Professor Mathew Schmalz speaks to Lester Kiewit about the intensifying public clash between Donald Trump and Pope Leo, exploring what may be driving the confrontation at a political and psychological level. The discussion looks at growing pressure on Trump amid the Iran conflict and economic strain, divisions within his MAGA base, and why his response appears increasingly reactive. Schmalz also explains the significance of references to the Avignon Papacy, and what alleged US pressure on the Vatican could mean symbolically and geopolitically. The conversation further considers the implications for Vice President J.D. Vance, who faces scrutiny as a Catholic in an administration openly attacking the Pope, as well as the broader reaction from Christian communities to Trump’s increasingly provocative rhetoric and imagery.

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