I'm Rebecca Levoy and this is you Can't Make This Up. You Can't Make This Up as the podcast where we uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. On today's episode, we take a closer look at the Netflix documentary film Bitcomned.

I'm Rebecca Levoy and this is you Can't Make This Up. You Can't Make This Up as the podcast where we uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. On today's episode, we take a closer look at the Netflix documentary film Bitcomned.

We didn't know anything about this fucking business, but it didn't matter at all.

We didn't know anything about this fucking business, but it didn't matter at all.

It was too easy.

It was too easy.

We lied, we cheated, and made millions of dollars, and now I'm facing over onundred years.

We lied, we cheated, and made millions of dollars, and now I'm facing over onundred years.

Today we're talking to director Brian Storkel. At the height of the bitcoin boom, Ray for Pani and his friends created a debit card for cryptocurrency. Even though the technology didn't work and the card was a scam, Centritech was making millions of dollars a day, but anyone looking at the operation would discover cut and paste business plans, fake executives, and glitchy technology. Once they tried to pass themselves off to The New York Times as legitimate, the whole thing fell apart.

Today we're talking to director Brian Storkel. At the height of the bitcoin boom, Ray for Pani and his friends created a debit card for cryptocurrency. Even though the technology didn't work and the card was a scam, Centritech was making millions of dollars a day, but anyone looking at the operation would discover cut and paste business plans, fake executives, and glitchy technology. Once they tried to pass themselves off to The New York Times as legitimate, the whole thing fell apart.

Bitcoon.

Bitcoon.

Let's Trapanie tell a story of fun, fame, and fraud as he awaits sentencing for the first high profile case of the crypto era. Was it real? No? But did it work.

Let's Trapanie tell a story of fun, fame, and fraud as he awaits sentencing for the first high profile case of the crypto era. Was it real? No? But did it work.

Maybe people can't give up on the promise, and part of that promise is just the simple one that you can get rich quickly.

Maybe people can't give up on the promise, and part of that promise is just the simple one that you can get rich quickly.

And I'm joined by director Brian Storkel. Brian, Welcome to You Can't make This up.

And I'm joined by director Brian Storkel. Brian, Welcome to You Can't make This up.

Hey, thanks for having me.

Hey, thanks for having me.

So this story is about the rise and fall of a cryptocurrency based product from a company called Center Tech, and it's mostly total from the perspective of Ray Trapani. So we hear from the top that he was caught in a crypto scam and at that moment was awaiting sentencing for his role in that scam. Why did Ray agree to talk with you?

So this story is about the rise and fall of a cryptocurrency based product from a company called Center Tech, and it's mostly total from the perspective of Ray Trapani. So we hear from the top that he was caught in a crypto scam and at that moment was awaiting sentencing for his role in that scam. Why did Ray agree to talk with you?

You know, that's a really good question, and I should ask him that again.

You know, that's a really good question, and I should ask him that again.

Now that we're that we're done with this.

Now that we're that we're done with this.

Some people just like to talk, I think, and he had a great story and really wanted to share it, I think part of it without giving too much away, But he's you know, gone through the process of you know, everything, having to deal with his case and is kind of able to talk about it more now.

Some people just like to talk, I think, and he had a great story and really wanted to share it, I think part of it without giving too much away, But he's you know, gone through the process of you know, everything, having to deal with his case and is kind of able to talk about it more now.

Yeah. So Ray says in the beginning that growing up he always wanted to be a criminal, and at first I thought he was being you know, maybe a little self reflective, a little bit of nuance there, but he literally says I always wanted to be a criminal. And I didn't miss it right, Like he wasn't being nuanced. He kind of always wanted to be a criminal.

Yeah. So Ray says in the beginning that growing up he always wanted to be a criminal, and at first I thought he was being you know, maybe a little self reflective, a little bit of nuance there, but he literally says I always wanted to be a criminal. And I didn't miss it right, Like he wasn't being nuanced. He kind of always wanted to be a criminal.

No, Yeah, we asked him that multiple times. I mean, that's a very I haven't heard anyone else say that ever since I was a kid, I've always wanted to be a criminal. It was never like I'm going to be a doctor or I'm going to be a scientist. I you know, if I could have put it in my eyearbook, I would have put I wanted to a criminal. And I think it had to do with, you know, being around his grandpa and the image that his grandfather portrayed was something he looked up to, which was somewhat criminal. It's questionable as to say whether it was, you know, definitively criminal, but the image he saw was very much scarface or you know, some you know, mobster type grandfather.

No, Yeah, we asked him that multiple times. I mean, that's a very I haven't heard anyone else say that ever since I was a kid, I've always wanted to be a criminal. It was never like I'm going to be a doctor or I'm going to be a scientist. I you know, if I could have put it in my eyearbook, I would have put I wanted to a criminal. And I think it had to do with, you know, being around his grandpa and the image that his grandfather portrayed was something he looked up to, which was somewhat criminal. It's questionable as to say whether it was, you know, definitively criminal, but the image he saw was very much scarface or you know, some you know, mobster type grandfather.

The imagery of your interviews with Ray is really interesting and great. The scenes that he's in and throughout the film, you cut back and forth to him getting fitted for this custom suit and the tailor keeps asking him questions about his life also, and they're getting good answers the people in the room with him, you know, helping him fit the suit. So did you plan that to have the tailors ask him questions or were they just good conversationalists because of the work that they do with men like Ray.

The imagery of your interviews with Ray is really interesting and great. The scenes that he's in and throughout the film, you cut back and forth to him getting fitted for this custom suit and the tailor keeps asking him questions about his life also, and they're getting good answers the people in the room with him, you know, helping him fit the suit. So did you plan that to have the tailors ask him questions or were they just good conversationalists because of the work that they do with men like Ray.

Yeah, that was a beautiful little accident, honestly, Like, we did one main interview with Ray, and then we took him back to a bunch of locations where we were going to do little mini interviews, and this was this was kind of one of those I was gonna after he got the suit try, you know, fitted, We were going to have him stand there and answer a couple of questions. But we kind of framed up the camera so that he was looking into the mirror and the tailors were still working on him, and they asked maybe one question, and I was just like, keep going, keep going, ask him some more, ask him some more.

Yeah, that was a beautiful little accident, honestly, Like, we did one main interview with Ray, and then we took him back to a bunch of locations where we were going to do little mini interviews, and this was this was kind of one of those I was gonna after he got the suit try, you know, fitted, We were going to have him stand there and answer a couple of questions. But we kind of framed up the camera so that he was looking into the mirror and the tailors were still working on him, and they asked maybe one question, and I was just like, keep going, keep going, ask him some more, ask him some more.

And how much have you made in total? On paper?

And how much have you made in total? On paper?

Thirty two million, but like in reality we made like a few hundred million. That's great, Yeah, two pennies.

Thirty two million, but like in reality we made like a few hundred million. That's great, Yeah, two pennies.

Would you do it again?

Would you do it again?

I always go back to this point of like, if I knew one hundred percent that I was going to make thirty million dollars doing something illegal, would I do it or.

I always go back to this point of like, if I knew one hundred percent that I was going to make thirty million dollars doing something illegal, would I do it or.

Would I not?

Would I not?

Because they were genuinely interested in his story, and I think, you know, coming from that place of curiosity, it's so much more fascinating and so much you know, it's not staged in the sense that even a sit down, formal interview would be with a director.

Because they were genuinely interested in his story, and I think, you know, coming from that place of curiosity, it's so much more fascinating and so much you know, it's not staged in the sense that even a sit down, formal interview would be with a director.

So they crushed it and we just let him keep going. We're like, yeah, this is gold, keep going, keep going.

So they crushed it and we just let him keep going. We're like, yeah, this is gold, keep going, keep going.

So we hear his friend Andrew talk about this prescription drug ring they ran, and when the cops busted them, Ray read it out Andrew and his friends and walked away free and clear. So my question is did Ray get the tattoo that says loyalty before or after that.

So we hear his friend Andrew talk about this prescription drug ring they ran, and when the cops busted them, Ray read it out Andrew and his friends and walked away free and clear. So my question is did Ray get the tattoo that says loyalty before or after that.

I believe that was before, but I think Ray would also dispute as to whether he ratted them out, so he you know, there's different stories, two sides to that, I think, but he definitely has had that tattoo for quite some time. And I think what's interesting is there's another person in the film, one of the other central founders, who also has a similar loyalty tattoo. That's a little bit smaller but similar one.

I believe that was before, but I think Ray would also dispute as to whether he ratted them out, so he you know, there's different stories, two sides to that, I think, but he definitely has had that tattoo for quite some time. And I think what's interesting is there's another person in the film, one of the other central founders, who also has a similar loyalty tattoo. That's a little bit smaller but similar one.

Yeah, and you have that great shot of him lifting weights, and you've got a really great shot of that loyalty tattoo. Was that on purpose?

Yeah, and you have that great shot of him lifting weights, and you've got a really great shot of that loyalty tattoo. Was that on purpose?

Yeah? Definitely.

Yeah? Definitely.

Yeah, we needed to see him with his shirt off. I mean, this is you know, it's that kind of movie.

Yeah, we needed to see him with his shirt off. I mean, this is you know, it's that kind of movie.

So there is this lingering question throughout the film about Ray's grandfather and his origin story, and it's implied that he may have been connected in some way to the mob. Maybe it's one of those things that no one seems to really want to talk about, but they kind of want you to think about, or you want us to think about. And I'm just curious, like, was that just bluster? Is that just like family lore? What do you think?

So there is this lingering question throughout the film about Ray's grandfather and his origin story, and it's implied that he may have been connected in some way to the mob. Maybe it's one of those things that no one seems to really want to talk about, but they kind of want you to think about, or you want us to think about. And I'm just curious, like, was that just bluster? Is that just like family lore? What do you think?

You know, I think there's some truth to it, but how much I'm not sure. I mean, it's great talking to his grandma Pat like she's one of my favorite parts of the film, and just the way she kind of dismisses it. It's like, ah, no, he wasn't in the mafia. You know, he had something to do with the elevator business. I mean that it just leaves so many questions and they definitely you know, both Ray's mom, who was his grandmother's daughter. Obviously she said she saw money laying around, you know, suitcases full of money. There was definitely times where Ray found money, like, you know, large amounts under the mattress and things, and you know, it's that kind of I think, anytime you're dealing with that amount of cash, that was one of the big red flags. But then also just his grandfather Pop presented this image that was very much of a movie.

You know, I think there's some truth to it, but how much I'm not sure. I mean, it's great talking to his grandma Pat like she's one of my favorite parts of the film, and just the way she kind of dismisses it. It's like, ah, no, he wasn't in the mafia. You know, he had something to do with the elevator business. I mean that it just leaves so many questions and they definitely you know, both Ray's mom, who was his grandmother's daughter. Obviously she said she saw money laying around, you know, suitcases full of money. There was definitely times where Ray found money, like, you know, large amounts under the mattress and things, and you know, it's that kind of I think, anytime you're dealing with that amount of cash, that was one of the big red flags. But then also just his grandfather Pop presented this image that was very much of a movie.

You know.

You know.

The stories that people tell about him make it feel like he was one of those guys from Goodfellas, right.

The stories that people tell about him make it feel like he was one of those guys from Goodfellas, right.

And the fact that his wife can't actually say what his actual job was but something to do with the elevator business, doesn't help dispel that legend, right right, right. There is a tension in Ray's life between wanting to run some sort of criminal enterprise and get rich and wanting to be legitimate to make his family proud. And that's where this luxury rental car business comes into play. Is there any chance that Ray and Sorby could have made that work instead of pivoting to crypto Maybe if they had just curbed their personal spending a little bit.

And the fact that his wife can't actually say what his actual job was but something to do with the elevator business, doesn't help dispel that legend, right right, right. There is a tension in Ray's life between wanting to run some sort of criminal enterprise and get rich and wanting to be legitimate to make his family proud. And that's where this luxury rental car business comes into play. Is there any chance that Ray and Sorby could have made that work instead of pivoting to crypto Maybe if they had just curbed their personal spending a little bit.

I think possibly.

I think possibly.

But you've got a couple young guys in Miami with a lot of money and exotic cars, and it's not going to end well. I don't think for guys in their twenties in that situation that too many people would be able to have much longevity with that of business.

But you've got a couple young guys in Miami with a lot of money and exotic cars, and it's not going to end well. I don't think for guys in their twenties in that situation that too many people would be able to have much longevity with that of business.

So, for reasons that we learned later on, we don't get to hear much from Sorby himself in bitcoinn I'm curious, Brian, what are your impressions of Sorby?

So, for reasons that we learned later on, we don't get to hear much from Sorby himself in bitcoinn I'm curious, Brian, what are your impressions of Sorby?

Yeah, I all I know is what I've read in the media and talked to, you know. I've talked to his family. I've talked to people that knew him, that used to date him, that are you know, coupled with him now. I've talked to, you know, all sorts of people that have spent a lot of time with him. But one of the frustrations is I never got to talk to him. And I worked for a long time, over a year, to try to get an interview with him for the film. I've talked with his lawyers as well. I made trips to Miami, and you know, just really tried to get him on board, and I think because he had some ongoing appeals, he wasn't able to speak. So we kept We kept trying up until the end, and it was always like we'd get a reply from one of his lawyers saying, Okay, he's ready to talk now, and then something.

Yeah, I all I know is what I've read in the media and talked to, you know. I've talked to his family. I've talked to people that knew him, that used to date him, that are you know, coupled with him now. I've talked to, you know, all sorts of people that have spent a lot of time with him. But one of the frustrations is I never got to talk to him. And I worked for a long time, over a year, to try to get an interview with him for the film. I've talked with his lawyers as well. I made trips to Miami, and you know, just really tried to get him on board, and I think because he had some ongoing appeals, he wasn't able to speak. So we kept We kept trying up until the end, and it was always like we'd get a reply from one of his lawyers saying, Okay, he's ready to talk now, and then something.

Would go wrong and we wouldn't be able to get it.

Would go wrong and we wouldn't be able to get it.

And even after I turned in the film, I got a mysage from you know, his brother in law basically saying, Hey, he's ready to talk now, he's ready to be interviewed. Is it too late? I was like, yeah, it's too late. Unfortunately it's too late. Yes, we're airing it in, you know, in a month. I wish I could say more about him and really understand him more, but not having a personal relationship with him or conversations with him, I don't I can't really tell what, you know, what's really going on inside of his head.

And even after I turned in the film, I got a mysage from you know, his brother in law basically saying, Hey, he's ready to talk now, he's ready to be interviewed. Is it too late? I was like, yeah, it's too late. Unfortunately it's too late. Yes, we're airing it in, you know, in a month. I wish I could say more about him and really understand him more, but not having a personal relationship with him or conversations with him, I don't I can't really tell what, you know, what's really going on inside of his head.

Yeah, I wish, you know, I could understand him a little more too, because one of the things that I couldn't work out is why Ray you know, wanted to continue to work with him. I mean the business breakup after that, the car business breakup wasn't necessarily a great breakup, right, Like he accused Sorby of embezzling money from that business, and I couldn't quite wrap my head around why he'd want to work with Sorbi again. So Sorbie must have something like to him that's as an appeal, right.

Yeah, I wish, you know, I could understand him a little more too, because one of the things that I couldn't work out is why Ray you know, wanted to continue to work with him. I mean the business breakup after that, the car business breakup wasn't necessarily a great breakup, right, Like he accused Sorby of embezzling money from that business, and I couldn't quite wrap my head around why he'd want to work with Sorbi again. So Sorbie must have something like to him that's as an appeal, right.

Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah, I guess so.

I mean they definitely saw the dollar signs and they created something that was unique at time.

I mean they definitely saw the dollar signs and they created something that was unique at time.

Well maybe unique is the wrong word.

Well maybe unique is the wrong word.

There were other, you know, things like this out there at the time, but they somehow were able to get theirs off the ground.

There were other, you know, things like this out there at the time, but they somehow were able to get theirs off the ground.

And I think.

And I think.

Ray saw that idea and saw the dollar signs and just you know, went with it. In spite of, you know what complications he may already have had with that relationship with Sorby. They continued in this business.

Ray saw that idea and saw the dollar signs and just you know, went with it. In spite of, you know what complications he may already have had with that relationship with Sorby. They continued in this business.

So they did identify a legitimate pain point in the crypto market, which was with that crypto at that point, you could be rich on paper, but it was hard to access your actual money. So explain some more what the product they were selling actually was. Were they creating a cryptocurrency or just creating this way to access your cryptocurrency.

So they did identify a legitimate pain point in the crypto market, which was with that crypto at that point, you could be rich on paper, but it was hard to access your actual money. So explain some more what the product they were selling actually was. Were they creating a cryptocurrency or just creating this way to access your cryptocurrency.

Yeah, they had their own coins, so they did an ico and they raised funds through that. They had CenTra tokens that they were selling, and then they also had the debit card, which was a way to spend your crypto, and you could spend not only centric coins, but you could spend all different versions of cryptocurrency on your card in real time, and you would worked kind of like a debit card where it would come out of an account and transfer it would convert from whatever cryptocurrency to US dollar and spend right at the grocery store. There were several companies doing it at the time, and they were in the process of making this card, making it or faking it or whatever you want to say. Like there's the question of whether it's fake or not as tricky because some versions of a prototype of this card were working. Were there lies and fraud along the way, Yes, but I do believe that they were actively working towards some sort of fully functioning card and company, even though there was fraud and lies along the way.

Yeah, they had their own coins, so they did an ico and they raised funds through that. They had CenTra tokens that they were selling, and then they also had the debit card, which was a way to spend your crypto, and you could spend not only centric coins, but you could spend all different versions of cryptocurrency on your card in real time, and you would worked kind of like a debit card where it would come out of an account and transfer it would convert from whatever cryptocurrency to US dollar and spend right at the grocery store. There were several companies doing it at the time, and they were in the process of making this card, making it or faking it or whatever you want to say. Like there's the question of whether it's fake or not as tricky because some versions of a prototype of this card were working. Were there lies and fraud along the way, Yes, but I do believe that they were actively working towards some sort of fully functioning card and company, even though there was fraud and lies along the way.

Not just fraud and lies. Right, actually confessed a crime to you on camera that when he had access to somebody's wallet, he just stole the money out of that guy. It's wait, that was shocking to me that, like he's just willing to just tell you on camera. Hey, yeah, this guy accidentally gave me his pass code, so I just you know, I saw the money there, and I just took it.

Not just fraud and lies. Right, actually confessed a crime to you on camera that when he had access to somebody's wallet, he just stole the money out of that guy. It's wait, that was shocking to me that, like he's just willing to just tell you on camera. Hey, yeah, this guy accidentally gave me his pass code, so I just you know, I saw the money there, and I just took it.

This is what I found fascinating about Ray is that he was so honest, even about the most horrible things. Most people you work with, criminals and such, are dodging around the truth and trying to, you know, backpedaling over their words and trying to, you know, not tell you everything. But Ray, I really believe he was, you know, let's say, ninety five percent honest with me. Like he he told me stuff that I would look at him and look at the camera guy next to me and say, like, does he know this camera's rolling like we're he knows he's saying this on record, right, because the things he would say would be so ridiculous, And I mean, I think part of that is his personality. I think another part of it is that when he cooperated with the with the government, he had to tell them everything he did wrong. And once he told them those things, they couldn't prosecute him form in the future. So I think things like that he probably told to them. If he didn't, he could potentially be prosecuted for it. But the way it was explained to me was that after he had shared all of those things, he could not be charged with them anymore, which made him able to be a bit more honest with us with everything.

This is what I found fascinating about Ray is that he was so honest, even about the most horrible things. Most people you work with, criminals and such, are dodging around the truth and trying to, you know, backpedaling over their words and trying to, you know, not tell you everything. But Ray, I really believe he was, you know, let's say, ninety five percent honest with me. Like he he told me stuff that I would look at him and look at the camera guy next to me and say, like, does he know this camera's rolling like we're he knows he's saying this on record, right, because the things he would say would be so ridiculous, And I mean, I think part of that is his personality. I think another part of it is that when he cooperated with the with the government, he had to tell them everything he did wrong. And once he told them those things, they couldn't prosecute him form in the future. So I think things like that he probably told to them. If he didn't, he could potentially be prosecuted for it. But the way it was explained to me was that after he had shared all of those things, he could not be charged with them anymore, which made him able to be a bit more honest with us with everything.

Yeah, it was pretty incredible. Can you remind me how Center convinced the world about the members of its c suite, like the veracity of their credentials and you know existence.

Yeah, it was pretty incredible. Can you remind me how Center convinced the world about the members of its c suite, like the veracity of their credentials and you know existence.

Yeah, I mean there was a lot of ways, but their fake staff was one of them, you know, that was their CEO.

Yeah, I mean there was a lot of ways, but their fake staff was one of them, you know, that was their CEO.

Was incredible.

Was incredible.

When we started working on this film and I heard about Michael Edwards, the fake CEO, that has to be a major plot point and I really want audiences to believe that Michael Edwards is real and then at some time flip it on them and realize that he's not. But the fact that they had you know staff there weren't even real people that supposedly worked at you know, Wells Fargo and like Bank of America and things and had this huge resume was incredible. And that led people, I think to know how much did they trust in them more because they had this fake CEO. I'm not sure, but it was a factor. When people were going to invest in a company and they see this guy, it leads them to believe that there's someone they can trust there. So we went after. You know, we knew we had to find the real Michael Edwards, and so that was like a big part of Upfront. I said, if I could land him an interview with him, that would be such a fun twist in the film.

When we started working on this film and I heard about Michael Edwards, the fake CEO, that has to be a major plot point and I really want audiences to believe that Michael Edwards is real and then at some time flip it on them and realize that he's not. But the fact that they had you know staff there weren't even real people that supposedly worked at you know, Wells Fargo and like Bank of America and things and had this huge resume was incredible. And that led people, I think to know how much did they trust in them more because they had this fake CEO. I'm not sure, but it was a factor. When people were going to invest in a company and they see this guy, it leads them to believe that there's someone they can trust there. So we went after. You know, we knew we had to find the real Michael Edwards, and so that was like a big part of Upfront. I said, if I could land him an interview with him, that would be such a fun twist in the film.

I'm Michael Edwards, founder and CEO of Center Tech.

I'm Michael Edwards, founder and CEO of Center Tech.

Is that who you really are? No, that's not who I really am. I'm doctor Andrew Hoileko. I'm a professor at the University of Manitoba.

Is that who you really are? No, that's not who I really am. I'm doctor Andrew Hoileko. I'm a professor at the University of Manitoba.

I was stoked when he agreed to do it.

I was stoked when he agreed to do it.

Were you surprised by how junior Varsity some of this scam actually was? Like, you know, I don't know how blockchain works, but I know how Google reverse image works. I know that. You know, just saying you went to Harvard on your LinkedIn does not erase your Instagram history that shows you having owned a car dealership and notw having gone to Harvard. I mean, it's jv right.

Were you surprised by how junior Varsity some of this scam actually was? Like, you know, I don't know how blockchain works, but I know how Google reverse image works. I know that. You know, just saying you went to Harvard on your LinkedIn does not erase your Instagram history that shows you having owned a car dealership and notw having gone to Harvard. I mean, it's jv right.

It is.

It is.

But what's even more fascinating is that people bought into it. So to me, the fact that they were getting away with these things that seemed so amateur was incredible to me. I think the you know, if they were just doing them and people weren't buying into them, that's one thing, but the fact that they kept kind of failing upwards, they would do something stupid and then raise more money. I mean, you get to the point in the film where you're like, certainly they're going down, and then that Korean company reaches out with more money, and I think that is what's incredible and also is kind of a sign of what was happening at the time with these types of things. In twenty seventeen, it was just the wild West of cryptocurrencies, and you had all sorts of people starting scammy companies and you know, milking people out of their money, and people weren't asking questions. They were just they could do no wrong, and they just assumed that their money.

But what's even more fascinating is that people bought into it. So to me, the fact that they were getting away with these things that seemed so amateur was incredible to me. I think the you know, if they were just doing them and people weren't buying into them, that's one thing, but the fact that they kept kind of failing upwards, they would do something stupid and then raise more money. I mean, you get to the point in the film where you're like, certainly they're going down, and then that Korean company reaches out with more money, and I think that is what's incredible and also is kind of a sign of what was happening at the time with these types of things. In twenty seventeen, it was just the wild West of cryptocurrencies, and you had all sorts of people starting scammy companies and you know, milking people out of their money, and people weren't asking questions. They were just they could do no wrong, and they just assumed that their money.

Would just go up, go up, go up.

Would just go up, go up, go up.

You know, there was not there was no one keeping anyone in check. And I think there was probably a lot worse scams that were going on at the time that people didn't get in trouble for.

You know, there was not there was no one keeping anyone in check. And I think there was probably a lot worse scams that were going on at the time that people didn't get in trouble for.

Yeah. I mean, it is worth noting that this was before these really high profile cases like one coin and Quadrigae SX or FTX, and few people knew a lot about crypto let alone that most of these outfits were scammy, right, Like consumers just were not aware of that at that time.

Yeah. I mean, it is worth noting that this was before these really high profile cases like one coin and Quadrigae SX or FTX, and few people knew a lot about crypto let alone that most of these outfits were scammy, right, Like consumers just were not aware of that at that time.

Absolutely, I mean they you know, some people had made some money in ethereum and a lot of people were putting that into other coins. But yeah, there wasn't general knowledge of what types of people were in this industry and how scammy they were. I think Nathaniel Popper, who wrote a great article for The New York Times about Center Tech, he was looking at the time. He had kind of become the de facto reporter at the Times for anything crypto, and he knew there was all sorts of scams going on and was trying to find something to write about. But there was too many stories. It's like, where do you even start. These things are everywhere, And somehow he stumbled across CenTra.

Absolutely, I mean they you know, some people had made some money in ethereum and a lot of people were putting that into other coins. But yeah, there wasn't general knowledge of what types of people were in this industry and how scammy they were. I think Nathaniel Popper, who wrote a great article for The New York Times about Center Tech, he was looking at the time. He had kind of become the de facto reporter at the Times for anything crypto, and he knew there was all sorts of scams going on and was trying to find something to write about. But there was too many stories. It's like, where do you even start. These things are everywhere, And somehow he stumbled across CenTra.

He looked at them and said, they have a little bit of everything.

He looked at them and said, they have a little bit of everything.

They've got the celebrities, they've got the fake you know, CEOs, they've got all sorts of things. They raised a good amount of money, and they kind of summed up everything that was wrong in the crypto world at that time.

They've got the celebrities, they've got the fake you know, CEOs, they've got all sorts of things. They raised a good amount of money, and they kind of summed up everything that was wrong in the crypto world at that time.

In a sense, CenTra was the story of crypto itself, which is an endeavor that has something real underneath it, but keeps failing and keeps running into problems, and yet people keep coming back to it. There's something so alluring there.

In a sense, CenTra was the story of crypto itself, which is an endeavor that has something real underneath it, but keeps failing and keeps running into problems, and yet people keep coming back to it. There's something so alluring there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think the SEC went on to prosecute This did become the first case that the SEC prosecuted in the cryptocurrency space, and I think that was also because of this New York Times article and because they had been given some light there.

I think the SEC went on to prosecute This did become the first case that the SEC prosecuted in the cryptocurrency space, and I think that was also because of this New York Times article and because they had been given some light there.

What I thought was interesting about Nathaniel Popper was he was talking about how you know, belittled his beat was at the New York Times at the time. Can you talk about how important he was to your film, like having him in your film.

What I thought was interesting about Nathaniel Popper was he was talking about how you know, belittled his beat was at the New York Times at the time. Can you talk about how important he was to your film, like having him in your film.

Yeah, he's incredible because I think you want somebody that's gonna kind of help take down the bad guy, if you will. I don't like to say that there's good or bad guys in films, but that would be his role here, the good guy investigating and trying to solve the crime. He had done an incredible amount of research. We reached out to him fairly early on, and we were able to do an interview with him and get a lot of information from him that was helpful in all of other interviews after that and the crafting the film and yeah, he was a huge help.

Yeah, he's incredible because I think you want somebody that's gonna kind of help take down the bad guy, if you will. I don't like to say that there's good or bad guys in films, but that would be his role here, the good guy investigating and trying to solve the crime. He had done an incredible amount of research. We reached out to him fairly early on, and we were able to do an interview with him and get a lot of information from him that was helpful in all of other interviews after that and the crafting the film and yeah, he was a huge help.

So it seems like no one was more surprised than Nathaniel that Sorby continued to talk to him when it was clear this whole thing was a house of cards, right.

So it seems like no one was more surprised than Nathaniel that Sorby continued to talk to him when it was clear this whole thing was a house of cards, right.

Yeah, yeah, I think he says that in the film, like he very much thought at some point they would shut up, but they just kept answering his calls.

Yeah, yeah, I think he says that in the film, like he very much thought at some point they would shut up, but they just kept answering his calls.

The first thing is Visa has said nobody has applied to issue a central card.

The first thing is Visa has said nobody has applied to issue a central card.

I mean, I know, I know detailed about that.

I mean, I know, I know detailed about that.

I mean, you know, I mean, but I mean, I can't give you direct.

I mean, you know, I mean, but I mean, I can't give you direct.

Bank on that.

Bank on that.

We have calls with Ray in the film. He talked with Ray, you know, a decent amount, but he talked with with Sorby much more. And those conversations, you know, aren't in the film, but they're even more fascinating. And just the you know, just the cover ups. As they start getting down the road and he's asking him more and more questions, he kind of just catches them over and over again. And much like the interview they did with Cliff High, which in the film seems to go incredibly wrong. After that interview with Cliff High, they raised even more money, Like things kept going even better because of that attention. It's funny to see that, even with the warning signs, that people were still buying into these things.

We have calls with Ray in the film. He talked with Ray, you know, a decent amount, but he talked with with Sorby much more. And those conversations, you know, aren't in the film, but they're even more fascinating. And just the you know, just the cover ups. As they start getting down the road and he's asking him more and more questions, he kind of just catches them over and over again. And much like the interview they did with Cliff High, which in the film seems to go incredibly wrong. After that interview with Cliff High, they raised even more money, Like things kept going even better because of that attention. It's funny to see that, even with the warning signs, that people were still buying into these things.

It's interesting because agreeing to do a profile with the New York Times seems like a terrible idea if you're knowingly running a scam, right, So my question is, did they sort of think they were doing something legit at that point or did they just not understand like what journalism is and they thought they were just going to be able to fleece this New York Times reporter. That was the big question I had about it.

It's interesting because agreeing to do a profile with the New York Times seems like a terrible idea if you're knowingly running a scam, right, So my question is, did they sort of think they were doing something legit at that point or did they just not understand like what journalism is and they thought they were just going to be able to fleece this New York Times reporter. That was the big question I had about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think if you ask Ray he would say, no, we knew it was a scam the whole time. If you ask Robert Farkas, who is one of the three co founders, he would say, yes, we were legitimate. I believe it, and I still believe in it today. It might be mixed, but either way, they all thought, for whatever reason, that this was a great idea to do a profile in the New York Times, and they were excited about it. I mean, you see the pictures. They did a huge photo shoot in these in these suits. The New York Times photographer and they, you know, were all thrilled that they were going to get this press because it meant good things for their you know, for their company, and in some cases it might have been I mean, most of the you know, attention they were getting, even when it was negative, was again turning around into something where they raised more money. So there's a chance that you know, this New York Times thing, even if it was negative, could have been good for them if the SEC hadn't read that article and came after them.

I think if you ask Ray he would say, no, we knew it was a scam the whole time. If you ask Robert Farkas, who is one of the three co founders, he would say, yes, we were legitimate. I believe it, and I still believe in it today. It might be mixed, but either way, they all thought, for whatever reason, that this was a great idea to do a profile in the New York Times, and they were excited about it. I mean, you see the pictures. They did a huge photo shoot in these in these suits. The New York Times photographer and they, you know, were all thrilled that they were going to get this press because it meant good things for their you know, for their company, and in some cases it might have been I mean, most of the you know, attention they were getting, even when it was negative, was again turning around into something where they raised more money. So there's a chance that you know, this New York Times thing, even if it was negative, could have been good for them if the SEC hadn't read that article and came after them.

Yeah, Unfortunately, people at the SEC do tend to read The New York Times. Yes, it was interesting to me, you know, Nathaniel decided to send the photographer there quickly before they figure me out that I'm a real journalist, which apparently they weren't going to do anyway. But there were actual employees there, and I found myself wondering, did they really hire employees who went to the office thinking that this was a legit, non scammy company, Like did they have infrastructure employees like payroll people.

Yeah, Unfortunately, people at the SEC do tend to read The New York Times. Yes, it was interesting to me, you know, Nathaniel decided to send the photographer there quickly before they figure me out that I'm a real journalist, which apparently they weren't going to do anyway. But there were actual employees there, and I found myself wondering, did they really hire employees who went to the office thinking that this was a legit, non scammy company, Like did they have infrastructure employees like payroll people.

I'm pretty sure that yeah.

I'm pretty sure that yeah.

Yeah. My guess is that most of the people there, you know, assumed they were working for a legitimate company and it was a normal job.

Yeah. My guess is that most of the people there, you know, assumed they were working for a legitimate company and it was a normal job.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't think there were too many people there that went to work thinking or were scamming people.

I don't think there were too many people there that went to work thinking or were scamming people.

Right, So you mentioned cliff High a minute ago. It seems like CenTra made a lot of money also thanks to a typo that cliff I made. Yeah, can you just remind us who Cliffy is and what was that mistake that he made in his blog.

Right, So you mentioned cliff High a minute ago. It seems like CenTra made a lot of money also thanks to a typo that cliff I made. Yeah, can you just remind us who Cliffy is and what was that mistake that he made in his blog.

He's a crypto guru blogger and he found this this company, you know, using these web bots, as we call him. He found a company called CenTra, and it was the wrong center. It was some sort of bank that he had that he had thought that this bank was partnering in a crypto venture and that was something he was thrilled about, and he wrote along report about and turns out his web bot had.

He's a crypto guru blogger and he found this this company, you know, using these web bots, as we call him. He found a company called CenTra, and it was the wrong center. It was some sort of bank that he had that he had thought that this bank was partnering in a crypto venture and that was something he was thrilled about, and he wrote along report about and turns out his web bot had.

Discovered the wrong CenTra.

Discovered the wrong CenTra.

So he quickly retracted that, but it was kind of too late because that was the you know, that was the start of them raising thirty five million dollars was because of this mistake and because of his endorsement, because he was that powerful in that in that world.

So he quickly retracted that, but it was kind of too late because that was the you know, that was the start of them raising thirty five million dollars was because of this mistake and because of his endorsement, because he was that powerful in that in that world.

It also seems like maybe they didn't do a great name search when they named their scamming company. It's like some brand confusion.

It also seems like maybe they didn't do a great name search when they named their scamming company. It's like some brand confusion.

That would be a good scam would to be to get your company to sound like anything you can and copy the logos.

That would be a good scam would to be to get your company to sound like anything you can and copy the logos.

So well, or copy a whole website and then just find in the place right exactly. So Cliff tries to atone by exposing CenTra for the benefit of the crypto community, and Sorby decides to do an interview with Cliff.

So well, or copy a whole website and then just find in the place right exactly. So Cliff tries to atone by exposing CenTra for the benefit of the crypto community, and Sorby decides to do an interview with Cliff.

The first thing Sorby says in that cause we are one not a scam. Starting off by saying this is not a skim is the most bizarre thing in the world. No one ever says that unless it's actually a scam.

The first thing Sorby says in that cause we are one not a scam. Starting off by saying this is not a skim is the most bizarre thing in the world. No one ever says that unless it's actually a scam.

No, that's that's fine, that's mine. But your statement, your statements don't mean anything. You stating you're not a scam in no way proves you're not a scam.

No, that's that's fine, that's mine. But your statement, your statements don't mean anything. You stating you're not a scam in no way proves you're not a scam.

He doesn't do himself any favors in that interview, right.

He doesn't do himself any favors in that interview, right.

No, No, it does not go well. It's painful to watch, especially in its entirety. It's a very painful interview.

No, No, it does not go well. It's painful to watch, especially in its entirety. It's a very painful interview.

So the heat's rising now and Ray and Sorby and Robert hire a lawyer to deal with the legal threat. So talk about this guy who is Eric Pope.

So the heat's rising now and Ray and Sorby and Robert hire a lawyer to deal with the legal threat. So talk about this guy who is Eric Pope.

Oh.

Oh.

Eric Pope is an incredible lawyer based out of New York, huge resume, He's got a great website. Eric Pope is one of my favorite things about this because they really really believed that Eric Pope was helping them and that he was a very skilled and credentialed lawyer. And they sent all of their stuff to Eric Pope. When they got in trouble with the sec they sent it to him. When they had other questions, they went to him. He helped them with all of their paperwork, and they did not find out until much later that he was a college kid pretending to be a lawyer.

Eric Pope is an incredible lawyer based out of New York, huge resume, He's got a great website. Eric Pope is one of my favorite things about this because they really really believed that Eric Pope was helping them and that he was a very skilled and credentialed lawyer. And they sent all of their stuff to Eric Pope. When they got in trouble with the sec they sent it to him. When they had other questions, they went to him. He helped them with all of their paperwork, and they did not find out until much later that he was a college kid pretending to be a lawyer.

It was like this young kid, fucking maniac, and my partner thought it was a legit lawyer the whole time he was talking to him, and he basically like scammed a company that was already scamming us, which was.

It was like this young kid, fucking maniac, and my partner thought it was a legit lawyer the whole time he was talking to him, and he basically like scammed a company that was already scamming us, which was.

Yeah, crazy. He did get busted for that.

Yeah, crazy. He did get busted for that.

I think he only made I don't have it in front of you, somewhere around forty thousand dollars being a fake lawyer for three years. And he also had a partner, so it wasn't it wasn't incredibly lucrative for him, but because of CenTra and I think the attention it got. I did hear that the CenTra executives cooperated with the government to help put Eric Pope away.

I think he only made I don't have it in front of you, somewhere around forty thousand dollars being a fake lawyer for three years. And he also had a partner, so it wasn't it wasn't incredibly lucrative for him, but because of CenTra and I think the attention it got. I did hear that the CenTra executives cooperated with the government to help put Eric Pope away.

Right, because they all have loyalty tattoos.

Right, because they all have loyalty tattoos.

Right, Yes, exactly, exactly.

Right, Yes, exactly, exactly.

But it's one of my favorite parts, especially when he's talking to the suit guys and they're so shocked to you know, basically like they got scammed by the scammer got scammed by another scam.

But it's one of my favorite parts, especially when he's talking to the suit guys and they're so shocked to you know, basically like they got scammed by the scammer got scammed by another scam.

It's incredible. It's karma.

It's incredible. It's karma.

Well that's the thing. Is it karma or are they somehow And this is what I found myself wondering, are they somehow more susceptible to somebody like Eric Pope because this is how they operate. It's almost like they are scam blind. That's that's why I found myself wondering.

Well that's the thing. Is it karma or are they somehow And this is what I found myself wondering, are they somehow more susceptible to somebody like Eric Pope because this is how they operate. It's almost like they are scam blind. That's that's why I found myself wondering.

Maybe, I mean, they got tricked by their own scam. I mean, especially the website. Just believing something off a web site is pretty funny. I mean, I just I find it really entertaining. And I think that he the fact that this kid, you know, fooled them. I don't know, I don't know if it's karma or what, but I just it's a big laugh for me. I love it, like it's so great.

Maybe, I mean, they got tricked by their own scam. I mean, especially the website. Just believing something off a web site is pretty funny. I mean, I just I find it really entertaining. And I think that he the fact that this kid, you know, fooled them. I don't know, I don't know if it's karma or what, but I just it's a big laugh for me. I love it, like it's so great.

Yeah, I think the key to being a fake lawyer is to go into a field of fake law where other people don't know anything about what it is you're doing. So the fact that they didn't know what they were actually doing probably really helped this kid out a lot.

Yeah, I think the key to being a fake lawyer is to go into a field of fake law where other people don't know anything about what it is you're doing. So the fact that they didn't know what they were actually doing probably really helped this kid out a lot.

Exactly.

Exactly.

You just got to be confident and you know, and that's it, that's all. It takes big words and confidence.

You just got to be confident and you know, and that's it, that's all. It takes big words and confidence.

Eventually they do need real lawyers though, because the FBI finally does you know, go into CenTra. When you begin interviewing Ray, he hadn't yet been sentenced. The guy with a loyalty tattoo again cooperates with authorities to convict his co defendants, and instead of getting decades in prison, he was sentenced to time served and released no time. Bitch, Oh she loved you.

Eventually they do need real lawyers though, because the FBI finally does you know, go into CenTra. When you begin interviewing Ray, he hadn't yet been sentenced. The guy with a loyalty tattoo again cooperates with authorities to convict his co defendants, and instead of getting decades in prison, he was sentenced to time served and released no time. Bitch, Oh she loved you.

Comparing it to Sorbies was like night and day.

Comparing it to Sorbies was like night and day.

Facing one hundred and seventy five years.

Facing one hundred and seventy five years.

Did you think that was what was going to happen?

Did you think that was what was going to happen?

Honestly? Like, no, not. At first.

Honestly? Like, no, not. At first.

When we started this, his sentencing was probably a few weeks or a month in advance, and we were rushing to go film with Ray before.

When we started this, his sentencing was probably a few weeks or a month in advance, and we were rushing to go film with Ray before.

He got locked up.

He got locked up.

We were worried that if he went to prison, then there's you know, we're trying to make this movie that's going to be a little difficult, So the sentencing kept getting pushed over a year I think. I mean, we waited for quite a while for the sentencing, and as we got farther down the road and talked to more lawyers and people involved in the in the story, I think I started to think that he probably would would get off. But there was still a question even on that day of whether, you know, how strict the penalty would be. I mean, there was definitely on paper a chance that he could get one hundred years or something. But I think just knowing, you know, talking to the other lawyers in the case, it seemed like he was probably gonna get off with very little time, maybe a year at the most, and then ultimately, as you see in the film, he gets no time.

We were worried that if he went to prison, then there's you know, we're trying to make this movie that's going to be a little difficult, So the sentencing kept getting pushed over a year I think. I mean, we waited for quite a while for the sentencing, and as we got farther down the road and talked to more lawyers and people involved in the in the story, I think I started to think that he probably would would get off. But there was still a question even on that day of whether, you know, how strict the penalty would be. I mean, there was definitely on paper a chance that he could get one hundred years or something. But I think just knowing, you know, talking to the other lawyers in the case, it seemed like he was probably gonna get off with very little time, maybe a year at the most, and then ultimately, as you see in the film, he gets no time.

M m.

M m.

The true measure of whether or not that was a fair outcome perhaps came from investor Jacob Brunsel. How did it feel to be the one to deliver the news to Jacob that Ray got time served for stealing his money?

The true measure of whether or not that was a fair outcome perhaps came from investor Jacob Brunsel. How did it feel to be the one to deliver the news to Jacob that Ray got time served for stealing his money?

Yeah, I uh, I mean felt kind of bad because obviously Jacob would like to see him spend some time in prison.

Yeah, I uh, I mean felt kind of bad because obviously Jacob would like to see him spend some time in prison.

That upsets me. That upsets me kind of well, I'm gonna got him.

That upsets me. That upsets me kind of well, I'm gonna got him.

Oh oh man, do you think he's really changed?

Oh oh man, do you think he's really changed?

I hope so, but that doesn't absolve him from what he's done in this past.

I hope so, but that doesn't absolve him from what he's done in this past.

It was also a good moment that he could capture on camera, so I'm glad he hadn't heard that news anywhere else yet. But yeah, it is shocking at the surface. I think Paul Percucci, who is Robert Farcas's lawyer, talks about it and talked about it more than is in the film. But that's just the way the government works in New York is if you cooperate, you get no time. Personally, I think there should be some middle ground. I mean, give some sort of benefit for cooperating, but don't let them get off completely either. Yeah, but it seems like it's all or nothing. According to him.

It was also a good moment that he could capture on camera, so I'm glad he hadn't heard that news anywhere else yet. But yeah, it is shocking at the surface. I think Paul Percucci, who is Robert Farcas's lawyer, talks about it and talked about it more than is in the film. But that's just the way the government works in New York is if you cooperate, you get no time. Personally, I think there should be some middle ground. I mean, give some sort of benefit for cooperating, but don't let them get off completely either. Yeah, but it seems like it's all or nothing. According to him.

Robert Farcas's attorney might be biased, but he said of the three principal players, that Ray was the most likely to reoffend, and he said it in a pretty colorful way.

Robert Farcas's attorney might be biased, but he said of the three principal players, that Ray was the most likely to reoffend, and he said it in a pretty colorful way.

Good shocking to me.

Good shocking to me.

With his record and as much of a scumback as he admits he is, that he winds up with literally the lowest sentence in this case.

With his record and as much of a scumback as he admits he is, that he winds up with literally the lowest sentence in this case.

Do you agree this might be the case.

Do you agree this might be the case.

I don't have a comment on that. I would say, he says that. I'd say, Samson ends are the you know, the prosecutor. He says, sam is you know, the one that would be most likely to reoffend and sees that because of his criminal habits. Basically is what he would say, is that over the over the years, if you look at these things, I think they both agree that Robert Farcas would be the least likely to reoffend and kind of was just caught up in all this you know, wrong place, wrong time, and.

I don't have a comment on that. I would say, he says that. I'd say, Samson ends are the you know, the prosecutor. He says, sam is you know, the one that would be most likely to reoffend and sees that because of his criminal habits. Basically is what he would say, is that over the over the years, if you look at these things, I think they both agree that Robert Farcas would be the least likely to reoffend and kind of was just caught up in all this you know, wrong place, wrong time, and.

Bought into it because I think he believed in the company.

Bought into it because I think he believed in the company.

He took a job, right, He just took a job.

He took a job, right, He just took a job.

He was exactly exactly and I don't know how much he knew of things that were illegal that were going on or not, but he he did believe in it. And I think probably I feel the most sorry for him because he wasn't the one leading the charge but still got roped into all of this.

He was exactly exactly and I don't know how much he knew of things that were illegal that were going on or not, but he he did believe in it. And I think probably I feel the most sorry for him because he wasn't the one leading the charge but still got roped into all of this.

Yeah, although he never asked the question why am I being made CFO of a company?

Yeah, although he never asked the question why am I being made CFO of a company?

When I true?

When I true?

I mean that's exciting though, Yeah, you get you get that. I mean, I'm down, what's that? What's the salary?

I mean that's exciting though, Yeah, you get you get that. I mean, I'm down, what's that? What's the salary?

Let's go.

Let's go.

You make the choice to include this several times that you asked Ray and his family about his current finances, including buying a house in particular, and whether he still maybe has any of this stolen money, and you included there somewhat evasive and somewhat differing answers. Can you talk about your decision to include these conversations in the film.

You make the choice to include this several times that you asked Ray and his family about his current finances, including buying a house in particular, and whether he still maybe has any of this stolen money, and you included there somewhat evasive and somewhat differing answers. Can you talk about your decision to include these conversations in the film.

Yes, I think as a filmmaker, I want to know what the viewer is asking, and I think everybody's going to be asking where's the money?

Yes, I think as a filmmaker, I want to know what the viewer is asking, and I think everybody's going to be asking where's the money?

Like does he still have money?

Like does he still have money?

And I asked him multiple times throughout this production, and there always was a bit of a playfulness or denial. It wasn't the same honesty that I had in other conversations with him.

And I asked him multiple times throughout this production, and there always was a bit of a playfulness or denial. It wasn't the same honesty that I had in other conversations with him.

You're buying a house, yeah, How you mine a house? Money answers?

You're buying a house, yeah, How you mine a house? Money answers?

How it goes?

How it goes?

Yeah?

Yeah?

How you have money to take for the house. How's he buying a house?

How you have money to take for the house. How's he buying a house?

Ray?

Ray?

As Kim, I don't know.

As Kim, I don't know.

So those moments at the end of the film are a little more raw than other moments, and I think feel a little bit more real.

So those moments at the end of the film are a little more raw than other moments, and I think feel a little bit more real.

But they were important for me.

But they were important for me.

To include, because I'd been asking that question the whole time and I don't have an answer. But I think that there's something there, Like whether he has two hundred dollars or two million dollars, there's potential that there's some additional money, is my guess.

To include, because I'd been asking that question the whole time and I don't have an answer. But I think that there's something there, Like whether he has two hundred dollars or two million dollars, there's potential that there's some additional money, is my guess.

Yeah. Now, you producer directed some great documentaries like The Legend of Cocaine Island and The Pez Outlaw, and what those have in common are quirky people who get into trouble because they dream really big and maybe a little naive of the law. But Ray says from the beginning that he always wanted to be a criminal. He knew the system and that he was hurting people, and now he is buying houses and making loans to financially disadvantaged people at fifty percent interest. He says this is going to be his new business venture. They say, when people show you who they are, believe them. So what am I supposed to believe about who Ray Trapani is.

Yeah. Now, you producer directed some great documentaries like The Legend of Cocaine Island and The Pez Outlaw, and what those have in common are quirky people who get into trouble because they dream really big and maybe a little naive of the law. But Ray says from the beginning that he always wanted to be a criminal. He knew the system and that he was hurting people, and now he is buying houses and making loans to financially disadvantaged people at fifty percent interest. He says this is going to be his new business venture. They say, when people show you who they are, believe them. So what am I supposed to believe about who Ray Trapani is.

I think you can believe what he tells you.

I think you can believe what he tells you.

I think I think you shouldn't trust him as far as I would never give him money or enter a business venture with him. I think Ray's probably loyal to the closest people around him, but then he has other priorities when it comes to everything else, mainly money. I think what you believe about Ray Ray is complicated. Like he's he's fascinating, he's so I've never met someone who was so willing to talk about their dark side in such an open way. There's so much stuff that didn't make it in the film. There's so many adventures and things that you know, I would never want my kids to hear.

I think I think you shouldn't trust him as far as I would never give him money or enter a business venture with him. I think Ray's probably loyal to the closest people around him, but then he has other priorities when it comes to everything else, mainly money. I think what you believe about Ray Ray is complicated. Like he's he's fascinating, he's so I've never met someone who was so willing to talk about their dark side in such an open way. There's so much stuff that didn't make it in the film. There's so many adventures and things that you know, I would never want my kids to hear.

But is there anything you can tell us about that while we're talking?

But is there anything you can tell us about that while we're talking?

I mean, Ray, what can I tell you about? What can I tell you about? He had so many stories though, and it just it just I mean one of the first things Ray told me was his favorite movie is Wolf of Wall Street. And he really looks up to and respects Jordan Belfort. He said when he went into CenTra, he looked at Jordan Belford and said, I want to model my company after him. Like, I think that says a lot about someone. I don't know. There's probably a deeper dive that a therapist could do, but that, to me says everything.

I mean, Ray, what can I tell you about? What can I tell you about? He had so many stories though, and it just it just I mean one of the first things Ray told me was his favorite movie is Wolf of Wall Street. And he really looks up to and respects Jordan Belfort. He said when he went into CenTra, he looked at Jordan Belford and said, I want to model my company after him. Like, I think that says a lot about someone. I don't know. There's probably a deeper dive that a therapist could do, but that, to me says everything.

Yeah, Well, we see that he's fallen in love, gotten married, now has a baby. Is he an open book with his wife is now wife too, and does it seem like he's an open book with her and in those close relationships, I.

Yeah, Well, we see that he's fallen in love, gotten married, now has a baby. Is he an open book with his wife is now wife too, and does it seem like he's an open book with her and in those close relationships, I.

Mean he's he's an open book with his wife. After she sees this movie, I guess I think, you know, I think she's aware of all of this. I mean, she knew when she started dating him, she knew the basic details. He was wearing a braslet when she met him, and had a curfew so they would have to rush home in time back to his grandmother's house every night by twelve or something, and like barely make curfew. But I think he's open with them. I mean, how much will he tell his kids they're young. I'm I'm not sure, but it's something that I don't feel like anyone around him hasn't heard these stories. His best friend, Johnny, who's in the movie, is like probably you know, loves him and hates him, like he knows how messed up he is in so many ways, and somehow they're still best friends.

Mean he's he's an open book with his wife. After she sees this movie, I guess I think, you know, I think she's aware of all of this. I mean, she knew when she started dating him, she knew the basic details. He was wearing a braslet when she met him, and had a curfew so they would have to rush home in time back to his grandmother's house every night by twelve or something, and like barely make curfew. But I think he's open with them. I mean, how much will he tell his kids they're young. I'm I'm not sure, but it's something that I don't feel like anyone around him hasn't heard these stories. His best friend, Johnny, who's in the movie, is like probably you know, loves him and hates him, like he knows how messed up he is in so many ways, and somehow they're still best friends.

That says a lot.

That says a lot.

And I find ready to be frustratingly likable because you don't want to like him. And I think you get to the end of the film too, and that is what's interesting is he's complicated in that way, like you're saying, this guy is horrible. He's doing horrible things, but I kind of like him, like why, And I think that hopefully points the fingerback at the audience and makes them ask a few questions too.

And I find ready to be frustratingly likable because you don't want to like him. And I think you get to the end of the film too, and that is what's interesting is he's complicated in that way, like you're saying, this guy is horrible. He's doing horrible things, but I kind of like him, like why, And I think that hopefully points the fingerback at the audience and makes them ask a few questions too.

Well along those lines, Ray's mom did say that if you make Ray look like a scumbag, You're going to be in big trouble.

Well along those lines, Ray's mom did say that if you make Ray look like a scumbag, You're going to be in big trouble.

I said it from the very beginning.

I said it from the very beginning.

I mean, if you make them look like a scumbag, I'm really going to be pissed, because I swear to God, you'll be in big trouble.

I mean, if you make them look like a scumbag, I'm really going to be pissed, because I swear to God, you'll be in big trouble.

I'm not kidding.

I'm not kidding.

So I have to ask are you looking over your shoulder a little bit? For Ray's mom right now?

So I have to ask are you looking over your shoulder a little bit? For Ray's mom right now?

Well, the big question is does Ray look like a scumbig? Do you think Ray looks like a scumbag?

Well, the big question is does Ray look like a scumbig? Do you think Ray looks like a scumbag?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I kind of feel like you do.