Pushkin.

Pushkin.

A couple of weeks before Christmas seventeen ninety nine, George Washington, the first and perhaps the greatest president of the United States, was enjoying retirement at his country estate, Mount Vernon.

A couple of weeks before Christmas seventeen ninety nine, George Washington, the first and perhaps the greatest president of the United States, was enjoying retirement at his country estate, Mount Vernon.

Had ridden around his farms and.

Had ridden around his farms and.

Come home late, cold and in wet clothes, but guests had come for dinner, and he hurried to entertain them without changing into something dry. The next day, he had a sore throat and a chesty cough. The day after that, his throat was so badly inflamed that he had trouble breathing. His family decided to take a fateful step. They summoned a doctor. I'm Tim Harford, and you're listening to Cautionary Tales. This is one of our cautionary conversations and today I'm well, I'm out numbered. My guests are Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds, the host of the hugely popular comedy history podcast The Doll Up. Hello, gentlemen, how are you hello?

Come home late, cold and in wet clothes, but guests had come for dinner, and he hurried to entertain them without changing into something dry. The next day, he had a sore throat and a chesty cough. The day after that, his throat was so badly inflamed that he had trouble breathing. His family decided to take a fateful step. They summoned a doctor. I'm Tim Harford, and you're listening to Cautionary Tales. This is one of our cautionary conversations and today I'm well, I'm out numbered. My guests are Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds, the host of the hugely popular comedy history podcast The Doll Up. Hello, gentlemen, how are you hello?

Hello?

Hello?

Two Americans? No less So it's it's gonna be what that's just gonna.

Two Americans? No less So it's it's gonna be what that's just gonna.

It's gonna be.

It's gonna be.

It's gonna be different. It's gonna be different. For caution Tales, listeners anyway. So we are going to be talking about a couple of stories that you covered on the Dollup, and one of those is the death of George Washington, and we'll talk about whatever else comes up. So thanks for joining me. And it's easy to see why they don't up is such a successful format, because what could be more hilarious than the painful and pointless death of the father of the nation.

It's gonna be different. It's gonna be different. For caution Tales, listeners anyway. So we are going to be talking about a couple of stories that you covered on the Dollup, and one of those is the death of George Washington, and we'll talk about whatever else comes up. So thanks for joining me. And it's easy to see why they don't up is such a successful format, because what could be more hilarious than the painful and pointless death of the father of the nation.

I agreed you'd be shocked at think. I think this all the time about how I'll like take a step back and be like, we're laughing about a murder like on our show, and I'll just be like, for the for forty five minutes straight, we've just been making jokes. But I'm like, two people are dead. But there are just so many absurd moments, and this one among them. Nobody knows how he died.

I agreed you'd be shocked at think. I think this all the time about how I'll like take a step back and be like, we're laughing about a murder like on our show, and I'll just be like, for the for forty five minutes straight, we've just been making jokes. But I'm like, two people are dead. But there are just so many absurd moments, and this one among them. Nobody knows how he died.

We're not taught it, and it really is the most American thing of all that we.

We're not taught it, and it really is the most American thing of all that we.

Like, why wouldn't you be taught this?

Like, why wouldn't you be taught this?

We killed them, Like.

We killed them, Like.

If you were teaching this in class, I would not be like leaving school to go smoke cigarettes. I'd be like, I'll do it at lunch. I want to see how this ends. This is exciting, it is extraordinary.

If you were teaching this in class, I would not be like leaving school to go smoke cigarettes. I'd be like, I'll do it at lunch. I want to see how this ends. This is exciting, it is extraordinary.

I was listening to the episode, episode one oh one, and I was just crying with laughter. I should have been crying because a great man is dying me listening, but there was just crying because.

I was listening to the episode, episode one oh one, and I was just crying with laughter. I should have been crying because a great man is dying me listening, but there was just crying because.

It was it was very funny.

It was it was very funny.

It was so we should probably run through what happens when the doctors show up. So I think it's it's doctor's yeah, doctor Dick, Dr Brown, Dr Crack.

It was so we should probably run through what happens when the doctors show up. So I think it's it's doctor's yeah, doctor Dick, Dr Brown, Dr Crack.

I mean it's not great.

I mean it's not great.

I mean it's just again. There are many times where I'm like, you done it, this is low hanging fruit, don't do it. But it's like, come on, this is I feel like Dave made those up. I feel like, if we look back, that's not the names of it.

I mean it's just again. There are many times where I'm like, you done it, this is low hanging fruit, don't do it. But it's like, come on, this is I feel like Dave made those up. I feel like, if we look back, that's not the names of it.

Of course, the first thing they do is they start taking blood from him, quite a lot of blood, right.

Of course, the first thing they do is they start taking blood from him, quite a lot of blood, right.

Yeah, every guy that came in, every doctor that came in, his first thing was well, we got to get blood out of this guy.

Yeah, every guy that came in, every doctor that came in, his first thing was well, we got to get blood out of this guy.

And so each one trained over a pint.

And so each one trained over a pint.

I was trying to figure out did they did they talk to each other about that? Or is that they all had to have their fingerprints on it.

I was trying to figure out did they did they talk to each other about that? Or is that they all had to have their fingerprints on it.

Yeah?

Yeah?

I don't think they were talking to each other. I think they were just like, Okay, well now I'm here. These other guys aren't doing a good job. I'm going to take care of this. And then they train his blood, which.

I don't think they were talking to each other. I think they were just like, Okay, well now I'm here. These other guys aren't doing a good job. I'm going to take care of this. And then they train his blood, which.

Is also amazing to be like that, three independent opinions of doctors when he was dying was we should get blood out of him, like if your engine won't turn over, and the mechanics like let's get the oil out.

Is also amazing to be like that, three independent opinions of doctors when he was dying was we should get blood out of him, like if your engine won't turn over, and the mechanics like let's get the oil out.

So in the Washington's lifetime before he dies, there is I think a Dutch doctor or maybe a Belgian doctor, a young Baptist van Helmont. I think it's kind of a bet with another doctor. He basically says, look, you will take a hundred people with the plague or whatever it is, and you treat them your way, and I'll take another hundred people with a plague and I'll treat them my way, and we'll see, we'll see who has the most funerals, which is like it's a pretty simple idea. But it turns out it doesn't catch on. He never does it. None of these guys do it. Otherwise they would have figured out that maybe draining I think it's half of his blood in the end, isn't it.

So in the Washington's lifetime before he dies, there is I think a Dutch doctor or maybe a Belgian doctor, a young Baptist van Helmont. I think it's kind of a bet with another doctor. He basically says, look, you will take a hundred people with the plague or whatever it is, and you treat them your way, and I'll take another hundred people with a plague and I'll treat them my way, and we'll see, we'll see who has the most funerals, which is like it's a pretty simple idea. But it turns out it doesn't catch on. He never does it. None of these guys do it. Otherwise they would have figured out that maybe draining I think it's half of his blood in the end, isn't it.

Yeah, it was most of Washington's blood. Yeah, I also like that bet. I think that's fun for people be like, why are you cutting his throat? Like I'm trying to win a bet? I'm really I'm behind, so I need to swing for the fences a little bit.

Yeah, it was most of Washington's blood. Yeah, I also like that bet. I think that's fun for people be like, why are you cutting his throat? Like I'm trying to win a bet? I'm really I'm behind, so I need to swing for the fences a little bit.

But yeah, simply like they didn't catch home.

But yeah, simply like they didn't catch home.

It sounds it sounds like he just had a really bad story throat. Yeah, he went out of the rain and cold, and yeah.

It sounds it sounds like he just had a really bad story throat. Yeah, he went out of the rain and cold, and yeah.

He got my aunt. My aunt had COVID, so we just drained her. She didn't make it.

He got my aunt. My aunt had COVID, so we just drained her. She didn't make it.

Later, this other guy comes along and says, oh, you idiots, he was too old. If if thirty, then yeah, sure take six punts of blood.

Later, this other guy comes along and says, oh, you idiots, he was too old. If if thirty, then yeah, sure take six punts of blood.

But that's the old guy.

But that's the old guy.

That was a mistake.

That was a mistake.

Yeah, well oops, what are we gonna do? Well, that's the end of him. He had a good run. Well, then there's the beetle guy too, right, tell me about the beetle dog. Yeah, we're not talking about Brian Epstein, go ahead, Dave.

Yeah, well oops, what are we gonna do? Well, that's the end of him. He had a good run. Well, then there's the beetle guy too, right, tell me about the beetle dog. Yeah, we're not talking about Brian Epstein, go ahead, Dave.

A guy came in I think it was the third doctor, and he was like, you know what he needs is uh, he needs a nice thick bed of beetles on his neck.

A guy came in I think it was the third doctor, and he was like, you know what he needs is uh, he needs a nice thick bed of beetles on his neck.

So and then he and then he whoops his pants so he's got no blood, a beard of beetles, and he's pooping his pants, and everyone's like, I think he's gonna make it. We should probably drain a little more blood just to be safe. It's so undignified.

So and then he and then he whoops his pants so he's got no blood, a beard of beetles, and he's pooping his pants, and everyone's like, I think he's gonna make it. We should probably drain a little more blood just to be safe. It's so undignified.

I think they took blood four times, right, I think it was four blood and they were taken like the third time was like thirty two ounces, Like they were really taking a lot of blood out of the sky.

I think they took blood four times, right, I think it was four blood and they were taken like the third time was like thirty two ounces, Like they were really taking a lot of blood out of the sky.

Oh, I'm sure, Like yeah, like peas coming out. They're like, why, I think he's out of blood.

Oh, I'm sure, Like yeah, like peas coming out. They're like, why, I think he's out of blood.

Somebody proposed to tracheotomy, which it sounds like that might actually have worked, Like if the guy can't breathe, yeah, that would be that would work.

Somebody proposed to tracheotomy, which it sounds like that might actually have worked, Like if the guy can't breathe, yeah, that would be that would work.

It's certainly the only procedure that made it to today. Yeah, so there's maybe something to it.

It's certainly the only procedure that made it to today. Yeah, so there's maybe something to it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

True.

True.

So I was looking into this, these strange kind of lotions and vegetable compounds, and someone that women used to take in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries for period pains and pre menstrual stress and all this kind of stuff, and the doctors used to think that these things were completely ridiculous. And one of the things that the marketers of these compounds said was basically, at least we won't kill you. The doctors will kill you, and we won't kill you. So the weird thing is they did notice that the patients kept dying, and this was a selling point for the alternative therapies, like non fatal.

So I was looking into this, these strange kind of lotions and vegetable compounds, and someone that women used to take in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries for period pains and pre menstrual stress and all this kind of stuff, and the doctors used to think that these things were completely ridiculous. And one of the things that the marketers of these compounds said was basically, at least we won't kill you. The doctors will kill you, and we won't kill you. So the weird thing is they did notice that the patients kept dying, and this was a selling point for the alternative therapies, like non fatal.

That's all I need. I just need to know it won't kill me, and I'll take it. That's the only thing I worry about.

That's all I need. I just need to know it won't kill me, and I'll take it. That's the only thing I worry about.

Well, it was also one thing we've we've talked, we have a lot of fun with is the simplicity of becoming a doctor was also you know, it was like you just needed to have a sign and then you're like open for business, you know, like a barber. But even they needed a license. You could just simply just say you're a doctor, and then you could just get blood out of George Washington.

Well, it was also one thing we've we've talked, we have a lot of fun with is the simplicity of becoming a doctor was also you know, it was like you just needed to have a sign and then you're like open for business, you know, like a barber. But even they needed a license. You could just simply just say you're a doctor, and then you could just get blood out of George Washington.

You needed a license to be a barber, but not to be a doctor.

You needed a license to be a barber, but not to be a doctor.

Yeah, like you manifested in the moment like I'm a doctor, and that was that.

Yeah, like you manifested in the moment like I'm a doctor, and that was that.

And then even when they made it, when they made licenses, they would set up a medical school and you go to the medical school and they just go, okay, you're a doctor.

And then even when they made it, when they made licenses, they would set up a medical school and you go to the medical school and they just go, okay, you're a doctor.

Like there was no yeah, no.

Like there was no yeah, no.

One was watching the medical school, So it was just for ages. It was just you just said it and that's what you were.

One was watching the medical school, So it was just for ages. It was just you just said it and that's what you were.

Presumably they needed to teach people how to drain a couple of pints of blood though.

Presumably they needed to teach people how to drain a couple of pints of blood though.

Yeah, yeah, that was probably like one of the things they're like, look, in case of an emergency, drain the blood. Get the blood. The blood is something the body doesn't want.

Yeah, yeah, that was probably like one of the things they're like, look, in case of an emergency, drain the blood. Get the blood. The blood is something the body doesn't want.

I mean that was for a long time.

I mean that was for a long time.

That was very common, and each doctor had his own blood letting device that he would bring with him to see a patient.

That was very common, and each doctor had his own blood letting device that he would bring with him to see a patient.

I think they favored something called the heroic style of medicine, and I think part of the problem was that doctors charged you a lot of money. So the idea is, if you're going to show up and you're going to charge somebody a lot of money, you better do something, you know, go bigger, get home, right, Don't just get a little bit of medicine or an aspirin or take my temperature and say call me in the morning.

I think they favored something called the heroic style of medicine, and I think part of the problem was that doctors charged you a lot of money. So the idea is, if you're going to show up and you're going to charge somebody a lot of money, you better do something, you know, go bigger, get home, right, Don't just get a little bit of medicine or an aspirin or take my temperature and say call me in the morning.

You've got to do something big.

You've got to do something big.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And if bed rest was not but you didn't pay for bed rest, you're like bullshit.

And if bed rest was not but you didn't pay for bed rest, you're like bullshit.

Right, And if the doctor comes diggs blood, you're like, oh, I feel different, I feel a little.

Right, And if the doctor comes diggs blood, you're like, oh, I feel different, I feel a little.

Woozy, something's happening.

Woozy, something's happening.

That was part of the attraction of the of the vegetable compound as well, because they had booze in or some of them had opium, some had booze, some had chili, some had all of them.

That was part of the attraction of the of the vegetable compound as well, because they had booze in or some of them had opium, some had booze, some had chili, some had all of them.

Ah.

Ah.

And so you know, if it's if it's basically as strong as sherry, you know, you will feel different and maybe different is better, and certainly it's better than having losing a pint of blood.

And so you know, if it's if it's basically as strong as sherry, you know, you will feel different and maybe different is better, and certainly it's better than having losing a pint of blood.

Yeah, but he could have done himself a lot of favors by changing his clothes. But had they just simply let him be, he had a much higher chance of survival.

Yeah, but he could have done himself a lot of favors by changing his clothes. But had they just simply let him be, he had a much higher chance of survival.

Yeah, but he was dead two days after, you know, going out and getting his clothes wet and then having dinner and wet clothes.

Yeah, but he was dead two days after, you know, going out and getting his clothes wet and then having dinner and wet clothes.

I mean, that's that's.

I mean, that's that's.

Pretty quick to die of a cold, right, Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, let's let's just flat out and say he didn't die of a cold.

Pretty quick to die of a cold, right, Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, let's let's just flat out and say he didn't die of a cold.

He died because he got a cold.

He died because he got a cold.

What do you think got him? And then do you think got him?

What do you think got him? And then do you think got him?

And then a bunch of guys came in and took the stuff that was supposed to be inside his body out of his body, and then.

And then a bunch of guys came in and took the stuff that was supposed to be inside his body out of his body, and then.

That well, that pretty much killed me.

That well, that pretty much killed me.

Yeah, you know you're a bad doctor when you're the beatlebeard guy and you history smiles upon you greatest.

Yeah, you know you're a bad doctor when you're the beatlebeard guy and you history smiles upon you greatest.

I remember, these are the guys treating Washington. So these are the top doctors.

I remember, these are the guys treating Washington. So these are the top doctors.

The best of the best, the best of the best. The guys are.

The best of the best, the best of the best. The guys are.

There was well, note they did they did turn away right like the one guy who had actually have an idea and they went, oh, no, that you've gone too far. The guy who thought maybe will resurrect him, Yeah, that was the thing.

There was well, note they did they did turn away right like the one guy who had actually have an idea and they went, oh, no, that you've gone too far. The guy who thought maybe will resurrect him, Yeah, that was the thing.

There's a guy who thought maybe we could do George Washington thriller.

There's a guy who thought maybe we could do George Washington thriller.

Yeah, of course, of course. There's there's three guys that kill him. And then there's the guy that came in and was.

Yeah, of course, of course. There's there's three guys that kill him. And then there's the guy that came in and was.

Like, let's let's do let's have a do over, let's bring him back.

Like, let's let's do let's have a do over, let's bring him back.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, you get a little fire on that guy, he'll come right.

Yeah, you get a little fire on that guy, he'll come right.

Back and his first words are going to be what were you doing? That was crazy? When those guys got rid of all my blood.

Back and his first words are going to be what were you doing? That was crazy? When those guys got rid of all my blood.

I couldn't believe the guy who wanted to bring him back from the dead actually made more sense than the than the first three, because he's like, we'll add some blood. We've got a lamb and said, lamb's blood, pump up his lungs, you know, give him the kiss of life, warm him up, let you go.

I couldn't believe the guy who wanted to bring him back from the dead actually made more sense than the than the first three, because he's like, we'll add some blood. We've got a lamb and said, lamb's blood, pump up his lungs, you know, give him the kiss of life, warm him up, let you go.

Yeah, I mean yeah, they're right, burser warmer, and they're.

Yeah, I mean yeah, they're right, burser warmer, and they're.

Like, get out of here alone.

Like, get out of here alone.

Yeah. Well, I wonder what they did with his blood, because it would have been really helpful if like the blood was nearby. But if that guy's pitching Lamb blood, it must they must have just been like, all right, pour that in the garden.

Yeah. Well, I wonder what they did with his blood, because it would have been really helpful if like the blood was nearby. But if that guy's pitching Lamb blood, it must they must have just been like, all right, pour that in the garden.

I'm at that at that time. It just went on the floor.

I'm at that at that time. It just went on the floor.

I would take and just tell me they didn't cook with it, That's all I want to know.

I would take and just tell me they didn't cook with it, That's all I want to know.

And then they made a blood everyone liking the Ravioli.

And then they made a blood everyone liking the Ravioli.

We're really channeling the spirit of the doll up here. I've got no idea what caution details listeners are making of all this, But the simple imposition of modern standards this on the seventeen hundreds is just very funny.

We're really channeling the spirit of the doll up here. I've got no idea what caution details listeners are making of all this, But the simple imposition of modern standards this on the seventeen hundreds is just very funny.

We have learned so much over that time that, I mean, the thoughts in their head are just absolutely bananas. So from our perspective, it's just everything they do is completely insane, Like you cannot believe what's happening.

We have learned so much over that time that, I mean, the thoughts in their head are just absolutely bananas. So from our perspective, it's just everything they do is completely insane, Like you cannot believe what's happening.

Most of what they think is just crazy and wrong. But then we do that with things that happened today too. I mean we always are going like you know, this is we are living in a doll up with this or that.

Most of what they think is just crazy and wrong. But then we do that with things that happened today too. I mean we always are going like you know, this is we are living in a doll up with this or that.

Yeah, look, we had a president he tells people to drink bleach when they got COVID.

Yeah, look, we had a president he tells people to drink bleach when they got COVID.

So that's the.

So that's the.

Part of me injected, part of me, sir injected. Yeah, first of all, I will not have you mock the greatest presidents in George lash still mind. You should go the same way in my opinion, and not a lot of people know. If you drained Trump, Nacho Cheese comes out of his veins.

Part of me injected, part of me, sir injected. Yeah, first of all, I will not have you mock the greatest presidents in George lash still mind. You should go the same way in my opinion, and not a lot of people know. If you drained Trump, Nacho Cheese comes out of his veins.

I was gonna ask, what was the moment in history when people stop being completely ridiculous?

I was gonna ask, what was the moment in history when people stop being completely ridiculous?

But yeah, it hasn't started.

But yeah, it hasn't started.

You can't wait to find it.

You can't wait to find it.

I can't wait to find it.

I can't wait to find it.

Won't be in our lifetimes.

Won't be in our lifetimes.

Caution, Detales is going to be back in a moment, and when we get back, we will answer the question if you get run over and killed by a car, can the driver sue you.

Caution, Detales is going to be back in a moment, and when we get back, we will answer the question if you get run over and killed by a car, can the driver sue you.

We're back.

We're back.

I'm talking to the creators of the dollop, namely the historic comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds. We've talked about Dollup one oh one, which is an episode, not a freshman course. Now let's talk about Dollop one nine three, which is all about what happened when people had the temerity to use this sets for driving cars, which was kind of a radical move, right, the idea that oh, these streets, we could just drive cars on them.

I'm talking to the creators of the dollop, namely the historic comedians Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds. We've talked about Dollup one oh one, which is an episode, not a freshman course. Now let's talk about Dollop one nine three, which is all about what happened when people had the temerity to use this sets for driving cars, which was kind of a radical move, right, the idea that oh, these streets, we could just drive cars on them.

This was I mean it was a ballsy move.

This was I mean it was a ballsy move.

At first, the streets were for horses and carriages and mostly hanging out and for kids to play kids, yeah, pigs and for kids to play in That was what streets were for. So all of a sudden there's things on them and people are like, no, that's not what goes here.

At first, the streets were for horses and carriages and mostly hanging out and for kids to play kids, yeah, pigs and for kids to play in That was what streets were for. So all of a sudden there's things on them and people are like, no, that's not what goes here.

Like in New York, you couldn't have the kids playing in Central Park, right because Central Park is for you know, it is for people of quality. You can't have the neighborhood kids coming and playing in the park. So they play on the street. Obviously, they play on the street. That's where that's what you do with kids. I mean, the early cars it didn't really matter because they do about four miles an hour. But then along comes the Model T and that does forty five, and that's that's going to sting if it just plows through your game of baseball or whatever.

Like in New York, you couldn't have the kids playing in Central Park, right because Central Park is for you know, it is for people of quality. You can't have the neighborhood kids coming and playing in the park. So they play on the street. Obviously, they play on the street. That's where that's what you do with kids. I mean, the early cars it didn't really matter because they do about four miles an hour. But then along comes the Model T and that does forty five, and that's that's going to sting if it just plows through your game of baseball or whatever.

Yeah, that's not great. This episode, I think more than most, really did blow my mind because you are just when you live in the world today, you just automatically go, yeah, well you walk here and you you know, you wait for the car and all that. But it would be like if we were to just like have to incorporate UFOs into our society, there would be a tremendous amount of growing pains and killing. And that's what there was. I mean, it is, it is chaos.

Yeah, that's not great. This episode, I think more than most, really did blow my mind because you are just when you live in the world today, you just automatically go, yeah, well you walk here and you you know, you wait for the car and all that. But it would be like if we were to just like have to incorporate UFOs into our society, there would be a tremendous amount of growing pains and killing. And that's what there was. I mean, it is, it is chaos.

Two thirds of the deaths in major cities would just in New York times, cars just running over kids.

Two thirds of the deaths in major cities would just in New York times, cars just running over kids.

Yeah, and for like it was like fifteen years, no one was like slow down. It just it just went like you just drove as fast as you could wherever you could your car.

Yeah, and for like it was like fifteen years, no one was like slow down. It just it just went like you just drove as fast as you could wherever you could your car.

Cars rolled over all the time. It is called turtling.

Cars rolled over all the time. It is called turtling.

Yeah, I mean, people just didn't they didn't know what to do about cars. They didn't know how to drive cars. I've got this driver training bulletin Sportsmanlike Driving, which is a great title for like how to drive sportsman Like Driving, which aims to explain to drivers why if they if they go round a corner, it really fast, they're gonna flip and it may would may not be a good idea and they just didn't know.

Yeah, I mean, people just didn't they didn't know what to do about cars. They didn't know how to drive cars. I've got this driver training bulletin Sportsmanlike Driving, which is a great title for like how to drive sportsman Like Driving, which aims to explain to drivers why if they if they go round a corner, it really fast, they're gonna flip and it may would may not be a good idea and they just didn't know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we even get into it in the episode of like, well how did they not know that too fast was and turning? Like they had other things like but they couldn't process that connection. Surely they'd seen a carriage overturn or or other things flip, but or even a person. But to them, they were like, no, no, that should be fine, but you can't. You really can't put yourself in their headspace before turning was something you had to really pay attention.

I think we even get into it in the episode of like, well how did they not know that too fast was and turning? Like they had other things like but they couldn't process that connection. Surely they'd seen a carriage overturn or or other things flip, but or even a person. But to them, they were like, no, no, that should be fine, but you can't. You really can't put yourself in their headspace before turning was something you had to really pay attention.

And I guess you don't have You don't have this whole infrastructure like driving licenses and driving instructors, and you just bought a car and you're rich because you must speak because you've got a car, and you go for it. You find out the hard way, or more likely just like eleven Street urchins find out the hard way, whereas you just drive through.

And I guess you don't have You don't have this whole infrastructure like driving licenses and driving instructors, and you just bought a car and you're rich because you must speak because you've got a car, and you go for it. You find out the hard way, or more likely just like eleven Street urchins find out the hard way, whereas you just drive through.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

You go home at the end of your driving, you just you hose off the children's blood and put your car in the garage.

You go home at the end of your driving, you just you hose off the children's blood and put your car in the garage.

It always comes down to blood. It's all about blood.

It always comes down to blood. It's all about blood.

Yeah, Well, I mean there's quite a lot of that in cautionary tales as well, I have to say. But this turn though, this moment where society is trying to wrestle with this, and it's partly just an argument over well, who deserves to be in the streets, Like who do the streets belong to? And whose fault is it? If a car drives into a kid or into any pedestrian for a while, it's obviously the driver's fault. And then there's this kind of amazing piece of public relations jiu jitsu that the auto lobby managed to achieve and manage to make it seem like, oh no, no, it's actually it's you get hit by a car, that's your fault.

Yeah, Well, I mean there's quite a lot of that in cautionary tales as well, I have to say. But this turn though, this moment where society is trying to wrestle with this, and it's partly just an argument over well, who deserves to be in the streets, Like who do the streets belong to? And whose fault is it? If a car drives into a kid or into any pedestrian for a while, it's obviously the driver's fault. And then there's this kind of amazing piece of public relations jiu jitsu that the auto lobby managed to achieve and manage to make it seem like, oh no, no, it's actually it's you get hit by a car, that's your fault.

The car is not to blame.

The car is not to blame.

Yeah, yeah, well there's no It turns out it turns out there's no profit in having children play in the street, but there is profit in selling cars and tires and gas. And so they did it really fast. They like this battle year. I mean this battle was going on for years.

Yeah, yeah, well there's no It turns out it turns out there's no profit in having children play in the street, but there is profit in selling cars and tires and gas. And so they did it really fast. They like this battle year. I mean this battle was going on for years.

Years.

Years.

I mean like twenty years or something or more. I can't remember exactly how many, but it's like twenty years of kids getting killed and people getting killed in the streets and they're having parades of like, you know, women with a little star on their shirt walking on the street that signified their child that died.

I mean like twenty years or something or more. I can't remember exactly how many, but it's like twenty years of kids getting killed and people getting killed in the streets and they're having parades of like, you know, women with a little star on their shirt walking on the street that signified their child that died.

And and they're.

And and they're.

They're in the street, in the street, yes.

They're in the street, in the street, yes.

And they're they're they're they're they're towing cars that have been in car accidents. Like so they're just showing all this stuff. It's going on for years, this publicity, and then the car companies and the tire companies, gas companies get together and they immediately just flip the narrative. And I believe correct the biggest thing that flipped it was walking. They came up with the term jaywalking because jay meant like you country bumpkin, you you dumb hick. And so they started calling people who walked in the street jaywalkers, and it was highly offensive and they started basically.

And they're they're they're they're they're towing cars that have been in car accidents. Like so they're just showing all this stuff. It's going on for years, this publicity, and then the car companies and the tire companies, gas companies get together and they immediately just flip the narrative. And I believe correct the biggest thing that flipped it was walking. They came up with the term jaywalking because jay meant like you country bumpkin, you you dumb hick. And so they started calling people who walked in the street jaywalkers, and it was highly offensive and they started basically.

Shaming people who were in the street.

Shaming people who were in the street.

It's an incredible move. So it's like only somebody who'd never seen a car before would Only somebody from a really rural area only used to horses. Only an idiot like that would get themselves killed by a car. And if you get killed by a car, you should just be embarrassed.

It's an incredible move. So it's like only somebody who'd never seen a car before would Only somebody from a really rural area only used to horses. Only an idiot like that would get themselves killed by a car. And if you get killed by a car, you should just be embarrassed.

Yeah, all those all those little kiddie bumpkins. Just this five year old. There's five year old hay seed.

Yeah, all those all those little kiddie bumpkins. Just this five year old. There's five year old hay seed.

It's it's amazing. It is amazing.

It's it's amazing. It is amazing.

Also, there's that phase where jaywalkers. Then that then the people just went with like jay drivers and they were trying to call people jay drivers for a while, and that was just sort of like, yeah, it wasn't as good. You know, people are like that, come on, come up with something better. They're like a day driver. Come on, everybody, he's a jay driver.

Also, there's that phase where jaywalkers. Then that then the people just went with like jay drivers and they were trying to call people jay drivers for a while, and that was just sort of like, yeah, it wasn't as good. You know, people are like that, come on, come up with something better. They're like a day driver. Come on, everybody, he's a jay driver.

Get out here.

Get out here.

My family's been killed.

My family's been killed.

To me, this is the greatest example of any dollar we've done about how stubborn we are. Kids getting mowed down for twenty years in the street. Like after two years, you should have been like, Okay, let's just get off the street. It's not working, but I.

To me, this is the greatest example of any dollar we've done about how stubborn we are. Kids getting mowed down for twenty years in the street. Like after two years, you should have been like, Okay, let's just get off the street. It's not working, but I.

Need to do something about the demanding thing.

Need to do something about the demanding thing.

But no, yeah, yeah, they just demanded to be on the street.

But no, yeah, yeah, they just demanded to be on the street.

And you know, at some point you go, this is that we're losing this battle because there those are cars and we're people, so we should get off the street.

And you know, at some point you go, this is that we're losing this battle because there those are cars and we're people, so we should get off the street.

But they just hung in there for years getting killed.

But they just hung in there for years getting killed.

I was really.

I was really.

Struck by a recent episode of the podcast ninety nine Percent Invisible about traffic. In Japan, you're not allowed to drive your children to school, and oh, I mean I think this maybe just is in Tokyo, but you can't drive your children to school. And it's like, well, why can't you drive your children to school? And the answer is, well, because lots of children are walking to school and if you drive your children to school, that's a hazard. And it's just a oh, yeah, that makes sense. But it's just a totally different way of looking at things. When you look back at the United States in the early nineteen hundreds, you realize, oh, it could have gone this way, but it didn't.

Struck by a recent episode of the podcast ninety nine Percent Invisible about traffic. In Japan, you're not allowed to drive your children to school, and oh, I mean I think this maybe just is in Tokyo, but you can't drive your children to school. And it's like, well, why can't you drive your children to school? And the answer is, well, because lots of children are walking to school and if you drive your children to school, that's a hazard. And it's just a oh, yeah, that makes sense. But it's just a totally different way of looking at things. When you look back at the United States in the early nineteen hundreds, you realize, oh, it could have gone this way, but it didn't.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, we built our entire society around cars essentially starting at that point, which I don't know how many other countries have done to the extent that we have the urban sprawl and the highway system.

I mean, we built our entire society around cars essentially starting at that point, which I don't know how many other countries have done to the extent that we have the urban sprawl and the highway system.

And all that. So we definitely did that.

And all that. So we definitely did that.

The other thing that I think goes to your point of how much things could have gone differently is Ford was building electric cars.

The other thing that I think goes to your point of how much things could have gone differently is Ford was building electric cars.

Yeah, but he was in business with Edison.

Yeah, but he was in business with Edison.

Edison was kind of bad at inventions, and he was craking out really crappy batteries, So all the batteries he sent to Ford were terrible and didn't work, and so Ford, instead of trying to find new battery companies he was he was in business, Edison said, okay, we won't do the electric cars.

Edison was kind of bad at inventions, and he was craking out really crappy batteries, So all the batteries he sent to Ford were terrible and didn't work, and so Ford, instead of trying to find new battery companies he was he was in business, Edison said, okay, we won't do the electric cars.

Batteries were bad then, or it was specifically Edison's batteries.

Batteries were bad then, or it was specifically Edison's batteries.

Specifically Edison's batteries were bad, and so that's why.

Specifically Edison's batteries were bad, and so that's why.

He called them batteries.

He called them batteries.

The fact that there could have been electric cars, well, that there were electric cars one hundred and twenty years ago, and that that maybe that whole thing could have taken a different turn, is I think mind blowing.

The fact that there could have been electric cars, well, that there were electric cars one hundred and twenty years ago, and that that maybe that whole thing could have taken a different turn, is I think mind blowing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One of our most popular episodes of cautioning tales was called The False Dawn of the Electric Car, and it was about this guy called Clive Sinclair, who was a British very successful inventor, slightly odd guy, having made a load of money in calculators and then a load of money in personal computers in the nineteen eighties. He then lost my most of his money trying to make this electric car. But his vision for the electric car is I won't start with a car, I'll start with something smaller.

One of our most popular episodes of cautioning tales was called The False Dawn of the Electric Car, and it was about this guy called Clive Sinclair, who was a British very successful inventor, slightly odd guy, having made a load of money in calculators and then a load of money in personal computers in the nineteen eighties. He then lost my most of his money trying to make this electric car. But his vision for the electric car is I won't start with a car, I'll start with something smaller.

So he made this thing.

So he made this thing.

It was kind of like it was like riding around in a giant white stiletto. That's the kind of vibe it had, and it did about.

It was kind of like it was like riding around in a giant white stiletto. That's the kind of vibe it had, and it did about.

Fifties like that.

Fifties like that.

He later became a professional poker player and married a stripper. So I mean, was it a call down to another stripper? I don't want to get it wrong, but he was a you know, he was an interesting guy. He was not a conventional geek. When I looked at this, I couldn't help but think did he just get the timing wrong? Because Elon Musk tweeted after he died about how much he loved Clive Sinclair's first computer and how like Elon Musk had grown up using this computer that Clive Sinclair had had created. And you think, what Elon Musk is like one of the richest guys on the planet. Because of his investment in Tesla, the electric car company, Clives and Clai lost all his money trying to make this electric car. Did he just get the timing wrong? Or was it something else?

He later became a professional poker player and married a stripper. So I mean, was it a call down to another stripper? I don't want to get it wrong, but he was a you know, he was an interesting guy. He was not a conventional geek. When I looked at this, I couldn't help but think did he just get the timing wrong? Because Elon Musk tweeted after he died about how much he loved Clive Sinclair's first computer and how like Elon Musk had grown up using this computer that Clive Sinclair had had created. And you think, what Elon Musk is like one of the richest guys on the planet. Because of his investment in Tesla, the electric car company, Clives and Clai lost all his money trying to make this electric car. Did he just get the timing wrong? Or was it something else?

Could it?

Could it?

Could it have worked if only he had kind of made something that didn't look like a goofy shoe.

Could it have worked if only he had kind of made something that didn't look like a goofy shoe.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Well, the I think the biggest problem for the electric car in Edison's and Ford's time, and probably Saint Clair's time is the infrastructure of not being able to plug in everywhere and charge your car. That's always the biggest thing holding it back. I think if Ford had wanted to, if Ford had gone into the electric car and kept going with it, even you know, moving away from Edison's batteries, he would have been the guy, because of his power and wealth, who would have created a system of you know, stations to plug in your car, because that's what Musk did immediately. He knew immediately, well there needs to be infrastructure out there to plug in your car. That always seemed to me to be the big thing holding it back.

Well, the I think the biggest problem for the electric car in Edison's and Ford's time, and probably Saint Clair's time is the infrastructure of not being able to plug in everywhere and charge your car. That's always the biggest thing holding it back. I think if Ford had wanted to, if Ford had gone into the electric car and kept going with it, even you know, moving away from Edison's batteries, he would have been the guy, because of his power and wealth, who would have created a system of you know, stations to plug in your car, because that's what Musk did immediately. He knew immediately, well there needs to be infrastructure out there to plug in your car. That always seemed to me to be the big thing holding it back.

And you still think Edison was it was particularly about inventions.

And you still think Edison was it was particularly about inventions.

I mean, you know, if you if you put Tesla against Edison, Yeah.

I mean, you know, if you if you put Tesla against Edison, Yeah.

Edison was a real bad dude. He was.

Edison was a real bad dude. He was.

He was more about you know, crushing other people and you know, taking what they had than.

He was more about you know, crushing other people and you know, taking what they had than.

Anything else.

Anything else.

He'd thrive today.

He'd thrive today.

Send your Tesla Edison fanboy mail to.

Send your Tesla Edison fanboy mail to.

No No, just Dave.

No No, just Dave.

I didn't say anything, guys, it's been an absolute pleasure having you be part of Caution Tales. Thank you so much. Where can people find the doll up? As if they haven't already found the Dollup.

I didn't say anything, guys, it's been an absolute pleasure having you be part of Caution Tales. Thank you so much. Where can people find the doll up? As if they haven't already found the Dollup.

Yeah, you can listen to the doll Up. We're on All Things Comedy Network or really, like we always say, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Yeah, you can listen to the doll Up. We're on All Things Comedy Network or really, like we always say, wherever you listen to podcasts.

So in the DALP feed we have started a new podcast which you were on, called The Pastimes, which is similar to The doll Up, in which we I pick a newspaper and we just read through it with a guest from any time, from like the sixteen hundred up to now, old.

So in the DALP feed we have started a new podcast which you were on, called The Pastimes, which is similar to The doll Up, in which we I pick a newspaper and we just read through it with a guest from any time, from like the sixteen hundred up to now, old.

Newspapers of material and subject matter. I discovered it's super weird every time. Somehow they're very weird.

Newspapers of material and subject matter. I discovered it's super weird every time. Somehow they're very weird.

Gareth Dave, thank you very much, Thank.

Gareth Dave, thank you very much, Thank.

You, Thank you, Tim a pleasure and now Viva George Washington.

You, Thank you, Tim a pleasure and now Viva George Washington.

If Only, If Only Cautionary Tales is written by me, Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. It's produced by Alice Fines with support from Marilyn Rust. The sound design and original music is the work of Pascal Wise. Sarah Nix edited the scripts. It features the voice talents of Ben Crowe, Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Jamma Saunders, and Rufus Wright.

If Only, If Only Cautionary Tales is written by me, Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. It's produced by Alice Fines with support from Marilyn Rust. The sound design and original music is the work of Pascal Wise. Sarah Nix edited the scripts. It features the voice talents of Ben Crowe, Melanie Guttridge, Stella Harford, Jamma Saunders, and Rufus Wright.

The show also.

The show also.

Wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilley, Greta Cohne, Betel Mollard, John Schnaz, Eric's handler, Carrie Brody, and Christina Sullivan. Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at Wardoor Studios in London by Tom Berry. If you like the show, please remember to share, rate and review, tell your friends and if you want to hear the show ad free. Sign up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot Fm, slash plus

Wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilley, Greta Cohne, Betel Mollard, John Schnaz, Eric's handler, Carrie Brody, and Christina Sullivan. Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. It's recorded at Wardoor Studios in London by Tom Berry. If you like the show, please remember to share, rate and review, tell your friends and if you want to hear the show ad free. Sign up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple Podcasts or at pushkin dot Fm, slash plus