Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, New and very disturbing details emerging surrounding the Brian Coberger quadruple murder case. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, New and very disturbing details emerging surrounding the Brian Coberger quadruple murder case. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

What happened the fateful night of the University of Idaho for murders. New theories revealed in a special episode with author Howard.

What happened the fateful night of the University of Idaho for murders. New theories revealed in a special episode with author Howard.

Bloom, Thank you for being with us with us, Author Howard Bloom has just come out with an incredible book full chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting the theory supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian Coberg in fact murdered for young University Idaho students. Howard Bloom, you describe in depth what happens with the two surviving roommates, Dylan and Bethany.

Bloom, Thank you for being with us with us, Author Howard Bloom has just come out with an incredible book full chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting the theory supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian Coberg in fact murdered for young University Idaho students. Howard Bloom, you describe in depth what happens with the two surviving roommates, Dylan and Bethany.

Listen in the early morning hours between four am and four thirty am, Dylan Mortensen says she calls out to her friends, who she thinks her being too loud. After hearing more loud noises, Mortenson again tells her roommates to calm down, she's trying to sleep. She turns and locks their door, hearing loud noises again. Mortensen opens the door and sees Brian Coberger allegedly and believing him to be a partygoer who is leaving, says nothing, shuts and locks her door again.

Listen in the early morning hours between four am and four thirty am, Dylan Mortensen says she calls out to her friends, who she thinks her being too loud. After hearing more loud noises, Mortenson again tells her roommates to calm down, she's trying to sleep. She turns and locks their door, hearing loud noises again. Mortensen opens the door and sees Brian Coberger allegedly and believing him to be a partygoer who is leaving, says nothing, shuts and locks her door again.

The girl that lived, According to prosecutors, Brian Coburger went into the home on King Road with a mission to commit the perfect murder. Could he actually commit mass murder and not leave a trace behind? And what about the two that lived? Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk.

The girl that lived, According to prosecutors, Brian Coburger went into the home on King Road with a mission to commit the perfect murder. Could he actually commit mass murder and not leave a trace behind? And what about the two that lived? Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk.

Listen.

Listen.

Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk are both home while their friends are murdered upstairs and are left unharmed. Sources tell ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortenson and Funk were using their cell phones to communicate before, during, and after the murders. Many have wondered, since Mortenson and Funk were both in the home and on their cell phones when the murders are taking place, why is there an eight hour delay before police are called in? Why were other friends called before police?

Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk are both home while their friends are murdered upstairs and are left unharmed. Sources tell ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortenson and Funk were using their cell phones to communicate before, during, and after the murders. Many have wondered, since Mortenson and Funk were both in the home and on their cell phones when the murders are taking place, why is there an eight hour delay before police are called in? Why were other friends called before police?

Howard Bloom joining us with an all star panel, and guys, remember we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump in with your own theories and questions. The state could use them.

Howard Bloom joining us with an all star panel, and guys, remember we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump in with your own theories and questions. The state could use them.

Howard Bloom.

Howard Bloom.

I'm curious as well, and you devote a lot of time to this in your book when the night comes falling about the delay on Dylan Mortenson's part, she actually sees the killer leaving the home. There is a serious delay, and during that time a lot of evidence could and most likely was lost. Question to you. You described the police grappling with that's seven to eight hour delay.

I'm curious as well, and you devote a lot of time to this in your book when the night comes falling about the delay on Dylan Mortenson's part, she actually sees the killer leaving the home. There is a serious delay, and during that time a lot of evidence could and most likely was lost. Question to you. You described the police grappling with that's seven to eight hour delay.

Describe that the police are dumbfounded.

Describe that the police are dumbfounded.

They can't understand how this girl could see a killer in the house and do nothing about it. Her behavior is irrational, and I think though ultimately the police and I have concluded that a rational explanation is impossible. I think she was locked in a state of terror. I also believe Coberger has he descended and passed her on his way out of the house, was locked in his own state of mania. He was surrounded by his own armory of hate, if you will. If Dylan had spoken out, if she had tried to penetrate the moment that he was locked in, I think she would have died. I think she would have become another victim her terror. Her silence saved her life.

They can't understand how this girl could see a killer in the house and do nothing about it. Her behavior is irrational, and I think though ultimately the police and I have concluded that a rational explanation is impossible. I think she was locked in a state of terror. I also believe Coberger has he descended and passed her on his way out of the house, was locked in his own state of mania. He was surrounded by his own armory of hate, if you will. If Dylan had spoken out, if she had tried to penetrate the moment that he was locked in, I think she would have died. I think she would have become another victim her terror. Her silence saved her life.

You know, I haven't really thought about it in the way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Just Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit series body Bags podcast. We've gone round and round about Dylan Mortenson, more so than Bethany because Bethany, while there, did not see the perpetrator leaving. That's why more focus has been on Dylan Mortenson. What do you make of what Howard Bloom just said. I agree with him. If she had uttered a sound, she would be dead right now.

You know, I haven't really thought about it in the way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Just Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit series body Bags podcast. We've gone round and round about Dylan Mortenson, more so than Bethany because Bethany, while there, did not see the perpetrator leaving. That's why more focus has been on Dylan Mortenson. What do you make of what Howard Bloom just said. I agree with him. If she had uttered a sound, she would be dead right now.

I agree. Here's here's my perspective. I think that there's an element this where Coburger, if he did in fact commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state he has tunnel vision at this point in time, He's trying to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of the energy that he has expended at this point in time, starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter that has taken place allegedly at his own hands, and then to be surprised by the other two residents on this floor, with Zana and Ethan, he has to encounter them and make his way past them. I don't know that people, and I hope people never do understand the amount of energy that would go in to try to commit this kind of heinous crime, and so he's locked in. I think that probably if she had in fact spoken, she would have just become an obstacle to him that he's trying to defeat to make his way to that door so he can get out and get in that car.

I agree. Here's here's my perspective. I think that there's an element this where Coburger, if he did in fact commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state he has tunnel vision at this point in time, He's trying to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of the energy that he has expended at this point in time, starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter that has taken place allegedly at his own hands, and then to be surprised by the other two residents on this floor, with Zana and Ethan, he has to encounter them and make his way past them. I don't know that people, and I hope people never do understand the amount of energy that would go in to try to commit this kind of heinous crime, and so he's locked in. I think that probably if she had in fact spoken, she would have just become an obstacle to him that he's trying to defeat to make his way to that door so he can get out and get in that car.

And leave much the way.

And leave much the way.

According to Howard Bloom, Kelley Gonsolvis became let me just see an impediment because of the ferocity of the attack on Kelly Gonsolvis, and her father said that he believed Kelly was the target. Now Bloom is saying Maddie was the target and Kelly was in the way, So that supports what you're saying. But I want to follow up with doctor Angela Arnold. I want you to hear this, Howard Bloom and Brian Stewart, you often have to go to state of mind as a trial lawyer. Doctor Angela Arnold is with US renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at angela Arnold MD dot com. Doctor Angie, let's analyze what we've just heard, how or could I use that at trial to explained to this jury why Dylan Mortenson did nothing. Now I have defended Dylan Mortenson from the get go. Dylan Mortenson is a crime victim. Let's not forget that before everybody heaps on what she did wrong.

According to Howard Bloom, Kelley Gonsolvis became let me just see an impediment because of the ferocity of the attack on Kelly Gonsolvis, and her father said that he believed Kelly was the target. Now Bloom is saying Maddie was the target and Kelly was in the way, So that supports what you're saying. But I want to follow up with doctor Angela Arnold. I want you to hear this, Howard Bloom and Brian Stewart, you often have to go to state of mind as a trial lawyer. Doctor Angela Arnold is with US renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at angela Arnold MD dot com. Doctor Angie, let's analyze what we've just heard, how or could I use that at trial to explained to this jury why Dylan Mortenson did nothing. Now I have defended Dylan Mortenson from the get go. Dylan Mortenson is a crime victim. Let's not forget that before everybody heaps on what she did wrong.

Okay, she did nothing wrong.

Okay, she did nothing wrong.

She had been out, like many, many thousands of vandals, that's the college mascot, drinking and having a good time. There was a football game that weekend. She comes home, it's really late, at nine, around four am.

She had been out, like many, many thousands of vandals, that's the college mascot, drinking and having a good time. There was a football game that weekend. She comes home, it's really late, at nine, around four am.

She's been partying.

She's been partying.

She hears a noise, she hears the dog, she hears her roommates saying something, and she gets up in that state of mind, How does she know who he was? That he was a killer. How does she know he wasn't just someone visiting and leaving. People were ordering food, people were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long. It's four in the morning.

She hears a noise, she hears the dog, she hears her roommates saying something, and she gets up in that state of mind, How does she know who he was? That he was a killer. How does she know he wasn't just someone visiting and leaving. People were ordering food, people were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long. It's four in the morning.

Is that why she.

Is that why she.

Didn't call nine one one? Now the crux the rub is going to be what's in the cell phone communications between Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as a psychiatrist, a rational explanation as to why Dylan did not call nine one one.

Didn't call nine one one? Now the crux the rub is going to be what's in the cell phone communications between Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as a psychiatrist, a rational explanation as to why Dylan did not call nine one one.

Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are let's just remember, these are kids that are in college. They're partying. It's close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in their right mind think, oh my god, there's a killer in the house and my friends have been killed. I am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise. Apparently there was always a lot of coming and going from this house because they're just kids in college having a good time, right, that was the culture there. So she did nothing wrong. I have a feeling that with all of the communication back and forth and everything, she had no idea who he was. He wasn't She didn't recognize him. He was just somebody walking through the house. And she was probably a little bit scared because of the noise that she had heard.

Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are let's just remember, these are kids that are in college. They're partying. It's close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in their right mind think, oh my god, there's a killer in the house and my friends have been killed. I am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise. Apparently there was always a lot of coming and going from this house because they're just kids in college having a good time, right, that was the culture there. So she did nothing wrong. I have a feeling that with all of the communication back and forth and everything, she had no idea who he was. He wasn't She didn't recognize him. He was just somebody walking through the house. And she was probably a little bit scared because of the noise that she had heard.

She was a little bit of shocked. I don't know.

She was a little bit of shocked. I don't know.

I don't know about her being scared, because if she was scared, she would have called nine one one.

I don't know about her being scared, because if she was scared, she would have called nine one one.

I think she was a little bit drunk.

I think she was a little bit drunk.

And maybe she was, Nancy, And so if she was, it's not like she was out driving and drinking. She was in her home, Hey hey, hey, and drink slow down, sleeping.

And maybe she was, Nancy, And so if she was, it's not like she was out driving and drinking. She was in her home, Hey hey, hey, and drink slow down, sleeping.

It off, Slow down, Nellie, you're preaching to the choir right now.

It off, Slow down, Nellie, you're preaching to the choir right now.

I'm on Dylan's side on this crime stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Howard Bloom.

I'm on Dylan's side on this crime stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Howard Bloom.

Yes, I can explain away why she didn't call nine one one, But what do we know about her communications with Bethany during that time the other roommate. Does it prove she did know an attack was occurring, or does it prove the contrary You.

Yes, I can explain away why she didn't call nine one one, But what do we know about her communications with Bethany during that time the other roommate. Does it prove she did know an attack was occurring, or does it prove the contrary You.

Are raising One of the great mysteries of this case. All I have been able to find out is that testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury. The grand jury heard about it, the grand jury reviewed some of those texts.

Are raising One of the great mysteries of this case. All I have been able to find out is that testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury. The grand jury heard about it, the grand jury reviewed some of those texts.

What they said. I'd be.

What they said. I'd be.

Dishonest if I said I knew. My feeling is, though, that Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are changed forever by these events, and you know, we keep on looking for a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior.

Dishonest if I said I knew. My feeling is, though, that Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are changed forever by these events, and you know, we keep on looking for a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior.

It wasn't irrational night.

It wasn't irrational night.

I think I know something, I think I can do something, Howard Bloom, and I may be very be proving very wrong come trial time. But let me go to a trial strategist on this.

I think I know something, I think I can do something, Howard Bloom, and I may be very be proving very wrong come trial time. But let me go to a trial strategist on this.

Brian C.

Brian C.

Stewart veteran trial lawyer who is joining us from this jurisdiction in Idaho.

Stewart veteran trial lawyer who is joining us from this jurisdiction in Idaho.

He practices there in Utah.

He practices there in Utah.

Brian, you've tried a lot of cases, and if you want to win a case, you marshal your evidence. You have a plan what you're going I recall when I would write out yes, I would write out every question verbatim for every witness. Of course, you know you have a plan when you go into a fight, but when you get a punch in the nose, the plan goes to hey, right, so you have a plan. Let's think about these communications, the communications between Dylan and Bethany.

Brian, you've tried a lot of cases, and if you want to win a case, you marshal your evidence. You have a plan what you're going I recall when I would write out yes, I would write out every question verbatim for every witness. Of course, you know you have a plan when you go into a fight, but when you get a punch in the nose, the plan goes to hey, right, so you have a plan. Let's think about these communications, the communications between Dylan and Bethany.

We know they were communicating by phone.

We know they were communicating by phone.

Thanks to Howard Bloom, we now know those were not phone calls, they were texts. Those texts were given to the grand jury who indicted Coburger.

Thanks to Howard Bloom, we now know those were not phone calls, they were texts. Those texts were given to the grand jury who indicted Coburger.

Think this through.

Think this through.

I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts were about.

I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts were about.

What is the noise? Did you hear the dog?

What is the noise? Did you hear the dog?

What's going on? Are they still awake? Blah blah blah, Because Brian C. Stewart, if those texts were about, oh my star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream? I thought I heard a fight and text to that genre. I believe those texts would have been used as establishing a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of those texts if they were probative.

What's going on? Are they still awake? Blah blah blah, Because Brian C. Stewart, if those texts were about, oh my star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream? I thought I heard a fight and text to that genre. I believe those texts would have been used as establishing a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of those texts if they were probative.

In other words, if they proved anything.

In other words, if they proved anything.

I think that's right.

I think that's right.

We would have heard more about them. They would have given us more information about what the girls experienced during that period. But to me, the fact that they were locked inside their rooms and sending texts rather than talking or going to find each other tells me that they were still in fear and didn't believe they Wait.

We would have heard more about them. They would have given us more information about what the girls experienced during that period. But to me, the fact that they were locked inside their rooms and sending texts rather than talking or going to find each other tells me that they were still in fear and didn't believe they Wait.

A minute, Brian, I don't know if you know that. My ninety two year old mother lives with us, and my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I don't like jewelry, fancy cars, or clothes. Don't even say fur. He gave me I Granny cam.

A minute, Brian, I don't know if you know that. My ninety two year old mother lives with us, and my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I don't like jewelry, fancy cars, or clothes. Don't even say fur. He gave me I Granny cam.

I love it.

I love it.

I can see what Granny is doing at night. Has she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly?

I can see what Granny is doing at night. Has she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly?

Do I need to go get out of bed at three am and go check on her like I did the first eight years she lived with us. How easy is it to text? Why do you want to get up when you're wearing nothing? But a T shirt. Go out in the hall, knock on your roommate's.

Do I need to go get out of bed at three am and go check on her like I did the first eight years she lived with us. How easy is it to text? Why do you want to get up when you're wearing nothing? But a T shirt. Go out in the hall, knock on your roommate's.

Door and go, hey, wake up.

Door and go, hey, wake up.

I've got a question. What's going on up there? Technical term? I don't know if you've got it in Idaho and Utah. Bs. Of course they're texting. I text back and.

I've got a question. What's going on up there? Technical term? I don't know if you've got it in Idaho and Utah. Bs. Of course they're texting. I text back and.

Forth with the twins. We're in there there in the.

Forth with the twins. We're in there there in the.

Back of the house, right, that's not I don't find that disturbing at all at all, Brian, I don't either.

Back of the house, right, that's not I don't find that disturbing at all at all, Brian, I don't either.

But if they had heard some struggle, if they had heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me that they would lay low and be paralyzed by fear during those hours.

But if they had heard some struggle, if they had heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me that they would lay low and be paralyzed by fear during those hours.

Okay, Chris mcdonnah joining me, Director Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, star of the Interview Room on YouTube where I found him, Chris mcdona, haven't we both agreed that these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the lowman on the totem.

Okay, Chris mcdonnah joining me, Director Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, star of the Interview Room on YouTube where I found him, Chris mcdona, haven't we both agreed that these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the lowman on the totem.

Pole in that they got the bottom of bedrooms and.

Pole in that they got the bottom of bedrooms and.

The house looks very different from the front than it does on the side than it does from the back. In the front of the house, Chris McDonough as Howard bloom So vividly lays out in his book, whoever has to live down there, you can't keep the light out, even if you use darkened curtains. Every time a car pulls up in that driveway, that parking area, and a lot of people do because.

The house looks very different from the front than it does on the side than it does from the back. In the front of the house, Chris McDonough as Howard bloom So vividly lays out in his book, whoever has to live down there, you can't keep the light out, even if you use darkened curtains. Every time a car pulls up in that driveway, that parking area, and a lot of people do because.

It's a very steep and narrow road.

It's a very steep and narrow road.

It's one of the only places to turn around and go back down the descent of the hill. This house is near the top of a hill and people are turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every house around is a party house. Constant traffic. So the lowman on the tone pole gets these two bedrooms, and that would be Dylan and Bethany air Ago. Therefore, Chris mcdonnaugh, they keep their doors locked and their curtains pulled almost.

It's one of the only places to turn around and go back down the descent of the hill. This house is near the top of a hill and people are turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every house around is a party house. Constant traffic. So the lowman on the tone pole gets these two bedrooms, and that would be Dylan and Bethany air Ago. Therefore, Chris mcdonnaugh, they keep their doors locked and their curtains pulled almost.

All the time.

All the time.

That is an entry point to get to the other floors. So people visiting the second third floor residents often come through that door. So they keep their doors locked, Chris mcdona and their curtains closed. And that's why, and Bloom lays it out in his book, that's why the doors were locked.

That is an entry point to get to the other floors. So people visiting the second third floor residents often come through that door. So they keep their doors locked, Chris mcdona and their curtains closed. And that's why, and Bloom lays it out in his book, that's why the doors were locked.

Yeah, absolutely, you're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you that you know the point of entry. Would you know, for an individual like this who has taken so much time to you know, plan this out, potentially to come through that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense. The back point of entry would make much more sense, which also brings us to you know, the communication thought processing. If I can comment on that for a moment. You know, today, you know, these this generation just communicates via text. Remember, up until four o'clock four am, they're still getting people knocking on that door, i e. The food delivery, et cetera. So it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at some point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating with each other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates, and quite frankly, when it goes quiet and coburger comes down those stairs, they may have even been thinking the party's over, this is the last guy out, and they may have even gone back to bed, and so that end of itself, the fear factor could play into this, or quite frankly, like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's an alcohol on board and they're just exhausted. They're just they're just college students. They're going back to sleep, and that would account.

Yeah, absolutely, you're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you that you know the point of entry. Would you know, for an individual like this who has taken so much time to you know, plan this out, potentially to come through that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense. The back point of entry would make much more sense, which also brings us to you know, the communication thought processing. If I can comment on that for a moment. You know, today, you know, these this generation just communicates via text. Remember, up until four o'clock four am, they're still getting people knocking on that door, i e. The food delivery, et cetera. So it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at some point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating with each other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates, and quite frankly, when it goes quiet and coburger comes down those stairs, they may have even been thinking the party's over, this is the last guy out, and they may have even gone back to bed, and so that end of itself, the fear factor could play into this, or quite frankly, like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's an alcohol on board and they're just exhausted. They're just they're just college students. They're going back to sleep, and that would account.

For the delay and much has been made to the fact that Coburger was wearing a mask. Why would she have not been suspicious of that? Do I have to say COVID?

For the delay and much has been made to the fact that Coburger was wearing a mask. Why would she have not been suspicious of that? Do I have to say COVID?

Yeah?

Yeah?

Absolutely, and that and that does you know play play into this?

Absolutely, and that and that does you know play play into this?

Now?

Now?

Early on we heard Killi Gorinsavis's parents speaking out stating she was the target. And I understand that because her wounds were so much.

Early on we heard Killi Gorinsavis's parents speaking out stating she was the target. And I understand that because her wounds were so much.

More heinous than Maddie's.

More heinous than Maddie's.

But according to this new Bombshield theory, Maddie was in fact the target. Also, we are learning from Horod Bloom's new book, When the Night Comes Falling, that there is blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian Coburger to protect his sweetheart Xenna. Kernodle to Howard Bloom, I know that you have researched this so much that it may have become you know, sop to you, but to us, the revelations that you make in your book are let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he was trying to protect Xenna, and that after he attacked Ethan, he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help you to Xena and then kills her.

But according to this new Bombshield theory, Maddie was in fact the target. Also, we are learning from Horod Bloom's new book, When the Night Comes Falling, that there is blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian Coburger to protect his sweetheart Xenna. Kernodle to Howard Bloom, I know that you have researched this so much that it may have become you know, sop to you, but to us, the revelations that you make in your book are let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he was trying to protect Xenna, and that after he attacked Ethan, he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help you to Xena and then kills her.

What facts support your theory.

What facts support your theory.

Ethan coming up to confront Coburger is with testimony that was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury that he was killed with a one massive cut to his neck that caught his jugular vein. Has to Xana speaking out, UH, first saying there's someone here, and then the assailants saying, I don't worry. I've come to help you. That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the suspect approaching Xana and saying, don't worry, I've come to help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total commitment UH to the crime and to taking this victim and to making sure that anyone who encounters him is not going to live.

Ethan coming up to confront Coburger is with testimony that was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury that he was killed with a one massive cut to his neck that caught his jugular vein. Has to Xana speaking out, UH, first saying there's someone here, and then the assailants saying, I don't worry. I've come to help you. That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the suspect approaching Xana and saying, don't worry, I've come to help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total commitment UH to the crime and to taking this victim and to making sure that anyone who encounters him is not going to live.

You go into each of the victim's backgrounds painstakingly, and Xanna just an upsetting background as a child, Both of her parents have been in and out of jail. And what does she do? She survives, She works harder and harder and harder. She's taken in by her aunt and she is victorious against all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining.

You go into each of the victim's backgrounds painstakingly, and Xanna just an upsetting background as a child, Both of her parents have been in and out of jail. And what does she do? She survives, She works harder and harder and harder. She's taken in by her aunt and she is victorious against all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining.

Joe Scott Morgan.

Joe Scott Morgan.

Her lying there in bed with her sweetheart Ethan. And you know, I think you were with us at some point at crime Con before last, Joe Scott, when I finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing.

Her lying there in bed with her sweetheart Ethan. And you know, I think you were with us at some point at crime Con before last, Joe Scott, when I finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing.

No, you were not with us.

No, you were not with us.

But then later when you were speaking, she stood up and started talking and during your address, and.

But then later when you were speaking, she stood up and started talking and during your address, and.

What a woman, the strength that mom had.

What a woman, the strength that mom had.

She just just remembering her and what she said to me at Crime Con still strikes me to this day. To you, Jo Scott, regarding the evidence, the blood spattered, the blood trail, the blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom is saying, I want to merge those because if I were telling this to a jury, I would have to I would have to describe what Howard Bloom says about how Coburger comes into the room and he is confronted by Ethan to protect his sweetheart Xanna. Ethan is murdered by a slicing stab to the juggler, and then the killer, as Ethan crumples to the ground, moves forward to his next target, Xena Kernodle, and she's afraid, and he says, don't worry.

She just just remembering her and what she said to me at Crime Con still strikes me to this day. To you, Jo Scott, regarding the evidence, the blood spattered, the blood trail, the blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom is saying, I want to merge those because if I were telling this to a jury, I would have to I would have to describe what Howard Bloom says about how Coburger comes into the room and he is confronted by Ethan to protect his sweetheart Xanna. Ethan is murdered by a slicing stab to the juggler, and then the killer, as Ethan crumples to the ground, moves forward to his next target, Xena Kernodle, and she's afraid, and he says, don't worry.

I'm here to help you explain how I can prove this at trial.

I'm here to help you explain how I can prove this at trial.

I think that when you think about progression, we talk about in forensics a commingling of evidence. And from the start with this case, and you're you know, you're trying to tie tie in the timeline, you're going to have commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene. And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first he Coburger, allegedly, would have had blood evidence on him, and not just on him, but also this weapon. As he's advancing into the Xana's room, he's already taken Ethan's life with the slice to the throat. He's going to advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact between the perpetrator and Xana. She fought back as well, Nancy. We have indication that at least through one report, that she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually went down to the level of the tendons. That means that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed hold of this blade as and then it's withdrawn and it slices through the palm of her hand. And we have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss the emotion, but you have to think about it as far as the progression if you want to try to zero in on this and get an idea as to the order of these events. I think probably the biggest thing that this jury is going to see in this case when they see these crime scene images Nancy, is that both of these locations, both of these rooms are going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence. The big question is, how did he clear that house without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other locations in that house or certainly within the confines of that car. How did he escape that without having blood all over the place at his apartment for instance, That remains to be seen.

I think that when you think about progression, we talk about in forensics a commingling of evidence. And from the start with this case, and you're you know, you're trying to tie tie in the timeline, you're going to have commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene. And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first he Coburger, allegedly, would have had blood evidence on him, and not just on him, but also this weapon. As he's advancing into the Xana's room, he's already taken Ethan's life with the slice to the throat. He's going to advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact between the perpetrator and Xana. She fought back as well, Nancy. We have indication that at least through one report, that she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually went down to the level of the tendons. That means that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed hold of this blade as and then it's withdrawn and it slices through the palm of her hand. And we have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss the emotion, but you have to think about it as far as the progression if you want to try to zero in on this and get an idea as to the order of these events. I think probably the biggest thing that this jury is going to see in this case when they see these crime scene images Nancy, is that both of these locations, both of these rooms are going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence. The big question is, how did he clear that house without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other locations in that house or certainly within the confines of that car. How did he escape that without having blood all over the place at his apartment for instance, That remains to be seen.

You know, Bryan C.

You know, Bryan C.

Stewart joining US veteran trial lawyer, managing partner at Parker and Maconcole. He practices in this jurisdiction Idaho and Utah. You know, the defense is really going to have a heck of a time because the predatory nature of what was said to Xanna.

Stewart joining US veteran trial lawyer, managing partner at Parker and Maconcole. He practices in this jurisdiction Idaho and Utah. You know, the defense is really going to have a heck of a time because the predatory nature of what was said to Xanna.

Think about it.

Think about it.

Think about it, I would lay it out for a jury just as I believe it happened. Coburger walks into that dark room, Ethan jumps up from the bed. He approaches Coburger to protect his sweetheart, xanaker Noodle, who's still lying in the bed. He's immediately sliced across a jugular and falls to his death.

Think about it, I would lay it out for a jury just as I believe it happened. Coburger walks into that dark room, Ethan jumps up from the bed. He approaches Coburger to protect his sweetheart, xanaker Noodle, who's still lying in the bed. He's immediately sliced across a jugular and falls to his death.

Right here.

Right here.

He then advances on Xanna, whose line in bed, and he says the deceiving words, don't worry, I'm here to help you, before he murders her. He is well within his wits, he is prepossessed of mind, and he has a wherewithal to lie and deceive Xanna. The predatory nature of his advancing silently towards Xanna Kernodle is bone chilling.

He then advances on Xanna, whose line in bed, and he says the deceiving words, don't worry, I'm here to help you, before he murders her. He is well within his wits, he is prepossessed of mind, and he has a wherewithal to lie and deceive Xanna. The predatory nature of his advancing silently towards Xanna Kernodle is bone chilling.

I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear minded and intentional about everything that he did that night. And you know, while we have to prove mensrea or a mental component in order to get a conviction that doesn't necessarily include the motive.

I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear minded and intentional about everything that he did that night. And you know, while we have to prove mensrea or a mental component in order to get a conviction that doesn't necessarily include the motive.

Or motivation for why he did the crimes.

Or motivation for why he did the crimes.

The mensraa would would mean that they have to prove that he intended the actions that he did, which he clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives. And it's impossible from the evidence that's available to say that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't intend to take their lives, and it and it should be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the ruthlessness of his of his actions.

The mensraa would would mean that they have to prove that he intended the actions that he did, which he clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives. And it's impossible from the evidence that's available to say that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't intend to take their lives, and it and it should be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the ruthlessness of his of his actions.

How you know it?

How you know it?

How y'all do it today?

How y'all do it today?

Good? Good?

Good? Good?

Take look your driver's lines and real quick if I could.

Take look your driver's lines and real quick if I could.

So, he's right up on that man.

So, he's right up on that man.

Man, you right up on the back end of that man, old job for tailgating? Is this your car?

Man, you right up on the back end of that man, old job for tailgating? Is this your car?

Okay? Cool?

Okay? Cool?

Where are you headed?

Where are you headed?

Well? Were coming from w R s U.

Well? Were coming from w R s U.

Where are you headed? He later says, we're going for thie food? And the dad's like what you were seeing? Bodycam video when a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriffes Department bodycam when they pull them over and ask to see.

Where are you headed? He later says, we're going for thie food? And the dad's like what you were seeing? Bodycam video when a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriffes Department bodycam when they pull them over and ask to see.

Coburger's driver's license.

Coburger's driver's license.

Now, it was arguing back and forth, and I claimed vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two pullovers by local l E law enforcement in one trip home. When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over? I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh no, that's stunt to high heaven with me right now. Howard Bloom, author of a brand new book, When the Night Comes Falling a requiem for the Ito student murders, which is amazing, and in his book he outlined how these two pullovers nearly costs the FBI their investigation, or so they thought.

Now, it was arguing back and forth, and I claimed vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two pullovers by local l E law enforcement in one trip home. When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over? I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh no, that's stunt to high heaven with me right now. Howard Bloom, author of a brand new book, When the Night Comes Falling a requiem for the Ito student murders, which is amazing, and in his book he outlined how these two pullovers nearly costs the FBI their investigation, or so they thought.

Take a listen to more of the pullover.

Take a listen to more of the pullover.

What's w s U? Yeah, what's very oppos that is wat's Maria?

What's w s U? Yeah, what's very oppos that is wat's Maria?

Sure?

Sure?

Okay, I have a hard time period because of the traffic.

Okay, I have a hard time period because of the traffic.

So you're coming from Washington State University and you're going where oh wouldn't be going.

So you're coming from Washington State University and you're going where oh wouldn't be going.

Back to day Okay, yeah, we're a little lightly much.

Back to day Okay, yeah, we're a little lightly much.

How to Howard Bloom, I'm gonna circle back to the fact that unasked, he starts talking about SWAT teams swarming the area.

How to Howard Bloom, I'm gonna circle back to the fact that unasked, he starts talking about SWAT teams swarming the area.

Methink thou dost protest too much?

Methink thou dost protest too much?

In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, nobody asked, nobody asked.

In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, nobody asked, nobody asked.

Yet he's dead.

Yet he's dead.

He's just regurgitating, vomiting the information.

He's just regurgitating, vomiting the information.

When nobody asked.

When nobody asked.

But I want to circle back to the so called hat Box operation that you described so well in your book When the Night Comes Falling? Explain and why did the FBI, who absolutely was following Coburger as he and his dad across the country.

But I want to circle back to the so called hat Box operation that you described so well in your book When the Night Comes Falling? Explain and why did the FBI, who absolutely was following Coburger as he and his dad across the country.

Thought that their entire operation may go up in flames.

Thought that their entire operation may go up in flames.

Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before they even told the Moscow Task Force. They kept this to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first reason was that it was the identification was based on the genealogy genetics investigative genetic genealogy, and.

Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before they even told the Moscow Task Force. They kept this to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first reason was that it was the identification was based on the genealogy genetics investigative genetic genealogy, and.

They thought that wouldn't hold up in court.

They thought that wouldn't hold up in court.

Or a much more cynical explanation would be that the FBI I didn't want to share the credit for Coburg's arrest with anyone else.

Or a much more cynical explanation would be that the FBI I didn't want to share the credit for Coburg's arrest with anyone else.

So they go off and follow him.

So they go off and follow him.

And they have cars, they have a plane in the air that's following his route. And suddenly they see Coburger being stopped and they don't know what's going on, and they don't know what to do. Had a they think a local cop, a local sheriff had seen the be on the lookout for notice and swooped in on this Hondai, a Lantra, or they're also wondering how is Coburger going to react he is a suspect in a quadruple homicide. Is he going to get on the put his foot on the accelerator and tear out, or perhaps he's going to shoot anything as possible of the officer who's coming in to give him this traffic ticket. The FBI decides to stand back and see what happens. To their great relief, Coburger is allowed to go through, and they figure, well, this.

And they have cars, they have a plane in the air that's following his route. And suddenly they see Coburger being stopped and they don't know what's going on, and they don't know what to do. Had a they think a local cop, a local sheriff had seen the be on the lookout for notice and swooped in on this Hondai, a Lantra, or they're also wondering how is Coburger going to react he is a suspect in a quadruple homicide. Is he going to get on the put his foot on the accelerator and tear out, or perhaps he's going to shoot anything as possible of the officer who's coming in to give him this traffic ticket. The FBI decides to stand back and see what happens. To their great relief, Coburger is allowed to go through, and they figure, well, this.

Is just a traffic stop of some kind. Been nine minutes later.

Is just a traffic stop of some kind. Been nine minutes later.

It's almost laughable, Howard, because that the FBI actually has a bird in the air watching. They see one pullover by the Hancock Kenny Sheriffs, and Coburger goes on his way.

It's almost laughable, Howard, because that the FBI actually has a bird in the air watching. They see one pullover by the Hancock Kenny Sheriffs, and Coburger goes on his way.

And then there's another pullover.

And then there's another pullover.

Don't you know they're like, what is happening down there? Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And they're watching from a bird, right.

Don't you know they're like, what is happening down there? Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And they're watching from a bird, right.

Yes, they have assess and they're flying overhead.

Yes, they have assess and they're flying overhead.

You know, it's a hawk waiting to swoop down in case anything happens in effect, and they've been building this case for six weeks and they're finally getting closer, and they think the whole case is going to be blown apart before they've connected all the dots, and they are filled with a sense of panic.

You know, it's a hawk waiting to swoop down in case anything happens in effect, and they've been building this case for six weeks and they're finally getting closer, and they think the whole case is going to be blown apart before they've connected all the dots, and they are filled with a sense of panic.

But discipline, how.

But discipline, how.

They were right and this is no offense to Indiana at all.

They were right and this is no offense to Indiana at all.

But I understand where.

But I understand where.

The FBI is coming from, and you know how much I hate the FEDS. But that said Chris mcdunn ad joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective and star of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, if they had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and they arrested him or sped off, anything could have happened. Because we can't We can't predict what Coburger is going to do. Just like his father, he had no idea what his son might do. We would never have gotten the evidence that we got. When they finally got home to the Pocono area, remember they were surveilled. They went in finally or in the early morning hours. They catch him, I think, in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and separating his trash from everybody else's trash and they see him go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle.

The FBI is coming from, and you know how much I hate the FEDS. But that said Chris mcdunn ad joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective and star of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, if they had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and they arrested him or sped off, anything could have happened. Because we can't We can't predict what Coburger is going to do. Just like his father, he had no idea what his son might do. We would never have gotten the evidence that we got. When they finally got home to the Pocono area, remember they were surveilled. They went in finally or in the early morning hours. They catch him, I think, in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and separating his trash from everybody else's trash and they see him go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle.

None of them.

None of them.

That would have happened if local authorities had to arrested Coburger for a traffic violation, or if Coburger spun out and brought about his own arrest. So I understand why they were worried.

That would have happened if local authorities had to arrested Coburger for a traffic violation, or if Coburger spun out and brought about his own arrest. So I understand why they were worried.

Yeah, and absolutely, and not only that. If you remember, this officer is leaning in, so if he would have seen anything in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan was talking about, you know, any blood transfer or anything like that, Well, the clock starts ticking right then and there. If this officer starts diving into this traffic stop, that you may have this fugitive Task Force surveillance team you know, overhead and behind him going hey, what the heck is going on here? So, and quite frankly, I hate to say it, but I've seen this as well as many others, numerous at times where you know, this thing could have gone south really fast. But fortunately they cut him loose and they were able to connect those dots.

Yeah, and absolutely, and not only that. If you remember, this officer is leaning in, so if he would have seen anything in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan was talking about, you know, any blood transfer or anything like that, Well, the clock starts ticking right then and there. If this officer starts diving into this traffic stop, that you may have this fugitive Task Force surveillance team you know, overhead and behind him going hey, what the heck is going on here? So, and quite frankly, I hate to say it, but I've seen this as well as many others, numerous at times where you know, this thing could have gone south really fast. But fortunately they cut him loose and they were able to connect those dots.

Later on h M.

Later on h M.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

And what did you say about some swat team thing? Yes, there was, Yeah, there was a NASS shooting you know where, that was good. Interesting, it's horrifying.

And what did you say about some swat team thing? Yes, there was, Yeah, there was a NASS shooting you know where, that was good. Interesting, it's horrifying.

These I want to tell you'll talk about volunteering. That's Coburger talking about the swat team as it related to a different homicide.

These I want to tell you'll talk about volunteering. That's Coburger talking about the swat team as it related to a different homicide.

But as you can see, he's.

But as you can see, he's.

Going on and on and on about murders and swat teams that he wasn't asked about.

Going on and on and on about murders and swat teams that he wasn't asked about.

And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam.

And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam.

So sure y'all work at the university here?

So sure y'all work at the university here?

Actually the.

Actually the.

Huge okay, okay.

Huge okay, okay.

Yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident just yesterday or.

Yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident just yesterday or.

About an hour, and yet all was still wrapping up.

About an hour, and yet all was still wrapping up.

I want not show this tutions if they could shoot somebody as they and then you don't know about that actuating.

I want not show this tutions if they could shoot somebody as they and then you don't know about that actuating.

It's really hard to hear it.

It's really hard to hear it.

Remember that bodycam that Ellie is wearing on their shoulder, and you hear the deputy saying interesting, interesting, and you hear Coburger's father, Michael say, well, it's horrifying. So Coburger knew very well how his father would view a murder, much less a quadruple murder.

Remember that bodycam that Ellie is wearing on their shoulder, and you hear the deputy saying interesting, interesting, and you hear Coburger's father, Michael say, well, it's horrifying. So Coburger knew very well how his father would view a murder, much less a quadruple murder.

So whild the FBI and their bird in the air of.

So whild the FBI and their bird in the air of.

The helicopter at SASNA is watching two times police pull over Coburger in route home. Howard Bloom in his book When the Night Comes Falling, describes a quote hat box operation. Only if you're in law enforcement, would you know what that means? What does that mean? And what is it?

The helicopter at SASNA is watching two times police pull over Coburger in route home. Howard Bloom in his book When the Night Comes Falling, describes a quote hat box operation. Only if you're in law enforcement, would you know what that means? What does that mean? And what is it?

How does it relate to Coburger?

How does it relate to Coburger?

The hat box operation goes back to the days of the g men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras and they would trail people on the street. They'd have the fedoras over their brill cream hat. Well, their surveillance techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes, and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means you're going to follow this guy. It's a complete operation. You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony is the FBI loses Coburger for a while. They don't pick him up till a couple of hours later because he's taken a different route than the one they expected, and they pick him up through a license plate reader in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him.

The hat box operation goes back to the days of the g men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras and they would trail people on the street. They'd have the fedoras over their brill cream hat. Well, their surveillance techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes, and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means you're going to follow this guy. It's a complete operation. You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony is the FBI loses Coburger for a while. They don't pick him up till a couple of hours later because he's taken a different route than the one they expected, and they pick him up through a license plate reader in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him.

And it really befuddles me.

And it really befuddles me.

Why in the last minute, after all of his father's research about the best route home, it was a long drive. He Coburger comes up with a very roundabout circuitous route home. It takes hours longer than necessary, and his father is so walking on eggshields around his son Coburger. Then he goes, Okay, you're the boss, Fine, we'll go your way, even though it made no sense and that was not the route the FBI was expecting and they lose.

Why in the last minute, after all of his father's research about the best route home, it was a long drive. He Coburger comes up with a very roundabout circuitous route home. It takes hours longer than necessary, and his father is so walking on eggshields around his son Coburger. Then he goes, Okay, you're the boss, Fine, we'll go your way, even though it made no sense and that was not the route the FBI was expecting and they lose.

Coburger reminds me of the securitiest route.

Coburger reminds me of the securitiest route.

I believe he took the night after the murders to get back home. Oh my stars, we've got all the digital evidence to get to the turning the phone off, the turning the phone on, the cell phone towers. And it's really interesting speaking of that, Howard, into your book, you talk about out a pitch that Coburger makes to the local PD trying to get a job an internship, and you quote what he says in his pitch, and I found it really interesting how he would help rural police departments better analyze sell and digital data to incorporate it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me, of course, he didn't get the job, by the way, but it tells me how intricately familiar he is with digital evidence and supports the theory that he intentionally turned off his phone when he left the King Road address and when he went into the King Road address.

I believe he took the night after the murders to get back home. Oh my stars, we've got all the digital evidence to get to the turning the phone off, the turning the phone on, the cell phone towers. And it's really interesting speaking of that, Howard, into your book, you talk about out a pitch that Coburger makes to the local PD trying to get a job an internship, and you quote what he says in his pitch, and I found it really interesting how he would help rural police departments better analyze sell and digital data to incorporate it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me, of course, he didn't get the job, by the way, but it tells me how intricately familiar he is with digital evidence and supports the theory that he intentionally turned off his phone when he left the King Road address and when he went into the King Road address.

Yes, no, very much so.

Yes, no, very much so.

Also that short note he writes reflects his arrogance, his sort of condescending attitude. Is he the criminology doctoral candidate, he knows more than the local police. The irony is that within months that would be used against him, the evidence that they had compiled from cell phones and cell phone towered data.

Also that short note he writes reflects his arrogance, his sort of condescending attitude. Is he the criminology doctoral candidate, he knows more than the local police. The irony is that within months that would be used against him, the evidence that they had compiled from cell phones and cell phone towered data.

Howard you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a purchase of a uniform at Walmart.

Howard you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a purchase of a uniform at Walmart.

How does that play into this investigation?

How does that play into this investigation?

Well, Coberger has a blue Dicky's work uniform, a work out that a one piece sort of body suit that he bought, and police are now theorizing that he wore that suit on the night of the killings. That's how he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his car whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed the suit put it into a plastic bag garbage bag, they theorize, and that it also explains that long route home that that you've mentioned previously. He found a place to dispose of this Dickie's worksuit that was covered in blood, and also the murder weapon you refer.

Well, Coberger has a blue Dicky's work uniform, a work out that a one piece sort of body suit that he bought, and police are now theorizing that he wore that suit on the night of the killings. That's how he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his car whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed the suit put it into a plastic bag garbage bag, they theorize, and that it also explains that long route home that that you've mentioned previously. He found a place to dispose of this Dickie's worksuit that was covered in blood, and also the murder weapon you refer.

To a Dicky's work suit. I believe it was purchased at Walmart, and that would explain not only why his clothes were not covered in blood, but the Dickie's work suit, I think is a jumper that you put on over your clothes if you wish, and that was never recovered. But to the receipt. Did the receipt reveal when the uniform was purchased.

To a Dicky's work suit. I believe it was purchased at Walmart, and that would explain not only why his clothes were not covered in blood, but the Dickie's work suit, I think is a jumper that you put on over your clothes if you wish, and that was never recovered. But to the receipt. Did the receipt reveal when the uniform was purchased.

It was purchased at the best I've been able to ascertain. I'm sure they have the exact date. I was it was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what I was told. I don't have the exact date.

It was purchased at the best I've been able to ascertain. I'm sure they have the exact date. I was it was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what I was told. I don't have the exact date.

So not any time that he was working in systems.

So not any time that he was working in systems.

Remember he had a job where he was kind of like a repair guy way back when this suit, this Dickie's work suit, was purchased just before the murders. And another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints filed against him at Washington State University by female students, and it went on and on and on. It wasn't an overnight thing. The faculty, the administration there went to great pains to document what was stated and to give him a chance to explain it. But you describe Howard the whole way home, how Coburger was seething about what had been said about him by these female students, and more important, how he was going to beat the rap and how they could not fire him.

Remember he had a job where he was kind of like a repair guy way back when this suit, this Dickie's work suit, was purchased just before the murders. And another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints filed against him at Washington State University by female students, and it went on and on and on. It wasn't an overnight thing. The faculty, the administration there went to great pains to document what was stated and to give him a chance to explain it. But you describe Howard the whole way home, how Coburger was seething about what had been said about him by these female students, and more important, how he was going to beat the rap and how they could not fire him.

He was going to fight back.

He was going to fight back.

Little did he know they had already sent an email telling him it's over, or sent him a letter telling him it was all over. But that seething that you describing your book was riveting.

Little did he know they had already sent an email telling him it's over, or sent him a letter telling him it was all over. But that seething that you describing your book was riveting.

Yes, when he takes this trip across country with his father, he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe he thought he was going to be able to return to Washington State after the Christmas break and he would start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up against him, he could talk his way out of it.

Yes, when he takes this trip across country with his father, he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe he thought he was going to be able to return to Washington State after the Christmas break and he would start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up against him, he could talk his way out of it.

That's what he kept on telling his father. I can beat this. They can fire me without my having a hearing, and I can act.

That's what he kept on telling his father. I can beat this. They can fire me without my having a hearing, and I can act.

In my own as my own defense attorney, and I can convince them that I should not be fired.

In my own as my own defense attorney, and I can convince them that I should not be fired.

He needed this job. This job, this teaching.

He needed this job. This job, this teaching.

Assistant, paid for his twenty nine thousand dollars a year or so tuition and board.

Assistant, paid for his twenty nine thousand dollars a year or so tuition and board.

You know, I looked at your sources at the end of your book, and I don't see the sources for what was said in that car, his seething anger about these women. How dare they complain about him? Are you keeping many of your sources secret?

You know, I looked at your sources at the end of your book, and I don't see the sources for what was said in that car, his seething anger about these women. How dare they complain about him? Are you keeping many of your sources secret?

Well, I've made arrangements with the people I spoke to that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do is pretty much why I started into This is what the FBI did. They built a family tree, genetic clusters, and so they worked their way to Brian Coburger. I did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people who were related to the Coburger family. I kept on knocking on doors, reaching out to them until I got some of them who were in conversations with the Coburgers to talk to me. And that was my primary sources. Also, there were people in the town who had also spoken to them, in the whole Strausburg al Brightesville area of Pennsylvania.

Well, I've made arrangements with the people I spoke to that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do is pretty much why I started into This is what the FBI did. They built a family tree, genetic clusters, and so they worked their way to Brian Coburger. I did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people who were related to the Coburger family. I kept on knocking on doors, reaching out to them until I got some of them who were in conversations with the Coburgers to talk to me. And that was my primary sources. Also, there were people in the town who had also spoken to them, in the whole Strausburg al Brightesville area of Pennsylvania.

In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning the austere room where the murder case was worked at police headquarters, and he said, as law enforcement divided their facts, marshaled their evidence into two categories empirical and rhetorical.

In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning the austere room where the murder case was worked at police headquarters, and he said, as law enforcement divided their facts, marshaled their evidence into two categories empirical and rhetorical.

Empirical the hard evidence. Rhetorical the why.

Empirical the hard evidence. Rhetorical the why.

And that's what we are doing tonight again, Howard Bloom, Thank you for your book and for joining us again to part two of the analysis. And we barely scratch the surface the analysis of what you have learned about the Coburger investigation. Thank you to our other expert witnesses, but especially to you for joining us as we seek justice in our own way. Nancy Gray signing off, good night friend,

And that's what we are doing tonight again, Howard Bloom, Thank you for your book and for joining us again to part two of the analysis. And we barely scratch the surface the analysis of what you have learned about the Coburger investigation. Thank you to our other expert witnesses, but especially to you for joining us as we seek justice in our own way. Nancy Gray signing off, good night friend,