There is a tension, even in the title of the conversation you're about to hear today a tension between ministry and business, a tension between money and spiritual stuff, the tension between the mission God has called you to and the goals you set, the programs you implement. I have felt this for so long, being in a ministry or in a church setting, and today I'm finally going to have all my questions answered. Or gasp! Maybe I'll find some new questions and some new tension. When I saw the title of Pastor Jeff Simon's book, I was Hooked The Business of Ministry How to Maximize God's Resources for Kingdom Impact. Jeff says ministry and business are not mutually exclusive in God's order, they go together. If you have lived in the tension of business and ministry, or maybe you're there right now, I want to hear from you today. This is Chris favorite live. Welcome to the radio backyard fence. Find us online Chris favorite living org. Thanks to our team behind the scenes Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical traces. Our producer Gavin, you'll be helping out today. Anthony will be answering your calls one week. That's all we have left in our offer of one of the most practical, encouraging and motivating books on prayer I think I've ever read. If you feel your prayer, life is not what it could be, might be what you want it to be. Give a gift of any size to this program to help us. In January, we're going to send you a copy of a little book by doctor Bill Thrasher, How to Resurrect a Dead Prayer Life Transforming your Prayers into a spirit empowered, life giving adventure. From chapter 11. God is the sovereign master of the universe who works all things after the counsel of his will. Ephesians one. And he has chosen to work through prayer. I don't understand that thoroughly, but I believe it. So when you pray, you are cooperating with God. You are participating in the work that he is doing in the world. Think about that. I think this will help you call us. 86695. Fabbri. Give a gift of any size. (866) 953-2279 or go to Chris Fabri live or scroll down. You'll see how you can be a friend or partner with us. I just heard this morning in a business meeting that 56% of our monthly support comes from partners who give a gift each month. Maybe you want to be one of those. Go to Chris Fabbri live.org. Thanks for your support at the radio backyard fence. Quote the business of ministry is stewarding and maximizing the assets God has entrusted to you for impacting people's lives in the name of Jesus. We have access to greater resources than ever in history, and we must learn to steward all of it well. How we handle what has been given us is important to God, ourselves, our families, our communities, and our world today, as well as to the next generations. So says Jeff Simmons, founding and senior pastor of Rolling Hills Community Church in Middle Tennessee. He's married to Lisa. They have three children. He's also the president of Justice and Mercy International. A featured resource is the Business of Ministry founded at Chris Fabry Live. Org. Jeff, how are you doing today?

There is a tension, even in the title of the conversation you're about to hear today a tension between ministry and business, a tension between money and spiritual stuff, the tension between the mission God has called you to and the goals you set, the programs you implement. I have felt this for so long, being in a ministry or in a church setting, and today I'm finally going to have all my questions answered. Or gasp! Maybe I'll find some new questions and some new tension. When I saw the title of Pastor Jeff Simon's book, I was Hooked The Business of Ministry How to Maximize God's Resources for Kingdom Impact. Jeff says ministry and business are not mutually exclusive in God's order, they go together. If you have lived in the tension of business and ministry, or maybe you're there right now, I want to hear from you today. This is Chris favorite live. Welcome to the radio backyard fence. Find us online Chris favorite living org. Thanks to our team behind the scenes Ryan McConaughey doing all things technical traces. Our producer Gavin, you'll be helping out today. Anthony will be answering your calls one week. That's all we have left in our offer of one of the most practical, encouraging and motivating books on prayer I think I've ever read. If you feel your prayer, life is not what it could be, might be what you want it to be. Give a gift of any size to this program to help us. In January, we're going to send you a copy of a little book by doctor Bill Thrasher, How to Resurrect a Dead Prayer Life Transforming your Prayers into a spirit empowered, life giving adventure. From chapter 11. God is the sovereign master of the universe who works all things after the counsel of his will. Ephesians one. And he has chosen to work through prayer. I don't understand that thoroughly, but I believe it. So when you pray, you are cooperating with God. You are participating in the work that he is doing in the world. Think about that. I think this will help you call us. 86695. Fabbri. Give a gift of any size. (866) 953-2279 or go to Chris Fabri live or scroll down. You'll see how you can be a friend or partner with us. I just heard this morning in a business meeting that 56% of our monthly support comes from partners who give a gift each month. Maybe you want to be one of those. Go to Chris Fabbri live.org. Thanks for your support at the radio backyard fence. Quote the business of ministry is stewarding and maximizing the assets God has entrusted to you for impacting people's lives in the name of Jesus. We have access to greater resources than ever in history, and we must learn to steward all of it well. How we handle what has been given us is important to God, ourselves, our families, our communities, and our world today, as well as to the next generations. So says Jeff Simmons, founding and senior pastor of Rolling Hills Community Church in Middle Tennessee. He's married to Lisa. They have three children. He's also the president of Justice and Mercy International. A featured resource is the Business of Ministry founded at Chris Fabry Live. Org. Jeff, how are you doing today?

Chris I'm doing fantastic. Thanks so much for having me on.

Chris I'm doing fantastic. Thanks so much for having me on.

Tell me your story. You were a business major and then went into ministry. Tell me about that.

Tell me your story. You were a business major and then went into ministry. Tell me about that.

Oh yeah. Uh, yeah. I grew up at a Christian home. Uh, so thankful for godly parents. And, you know, I watched my dad. My dad was in business, and I just thought that was the direction of my life. I thought I would be a Christian businessman. That was always my dream, you know, to go to college and major in business. I wanted to maybe work on the Chicago stock. Action. I really felt like, you know, I wanted to make a lot of money. I wanted to be generous. I wanted to be involved in a local church. Uh, I wanted to go on mission trips and sponsor, you know, kids, I really wanted to make a difference. I felt like that there was a direction of my life. And I saw my dad do that really well. And his friends.

Oh yeah. Uh, yeah. I grew up at a Christian home. Uh, so thankful for godly parents. And, you know, I watched my dad. My dad was in business, and I just thought that was the direction of my life. I thought I would be a Christian businessman. That was always my dream, you know, to go to college and major in business. I wanted to maybe work on the Chicago stock. Action. I really felt like, you know, I wanted to make a lot of money. I wanted to be generous. I wanted to be involved in a local church. Uh, I wanted to go on mission trips and sponsor, you know, kids, I really wanted to make a difference. I felt like that there was a direction of my life. And I saw my dad do that really well. And his friends.

They were.

They were.

And so I went to college. I majored in finance. And then when I graduated, uh, all my interviews were in business, and I was interviewing in Saint Louis with a major, uh, fortune 50 company. And interviews went great the whole day. I came back to my hotel that night. Chris and I got to tell you, I couldn't sleep. I got down on my knees. I was like, God, what is it? And I felt like the Lord just really spoke to me and said, I've called you to ministry. And I was like, what does that mean? You know, like, God, I felt like this was the direction, you know, and it God was like, uh, no, I've called you to be in full time ministry, you know, vocational ministry. So I had a real wrestling with God. And, uh, I went to the interview the next day and said, guys, thanks for having me. Um, but I don't feel like this is where I'm supposed to be. One of my best friends took the job. He's, uh, doing really well in business, and. But I came back, uh, and I took a job with a local bank, and then a church called me, uh, just the next week and said, hey, we did ministry. And I walked in on that Wednesday night and saw these kids. I was like, this is what God's call me to do. And I've loved it. Just loved it.

And so I went to college. I majored in finance. And then when I graduated, uh, all my interviews were in business, and I was interviewing in Saint Louis with a major, uh, fortune 50 company. And interviews went great the whole day. I came back to my hotel that night. Chris and I got to tell you, I couldn't sleep. I got down on my knees. I was like, God, what is it? And I felt like the Lord just really spoke to me and said, I've called you to ministry. And I was like, what does that mean? You know, like, God, I felt like this was the direction, you know, and it God was like, uh, no, I've called you to be in full time ministry, you know, vocational ministry. So I had a real wrestling with God. And, uh, I went to the interview the next day and said, guys, thanks for having me. Um, but I don't feel like this is where I'm supposed to be. One of my best friends took the job. He's, uh, doing really well in business, and. But I came back, uh, and I took a job with a local bank, and then a church called me, uh, just the next week and said, hey, we did ministry. And I walked in on that Wednesday night and saw these kids. I was like, this is what God's call me to do. And I've loved it. Just loved it.

You right? When God first called me into ministry, what surprised me most was how much business was involved in the work.

You right? When God first called me into ministry, what surprised me most was how much business was involved in the work.

My first month.

My first month.

At the church was during budget season. Tell me about that.

At the church was during budget season. Tell me about that.

Yeah, so here I am, you know, out of college, first ministry job and you know, so it's budget time. And everybody on all the other staff members were, you know, kind of going crazy. They're like, oh, this is the worst time I was spending all this time on numbers. I'm not a numbers person. And and to me it was natural. It's like, okay, you know, we got our revenues, what are our expenses? And we're laying all this out. You're budgeting. But what I realized then, uh, after, you know, going through that process, then went to seminary. And as seminary, they don't teach you this, you know, we don't have any classes on business. Uh, and then when you're in the ministry world, whether you're a, you know, Christian radio or broadcast or whether you're pastoring a church or whether you're doing missions, there's a lot of business to do. And I realized that God was equipping me even back in college with a business degree. And you use it a lot. I mean, budgets and organization and delegation and so went on and on and on. But yeah, I was very thankful for that business education.

Yeah, so here I am, you know, out of college, first ministry job and you know, so it's budget time. And everybody on all the other staff members were, you know, kind of going crazy. They're like, oh, this is the worst time I was spending all this time on numbers. I'm not a numbers person. And and to me it was natural. It's like, okay, you know, we got our revenues, what are our expenses? And we're laying all this out. You're budgeting. But what I realized then, uh, after, you know, going through that process, then went to seminary. And as seminary, they don't teach you this, you know, we don't have any classes on business. Uh, and then when you're in the ministry world, whether you're a, you know, Christian radio or broadcast or whether you're pastoring a church or whether you're doing missions, there's a lot of business to do. And I realized that God was equipping me even back in college with a business degree. And you use it a lot. I mean, budgets and organization and delegation and so went on and on and on. But yeah, I was very thankful for that business education.

You know, one of the the banks that you went to to get a loan, you know, the business plan or there was a vision for expansion. And they said most churches that come in here and one alone do it on the back of a napkin, you know, and you guys had had done enough.

You know, one of the the banks that you went to to get a loan, you know, the business plan or there was a vision for expansion. And they said most churches that come in here and one alone do it on the back of a napkin, you know, and you guys had had done enough.

But God called us to play at the church. Chris, you know, I, uh, here I was, I did student ministry, uh, for about ten years. And then we stepped out. We had 15 people met in an apartment clubhouse. And then God started moving and working, and we went to to a bank to get the loan out for a new building. And that was a total God story. Miracle after miracle. But we walked in and we had this whole pro forma as we were looking at, you know, here's the cost analysis. And they started laughing. They go with churches, just don't do this. You know, they come in and like I said, on the back of a napkin. And so it was it was really kind of gave us an in with the banks. And we have some people now at church who were a part of that, met them at the bank, and they started coming to church. They said, we want to be a church that's well organized. We want a church that maximizes the kingdom, assets and resources, and we know our tithe money is going to be used well. So I do think it matters. You know, I think as Christians, we trust God is the only one who could change a heart. But also given us the ability to use the resources and the disciplines in the culture we live in, in a way to maximize the resources for the glory of God.

But God called us to play at the church. Chris, you know, I, uh, here I was, I did student ministry, uh, for about ten years. And then we stepped out. We had 15 people met in an apartment clubhouse. And then God started moving and working, and we went to to a bank to get the loan out for a new building. And that was a total God story. Miracle after miracle. But we walked in and we had this whole pro forma as we were looking at, you know, here's the cost analysis. And they started laughing. They go with churches, just don't do this. You know, they come in and like I said, on the back of a napkin. And so it was it was really kind of gave us an in with the banks. And we have some people now at church who were a part of that, met them at the bank, and they started coming to church. They said, we want to be a church that's well organized. We want a church that maximizes the kingdom, assets and resources, and we know our tithe money is going to be used well. So I do think it matters. You know, I think as Christians, we trust God is the only one who could change a heart. But also given us the ability to use the resources and the disciplines in the culture we live in, in a way to maximize the resources for the glory of God.

And that's a good synopsis of what Jeff has written in the business of ministry how to maximize God Resources for Kingdom Impact. You can find it at the website Chris Fabry live. Org. And I wonder if there's anybody right in the middle of this right now. And because you may be listening and you're going through a budget process here at the beginning of the year, or you're trying to as a, as a pastor, trying to figure out, okay, where do we go from here? We've been in a school for a long time. We're trying to find a build a property where we could build or buy a building. What is the tension that you feel in the business of ministry where you are? (877) 548-3675 more with Pastor Simmons straight ahead on Moody Radio. Jeff Simmons is with us today at the radio Backyard Fence. You can find out more about him at Chris Fabry live for the Business of Ministry is our featured resource there. And I found this quote to be really enlightening. There will always be tension between faith and business. Every year we have this debate in our annual budget meeting. On one side, we have the people who say we need to step out in faith, initiate some new programs, and hire new staff. Let's just trust the Lord to provide. Yet on the other side, we have people who say we need to be wise about how much we increase the budget. We need to study past performance, future projections, and the economic climate of how to use the money God has entrusted to us. What is the answer? Do you budget on faith or on business projections? We're going to get Jeff to answer that question. And I, I know of a ministry where the leader of the ministry said, look, if we if people send money for us, we're going to Max. We're going to use all of that for every, you know, right now, right here, we're going to do as much ministry as we possibly can right here with what we're given. So at the end of the fiscal year, you know, we spend it all and we start again. And somebody on the board said, wait a minute, timeout. Hang on a minute. You you don't you don't run your house that way. I hope you you do this, you do your due diligence and you you budget and you have something to fall back on. If things don't go as you thought they were going to. So you don't presume so. Uh, Ryan, did you say he's there on the. Okay, good. All right, so what is the answer? Jeff, I just read this long quote. Do you budget on faith or on business projections?

And that's a good synopsis of what Jeff has written in the business of ministry how to maximize God Resources for Kingdom Impact. You can find it at the website Chris Fabry live. Org. And I wonder if there's anybody right in the middle of this right now. And because you may be listening and you're going through a budget process here at the beginning of the year, or you're trying to as a, as a pastor, trying to figure out, okay, where do we go from here? We've been in a school for a long time. We're trying to find a build a property where we could build or buy a building. What is the tension that you feel in the business of ministry where you are? (877) 548-3675 more with Pastor Simmons straight ahead on Moody Radio. Jeff Simmons is with us today at the radio Backyard Fence. You can find out more about him at Chris Fabry live for the Business of Ministry is our featured resource there. And I found this quote to be really enlightening. There will always be tension between faith and business. Every year we have this debate in our annual budget meeting. On one side, we have the people who say we need to step out in faith, initiate some new programs, and hire new staff. Let's just trust the Lord to provide. Yet on the other side, we have people who say we need to be wise about how much we increase the budget. We need to study past performance, future projections, and the economic climate of how to use the money God has entrusted to us. What is the answer? Do you budget on faith or on business projections? We're going to get Jeff to answer that question. And I, I know of a ministry where the leader of the ministry said, look, if we if people send money for us, we're going to Max. We're going to use all of that for every, you know, right now, right here, we're going to do as much ministry as we possibly can right here with what we're given. So at the end of the fiscal year, you know, we spend it all and we start again. And somebody on the board said, wait a minute, timeout. Hang on a minute. You you don't you don't run your house that way. I hope you you do this, you do your due diligence and you you budget and you have something to fall back on. If things don't go as you thought they were going to. So you don't presume so. Uh, Ryan, did you say he's there on the. Okay, good. All right, so what is the answer? Jeff, I just read this long quote. Do you budget on faith or on business projections?

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, and I think that's the thing that we all struggle with, right. We trust that God is going to provide. So there is always a settlement of faith. God is sovereign over it all. But he also gave us a mind. He gave us brains for a reason. And he wants us to be good stewards. He wants us to be wise. I mean, he got the parable of the talents, you know, and and so we can either bury that or we can put it to work. And so I think when you look at a budget, you do you go, okay, I want to use the the wisdom God's given me, but I also want to put some faith in there. You know, I don't want to just conform to the pattern of the world and just go with budget numbers. But what what is that element of faith that God's calling me to stretch, to trust? So there is a tension that we have when we do the budgets for our church, for our personal lives, uh, for our families. I think that's so important for us to know.

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, and I think that's the thing that we all struggle with, right. We trust that God is going to provide. So there is always a settlement of faith. God is sovereign over it all. But he also gave us a mind. He gave us brains for a reason. And he wants us to be good stewards. He wants us to be wise. I mean, he got the parable of the talents, you know, and and so we can either bury that or we can put it to work. And so I think when you look at a budget, you do you go, okay, I want to use the the wisdom God's given me, but I also want to put some faith in there. You know, I don't want to just conform to the pattern of the world and just go with budget numbers. But what what is that element of faith that God's calling me to stretch, to trust? So there is a tension that we have when we do the budgets for our church, for our personal lives, uh, for our families. I think that's so important for us to know.

What I'm getting from your book and hearing your story is this is about responsibility before God to steward well and with integrity what we've been given, entrusted with, and not to call it good because it's church work, you know, that's the good enough for church work. So to do all of that, not on the back of a napkin, but to do it well for his glory, our good. And then the outreach, how and how people's lives can change. Am I catching it?

What I'm getting from your book and hearing your story is this is about responsibility before God to steward well and with integrity what we've been given, entrusted with, and not to call it good because it's church work, you know, that's the good enough for church work. So to do all of that, not on the back of a napkin, but to do it well for his glory, our good. And then the outreach, how and how people's lives can change. Am I catching it?

You're catching it, Chris. I mean, that's it. I mean, God has entrusted us with the greatest work of all, right? And and you have the opportunity to impact the kingdom. You have the opportunity to impact generations for the glory of God. And so for us, we shall be given our best. You know, Oswald Chambers, my utmost for his highest. And I think sometimes what can happen is we go to church and we're like, yeah, that's good enough, right? Or, man, I've really worked hard this week at my job, you know, or worked hard in school. I gave my best there. So it's almost like God gets our leftovers and none of us want to do that. All of us want to give our best to God. But God's church, the Bride of Christ, we ought to be doing it better than anybody. There ought to be businesses and schools and, you know, everybody coming to us and saying, how are you doing this? You know, because we want to run things that well, I think that's the early church. I mean, you look at the early church and there was a movement of God happening. Now. They were organized. Go to acts chapter six. Right. And the, you know, the apostles didn't have time to do everything. And so they called out men full of wisdom and the Holy Spirit and turned over, um, the waiting on tables to them. And so they were organized. And then but they still stewarded things. Well, I mean, man, God with Ananias and Sapphira, you know, or you think about Barnabas coming and laying down, selling a field, bringing out all the money to the church. So I think you see that. And that's where the Spirit of God is moving, uh, in the church and why it's so important for us today.

You're catching it, Chris. I mean, that's it. I mean, God has entrusted us with the greatest work of all, right? And and you have the opportunity to impact the kingdom. You have the opportunity to impact generations for the glory of God. And so for us, we shall be given our best. You know, Oswald Chambers, my utmost for his highest. And I think sometimes what can happen is we go to church and we're like, yeah, that's good enough, right? Or, man, I've really worked hard this week at my job, you know, or worked hard in school. I gave my best there. So it's almost like God gets our leftovers and none of us want to do that. All of us want to give our best to God. But God's church, the Bride of Christ, we ought to be doing it better than anybody. There ought to be businesses and schools and, you know, everybody coming to us and saying, how are you doing this? You know, because we want to run things that well, I think that's the early church. I mean, you look at the early church and there was a movement of God happening. Now. They were organized. Go to acts chapter six. Right. And the, you know, the apostles didn't have time to do everything. And so they called out men full of wisdom and the Holy Spirit and turned over, um, the waiting on tables to them. And so they were organized. And then but they still stewarded things. Well, I mean, man, God with Ananias and Sapphira, you know, or you think about Barnabas coming and laying down, selling a field, bringing out all the money to the church. So I think you see that. And that's where the Spirit of God is moving, uh, in the church and why it's so important for us today.

You know, and I agree with everything you've said, and I agree with everything that I've read that you have written. But I still have this problem. And I think and I think the major problem that I have is and I've seen it happen over the last few decades, and that is if something works in the culture, if something works in the business world, then we will look to, all right, how do we bring that over here and how do we make it fit into what we're doing, so that we kind of put this template over the church and, uh, discipleship and spirituality? Uh, we we asked the question, does it work? And if it does, then it's good, then it's successful. And I, I think the early church, uh, you know, it worked obviously, because here they were, just a handful of people, not very many people at all. And they turned the world upside down. But it wasn't because of some business practice that that they brought in. They didn't bring a strategist in and tell them, well, here's what you have to do with your app and all of that. It was this move of God. So respond to that. Do you see the same thing?

You know, and I agree with everything you've said, and I agree with everything that I've read that you have written. But I still have this problem. And I think and I think the major problem that I have is and I've seen it happen over the last few decades, and that is if something works in the culture, if something works in the business world, then we will look to, all right, how do we bring that over here and how do we make it fit into what we're doing, so that we kind of put this template over the church and, uh, discipleship and spirituality? Uh, we we asked the question, does it work? And if it does, then it's good, then it's successful. And I, I think the early church, uh, you know, it worked obviously, because here they were, just a handful of people, not very many people at all. And they turned the world upside down. But it wasn't because of some business practice that that they brought in. They didn't bring a strategist in and tell them, well, here's what you have to do with your app and all of that. It was this move of God. So respond to that. Do you see the same thing?

Yeah, I totally see the same thing now. I think we can learn, right? I mean, truth is truth. Now. The message always stays the same. I mean, it's all Jesus. Jesus is the foundation of it all. I mean, I was in a Bible study this morning with a bunch of men from church, and we were talking Galatians chapter one. And, you know, you come back to Christ and Christ Jesus alone. Uh, but there are things that we learn. I mean, we don't do the church the same way they did 500 years ago or 1000 years ago. We're in a different time. We're in a different culture. So how do we do church today? And that early church grew, right? I mean, they started out 120 believers, you know, in acts chapter one and two. And then it obviously the Lord adds to the number of daily those who are being saved, 3000. So we're not talking small church went from 3000 to 5000, 20,000 and began to sweep over. And so it was important for them to be good stewards. It was important for them to be organized and to take care of widows and people in distress, and then doing mission trips. I mean, sending out Paul and Barnabas and, you know, the whole movement that happened. So I think that is important. But in our day, in our time, how do we reach this culture? Right? I mean, the disciples never thought about, hey, I'm going to use the internet to share the gospel on mission, you know? But we need to I mean, every church we realized during Covid, we got to go online. You know, we need to have an online presence. Uh, and so more and more, how do we take what's happening in our world, not compromise the message in any type of way? It's only Jesus who changes a heart and changes a life. And it's only Jesus who will be the fuel for the church. You know, he is the foundation. Uh, it's the power of the Holy Spirit working in people's lives. But for us too, in our day, our time, in our culture, how do we present Christ and share Christ and impact people's lives? What can we learn from what's happening out there and how people respond? So I think it's a both and on some of that. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I totally see the same thing now. I think we can learn, right? I mean, truth is truth. Now. The message always stays the same. I mean, it's all Jesus. Jesus is the foundation of it all. I mean, I was in a Bible study this morning with a bunch of men from church, and we were talking Galatians chapter one. And, you know, you come back to Christ and Christ Jesus alone. Uh, but there are things that we learn. I mean, we don't do the church the same way they did 500 years ago or 1000 years ago. We're in a different time. We're in a different culture. So how do we do church today? And that early church grew, right? I mean, they started out 120 believers, you know, in acts chapter one and two. And then it obviously the Lord adds to the number of daily those who are being saved, 3000. So we're not talking small church went from 3000 to 5000, 20,000 and began to sweep over. And so it was important for them to be good stewards. It was important for them to be organized and to take care of widows and people in distress, and then doing mission trips. I mean, sending out Paul and Barnabas and, you know, the whole movement that happened. So I think that is important. But in our day, in our time, how do we reach this culture? Right? I mean, the disciples never thought about, hey, I'm going to use the internet to share the gospel on mission, you know? But we need to I mean, every church we realized during Covid, we got to go online. You know, we need to have an online presence. Uh, and so more and more, how do we take what's happening in our world, not compromise the message in any type of way? It's only Jesus who changes a heart and changes a life. And it's only Jesus who will be the fuel for the church. You know, he is the foundation. Uh, it's the power of the Holy Spirit working in people's lives. But for us too, in our day, our time, in our culture, how do we present Christ and share Christ and impact people's lives? What can we learn from what's happening out there and how people respond? So I think it's a both and on some of that. Yeah. Does that make sense?

It does. And and I'm catching your heart at all. It all comes back to him. But I still struggle with okay moving the business into the church. I also struggle with how do you because you're talking about making you need to make a kingdom impact. You want or you want to use everything. Leverage it for the kingdom as much as you can to reach as many as you can. But, um, there were missionaries years and years ago who went over and, you know, took their coffin with them, basically because they didn't know whether they were coming back or not. They put all their stuff in there and and had very little response while they were there. And I'm thinking, so you didn't make much of a kingdom impact. Now you go down the the centuries, you go into decades and you see there was a legacy that was left. God was at work. But if you only look at what happened in that person's lifetime, you can get really discouraged. So who gets to quantify the kingdom impact?

It does. And and I'm catching your heart at all. It all comes back to him. But I still struggle with okay moving the business into the church. I also struggle with how do you because you're talking about making you need to make a kingdom impact. You want or you want to use everything. Leverage it for the kingdom as much as you can to reach as many as you can. But, um, there were missionaries years and years ago who went over and, you know, took their coffin with them, basically because they didn't know whether they were coming back or not. They put all their stuff in there and and had very little response while they were there. And I'm thinking, so you didn't make much of a kingdom impact. Now you go down the the centuries, you go into decades and you see there was a legacy that was left. God was at work. But if you only look at what happened in that person's lifetime, you can get really discouraged. So who gets to quantify the kingdom impact?

Amen. You're exactly right. We just have to be faithful to what we're given. And maybe that is, you know, one person that your that's your call, you know, um, and that's that's perfectly great. I mean, God's going to honor that. I mean, the person who led Billy Graham to Christ, right? I mean, you never know. He's just just being faithful as a Sunday school teacher and leads Billy Graham, who impacts, you know, millions and millions of people. So you have to be faithful where you are, but you also have to continue to grow and learn and use what God's entrusted to you. You know, I think we're going to be judged. I mean, we're the wealthiest nation that's ever existed in history. The United States and 90% of all Christian resources are in the United States. So we can either sit around and we can be fat and happy and have, you know, our group of 10 or 12, and then that we're perfectly content in ourselves, but we're also going to be held accountable for that. I mean, we don't just build bigger houses and get, you know, refurbish our house over and over again and, uh, you know, go to every sporting event. It's fine to have fun sometimes, but if we're just doing those things for ourselves, we're missing out on using what God's entrusted to us to further his kingdom. And I think, you know, I think I like Bill bright, right? I mean, he has this vision, hey, I'm going to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. I'm going to live out the Great Commission. And so what does he do? Right? Did Jesus film and over a billion people. And I just think every Christ follower has to at some point ask themselves, right, why has God entrusted me with the resources he's given me? Why do I have the education I have? Why do I have the money I have? Why do I have the influence I have now with social media? I could be sharing Christ. In many ways. The results aren't up to us. We're we're not judged on that. We're just called to be faithful and leave the results up to God. But every one of us ought to be challenged in our faith and every church, you know, this is our time. Um, you know, they're sending missionaries from Africa to the United States now, right? Because but that's on us as a church. We have to be the ones that are saying, hey, my and my really leading people and my growing, fully mature disciples and my mentoring and my, you know, sharing the Word of God with others, I think that's where I get burdened by. And there's ways that we can do that more effectively.

Amen. You're exactly right. We just have to be faithful to what we're given. And maybe that is, you know, one person that your that's your call, you know, um, and that's that's perfectly great. I mean, God's going to honor that. I mean, the person who led Billy Graham to Christ, right? I mean, you never know. He's just just being faithful as a Sunday school teacher and leads Billy Graham, who impacts, you know, millions and millions of people. So you have to be faithful where you are, but you also have to continue to grow and learn and use what God's entrusted to you. You know, I think we're going to be judged. I mean, we're the wealthiest nation that's ever existed in history. The United States and 90% of all Christian resources are in the United States. So we can either sit around and we can be fat and happy and have, you know, our group of 10 or 12, and then that we're perfectly content in ourselves, but we're also going to be held accountable for that. I mean, we don't just build bigger houses and get, you know, refurbish our house over and over again and, uh, you know, go to every sporting event. It's fine to have fun sometimes, but if we're just doing those things for ourselves, we're missing out on using what God's entrusted to us to further his kingdom. And I think, you know, I think I like Bill bright, right? I mean, he has this vision, hey, I'm going to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. I'm going to live out the Great Commission. And so what does he do? Right? Did Jesus film and over a billion people. And I just think every Christ follower has to at some point ask themselves, right, why has God entrusted me with the resources he's given me? Why do I have the education I have? Why do I have the money I have? Why do I have the influence I have now with social media? I could be sharing Christ. In many ways. The results aren't up to us. We're we're not judged on that. We're just called to be faithful and leave the results up to God. But every one of us ought to be challenged in our faith and every church, you know, this is our time. Um, you know, they're sending missionaries from Africa to the United States now, right? Because but that's on us as a church. We have to be the ones that are saying, hey, my and my really leading people and my growing, fully mature disciples and my mentoring and my, you know, sharing the Word of God with others, I think that's where I get burdened by. And there's ways that we can do that more effectively.

I want you to give me an example. Uh, let me reset things here. This is Chris Fabri, live Moody radio. Pastor Jeff Simmons is with us. If you go to the website Chris Fabry Live org, you'll see our featured resource, The Business of Ministry. And even that title I said, is going to create some tension in you as you listen to it. But as you hear Jeff talk about it, I think you're understanding more of what he's saying. Go to Chris favorite archive.org. Here's the number (877) 548-3675. So we have about five minutes before we take a break. Tell give me an example of business and ministry. It could be when you started the church or bought the building or whatever. Show me how this worked itself out in your life and in the church there.

I want you to give me an example. Uh, let me reset things here. This is Chris Fabri, live Moody radio. Pastor Jeff Simmons is with us. If you go to the website Chris Fabry Live org, you'll see our featured resource, The Business of Ministry. And even that title I said, is going to create some tension in you as you listen to it. But as you hear Jeff talk about it, I think you're understanding more of what he's saying. Go to Chris favorite archive.org. Here's the number (877) 548-3675. So we have about five minutes before we take a break. Tell give me an example of business and ministry. It could be when you started the church or bought the building or whatever. Show me how this worked itself out in your life and in the church there.

Oh Chris, great question. You know, when we started the church, right, we had 15 people. We did a Bible study on Thursday nights and it was great, but we started to grow. And so we went to the Marriott Hotel and talk to them about, you know, leasing the ballroom on Sunday mornings. And and it worked. And so by God's grace, he opened the door, we went and we met there. We would do baptism in the indoor swimming pool. So after church we'd all walk down and people swimming there at the Marriott. Uh, but then they came to us and said, you know, hey, next week we have a Amway convention or next week we have. And so we are praying about where to go. And so God opened the door to go to the movie theater. We met in a movie theater for five years. And then God opened the door for this warehouse in Franklin, Tennessee, the old Georgia boot factory. They made boots here, 146,000ft², I mean, but here we are. We're a young church, and we were 2 to 300 people, a lot of young college students, young adults and so we have some people on our team who were wise and like we mentioned earlier, and we went to the bank and we talked to them, but we couldn't afford the whole the whole thing. And, uh, there was a Christian businessman who came. And this is where I'm so passionate about, you know, men and women in business who have those skills and those abilities get them around you. If you're a pastor or you have committees, you know, uh, and so we talked about having leases. We didn't need all 146,000ft². And so we got three leases. All credit tenants ended up building out the space. And then we built out our space. But there, you know, monthly rent payments end up paying our entire mortgage on the building. It was only God. I mean, God just opened a door and said, look what you can do. I'm giving you this asset, this resource. And then we would try to be good stewards with that. And so now when people give, you know, their tithes, their offerings, we're able to do ministry and missions. And that's how we started Justice and Mercy International, working with orphans in Moldova and with the, you know, pastors. I'll be leaving Saturday to do a pastor's conference in the Amazon jungle. Uh, so it's been incredible to watch God work. And these are just principles that we've learned that we're just trying to pass on to other churches and nonprofits and other lay leaders who say, hey, I want to leverage what God's given me for his glory.

Oh Chris, great question. You know, when we started the church, right, we had 15 people. We did a Bible study on Thursday nights and it was great, but we started to grow. And so we went to the Marriott Hotel and talk to them about, you know, leasing the ballroom on Sunday mornings. And and it worked. And so by God's grace, he opened the door, we went and we met there. We would do baptism in the indoor swimming pool. So after church we'd all walk down and people swimming there at the Marriott. Uh, but then they came to us and said, you know, hey, next week we have a Amway convention or next week we have. And so we are praying about where to go. And so God opened the door to go to the movie theater. We met in a movie theater for five years. And then God opened the door for this warehouse in Franklin, Tennessee, the old Georgia boot factory. They made boots here, 146,000ft², I mean, but here we are. We're a young church, and we were 2 to 300 people, a lot of young college students, young adults and so we have some people on our team who were wise and like we mentioned earlier, and we went to the bank and we talked to them, but we couldn't afford the whole the whole thing. And, uh, there was a Christian businessman who came. And this is where I'm so passionate about, you know, men and women in business who have those skills and those abilities get them around you. If you're a pastor or you have committees, you know, uh, and so we talked about having leases. We didn't need all 146,000ft². And so we got three leases. All credit tenants ended up building out the space. And then we built out our space. But there, you know, monthly rent payments end up paying our entire mortgage on the building. It was only God. I mean, God just opened a door and said, look what you can do. I'm giving you this asset, this resource. And then we would try to be good stewards with that. And so now when people give, you know, their tithes, their offerings, we're able to do ministry and missions. And that's how we started Justice and Mercy International, working with orphans in Moldova and with the, you know, pastors. I'll be leaving Saturday to do a pastor's conference in the Amazon jungle. Uh, so it's been incredible to watch God work. And these are just principles that we've learned that we're just trying to pass on to other churches and nonprofits and other lay leaders who say, hey, I want to leverage what God's given me for his glory.

Okay, you got to tell the story about the wheelbarrow when you had, you know, the for several weeks. You know, you said, we're going to see how much we can raise here on this one Sunday morning in order to use it for the down payment. Right.

Okay, you got to tell the story about the wheelbarrow when you had, you know, the for several weeks. You know, you said, we're going to see how much we can raise here on this one Sunday morning in order to use it for the down payment. Right.

Right.

Right.

Oh, Chris. I was I wish you could've been there. I mean, it was incredible. I was. I'll never forget it. So here we are. You know, church of, you know, 300, uh, or so, 300, 400. But they're all young adults, all college students and then young marrieds. We had, you know, kids. Uh, but on one Sunday, we said, hey, everybody, you know, God's opened the door, but we don't have a whole lot in savings, you know? So. So would you stretch? Would we, you know, dip into our retirement? We're dipping into our savings and let's invest. I mean, we can, you know, use it for us, or we can use it for the furthering God's kingdom. And on that one Sunday, uh, Chris, I'll never forget, we had the wheelbarrow down in front of the movie theater, and we started just saying, hey, come down if you want to, if you want to give. And all the kids, our kids, they came in on the side first and they brought their piggy banks and we thought, oh, look, you know, these sweet kids are going to, you know, put some coins from their piggy bank in. Oh, no. They took their piggy banks and turned them upside down and just started dumping them into this wheelbarrow, every.

Oh, Chris. I was I wish you could've been there. I mean, it was incredible. I was. I'll never forget it. So here we are. You know, church of, you know, 300, uh, or so, 300, 400. But they're all young adults, all college students and then young marrieds. We had, you know, kids. Uh, but on one Sunday, we said, hey, everybody, you know, God's opened the door, but we don't have a whole lot in savings, you know? So. So would you stretch? Would we, you know, dip into our retirement? We're dipping into our savings and let's invest. I mean, we can, you know, use it for us, or we can use it for the furthering God's kingdom. And on that one Sunday, uh, Chris, I'll never forget, we had the wheelbarrow down in front of the movie theater, and we started just saying, hey, come down if you want to, if you want to give. And all the kids, our kids, they came in on the side first and they brought their piggy banks and we thought, oh, look, you know, these sweet kids are going to, you know, put some coins from their piggy bank in. Oh, no. They took their piggy banks and turned them upside down and just started dumping them into this wheelbarrow, every.

One of them.

One of them.

And, I mean, it's the sound of those coins hitting that metal wheelbarrow reverberated through the whole theater. I mean, we're crying. We just see their faithfulness, seeing their joy. I mean, these kids are smiling. They're laughing. They're so happy. And I mean, every adult in there, we were like, take it all. God, you know, just take it all. And we came down and and gave it. I never forget they called me or we had a finance team who, you know, I said.

And, I mean, it's the sound of those coins hitting that metal wheelbarrow reverberated through the whole theater. I mean, we're crying. We just see their faithfulness, seeing their joy. I mean, these kids are smiling. They're laughing. They're so happy. And I mean, every adult in there, we were like, take it all. God, you know, just take it all. And we came down and and gave it. I never forget they called me or we had a finance team who, you know, I said.

Okay, don't tell me, don't tell me yet. Hang on. This is this is what they say is a tease in the business. You got to hear how much was in that wheelbarrow, but you won't hear it until our next segment come back. You'll hear more about the business of ministry from Jeff Simmons. (877) 548-3675. Have you sensed this tension of business and ministry? I want to hear about it today. She was a big success. The group she sang with sold millions of albums. But about four days ago, Kyle Jones said this at a pro-life rally in California. I have a Grammy, but none of it will bring my children back. How do you help somebody who is still reeling from the effects of a decision made five, ten, 15, 20 years ago? Karen is doing that through their Arc ministry abortion recovery and care. It's part of the pro abundant life approach that cabinet has. They want to save babies. Absolutely. But they also know that the pregnant mother and the father of that child, if he's in the picture, also need help and hope and spiritual direction and discipleship. And so did the men and women who went ahead with that abortion and want to heal. If you go to Chris Fabry live. Org, click the green cabinet button. They have a business plan, I'm sure, like we're talking about today. They want to be able to reach into the lives of women and men who are facing an unplanned pregnancy, and to do as much this year as last, or maybe more. Someone you know will need the help of Care net. Find out more today. Go to Chris Fabry live. Org and click the green Care Net button. Pastor Jeff Simmons is the author of The Business of Ministry How to Maximize God's Resources for Kingdom Impact. So a few years ago they had this land and not the land. They had this warehouse that they were going to buy. And it seemed like a good idea. And they just asked, God, you know, how are we going to do this? They need a down payment. I think the businessman gave $700,000, but they were still, you know, 6.5 million to go. And so you asked your congregation. I think the median age was something like 27 years old. So it's not a lot of people there, you know, who had it's not Bill gates is not going to the the church. So what happened in that wheelbarrow?

Okay, don't tell me, don't tell me yet. Hang on. This is this is what they say is a tease in the business. You got to hear how much was in that wheelbarrow, but you won't hear it until our next segment come back. You'll hear more about the business of ministry from Jeff Simmons. (877) 548-3675. Have you sensed this tension of business and ministry? I want to hear about it today. She was a big success. The group she sang with sold millions of albums. But about four days ago, Kyle Jones said this at a pro-life rally in California. I have a Grammy, but none of it will bring my children back. How do you help somebody who is still reeling from the effects of a decision made five, ten, 15, 20 years ago? Karen is doing that through their Arc ministry abortion recovery and care. It's part of the pro abundant life approach that cabinet has. They want to save babies. Absolutely. But they also know that the pregnant mother and the father of that child, if he's in the picture, also need help and hope and spiritual direction and discipleship. And so did the men and women who went ahead with that abortion and want to heal. If you go to Chris Fabry live. Org, click the green cabinet button. They have a business plan, I'm sure, like we're talking about today. They want to be able to reach into the lives of women and men who are facing an unplanned pregnancy, and to do as much this year as last, or maybe more. Someone you know will need the help of Care net. Find out more today. Go to Chris Fabry live. Org and click the green Care Net button. Pastor Jeff Simmons is the author of The Business of Ministry How to Maximize God's Resources for Kingdom Impact. So a few years ago they had this land and not the land. They had this warehouse that they were going to buy. And it seemed like a good idea. And they just asked, God, you know, how are we going to do this? They need a down payment. I think the businessman gave $700,000, but they were still, you know, 6.5 million to go. And so you asked your congregation. I think the median age was something like 27 years old. So it's not a lot of people there, you know, who had it's not Bill gates is not going to the the church. So what happened in that wheelbarrow?

Yeah, Chris, I mean, it was the Spirit of God. There's no other way to say it. You know, those kids are dumping their coins in. We're crying. We came down and gave, and then I left. We just prayed and prayed and prayed in. Their funniest thing called me that afternoon, and they said, Jeff, you wouldn't believe it, but the church just gave $1 million.

Yeah, Chris, I mean, it was the Spirit of God. There's no other way to say it. You know, those kids are dumping their coins in. We're crying. We came down and gave, and then I left. We just prayed and prayed and prayed in. Their funniest thing called me that afternoon, and they said, Jeff, you wouldn't believe it, but the church just gave $1 million.

I was like, what?

I was like, what?

I no way. I thought they were kidding with me, you know? And they go, no, we're serious. And I was like, only God, I just had to stop and praise God and worship. It was the fish in the loaves. I mean, the only way to describe it. You put a little in the hands of God. He multiplies it, just like Jesus did with the fish and loaves. And and we've seen God take that. You know, we were able, by God's grace, that to be able to buy this building with the leases. It's just been an incredible story to see. If you trust God with a little, you trust him. He's going to take and do immeasurably more than you could ever ask or ever imagine.

I no way. I thought they were kidding with me, you know? And they go, no, we're serious. And I was like, only God, I just had to stop and praise God and worship. It was the fish in the loaves. I mean, the only way to describe it. You put a little in the hands of God. He multiplies it, just like Jesus did with the fish and loaves. And and we've seen God take that. You know, we were able, by God's grace, that to be able to buy this building with the leases. It's just been an incredible story to see. If you trust God with a little, you trust him. He's going to take and do immeasurably more than you could ever ask or ever imagine.

What do you say to the church that's meeting in the school or in the theater now? And they're hearing that story that you just told. Are you promising them that they're going to give you that building and the leases?

What do you say to the church that's meeting in the school or in the theater now? And they're hearing that story that you just told. Are you promising them that they're going to give you that building and the leases?

Uh, no, not at all. I mean, I think God has this plan for every church. You know, the church is God's church. I mean, we would have been happy in the in the school if that's where God wanted us to stay. You know, I think our call you have to know this. Our call is to be obedient and not successful, right? Our cause be obedient to Christ. But being obedient means that we use everything that he's given us for his glory. And and so I think if you are meeting in that school or you are meeting in that, you know, apartment, clubhouse, or you're meeting, you know, somewhere and you're praying, then just stretch, you know, I mean, we wouldn't have had it if we didn't ask. I mean, there had to be a point where we trusted God to put a wheelbarrow down front and to call our people to take a next step. And I think sometimes we just get, you know, comfortable in places and we kind of stop, we go, we got our holy huddle and we're happy with all of us. And yet Jesus calls us to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the Holy Spirit. And teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you. And so I think for us, we can't become comfortable, especially in this day and time. We've got to always stretch, and God's given us those resources. They're out there. They're sitting in the chairs, the pews, wherever you are. And people just need to be asked. I mean, they're getting asked by everybody else, right? But the church doesn't ask a lot of times. Hmm.

Uh, no, not at all. I mean, I think God has this plan for every church. You know, the church is God's church. I mean, we would have been happy in the in the school if that's where God wanted us to stay. You know, I think our call you have to know this. Our call is to be obedient and not successful, right? Our cause be obedient to Christ. But being obedient means that we use everything that he's given us for his glory. And and so I think if you are meeting in that school or you are meeting in that, you know, apartment, clubhouse, or you're meeting, you know, somewhere and you're praying, then just stretch, you know, I mean, we wouldn't have had it if we didn't ask. I mean, there had to be a point where we trusted God to put a wheelbarrow down front and to call our people to take a next step. And I think sometimes we just get, you know, comfortable in places and we kind of stop, we go, we got our holy huddle and we're happy with all of us. And yet Jesus calls us to go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the Holy Spirit. And teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you. And so I think for us, we can't become comfortable, especially in this day and time. We've got to always stretch, and God's given us those resources. They're out there. They're sitting in the chairs, the pews, wherever you are. And people just need to be asked. I mean, they're getting asked by everybody else, right? But the church doesn't ask a lot of times. Hmm.

Which takes us to Justice and Mercy International. Tell me about that, because you're not only, you know, senior pastor, they're rolling hills, but also president of Justice and Mercy International.

Which takes us to Justice and Mercy International. Tell me about that, because you're not only, you know, senior pastor, they're rolling hills, but also president of Justice and Mercy International.

Yeah, Chris, that's another good story. You know, when we started, we had 15 people in this clubhouse, and but we said it still can't be just about us. And, uh, I just had a heart for doing missions. Anyway, I had a friend who called and said, hey, Jeff, would you bring a mission team to Moldova? And I said, Where's Moldova? I mean, like 20 years ago, I didn't even know. Now everybody knows where Moldova is. Borders, Ukraine. Uh, but the statistic he gave me was this country of 4 million people in at that time, 60% of girls trafficked into prostitution into Eastern Europe came out of Moldova. And I got to tell you, it broke my heart. And I said, okay, we're going. And so we put it out there and eight months later took 18 people and and went and we fell in love with these precious kids. By God's grace, he opened the door. We were in State-run orphanages. We went in and, you know, kids are sleeping 2 to 3 to a cot, you know, one pair of shoes, one shirt, one short. That's it for the whole year. Uh, and we just said, God, how can you use us? And so we had a mission trip there. We went back the next year. The next year we did three trips. And then as a church, we're meeting in the movie theater, and we actually bought a house in Moldova for kids, because when they left the orphanage at the age of 15, they have nowhere to go. They have nowhere to go. So can you imagine me at 15 and you're out on the streets and and so that's where these girls were so vulnerable to being trafficked, or the boys ended up in organized crime or committing suicide. You never heard from him again. And and we just said, God, we we can't let that happen on our watch. And so we bought a house. We owned property in Moldova before we ever owned property in the United States.

Yeah, Chris, that's another good story. You know, when we started, we had 15 people in this clubhouse, and but we said it still can't be just about us. And, uh, I just had a heart for doing missions. Anyway, I had a friend who called and said, hey, Jeff, would you bring a mission team to Moldova? And I said, Where's Moldova? I mean, like 20 years ago, I didn't even know. Now everybody knows where Moldova is. Borders, Ukraine. Uh, but the statistic he gave me was this country of 4 million people in at that time, 60% of girls trafficked into prostitution into Eastern Europe came out of Moldova. And I got to tell you, it broke my heart. And I said, okay, we're going. And so we put it out there and eight months later took 18 people and and went and we fell in love with these precious kids. By God's grace, he opened the door. We were in State-run orphanages. We went in and, you know, kids are sleeping 2 to 3 to a cot, you know, one pair of shoes, one shirt, one short. That's it for the whole year. Uh, and we just said, God, how can you use us? And so we had a mission trip there. We went back the next year. The next year we did three trips. And then as a church, we're meeting in the movie theater, and we actually bought a house in Moldova for kids, because when they left the orphanage at the age of 15, they have nowhere to go. They have nowhere to go. So can you imagine me at 15 and you're out on the streets and and so that's where these girls were so vulnerable to being trafficked, or the boys ended up in organized crime or committing suicide. You never heard from him again. And and we just said, God, we we can't let that happen on our watch. And so we bought a house. We owned property in Moldova before we ever owned property in the United States.

Um, but.

Um, but.

You know, it was just that's what God was calling us to. And it's been amazing. And so we started Justice and Mercy International, uh, a nonprofit to do greater work. Now, today we have four houses, two for girls, two for boys. When they leave orphanages and they end up can live there. And by God's grace, we're seeing kids coming to know Jesus. We're seeing them get jobs. They're getting into all kinds of education, and they're becoming pastors and missionaries. And, uh, God's doing an incredible work. Uh, and all glory to him. We have over 1000 plus kids that we work with. We have 45 full time staff now in Moldova. Um, indigenous, um, you know, incredible men and women and servants of Christ. And then we started working in the Amazon. And so we do work in the Amazon jungle as well. And that's that's been incredible. They're working with pastors and in villages. Um, so God's been good and and I'm thankful. And that's my heart is just seeing the nations come to know Christ. Yeah.

You know, it was just that's what God was calling us to. And it's been amazing. And so we started Justice and Mercy International, uh, a nonprofit to do greater work. Now, today we have four houses, two for girls, two for boys. When they leave orphanages and they end up can live there. And by God's grace, we're seeing kids coming to know Jesus. We're seeing them get jobs. They're getting into all kinds of education, and they're becoming pastors and missionaries. And, uh, God's doing an incredible work. Uh, and all glory to him. We have over 1000 plus kids that we work with. We have 45 full time staff now in Moldova. Um, indigenous, um, you know, incredible men and women and servants of Christ. And then we started working in the Amazon. And so we do work in the Amazon jungle as well. And that's that's been incredible. They're working with pastors and in villages. Um, so God's been good and and I'm thankful. And that's my heart is just seeing the nations come to know Christ. Yeah.

I can't imagine the complexity, though, of of just a church starting a church with all of the tax implications and, and what you have to send in. But then it's to start a ministry and then an overseas and then to buy of property, you know, buy houses there so that these kids can get a house. I can't imagine the complexity of that without knowing the business world or having somebody on your team that knows it. Right.

I can't imagine the complexity, though, of of just a church starting a church with all of the tax implications and, and what you have to send in. But then it's to start a ministry and then an overseas and then to buy of property, you know, buy houses there so that these kids can get a house. I can't imagine the complexity of that without knowing the business world or having somebody on your team that knows it. Right.

That's the thing, Chris. That's that's what I want to encourage every every church leader, you know, every person listening. I mean, there's people all around you. We're blessed to have some great business people in our church who their heart is for Jesus. They first and foremost. Now God's giving them a gift to to make money or to run companies or businesses or to work in different fields. But man, they want to join in if they're just asked if they're invited into this story. And so we've seen incredible people. I remember we were, you know, one of the people in our church, and she had a big job. And and, you know, we were on a mission trip and we were coming back with a big team. And I just looked at her. I said, you know what? I feel like God's calling you to help us lead this work that's happening in, in Moldova. And she's like, yeah. She goes, but how much would you pay? You know, I'm like, we can offer you maybe half your salary. And she's like, okay, let me pray about it. I mean, she prayed about it and she took the job. I mean, and she's like, I don't know what's crazier. You asked me, you know, or that I took it. I mean, I think there's people who want to use every moment of their lives, every resource they've been given to further God's kingdom. And as church leaders, that's our call, is to help empower God's people. And so it is it's complex, but God is. God is the God of not of confusion, but of competency. And God is a God of clarity, and God is a God who has given us the opportunity. And so I think for every one of us, man, just the people around us, the resources around us, that God's given us an incredible opportunity. Right now.

That's the thing, Chris. That's that's what I want to encourage every every church leader, you know, every person listening. I mean, there's people all around you. We're blessed to have some great business people in our church who their heart is for Jesus. They first and foremost. Now God's giving them a gift to to make money or to run companies or businesses or to work in different fields. But man, they want to join in if they're just asked if they're invited into this story. And so we've seen incredible people. I remember we were, you know, one of the people in our church, and she had a big job. And and, you know, we were on a mission trip and we were coming back with a big team. And I just looked at her. I said, you know what? I feel like God's calling you to help us lead this work that's happening in, in Moldova. And she's like, yeah. She goes, but how much would you pay? You know, I'm like, we can offer you maybe half your salary. And she's like, okay, let me pray about it. I mean, she prayed about it and she took the job. I mean, and she's like, I don't know what's crazier. You asked me, you know, or that I took it. I mean, I think there's people who want to use every moment of their lives, every resource they've been given to further God's kingdom. And as church leaders, that's our call, is to help empower God's people. And so it is it's complex, but God is. God is the God of not of confusion, but of competency. And God is a God of clarity, and God is a God who has given us the opportunity. And so I think for every one of us, man, just the people around us, the resources around us, that God's given us an incredible opportunity. Right now.

There's a lot of vision and a lot of hope, and you can hear it in Jeff's voice today. The business of ministry how to maximize God's Resources for Kingdom impact. It's our featured resource today at the website Chris Fabry Live Dawg Chris Fabry Live. Org. Click through to today's information. You'll see it right there. The Business of Ministry more straight ahead.

There's a lot of vision and a lot of hope, and you can hear it in Jeff's voice today. The business of ministry how to maximize God's Resources for Kingdom impact. It's our featured resource today at the website Chris Fabry Live Dawg Chris Fabry Live. Org. Click through to today's information. You'll see it right there. The Business of Ministry more straight ahead.

On Moody Radio.

On Moody Radio.

In the business of ministry. We're talking to Pastor Geoff Simmons today at the Radio Backyard Fence. I'm enjoying the conversation. You know, one of the things that you talk about here in the in the book is integrity. And I want to tell you real quick story and see I get your respond to this. Jeff. There a few years ago, this was back when we sold cassettes, you know, and had cassettes of the ministry conversations. And I got a letter that I opened one day, and you could tell from the handwriting, it was from an older listener who had scrawled handwriting and said, you know, I'd like to have this. The tape of this program that you did this was on a different program long ago. And inside the envelope was a cheque, and it was written out to Moody Radio, and it was dated and it was signed, but it was the the amount was left blank. And I thought, number one, wow, this person really trusts us. You know, that we're not going to put another number in there. But it also at the same time made me feel the weight of the weight of that trust. You know, this and there's nobody looking as I'm opening this and and seeing that, that there is this weight that you have that you want to handle what God has entrusted to you. And I think it was at the time it was like $6 for for a cassette that included mailing, you know. Um, but that, that just struck that stuck with me. I've always remembered that scrawled handwriting in the trust of someone on the other side. Talk about that. Yeah.

In the business of ministry. We're talking to Pastor Geoff Simmons today at the Radio Backyard Fence. I'm enjoying the conversation. You know, one of the things that you talk about here in the in the book is integrity. And I want to tell you real quick story and see I get your respond to this. Jeff. There a few years ago, this was back when we sold cassettes, you know, and had cassettes of the ministry conversations. And I got a letter that I opened one day, and you could tell from the handwriting, it was from an older listener who had scrawled handwriting and said, you know, I'd like to have this. The tape of this program that you did this was on a different program long ago. And inside the envelope was a cheque, and it was written out to Moody Radio, and it was dated and it was signed, but it was the the amount was left blank. And I thought, number one, wow, this person really trusts us. You know, that we're not going to put another number in there. But it also at the same time made me feel the weight of the weight of that trust. You know, this and there's nobody looking as I'm opening this and and seeing that, that there is this weight that you have that you want to handle what God has entrusted to you. And I think it was at the time it was like $6 for for a cassette that included mailing, you know. Um, but that, that just struck that stuck with me. I've always remembered that scrawled handwriting in the trust of someone on the other side. Talk about that. Yeah.

No, that that's amazing. And, Chris, because, you know, as God's people, it's really God's money. Right? And so if you're, uh, you know, pastoring or you're leading a ministry in any kind of capacity, if you're a layperson serving at church, I mean, it's God's money and the financial integrity and the financial stewardship is a big part of the reason I wrote this, because, you see that that doesn't happen out there in some organizations. And it's heartbreaking. I think people look at that and they are turned off from even having a relationship with God because of the example of some people they see. And so every one of us, you can't let money get a foothold of your heart. Jesus talked so much about that. You know where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. And we always have to say, it's my treasure in the world is my treasure in Christ, and my treasure is in Christ. He's going to provide for me. And so I want to be wise with the money I've given. But I don't want to worship the money, right? I'm not in this for the money at all. And and so being financially responsible, having integrity and character, you know, character is who you are when no one's watching. And so when you sat there and you took that check and you wrote down $6, man, you were living out your faith and, and and that's powerful. And then I think for every Christian leader God sees, God knows and he judges our hearts.

No, that that's amazing. And, Chris, because, you know, as God's people, it's really God's money. Right? And so if you're, uh, you know, pastoring or you're leading a ministry in any kind of capacity, if you're a layperson serving at church, I mean, it's God's money and the financial integrity and the financial stewardship is a big part of the reason I wrote this, because, you see that that doesn't happen out there in some organizations. And it's heartbreaking. I think people look at that and they are turned off from even having a relationship with God because of the example of some people they see. And so every one of us, you can't let money get a foothold of your heart. Jesus talked so much about that. You know where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. And we always have to say, it's my treasure in the world is my treasure in Christ, and my treasure is in Christ. He's going to provide for me. And so I want to be wise with the money I've given. But I don't want to worship the money, right? I'm not in this for the money at all. And and so being financially responsible, having integrity and character, you know, character is who you are when no one's watching. And so when you sat there and you took that check and you wrote down $6, man, you were living out your faith and, and and that's powerful. And then I think for every Christian leader God sees, God knows and he judges our hearts.

Okay, put this into a the book that you've written. Then, because we had a caller who was asking, you know, I'm writing a book and I, I don't want to focus on the earnings. I want to be faithful. Um, with this, I know I hope you sell a million copies. You know, it'd be a wonderful thing for you and for the publisher. But if that doesn't happen, is it not a success? How do you how do you judge that and the earnings that come from it?

Okay, put this into a the book that you've written. Then, because we had a caller who was asking, you know, I'm writing a book and I, I don't want to focus on the earnings. I want to be faithful. Um, with this, I know I hope you sell a million copies. You know, it'd be a wonderful thing for you and for the publisher. But if that doesn't happen, is it not a success? How do you how do you judge that and the earnings that come from it?

Yeah. I mean, I don't think it's a it's about money. Like money can't take a hold of your heart. Right. And so like I said earlier, right. It's about obedience and not success. I, I didn't need to write a book. It's not like, you know, I'm gonna make a lot of money on this book. Or if you sell a million copies, I mean, I want to give it all away. I would love to give it all to justice, Mercy International or the Rolling Hills or to, you know, Moody to people that are doing great work for the Kingdom. I think that's the beautiful part. If you're in business or you made a lot of money in different places, you have the opportunity to really fan the flame of the work that God's doing. And so taking that money like Barnabas, selling the field and laying the money at the apostle's feet, what an incredible privilege. I mean, we can't take any of this money with us anyway, right? You don't see a hearse pulling a U-Haul like the old thing says, you know? So, you know, there's a whole movement on Wall Street called Die With Zero. And you see, like Warren Buffett giving away half his wealth. And but the fact is, he's not taking the other half of the wealth with him either, you know? So it's all going to be used or by somebody. So we have the opportunity to appoint where that's going to go. You know, Paul's out of workers worth his wages. So there is time where, you know, if you're in ministry then you know, you have your needs met and those kind of things. But anything over that man, it ought to be going back into the kingdom. It ought to be just building up treasures in heaven. So not just investing in this world, but being good stewards of what God's entrusted to you.