I understand that right.

Well, it makes sense to me, like two and two equals four. I understand that right.

And when you slash, you have naturally and everybody can try this at home. When you slash something like you're breaking into a box, your momentum is at the beginning when you start that slash and then you pull back.

And when you slash, you have naturally and everybody can try this at home. When you slash something like you're breaking into a box, your momentum is at the beginning when you start that slash and then you pull back.

Think of opening up a FedEx or ups.

Think of opening up a FedEx or ups.

Yes, slash and pull back right, your velocity is stronger at the beginning.

Yes, slash and pull back right, your velocity is stronger at the beginning.

Yeah, and this subject would have had if it is him. You know he worked with a box cutter regularly. We've heard this term box cutter over and over again. I think that's something interesting to explore here. But Nancy, you're doing I got to tell you, I don't necessarily you made a very quick slashing movement. I don't know that it was quick. It may have been.

Yeah, and this subject would have had if it is him. You know he worked with a box cutter regularly. We've heard this term box cutter over and over again. I think that's something interesting to explore here. But Nancy, you're doing I got to tell you, I don't necessarily you made a very quick slashing movement. I don't know that it was quick. It may have been.

Drawn out joining me Dodger Bethany Marshall, Right, now it's like Oana is joining us from.

Drawn out joining me Dodger Bethany Marshall, Right, now it's like Oana is joining us from.

Beverly Hills, Doctor Bethany.

Beverly Hills, Doctor Bethany.

A lot of questions and if you could be concise on this one girl obviously, as Joscott Morgan said, the main target both of them, a brutally murder, both of them stripped. What does it say to you and why the half hearted effort of redressing one girl and not the other?

A lot of questions and if you could be concise on this one girl obviously, as Joscott Morgan said, the main target both of them, a brutally murder, both of them stripped. What does it say to you and why the half hearted effort of redressing one girl and not the other?

Well, I think there this was a sexually motivated crime. There was a lot of practicing in anticipation of the crime, thinking about how he would kill the girls. So perhaps two different mos on each girl, redressing them because you wanted to come back and have sex with them. This is what them was that the infliction of cruelty caused the sexual excitement coming back was to take advantage of the girls, but he wasn't able to do that, but he had to dress them to preserve the bodies.

Well, I think there this was a sexually motivated crime. There was a lot of practicing in anticipation of the crime, thinking about how he would kill the girls. So perhaps two different mos on each girl, redressing them because you wanted to come back and have sex with them. This is what them was that the infliction of cruelty caused the sexual excitement coming back was to take advantage of the girls, but he wasn't able to do that, but he had to dress them to preserve the bodies.

I think that for each item that's there, there's a potential he was throwing these items in front of these children.

I think that for each item that's there, there's a potential he was throwing these items in front of these children.

I can imagine these Portalle girls screaming and crying and just.

I can imagine these Portalle girls screaming and crying and just.

So distract You're watching these young girls being humiliated relative to exposure of their bodies to this creepy guy.

So distract You're watching these young girls being humiliated relative to exposure of their bodies to this creepy guy.

To degrade, to.

To degrade, to.

Humiliate, and to force them into sexual submission.

Humiliate, and to force them into sexual submission.

How menacing. You're going to push these girls to do whatever you want them to do, and then afterwards, afterwards, you're going to redress bodies.

How menacing. You're going to push these girls to do whatever you want them to do, and then afterwards, afterwards, you're going to redress bodies.

Joining us at the courthouse, Barbara McDonald, core TV documentary producer, co host of Down the Hill podcast, Barbara, I want to focus very quickly on what I consider to be very very powerful evidence, and that is the digital pings and geographic pinpoints.

Joining us at the courthouse, Barbara McDonald, core TV documentary producer, co host of Down the Hill podcast, Barbara, I want to focus very quickly on what I consider to be very very powerful evidence, and that is the digital pings and geographic pinpoints.

Of the girls' phones.

Of the girls' phones.

And also what we're hearing, and this is very significant, is that these phones can be tracked altitudinally. In other words, as the girls go down the heel, you can see an altitudinal change in the pinging information, and I'm very curious. I want everyone to hear what we're hearing in the courtroom. And I'm wondering about the defendant, Allan's phone because remember in Alex Murdog's trial, which is a great example of this, that's why keep using it. His phone travels with his dead wife's Maggie's phone briefly before her phone is thrown out of the window, and the traveling together is very very probative. So, first of all, if you could explain the crux of the digital information regarding the girls phones and what if anything, we know about the suspects phone.

And also what we're hearing, and this is very significant, is that these phones can be tracked altitudinally. In other words, as the girls go down the heel, you can see an altitudinal change in the pinging information, and I'm very curious. I want everyone to hear what we're hearing in the courtroom. And I'm wondering about the defendant, Allan's phone because remember in Alex Murdog's trial, which is a great example of this, that's why keep using it. His phone travels with his dead wife's Maggie's phone briefly before her phone is thrown out of the window, and the traveling together is very very probative. So, first of all, if you could explain the crux of the digital information regarding the girls phones and what if anything, we know about the suspects phone.

So we know from the digital evidence the last movement of Libby's phone was about two point thirty two pm on the thirteenth, and they were approached on the bridge. That video that she made happened at two thirteen pm. So it certainly sounds like what they're implying with this evidence is that by the time two thirty two hits that phone is at the crime scene, it no longer moved. We also heard that Richard Allen had twenty three devices that were collected in that search of his home. None of them were the phone that he was carrying back in twenty seventeen. We know that because when he gave that first statement to law enforcement days after the murders, they wrote down the unique idea of the phone that he was carrying at the time. That device was not found, they said, in the devices that were recovered. Though there were searches about the case, but they don't know who made those searches.

So we know from the digital evidence the last movement of Libby's phone was about two point thirty two pm on the thirteenth, and they were approached on the bridge. That video that she made happened at two thirteen pm. So it certainly sounds like what they're implying with this evidence is that by the time two thirty two hits that phone is at the crime scene, it no longer moved. We also heard that Richard Allen had twenty three devices that were collected in that search of his home. None of them were the phone that he was carrying back in twenty seventeen. We know that because when he gave that first statement to law enforcement days after the murders, they wrote down the unique idea of the phone that he was carrying at the time. That device was not found, they said, in the devices that were recovered. Though there were searches about the case, but they don't know who made those searches.

Nancy question, So you're telling me the device that Alan carried in twenty seventeen disappeared.

Nancy question, So you're telling me the device that Alan carried in twenty seventeen disappeared.

It was not found. Did he give any explanation about where a cell phone is?

It was not found. Did he give any explanation about where a cell phone is?

No?

No?

Okay, so his cell phone physically is gone, but can it still be pained.

Okay, so his cell phone physically is gone, but can it still be pained.

They have not said whether they were able to retrieve any data through his phone provider or anything like that. I don't know if other witnesses are going to come in that we'll talk about that part of the investigation. The gentleman who was on the stand yesterday, this first Sergeant Christopher Cecil, did say that over the course of these years since this murder happened, every time there's new technology or a software update in any of the programs they use, they go back and relook at this information. See if they can uncover more data.

They have not said whether they were able to retrieve any data through his phone provider or anything like that. I don't know if other witnesses are going to come in that we'll talk about that part of the investigation. The gentleman who was on the stand yesterday, this first Sergeant Christopher Cecil, did say that over the course of these years since this murder happened, every time there's new technology or a software update in any of the programs they use, they go back and relook at this information. See if they can uncover more data.

Isn't it true that an expert stated there is no indication that Libby's phone was ever turned off? Correct?

Isn't it true that an expert stated there is no indication that Libby's phone was ever turned off? Correct?

So what does that mean to you?

So what does that mean to you?

Barbara McDonald, It's interesting the phone was found at the crime scene. The defense is certainly making the argument that the girls and that phone left the scene sometime on the thirteenth and were brought back the following day. What this Apple health data shows is that that phone did not move once it got to that crime scene about two point thirty two pm. It did not move after that. I suppose it's entirely possible that the girls left the scene, if that is something the defense can prove, but the phone seems to have stayed there.

Barbara McDonald, It's interesting the phone was found at the crime scene. The defense is certainly making the argument that the girls and that phone left the scene sometime on the thirteenth and were brought back the following day. What this Apple health data shows is that that phone did not move once it got to that crime scene about two point thirty two pm. It did not move after that. I suppose it's entirely possible that the girls left the scene, if that is something the defense can prove, but the phone seems to have stayed there.

But he could not.

But he could not.

There were a lot of questions that even the jurors asked him that he did not have answers for. And he does not know when Libby's phone lost power. That is information that the jury will not ever have because they can't determine that.

There were a lot of questions that even the jurors asked him that he did not have answers for. And he does not know when Libby's phone lost power. That is information that the jury will not ever have because they can't determine that.

Hold on.

Hold on.

What about are you saying the Apple phone or the Apple watt never left the scene.

What about are you saying the Apple phone or the Apple watt never left the scene.

There was only one device found at the scene, and it was Libby's iPhone six.

There was only one device found at the scene, and it was Libby's iPhone six.

S okay and okay.

S okay and okay.

So when we're hearing about the help, the help app, it's not a wat, it's just the app on the phone.

So when we're hearing about the help, the help app, it's not a wat, it's just the app on the phone.

It's that.

It's that.

Yeah, it's when you open up your iPhone and it records your steps and your movements and all of that. They're using that information from Libby's iPhone.

Yeah, it's when you open up your iPhone and it records your steps and your movements and all of that. They're using that information from Libby's iPhone.

Let me follow up with Joe Scott Morgan.

Let me follow up with Joe Scott Morgan.

Joe Scott, the earth around the girls was completely saturated with blood, and that tells me that is the location of the murders. I mean, I don't know how they're going to spin out. The cell phone going quiet and dead and then suddenly connecting to a cell phone tower and all of the earlier messages come in. I mean the messages were coming in from the relatives going hey, text me, now where are you?

Joe Scott, the earth around the girls was completely saturated with blood, and that tells me that is the location of the murders. I mean, I don't know how they're going to spin out. The cell phone going quiet and dead and then suddenly connecting to a cell phone tower and all of the earlier messages come in. I mean the messages were coming in from the relatives going hey, text me, now where are you?

And those are from hours and hours before.

And those are from hours and hours before.

To me, as a layperson, as it relates to digital data, it means that that is when the phone made that connection to a cell tower. It happens all the time when suddenly you connect and you get a torrent of texts. That's not that hard for me to understand. But the blood, the blood satur the earth tells me that is where the girls were killed.

To me, as a layperson, as it relates to digital data, it means that that is when the phone made that connection to a cell tower. It happens all the time when suddenly you connect and you get a torrent of texts. That's not that hard for me to understand. But the blood, the blood satur the earth tells me that is where the girls were killed.

Yeah, it does, and there's you know, these are to say the very least, these are catastrophic injuries and this is not something that would that would facilitate them moving anywhere else. They were killed in that spot. They came to rest there, Nancy.

Yeah, it does, and there's you know, these are to say the very least, these are catastrophic injuries and this is not something that would that would facilitate them moving anywhere else. They were killed in that spot. They came to rest there, Nancy.

To Barbara McDonald, one of the jurors.

To Barbara McDonald, one of the jurors.

Well, they asked a lot of questions and they passed the questions, I guess to the bailiff, and then the judge ultimately gets the questions, and the judge asked those questions on behalf of the jury. One of the questions which I found very interesting is was the earth under the leaves under one of the girls disturbed?

Well, they asked a lot of questions and they passed the questions, I guess to the bailiff, and then the judge ultimately gets the questions, and the judge asked those questions on behalf of the jury. One of the questions which I found very interesting is was the earth under the leaves under one of the girls disturbed?

Tell me about that jurar question?

Tell me about that jurar question?

Yeah, And I forget exactly which witness that was that they were talking to. I believe it was the lead crime scene investigator of brian Ola High and he testified that when they removed the bodies that there was nothing underneath that had been disturbed. The leaves were all in place, there were no areas of exposed dirt, whereas away from the bodies there were areas where it looked like the leaves had been moved and the dirt was exposed. He didn't really offer an explanation about why those weren't disturbed other than that the girls did not move once they were in those positions.

Yeah, And I forget exactly which witness that was that they were talking to. I believe it was the lead crime scene investigator of brian Ola High and he testified that when they removed the bodies that there was nothing underneath that had been disturbed. The leaves were all in place, there were no areas of exposed dirt, whereas away from the bodies there were areas where it looked like the leaves had been moved and the dirt was exposed. He didn't really offer an explanation about why those weren't disturbed other than that the girls did not move once they were in those positions.

Well, that makes perfect sense, Borba McDonald. But what do you believe the juror is getting at the jurors.

Well, that makes perfect sense, Borba McDonald. But what do you believe the juror is getting at the jurors.

Some of the questions have been very easy to understand from them, and some of them have been a little bit more perplexing. It's hard to tell exactly what the mindset of that juror is, but the jurors are paying very close attention and when they ask questions, they are very very specific. The other thing that's very differ difficult to tell is which juror is asking which question because at the end of testimony, once both sides of attorneys are done, the jurors simply submit their questions on a piece of paper to the judge. The judge meets with the attorneys behind a monitor and plays static in the court so we can't hear their conversation, and then she comes out and reads it and she does not identify which juror is asking the question, whether it's one dur or multiple jurors for those questions.

Some of the questions have been very easy to understand from them, and some of them have been a little bit more perplexing. It's hard to tell exactly what the mindset of that juror is, but the jurors are paying very close attention and when they ask questions, they are very very specific. The other thing that's very differ difficult to tell is which juror is asking which question because at the end of testimony, once both sides of attorneys are done, the jurors simply submit their questions on a piece of paper to the judge. The judge meets with the attorneys behind a monitor and plays static in the court so we can't hear their conversation, and then she comes out and reads it and she does not identify which juror is asking the question, whether it's one dur or multiple jurors for those questions.

Right, because the lawyers have to agree for the question to be asked. What are some of the other questions that you've heard in the court room, Barbara.

Right, because the lawyers have to agree for the question to be asked. What are some of the other questions that you've heard in the court room, Barbara.

One thing that was really interesting yesterday we heard that the Snapchat was posted by Libby at two o seven showing Abby on the bridge. That image was not found on Libby's device. It was not in her Snapchat that's the image. It was not found on her Snapchat account. It was not found in her phone camera. Role they looked for it, they could not fumage anywhere. He had absolutely no explanation about that. The defense tried to ask him about a cash, an encrypted cash that Snapchat keeps track of of some sort of files, and he wasn't too familiar with that. The jurors had a lot of questions though out Snapchat and whether somebody could have accessed her account from another device and somehow deleted that image, but he was not able to offer any kind of explanation for why that image was not on her phone. She had taken about four pictures and uploaded those to Snapchat in the forty five minutes before the murders, and all of those other images were there. It's just that one image of Abby that's missing, and we have no idea.

One thing that was really interesting yesterday we heard that the Snapchat was posted by Libby at two o seven showing Abby on the bridge. That image was not found on Libby's device. It was not in her Snapchat that's the image. It was not found on her Snapchat account. It was not found in her phone camera. Role they looked for it, they could not fumage anywhere. He had absolutely no explanation about that. The defense tried to ask him about a cash, an encrypted cash that Snapchat keeps track of of some sort of files, and he wasn't too familiar with that. The jurors had a lot of questions though out Snapchat and whether somebody could have accessed her account from another device and somehow deleted that image, but he was not able to offer any kind of explanation for why that image was not on her phone. She had taken about four pictures and uploaded those to Snapchat in the forty five minutes before the murders, and all of those other images were there. It's just that one image of Abby that's missing, and we have no idea.

Why so, did the.

Why so, did the.

Jerry seem to be absorbing all of the cell phone data, the digital data, and did anyone make any show a facial expression when we learned that after twenty three devices are taken from the defendant sees pursuing the search warrant, one's missing, and it happens to me the cell phone hey would have been carrying that day.

Jerry seem to be absorbing all of the cell phone data, the digital data, and did anyone make any show a facial expression when we learned that after twenty three devices are taken from the defendant sees pursuing the search warrant, one's missing, and it happens to me the cell phone hey would have been carrying that day.

Nobody thought that was odd.

Nobody thought that was odd.

You know, they all have poker faces. I've been trying to read faces and see how they're responding to various witnesses and whether or not they find them believable. The only time I got a little bit of a sense of the jurors perhaps shaking their head a bit at a witness was the witness who testified that she saw the man walking on the road muddy and bloody. She sort of fell apart on cross examination, admitting that she never mentioned blood until her third interview with law enforcement. She couldn't explain why she said she did mention it earlier, and she doesn't know why it's not in the reports. She seemed to have some credibility issues with the defense attorneys.

You know, they all have poker faces. I've been trying to read faces and see how they're responding to various witnesses and whether or not they find them believable. The only time I got a little bit of a sense of the jurors perhaps shaking their head a bit at a witness was the witness who testified that she saw the man walking on the road muddy and bloody. She sort of fell apart on cross examination, admitting that she never mentioned blood until her third interview with law enforcement. She couldn't explain why she said she did mention it earlier, and she doesn't know why it's not in the reports. She seemed to have some credibility issues with the defense attorneys.

She got very regumented.

She got very regumented.

It wasn't a lot of the audio interrogation as the questioning lost because of a snassu of Elie Yes.

It wasn't a lot of the audio interrogation as the questioning lost because of a snassu of Elie Yes.

In the first days of the investigation, they did lose many of the interviews that they did with potential suspects. Now we've never heard officially whether that includes any of these interviews with witnesses. This particular witness didn't come forward the first time until more than three weeks after the murders. That seems to be after that window when that known problem happened with some of those files being lost. But she said that one of the officers told her that about an hour to an hour and a half of one of her interviews is missing, and she said when she talked about the blood.

In the first days of the investigation, they did lose many of the interviews that they did with potential suspects. Now we've never heard officially whether that includes any of these interviews with witnesses. This particular witness didn't come forward the first time until more than three weeks after the murders. That seems to be after that window when that known problem happened with some of those files being lost. But she said that one of the officers told her that about an hour to an hour and a half of one of her interviews is missing, and she said when she talked about the blood.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

It was something I've never seen before, the viciousness of the brutality.

It was something I've never seen before, the viciousness of the brutality.

This is going to be overkilled. There's going to be mutilation to the point of a partial decapitation.

This is going to be overkilled. There's going to be mutilation to the point of a partial decapitation.

Here.

Here.

Defense attorney Andrew Baldwin began his cross examination of Sarah Carbough by asking questions about discrepancies in her descriptions.

Defense attorney Andrew Baldwin began his cross examination of Sarah Carbough by asking questions about discrepancies in her descriptions.

Of mud and blood.

Of mud and blood.

Carbot responded that the details were as simple as it is and that outside of this testimony, I want nothing to do with this. Baldwin continued to press, asking about Bridge Guy's hair texture and eyes. Carbot responded to the attorney, saying, you're romanticizing this.

Carbot responded that the details were as simple as it is and that outside of this testimony, I want nothing to do with this. Baldwin continued to press, asking about Bridge Guy's hair texture and eyes. Carbot responded to the attorney, saying, you're romanticizing this.

Who is Sarah Carbaugh back against the defense attorney who seemingly is making inroads with the eyewitnesses that spot the quote bridge guy. Now, it's my understanding that they're not saying Richard Allen is the bridge guy. But we do know that Richard Allen himself places himself at the trestle bridge there at Monton Park at the time the girls were killed, around the time the girls were killed, wearing the same outfit as the bridge guy.

Who is Sarah Carbaugh back against the defense attorney who seemingly is making inroads with the eyewitnesses that spot the quote bridge guy. Now, it's my understanding that they're not saying Richard Allen is the bridge guy. But we do know that Richard Allen himself places himself at the trestle bridge there at Monton Park at the time the girls were killed, around the time the girls were killed, wearing the same outfit as the bridge guy.

Okay, So in order to believe he's.

Okay, So in order to believe he's.

Not the bridge guy, you have to believe that another guy was there at the very same time wearing the very same outfit.

Not the bridge guy, you have to believe that another guy was there at the very same time wearing the very same outfit.

Okay.

Okay.

So you've got Sarah Carbaugh fighting back with the defense. But there are other witnesses that state they saw the bridge guy.

So you've got Sarah Carbaugh fighting back with the defense. But there are other witnesses that state they saw the bridge guy.

Listen, after jurorsy are showing the bridge guy video from Libby Germany's phone, witnesses take the stand who are out walking the trails and crossing the high bridge the day the girl's vanished. Raley Voorhees was sixteen and a student in Delphia High School when she was out walking near Freedom Bridge the day Abbey and Libby vanished. She describes seeing an unsettling man near the bridge who glared at her. She didn't recognize the man and said he wore a mask up to his nose. When shown a blown up photograph of Bridge Guy before, he said that was the man I saw on the trail before, He's described Bridge Guy as wearing black jeans and black hoodie, black boots and a black mask. Claimed the man had a bigger build and estimated him to be twenty to thirty years old. Before He's admitted her memory may have been impacted by the photo of Bridge Guy released by police during the investigation into the murders.

Listen, after jurorsy are showing the bridge guy video from Libby Germany's phone, witnesses take the stand who are out walking the trails and crossing the high bridge the day the girl's vanished. Raley Voorhees was sixteen and a student in Delphia High School when she was out walking near Freedom Bridge the day Abbey and Libby vanished. She describes seeing an unsettling man near the bridge who glared at her. She didn't recognize the man and said he wore a mask up to his nose. When shown a blown up photograph of Bridge Guy before, he said that was the man I saw on the trail before, He's described Bridge Guy as wearing black jeans and black hoodie, black boots and a black mask. Claimed the man had a bigger build and estimated him to be twenty to thirty years old. Before He's admitted her memory may have been impacted by the photo of Bridge Guy released by police during the investigation into the murders.

We're getting different versions about what Bridge Guy looked like.

We're getting different versions about what Bridge Guy looked like.

Well, we've got Bridge Guy on video. So what does it amount to hill of beans or confusing the jury? Now? Think about it.

Well, we've got Bridge Guy on video. So what does it amount to hill of beans or confusing the jury? Now? Think about it.

The one witness says she thought Bridge Guy was wearing a mask, but if you look at him, he's pushing his face down into his clothing, all right?

The one witness says she thought Bridge Guy was wearing a mask, but if you look at him, he's pushing his face down into his clothing, all right?

Is that where she got that from?

Is that where she got that from?

At one point did he pull his clothing up over his mouth or nose and listen to this.

At one point did he pull his clothing up over his mouth or nose and listen to this.

Betsy Blair said she had been out walking the trails the day that Libby and Abbey disappeared, and after hearing about the girls, spoke to police about what she saw that day. Blair was asked to help them create a sketch of the man she spotted near the bridge. She said the man had brown, poofy hair and described him as looking younger. She didn't recall him having facial hair. Betsy Blair says she was about fifty feet from bridge guy and says she thought, due to his posture, that he was looking for someone.

Betsy Blair said she had been out walking the trails the day that Libby and Abbey disappeared, and after hearing about the girls, spoke to police about what she saw that day. Blair was asked to help them create a sketch of the man she spotted near the bridge. She said the man had brown, poofy hair and described him as looking younger. She didn't recall him having facial hair. Betsy Blair says she was about fifty feet from bridge guy and says she thought, due to his posture, that he was looking for someone.

Straight out to Doctor Bethany Marshall renounced Psycho Allison, author of deal Breakers. She's on peacock now, Doctor Bethany, I guess the name Ted Bundy rings a bell? Do you remember how he lost an incredible amount of weight so he could escape through a vent? But he changed his appearance. We saw Scott Peterson change his appearance growing a goatee, much as Richard Allen has done dyeing his hair. We see Brian Coberger charging the quadruple murder in Idaho for University Idaho students killed in their own beds. We see him changing his appearance. We see this guy, Richard Allen, changing his appearance, losing a huge amount of weight and growing a goateee, anything to separate himself from being the bridge guy. Hello, And of course I expect eyewitnesses versions to differ in some ways.

Straight out to Doctor Bethany Marshall renounced Psycho Allison, author of deal Breakers. She's on peacock now, Doctor Bethany, I guess the name Ted Bundy rings a bell? Do you remember how he lost an incredible amount of weight so he could escape through a vent? But he changed his appearance. We saw Scott Peterson change his appearance growing a goatee, much as Richard Allen has done dyeing his hair. We see Brian Coberger charging the quadruple murder in Idaho for University Idaho students killed in their own beds. We see him changing his appearance. We see this guy, Richard Allen, changing his appearance, losing a huge amount of weight and growing a goateee, anything to separate himself from being the bridge guy. Hello, And of course I expect eyewitnesses versions to differ in some ways.

Absolutely, Nancy.

Absolutely, Nancy.

But of course he confesses many times in jail, so once he's incarcerated, he does.

But of course he confesses many times in jail, so once he's incarcerated, he does.

Not try to remove himself from the story.

Not try to remove himself from the story.

So what I think is happening is that he's changing his appearance so he won't be incarcerated, so he can go out.

So what I think is happening is that he's changing his appearance so he won't be incarcerated, so he can go out.

And commit more crimes. Right, this was his moment of glory in his life when he killed these two girls. He had been thinking about this for a long time. Perhaps fetishize the box cutter, fetishize the gun. Had a rich Man distributory life leading up to this, and now that it's over, he wants to be out and on the loose. He wants to practice what he's learned through this crime.

And commit more crimes. Right, this was his moment of glory in his life when he killed these two girls. He had been thinking about this for a long time. Perhaps fetishize the box cutter, fetishize the gun. Had a rich Man distributory life leading up to this, and now that it's over, he wants to be out and on the loose. He wants to practice what he's learned through this crime.

My profile lawyer Philip Debay joining us.

My profile lawyer Philip Debay joining us.

Phil if you could take off your defense hat just one moment and just tell me. I've seen it many times in the cases I prosecuted. When you've got eyewitnesses the defense and knows they're going to take the stand, the defendant will try to change his or her appearance. I've seen it over and over and over to make it more difficult for the eyewitness. And when you look at Bridge Guy, who we now know that Bridge Guy is the killer.

Phil if you could take off your defense hat just one moment and just tell me. I've seen it many times in the cases I prosecuted. When you've got eyewitnesses the defense and knows they're going to take the stand, the defendant will try to change his or her appearance. I've seen it over and over and over to make it more difficult for the eyewitness. And when you look at Bridge Guy, who we now know that Bridge Guy is the killer.

He's the one that said down the hill.

He's the one that said down the hill.

The more he can differentiate himself from that appearance, the more difficult it will be for the witnesses. And you see how Bridge Guy's trying to cover his face. All you can see is here to hear.

The more he can differentiate himself from that appearance, the more difficult it will be for the witnesses. And you see how Bridge Guy's trying to cover his face. All you can see is here to hear.

Yeah, And it's quite common. I mean, obviously people want to conceal their identities, particularly when they're going to of crimes such as double murder. Now, to be Devil's advocate, there are an awful lot of people out on that remote bridge that day. The prosecution will have you believed that he's just out there skulking about looking for the right opportunity to kill two girls. Whoever did this was it was a very unplanned at tech because there was no way to know that Abby and Libby would even be out there that day, So at best, this was a crime of art.

Yeah, And it's quite common. I mean, obviously people want to conceal their identities, particularly when they're going to of crimes such as double murder. Now, to be Devil's advocate, there are an awful lot of people out on that remote bridge that day. The prosecution will have you believed that he's just out there skulking about looking for the right opportunity to kill two girls. Whoever did this was it was a very unplanned at tech because there was no way to know that Abby and Libby would even be out there that day, So at best, this was a crime of art.

Unless you have been following them on social media.

Unless you have been following them on social media.

Sure, But then that means you would have to take the day off from work and decide just to hang out on a bridge and just wait for the right moment. I think that is a bridge too far. No pun intended.

Sure, But then that means you would have to take the day off from work and decide just to hang out on a bridge and just wait for the right moment. I think that is a bridge too far. No pun intended.

Guys, what are we learning now?

Guys, what are we learning now?

We hear the defense is trying yet again to bring in the theory of Odinism, that the real killer worshiped Thor and odin, the mythological Norse gods.

We hear the defense is trying yet again to bring in the theory of Odinism, that the real killer worshiped Thor and odin, the mythological Norse gods.

Is that true, Dave Mack? Is that true?

Is that true, Dave Mack? Is that true?

The defense trying again to bring in Odinism as a defense.

The defense trying again to bring in Odinism as a defense.

They are, and they're actually using testimony from the crime scene investigator about the sticks and branches, saying that that was actually put there as a sign, even though they were just thrown on top. They're trying to use that as their reason for bringing the Odinism argument back in.

They are, and they're actually using testimony from the crime scene investigator about the sticks and branches, saying that that was actually put there as a sign, even though they were just thrown on top. They're trying to use that as their reason for bringing the Odinism argument back in.

Lawyers for Richard Allen are once again asking the court to allow their Odinism theory in the Delphi murders trial. The defense claims the crime scene where the girls were found contains evidence of a ritualistic murder tied to Odinism. Odinism is a pagan Norse religion and white nationalist group. The defense tried introducing the odinism theory in September twenty twenty three, but Judge Gull blocked them from using the theory citing a lack of evidence. The defense claims testimony from crime scene investigator Brian Oli during the trial is reason enough to allow the theory.

Lawyers for Richard Allen are once again asking the court to allow their Odinism theory in the Delphi murders trial. The defense claims the crime scene where the girls were found contains evidence of a ritualistic murder tied to Odinism. Odinism is a pagan Norse religion and white nationalist group. The defense tried introducing the odinism theory in September twenty twenty three, but Judge Gull blocked them from using the theory citing a lack of evidence. The defense claims testimony from crime scene investigator Brian Oli during the trial is reason enough to allow the theory.

We are live at the courthouse as the double murder trial of two beautiful little girls is underway. When will the jury hear all of the multiple confessions given by Richard Allen?

We are live at the courthouse as the double murder trial of two beautiful little girls is underway. When will the jury hear all of the multiple confessions given by Richard Allen?

Straight out?

Straight out?

To Dave mattcrimeonline dot Com investigative reporter covering the trial, Dave mac who to home? Did Allen give these alleged confessions?

To Dave mattcrimeonline dot Com investigative reporter covering the trial, Dave mac who to home? Did Allen give these alleged confessions?

Probably easier to listen who he didn't give them to Nancy. We're talking sixty sixty one different confessions to He talked to police, he talked to inmates, he talked to his wife, He talked to just about anybody that would listen.

Probably easier to listen who he didn't give them to Nancy. We're talking sixty sixty one different confessions to He talked to police, he talked to inmates, he talked to his wife, He talked to just about anybody that would listen.

He told them that.

He told them that.

He had something to do with it. And apparently in some of these confessions, Nancy, he said things that only the actual killer would know.

He had something to do with it. And apparently in some of these confessions, Nancy, he said things that only the actual killer would know.

And that's what we were learning so far in dribbles and bits. What will we learn when we finally hear those because I mean, think about it real daily. Really, inmates and their lawyers don't know that their conversations are being rec I assume that you've heard jail house conversations before, because about every thirty seconds you say you are being called from a correctional institution, you can hear a recording on and on and on throughout all conversations from the jail or prison.

And that's what we were learning so far in dribbles and bits. What will we learn when we finally hear those because I mean, think about it real daily. Really, inmates and their lawyers don't know that their conversations are being rec I assume that you've heard jail house conversations before, because about every thirty seconds you say you are being called from a correctional institution, you can hear a recording on and on and on throughout all conversations from the jail or prison.

Surely that is quite evident. If it's not actually heard, it's known. So the fact that anyone, any would make a confession and not knowing that somebody is either listening or it has been recorded some fashion, is kind of a bit beyond the pale. So I don't know how they could kind of convey that in fact, he you know, he wasn't aware of that, or there wasn't any any supervision of these calls. Makes no sense.

Surely that is quite evident. If it's not actually heard, it's known. So the fact that anyone, any would make a confession and not knowing that somebody is either listening or it has been recorded some fashion, is kind of a bit beyond the pale. So I don't know how they could kind of convey that in fact, he you know, he wasn't aware of that, or there wasn't any any supervision of these calls. Makes no sense.

Yeah, Philip D. Bay, criminal defense attorney. In some places, even the walls and the CI correctional institute have recording devices in them. Yes, that's true, but this guy wouldn't quit. How can you discount sixty one plus confession debate easily?

Yeah, Philip D. Bay, criminal defense attorney. In some places, even the walls and the CI correctional institute have recording devices in them. Yes, that's true, but this guy wouldn't quit. How can you discount sixty one plus confession debate easily?

There is a branch of forensic psychology called imagination inflation, and it is a condition regarding false memory, where somebody might be intimately familiar with some of the details, such as in this case, if he had been out on that trail, where due to delirium from being locked up, not on meds, or maybe being on improper meds, was improperly or inaccurately recounting everything that occurred. It's sort of a Kopka sque type phenomenon, it really is. It's called imagination inflation, and they recount things.

There is a branch of forensic psychology called imagination inflation, and it is a condition regarding false memory, where somebody might be intimately familiar with some of the details, such as in this case, if he had been out on that trail, where due to delirium from being locked up, not on meds, or maybe being on improper meds, was improperly or inaccurately recounting everything that occurred. It's sort of a Kopka sque type phenomenon, it really is. It's called imagination inflation, and they recount things.

You're making this up.

You're making this up.

You're having imagination inflation because nobody said anything about his meds.

You're having imagination inflation because nobody said anything about his meds.

I'm just telling, yes, talking.

I'm just telling, yes, talking.

And he says this in his confessions because he realized his family was turning against him. After he keeps confessing to stripping and murdering two little girls, the family is starting to turn against him. He believes the only way he will ever be reunited with his family is in heaven. That chance, but that said, to get to heaven in his mind, he has to confess.

And he says this in his confessions because he realized his family was turning against him. After he keeps confessing to stripping and murdering two little girls, the family is starting to turn against him. He believes the only way he will ever be reunited with his family is in heaven. That chance, but that said, to get to heaven in his mind, he has to confess.

Remember we saw this in twenty sixteen with John Carr, who confessed to killing He confessed to killing Jean Benet Ramsey at a press conference in Thailand. What do they do? They get them on a plane, They extra item, and nothing matched the forensics. His DNA was nowhere.

Remember we saw this in twenty sixteen with John Carr, who confessed to killing He confessed to killing Jean Benet Ramsey at a press conference in Thailand. What do they do? They get them on a plane, They extra item, and nothing matched the forensics. His DNA was nowhere.

It exactly exaginating used.

It exactly exaginating used.

That example because Joscott Morgan, what intimate facts about this case? Do you believe the real killer would know? In divulge over sixty one confessions.

That example because Joscott Morgan, what intimate facts about this case? Do you believe the real killer would know? In divulge over sixty one confessions.

Oh my gosh, I kill these two girls, and I covered them with branches and debris. Oh my gosh, it was so cold out there, and I can't believe I did this. Oh my gosh, I redressed a body, you know, Oh my gosh, I didn't. I didn't understand what it was going to be like to out a child's throat. That's the kind of thing.

Oh my gosh, I kill these two girls, and I covered them with branches and debris. Oh my gosh, it was so cold out there, and I can't believe I did this. Oh my gosh, I redressed a body, you know, Oh my gosh, I didn't. I didn't understand what it was going to be like to out a child's throat. That's the kind of thing.

And I use most I predict we're going to hear, You're absolutely right, details of the location, the moments, the responses of the girls, his remorse, any tib like, we haven't even heard the confessions yet, and we already have been told he mentioned a box cutter and that he disposed of the box cutter outside his place of business.

And I use most I predict we're going to hear, You're absolutely right, details of the location, the moments, the responses of the girls, his remorse, any tib like, we haven't even heard the confessions yet, and we already have been told he mentioned a box cutter and that he disposed of the box cutter outside his place of business.

What plethora.

What plethora.

Of facts are we going to hear when we finally hear those confessions in court? And remember, you don't have to give a guy the miranda rights when they're blabbing to their wife. A defendant gets Miranda rights, right to remain silent, so forth, and so on. If in state custody and speaking to law enforcement, the Constitution doesn't protect you from blabbing to your wife over the prison phone. We wait as justice unfolds, and we stay live at the courthouse. And now we remember an American hero. Deputy Sheriff Daniel Oliver, Sacramento County Sheriffs, shot and killed in the line of duty. Served fifteen years with Sacramento County Sheriffs. Survived by grieving wife Susan, daughters Jenny and Melissa. American hero Deputy Sheriff Daniel Oliver. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us as we cover the Delphi double a murder trial.

Of facts are we going to hear when we finally hear those confessions in court? And remember, you don't have to give a guy the miranda rights when they're blabbing to their wife. A defendant gets Miranda rights, right to remain silent, so forth, and so on. If in state custody and speaking to law enforcement, the Constitution doesn't protect you from blabbing to your wife over the prison phone. We wait as justice unfolds, and we stay live at the courthouse. And now we remember an American hero. Deputy Sheriff Daniel Oliver, Sacramento County Sheriffs, shot and killed in the line of duty. Served fifteen years with Sacramento County Sheriffs. Survived by grieving wife Susan, daughters Jenny and Melissa. American hero Deputy Sheriff Daniel Oliver. Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for being with us as we cover the Delphi double a murder trial.

Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,

Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,