Hi, I'm Mateka and I'm Courtney, and we're too queer First Nations women passionate about representation for our community. We created this podcast to share our stories. We want you to join us on the journey.

Hi, I'm Mateka and I'm Courtney, and we're too queer First Nations women passionate about representation for our community. We created this podcast to share our stories. We want you to join us on the journey.

You're listening to Coming Out Black. Welcome back to Coming Out Black. Today's episode.

You're listening to Coming Out Black. Welcome back to Coming Out Black. Today's episode.

We are very lucky to be joined by the incredible Nate Woodle. He is my cousin and the best person I know. Nathan, Welcome, Thanks for having me so much. I'm excited to be doing this with you.

We are very lucky to be joined by the incredible Nate Woodle. He is my cousin and the best person I know. Nathan, Welcome, Thanks for having me so much. I'm excited to be doing this with you.

It's great to have you.

It's great to have you.

And this is a bit weird actually to record an episode with someone you know pretty much your whole life, Like I've known you since you were in diapers and probably the same for you. And you know how much of a dork that I am so trying to do cool stuff while you knowing secretly that I'm not this cool. It's kind of funny. But thank you again so much for coming on. I mean, it's very much mutual. You know, we've seen both the most critical moments.

And this is a bit weird actually to record an episode with someone you know pretty much your whole life, Like I've known you since you were in diapers and probably the same for you. And you know how much of a dork that I am so trying to do cool stuff while you knowing secretly that I'm not this cool. It's kind of funny. But thank you again so much for coming on. I mean, it's very much mutual. You know, we've seen both the most critical moments.

Of each other, so you know there's no judgement here completely say spacespletally.

Of each other, so you know there's no judgement here completely say spacespletally.

Now that I think about it, it stems back to those performances. Our mothers and aunties and grandparents make us put on. Like someone asked me before why I am so comfortable doing public speaking, And I think it's because I lost my dignity at about like seven, when we were performing, you know, the Spice girls in front of all of our very distant relatives, you know. But I do know the dance of my heart, and I do recall at that same event, Nate, I don't remember if you did a performance, but you were performing.

Now that I think about it, it stems back to those performances. Our mothers and aunties and grandparents make us put on. Like someone asked me before why I am so comfortable doing public speaking, And I think it's because I lost my dignity at about like seven, when we were performing, you know, the Spice girls in front of all of our very distant relatives, you know. But I do know the dance of my heart, and I do recall at that same event, Nate, I don't remember if you did a performance, but you were performing.

I did, yeah, in a wig, I believe, which was my first taste of drag, but definitely not my last. But yeah, I think that like voluntary public humiliation kind of I guess planted a seed in both of us to put ourselves out in public more often than embarrass ourselves.

I did, yeah, in a wig, I believe, which was my first taste of drag, but definitely not my last. But yeah, I think that like voluntary public humiliation kind of I guess planted a seed in both of us to put ourselves out in public more often than embarrass ourselves.

I think maybe it's like the false sense of like security in a way that like people will applaud us, maybe just because we're just used to that, like having our family just like, wow, that's amazing.

I think maybe it's like the false sense of like security in a way that like people will applaud us, maybe just because we're just used to that, like having our family just like, wow, that's amazing.

Get up. Definitely.

Get up. Definitely.

I mean, our aunties and uncles were definitely eating it up, been sharing us on. But I didn't think the broader public would have thought that our performances.

I mean, our aunties and uncles were definitely eating it up, been sharing us on. But I didn't think the broader public would have thought that our performances.

Well, what if they think about us, you know.

Well, what if they think about us, you know.

Yeah, so Nate, tell us your story. Who are you, who's your mob? Where are you from?

Yeah, so Nate, tell us your story. Who are you, who's your mob? Where are you from?

Yeah?

Yeah?

So, well my mom is your mom, Gubby Gubby Butler. But I was born and raised in Rockhampton on the Rumble Country before moving to Brisbane for university and then I lived there for about six or seven years and finally here in Melbourne.

So, well my mom is your mom, Gubby Gubby Butler. But I was born and raised in Rockhampton on the Rumble Country before moving to Brisbane for university and then I lived there for about six or seven years and finally here in Melbourne.

As a journalist. And yeah, that's the short and long of it, I guess.

As a journalist. And yeah, that's the short and long of it, I guess.

And coming from the Rutnas Tutna's town in the country, what was it like growing up in Rockhampton? And I also don't think I asked you before, but how do you identify as part.

And coming from the Rutnas Tutna's town in the country, what was it like growing up in Rockhampton? And I also don't think I asked you before, but how do you identify as part.

Of the community. Well, yeah, I don't know.

Of the community. Well, yeah, I don't know.

I think people have a lot of preconceptions about regional Queensland being a trench for Queer people, and it very much was, you know. At it's difficult to fully express myself as I wanted to, but I think I was very fortunate in that I had a safety net being my family, who were, you know, ready to accept me however I wanted to present myself. And then I also just had a fortunate upbringing in the sense that I had a good friendship group. But yeah, it was definitely navigating both my sexuality and my identity as an Indigenous person in a town that was not, you know, Rockampton, I think voted twenty percent yes in the referendum for perspective, so that it's kind of like, I don't think it is necessarily a safe space, but at the same time, I think, I, yeah, I was just blessed to have a good support network around me.

I think people have a lot of preconceptions about regional Queensland being a trench for Queer people, and it very much was, you know. At it's difficult to fully express myself as I wanted to, but I think I was very fortunate in that I had a safety net being my family, who were, you know, ready to accept me however I wanted to present myself. And then I also just had a fortunate upbringing in the sense that I had a good friendship group. But yeah, it was definitely navigating both my sexuality and my identity as an Indigenous person in a town that was not, you know, Rockampton, I think voted twenty percent yes in the referendum for perspective, so that it's kind of like, I don't think it is necessarily a safe space, but at the same time, I think, I, yeah, I was just blessed to have a good support network around me.

Yeah, I don't know if that answered your question.

Yeah, I don't know if that answered your question.

And I guess like it would be tough to probably hear those results given that you did feel there was some safety. Do you feel like that result has impacted the way that you think about home?

And I guess like it would be tough to probably hear those results given that you did feel there was some safety. Do you feel like that result has impacted the way that you think about home?

Absolutely?

Absolutely?

I mean, you know, like I said, I was born and raised there, so for the large majority of my life so far, I was surrounded by people who I just kind of knew and loved and expected that love and appreciation and respect to be reciprocated. But that result kind of told me, well, maybe a lot of the people that you know, I respected and looked up to, maybe they didn't actually reciprocate that respect after all. And it was very it was a very grounding moment, and I think the whole nation kind of felt that, I know, definitely, like a lot of our mob felt that, especially the mob who were expecting a yes outcome, But it was kind of a slap in the face.

I mean, you know, like I said, I was born and raised there, so for the large majority of my life so far, I was surrounded by people who I just kind of knew and loved and expected that love and appreciation and respect to be reciprocated. But that result kind of told me, well, maybe a lot of the people that you know, I respected and looked up to, maybe they didn't actually reciprocate that respect after all. And it was very it was a very grounding moment, and I think the whole nation kind of felt that, I know, definitely, like a lot of our mob felt that, especially the mob who were expecting a yes outcome, But it was kind of a slap in the face.

I mean, I know a lot.

I mean, I know a lot.

Of our mob weren't surprised, and maybe I should have kind of expected that result from a place that is, you know, so far removed from you know, the capital cities or the places where the yes outcome was the majority, but it was still. Yeah, I don't know, it was definitely humbling, I think definitely, or maybe not humbling, but but you know what I mean, it was grounding.

Of our mob weren't surprised, and maybe I should have kind of expected that result from a place that is, you know, so far removed from you know, the capital cities or the places where the yes outcome was the majority, but it was still. Yeah, I don't know, it was definitely humbling, I think definitely, or maybe not humbling, but but you know what I mean, it was grounding.

It was yeah, sort more like a reality check in a way, like it's very easy to feel safe in your bubble, particularly in metropolitan areas or other areas where you can just feel that that diversity is championed, for lack of a better term, or just that you feel safe. I think sometimes as black Feathers, as we navigate ourselves around around the country, you sort of almost had like an innate feeling within yourself whether you're safe somewhere or not. Like you know, for example, I've traveled to regional New South Wales recently, and you know, when you're just traveling through places and you can just like feel it within yourself, like someone's like, murders have definitely happened here. I'm definitely you know, I definitely don't want to be pulled over. I definitely don't want to be young with anyone at the shop Black. It's it's definitely feel and I have felt that way around Rockhampton before. I will say, but I also have the knowledge that, you know, some bad things have happened in those general regions, But it's also the same as walking through Brisbane City. You know that things have happened there, but I feel like that that feeling. I don't know if you've been to Sydney yet, but that feeling in Sydney is black blows it right out of the water.

It was yeah, sort more like a reality check in a way, like it's very easy to feel safe in your bubble, particularly in metropolitan areas or other areas where you can just feel that that diversity is championed, for lack of a better term, or just that you feel safe. I think sometimes as black Feathers, as we navigate ourselves around around the country, you sort of almost had like an innate feeling within yourself whether you're safe somewhere or not. Like you know, for example, I've traveled to regional New South Wales recently, and you know, when you're just traveling through places and you can just like feel it within yourself, like someone's like, murders have definitely happened here. I'm definitely you know, I definitely don't want to be pulled over. I definitely don't want to be young with anyone at the shop Black. It's it's definitely feel and I have felt that way around Rockhampton before. I will say, but I also have the knowledge that, you know, some bad things have happened in those general regions, But it's also the same as walking through Brisbane City. You know that things have happened there, but I feel like that that feeling. I don't know if you've been to Sydney yet, but that feeling in Sydney is black blows it right out of the water.

You can definitely feel that energy. But yeah, like would.

You can definitely feel that energy. But yeah, like would.

You find did you find many stereotypes or misconceptions particularly out in that regional area, and like how did you like navigate that before you.

You find did you find many stereotypes or misconceptions particularly out in that regional area, and like how did you like navigate that before you.

Moved to Brisbane. Yeah, I kind of.

Moved to Brisbane. Yeah, I kind of.

I think the way that I sort of processed those stereotypes was to internalize it in a way that I didn't even quite realize was like a form of internalized racism almost, Like I kind of trivialized it. And when people would make racist comments, I and always disguised as like a joke, and you know, usually not at my expense, but when it was they you know, they were always joking. And so I kind of learned this this defense mechanism just to sort of laugh it off because I thought that if I was in on the joke and I was no longer the butt.

I think the way that I sort of processed those stereotypes was to internalize it in a way that I didn't even quite realize was like a form of internalized racism almost, Like I kind of trivialized it. And when people would make racist comments, I and always disguised as like a joke, and you know, usually not at my expense, but when it was they you know, they were always joking. And so I kind of learned this this defense mechanism just to sort of laugh it off because I thought that if I was in on the joke and I was no longer the butt.

And yeah, and I think my moving.

And yeah, and I think my moving.

To Brisbane was definitely a process of I'm learning like as as you know, cliches it sounds, I'm learning that internalized racism. I'm learning that sort of I don't know that, that defense mechanism and replacing it with a kind of staunchness being like, well, you know, I don't think I don't know why you think you can get away with making comments like that, whether.

To Brisbane was definitely a process of I'm learning like as as you know, cliches it sounds, I'm learning that internalized racism. I'm learning that sort of I don't know that, that defense mechanism and replacing it with a kind of staunchness being like, well, you know, I don't think I don't know why you think you can get away with making comments like that, whether.

They are around me or not around me.

They are around me or not around me.

You know, there's no room for that sort of these stereotypes to exist anymore.

You know, there's no room for that sort of these stereotypes to exist anymore.

Yeah. Absolutely, Do you feel like by being in Brisbane and other like metropolitan regions where where that attitude and perspective I guess is more common that it is not more common, that it is a rarity, Like have you found that it's been a major influence in like that progression. I suppose from having that all internal to bringing in outwards.

Yeah. Absolutely, Do you feel like by being in Brisbane and other like metropolitan regions where where that attitude and perspective I guess is more common that it is not more common, that it is a rarity, Like have you found that it's been a major influence in like that progression. I suppose from having that all internal to bringing in outwards.

I think so, I think, you know, it's kind of funny because in Brisbane, obviously the attitudes were much more progressive. I was also surrounded by a lot less of our mob, you know, it was it was usually just a lot more white people who were you know, very you know allies, very like outwardly spoken, loud and proud allies for our mob, but not actually being submerged in the mobs in and around Brisbane as much as I was in Rockhampton, because you know, I was going to high school with Deromble people. I was, you know, going to events with Deromble people. I was very much like surrounded all the time and had people to talk to about it. I don't think I had that especially, you know, like I said, I moved to Brisbane for university. I you know, there were some days when I was at university and looking around and just being like, how many black fellows are actually on this pervis right now?

I think so, I think, you know, it's kind of funny because in Brisbane, obviously the attitudes were much more progressive. I was also surrounded by a lot less of our mob, you know, it was it was usually just a lot more white people who were you know, very you know allies, very like outwardly spoken, loud and proud allies for our mob, but not actually being submerged in the mobs in and around Brisbane as much as I was in Rockhampton, because you know, I was going to high school with Deromble people. I was, you know, going to events with Deromble people. I was very much like surrounded all the time and had people to talk to about it. I don't think I had that especially, you know, like I said, I moved to Brisbane for university. I you know, there were some days when I was at university and looking around and just being like, how many black fellows are actually on this pervis right now?

You know, Like how many.

You know, Like how many.

People could I go to that like would be able to point me in the right direction to get in contact with black fallows around here, and I just don't think that was I don't know as much of a Yeah, it was just I wasn't in proximity to it, which was surreal, But I knew that it was a safer space theoretically.

People could I go to that like would be able to point me in the right direction to get in contact with black fallows around here, and I just don't think that was I don't know as much of a Yeah, it was just I wasn't in proximity to it, which was surreal, But I knew that it was a safer space theoretically.

I just you know, wasn't seeing black fathers as much as I was seeing them. Yeah, it definitely would have been diluted. I guess the large just the pure size of the city alone, I think does.

I just you know, wasn't seeing black fathers as much as I was seeing them. Yeah, it definitely would have been diluted. I guess the large just the pure size of the city alone, I think does.

That to a lot of different communities.

That to a lot of different communities.

But there also probably isn't really a central kind of place where it's kind of well known, I suppose, like who's who and who's where.

But there also probably isn't really a central kind of place where it's kind of well known, I suppose, like who's who and who's where.

But yeah, it's you sort of have to be in the know.

But yeah, it's you sort of have to be in the know.

And that's that's sometimes the trickiest part about moving to different cities in general. And speaking of moving to the cities, how have you found that attitude is change from Brisbane to How are you feeling now in probably the most progressive city in the country.

And that's that's sometimes the trickiest part about moving to different cities in general. And speaking of moving to the cities, how have you found that attitude is change from Brisbane to How are you feeling now in probably the most progressive city in the country.

I mean, I'm definitely definitely feeling that the attitudes, Like you said, that instinct when you go to a place and you kind of intuitively know that it's not a safe space or like that, you know, you can't discuss your identity as a Black follower in a way that wouldn't be compromising with safety. I think for sure I have felt completely comfortable all the time, which is reassuring definitely. It's also like I'm so far away from my mob, from my country, and so it's kind of unreconciling that as well, sort of like realizing, you know, as much as I do feel safe and comfortable here, it's not my country, which you know, being back on country is I'm sure for you as well. Like being in boxing, like on the river is definitely a kind of a spiritual experience, Like it is pretty empowering and sometimes maybe I'm just a bit homesick, but sometimes they definitely feel that disky.

I mean, I'm definitely definitely feeling that the attitudes, Like you said, that instinct when you go to a place and you kind of intuitively know that it's not a safe space or like that, you know, you can't discuss your identity as a Black follower in a way that wouldn't be compromising with safety. I think for sure I have felt completely comfortable all the time, which is reassuring definitely. It's also like I'm so far away from my mob, from my country, and so it's kind of unreconciling that as well, sort of like realizing, you know, as much as I do feel safe and comfortable here, it's not my country, which you know, being back on country is I'm sure for you as well. Like being in boxing, like on the river is definitely a kind of a spiritual experience, Like it is pretty empowering and sometimes maybe I'm just a bit homesick, but sometimes they definitely feel that disky.

Like it is.

Like it is.

I think sometimes when you're a bit younger and like you think that everything needs your attention now and that you're in a rush. I think that place is probably the only place that gets me to slow down and to be present and to be.

I think sometimes when you're a bit younger and like you think that everything needs your attention now and that you're in a rush. I think that place is probably the only place that gets me to slow down and to be present and to be.

The absolute core of myself. So yeah, I definitely know what you mean.

The absolute core of myself. So yeah, I definitely know what you mean.

And by like, I've only recently kind of done my pilgrimage around the country and in different places, but yeah, I found home is There's there's been no no substitute, but we obviously miss you and we're excited to have you back whenever you're ready to come back. But like it will, it's also always going to be here, and that's the beauty of it. Like it's been here for sixty thousand years and it's going to stay for another sixty thousand years, hopefully if we don't ruin the planet. But you know, country is always going to be there for you, and you'll find that it's it's within you as well, no matter where you go.

And by like, I've only recently kind of done my pilgrimage around the country and in different places, but yeah, I found home is There's there's been no no substitute, but we obviously miss you and we're excited to have you back whenever you're ready to come back. But like it will, it's also always going to be here, and that's the beauty of it. Like it's been here for sixty thousand years and it's going to stay for another sixty thousand years, hopefully if we don't ruin the planet. But you know, country is always going to be there for you, and you'll find that it's it's within you as well, no matter where you go.

But a little trick. Our amazing granddad once said to me.

But a little trick. Our amazing granddad once said to me.

We were out in the boat one day and he said, you know, whenever you touch the salt water, no matter where you are, you know you're connected to home. It's the same water that we're on right now. And I always think about that whenever i'm away. That is so Grandad as well.

We were out in the boat one day and he said, you know, whenever you touch the salt water, no matter where you are, you know you're connected to home. It's the same water that we're on right now. And I always think about that whenever i'm away. That is so Grandad as well.

I love.

I love.

Yeah, I also took that as a reason to get a wave tatoo, but we're going to put that on my twenty.

Yeah, I also took that as a reason to get a wave tatoo, but we're going to put that on my twenty.

One year old brain.

One year old brain.

But but other than that, yeah, I think it's it's a good It's actually it's just a good young for the order.

But but other than that, yeah, I think it's it's a good It's actually it's just a good young for the order.

All the sot water up who are in the.

All the sot water up who are in the.

Beyond country to know that you, yeah, get out in the sand where if you are near it and lucky to be near it. Yeah, knowing that you're yeah, connected to home, connection to that water always what I was wondering, Nate. You know, being queer black fellows, we have we wear multiple hats. You from a biracial family as well as I am. That's something that you know, we navigate really differently, and like it's it's really interesting the contrast of you know, skin coloring. Without going too heavy into this, but like we both have you know, Caucasian fathers and black mothers and your family. Somehow, I think the printer had all the ink and then in my family, yeah, the melanin didn't.

Beyond country to know that you, yeah, get out in the sand where if you are near it and lucky to be near it. Yeah, knowing that you're yeah, connected to home, connection to that water always what I was wondering, Nate. You know, being queer black fellows, we have we wear multiple hats. You from a biracial family as well as I am. That's something that you know, we navigate really differently, and like it's it's really interesting the contrast of you know, skin coloring. Without going too heavy into this, but like we both have you know, Caucasian fathers and black mothers and your family. Somehow, I think the printer had all the ink and then in my family, yeah, the melanin didn't.

Really hit as hard.

Really hit as hard.

But yeah, it's but luckily, I suppose where I grew up versus where you grew up, we had completely different experiences within by navigating that world. Like I grew up somewhat on country in some years of my life I was here, but yeah, in rock Campton obviously that wasn't you know, where all our cousins are and where people you know in community know you super well.

But yeah, it's but luckily, I suppose where I grew up versus where you grew up, we had completely different experiences within by navigating that world. Like I grew up somewhat on country in some years of my life I was here, but yeah, in rock Campton obviously that wasn't you know, where all our cousins are and where people you know in community know you super well.

You sort of had to do that work to get to them.

You sort of had to do that work to get to them.

But what was that, Like, I guess navigating the multiple hats and I guess the intersectionality that is your identity.

But what was that, Like, I guess navigating the multiple hats and I guess the intersectionality that is your identity.

How did you find ways.

How did you find ways.

To navigate and get to a point where you could really embrace that?

To navigate and get to a point where you could really embrace that?

Yeah, well I think it's it's kind of funny because, yeah, like you said, I do I have darker skin, but I think I inherited a lot of my dad's features, So I like, have you know, kind of Eurocentric facial features, which kind of makes me racially ambiguous. So it's not I don't I don't think by no means white passing, but you know, it definitely put me in situations where people didn't immediately clock that I was indigenous, and so maybe felt comfortable saying things that they wouldn't otherwise saying if they had no.

Yeah, well I think it's it's kind of funny because, yeah, like you said, I do I have darker skin, but I think I inherited a lot of my dad's features, So I like, have you know, kind of Eurocentric facial features, which kind of makes me racially ambiguous. So it's not I don't I don't think by no means white passing, but you know, it definitely put me in situations where people didn't immediately clock that I was indigenous, and so maybe felt comfortable saying things that they wouldn't otherwise saying if they had no.

What did you often get? Like, so what do people think you?

What did you often get? Like, so what do people think you?

Like? What ethical origin did people think you had? If it wasn't ab I've gotten everything under the sun.

Like? What ethical origin did people think you had? If it wasn't ab I've gotten everything under the sun.

Most of the time it's Middle East, and it was Indian a lot when I was younger, people have guessed Italian Egyptians. Yeah, so a whole range of incorrect Nobody ever guesses indigenous guys frustrated. Actually, in university, in like one of my so sociology courses, we were sitting in a class discussing I don't know, probably Latin rights or something, and one of the guys in the group was like, well, none of us is indigenous, so you can't really talk about it. I was like, well, well actually, and so yeah, it's just that conversation over and over. Yeah, I think I think my mom and your mom sort of share this common traite. Well, actually, no, your mom is more diligent with and more passionate about researching our family's history and our lineage, whereas my mom has always just sort of had this attitude that like, we're black and it doesn't matter you know, like where our how far our roots extend, or in what direction or we need to know is that we're black. So my dad actually put in a lot of leg work when we were younger to sort of trace back our family history. And so that's where I kind of which is like funny to say. Obviously I could always talk to you know, our grandparents or our relatives to find out more about our mob, but yeah, I definitely depended on my dad to sort of educate us about you know, our background points, which is kind of yeah, funny.

Most of the time it's Middle East, and it was Indian a lot when I was younger, people have guessed Italian Egyptians. Yeah, so a whole range of incorrect Nobody ever guesses indigenous guys frustrated. Actually, in university, in like one of my so sociology courses, we were sitting in a class discussing I don't know, probably Latin rights or something, and one of the guys in the group was like, well, none of us is indigenous, so you can't really talk about it. I was like, well, well actually, and so yeah, it's just that conversation over and over. Yeah, I think I think my mom and your mom sort of share this common traite. Well, actually, no, your mom is more diligent with and more passionate about researching our family's history and our lineage, whereas my mom has always just sort of had this attitude that like, we're black and it doesn't matter you know, like where our how far our roots extend, or in what direction or we need to know is that we're black. So my dad actually put in a lot of leg work when we were younger to sort of trace back our family history. And so that's where I kind of which is like funny to say. Obviously I could always talk to you know, our grandparents or our relatives to find out more about our mob, but yeah, I definitely depended on my dad to sort of educate us about you know, our background points, which is kind of yeah, funny.

It is, but we're also really lucky that it has been preserved historically in a way that it is accessible, which I feel like, yeah, we're like really lucky in you know, across the country, there's so many hundreds or thousands of mobs and language and culture and history, and yeah, we're really lucky that our language can be learned on an app and that.

It is, but we're also really lucky that it has been preserved historically in a way that it is accessible, which I feel like, yeah, we're like really lucky in you know, across the country, there's so many hundreds or thousands of mobs and language and culture and history, and yeah, we're really lucky that our language can be learned on an app and that.

We have so much detailed historical records.

We have so much detailed historical records.

But that is also because of the colonization that's happened in this region.

But that is also because of the colonization that's happened in this region.

And yeah, like it's it's quite special.

And yeah, like it's it's quite special.

I'm going to ask you about because we're all coming up black and the name kind of termed from something that Mitika and I both have to do being I guess white passing stereotypically, and we used to be kind of more straight passing back when we launched this podcast about five years ago. The one thing that we did, it did have to do a lot, was kind of come out, for lack of a better term, as black in those environments where people do not think that you are or as part of the LGBTQI community, when people don't think you are as well, do you have like a fond memory of like maybe the first time you had to come out as a First Nations person in an environment where well, yeah, let me let me rephrase it.

I'm going to ask you about because we're all coming up black and the name kind of termed from something that Mitika and I both have to do being I guess white passing stereotypically, and we used to be kind of more straight passing back when we launched this podcast about five years ago. The one thing that we did, it did have to do a lot, was kind of come out, for lack of a better term, as black in those environments where people do not think that you are or as part of the LGBTQI community, when people don't think you are as well, do you have like a fond memory of like maybe the first time you had to come out as a First Nations person in an environment where well, yeah, let me let me rephrase it.

Do you have Yeah, do you have like was.

Do you have Yeah, do you have like was.

Your first memory of coming out, you know, as black in an environment where you sort of needed to? Do you have many like distinct memories of coming out in that way.

Your first memory of coming out, you know, as black in an environment where you sort of needed to? Do you have many like distinct memories of coming out in that way.

I think in terms of distinct memories, I think it's sort of just like I said, it just it has become sort of just like a a repeated conversation, like just used to. I can almost anticipate when someone is like, you know it doesn't want to ask, oh, what's your background, but they're of like talking around it, and so like, you know, I will usually these days just you know, mention it.

I think in terms of distinct memories, I think it's sort of just like I said, it just it has become sort of just like a a repeated conversation, like just used to. I can almost anticipate when someone is like, you know it doesn't want to ask, oh, what's your background, but they're of like talking around it, and so like, you know, I will usually these days just you know, mention it.

Offhand so that everybody you know is aware.

Offhand so that everybody you know is aware.

But I think some of the most exciting times are when I, you know, reveal that I am Indigenous and people ask, you know, who my mob is. And then I remember one time this girl that I met at a party, actually she was like, oh, I actually grew up on Gubby Gubby Country and we just really bonded over that. And she was said, you know, like even though she wasn't indigenous, she grew up on a property, and she sort of just understood. She was like, that country really nurtured me, and I know that your mob nurtured that country at one point. And she said, so I feel like, you know, there's that cyclical nature of just like reciprocity, I guess, or just like looking after one another. And I think that was like a very because you know, a lot of our solidarity with our mob is through connections, throughmmunity, and I think bonding with community in that way is sort of just like how does the country bring us together? Yeah, and you know, for that one person, it really bring us really close. So yeah, that was that was really a moment that I was really grateful for, you know, starting that conversation, because otherwise we wouldn't have reached that point.

But I think some of the most exciting times are when I, you know, reveal that I am Indigenous and people ask, you know, who my mob is. And then I remember one time this girl that I met at a party, actually she was like, oh, I actually grew up on Gubby Gubby Country and we just really bonded over that. And she was said, you know, like even though she wasn't indigenous, she grew up on a property, and she sort of just understood. She was like, that country really nurtured me, and I know that your mob nurtured that country at one point. And she said, so I feel like, you know, there's that cyclical nature of just like reciprocity, I guess, or just like looking after one another. And I think that was like a very because you know, a lot of our solidarity with our mob is through connections, throughmmunity, and I think bonding with community in that way is sort of just like how does the country bring us together? Yeah, and you know, for that one person, it really bring us really close. So yeah, that was that was really a moment that I was really grateful for, you know, starting that conversation, because otherwise we wouldn't have reached that point.

It's beautiful and it's really good to hear a positive story. You know, sometimes a lot of a lot of us in these who identify in this way usually have a lot of negative coming out stories, both you know, to do with homophobia and racism. So it is really good to hear a story that makes you feel happy. I suppose and hope and hopeful that this country is moving towards, you know, direction where that will become more common. I really, I really really hope that mm hmm. Speaking of this country, I thought I would check in with you. How you're feeling post our national embarrassment of a day last month.

It's beautiful and it's really good to hear a positive story. You know, sometimes a lot of a lot of us in these who identify in this way usually have a lot of negative coming out stories, both you know, to do with homophobia and racism. So it is really good to hear a story that makes you feel happy. I suppose and hope and hopeful that this country is moving towards, you know, direction where that will become more common. I really, I really really hope that mm hmm. Speaking of this country, I thought I would check in with you. How you're feeling post our national embarrassment of a day last month.

How have you felt the community at large? What are the what are the feelings out there at the moment.

How have you felt the community at large? What are the what are the feelings out there at the moment.

Well, I think you know, for me personally, and I'm sure for you as well, it's always been a point of initially anxiety. Obviously we've never celebrated this day, and then just in the lead up to the day itself, you can kind of anticipate the conversations that are going to happen, and you can kind of you kind of recognize that like it's going to unless a response in you, whether that response is welcome or not. Sometimes it's anger, sometimes it's anxiety. A lot of the times for me it was anxiety. But the more years that go on and on and the more that I attend Invasion Day rallies, which I have since leaving Rockhampton, but every year progressively the rallies get bigger, this year being at the Melbourne rally, and I'm I'm not sure what the turnout was like at the Brisbane rally. I'm sure it was huge, but it definitely I was just it kind of clicked for me that you know, there is this ritual where like our mob come together every day, you know, every year on this day, brief together, five together, you know, stand alongside each other. And so it has instead become a point of power, and I think for non Indigenous people the day has kind of I was reading this piece from newy Kugori.

Well, I think you know, for me personally, and I'm sure for you as well, it's always been a point of initially anxiety. Obviously we've never celebrated this day, and then just in the lead up to the day itself, you can kind of anticipate the conversations that are going to happen, and you can kind of you kind of recognize that like it's going to unless a response in you, whether that response is welcome or not. Sometimes it's anger, sometimes it's anxiety. A lot of the times for me it was anxiety. But the more years that go on and on and the more that I attend Invasion Day rallies, which I have since leaving Rockhampton, but every year progressively the rallies get bigger, this year being at the Melbourne rally, and I'm I'm not sure what the turnout was like at the Brisbane rally. I'm sure it was huge, but it definitely I was just it kind of clicked for me that you know, there is this ritual where like our mob come together every day, you know, every year on this day, brief together, five together, you know, stand alongside each other. And so it has instead become a point of power, and I think for non Indigenous people the day has kind of I was reading this piece from newy Kugori.

I'm not sure if you're sorry.

I'm not sure if you're sorry.

She wrote a piece for Kraiki about how Black Fellows have successfully made the day cringe for anybody that celebrates it. I think even you know, white follows when they celebrate it. I'm like, surely this doesn't hit the same for you and it did ten years ago. Surely, Like there's a weird tension where you're like, oh, people that kind of pissed at us for celebrating this day now and you know, good, like you should be feeling embarrassed about celebrating that shit. It's like, you know, it should be cringing for you because it has always been cringing for us exactly.

She wrote a piece for Kraiki about how Black Fellows have successfully made the day cringe for anybody that celebrates it. I think even you know, white follows when they celebrate it. I'm like, surely this doesn't hit the same for you and it did ten years ago. Surely, Like there's a weird tension where you're like, oh, people that kind of pissed at us for celebrating this day now and you know, good, like you should be feeling embarrassed about celebrating that shit. It's like, you know, it should be cringing for you because it has always been cringing for us exactly.

And I thinel like it's it's moving towards the way that we feel. I think is a country about like American patriotism, like I think the whole most of Australia. I think there's just kind of a societal when you see, like America, like the whole stars and stripes and eagle and like redneck, muscular like patriotism vibes that usually are entangled with you know, neo Nazi and far right Donald Trump tripe stuff. But I think even they trying to have a look at themselves as a country, and I think the way that I think Australia kind of sees how gross that is, I think that's starting to have a bit of a turn in this country as well, which is which is really.

And I thinel like it's it's moving towards the way that we feel. I think is a country about like American patriotism, like I think the whole most of Australia. I think there's just kind of a societal when you see, like America, like the whole stars and stripes and eagle and like redneck, muscular like patriotism vibes that usually are entangled with you know, neo Nazi and far right Donald Trump tripe stuff. But I think even they trying to have a look at themselves as a country, and I think the way that I think Australia kind of sees how gross that is, I think that's starting to have a bit of a turn in this country as well, which is which is really.

Good and I love that term like it is I think to celebrate it.

Good and I love that term like it is I think to celebrate it.

Yeah, I think like and even you know will worst Like the whole debacle with them not selling Australia Emerge is a whole other kettle of fish. Like obviously that's an economic, financial, corporate decision that they've made does nothing for Black Follows, But at the same time, it's just so funny watching White Follows freak out about it and think that it's like the you know, the decline of the nation, like the national patriotism is, you know, in jeopardy or whatever because a grocery store isn't selling them.

Yeah, I think like and even you know will worst Like the whole debacle with them not selling Australia Emerge is a whole other kettle of fish. Like obviously that's an economic, financial, corporate decision that they've made does nothing for Black Follows, But at the same time, it's just so funny watching White Follows freak out about it and think that it's like the you know, the decline of the nation, like the national patriotism is, you know, in jeopardy or whatever because a grocery store isn't selling them.

Society, white fragility is showing, and it's showing hard, and people are so scared of something they don't they don't know. But the white fragility is strong, and I think the more people understand that, they're recognizing it. I think even you know, like white follows are recognizing that within their own community as well and calling it out, which has been probably one of the one of the best things I think to come of this god forsaken debate that happens every year, is seeing the turn and I don't think we're that many years off it actually moving or some kind of action happening, which is Yeah, it gives me a little bit of hope that we will continue to progress despite the referendum, despite the increase of racism. I think in some ways people are people are realizing like, I actually don't align with this, I don't align with what this politician saying.

Society, white fragility is showing, and it's showing hard, and people are so scared of something they don't they don't know. But the white fragility is strong, and I think the more people understand that, they're recognizing it. I think even you know, like white follows are recognizing that within their own community as well and calling it out, which has been probably one of the one of the best things I think to come of this god forsaken debate that happens every year, is seeing the turn and I don't think we're that many years off it actually moving or some kind of action happening, which is Yeah, it gives me a little bit of hope that we will continue to progress despite the referendum, despite the increase of racism. I think in some ways people are people are realizing like, I actually don't align with this, I don't align with what this politician saying.

I don't align with this.

I don't align with this.

Type of behavior totally, you know, But you know, a lot of a lot of that is to do with the media and the way that we tell stories and generational echoing. And you and I come from, you know, a family that talk and talk and talk, and you know, I think we've got the matriarchs of you know, our grandmother and mothers that you know, are in the phone every second day, updating each other about, you know, whatever's happening in life. So I think we've got a long line of news sharing and storytelling that has shaped I think some of what we both want to do with our time and our careers. And you, more specifically, you've gone and done journalism and studied politics, and how do you think you want to leave your mark on the world in the time that you've got and the skill sets that you have.

Type of behavior totally, you know, But you know, a lot of a lot of that is to do with the media and the way that we tell stories and generational echoing. And you and I come from, you know, a family that talk and talk and talk, and you know, I think we've got the matriarchs of you know, our grandmother and mothers that you know, are in the phone every second day, updating each other about, you know, whatever's happening in life. So I think we've got a long line of news sharing and storytelling that has shaped I think some of what we both want to do with our time and our careers. And you, more specifically, you've gone and done journalism and studied politics, and how do you think you want to leave your mark on the world in the time that you've got and the skill sets that you have.

Yeah, well, you know, I've always, you know, sort of come from a place where I've recognized that indigenous stories need to be told by an indigenous perspective.

Yeah, well, you know, I've always, you know, sort of come from a place where I've recognized that indigenous stories need to be told by an indigenous perspective.

Our history has.

Our history has.

Long been recorded by colonizers, and so the process of decolonization is retelling those stories through an indigenous lens. And so it's I did initially study politics because I, in my you know, naivity, thought that indigenous affairs could be could effectively be addressed through a political platform, through a top down approach.

Long been recorded by colonizers, and so the process of decolonization is retelling those stories through an indigenous lens. And so it's I did initially study politics because I, in my you know, naivity, thought that indigenous affairs could be could effectively be addressed through a political platform, through a top down approach.

But it's just it's just never going to happen.

But it's just it's just never going to happen.

It's never going to happen from colony designed to preserve itself, from a government preserved designed to preserve itself. So I've always been Yeah, I think since that realization, I've always been looking for ways to you know, direct the narrative. And I think that journalism sort of allows me to, you know, ideally, hopefully it'll give me a platform where I can tell other Indigenous people's stories through an Indigenous lens. And yeah, I think that is very much needed, not just for representation's sake, but like you said, we grew up with our the matriarchs of our family passing down usually gossip, but you know, sometimes important, important lessons, and that is a tradition that has dated back thousands of years. You know, storytelling has by and large been our mob's form of education as well as like historical record keeping, which you know, I think by continuing to tell the stories, we're sort of keeping that facet of our culture.

It's never going to happen from colony designed to preserve itself, from a government preserved designed to preserve itself. So I've always been Yeah, I think since that realization, I've always been looking for ways to you know, direct the narrative. And I think that journalism sort of allows me to, you know, ideally, hopefully it'll give me a platform where I can tell other Indigenous people's stories through an Indigenous lens. And yeah, I think that is very much needed, not just for representation's sake, but like you said, we grew up with our the matriarchs of our family passing down usually gossip, but you know, sometimes important, important lessons, and that is a tradition that has dated back thousands of years. You know, storytelling has by and large been our mob's form of education as well as like historical record keeping, which you know, I think by continuing to tell the stories, we're sort of keeping that facet of our culture.

Alike in contemporary mechanisms in ways like it's continuing our somewhats and in just a different in a different form, it's continuing our culture even if they are just stories about you know what black others are doing, it all, it all fits, and I think as ya, as time goes on, hopefully the way that you feel about change in this country might change, hopefully from a political landscape.

Alike in contemporary mechanisms in ways like it's continuing our somewhats and in just a different in a different form, it's continuing our culture even if they are just stories about you know what black others are doing, it all, it all fits, and I think as ya, as time goes on, hopefully the way that you feel about change in this country might change, hopefully from a political landscape.

But we all have a role to play, you know, like the.

But we all have a role to play, you know, like the.

Media have such a role in influencing the country and influencing the people in this country around or informing them firstly, but it also does influence and we need strong, authentic, honest stories and an infant So I'm glad that we have people like you writing them for us and sharing them and continuing on, you know, for our mob. But before I let you go in, I wanted to want to ask you, I guess if you could think about yourself as a fourteen fifteen, sixteen year old out rocky for other mob about there that were like you at that time, what advice would you give them, knowing what you know now?

Media have such a role in influencing the country and influencing the people in this country around or informing them firstly, but it also does influence and we need strong, authentic, honest stories and an infant So I'm glad that we have people like you writing them for us and sharing them and continuing on, you know, for our mob. But before I let you go in, I wanted to want to ask you, I guess if you could think about yourself as a fourteen fifteen, sixteen year old out rocky for other mob about there that were like you at that time, what advice would you give them, knowing what you know now?

Good question, I think, you know, I think just find just trust your intuition. Like if, especially when it comes to the people in your life you care about, if you love them and they love you, and you feel safe with them and you feel like you trust them, then the chances are that that intuition is correct, and you should be able to, you know, talk about your identity in a way that is empowering and shouldn't be a point of shame.

Good question, I think, you know, I think just find just trust your intuition. Like if, especially when it comes to the people in your life you care about, if you love them and they love you, and you feel safe with them and you feel like you trust them, then the chances are that that intuition is correct, and you should be able to, you know, talk about your identity in a way that is empowering and shouldn't be a point of shame.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think I wish I knew that that, you know, there were people around me who did have genuine anual love.

I think I wish I knew that that, you know, there were people around me who did have genuine anual love.

And space for me and we're ready to listen.

And space for me and we're ready to listen.

But I just wasn't ready to speak about it until I did.

But I just wasn't ready to speak about it until I did.

And that's okay too.

And that's okay too.

And it's it's time, and you know, if it's some I guess in regional areas, it's it's also okay to to wait, as long as it's not detrimental.

And it's it's time, and you know, if it's some I guess in regional areas, it's it's also okay to to wait, as long as it's not detrimental.

Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, Like that's some that's some really good advice, you know.

Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah, Like that's some that's some really good advice, you know.

And I was wondering, you know, as queer black cothers, you know, we navigate the world so so differently to other mob and to other people and other queer people.

And I was wondering, you know, as queer black cothers, you know, we navigate the world so so differently to other mob and to other people and other queer people.

It is just such a unique kind of intersection.

It is just such a unique kind of intersection.

And I feel really lucky in some ways that I have this I guess, unique experience of life that maybe others don't get to have. And it has its positives, it has its negatives, but the one kind of overwhelming feeling is like luck and appreciation, and I almost feel you know, no, I definitely do feel I feel really lucky that Nate like that we you and I get to kind of experiences together within our own I guess smaller.

And I feel really lucky in some ways that I have this I guess, unique experience of life that maybe others don't get to have. And it has its positives, it has its negatives, but the one kind of overwhelming feeling is like luck and appreciation, and I almost feel you know, no, I definitely do feel I feel really lucky that Nate like that we you and I get to kind of experiences together within our own I guess smaller.

You know, family or community. What do you think like the future is for us?

You know, family or community. What do you think like the future is for us?

Like do you in terms of the way that we're understood and discussed and seeing you know, in the country, what do you hope the future is for us?

Like do you in terms of the way that we're understood and discussed and seeing you know, in the country, what do you hope the future is for us?

Mob And what do you think the country?

Mob And what do you think the country?

What would you like the country just to do to I suppose make it easier for us in the way that we navigate the colony.

What would you like the country just to do to I suppose make it easier for us in the way that we navigate the colony.

Well, I would say, like I my hope is that queer black fellows given the space to form their own communities. You know, I know historically queer people form communities together black fellows obviously, you know, our culture is forming communities. But I think it's important that non indigenous queer people recognize that there needs to be space for queer indigenous people or queer people of color to form their own communities because you know, and I am so great to have you as well, because we really didn't have any queer indigenous elders in our family.

Well, I would say, like I my hope is that queer black fellows given the space to form their own communities. You know, I know historically queer people form communities together black fellows obviously, you know, our culture is forming communities. But I think it's important that non indigenous queer people recognize that there needs to be space for queer indigenous people or queer people of color to form their own communities because you know, and I am so great to have you as well, because we really didn't have any queer indigenous elders in our family.

Just sort of pay the way yeah, you know, pay the way.

Just sort of pay the way yeah, you know, pay the way.

But our generation is going to be those queer elders or you know, an emerging generation of young black fellows. So I think, yeah, it's important that now, it's a really important time to plant those routes, to form those communities and pave the way for the next generation.

But our generation is going to be those queer elders or you know, an emerging generation of young black fellows. So I think, yeah, it's important that now, it's a really important time to plant those routes, to form those communities and pave the way for the next generation.

And Nate, thank you so much for coming on and you know, being a part of this conversation and helping, you know, helping share our stories far and wide. And yeah, like many others, I think we're all we're all rooting for you and what we hope to share your share your pieces and share your stories and yeah, just watch your flourish and yeah, become further of the amazing personation. So all the best, my cousins, And also, where can our listeners find you.

And Nate, thank you so much for coming on and you know, being a part of this conversation and helping, you know, helping share our stories far and wide. And yeah, like many others, I think we're all we're all rooting for you and what we hope to share your share your pieces and share your stories and yeah, just watch your flourish and yeah, become further of the amazing personation. So all the best, my cousins, And also, where can our listeners find you.

I don't really have a huge social media presence, but I'm at a Nate dot vv on Instagram where I usually share some of my pieces.

I don't really have a huge social media presence, but I'm at a Nate dot vv on Instagram where I usually share some of my pieces.

Find me there. All right, thank you so much again, thanks for having.

Find me there. All right, thank you so much again, thanks for having.

Me, Thanks for listening to another episode of Coming Out Black. You can find us at coming Out Black blak on Instagram, Facebook, and any way you.

Me, Thanks for listening to another episode of Coming Out Black. You can find us at coming Out Black blak on Instagram, Facebook, and any way you.

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This episode is brought to you by the Blackcast Network and produced by Clink Purtis

This episode is brought to you by the Blackcast Network and produced by Clink Purtis