Good morning Cave Town, mister Kivett, starting your day on Cave Talk.

Good morning Cave Town, mister Kivett, starting your day on Cave Talk.

I was going through some back issues of the New Yorker magazine and I found quite interesting an article around a global effort to looking to the histories of shipwrecks and particularly the shipwrecks related to the Transatlantic slave trade. He's currently being taught to learn as in grade seven history classes, as Bruce tells me, but how many of us are we of just how deep and how large in terms of a mercantile Transatlantic slave trade actually was. And over the years, marine archaeologists have been discovering locations of wrecks of ships which were used in the global slave trade. And it's a coordinated effort, and this is why it was in the New Yorker magazine, a coordinated effort by the Smith Smithsonian Museum alongside George Washington Museum in the United States and Iszco Museums here in South Africa looking at this underwater archaeological heritage. Joining me now as Jako Bossov. He is a maritime archaeologist. He has done particular work looking at Rex and the history of Rex in and around the Cape Coast. He has done work on the the the the Mihrmann in and around Cape Waters. Jako, thanks so much, really appreciate your time. Why the international efforts now, what is interesting about this particular chapter of history, that is coordination between the Smithsonian, George Washington University, the EZCO Museums, but also museums and research institutes in southm Erica looking into these shipwrecks of the past.

I was going through some back issues of the New Yorker magazine and I found quite interesting an article around a global effort to looking to the histories of shipwrecks and particularly the shipwrecks related to the Transatlantic slave trade. He's currently being taught to learn as in grade seven history classes, as Bruce tells me, but how many of us are we of just how deep and how large in terms of a mercantile Transatlantic slave trade actually was. And over the years, marine archaeologists have been discovering locations of wrecks of ships which were used in the global slave trade. And it's a coordinated effort, and this is why it was in the New Yorker magazine, a coordinated effort by the Smith Smithsonian Museum alongside George Washington Museum in the United States and Iszco Museums here in South Africa looking at this underwater archaeological heritage. Joining me now as Jako Bossov. He is a maritime archaeologist. He has done particular work looking at Rex and the history of Rex in and around the Cape Coast. He has done work on the the the the Mihrmann in and around Cape Waters. Jako, thanks so much, really appreciate your time. Why the international efforts now, what is interesting about this particular chapter of history, that is coordination between the Smithsonian, George Washington University, the EZCO Museums, but also museums and research institutes in southm Erica looking into these shipwrecks of the past.

Jako, Good morning, morning Leston, and thanks for having me. So the history of slavery has always been in the past not being something that was highlighted, you know, in a major way. And in the early two thousands in maritime archaeology as well, maritime archaeologists always sort of took the easy way out and not looked at slave shipwrecks and the history of slavery, which is quite an intense and the sensitive history is a lot of you know, feelings and emotions around it as well. So we started in about two thousand and three, myself and Steve Lopomen at George Washington University got this idea of looking at slave shipwrecks and looking not just at one shipwreck. At that stage, I was looking for the wreck of the Meriment but thought, yeah, so you find the XO, what you know, let's look at at more than one. Let's let's combine that and and look at at it in a global sort of fashion. So transatlantic slave trade has been very well studied by the Americans. But the one side of slaves, the slave trade that hasn't been studied too well was the Indian ocean trade. And we thought that that that would be also something to look at. And therefore we started with by looking at ship pricks and focused on one in Clifton, the Jose, which we eventually found and identified. But as part of this we started getting international partners involved. The Smithsonian came on board, they helped us with funding, and then we looked at, you know, the Brazilian side because was from Brazil, and and then there were some of our archaeological colleagues in Brazil. It was looking for specific ship prick. But the but the meaning behind is that this is a history that was often suppressed and you know, it's sort of almost a hidden history. A lot of people don't don't want to own their own sort of history in the sceense that you know, they come from a slave, a slavery background and from both sides, you know, from the owners and from from the people who descended from slaves. And we thought that this is why to bring this forward and to try and sort of make people understand why we should never have slavery again, why it's important.

Jako, Good morning, morning Leston, and thanks for having me. So the history of slavery has always been in the past not being something that was highlighted, you know, in a major way. And in the early two thousands in maritime archaeology as well, maritime archaeologists always sort of took the easy way out and not looked at slave shipwrecks and the history of slavery, which is quite an intense and the sensitive history is a lot of you know, feelings and emotions around it as well. So we started in about two thousand and three, myself and Steve Lopomen at George Washington University got this idea of looking at slave shipwrecks and looking not just at one shipwreck. At that stage, I was looking for the wreck of the Meriment but thought, yeah, so you find the XO, what you know, let's look at at more than one. Let's let's combine that and and look at at it in a global sort of fashion. So transatlantic slave trade has been very well studied by the Americans. But the one side of slaves, the slave trade that hasn't been studied too well was the Indian ocean trade. And we thought that that that would be also something to look at. And therefore we started with by looking at ship pricks and focused on one in Clifton, the Jose, which we eventually found and identified. But as part of this we started getting international partners involved. The Smithsonian came on board, they helped us with funding, and then we looked at, you know, the Brazilian side because was from Brazil, and and then there were some of our archaeological colleagues in Brazil. It was looking for specific ship prick. But the but the meaning behind is that this is a history that was often suppressed and you know, it's sort of almost a hidden history. A lot of people don't don't want to own their own sort of history in the sceense that you know, they come from a slave, a slavery background and from both sides, you know, from the owners and from from the people who descended from slaves. And we thought that this is why to bring this forward and to try and sort of make people understand why we should never have slavery again, why it's important.

What's fascinating about the Jose is a ship that traveled between Brazil and Mosambique. Two hundred enslaved people perished in the in the waves of Clifton, but three hundred survived, and those three hundred were then slowed into enslavement. But it speaks to the descendants of those three hundred enslaved people could then be alive today. And that is then the result of the makeup and the identity and the culture of the city of Cape Down that the Transatlantic slave trade as a direct bearing even in this day in twenty twenty five.

What's fascinating about the Jose is a ship that traveled between Brazil and Mosambique. Two hundred enslaved people perished in the in the waves of Clifton, but three hundred survived, and those three hundred were then slowed into enslavement. But it speaks to the descendants of those three hundred enslaved people could then be alive today. And that is then the result of the makeup and the identity and the culture of the city of Cape Down that the Transatlantic slave trade as a direct bearing even in this day in twenty twenty five.

Yes, that is exactly it. And also, you know, the one thing about the slave trade, it's one of the roots of aparthect you know, it's one of the ways where people started. How do you control a population is by making them other. They look different from you, they are so and they become property. And that's one way to create this division. Just divide that existed that you know, So it's the roots is a little bit further than what one often thinks that it started in the twentieth century or in the nineteenth century. Started way before that. But also, you know, so the other thing is this is a lost history. If you look at the archives and you try and find the names of these survivors from Sajose, you find nothing. It's almost impossible. Though. Although we do find names of the crew of the ship, the captain, we know who they were, we know where they came from. One of them was the progenitor of the the Lava family in South Africa. So yeah, we know a lot about the captain and the crew, but we know almost nothing about who these slaves were. We know that they might have come from the mainland Mozambique, some of them might have come from Ilia the Mozambique, there might be some from Madagascar. But these are all just tantalizing little clues that we cannot get firm evidence on.

Yes, that is exactly it. And also, you know, the one thing about the slave trade, it's one of the roots of aparthect you know, it's one of the ways where people started. How do you control a population is by making them other. They look different from you, they are so and they become property. And that's one way to create this division. Just divide that existed that you know, So it's the roots is a little bit further than what one often thinks that it started in the twentieth century or in the nineteenth century. Started way before that. But also, you know, so the other thing is this is a lost history. If you look at the archives and you try and find the names of these survivors from Sajose, you find nothing. It's almost impossible. Though. Although we do find names of the crew of the ship, the captain, we know who they were, we know where they came from. One of them was the progenitor of the the Lava family in South Africa. So yeah, we know a lot about the captain and the crew, but we know almost nothing about who these slaves were. We know that they might have come from the mainland Mozambique, some of them might have come from Ilia the Mozambique, there might be some from Madagascar. But these are all just tantalizing little clues that we cannot get firm evidence on.

There's the Jose, which you've worked on in finding. But then there's the San Jose, which is the Spanish galleon that sunk off the coast are of Colombia, and it's reported that there is billions and billions of gold trinkets, billions of in terms of billions of dollars in worth of gold trinkets. How do you've been protect that type of history, which is which is shad human history and protect against people wanting to become sort of salvages of of galleons trying to to then profit of what they maybe have been carrying in the saose in the San Jose's instance, gold bullion.

There's the Jose, which you've worked on in finding. But then there's the San Jose, which is the Spanish galleon that sunk off the coast are of Colombia, and it's reported that there is billions and billions of gold trinkets, billions of in terms of billions of dollars in worth of gold trinkets. How do you've been protect that type of history, which is which is shad human history and protect against people wanting to become sort of salvages of of galleons trying to to then profit of what they maybe have been carrying in the saose in the San Jose's instance, gold bullion.

Yes, that that San Jose also created a bit of an issue for us because people started confusing us with that, you know, with San Jose. And anyways, we've had since the sixties when since the nineteen fifties when scuba gear became more common amongst the public and out of the military, we had people starting to look at treasure ships and start doing treasure unting and unfortunately destroy a lot of maritime heritage in that way. So the way is that you protected. In South Africa, we've got a very strong legislation. Unfortunately, if you have strong legislation, you cannot enforce it. It's it's very difficult. So that that is the tricky part is how do you enforce this? And one of the best ways that we found is to educate people. Is to educate them was why, why is this important? And why do you you know you have to preserve this heritage.

Yes, that that San Jose also created a bit of an issue for us because people started confusing us with that, you know, with San Jose. And anyways, we've had since the sixties when since the nineteen fifties when scuba gear became more common amongst the public and out of the military, we had people starting to look at treasure ships and start doing treasure unting and unfortunately destroy a lot of maritime heritage in that way. So the way is that you protected. In South Africa, we've got a very strong legislation. Unfortunately, if you have strong legislation, you cannot enforce it. It's it's very difficult. So that that is the tricky part is how do you enforce this? And one of the best ways that we found is to educate people. Is to educate them was why, why is this important? And why do you you know you have to preserve this heritage.

It's fascinating Heritagejucko Boss of maritime archaeologists at the x Eco Museums. Part of a multi country effort to look into the history of the transatlantic slave trade, but also particularly sunken slave ships and one of those ships, the Sours. They being part of this international effort, being found uh in Capelin and several years ago. You can really appreciate your time

It's fascinating Heritagejucko Boss of maritime archaeologists at the x Eco Museums. Part of a multi country effort to look into the history of the transatlantic slave trade, but also particularly sunken slave ships and one of those ships, the Sours. They being part of this international effort, being found uh in Capelin and several years ago. You can really appreciate your time