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Caregiver SOS

Hosts: Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial, and their guests talk about Caregiving and how to best cope with the stresses associated with it. Learn about "Caregiver SOS" and the "Teleconnection Hotline" programs.

Hosts: Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial, and their guests talk about Caregiving and how to best cope with the stresses associated with it. Learn about "Caregiver SOS" and the "Teleconnection Hotline" programs.

Sunday March 18th 2018 - with Ron Aaron, Carol Zernial, and guest Carol Bradley Bursack of Minding Our Elders

In this episode of Caregiver SOS On Air, hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial are joined by sociologist, author, and podcast creator Dr. Mindy Fried. Drawing from her personal experience caring for her late father, Manny Fried, Dr. Fried shares profound insights on navigating the final chapters of aging, the complexities of family care dynamics, and the broader systemic challenges facing the caregiving workforce.

Key Topics Discussed


A Daughter’s Caregiving Journey: Dr. Fried shares the emotional and powerful experience of caring for her 97-year-old father—a former labor organizer and playwright—as he transitioned into an assisted living community after a fall.


Bridging Generations and Personalities: The discussion explores the hurdles of helping an independent, intellectually minded senior adapt to institutional living, and how a local newspaper feature helped shift his perspective on his community.


Systemic Labor Issues in Care: Leveraging her background in sociology and social work, Dr. Fried examines the direct impact of low wages and labor shortages on direct care workers, advocating for greater investment in essential caregivers and nonprofit care facilities.


The Shape of Care: Dr. Fried introduces her own caregiving podcast, The Shape of Care, discussing its origins, the emotional trajectories of spousal caregivers, and the importance of breaking caregiver isolation.


Policy and Support Systems: The conversation touches on critical structural gaps—including common misconceptions about Medicare covering long-term care—and highlights vital resources like support groups, state-funded models, and the PACE program.

Key Takeaways


Grieving as You Go: Caring for a loved one through advanced health declines is a profound process of ongoing emotional adaptation and being fully present in their final chapter.


The Power of Community & Connection: Caregiving is often an isolated experience; creating and joining support networks is essential for sharing options, understanding what to expect, and finding mutual encouragement.


Elevating Care Workers: The quality of institutional care is inextricably linked to how direct care workers are compensated and supported, making workforce advocacy a crucial priority for the future of aging.

About Dr. Fried

Mindy Fried, M.S.W., Ph.D. is a sociologist with 30 years of experience conducting research, teaching, and conducting policy analysis on organizational and workplace issues. As Co-Principal of Arbor Consulting Partners, she worked collaboratively with organizations for over 25 years, to help them build their capacity and strengthen their programs and policies. Mindy produced an award-winning podcast about caregiving called The Shape of Care, which won a Public Engagement award from the global organization, The Carework Network, a group of care researchers and advocates. She is also the Co-Producer and Host of Next Chapters, a podcast about growing older for women, created in collaboration with Our Bodies Ourselves, a global resource on health and sexuality. As Direction of Hoopla Productions, a small nonprofit organization that produced arts, Mindy produced the film, Open Your Heart:  Immigrant Stories from Boston and Beyond, which was selected and screened at film festivals and in numerous local screenings. Mindy has published several books, including Caring for Red: A Daughter’s Memoir (Vanderbilt University Press, July, 2016), and Taking Time: Parental Leave Policy and Corporate Culture (Temple University Press, 1998).

Today, Dr. Fried brings together her professional expertise and her personal experience as a daughter and caregiver to help us better understand the realities of aging, caregiving, family, and finding support.

Hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial, and their guests talk about Caregiving and how to best cope with the stresses associated with it. Learn about "Caregiver SOS" and the "Teleconnection Hotline" programs.

Caregiver SOS On Air is a presentation of the WellMed Charitable Foundation. For more resources, tips, and past episodes, visit caregiversos.org or email your questions to radio@wellmed.net.

In this episode of Caregiver SOS On Air, hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial are joined by sociologist, author, and podcast creator Dr. Mindy Fried. Drawing from her personal experience caring for her late father, Manny Fried, Dr. Fried shares profound insights on navigating the final chapters of aging, the complexities of family care dynamics, and the broader systemic challenges facing the caregiving workforce.
Key Topics Discussed
<ul data-path-to-node="5">
<li>
A Daughter&rsquo;s Caregiving Journey: Dr. Fried shares the emotional and powerful experience of caring for her 97-year-old father&mdash;a former labor organizer and playwright&mdash;as he transitioned into an assisted living community after a fall.
</li>
<li>
Bridging Generations and Personalities: The discussion explores the hurdles of helping an independent, intellectually minded senior adapt to institutional living, and how a local newspaper feature helped shift his perspective on his community.
</li>
<li>
Systemic Labor Issues in Care: Leveraging her background in sociology and social work, Dr. Fried examines the direct impact of low wages and labor shortages on direct care workers, advocating for greater investment in essential caregivers and nonprofit care facilities.
</li>
<li>
The Shape of Care: Dr. Fried introduces her own caregiving podcast, The Shape of Care, discussing its origins, the emotional trajectories of spousal caregivers, and the importance of breaking caregiver isolation.
</li>
<li>
Policy and Support Systems: The conversation touches on critical structural gaps&mdash;including common misconceptions about Medicare covering long-term care&mdash;and highlights vital resources like support groups, state-funded models, and the PACE program.
</li>
</ul>
Key Takeaways
<ul data-path-to-node="7">
<li>
Grieving as You Go: Caring for a loved one through advanced health declines is a profound process of ongoing emotional adaptation and being fully present in their final chapter.
</li>
<li>
The Power of Community &amp; Connection: Caregiving is often an isolated experience; creating and joining support networks is essential for sharing options, understanding what to expect, and finding mutual encouragement.
</li>
<li>
Elevating Care Workers: The quality of institutional care is inextricably linked to how direct care workers are compensated and supported, making workforce advocacy a crucial priority for the future of aging.
</li>
</ul>
About Dr. Fried
Mindy Fried, M.S.W., Ph.D. is a sociologist with 30 years of experience conducting research, teaching, and conducting policy analysis on organizational and workplace issues. As Co-Principal of <a href="http://www.arborcp.com/about-us/www.arborcp.com">Arbor Consulting Partners</a>, she worked collaboratively with organizations for over 25 years, to help them build their capacity and strengthen their programs and policies. Mindy produced an award-winning podcast about caregiving called <a href="https://theshapeofcare.org/">The Shape of Care</a>, which won a Public Engagement award from the global organization, The Carework Network, a group of care researchers and advocates. She is also the Co-Producer and Host of <a href="https://ourbodiesourselves.org/next-chapters">Next Chapters</a>, a podcast about growing older for women, created in collaboration with Our Bodies Ourselves, a global resource on health and sexuality. As Direction of <a href="https://www.hooplaproductions.org/">Hoopla Productions</a>, a small nonprofit organization that produced arts, Mindy produced the film, <a href="https://www.hooplaproductions.org/open-your-heart-film/">Open Your Heart:&nbsp; Immigrant Stories from Boston and Beyond</a>, which was selected and screened at film festivals and in numerous local screenings. Mindy has published several books, including <a href="http://www.vanderbilt.edu/university-press/book/9780826521163">Caring for Red: A Daughter&rsquo;s Memoir </a>(Vanderbilt University Press, July, 2016), and <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Taking-Time-Women-Political-Economy/dp/1566396476">Taking Time: Parental Leave Policy and Corporate Culture</a> (Temple University Press, 1998).
Today, Dr. Fried brings together her professional expertise and her personal experience as a daughter and caregiver to help us better understand the realities of aging, caregiving, family, and finding support.
Hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial, and their guests talk about Caregiving and how to best cope with the stresses associated with it. Learn about "Caregiver SOS" and the "Teleconnection Hotline" programs.
Caregiver SOS On Air is a presentation of the WellMed Charitable Foundation. For more resources, tips, and past episodes, visit caregiversos.org or email your questions to radio@wellmed.net.

Life, Loss, & Labor: A Sociologist's Journey Caring for Her Dad | Dr. Mindy Fried

In this episode of Caregiver SOS On Air, hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial sit down with Jackie Bresner, Director of Therapy at Home Care Dimensions, to unpack how families and caregivers can maximize the benefits of home healthcare. Drawing on her 33 years of experience in therapy and acute care, Jackie breaks down common misconceptions about home health and explains how skilled care differs from routine daily assistance.

The conversation highlights how home healthcare serves as a vital bridge between hospitals, physicians, and families, helping seniors regain independence, manage chronic conditions, and stay safe at home.

Key Topics & Summary


Understanding Skilled Home Healthcare: Home health focuses on skilled medical needs—such as disease management education, physical/occupational therapy, and wound care—rather than custodial tasks like bathing or meal preparation, which fall under provider services.


Navigating Care & Coverage: Services require a physician or practitioner referral and are typically covered 100% by Medicare for patients who meet the "homebound" criteria, with visit schedules dictated by specific clinical needs rather than arbitrary caps.


Medication Reconciliation & Safety: Admission involves a thorough medication audit to reconcile prescriptions across specialists, preventing dangerous drug interactions, duplicate therapies, and rehospitalization.


Home Assessments & Adaptations: Therapists evaluate the living environment for hazards—checking bed heights, rug traction, cord placement, and bathroom grab bars—while teaching practical maneuvers, such as navigating kitchens or closets safely with a walker.


Caregiver Integration & Support: Family caregivers are encouraged to join visits to learn body mechanics for safer transfers, medication routine strategies, and early warning signs of health decline.


Telehealth Coordination: Home health teams assist homebound individuals by gathering vital signs and facilitating telehealth appointments with primary care providers.

Key Takeaways for Caregivers


Set Clear Goals: Before care begins, outline specific functional milestones—like transferring into a car, navigating stairs, or prepping a basic meal—to help guide the therapy plan.


Protect Your Own Health: Take advantage of therapist instruction on proper body mechanics so you can assist your loved one with sitting, standing, and moving without injuring yourself.


Be the First Line of Observation: Caregivers are often the first to notice subtle changes or physical declines; communicating these early allows the home health team to contact physicians and make timely adjustments before a health event becomes a crisis.

About Jacqueline

Homecare Dimensions opened in 1995 and provides skilled home health services in various markets throughout the state of Texas including San Antonio, Austin, Dallas- Fort Worth, Corpus Christi, the Rio Grande Valley, and El Paso. Skilled services include nursing, physical therapy, occupational therapy, and speech therapy. Services are provided to patients receiving services in the home. They offer training, education, and care for patients with varied diagnosis and disease processes including the need for wound care, IV therapy in the home, disease management support and training, medication management and teaching, as well as Physical, Occupational, and Speech therapy.

Speaking with us is Jacqueline Bresner, Director of Therapy with Homecare Dimensions Jacqueline is both a United Health Group Sages Award Winner, and Optum Superhero. Of her 33-year career, 26 of them have been working in extensive Home Health fields.

Hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial, and their guests talk about Caregiving and how to best cope with the stresses associated with it. Learn about "Caregiver SOS" and the "Teleconnection Hotline" programs.

Caregiver SOS On Air is a presentation of the WellMed Charitable Foundation. For more resources, tips, and past episodes, visit caregiversos.org or email your questions to radio@wellmed.net.

In this episode of Caregiver SOS On Air, hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial sit down with Jackie Bresner, Director of Therapy at Home Care Dimensions, to unpack how families and caregivers can maximize the benefits of home healthcare. Drawing on her 33 years of experience in therapy and acute care, Jackie breaks down common misconceptions about home health and explains how skilled care differs from routine daily assistance.
The conversation highlights how home healthcare serves as a vital bridge between hospitals, physicians, and families, helping seniors regain independence, manage chronic conditions, and stay safe at home.
Key Topics &amp; Summary
<ul data-path-to-node="3">
<li>
Understanding Skilled Home Healthcare: Home health focuses on skilled medical needs&mdash;such as disease management education, physical/occupational therapy, and wound care&mdash;rather than custodial tasks like bathing or meal preparation, which fall under provider services.
</li>
<li>
Navigating Care &amp; Coverage: Services require a physician or practitioner referral and are typically covered 100% by Medicare for patients who meet the "homebound" criteria, with visit schedules dictated by specific clinical needs rather than arbitrary caps.
</li>
<li>
Medication Reconciliation &amp; Safety: Admission involves a thorough medication audit to reconcile prescriptions across specialists, preventing dangerous drug interactions, duplicate therapies, and rehospitalization.
</li>
<li>
Home Assessments &amp; Adaptations: Therapists evaluate the living environment for hazards&mdash;checking bed heights, rug traction, cord placement, and bathroom grab bars&mdash;while teaching practical maneuvers, such as navigating kitchens or closets safely with a walker.
</li>
<li>
Caregiver Integration &amp; Support: Family caregivers are encouraged to join visits to learn body mechanics for safer transfers, medication routine strategies, and early warning signs of health decline.
</li>
<li>
Telehealth Coordination: Home health teams assist homebound individuals by gathering vital signs and facilitating telehealth appointments with primary care providers.
</li>
</ul>
Key Takeaways for Caregivers
<ol data-path-to-node="5">
<li>
Set Clear Goals: Before care begins, outline specific functional milestones&mdash;like transferring into a car, navigating stairs, or prepping a basic meal&mdash;to help guide the therapy plan.
</li>
<li>
Protect Your Own Health: Take advantage of therapist instruction on proper body mechanics so you can assist your loved one with sitting, standing, and moving without injuring yourself.
</li>
<li>
Be the First Line of Observation: Caregivers are often the first to notice subtle changes or physical declines; communicating these early allows the home health team to contact physicians and make timely adjustments before a health event becomes a crisis.
</li>
</ol>
About Jacqueline
Homecare Dimensions opened in 1995 and provides skilled home health services in various markets throughout the state of Texas including San Antonio, Austin, Dallas- Fort Worth, Corpus Christi, the Rio Grande Valley, and El Paso. Skilled services include nursing, physical therapy, occupational therapy, and speech therapy. Services are provided to patients receiving services in the home. They offer training, education, and care for patients with varied diagnosis and disease processes including the need for wound care, IV therapy in the home, disease management support and training, medication management and teaching, as well as Physical, Occupational, and Speech therapy.
Speaking with us is Jacqueline Bresner, Director of Therapy with Homecare Dimensions Jacqueline is both a United Health Group Sages Award Winner, and Optum Superhero. Of her 33-year career, 26 of them have been working in extensive Home Health fields.
Hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial, and their guests talk about Caregiving and how to best cope with the stresses associated with it. Learn about "Caregiver SOS" and the "Teleconnection Hotline" programs.
Caregiver SOS On Air is a presentation of the WellMed Charitable Foundation. For more resources, tips, and past episodes, visit caregiversos.org or email your questions to radio@wellmed.net.

Making the Most of Home Healthcare: What Caregivers Need to Know | Jacqueline Bresner

In this episode of Caregiver SOS On Air, hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial welcome internationally renowned intervention scientist, gerontologist, and Drexel University Dean Emerita Dr. Laura Gitlin. Together, they explore how tailored activities can transform dementia care, restore a sense of purpose for individuals living with cognitive decline, and alleviate caregiver stress. 

Episode Summary

Dr. Gitlin shares her nearly 40-year journey in gerontology, starting from early observations in nursing homes where residents living with dementia were left inactive and unengaged. Highlighting how family caregivers frequently struggle to find meaningful ways to engage their loved ones, Dr. Gitlin explains the origin and framework of the Tailored Activity Program (TAP). 

Rather than relying on one-size-fits-all activities, TAP focuses on identifying a person’s intrinsic interests and modifying tasks to match their current cognitive and physical abilities. The discussion covers practical examples across various stages of dementia, the role of occupational therapists (OTs) and other care providers, and the profound outcomes of tailored activities—from reducing hospitalizations to bringing moments of joy and happiness. 

Key Takeaways


Matching Interests to Current Capacities: Meaningful engagement requires connecting activities to intrinsic interests while adapting them to current functional levels. For example, a lifelong traveler with limited mobility might enjoy travel videos, color-focused visual programs, or photography books. 


The Enduring Need for Purpose: The fundamental need for a role, purpose, and identity remains throughout every stage of dementia. Engaging in tailored activities helps satisfy this need regardless of disease progression. 


Therapeutic Benefits for Caregivers & Recipients: Properly matched activities can reduce challenging behaviors (such as agitation, shadowing, or repetitive questioning), decrease hospitalizations, and lower caregiver burden and depression. 


Adaptation Across Disease Stages:


Early/Moderate Stages: Goal-directed activities like completing a crafted gift box. 


Severe/Late Stages: Sensory-rich experiences, including tactile materials, calming music, armchair exercises, procedural memory tasks (like holding or playing an instrument), or uplifting videos. 


The Role of Occupational Therapy: While TAP is designed around the expertise of OTs who assess cognitive capacity and environmental factors, elements of the program can be delivered by trained volunteers, nurses, social workers, and family caregivers. 


Focusing on What Remains: Traditional neurological tests evaluate lost capabilities, whereas TAP identifies remaining strengths to guide communication strategies, adapt environments, and set appropriate expectations. 

Key Moments & Highlights


Introduction: Hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial introduce Dr. Laura Gitlin and set the stage for discussing engagement in dementia care. 


Origin of the Work: Dr. Gitlin discusses observing resident inactivity in long-term care facilities and hearing family caregivers ask, "What do I do with my loved one?"




Tailoring Activities: Why single solutions (like generic music or crafts) don't work, and how to adapt activities around intrinsic interests. 


Real-World Connections & "Wowzitude": Host Carol Zernial highlights the Wowzitude Memory Travels program and shares how recognizing a loved one's past professional role can explain and redirect behaviors. 


Stage-Specific Activity Examples: From goal-directed crafts in early stages to sensory and procedural memory activities in advanced stages. 


Measuring Success & The Priority of Joy: Shifting focus from standard clinical metrics toward fostering moments of joy, laughter, and personal satisfaction. 


Delivery & Payment Models: How OTs and other professionals integrate TAP into care plans, along with navigate prescription requirements and Medicare reimbursement considerations in the U.S. 


Caregiver Realizations & Lasting Impact: How caregivers gain new perspective on their loved one's abilities, featuring a moving story of a caregiver utilizing TAP strategies years later.

About Dr. Gitlin

Laura N. Gitlin, PhD, FGSA, FAAN is internationally and nationally ranked among the top social scientists. She is an intervention scientist, dean emerita, and a distinguished professor in the College of Nursing and Health Professions, Drexel University. She co-founds and is chief scientific officer of Plans4Care, Inc. She is the author/co-author of over 550 scientific publications and seven books. Her recent co-authored, Handbook of Intervention Science: From Design to Implementation (Academic Press), was reviewed as “lifting intervention science to new heights”. She works with numerous proven programs such as COPE, Adult Day Service Plus, Get Busy Get Better and the Tailored Activity Program.

Guest Contact: To learn more about Dr. Laura Gitlin's research and work, email her directly at LNG45@drexel.edu.

Hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial, and their guests talk about Caregiving and how to best cope with the stresses associated with it. Learn about "Caregiver SOS" and the "Teleconnection Hotline" programs.

Caregiver SOS On Air is a presentation of the WellMed Charitable Foundation. For more resources, tips, and past episodes, visit caregiversos.org or email your questions to radio@wellmed.net.

In this episode of Caregiver SOS On Air, hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial welcome internationally renowned intervention scientist, gerontologist, and Drexel University Dean Emerita Dr. Laura Gitlin. Together, they explore how tailored activities can transform dementia care, restore a sense of purpose for individuals living with cognitive decline, and alleviate caregiver stress. 
Episode Summary
Dr. Gitlin shares her nearly 40-year journey in gerontology, starting from early observations in nursing homes where residents living with dementia were left inactive and unengaged. Highlighting how family caregivers frequently struggle to find meaningful ways to engage their loved ones, Dr. Gitlin explains the origin and framework of the Tailored Activity Program (TAP). 
Rather than relying on one-size-fits-all activities, TAP focuses on identifying a person&rsquo;s intrinsic interests and modifying tasks to match their current cognitive and physical abilities. The discussion covers practical examples across various stages of dementia, the role of occupational therapists (OTs) and other care providers, and the profound outcomes of tailored activities&mdash;from reducing hospitalizations to bringing moments of joy and happiness. 
Key Takeaways
<ul data-path-to-node="8">
<li>
Matching Interests to Current Capacities: Meaningful engagement requires connecting activities to intrinsic interests while adapting them to current functional levels. For example, a lifelong traveler with limited mobility might enjoy travel videos, color-focused visual programs, or photography books. 
</li>
<li>
The Enduring Need for Purpose: The fundamental need for a role, purpose, and identity remains throughout every stage of dementia. Engaging in tailored activities helps satisfy this need regardless of disease progression. 
</li>
<li>
Therapeutic Benefits for Caregivers &amp; Recipients: Properly matched activities can reduce challenging behaviors (such as agitation, shadowing, or repetitive questioning), decrease hospitalizations, and lower caregiver burden and depression. 
</li>
<li>
Adaptation Across Disease Stages:
<ul data-path-to-node="8,3,1">
<li>
Early/Moderate Stages: Goal-directed activities like completing a crafted gift box. 
</li>
<li>
Severe/Late Stages: Sensory-rich experiences, including tactile materials, calming music, armchair exercises, procedural memory tasks (like holding or playing an instrument), or uplifting videos. 
</li>
</ul>
</li>
<li>
The Role of Occupational Therapy: While TAP is designed around the expertise of OTs who assess cognitive capacity and environmental factors, elements of the program can be delivered by trained volunteers, nurses, social workers, and family caregivers. 
</li>
<li>
Focusing on What Remains: Traditional neurological tests evaluate lost capabilities, whereas TAP identifies remaining strengths to guide communication strategies, adapt environments, and set appropriate expectations. 
</li>
</ul>
Key Moments &amp; Highlights
<ul data-path-to-node="11">
<li>
Introduction: Hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial introduce Dr. Laura Gitlin and set the stage for discussing engagement in dementia care. 
</li>
<li>
Origin of the Work: Dr. Gitlin discusses observing resident inactivity in long-term care facilities and hearing family caregivers ask, "What do I do with my loved one?"
 
</li>
<li>
Tailoring Activities: Why single solutions (like generic music or crafts) don't work, and how to adapt activities around intrinsic interests. 
</li>
<li>
Real-World Connections &amp; "Wowzitude": Host Carol Zernial highlights the Wowzitude Memory Travels program and shares how recognizing a loved one's past professional role can explain and redirect behaviors. 
</li>
<li>
Stage-Specific Activity Examples: From goal-directed crafts in early stages to sensory and procedural memory activities in advanced stages. 
</li>
<li>
Measuring Success &amp; The Priority of Joy: Shifting focus from standard clinical metrics toward fostering moments of joy, laughter, and personal satisfaction. 
</li>
<li>
Delivery &amp; Payment Models: How OTs and other professionals integrate TAP into care plans, along with navigate prescription requirements and Medicare reimbursement considerations in the U.S. 
</li>
<li>
Caregiver Realizations &amp; Lasting Impact: How caregivers gain new perspective on their loved one's abilities, featuring a moving story of a caregiver utilizing TAP strategies years later.
</li>
</ul>
About Dr. Gitlin
Laura N. Gitlin, PhD, FGSA, FAAN is internationally and nationally ranked among the top social scientists. She is an intervention scientist, dean emerita, and a distinguished professor in the College of Nursing and Health Professions, Drexel University. She co-founds and is chief scientific officer of Plans4Care, Inc. She is the author/co-author of over 550 scientific publications and seven books. Her recent co-authored, Handbook of Intervention Science: From Design to Implementation (Academic Press), was reviewed as &ldquo;lifting intervention science to new heights&rdquo;. She works with numerous proven programs such as COPE, Adult Day Service Plus, Get Busy Get Better and the Tailored Activity Program.
Guest Contact: To learn more about Dr. Laura Gitlin's research and work, email her directly at <a href="mailto:LNG45@drexel.edu">LNG45@drexel.edu</a>.
Hosts Ron Aaron and Carol Zernial, and their guests talk about Caregiving and how to best cope with the stresses associated with it. Learn about "Caregiver SOS" and the "Teleconnection Hotline" programs.
Caregiver SOS On Air is a presentation of the WellMed Charitable Foundation. For more resources, tips, and past episodes, visit caregiversos.org or email your questions to radio@wellmed.net.

Sunday March 18th 2018 - with Ron Aaron, Carol Zernial, and guest Carol Bradley Bursack of Minding Our Elders

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