Call It What It IsJess is flying solo with actress and singer, Ariana DeBose.
They discuss insecurities and fitting into the industry, working with castmates who can’t remember their lines and interesting toxic traits.
Call It What It Is with Jessica Capshaw and Camille Luddington, an iHeartRadio podcast. Hello, Hello, Hello, Welcome to another episode of Call It What It Is with a very special guest. My dear, I get to look at your eyes while I say this in person, in real life, Arianna Devozo. Hi. We got too excited, and we got too excited we saw each other, and now I'm like, okay. Just when I first saw you in the green room, I actually thought to myself, Okay, just don't talk for a minute, but you gotta save it. These are things that sometimes when Camille and I will get on we'll be like no, no, no, and I'll be like, save it. You are one of my favorite people to talk to and we don't get to see each other enough. So you coming on here today is such a gift, just for all the reasons, like spams, the friend category, the professional category, all the categories. I've been thinking about you a lot the past couple of days, in knowing that I was about to see you, okay, and I was thinking, do you remember when we first met.
We were on No Pressurets at West Side Story right and.
We were shooting.
It was one of the days we were shooting America in New Jersey, yep. And I can't remember. I think I was injured. I had a busted ankle, and I was like, in my mustard yellow garb, the most beautiful.
It was so gorgeous.
Thank you, Paul Taswell Academy Award Winter Paul Taso.
We love to see it, those costumes.
And I was a little like dazed because I was like, oh, I've got to I've got to run up hills and I've got a twirl and the skirt is a bit heavy and awesome, and you were just like hi, and you talked to.
Me like we know each other for years, and I was like, maybe we have I's like dig her spirit and maybe I needed this verst of energy. Not a clue what I said to you, though, Okay, So my memory all of that tracks and makes complete sentence sentence. It makes complete sense because you I had sort of been with you longer than you've been with me, right, because the casting process is so long, especially in a case like this, yeah, long, and you being on my side of it, which is just you know, in the family of you were so familiar and the story of who plays who and how and all that stuff is sort of something that I'm definitely not a part of, but that I am. I am in proximity too, So you had I had a familiarity with you, and I remember actually first meeting you on stages behind the camera and being like in awe of even being really shy, and you being super warm and giving me a really big hug and like, oh my gosh. And I think that you had maybe mentioned that you had either watched or seen Grays and I was like, yeah, she knows who I am. Yes, I knew you were. Are you kidding? It was so clear being on that set that every single person was giving their actual everything. Yeah, it was bananas. That time was so it was very visceral.
But it's even sitting here now, it's like I remember like what it felt like, but I don't remember all of the details anymore, And oh my god, I hope as I.
Mature that the details come back.
But it was such a visceral time and there was so much energy and everyone was working so hard, but no one worked harder than hefe.
Like Stephen was in there. It was the first one in and the last one out. Yeah, every night, well and he never really goes out because as you meet with him, yeah, it's in the car and he's thinking and he's looking at the window. Yeah, he's I have to say, he's so self aware that man has done his work at work and also at home. Because when I was younger, my experience was that he would you would, he would just be lost in thoughts. But you were. I wasn't old enough to know that those thoughts were about work. I just you know, it would mean to me, like, you know, he was just he was somewhere else, right, And now there's this self awareness where even just the other day, we were gonna have dinner and he said to me on the phone beforehand, he said, hey, I just want to let you know. You know, I'm prepping for this thing and I'm really thinking about it a lot. So if I don't talk for a little bit, it's really about that. It's not about anything else. And I was, that's so it's so gross, it's so adults.
It's so always interesting your parents are real adults, real adults. And like for creative brains, I mean we come across creative people all the time, right, not all creatives very mature.
What what about what so and other interested.
Uh yeah, And I love that fact about him. To be who he is, to have all the experience he has, and to be such a deep, deep thinker and to have that self awareness, it's rare.
It's rare. It's kitties, it's rare. Well. And also speaking of that, I think that having just lived such a long life with him as a creator and as a parent, I've really watched him create these work families. And when I was younger, I did a different relationship with it because I kind of was a little jealous, you know, not I want to take it away from you, weigh, but in like a oh, you really like working with her? That's nice. I get that she does that so well, that's great. God, she was so good, was she. I didn't actually think she was that good that seeing Honestly, I thought you could have pulled something better out of her. But it's fine, it's great. They're so nice.
I actually get that though My mom's a public scho teacher and so and she raised me a single parent.
Gina shout out to Gina Jana.
But I get that because there were times in my childhood where, you know, when you're an educator, you inevitably if you're a parent.
Also, you don't just have one kid, You got all the kids are teaching.
You spent so much much time not only educating but raising in a way.
Yeah, other people's children. Yeah. And I did at times feel like I was sharing her. And there were times.
My childhood that I had to check myself because I was like, Oh, you really like that student.
That student's so smart. I'm smart. So I remember you having this work family. I remember going to visit. I remember being wowed that you knew who I was. I then remember watching you on the cue. They have the monitors and you watch the performances by the chairs, and I was sitting that was there with Tony Kushner and the dialect coach.
Victor Cruze and Tom Jones were our dialect coaches.
I believe Tom was there that day and script and it was just watching the magic and yan Oush and the lighting and this you're watching. You're watching magic happen and it's been happening, and I I couldn't be more grateful to have been able to watch this, you know, for the great majority of my life. So that's when I remember first meeting you. But then I remember I had to go back to Los Angeles because it was shot in New York and New Jersey. I went back to Los Angeles for work and I had to take a red Eye, which I strongly just like. And I came and I landed, and I came straight to New Jersey. I remember you coming down this street and it was like magic, like the dancing, the intensity you're you have a great game face. Your face was I mean, every single fiber of you was in this and the I mean again I don't know the correct terms, but like just all the like choreography, yes, the choreography, and you came around and you were looking at the you know, actors come around to look at the playback to make sure that they're doing and you were this incredible balance and I want to hear you talk about it. Oh my god, I love that.
That's your experience of watching meat process and how I'm doing whatever whatever it.
Is that I'm doing. At the time.
It was very funny because I I didn't really like to watch a lot of playback, and Hefe and I had spoken and I was like, I'm going to trust you on the scenes. I'm not going to watch my playback on scenes because I will get to I was very self conscious about my acting, and I was like, if you think you got it, then I'm gonna trust you, and you got it.
Because you would be worried that you would I.
Would not be in balance, yep. Whereas with dance, I'm such a technician that But I also like, for me, dances is spiritual.
It's like communion.
So I know what I'm looking for, and I'm like, this is a moment where this character needs to let go, and this is a moment where I do need to execute this technique. So I was able to find balance, and so that's what I was really looking for. Is like Justin Peck, our choreographer on that film, who, by the way, I don't think he gets his flowers enough. Oh he did such a beautiful job in executing both the Sharks and the Jets, creating two different worlds.
Because that's really what I think.
Is movie musical magic is the definition of worlds.
And I think the best musicals you really get to see that.
I haven't seen it in every movie musical since West Side Story, but I have seen it in a few times. But Justin really did that well and So what I was looking for that day because that section there are moments that are odes to the original nineteen sixty one film and odes to the Broadway stage production and the original choreo.
That I was like, this does have to be right.
They would have done it this way, not this way, and I was trying to tweak that whilst also finding those moments of like real clarity within losing oneself. So it's it's alchemy, is really what I think I'm doing.
Yeah, but I don't know what I'm doing. Well, you did it. You did it in one hundred and five degree weather and a very y'ah knews's lights. He said, it's already hot. Let's put another football stadium light on you. It just looks so beautiful. Everything was painful, question Mark, I don't know it was painful. I mean I burned wholesome shoes. That was what I was going to get. So I remember that how many different pairs of she so I think she's talking about burning holes in the soles of her shoes because of how hot the pavement was and how hard you were dancing. Yes, I mean you were a lot of twirling, so much twirling.
So the reality of situation is we're dancing on cement. It's not like there's a.
Floor are laid out on the street for you. You're dancing on the cement. And I just whittled down the body of my shoes. Classy. It was worth it. It was so it was so worth it. It was worth it all again. Yeah, there's nothing I would have changed about any of that. I really wouldn't have well, maybe a few things, but it's okay, progress, not perfect, progress, not perfection.
But I loved it, and it's something I deal with kind of on the daily because that film and that process of getting to dance and getting to sing and act and do all of these things.
And I'm really I think.
I'm really good at in one film with great material. Thank you Tony Kushner for that beautiful adaptation. That was the very thing I did, I know, and it was for all intentsive purposes perfection.
Of an experience, truly like collaborative. Ah woar.
Years from having given it to the world, we made it pre panned.
Yeah, yeah, so that was a minute ago. I was cast in twenty eighteen. Yep. Wow, it's so insane.
Banana pancakes and the movie got made in twenty nineteen.
Yeah, I could be wrong, but the timeline, the timeline, the timeline was funky because we had time as relative. Time is relative. Time is relative.
But then it was a long time so to have done that first, and now there are reasons why I'm like.
I'll try anything. You cannot duplicate that alience. And I've come to the conclusion that, like, you gotta stop trying.
You just got to show up everywhere you go and accept the experience and try and like do your part in it.
In a weird way, I think that the environment that we're working in right now as actors, I'm only I'm only an actor. I'm not a triple threat like you. In my own mind, I like to think, here's the thing. I like to think I could sing. I actually know I can't dance. I'm sure sure, yes I will. I will make the story short. But there was a time in young Jessica Kaepshaw's life and she too was willing to try anything, and she auditioned for I'm talking about myself in the third person. Else I'm gonna go with it. She auditioned for Thoroughly Modern Milli the Revival, and she made it to final callbacks and got flown to New York City to complete the trible threat process. And yes, she fell apart during the dancing. She knows. It's been proven. It's a lot of tap. It was so tap tap harm horrendous. It was. I was terrible. I wish there was I'm not joking. I actually genuinely wish there was camera on it. Maybe there is, I could find it. It would nothing would give me greater pleasure. It wasn't that a genine story show. She might would have the tape on that. Yeah, and you know what I feel like maybe at some point during the filming of she said something about like didn't.
You about it the time?
But again, in my mind, it's okay, great. In my mind, I'm a pop star. Oh yeah, you know what I mean.
Like, in my mind, I am just doing my things, probably along the lines of like Gaga style, just because she could not put that woman at a box. She's everything and all things. But that's what I am in my mind. But I'm actually I'm just trying to triple thread it and like hold a line.
But before you went on to do all that, you had to do that little thing which is called winning an Oscar. Yeah, And I'm just curious because we don't need to belaebor the point you want it. We know it. Spoiler alert, she wanted one. I'm curious, what if you were going on opposite ends the spectrum, the thing that you now remember really enjoying the most about that journey, if you will, And I guess I mean from like the minute you get the phone call saying you're nominated for an Academy Award to you're standing on stage accepting a fucking Academy award, which is again, I mean, you just talked about a perfect experience and then sort of I mean a perfect ending. Yeah, you know, to wrap that nicely up. So I'm curious what the thing was that you enjoyed the most about that and then the thing that you were like, oh man, okay, that happened. And I'm really happy that that's a mammor ofview mirror. Oh, I know, just pick one.
You know, I'm still just so grateful that it happened. I think I knew for me the win was getting to make the movie itself, because at the time I was sure they were going to stun cast that thing. I was like, I don't have a chance in hell. Why would I go in for that, like just to be like thank you so much. On my god, you're talented, but you're not getting this job. So just the fact that I got to make the movie was the thing. I was surprised by every single nomination. Every time I think people ask like, were you faking, like you know you're winning. Think Katrina Bouf at one point during the Awards season was like, you know you're winning, And I was like, I don't, like I think I won a BAFTA. Yeah, it's like they said my name and I was like.
Holy shit, I don't go here. I don't go here my home school. No, it's not like I was.
I was just honored to be included because I was like, like British film.
Yetish theater, Like, yeah, it is a whole thing. I love it. I revere it. I'm still watching BBC. I love those shows. The writing is better girl.
Sorry those writers, man, they get it right over there.
But like, I just was.
Surprised by it all, and so I was able to truly enjoy every moment. There were little sprinkles of drama here and there, because honestly, actors the nature of the beasts, I know, but like the joy outweighed any of that. I the rear view mirror portion of your question. I didn't realize. I can't think of a better way to say this. I didn't realize what a race it actually was, though, Like once you give the movie, like you you'll do a press tour for the release of the film, and da da da da, and that's like great because you're all celebrating, and then the awards stuff starts happening.
And I didn't realize what a race it was, Like, what a campaign it was.
I can't realize the stamina. And I didn't realize how many people I was going to have to talk to and meet, Like, I didn't realize how tired I was gonna be. I got sick, I developed fifty two food allergies. Yeah, I was stressed out all the time. But I was thrilled that I was even getting the opportunity to do.
With this thing. Yeah. And that is funny because that is the weight in the counterweight, because so often people who are listening or watching people talk about the experience of this exact thing. Yeah, Like people are like, oh, she's so tired, Oh he's so tired, Like, how tired must it be? Because they see the glamorized parts, they see the fashion, or they see they see the result, they see all that and or they watched I mean again show. I mean, being on a show that works ten months out of the year is very different than being on a movie for three months. So you know, in our world, it was like if you were sick, okay, so you're still showing up, take your pills. At this point, I put a mask because it was before they would even have you put on They would never have you put on a mask. You would show up and you would just yeah, for sure, don't touch anyone. I mean, I don't think I'm like, I don't. I don't think I'm like letting out some dirty dark secret. But there was always like the doctor. They'd call the doctor. There was definitely some sort of like B B three shots, something like that, twelve like complex because if they need to just prop you up sometimes they will, oh, okay.
One of my most infamous at this point, but one of my most infamous performances I've given in my career was not the year I wanted aft up, but the year after that with the whole did the thing debacle. I think it was still fun whatever. Yeah, but I was very sick. Yeah, and I'm trained for the show to go on. And I did have a doctor come and prop me up yep, so that I could fulfill the commitment. I said that I would do yeah them, and I did want to, but I was like, wow, hi, pneumonia.
Yeah, No, the show must go on. But the show went on and I did my thing and I went home. Yeah, and you.
Know, I got to eight a lie for it and again lesson learn Hindsight's twenty twenty.
Yeah, pneumonia, stay home. I know, I know, I know. We need to learn. We need to learn, but that's okay, we need to grow. It's also we do.
We do need to grow, and I make different decisions as a result of that experience now. But I do think you get to moments like that because a part of the I hate to do it, but the system.
That was created that we were all.
Sort of like indoctrined by. Yeah, there are things that you do. You push forward, you say yes, you keep going yeah, no matter what I know, And that's not always healthy. And I think it is a myth that you can do it all yes, can I do it all?
Yeah, but I can't do it all at one time? Yeah. Yeah.
And the idea that that's achievable, I think is unhealthy.
Yeah.
So for me, I do like what you say, maybe it's not balanced, it's compromise, right, Like, I will compromise this thing for the moment so that I can do this and do it really well.
Yeah, and I it's sort of again, I mean, it's so mindset base, but it's also this it feels like the same or similar relationship that I had when I started realizing what the difference was between reactivity and responsivity. Yeah, Like, how am I in this situation? Is my reaction what this situation needs? Or is actually the best thing for me to hmm, sit with it for a second, take a couple breaths, maybe sit in a little discomfort even right, discomfort is great. It has been my greatest teacher of the last year. Talk about that I've had.
Hey, I mean, twenty twenty five has been a but twenty twenty four was a real yeah too, Like I had several like situations where I just was like, I, my response is not necessary, it's not I cannot control.
Cannot control. Oh, it's a word. It's it is. It is well in a world that surges for perfection. Yeah, control is like m it seems like the highway to it, but it's not. It's so not. In fact, it's the antithesis. It's flow the roadblock. Lets the roadblock, like, let go with that stit.
But I I had several situations and it just felt like I was like, ooh, this is one thing after another. But the answer to all of it was to let myself be uncomfortable, to hear it, learn what is mine, to take on what is not mine, water off a ducts back.
But yeah, I have to breathe through it.
You just have to, because not everything needs a response from you. I want to defend myself so often, and I would love to tell people how wrong they are, But guess what, it's not really gonna help the situation because people are gonna say and do and think what they want to think without being informed.
Yep. And that's their ignorance, not mine. Yep. I can only do what I can do.
So last year was a practice for me of sitting in my discomfort and actually thinking consciously about what I want to choose.
So when you talk about not knowing what you're doing. Now, will you do you? Do you believe that you need to? Like, do you think that you'll think about it and then you'll manifest it and it will come? Or you vision boardy or do you that's a good question.
I'm I do vision board a journal a lot, but I stopped getting I used to be like.
Oh my god, I would love to work with so and so one day and I got their picture. I'm a little bit board. Or I'd love to make a.
Movie, lie and h, I'd love to do this vias the call.
I don't do that anymore.
I I use photos to represent the feeling of an experience that I would like to have, because I realized, in trying to manifest so specifically, I was leaning into an assumption I had made about what that experience would be, or an assumption i'd made about a person I really want to work with.
Because when you're.
Or in my youth, like a lot of people do, we look at starry people and because of the access that the media has.
To them, we assume that that is so clearly who they are. We know them, they're our bestie. Yeah they're not.
And I love all of the folks that I've had the privilege to work with. But I would be lying if I didn't say that I've met some folks that I really thought were one thing or this was the narrative that they put out in.
The world, and it became a different thing.
And when you make assumptions about people, you rob them of their humanity because the reality is they have the right to be whoever they are. Yeah, And so I was like, that was a big thing for me, So I stopped manifesting so specifically, but like, I want to I want to work with this these types or these people and more like I would like an experience that is a.
Fantasy type of peace, and.
The people that come together to make it happen are truly collaborative and.
Like really want to play in like the most weird creative ways, Like.
I manifest from that space now, Yeah, because then I can be surprised by who the universe sends me. And I trust and trust, so I'm in a real trust relationship.
I love it trust with the universe right now. I used to think that manifesting was like telling the universe what I wanted and then then it to give us me. That's not how it works. It's not how it works. I I appreciate you describing your experience because it sounds wise. Yeah, I that has really worked for me.
I've also gone on a spiritual journey over the last couple of years, spending time with the universe, whatever that is to you. That could be going on a walk, noticing the trees, listening to the sounds of wherever you are, Like, that's that's spiritual to me.
Yeah. And how you commune with it, like how you how are you get from it? What do you get from it? What energy are you putting out? And how quickly it can change your day? Like, so we're in New York City, right, We're in New York City at the end of March, which on any given years, really you never know what you're gonna fucking get, really, don't. I saw daffodils the other day and they changed your whole day. I heard you say like, this is what I'm good at, and this is what I want and I and I know this about myself, and that to me is so easy and confident. And I've seen you perform, I know you as a person. So that's like, yes, check, I'm so glad she sees her like I see her. When do you find yourself on the other side of that? When do you? When do you? What are the creepy sneaky? You know? Because a lot of our listeners, you know, will either call in with questions, and there are different parts of their life, right, like they're in high school or they're you know, in their twenties, thirties, all the decades, right, and there's so many questions about like ugh, I I I tell myself this story and I doubt myself, or I think I've got I think I've already seen everything, like the end game has already arrived. I'm gonna be in this job forever, I'm going to be in this toxic friendship forever. I'm in the wrong friend group, I'm I want to be in this one like all these things. And when you find yourself in those moments, is there something that is unique to you that kind of helps you get out of it or reframe it? I mean I love that question first of all. Yeah, I love a reframe yep. From this space of.
I think every person, place, thing, experience that I have in my life is literally a lesson every single person, and it could be big or small. So I try to reframe things when I have these moments of self doubt or this feels like I've grown out of it. Okay, well, if that is the question, If the question is I've grown have I grown out of this space? Answer the question for yourself. But also have you asked the questions? For example, in a friend group. I love that as a as an example in a friend group, if you think you've grown out of it, have you used your words? Have you actually made the effort to be in conversation with these people that have been lifelong friends. Or if something has gone down and it's not great, is the offense so vile that you don't want to have the conversation And it doesn't matter what the answer is, but just know that that's the answer.
If your answer is no, you got to own that. No. Yeah, So if anyone ever asks you got an answer like no, I walked away. So because we live in this time now with the phones, we can just spit off the like first of all, cop out. No, I know, cop out. So you're saying, go, go ask the questions, say the things, Go.
Say the things when you're living through wild times like this, Yes, yes, I think the way that you survive them, the way that you enrich yourself, your humanity, your your human experience, is by asking those questions of yourself and other people.
And you got to be brave. And you do have to be brave.
There's some conversations I'm putting off because I'm too chicken shit to have them.
I know, oh, I know that I got a girl pair. Put my girl pants pretty soon and have them. Because what do you do to do that? Like, how do you do you self talk? Do you give yourself a deadline?
I do like a deadline because hey, accountability love.
I do like a deadline.
But I also, again, being an energy person, I have to feel my way into it.
Yeah.
And nine times out of ten, if I set that deadline and I'm committed to getting there, the moment will show up before the deadline.
Yeah, but that's because I'm.
Like, no, I know that I need to have this conversation. I want to have this conversation. But again, if you ask yourself those questions, need want the why will it change anything?
Mm hmmmm mmm hmm. Those are great because there are a lot of people whose ears are closed. They don't want to be opened. Yeah, or better, worse or whatever. But I just feel like, okay, stop with the going. If you're doing that and you're following that and you're not getting what you need or want from it, that's an awsome. I was gonna say, that's the and having the courage to hear it, not just I was.
I was at a dinner with a director that I love, and we were chatting and we were talking about two very different experiences but similar in the ways that when you're working in groups, sometimes like the group that found you and gave you your start may not always be the group that's like.
Gonna see you and elevate.
Sometimes you got to take a big leap and run away and go do it yourself.
Yeah, it's not unkind to grow, it's not You're not doing anything to that group by leaving. And how you do it is the most important thing. Yes, yes see I love that. Oh my god, you just modeled literally what I do.
Like I sit there and I'm like, cool, birds of you, how are we going to do this? And I like to say, like, it's how you Nine times out of ten it's not necessarily what you're saying, but it's how you're saying is and in a professional capacity and personally, I mean, I'm blunt.
I will say, are you, but I will say it kindly.
Yes, you do the first time, the second time, the third time.
You're pushing you luck. I know I respect that about you. I'm not great at that yet. I'm gonna work in progress in that way, you know. And it's funny because other people. I say this to my kids all the time. They say things, and especially the teenagers. It's not what they're saying the content. The content of what you're saying. The content is totally passable. Yay, good for you. That's a great question to ask, it's how you asked it. And oftentimes and it's made me think, hmm, is there a connection between adolescents and adulthood in this way? They don't hear themselves right? And I feel like I've spent quite a bit of time with adults that I am now understanding as people who do not hear themselves, ding ding ding. And I need to figure out when I can say, oh, they just don't hear themselves, and when I need to say you use me hear yourself, You're not, or rather I'm I'm this is what I'm hearing from you. Does that match up with what you're trying to say? Yeah, because if it doesn't, then we can have a conversation. And if it does, fuck off. You're not for me the road Like I'm done. I can't. Yeah. And and I wish you well. I do. And that's the thing. I love a lot of people from Afar, I really do.
I love a lot of people from Afar because I'm just like, I respect it.
I see it. Yeah, I cannot vibe with that energy. Yeah, it's draining to me. Yeah. And what if you do if you work I mean, you know, I mean, what do you do when you're working with that? Oh? Boundaries a love boundary? Oh but are you one of those people who can like I'm asking for a friend cold. No, I know you're not cold, because I know you, But I'm saying, like, are you able? Is it? Like? Is the boundary kind of like? Because again, we work, we work in an environment where we're doing the scenes and then they call cut and then we go to our cast chairs or our trailers or whatever. But there's still community outside of the scene, right, Yeah, And so when you're working with someone, well, it's just like I'm going to manufacture the example, so it's not in personal right, but like someone who's like they can't stop talking and it's just such a dream, Like everything's wrong. The costume is not right, and the makeup didn't have this, and the coffee is terrible, and like everything's wrong. And I struggle with the fact that I probably am a little bit I'm a little the other direction. I'm like, everything's great. Yeah, you're holding a bagish, it's not that great, right, Okay, I'm just kidding, But it's not dripping on me.
Like the container is fine, the bag is not at all.
Yeah. No, but like when they're doing that, So when you're working and they call it, do you do? You is the boundary, the personal boundary, and then once you start working, you're able, like you're like we're in a different world and so who we are doesn't matter. I've done a couple I've done it a couple of different ways.
I've still very much in process and feel like every time I've made a film, like my choices.
Are a little different.
Yeah, I'm not exceptionally methods. Sometimes my characters like creep in a little bit.
Yeah, yeah, but I'm the type of person that.
If you've caught me on a good day, I'd be like, ugh, babes, I had a joy, and then I will go to crafty and get a snack because yeah, there's my joy.
Yeah yeah yeah, that to me helps put up a boundary joy babes. Yeah, I find a joy. Yeah.
Fine, you catch me on a day where I might have had it a little bit, and it's gonna be.
Like, do you hear yourself? Yeah?
Okay, okay, I mean you're excellent, but do you hear yourself?
Yeah? Cool? And then action, yeah, yeah I have.
I mean, sometimes the choice, depending on who you're dealing with, I mean, sometimes the choice is to just let I.
Know, you know, and that's hard. I know. I'm a helper. I do like me too.
I can't fix anybody's like problems, but I like to support and help if I can well.
And obviously the let them is is so interesting because it's, you know, it hails from just ancient religions and a little bit of stoicism, a little bit this little bit that. But mel Robbins has made it very popular with her book, which is a beautiful book, and we had her on the show and it was very funny because Camilla, we're very in and yang and I wish she was here, and she was like, I'm missing Ariana. But she she was a little bit like and you hear it in the podcast. She's like, I'm like, yes, all on board, Like let them, let them go do their thing. And they could just be talking all sorts of stuff about me somewhere else and I'm just going my fine with that. And she's a little bit like, hold hold on a second. Why do I have to let them? Why do I have to let them? And she she talked to mel and she was like, hmm, no, I don't know about this, like what about this? And what about that? And it was great because I realized that and it's my way. It's okay. I will take the information in and go be the helper and the doer and the fixer and the whatever. And we need those, right, we need those in our communities. We also need the people that are like, oh wait a second, wait a second, prove it, prove it. Why why do you think so? Because then we actually really deeply believe in it. It's been it's been shown to us, it's been proven, it's been questioned. I mean that's the most amazing thing about debate. I love that. I love that when it's in a respectful way, right.
I love that story that maryl tells about Jane Fonda when they were doing Julia, and Meryl was like, well, apparently it was like one of her first films or something. She's so excited to be there, and she's like, goes for rehearsal and she like dad, and they're putting things on the floor and da da dah.
So they do the first first take and it's fabulous.
She's like, Gray, I'm gonna try something new, and she does something completely different.
And then Jane says, Eryl, if you stand on the marks, you will be in the light and then you will be in the movie. It's like, well, I.
Think she told that story at Jane's like afi lifetime achievement ceremony, and it's I've never forgotten it. And in fact, I watched that when I was like on the road doing Bringing On the Musical years ago, because that's how I was like learning, and I never forgot that. I was like, if I ever make a movie, I know that the tape on the floor is my mark, and I need to stand on it.
Because then I will be in the light, I will be in the movie. Yeah, that's exactly right. That was a hard lesson for me to learn, girl, because I liked when I first came into it, When I first came into this business as an as an actual I mean, I'd always been on the sidelines watching it and just like with the literal stars in my eyes, watching all these incredible people do all these incredible things. It was a little bit, I mean a bit, like you said, starting off with something that was just so I mean, it's so hard to come up with the word right. It's like it's not perfect, it's not high end, it's so ideal, like it's an ideal everything. You're working with people who are the best of the best and all that. So you got to be in it as your first like like that you said, first experienced thing. I got to watch from the sidelines, and so in a lot of ways, I thought that's how everybody was, right. I thought everybody brought their best game, their a game, and I thought everybody was like Tom Hanks who famously says, right like, he shows up on time, and by on time, he means a little bit early, a little bit earlier, and he knows his text, which means he knows his lines. Yeah, you ever worked with people who don't know their lines? Yes, it's very hard. It is. Can't be. Can't find it uniquely challenging, It really can't be.
I I have learned, though, and I don't know if this is like a toxic trait.
I will improv to help them find their line. I think that's being a helper. I know. I guess what you do after is probably what's either helpful or not helpful. Really, No, oh, look, I have the privilege of working with the like I don't know.
I just I will when I show up, and I can only speak for myself and what I do. But like when I show up, like, I'm like, nope, I'm going to do whatever I need to do to get the best performance out of me and probably you too.
Yeah, yeah, because that's just what it is.
No I even know, like what you're walking into. I don't enjoy it when other people don't know their lines. I try not to be the person that doesn't know their line.
Yeah, but every once in a while this happens.
You have a bad day and you're just like, what, what's the line?
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it doesn't connect. Yeah, And I'm not trying to blame the writer, but sometimes when it doesn't connect, I actually if it doesn't over and over and over again, I do actually always go I always think of me first, and then I just go, is there, like, am I bumping on this for a reason? Does it not connect to the thing? Why would they say that? Do I not think to say this? Yeah?
Well, and I've I've learned over a couple of years. It's like, oh, this is why I want to get to know the writers i'm working with really well, because I want to understand why they did we did. And I want to also have that like open communication of being able to ask questions because if I don't feel safe on a set to be like home human, homeboy, homegirl, home whatever, person, can we chat?
Yeah?
Because I am busting this up for you, yes, and not the positive way, and I really want to get it right.
Yeah. And I've said that very thing many times.
Yeah, I'm busting it up for you not a great way.
Well, I mean again, just having been on a show for so long where you have so many lines and so you're doing so many pages a day, I mean on a movie you're doing. I mean, yeah for people listening that don't know about this making, yeah, but when you're making a movie, you're probably doing like what a couple pages a day. I mean, if you're doing an action movie, you're doing like half a page a day, and on a television show you're doing nine to I think one days, like twelve pages in a day. So it's a lot of dialogue. It's a lot of dialog. And to be fair, there was an actor who was I was working with. They could not remember their lines to save their life. And the farthest that I went, I didn't just improv. I was like, we're not all going to go home unless this gets done, so let's help get this done. I went over to scripty and I grabbed some blank pages and I wrote down their lines and I taped them to my chest so that they could just because the camera didn't even need to be on them, no, right, it just we just needed them to just say it. It happened, and I drove home that night and I had the same thought like, is this a toxic trait? Is this a toxic date? Helper? Right now?
And it again, compromise, balance, whatever you want to call it, but sometimes you got to get in there and just get it done. Yes, It's like I think about the state of our industry sometimes, and you know, a lot of these shows cost a lot of money. There's a lot of time, a lot of resources, a lot of people are doing so much work to make this thing happen and not I know, we as the actors are the like shiniest part of the.
Front of house. We're the front of house, but we're like the last component.
So many other things got to come together for us to be able to do those things. But that's why when I show up, I'm like, not most of this is not about me. This is just about me doing my part. Sometimes it can become toxic without even knowing it, and it's like you wake up one day and you're.
Like, what happened? We were good? Yeah, it started off so strong. Yeah, like you know, I can see to go back to the where we started with this. You have to have leaders that are morally centered, kind, mindful, efficient, and I mean fill in the business that they're in, right, because they're any other things if they're going to be in certain businesses. But when you have that, when you have that kind of leadership when someone goes awry, right, if mom and dad or mom and mom or dad and dad are driving down the road and the kids are in the back and sisters hitting brother, brothers hitting sister, then what would happen. You'd pull over the car and someone would get life right, same same and the rules of life right. We need the leaders to pull the fucking car over and be like, hey, stop hitting your brother. Yeah, I think, yes, I stop hitting your sister. Kind of love that.
And I mean there are times where I'm just like, again, industry wide, it's not like just movies or just to be or whatever, but there are moments where I'm like, hey.
Guys, whomever you are, whomever my parents are today, Wizard of Oz health help, yes, who made that choice?
Yes you know. And again it's just I think I think we're.
Ideally you'd like it to not be hr for real, for real, but I think we're living in.
Wild times as it is.
So as I'm like moving through the industry trying to do it with as semblance of integrity and whatnot and are maintain my own sense of humanity, It's like I look at that stuff and I look at how companies seem to be run and I try to choose wisely and to find projects, people companies that feel like we have the same.
Ethos, Yes, and that you're matched, right, you're matched in so far as you can, because I think that, you know, I do think it's wild to me that actually there's plenty of people who actually have a terrible reputation but they continue to be hired. Which that's the part that's wild to me. But I actually feel very strongly that it's imperative that you have a good reputation. Like, I care very much. I don't know what that I don't. Maybe that makes me sound like a pigmy, but I don't think I care very much about my reputation. I care very much what it is, what people's experience is of working with me, and that it is and that it is positive. Yeah, I don't. I'm the same.
And it's not as I would be honest in saying, like it used to be from a space of.
Like I have to be liked. If I'm liked, I'll continue to work, which can feel really trivial ye of authorit. But it's actually not that I care what.
People feel and think when they work with me. So in essence, I do care about my reputation because when I come, I am always going with the intention of being a problem solver, of churning in good work. Of I am of maintaining the reality that I am a problem solver, not someone who creates problems.
I'm I'm not the problem.
Yeah yeah, and might rather be known for excellence. Like when she shows up, she does excellent work, she's kind, we have a good time. Energy is not rank Like why would you want that? I was always taught like, be the be the energy in the room you want to work with. So if that's what you really want to work with, my god, fin, I want to get you a rieki session.
Immediately clear your aura.
I can't Like, that's not for me, it's so true, it's so true.
Yeah, well, I think it's you know, I think our our industry also. I mean, I don't know, maybe if this is this is this speaks to when or how I started, But I think that it used to be very focused on the outside, like how things looked. And I still think there's that, you know, that that element. But I think we're entering a time where, in a very positive way, there's just there's there's there's actual room, there's actual space, there's actual desire to hire a lot of different kinds of people. So your looks are different, and because they're different, we're all just getting used to the fact that we live in a real world where we are where we're going to look at things on screen that look like the world around us instead of just looking at one kind of thing. And I think that it's it's so important for the younger people, but I mean the older people, the younger people in between. It's important for everyone. But it's it's changing things. Yeah, it's good. We all have to embrace that change. Yeah, you know.
And that's where like the generations have to find that compromise, right, like the ability to embrace the changes that are necessary we all agree are necessary, Yeah, and start to.
Live into the change. It's and I agree with you.
I think we are saying that, and I think it's important and it should continue to be, Like it's part of that change is how I'm even here.
It's how you met me. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean, Like, that's it's it's good.
I think the fact that we can see that is indicative of something really positive. It's it's our ability, I think, in the midst of all the crazy to continue to embrace the change and be a part of the positive change instead of letting.
All that good, good change, Yeah, slip right on back to what it used to me. Yeah. And the recognition of humanity and the experience of being human, and the experience is being very, very different for every single human. You can't hear yourself the same way. I mean, think about all the things we've talked about in the past hour, where it's like everybody's coming with a different perspective, a set of different set of experiences, a different set of intentions, so many And it's funny. I remember talking to someone who he was a young father and he raised his kid in New York City, and I remember saying like, oh gosh, I hadn't had kids yet. I was like, what's it like to raise a kid in New York City? And it was close. And there's a million things that are really hard about it. But the thing that I love the most is that, you know, my kid is sixteen right now, and you know what word he never says. And he was like, word and he says, he never says the weird he never says, that's weird. I love that because he grew up in New York City. And when you're in New York City and we don't all live in New York City, and it's not like it's the best city in the world except for it is. Yeah, you get to see it all, and by getting to see it all, you don't think anything's weird, because there is nothing that's weird. It's just the experience of being human. And sometimes it looks like this, and sometimes it looks like that. Yeah, okay, so we have to talk about something that looks new, sassy, spicy, special, and it is your hair, my hair, short hair. I don't care, I care, why do I carry? Why do I care? I love this hair. I saw it on the GRAM first. I was old. Is what I think we'reld I think it's bold. I like it.
I no, I love it. I started as short haired girly, and then over the last four years, like was on a long haired journey. And I loved that, like I loved how I felt.
I felt like, you know, it was my armor. You couldn't tell me nothing with them inches. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I got home to New York and a day later I called Ursula Stephens, my fabulous, fabulous hairdresser, was like, chop it and this is what she did.
I started immediately feeling the vibration of liberation as she was cutting my hair off.
And I love it. I love it.
And it's funny because I like grow even more into myself. And there's this part of me that has always been there, but I realized was kind of buried and that part of me doesn't have a name quite yet.
But we're not okay. Please let me know when you when I get there, I'm gonna shoot you, text you like, oh my god, uh huh. But I I don't know.
There's a there's an energy that's living with me right now that I love and it is this haircut, this new and vogue do.
I love the nineties. I love it so much. So I saw you and one of the first things I said to you was, I too have had that hairdo. Yes you did. I'm gonna unearth the picture of it and I'm gonna text you it. Please do, and I'm gonna and we're gonna I'm not even gonna I'm not even gonna tip. I'm not even gonna tell you how I felt about it. I mean from my voice, you don't know if I loved it or but I feel like you've got this good, good job. Well you've got the best. I'm just I'm just gonna just I'm not gonna falsely flatter. I'm going to just tell you that it looks better on you than it did on me. But we're gonna find the photo. I'm gonna find the photo. Mine was more inspired by Wilson Phillips. It was a China Phillips. You know, some day somebody's gonna want by baby. But no, yeah, a lot of that, a lot of that. Yeah, we did that. I I will also say that the fantastic thing about living in this modern age that we live in is that while it's short and you can have this incredible energy. Julian Haff said the same thing, by the way, because I said I I to toy with this, Bob idea great bob is that you in the just in with the with this. All you have to do is in a share for a couple hours and you can have long hair. Again, correct, It's true. Like honestly, I love a wig like I do.
I've worn you wigs for quite a while, Like so great, so easy.
Honestly, I could have long hair tomorrow. You could have a tomorrow, and it's so easy. And most people think that it's they don't understand the magic of it. And I was actually telling the girls. I honestly, I almost made one of them cry by telling them that I did not think that Sabrina Carpenter's hair was probably all hers. She wanted to die. She was, what are you talking about? I said, well, she probably keeps the front out and she was like, what is this language you're speaking? Why are you trying to tell me that Sabrine's hair is not hair, it's Sabraine's hair.
But you know that's the thing though, you again, popstars are real people too, and they have to protect their hair. Yes, Like that's a lot of like doing goes you know what I mean?
Stage light? Yeah, if I was them, i'd probably be wearing a wig too. Yeah, so I think it's I definitely would. I'd have a room full of them, like I don't flash your share? Does? Yes? That makes sense to me, right, Yes, makes so much sense. Yeah, and you just keep Yeah, you pull out the front because I do think that the hairline does give it away. Yeah, I don't. I'm not. I'm not a lace front fan if I'm honest.
Yeah, it looks so, yeah it can nine times out of ten I can see it.
Yeah, yeah, of course you can't.
And I'm very picky about the wigs I wear in film. Yeah, on camera, because ah.
I cannot bad wig well, because listen, a bad anything, a bad wig, a bad prosthetic, it just takes you out of it, girl, don't it. Yeah, that's why the unsung heroes man all those people I'm telling HMU like, oh, not only do they make you look like that, but they also give you all the best gossip.
They do give you the best cause of their Yeah, I love I love a hair and makeup trailer.
I really do. It's the best. But then but then again, you.
Gotta be like it's gonna be okay, guy, every thanks good.
Yeah yeah, yeah, no, don't worry. I do that. I would do that, okay. And also I'm also much more like I definitely always make sure that I'm like I'm an incoming receiver of the information. Yeah, it doesn't go anywhere. I don't. Ever, I'm good at keeping that that that that line. Yeah, you also like, I'm I like to partake in We were talking about this the other day on the show. I like to partake in community building, gossip, like the things that tie us together. Yeah, did you. I'm not a nasty gossiper. No, I don't pass on bad information. But I've been known to come to go up to people who I don't know because someone else said something great about them and be like, you don't know me at all, but this person says that amazing thing about you. Yes, I.
Love you.
Here you are.
I've also done that. I'm pretty sure people look at me like I'm insane. But it's a good insane. It's a good insane, and you're spreading.
Your power is good. Spread joy kindness. It's free, exactly. Yeah. And it's a renewable source resource. It's a renewable resource. I like that. You should put that on a T shirt. There you go, kindness. It's like, call it renewable resource of kindness. That's good. I want you to know that my experience of being with you for the past hour has been very good. I have very much enjoyed this. I will repeat your reputation is in town. I will further your good reputation. Thank you and I yours, as will all the people, no doubt that have listened to this, and thank you, Thank you very much for being here with me. I look forward to every single time I get to see your bright, shining eyes, and you are just one of the greatest gifts to UH, to our industry and being able to watch you. But thank you for being here. And I love you. I love you. Thank you for having me. You're so cool, You're so cool. My friend is amazing. Oh I love my friend. Oh you heard your first All right, Well that's what we call the end of the episode.
