If you knew your church had barriers blocking 25% of the people in your neighborhood, what would you do? The CDC reports one in four people in the U.S. lives with a disability. But many well-meaning attempts to welcome those with disabilities results in exclusion and isolation. What can you do to remove those barriers? Don't miss Chris Fabry Live.
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Welcome to our last Monday in October. Let's make it a good one. What do you say today at the radio backyard fence? Our topic looks like it is disabilities in the church. How do you welcome people with disabilities instead of keeping them out? By unintended barriers. But the more I discovered from today's featured resource from our guests, the more convinced I am that our guests want the church to be everything it was intended to be. And they believe it's not just making your building more accessible. The parking lot more accessible. It is a mindset. What is that mindset? You're going to hear the five step plan that might make a huge difference in your church. Straight ahead here on Chris Fabry live. Welcome, friend, and let me thank our team assembled. Ryan McConaughey is on vacation this week. In his stead is the one the only Pappy Papendick. Trish is our producer. Peter is answering your calls today. Before we get to the topic, last Tuesday, we aired a conversation with Carol Anderson. We recorded with her a week earlier than that, and I really wanted you to hear Carol's voice, her heart, because she knew that she was ending her earthly journey soon. Didn't know how soon, but I believe she had a few things that we needed to hear. And on Saturday morning, a couple of days ago, I got a call from her sister letting me know that Carol had passed away on Friday morning. So for those of you who are praying for her and who responded to what she had to say with encouragement, we sent those to her voicemails and and other things. Now the prayer is for Carol's family and her friends as they grieve, and they give thanks for her life. Thanks that she is no longer in the pain that she was in, and that she had gone through for a long time, but also the grief in the in the middle of the loss. And so if you didn't hear her conversation and you want to go back and listen to that, just go to the website Chris Fabry live. Org, we are enabled to bring you conversations like the one we had with Carol, the one we had last Friday with doctor Jean Goetz. What a voice of wisdom and the conversation you're about to hear today, because there are friends and partners who joined us and support the program with a gift. This is the last week we're offering a beautiful thank you. The hardcover copy of landscape of Hope by Heather Holdsworth. It's an illustrated journey through the Psalms, and we're a little behind this month. I'll be honest with you. If you could reach out today with a gift of any size, or if you want to become a monthly partner with us, easiest way is to go to the website Chris Fabry live.org. Fabry Chris Fabry live.org or call 38669532279. And thanks for your support of the radio backyard fence. If you knew that there were 25% of the people in your town who could not get to your church because of some barrier, what would you do? You'd you'd work real hard to remove that or help find a way to get around it. Right? What might be keeping your church from welcoming people with disabilities, which the CDC says is one out of every four people in the country. I want you to hear from two guests today who are co-authors of a new book titled One Body, One Spirit Disability and Community in the church. Jason Epps B. Jason Epps is a PhD resident in Old Testament at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. He serves as an adjunct instructor instructor at Midwestern Baptist and lives in Missouri. He has lived with cerebral palsy his whole life. He's creator of the five step plan that we're going to talk about today, which is the inspiration for this book. One Body, One Spirit. Jason, welcome to the program. How are you doing today?
Fantastic. It's great to be here.
And along with him is co-author Doctor Paul Pettit, who is president and founder of Dynamic Dads, an organization offering encouragement to fathers, former sportscaster and youth pastor. He serves currently at Dallas Theological Seminary as Director of Spiritual Formation. Paul, welcome to the program. How are you doing today?
Hey, Chris, great to be here. Thanks for having us on Chris Fabry Live.
Tell me your first meeting with Jason, because that really sets the stage for what we're going to talk about, right?
Yeah, exactly. It's really the story of a professor and a student. I'd seen Jason on campus a couple times in his power chair, but I was teaching preaching, and we heard this knock on the door a little bit late. You know, we'd already gone through the roster. We were already looking around. Hey, where's Jason Epps? And then a couple of guys went to the back door, opened up, and Jason rolled in in his power wheelchair. And I was really kind of surprised. I was nervous, you know, all the feelings someone may get when they're around, someone with a serious disability. And sure enough, you know, we have a stage in the class and we're all kind of thinking, how's Jason going to get up on the stage? We have a pulpit, a podium, and the podium is way over his head. And I really began to see the whole campus, the whole course, the seminary experience through Jason's eyes. So that was kind of our start of our friendship, and it just grew from there.
That's basically the first of the five steps is to see, to observe, to open your eyes to what is going on. So, Jason, you take that. When you first went into that classroom and you saw Doctor Pettit. What went through your mind?
Well, first off, my first thought is, how in the world am I going to get through all these big doors? You know, it's like I can't ram and jam my way in. I don't have my glorified body yet, so I can't, like, you know, mold through solid matter like Jesus did in the upper room. I know there's not a lot of biblical support for that, but hey, in the lack of evidence, I want to make my glorified body as cool as it possibly can be. Uh, so, um, that was nothing really detrimental. Went through my mind. I, I knew the potential possible barriers that would be there. I'd already gone through a preaching class at Moody Bible Institute, so I knew what to really expect. So it wasn't really that that surprised me. What surprised me was what? What Paul said in his first conversation of if any of you have any idea for a book, let me know. Bring it to me and we'll make it into a book. Because I had the idea for this book for years, I had when I was at Moody, I had a severe medical issue that caused me to take a medical withdrawal that caused me to drop all my classes. And it was through that that I realized how isolated I was, how alone I was, how how the fact in the in the cafeteria at Moody, like, I could get to the tables, but in general that everybody else would sit on a side that I couldn't get to. So I, I was in a room of people, but I was for all intents and purposes, practically alone. And I've been telling people for years about the ideas in this book that we're going to talk about. And everybody and brothers said, oh, that's a great idea, you should make that into a book. You should make that into a book. But I have no idea how to do that. I had no idea where to start, and Paul was the first and only one that that not only acknowledged that it was a good idea, but he actually carried it across the finish line. So I just want to express to to everyone that I am just deeply indebted to Paul, because without Paul, this this book would not be. Yes. And it's, it's it's just a testimony to how people with disabilities especially and I would say everyone needs outside help, people to come alongside them. We can't do this alone. We're not meant to do this alone.
Well we are. The church is poorer if we don't include you people with disabilities and and another other groups as well. But, Paul, before we take a break here, tell me when you say that, you know, you say that just about every year to the classes. If you have an idea for a book, you know, let's talk about it. Over the years, there have only been a handful of people who've who've raised their hand. Right?
Absolutely. I say write the first chapter. Come back to me. At least with the first chapter, we got to get something to get started with. And so many of them never come back. But Jason not only came back with the first chapter, he had a rough draft. He had a vision. I could tell he was passionate about the topic. So when I saw his rough draft and I saw those five step plans, I knew in my heart we were going to write a book together.
Yes.
And I knew when you sent me an email and I started looking over it and looking over the book, I knew that we needed to bring this to our listeners today because this is not just it's not about big churches or small churches or medium sized churches, or if your church meets in a school room or whatever this is. And it's not about the parking lot, and it's not about how many spaces you you develop for the one and the ramp and all of that. I mean, that's that's part of it. But as I mentioned a little earlier, it's the mindset thing. And we're going to talk about that straight ahead. One body, one spirit Disability and community in the Church by Paul Pettit and Jason Epps. Our guests today at the back fence. Just go to Chris Fabry live.org and you'll see a click through today's information. You'll see it right there. One body, one spirit. More with our guest straight ahead on Moody Radio. Jason Epps and Paul Pettit have written One Body, One Spirit disability, and community in the church. It's our featured resource today at Chris Fabry Live. Org and I'm going to open the lines for you today as well at (877) 548-3675. One of the things in the book, though, Jason, you and I did it here just a minute ago in the in the break, I said, I want to ask you about this because when you walk into a room and then I realized you don't walk into a room, you're in your wheelchair. And so, oops, I've made the mistake right there. I think that keeps a lot of people from engaging and interacting because they think, oh, I'm going to say the wrong thing. Talk about that.
So yeah, you're absolutely right. In fact, this was one thing that Paul had a lot of fear about as we, we talked about and and that's what made him such a great co-author, is he was new to all these ideas. So you have somebody like me where this concept was ruminating all my life, I don't really know this stuff, and that's why we originally wanted to call the book Getting Past uncomfortable because there's all this fear, this this sometimes legitimate fear, sometimes, um, uh, irrational fear, especially with, you know, today's cancel culture. You you say the wrong thing and people are in an uproar. But my thought about this is it's better to say something than nothing. Yes. You know, if if someone at least starts the conversation, you could say, and I don't. I'd prefer you to say it this way, but it's not a deal breaker. And honestly, that's where Christian charity comes in. But if you don't start and engage in the conversation, you're you're not getting anywhere. I always say don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, because the perfect isn't going to come until until Jesus comes. I mean, I'm not in my glorified body, thankfully. You know, my glorified body, whether it'll be when you know I die or the rapture occurs, will be completely perfected without pain, without any limitation. It's just it's just one of those things. So it I, I tell Paul all the time, a lot of this fear can just be overcome just by asking someone, having a legitimate dialogue like you would in, in anybody else. If you're afraid of being pegged as the one person to do this, be honest about it. Be honest about how much you're able to do what you're worried about. Ask them what their needs are, because oftentimes people with disabilities are prevented from talking about their day because people think they're complaining too much, when in reality they're just talking about their day. So I would just add as much as I would want to be separate from my disability. We're inseparable. I'm still a person. I'm still made in in the image of God. I still have that incalculable value. I'm I'm a child of God because I believe in Jesus Christ. So I have I have an immense amount of value. But that aside, my disability affects where I can go, what I can do. So it needs to be considered. So that's one of the first questions to ask. And nine times out of ten, the people that I've talked to with the disabilities love to tell people about their disability because one, they know everybody is wanting to ask the question. It's the it's the elephant in the room, and they're just having the the gumption to ask about it. And two, it's a big part of their life that they never get to talk about. They have to pretend that everything's normal, that everything's happy. Clappy, clappy, joy, joy and and there's no space for lament in our churches. Don't get me started on that.
Oh, I know I love where you're going. And that takes me to a place. Paul, as I was going through the book. It's one of the one of the main takeaways to me is we are not all we can be as a church because we, we have we have these barriers that are put up. Um, but I think there are a lot of churches that will hear about a book like this One body, One Spirit, disability and community in the church and immediately think, oh well, we have enough parking spaces, we have a ramp. We you know, our doors aren't too heavy and we have people to help. And. ET cetera, et cetera. And they're filling in the blank. They're checking off the boxes. Are we okay? You know, is there a space up front for people in a wheelchair rather than having them out back? ET cetera. ET cetera. You know, what do you do with a baptism? We can get to that. But. But what it seems like to me that you two are writing about and saying is much deeper than just checking off boxes. It's going to the inside. Do you really care? Talk about that Paul. Mhm.
Yeah. Jason and I developed a real friendship. It wasn't just a book project for me anymore. It was I like this guy. I'm seeing the world through his eyes. For example I have ADHD, I get sped up. I like to think about the future what's coming next. And sometimes I would say, Jason, we got to go. This bus is coming. It's late. And he would look at me and just say, Paul, oftentimes I find it's going to work out, you know, I mean, he lives in day to day circumstances, sometimes doctor's visits, medical visits, working on his PhD. So it's a mindset. I love the way you started our interview. This is a mindset, not just do we have a parking spot, But look at my friend over there. Can he hear the service? Well. Can he see? If not, how could I help? Uh, maybe. How about we have this person come up and give announcements? Oh, we wouldn't do that. They can't speak very well. Oh, really? We're going to eliminate someone from service in the body of Christ just because of a disability. Wouldn't it be better to include people, maybe even select someone on purpose with a disability if 1 in 5 families have a disability? 1 in 5 Americans have a disability. Our church bodies should reflect that reality more often. So it kind of put me, put me on a crusade to look at people through new eyes. Hey, how are you doing today? How can I help? Is there anything I could help you with today? And so just thinking about the heart of Father God is often for the brokenhearted. And that Jesus was always.
Translates to everybody. You know, in the church, your churches. And there's one there's a there's a bunch of stories in here, too, from people. One story from a mom. I think it's her perspective with a to say, a child who's disabled. And she said what they found was each church that they tried that the way that they were, their child was treated directly affected the rest of the church. It's like it wasn't. This was a microcosm. This was kind of a litmus test, the way that they're treated here. Are you just a problem? You know, you're just a person to solve your problem and then we move on. Or is there genuine care that that was reminiscent with with the rest of the congregation? Right, Paul?
Absolutely. It's a mindset that runs through the whole church. I oftentimes would see, Jason, maybe we're going to get in a van or something. And I think, man, I don't want to touch him in the wrong way. I don't want to break something. What if he has a medical issue? And he told me, sometimes, Paul, you might just stop and ask me, hey, do you need help getting in the van? Yes. And I remember stopping and going, yeah, yeah, that's a that's a much better way to ask it isn't it. Hey, by the way, do you need any do you need any help getting in the van.
Yeah that's great. Okay. So Jason, as I was going through the book and there's the we're going to get to the five step plan. But this scream to me and I ask you, this is part of the problem that we focus on the disability and what the person can't do or can do, and then try to fit them into some role that we have or we can think of rather than saying, okay, tell me what God has given you. How has God gifted you? And then looking for ways to utilize the gifts rather than force fit the person with the disability into some role? Talk about that.
I think that's partially there. The main problem is oftentimes you don't even force fit the person with the disability into the role. So I actually when I was at Moody, I went to a church for two years. I will not mention the name of the church. Um, and I had only served on two occasions at that church. One of them is because I basically guilted the person that was over that ministry to give me a shot. And I think part of it is because churches have a pay your dues mentality, because we want people to show that they're, uh, committed and they're buying into the church, which which in general is an understandable situation. The problem arises is when those ministries that are the ground entry for, um, accessibility or ground entry for service is things that a person with disability can't do. Like physically set up chairs, you know, things of that nature. Set out the food. I can't physically do that. So we're kind of stuck in a perpetual cycle of we're not noticed, and we have all this gifting. And, you know, lo and behold, it's like the unpardonable sin to actually proactively mention your gifting. You can't say you have the spiritual gift of teaching. How dare you? Uh, I've been I've been in churches most of my life. On the rare occasions when I've given been given the opportunity to teach, I've enjoyed it. Uh, that's what I'm going to school for, you know, that's why I'm getting my PhD is because it's generally required to teach in Christian higher education. So in my mind, there needs to be a complete paradigm shift in the way churches do service and to because a lot of churches do the spiritual gift inventory, but they leave it at that Instead, there needs to be a whole lot more discipleship than saying, okay, your spiritual gift inventory says this. Let's plug you in and a ministry like this so that you're actually using the gifts that the inventory says you have. Because oftentimes it's people serving in random ministries that get the, um, that get the most airtime, for example, children's ministry. And I love children's ministry, but that's that's the only one people think about. And that's the only ministry that advertising for Warm Bodies. There's there's none of this practically plugging in and slowly giving people more and more responsibility, you know, starting them off on a one by one relationship of instructing under the tutelage of somebody else and then giving them more and more responsibility. I think that would be much better. But that requires a whole lot more work and a whole lot more Intention, but one of the.
Um, sorry to to jump in there, but one of the. Things that you deal with in the book is, is the physical barriers. I mean, that's, that's there. And you need to deal with that and you need to look at that. But what you're discussing is more the internal, the mental, the really the vision that you can have for yourself or for another person who's dealing with a disability. And there are a lot of parents of of children with disabilities who are listening, who are going to churches and asking the question, is there a place for me here? Um, and I, Paul, I see a lot of hope with some of the stories about parents who have, you know, rather some difficult stories about what has happened to them. But it seems to me that the culture is changing. Would you agree with that?
Absolutely. I mean, if I've got someone in my family that has a disability, I'm probably going to be incredibly sensitive. I'm going to be on the lookout for that. What's the leadership mindset here? What are the people in the pews sitting next to me like, you know, I'm going to get a sense for, hey, this place has grace. This place is accommodating. This place is welcoming. So yeah, it's definitely changing. We have a place here in Dallas called Howdy Homemade. It's an ice cream place, and they've been hiring some young folks with down syndrome, and they're really fun place to visit. It's exciting. I mean, you feel like you're not in a hurry. It's more like I'm interacting with my server. So I think we're seeing a mind shift in our culture where we say, these folks have the image of God, these are image bearers. They're fully human. These folks are fully human. Why do I not get to know them? Why do I not share with them? So yeah, this is the heart of Father God. He's always for the suffering. He's always for the brokenhearted. He's always for the outcast.
Here's a quote from Jason in the book. For some with disabilities, including myself, a body free from pain and physical impairment is difficult to imagine, especially if our current state is the only body we've ever known. In my case, it is almost impossible for me to imagine being able to run, swim, wrestle, and so on. In fact, one thing I look forward to immensely is finally being able to kneel in front of God's throne. The fact that I am not currently able to kneel in prayer fills me with a twinge of sadness, but I remind myself this is only temporary. There is so much more to this book and it's our featured resource today. If you go to Chris Fabry live.org and click through today's information, you'll see the book by Jason Epps and Paul Pettitt, One Body, One Spirit disability and Community in the church. Just go to Chris Fabry live.org. I want you to hear the story of the baptism of Jason's baptism and what happened there. And then we're going to get into these five things that we're going to talk about the the different steps, the five step plan that you can take for yourself as well as your church. You can call this number (877) 548-3675. Would love to talk with you today at the radio backyard fence. This is Chris Fabry live. We'll get right back to the conversation on making the church all it can be. As we discover the added value people with disabilities can give to the church body. That is a concept I've heard the president and CEO of Carenet, Roland Warren, talk about, but in a little different way. Carenet is a pro abundant life organization. They protect the unborn, but they also minister to the pregnant woman, to the biological father and all those impacted by an unplanned pregnancy. Rollin makes the point that the unborn child is often seen as a net negative. You have this baby. Your life is going to be interrupted, maybe ruined. You'll never reach your goals. Your life's going to be harder. You want you need to make the easier choice. Quote unquote. But what if you didn't see the child as a negative? What if God had a plan for your good and for that baby's life? Click the green cabinet link at Chris Fabry live.org. You'll see more about the new book that Rollin wrote. The Alternative to Abortion Why We must be pro Abundant Life. And you'll see more about that ministry. Somebody you know is going to need the Ministry of Care net at some point, and you'll know how to get there if you click the green link at Chris Fabry Archive.org Chris Fabry live. Org. We're talking with Jason Epps and Paul Pettit, who have co-written One Body, One Spirit Disability and Community in the church. And I love their five step plan. They don't get they don't run right to the five steps. But since we only have a little bit of time here today, I want to get to some of that. So, Jason, why don't you outline, can you go through the five steps that you're talking about?
Sure. Notice, engage, research, incorporate and advocate. Notice, engage, research, incorporate and advocate. Again notice, engage, research, incorporate and advocate with the you're actually noticing someone. You're aware of your surroundings. You notice if somebody is separate off from the rest of the group with engage you're actually going down and you're you're sitting with the person. You're asking questions about their disability, about their likes, about their dislikes, getting to know them as a person. And with research, you're taking that information and you're either noticing as you're going the areas in the community that would be accessible and not, or you're proactively saying, you know what? I know? Jason, for example, loves, you know, classical music. I'm going to see if the opera house is accessible or how he could see. True story. The, um, Chicago Symphony Orchestra play in central, in the park by the beach. Um, so it's things of that nature that's active research versus passive research. Then in incorporate you go the person who I like to call the handler goes to the person with the disability, the asset and says, well, let me back up. Um, they go to the larger group and say, we know this person with a disability can do this activity, and they get buy in from the larger group, get the larger group to say yes. Then the person that's been building this friendship, the handler, comes in and says to the person with the disability, the asset, um, we, um, I had this planned. We we every people want to do it. I know you like this. I've thought of all these considerations. This, this, this and this. Would you like to do it now? That's a marketed mind shift from what is typically done and what was done to me when I was at Moody, where they basically said, um, you offer a suggestion and you offer a suggestion, and the larger group is forced to do it. So they're just doing this action to check off their proverbial Christian box. They're not doing it because they want to. They're not doing it because there's genuine friendship. They're doing it because they feel guilted into doing it. And then that just builds this emotional barrier for the person with a disability thinking that they're worthless, they're pointless, they're unloved. One of the main points of the five step plan is to help overcome a lot of this emotional baggage, and a lot of. Trust needs to have somebody else to help them to functionally do it. And finally, finally, there's the final step of advocate, where the friend is actually standing up for the person with the disability, mentioning, hey, we don't want to put that. We don't want to put the set piece here, because that'll block the accessible access to the auditorium. In a play that was supposed to be about people with disabilities. True story. And actually happened so ironically. But but I do want to make 11. overarching is and you made this throughout the show, but that having social help, having genuine friendship overcomes that. I can't tell you how many times I was able to do things that would be impossible. My baptism would have been impossible. The all the men in the church basically got together and lifted me into the tub to do it. I never actually thought I would be able to do it. Same with several of the churches that I went to with the Moody Men's Choir. They lifted me up God knows how many flights of stairs, and made it so that I could actually be in the choir loft, so. Wow. The thing is, your church could be accessed all physically accessible, but the person with the disability could be alone, feel alone, feel isolated, feel even worse because he sees everybody around them. Yes, but see, Jason.
That's where you can't tell. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say, call in here and there. They feel that isolation. They feel like they're the only one with whatever they're going through. And I believe the enemy attacks people. You know, the one who's isolated from the herd, often on the inside and exterior as well. So if if the enemy can get you to feel isolated, even if you're not, if you're part of the group, you're in the room, you know, even if he can get you to feel that isolation and foster that with everybody else in the room, then it it can make you feel even more isolated. That's one of the things I was going to bring up with you early on, which is when you first enter a room or you first go to a church or whatever the venue is. A lot of times you it. The problem is that there is this flurry of activity and people come around and say, oh, are we going to help Jason now? And what does that make you feel?
Well, let me back up a second. Oftentimes they don't even think, oh, let's help Jason now. I'm often practically ignored, invisible. It's even worse than you're painting it. Um, thankfully, it's it's not the case of the church I'm at now because they have a mindset of being aware of the people around them. Part of it is because the pastor has someone with a disability. That's why we want to get this book into the hands of everybody that we know. Because based on our research and based on my own personal experience, when you've had exposure to somebody with a disability, It shifts, like Paul was saying, your entire mindset and like, I want to keep hammering this point home. You don't have to be a rich church. The church that I'm going to is really small. They were, in fact, apologetic that they didn't have enough money for a door opener at the bathroom. But guess what? If you have people that are observing and people that you know are are noticing things and asking you, you don't need a door opener. So I always say, and I'm going to say this till, you know, Jesus comes home, that personal relationships and friendship trump this because with that you don't feel isolated. You don't. When oftentimes when I go into a new church, I, I feel alone, I feel excluded, I feel, you know, I go back to all the things. When growing up, I was given a patronizing service positions just to make other people feel good. but at the church that I'm going to now and thankfully the the previous church that I went to in Dallas, people genuinely care. You know, I was gone from, uh, my church this week because of the DTS celebration, and we've got calls from four different people saying, are you okay? Uh, and, and when I was, when I was in Chicago going to a church, I was out for eight weeks and nobody called. Nobody. Nobody from the church wondered how I was doing. And they're like, well, you should have reached out to the church that that's that's the standard mindset of a lot of churches. Well, you as the person with the disability, you need to be your own advocate. You need to put all this effort in. That's what we're constantly told. And by the time we get to the church, we're exhausted. We we.
We we're.
We're at our wits end. And we don't want to put any extra effort because whenever we have, it's backfired on us. You know, it showed that nobody's shown up for the groups that we've set up, that we've established. So why put in the extra effort? Why should I put in the extra effort to go to the, um, to go to the big retreat? If every day on Sunday you treat me like I'm invisible? It's like Jesus says he was faithful in the little things. Will be faithful with much. So it's the slow, it's the daily. It's the conversations that really help. And yes, it's a lot of work, but it's what Jesus did. So if you want to be like Jesus, do it.
And Paul, I'm sure that you're revisiting a lot of things that you've written in the book. It's titled One Body, One Spirit. I have some folks who want to talk with you on the phone. Let me take a quick break. We'll come back. We'll have our final segment with our guest today, Paul Pettit and Jason Epps, co-authors of One Body, One Spirit Disability, and Community in the church. Just go to Chris Fabry live. Org scroll down and go to the this the section for today's program. You'll see it right there. Chris Fabry live.org. More straight ahead on Moody Radio. I'm so glad you're hearing from Jason Epps and Paul Pettit today. They've written the book One Body, One Spirit Disability and Community in the church. And you're hearing this is not about, okay, you should feel guilty because your church doesn't have this, or the doors are too heavy or you don't do there's not there's not that spirit to this. There is. There's so much more. There's something you're missing. If there if your church community doesn't have, as it says, the CDC, 1 in 4 in this country, people have a disability. Why aren't there more in your church and my church? Trina is on the line in Georgia. Trina, why did you call today?
Hi, Chris. Um, I called because I'm disabled myself, and I'm helping the disabled. Goes beyond putting in ramps and making sure people have handicap access. Another thing that people can do is, um, they can, um, you know, being disabled, you can only have so much money a month and people can maybe step up and say, hey, I'll be a trust. I'll be a trustee for a special needs trust.
So the financial thing is, a is a big deal for you, right?
Yeah. And I also have cerebral palsy myself.
Interesting.
Paul, respond to that. What do you say to Trina?
Well, thanks for calling, Trina. Uh, it's exciting that you're listening and you're praying and you're following Jesus. And, you know, we may not get that physical healing that we long for now, but God gives grace. And we came up in our research for this book. We came up with a phrase we found temporarily able bodied. That's kind of a mouthful, but it's temporarily able bodied. And what does that mean? Well, the title of our book is One Body, One spirit. It's not two bodies, two spirits. It's not, well, you're disabled and you're not, or I'm able bodied and you're disabled. We're all human beings. We're all image bearers, and I'm temporarily able bodied. I could have a stroke next week. Chris Faber. You could get hit by a car next week, and you would be you would be disabled. So. And probably if the Lord's gracious. Chris Faber. You may live to be 95, 98 years old. And at that point you probably would be fairly disabled. You know, you might not walk very well. You might not hear very well. So we're all temporarily able bodied on our way to some probably form of disability. So it's in the body of Christ. We want to see everybody as one body, one spirit, everybody that comes in the doors of the church, everybody that we meet as a new friend. They are fully human, fully gifted, and we need to get to know them. We need to hear their story and become friends with them. So we're asking people to take the friendship challenge.
And it strikes me, Jason, that with your negative situations that you've dealt with in the past, you had to overcome some of those obstacles of even giving the church a chance. We had a caller here, Wendy, who said, I have a and now I have a disability. I'm new to it. How do I find the key to fitting it in in the church? I don't know how to fit in. What would you say, Jason?
Well, I would I would just say it's not really a matter of fitting it in. Oftentimes our disability gives us a unique perspective or an ability to not struggle with things that people who are able bodied struggle with. For instance, I have no problem trusting and relying on God because I have to trust people all the time, constantly. So really, it's just entering into this dialogue. And and that's why we're one of the things I want to mention is that the mindset behind this five steps is it's a bottom up approach. What do I mean by that? Everybody with a disability is different, has a different situation, has a has a different degree of physical limitations. So that's why shoving them all into one room in the disability ministry doesn't really work. You need to work with people one on one, figure out what they need. For instance, our previous caller, you know, needs help with figuring out financial technical situations with special needs trust. I know exactly what she's talking about because I had to do that years ago, but that's no longer a need for me. So that's why that the engaged step and advocate step is so important because everybody is different. And to be to treat them monolithic like, you know, oh, we have a disability ministry. Oh, we have an African-American ministry. Oh, we have a Mexican-American or what have you. It's just it's it's asinine and it's hurtful, especially with somebody like me who's completely cognitively there. And the vast majority of people that are in, quote unquote, disability ministries can't communicate. I'm bored out of my mind in disability ministry. And when people for the longest time immediately first saw me, they assumed I was mentally retarded. Uh, they don't hand out, uh, bas and biblical languages from Moody Bible Institute. They don't hand out th M's in Hebrew and Cognate studies from Dallas Theological Seminary. I mean, these are tough classes, tough professors. And they did not make it easier on me. Uh, that's one.
Of the things, Jason, that I, that I as I read the book, I was so it was like, this is it. The light went on. Um, the segmenting or, you know, you go over here is further isolation, which is just is exactly what has happened to you before. So the light bulb is going to go on for somebody who reads this one body, one spirit. I want Carrie to come in here before we end in Minnesota. Carrie, what did you want to say?
Hey, I wanted to say thanks. First of all, Chris, for having me on and Paul and Jason for writing. This is amazing. One of the things that the Lord put on my heart this year was to go back to school and for disability ministry, and that wasn't something that was actually even available a few years ago. Um, and I wanted to take the at first, I didn't want to take the challenge, and I kind of argued with God. I'm like, no, I don't want to do this. But I found that in my own church that there was a time that my son has down syndrome and autism. And one of the things that as he got older and grew, he seemed like he was growing out of finding a place in the church or where he belonged. And that was that was really hard for me being an active member of the church. And I'm like, well, where do we go from here? And I knew somewhere between there and the future there's a missing link. And I wasn't even not even sure what going back to school was going to mean for me. But then when these kinds of things come on the air and I get these little nuggets, that, okay, this is what the Lord is trying to say to you, you're going on the right path.
Well, and it sounds like your heart is is open to to what exactly what we're talking about here today. Carrie, thank you for calling in. We're right at the end of the program, but I want to tell you, Doctor Paul Pettit's been with us, as well as Jason Epps. Epps. They've written together one body, one spirit, disability and community in the church. Um, it is a it's a life giving resource. It's a book that will give you a lot of hope. It also will point out some of the things that we've talked about here today. There's a whole section of of pushbacks, you know, questions that people ask. Well, what about this and what about that? There's a whole section of things that people will say, well, you know, if you had prayed harder, you'd be healed from this, that type of thing. How do you respond to that? Um, so if you go to the website, you can find out more about it. Paul, thank you for being with us, Jason. Thank you. And keep doing what you're doing. Friends.
Thanks so much, Chris.
Go to the website.
Chris Fabry live. Org you'll see one body, one spirit, disability and community in the church. And if you're in church leadership of some sort, highly recommended not just for you but for others in the pew as well. Again, Chris Baby Live is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute. Thanks a lot for listening.