I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years writing about true crime.

I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years writing about true crime.

And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a twenty first century lens.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a twenty first century lens.

Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

This is buried bones. Hey, Paul, we had a humdinger of a story of last week, didn't we have this serial killer?

This is buried bones. Hey, Paul, we had a humdinger of a story of last week, didn't we have this serial killer?

Yeah? You know that.

Yeah? You know that.

That was a fascinating episode for me, you know, in terms of we've got a guy out in la in nineteen fifty seven?

That was a fascinating episode for me, you know, in terms of we've got a guy out in la in nineteen fifty seven?

Is that right?

Is that right?

It's nineteen fifty seven, yeah, but we're pouring into nineteen fifty eight now, unfortunately, So tell me what you remember, because I had a couple of people message me and say, I really like when Paul does a recap. So let's give the listeners what they want. I'm going to make you. We're going to see how closely you listened to me last week.

It's nineteen fifty seven, yeah, but we're pouring into nineteen fifty eight now, unfortunately, So tell me what you remember, because I had a couple of people message me and say, I really like when Paul does a recap. So let's give the listeners what they want. I'm going to make you. We're going to see how closely you listened to me last week.

Well, I do have my crib notes that I kept from you telling me the story, So I do have a cheat sheet. But I don't know if I can weave it as eloquently as you would, but I will.

Well, I do have my crib notes that I kept from you telling me the story, So I do have a cheat sheet. But I don't know if I can weave it as eloquently as you would, but I will.

Go ahead and give it a shot.

Go ahead and give it a shot.

Sure you can.

Sure you can.

In August of nineteen fifty seven, nineteen year old Judy, who is a model. She's a strange from her husband going through a divorce, has a fourteen month old daughter that she's in a custody to dispute with with her strange husband. She needs money. For Judy, who's a model, the way to make money is to model, and so she ends up being picked up by a person who claims to be a photographer and he utilizes the name Johnny Glenn, and a roommate is able to describe Johnny as being five to nine hundred and fifty pounds, all of complected, and he's wearing horned rimmed glasses. She doesn't come home after being picked up, and roommate gets scared reports him missing. Law enforcement isn't able to make much progress in the investigation, and five months later, some kids find some skeletal remains limited skeletal remains basically forearm, wrist, and hands from a single body. Months go by, and then now there is another woman. Her name is Shirley. She's twenty four years old, she's also divorced, has two kids.

In August of nineteen fifty seven, nineteen year old Judy, who is a model. She's a strange from her husband going through a divorce, has a fourteen month old daughter that she's in a custody to dispute with with her strange husband. She needs money. For Judy, who's a model, the way to make money is to model, and so she ends up being picked up by a person who claims to be a photographer and he utilizes the name Johnny Glenn, and a roommate is able to describe Johnny as being five to nine hundred and fifty pounds, all of complected, and he's wearing horned rimmed glasses. She doesn't come home after being picked up, and roommate gets scared reports him missing. Law enforcement isn't able to make much progress in the investigation, and five months later, some kids find some skeletal remains limited skeletal remains basically forearm, wrist, and hands from a single body. Months go by, and then now there is another woman. Her name is Shirley. She's twenty four years old, she's also divorced, has two kids.

And she goes out on a date.

And she goes out on a date.

That is set up through this Lonely Hearts club and she's picked up by a man who goes by the name of George Williams. And George had actually dated another woman from this Lonely Hearts club about two weeks prior, and that woman got home fine, but Shirley never comes home, nor does she make it to the dance that George was supposed to take her to. And we actually have two different descriptions of this man the woman that he dated two weeks prior, as well as the description of the man from Shirley's mom who was home and she got picked up by George. And these descriptions are somewhat varied, but as I talked about in the first episode, I think they fall within you know, the general variables that you get from different witnesses describing the same man. And you showed me images of two composites, and quite frankly, to my eyes, those two composits look like the same man. And we know we have a serial killer in this case. And at this point I think you're going to start talking to me about more of the investigation and maybe more victims.

That is set up through this Lonely Hearts club and she's picked up by a man who goes by the name of George Williams. And George had actually dated another woman from this Lonely Hearts club about two weeks prior, and that woman got home fine, but Shirley never comes home, nor does she make it to the dance that George was supposed to take her to. And we actually have two different descriptions of this man the woman that he dated two weeks prior, as well as the description of the man from Shirley's mom who was home and she got picked up by George. And these descriptions are somewhat varied, but as I talked about in the first episode, I think they fall within you know, the general variables that you get from different witnesses describing the same man. And you showed me images of two composites, and quite frankly, to my eyes, those two composits look like the same man. And we know we have a serial killer in this case. And at this point I think you're going to start talking to me about more of the investigation and maybe more victims.

You nailed it, got everything right. I was waiting to see if you were going to miss something up, and you didn't.

You nailed it, got everything right. I was waiting to see if you were going to miss something up, and you didn't.

I passed the test.

I passed the test.

Your notes are great. I mean, I know, I see you scribbling all the time, and sometimes I wonder if he's doing like a cartoon sketch or something. I'm talking. Okay. We continued to be in LA, which now makes me scared to be in LA in general, because women keep going missing. And you know, as you said, we're still looking for Ruth and Shirley. We still have not identified those bones. And about a year to the day when Judy has gone missing, and this is four months after Shirley has gone missing, a landlord at at LA boarding house is very concerned about one of his tenants. It is July twenty seventh, and now we're in nineteen fifty eight, and this is a woman named Ruth Mercado. She's a model, just like Judy and she had just turned twenty four three days earlier. So all of these women are in the same age range and sort of physical attributes. The landlord is concerned because he hasn't seen Ruth in four days, and he finally decides to go in and check on her when he goes into the room. So this is a boarding house, This isn't even a formal apartment. She isn't there, but she has a couple of pets. There's a small dog and two parakeets, and they are all in distress. They haven't been fed or given water in four days. It sounds like the landlord calls the police about Ruth's disappearance. Talk to me just about that scene in general. So we don't know yet if Ruth had been taken from this boarding house or you know, if she met somebody out, but she clearly, whatever happened, did not intend to leave her animal behind.

Your notes are great. I mean, I know, I see you scribbling all the time, and sometimes I wonder if he's doing like a cartoon sketch or something. I'm talking. Okay. We continued to be in LA, which now makes me scared to be in LA in general, because women keep going missing. And you know, as you said, we're still looking for Ruth and Shirley. We still have not identified those bones. And about a year to the day when Judy has gone missing, and this is four months after Shirley has gone missing, a landlord at at LA boarding house is very concerned about one of his tenants. It is July twenty seventh, and now we're in nineteen fifty eight, and this is a woman named Ruth Mercado. She's a model, just like Judy and she had just turned twenty four three days earlier. So all of these women are in the same age range and sort of physical attributes. The landlord is concerned because he hasn't seen Ruth in four days, and he finally decides to go in and check on her when he goes into the room. So this is a boarding house, This isn't even a formal apartment. She isn't there, but she has a couple of pets. There's a small dog and two parakeets, and they are all in distress. They haven't been fed or given water in four days. It sounds like the landlord calls the police about Ruth's disappearance. Talk to me just about that scene in general. So we don't know yet if Ruth had been taken from this boarding house or you know, if she met somebody out, but she clearly, whatever happened, did not intend to leave her animal behind.

Right, And I think that that's the critical factor there, because you know, Ruth, being twenty four years old, she's an adult.

Right, And I think that that's the critical factor there, because you know, Ruth, being twenty four years old, she's an adult.

She can go off on her own.

She can go off on her own.

I can't imagine with a boarding house if she had any reporting requirements back to the landlord that would cause him to end up reporting her missing. But the observation that she obviously hasn't been taking care of her pets, you know, that's that's the red flag in this scenario. So now law enforcement is going to respond and it's having to now reconstruct what happened. You know, is there any evidence within this room of violence? Is there evidence of a struggle? If those are absent, then it's also okay, So who last saw Ruth?

I can't imagine with a boarding house if she had any reporting requirements back to the landlord that would cause him to end up reporting her missing. But the observation that she obviously hasn't been taking care of her pets, you know, that's that's the red flag in this scenario. So now law enforcement is going to respond and it's having to now reconstruct what happened. You know, is there any evidence within this room of violence? Is there evidence of a struggle? If those are absent, then it's also okay, So who last saw Ruth?

Where was she last going?

Where was she last going?

If she left voluntarily, is there any indisha, you know, any writings.

If she left voluntarily, is there any indisha, you know, any writings.

Let's say she took.

Let's say she took.

A you know, back in nineteen fifty seven, a landline phone call and on a notepad wrote down a name and a number or address. You know, that's information that the investigators are going to gobble up and now go track that person or those persons down. They have to really spend a lot of time reconstructing Ruth's life in the last few days before she disappeared.

A you know, back in nineteen fifty seven, a landline phone call and on a notepad wrote down a name and a number or address. You know, that's information that the investigators are going to gobble up and now go track that person or those persons down. They have to really spend a lot of time reconstructing Ruth's life in the last few days before she disappeared.

And I think they have no information Paul essentially about Ruth. That's who we had the least amount of information about. Right now, let me tell you what the police say when the landlord calls and says, listen, I've had this tenant, I haven't seen her in four days, and now we've got these animals that clearly have not been fed or watered in four days. The police show up and they don't see anything really amiss. It doesn't sound like there's even fourth century into the apartment. Nothing has been turned over, doesn't look like anything has been taken. But they do look around the apartment and they find nude photos of Ruth. It sounds like she was a burlessed type dancer. And even though the media pick up on this and the police say they're investigating, I just don't get the sense that it's with the same level of interest and intensity as with Judy and Shirley. It sounds like when they saw those nude photos of her and sort of a burlesque type show, the interest from both the police and the media went down quite a bit and they couldn't connect her. They didn't even think about connecting her with these other two missing women.

And I think they have no information Paul essentially about Ruth. That's who we had the least amount of information about. Right now, let me tell you what the police say when the landlord calls and says, listen, I've had this tenant, I haven't seen her in four days, and now we've got these animals that clearly have not been fed or watered in four days. The police show up and they don't see anything really amiss. It doesn't sound like there's even fourth century into the apartment. Nothing has been turned over, doesn't look like anything has been taken. But they do look around the apartment and they find nude photos of Ruth. It sounds like she was a burlessed type dancer. And even though the media pick up on this and the police say they're investigating, I just don't get the sense that it's with the same level of interest and intensity as with Judy and Shirley. It sounds like when they saw those nude photos of her and sort of a burlesque type show, the interest from both the police and the media went down quite a bit and they couldn't connect her. They didn't even think about connecting her with these other two missing women.

Yeah, you know, from that era, I can see that happening. In essence, law enforcement very rapidly moved off of what they would classify what we really do classify as high risk victims. Back in the day, the mindset was we need to spend our resources elsewhere, and it's just such an unfortunate thing that that's what happens. I think, you know, immediately, of course, as we're talking about these victims, for a proper investigation, you're trying to track down or who knew Ruth. You know, did anybody within the boarding house know her? Did she have any friends? You know, what did she tell these people that she's interacting with the fact that she is also a model, you know, did she have any jobs? The victimology is huge, you know, and so a proper investigation would have been included all that. But it sounds like, oh, she's into this burlesque type of aspect and we're just going to move on.

Yeah, you know, from that era, I can see that happening. In essence, law enforcement very rapidly moved off of what they would classify what we really do classify as high risk victims. Back in the day, the mindset was we need to spend our resources elsewhere, and it's just such an unfortunate thing that that's what happens. I think, you know, immediately, of course, as we're talking about these victims, for a proper investigation, you're trying to track down or who knew Ruth. You know, did anybody within the boarding house know her? Did she have any friends? You know, what did she tell these people that she's interacting with the fact that she is also a model, you know, did she have any jobs? The victimology is huge, you know, and so a proper investigation would have been included all that. But it sounds like, oh, she's into this burlesque type of aspect and we're just going to move on.

Yeah, and this is the only case, and I'm you know, I'll tell you these are all connected. Of course, this is the only case we have where a man has not been seen. You know. In this case, nobody saw a man come to her apartment. Nobody remembers her saying I've got a photography gig. No one knows, you know, if she left with the intention of coming back. She literally vanished and left these animals that she loved behind, and the police didn't seem particularly motivated, and you know, they're not making any headway in the meantime with Judy and with Shirley. You know, I'm sure they suspect that Judy is the person who was found the bones, you know, that were found by the two little boys. But there were other missing women. So it's it's still a big mystery for them, you.

Yeah, and this is the only case, and I'm you know, I'll tell you these are all connected. Of course, this is the only case we have where a man has not been seen. You know. In this case, nobody saw a man come to her apartment. Nobody remembers her saying I've got a photography gig. No one knows, you know, if she left with the intention of coming back. She literally vanished and left these animals that she loved behind, and the police didn't seem particularly motivated, and you know, they're not making any headway in the meantime with Judy and with Shirley. You know, I'm sure they suspect that Judy is the person who was found the bones, you know, that were found by the two little boys. But there were other missing women. So it's it's still a big mystery for them, you.

Know, And I think that that, you know, that's just something I want to point out is we are also talking Los Angeles, and so right now we have focused in on these these three women that have gone missing. Imagine the number of missing persons even in nineteen fifty seven in a city the size of Los Angeles. You know, law enforcement, they're they're looking at these cases. Each one of them are individually needles in this massive haystack of caseload. So, you know, I think with Ruth, I mean the fact that, like in the prior to cases, there was Judy and Shirley had family that were engaged at certain levels. Right with Ruth, right now, it doesn't sound like there's any family. There's nobody that's going, hey, there's something really wrong here. It's a landlord of a boarding home.

Know, And I think that that, you know, that's just something I want to point out is we are also talking Los Angeles, and so right now we have focused in on these these three women that have gone missing. Imagine the number of missing persons even in nineteen fifty seven in a city the size of Los Angeles. You know, law enforcement, they're they're looking at these cases. Each one of them are individually needles in this massive haystack of caseload. So, you know, I think with Ruth, I mean the fact that, like in the prior to cases, there was Judy and Shirley had family that were engaged at certain levels. Right with Ruth, right now, it doesn't sound like there's any family. There's nobody that's going, hey, there's something really wrong here. It's a landlord of a boarding home.

Well, we are having, you know a problem connecting everything. We're having a problem finding you know, these two, well, now three women. I feel for the police in nineteen fifty seven, fifty eight, with the exception of not investigating Ruth's case right enough. We now have a fourth victim, and I have a lot of detail because thank god, this one is a survivor and a hero as far as I'm concerned. And you're going to find out why, because this is an amazing story. So you know, I was going to sort of like lead up to the fact that this woman made it out alive, but there's so much detail you would have suspected that, and you would have said, okay, well, obviously she survived. When I watched Zodiac with one of my girls, she said, oh my gosh, are they both And I had not really told her about the story, and we were, you know, watching them the first couple, and she said, are they both gonna die? And I said, no, I don't think so. And she said why And I said, well, this is a lot of detail. So if neither of them survived, how would we have known this. There's no CCTV. How would we have known this had happened unless either the killer said something or somebody survived, and then, of course we knew with the zodiac in the first couple somebody survived. So I like being mysterious, but I want to be realistic at the.

Well, we are having, you know a problem connecting everything. We're having a problem finding you know, these two, well, now three women. I feel for the police in nineteen fifty seven, fifty eight, with the exception of not investigating Ruth's case right enough. We now have a fourth victim, and I have a lot of detail because thank god, this one is a survivor and a hero as far as I'm concerned. And you're going to find out why, because this is an amazing story. So you know, I was going to sort of like lead up to the fact that this woman made it out alive, but there's so much detail you would have suspected that, and you would have said, okay, well, obviously she survived. When I watched Zodiac with one of my girls, she said, oh my gosh, are they both And I had not really told her about the story, and we were, you know, watching them the first couple, and she said, are they both gonna die? And I said, no, I don't think so. And she said why And I said, well, this is a lot of detail. So if neither of them survived, how would we have known this. There's no CCTV. How would we have known this had happened unless either the killer said something or somebody survived, and then, of course we knew with the zodiac in the first couple somebody survived. So I like being mysterious, but I want to be realistic at the.

Same time, When does this case happen? How much longer after Ruth?

Same time, When does this case happen? How much longer after Ruth?

Three months later after Ruth? So now we are a year and a couple of months after our first case, which was Judy. So this is October twenty seventh, nineteen fifty eight. This is a twenty eight year old woman. Her name is Lorraine Vijel, and she is This is a familiar story. This is her very first modeling gig and she's part of a small agency that she's just started working with. The agency contacts her and says, there's a photographer who's going to pick her up at the house. Now I don't know if this is what happened with Judy or well, it wouldn't have been Sureley. It would have been Judy with the first modeling gig, and we don't know if that's what happened with Ruth. But this is the first time I've heard of an agency being involved. It looks like he contacted an agency and said I need a photographer. I need a model for a shoot, and they hooked him up with Lorraine. So this guy shows up. His name is Frank Johnson. You know, now we've got again, you know, a series of disappearances involving a photographer. So Lorraine says they're supposed to go to his studio that Lorraine is familiar with and take pictures. But when she gets in the car and they start driving, he doesn't go toward Hollywood. She's trying to direct him toward the studio because she's worked at the studio before, and she asked, Frank, why aren't you going in the right direction, and he said, well, I want to use my home studio instead. She says she knew something was really wrong when he gets on the Santa Ana Freeway. He starts driving very fast. He stops at a desolate exit and pulls over. He says, I've got a flat tire. But then he pulls out a gun. He pulls out a piss so he says, do what I tell you to do, and you're not going to get hurt, and he pulls out a piece of rope to tie her hands together. She fights, and she grabs the gun. They start struggling in the front seat. The gun goes off and the bullet grazes Lorraine's thigh. She opens a passenger drawer and they both fall out onto the ground. On this desolate exit stop, they are in sight of passing cars, but nobody stops. They're driving by, and there's like in a hand in hand battle on the ground over this gun, and nobody is stopping along this highway. She bites his hand that is holding the gun. He lets the gun go, she grabs it and she holds him at gunpoint, and eventually highway patrolmencome.

Three months later after Ruth? So now we are a year and a couple of months after our first case, which was Judy. So this is October twenty seventh, nineteen fifty eight. This is a twenty eight year old woman. Her name is Lorraine Vijel, and she is This is a familiar story. This is her very first modeling gig and she's part of a small agency that she's just started working with. The agency contacts her and says, there's a photographer who's going to pick her up at the house. Now I don't know if this is what happened with Judy or well, it wouldn't have been Sureley. It would have been Judy with the first modeling gig, and we don't know if that's what happened with Ruth. But this is the first time I've heard of an agency being involved. It looks like he contacted an agency and said I need a photographer. I need a model for a shoot, and they hooked him up with Lorraine. So this guy shows up. His name is Frank Johnson. You know, now we've got again, you know, a series of disappearances involving a photographer. So Lorraine says they're supposed to go to his studio that Lorraine is familiar with and take pictures. But when she gets in the car and they start driving, he doesn't go toward Hollywood. She's trying to direct him toward the studio because she's worked at the studio before, and she asked, Frank, why aren't you going in the right direction, and he said, well, I want to use my home studio instead. She says she knew something was really wrong when he gets on the Santa Ana Freeway. He starts driving very fast. He stops at a desolate exit and pulls over. He says, I've got a flat tire. But then he pulls out a gun. He pulls out a piss so he says, do what I tell you to do, and you're not going to get hurt, and he pulls out a piece of rope to tie her hands together. She fights, and she grabs the gun. They start struggling in the front seat. The gun goes off and the bullet grazes Lorraine's thigh. She opens a passenger drawer and they both fall out onto the ground. On this desolate exit stop, they are in sight of passing cars, but nobody stops. They're driving by, and there's like in a hand in hand battle on the ground over this gun, and nobody is stopping along this highway. She bites his hand that is holding the gun. He lets the gun go, she grabs it and she holds him at gunpoint, and eventually highway patrolmencome.

Wow.

Wow.

I mean, Lorraine blood coming down, her leg, scraped up, scared to death, and is holding this guy ready to blow his brains out until the highway patrol shows up. Because I'm sure at that point people are passing by and seeing this woman holding a gun on a guy on the ground. And now finally we get the police to show up. What do you think about that? I mean, what a story.

I mean, Lorraine blood coming down, her leg, scraped up, scared to death, and is holding this guy ready to blow his brains out until the highway patrol shows up. Because I'm sure at that point people are passing by and seeing this woman holding a gun on a guy on the ground. And now finally we get the police to show up. What do you think about that? I mean, what a story.

That's actually amazing. I'm surprised she didn't kill them, almost like an act of passion. She's got to be so scared and so enraged at the same time. You know, now she's got the upper hand with the firearm, Yeah, in some ways, that speaks all of us. Speaks to Lorraine having sort of a wherewithal of understanding the dire circumstances she's in. And I always say, never let somebody bind you. You fight at that moment, even if they've got a gun on you, because if they're binding you, then they are probably going to do horrific things to you once they have you under complete physical control. You can't fight back when you're bound. So the fact that Lorraine engaged so early on that just speaks volumes to the courage that she had in that very scary moment. You didn't describe, I mean, you describe Lorraine as a model, So I imagine she's probably the same stature as the other gals you know in that five two five four. Yeah, you had one hundred and ten hundred and thirty pound type of range. So it sounds like she was able to put up enough of a physical resistance against this guy. You know, he's not somebody that's just just so monstrously overpowering that she was able to, you know, get the gun away and hold him at gunpoint.

That's actually amazing. I'm surprised she didn't kill them, almost like an act of passion. She's got to be so scared and so enraged at the same time. You know, now she's got the upper hand with the firearm, Yeah, in some ways, that speaks all of us. Speaks to Lorraine having sort of a wherewithal of understanding the dire circumstances she's in. And I always say, never let somebody bind you. You fight at that moment, even if they've got a gun on you, because if they're binding you, then they are probably going to do horrific things to you once they have you under complete physical control. You can't fight back when you're bound. So the fact that Lorraine engaged so early on that just speaks volumes to the courage that she had in that very scary moment. You didn't describe, I mean, you describe Lorraine as a model, So I imagine she's probably the same stature as the other gals you know in that five two five four. Yeah, you had one hundred and ten hundred and thirty pound type of range. So it sounds like she was able to put up enough of a physical resistance against this guy. You know, he's not somebody that's just just so monstrously overpowering that she was able to, you know, get the gun away and hold him at gunpoint.

And does he just sit there?

And does he just sit there?

I think he does. And I'm guessing people are starting to pull over and at some point, you know, the highway patrol come because people are shopping, and you know, saying that he needs to come. I think he's just petrified. Maybe yeah, And you're right, she's pissed. And he is not a big guy. We've talked about that. He's five nine and one hundred and fifty pounds, but that doesn't mean anything. And you know, you and I have talked about when we've talked about the Colonial Parkway killer. We didn't do that as an official episode, but you know, you and I have talked about these sort of people who take over couples. I always think, how do you have the balls to do that? One person controlling two people? And you say, well, you know, when you have a weapon and you're intimidating them, And he must have just thought that this gun was going to be enough, and she clearly had a fight or flight moment and overtook him, which was great.

I think he does. And I'm guessing people are starting to pull over and at some point, you know, the highway patrol come because people are shopping, and you know, saying that he needs to come. I think he's just petrified. Maybe yeah, And you're right, she's pissed. And he is not a big guy. We've talked about that. He's five nine and one hundred and fifty pounds, but that doesn't mean anything. And you know, you and I have talked about when we've talked about the Colonial Parkway killer. We didn't do that as an official episode, but you know, you and I have talked about these sort of people who take over couples. I always think, how do you have the balls to do that? One person controlling two people? And you say, well, you know, when you have a weapon and you're intimidating them, And he must have just thought that this gun was going to be enough, and she clearly had a fight or flight moment and overtook him, which was great.

Yeah, you know, and the likelihood is with the other victims, you know, he probably pulled a gun on them, you know, and was expecting the same type of compliance from Lorraine, and she surprised him and he wasn't ready to handle that in many ways this. I mean, yeah, there's no question that Lorraine, you know this, she is a hero in terms of the action she took. And I'm assuming now this offender is taken into custody by CHP.

Yeah, you know, and the likelihood is with the other victims, you know, he probably pulled a gun on them, you know, and was expecting the same type of compliance from Lorraine, and she surprised him and he wasn't ready to handle that in many ways this. I mean, yeah, there's no question that Lorraine, you know this, she is a hero in terms of the action she took. And I'm assuming now this offender is taken into custody by CHP.

He is and I know that this seems like this could be the end of the story. You know, I've told you this is a serial killer. He is. We've kind of gone through all the victims, but not quite. There's more to this story. That is so in your wheelhouse. There's you know, the criminal profiling part of it, and then there's potentially other victims. So yes, Lorraine is holding him with a gun to him, and the highway patrolman take this guy and they turn him over to Orange County Sheriff's Department, and they find out that his name is Harvey Glatman, and I think, you yeah, so you're shaking your nodding your head. So I was wondering if this was somebody you had heard of before, because it's California and it's you know, in this time period. I know you're familiar with some cases, bigger cases in California. Had you heard of him before, Harvey Glatman?

He is and I know that this seems like this could be the end of the story. You know, I've told you this is a serial killer. He is. We've kind of gone through all the victims, but not quite. There's more to this story. That is so in your wheelhouse. There's you know, the criminal profiling part of it, and then there's potentially other victims. So yes, Lorraine is holding him with a gun to him, and the highway patrolman take this guy and they turn him over to Orange County Sheriff's Department, and they find out that his name is Harvey Glatman, and I think, you yeah, so you're shaking your nodding your head. So I was wondering if this was somebody you had heard of before, because it's California and it's you know, in this time period. I know you're familiar with some cases, bigger cases in California. Had you heard of him before, Harvey Glatman?

I had, of course, you know, the names of his victims and some of the circumstances, the details that you're providing on these cases didn't make me clue in or this is this is Harvey Glatman. However, I am familiar with him as a serial killer, you know, notably that he did he was a photographer, and there's other serial killers that I worked that did this same.

I had, of course, you know, the names of his victims and some of the circumstances, the details that you're providing on these cases didn't make me clue in or this is this is Harvey Glatman. However, I am familiar with him as a serial killer, you know, notably that he did he was a photographer, and there's other serial killers that I worked that did this same.

Type of ruse.

Type of ruse.

Yeah, and you know, Glatman, I don't know if he comes off as particularly charming, but he is definitely someone that a lot of women thought, you know, had had something to offer them, and he really drew them in. He was thirty. He was actually a television repairman. You know. I'll tell you a little bit more about him. He's an interesting character because he is questioned for four days and by Thursday, October thirtieth, Harvey Glatman has admitted to the murders of Judy and Shirley and Ruth. And I don't get it. Why did he confess?

Yeah, and you know, Glatman, I don't know if he comes off as particularly charming, but he is definitely someone that a lot of women thought, you know, had had something to offer them, and he really drew them in. He was thirty. He was actually a television repairman. You know. I'll tell you a little bit more about him. He's an interesting character because he is questioned for four days and by Thursday, October thirtieth, Harvey Glatman has admitted to the murders of Judy and Shirley and Ruth. And I don't get it. Why did he confess?

Well, he must know the gigs up. I mean, he's caught red handed with Lorraine.

Well, he must know the gigs up. I mean, he's caught red handed with Lorraine.

But they don't have proof of anything, Paul. I mean, he could have just said listen, things got a little rough, and you know, they're not connecting him to these other women. I don't think. I think he is saying I did this, and they're kind of going, what okay?

But they don't have proof of anything, Paul. I mean, he could have just said listen, things got a little rough, and you know, they're not connecting him to these other women. I don't think. I think he is saying I did this, and they're kind of going, what okay?

You know.

You know.

I think it really comes down to his you know, inner motivations and if he is, if he is somebody that is looking for attention, somebody like Dennis Raider BTK, I could see where he would confess because he's going, yeah, I did this, you know, I want the notoriety of being this serial killer.

I think it really comes down to his you know, inner motivations and if he is, if he is somebody that is looking for attention, somebody like Dennis Raider BTK, I could see where he would confess because he's going, yeah, I did this, you know, I want the notoriety of being this serial killer.

You know.

You know.

I also am wondering how the LA interrogation was back in nineteen fifty seven. It probably wasn't a very cordial or pleasant for him.

I also am wondering how the LA interrogation was back in nineteen fifty seven. It probably wasn't a very cordial or pleasant for him.

Little third degree, is what you mean?

Little third degree, is what you mean?

I think, Well, I keep having flashes of that movie La Confidential.

I think, Well, I keep having flashes of that movie La Confidential.

You know, for the cases.

You know, for the cases.

It's awesome that he's saying he's admitting, but he also the cases still need to be proved against him.

It's awesome that he's saying he's admitting, but he also the cases still need to be proved against him.

Is he providing details?

Is he providing details?

Is he able to lead investigators to the rest of Judy's body?

Is he able to lead investigators to the rest of Judy's body?

You know?

You know?

Does he give the specifics on how he interacted with each of these women on the nights that are the days that he picked them up, and what did he do and et cetera. So there's still a lot of information that he has to provide up and beyond just saying I did it.

Does he give the specifics on how he interacted with each of these women on the nights that are the days that he picked them up, and what did he do and et cetera. So there's still a lot of information that he has to provide up and beyond just saying I did it.

I first want for us to go back to the very famous dual sketches that we have, and let's compare them to what Glatman looks like. Because I had been on the bins and needles, I thought, well, are these accurate or not? Because we in my packet they didn't include an actual picture of Glatman, and so I did my own little thingy where I put the sketches on one side and him on the other. So what do you think about this?

I first want for us to go back to the very famous dual sketches that we have, and let's compare them to what Glatman looks like. Because I had been on the bins and needles, I thought, well, are these accurate or not? Because we in my packet they didn't include an actual picture of Glatman, and so I did my own little thingy where I put the sketches on one side and him on the other. So what do you think about this?

Wow?

Wow?

Yeah, so I am seeing you know, the two sketches that you showed me the last time, and then seeing Glatman on the right hand side. This is a headshot of Glatman. It shows he's got his glasses on. And side by side, these two composites are probably as good of composites as I've ever seen, matching Glatman. The hairline from the composites a spot on with Glatman's hair. The length of his face is a little bit more squished in than the composites. But the protruding ears, the prominent nose, you know, the mouth, the eyes, you know everything about the composites. I mean, these are good. They really do look like Glatman.

Yeah, so I am seeing you know, the two sketches that you showed me the last time, and then seeing Glatman on the right hand side. This is a headshot of Glatman. It shows he's got his glasses on. And side by side, these two composites are probably as good of composites as I've ever seen, matching Glatman. The hairline from the composites a spot on with Glatman's hair. The length of his face is a little bit more squished in than the composites. But the protruding ears, the prominent nose, you know, the mouth, the eyes, you know everything about the composites. I mean, these are good. They really do look like Glatman.

Fantastic sketch artists, both of them, and fantastic witnesses. I mean, people, boy, this is like for me textbook on how accurate things can be. This is great. I wanted to get this out of the way before we talk about Glatman and what he says happened with all of this. So, as I said, he eventually confessed. We don't know if this was the act of the third degree, but you know, they did get a confession out of him, So we do know stuff about Glatman when he was a kid, and I figure, let's get the stuff about the women taken care of and then we can talk a little bit about him because I know that we talk about the myths behind serial killers and we'll see kind of where he falls along those lines for you, all right, sounds good. So Latman says that he strangled each one of these women with the same piece of rope, and that's something that they end up finding in his apartment. He, as I said, is thirty. He was a television repairman. And when he confesses, they say, where are they? We found some bones and that's about it. We don't know if Judy was that woman that we found. We don't know where Shirley and we don't know where Ruth are. And he said, well, let me illuminate a little bit for you.

Fantastic sketch artists, both of them, and fantastic witnesses. I mean, people, boy, this is like for me textbook on how accurate things can be. This is great. I wanted to get this out of the way before we talk about Glatman and what he says happened with all of this. So, as I said, he eventually confessed. We don't know if this was the act of the third degree, but you know, they did get a confession out of him, So we do know stuff about Glatman when he was a kid, and I figure, let's get the stuff about the women taken care of and then we can talk a little bit about him because I know that we talk about the myths behind serial killers and we'll see kind of where he falls along those lines for you, all right, sounds good. So Latman says that he strangled each one of these women with the same piece of rope, and that's something that they end up finding in his apartment. He, as I said, is thirty. He was a television repairman. And when he confesses, they say, where are they? We found some bones and that's about it. We don't know if Judy was that woman that we found. We don't know where Shirley and we don't know where Ruth are. And he said, well, let me illuminate a little bit for you.

Here.

Here.

He takes them to a remote part of the Anza Desert State Park in the Colorado Desert, not far from San Diego, and that's where they find the remains of two women because of, you know, the corner of San Diego County coroner says that because of the decomposition and the animal activity that he said, the bodies were a little more than we're a little more than a bag of bones. But they tentatively identified them as Ruth and Shirley. And he said that from what Ladman had told them, they can identify the bones found six months earlier by those two boys, which we thought was Judy. So he has said, you know, here are all three of them, and took them directly to it. So that's proof positive, I'm assuming right.

He takes them to a remote part of the Anza Desert State Park in the Colorado Desert, not far from San Diego, and that's where they find the remains of two women because of, you know, the corner of San Diego County coroner says that because of the decomposition and the animal activity that he said, the bodies were a little more than we're a little more than a bag of bones. But they tentatively identified them as Ruth and Shirley. And he said that from what Ladman had told them, they can identify the bones found six months earlier by those two boys, which we thought was Judy. So he has said, you know, here are all three of them, and took them directly to it. So that's proof positive, I'm assuming right.

Oh, absolutely, Now does he bring them to the rest of Judy's remains.

Oh, absolutely, Now does he bring them to the rest of Judy's remains.

That's not the impression I got. He said this is where she was. I think they thought there was not going to be anything left there. I'm assuming they combed that area where her bones were found initially. So then this is where things get difficult for me. I mean, I have never seen these kinds of photos before. He decided that he was going to photograph these women, basically moments before he murdered them. So the newspapers inexplicably printed these photos. It just makes me nauseous. And these are not photos I'm going to put on social media. If listeners want to find them, they can, but I'm not going to do it. It's as upsetting to me to see them, almost more upsetting than to see the bodies of women. Because there's especially one and I'm going to show you now, there's one photo where a woman looks absolutely terrified, and it's Judy. But we see all three of them, so I'm going to show you what he did. And they find these photos along with the rope in his apartment. So the title of this is Madman's own pictures of the girls he killed. So, Paul, the woman on the upper left is Shirley, the woman on the right is Judy, and the woman on the bottom is Ruth. And they all appear to be alive right now, So.

That's not the impression I got. He said this is where she was. I think they thought there was not going to be anything left there. I'm assuming they combed that area where her bones were found initially. So then this is where things get difficult for me. I mean, I have never seen these kinds of photos before. He decided that he was going to photograph these women, basically moments before he murdered them. So the newspapers inexplicably printed these photos. It just makes me nauseous. And these are not photos I'm going to put on social media. If listeners want to find them, they can, but I'm not going to do it. It's as upsetting to me to see them, almost more upsetting than to see the bodies of women. Because there's especially one and I'm going to show you now, there's one photo where a woman looks absolutely terrified, and it's Judy. But we see all three of them, so I'm going to show you what he did. And they find these photos along with the rope in his apartment. So the title of this is Madman's own pictures of the girls he killed. So, Paul, the woman on the upper left is Shirley, the woman on the right is Judy, and the woman on the bottom is Ruth. And they all appear to be alive right now, So.

Yeah, I'm looking at these photos, which you know, again for them to have been published in the newspaper is very, very insensitive to the victims and the victims loved ones. The horror of these photos. We're seeing these women in the last moments of their life, and at least with particularly with Judy, her sitting you know, in this chair and she's got a gig, her hands are bound behind her back, her her knees are bound. You can see the fear in her eyes as she's looking kind of up to her left, and that's probably where Glatman is actually standing. And he's taking a photo using you know, probably a cable attached to the camera on a tripods. That's interesting that he's standing. He's not like standing there with the camera and photographing her because I bet she's she's engaged with where he's at. This photo of Judy, of the three we talked about in the first episode, those True Detective magazines, this is exactly the type a photo, the type of imagery that's in the true detective magazines. That's why these guys liked those magazines. Glatman is in essence making his own imagery, yeah, purposefully with these women bound like this and with the fear on their faces, because that's what he is getting off on. You know, all of them are fully clothed at the time these photos are taken, but they're all bound gagged.

Yeah, I'm looking at these photos, which you know, again for them to have been published in the newspaper is very, very insensitive to the victims and the victims loved ones. The horror of these photos. We're seeing these women in the last moments of their life, and at least with particularly with Judy, her sitting you know, in this chair and she's got a gig, her hands are bound behind her back, her her knees are bound. You can see the fear in her eyes as she's looking kind of up to her left, and that's probably where Glatman is actually standing. And he's taking a photo using you know, probably a cable attached to the camera on a tripods. That's interesting that he's standing. He's not like standing there with the camera and photographing her because I bet she's she's engaged with where he's at. This photo of Judy, of the three we talked about in the first episode, those True Detective magazines, this is exactly the type a photo, the type of imagery that's in the true detective magazines. That's why these guys liked those magazines. Glatman is in essence making his own imagery, yeah, purposefully with these women bound like this and with the fear on their faces, because that's what he is getting off on. You know, all of them are fully clothed at the time these photos are taken, but they're all bound gagged.

I can see the one on the upper left. Surely I had a hard time seeing it, but I can definitely see a gag around her mouth. There's like a shadow or something going on there.

I can see the one on the upper left. Surely I had a hard time seeing it, but I can definitely see a gag around her mouth. There's like a shadow or something going on there.

She's outside, yeah, you know, Judy's the only one that's inside. She's you know, sitting up in this chair. And then you have Shirley and Ruth, who are laying mostly on their back, you know, but bound identical manner, you know, around the ankles, around the knees, hands behind their back, the game eggs around their mouth.

She's outside, yeah, you know, Judy's the only one that's inside. She's you know, sitting up in this chair. And then you have Shirley and Ruth, who are laying mostly on their back, you know, but bound identical manner, you know, around the ankles, around the knees, hands behind their back, the game eggs around their mouth.

And we know that Glatman.

And we know that Glatman.

After these photos sexually assaults them and then strangles them. And it's very interesting behaviorally that he utilizes the same length of rope as the murder weapon in all three cases. So he's not tying a ligature around their neck and leaving that on. He is manually strangling them utilizing this rope. That's something that he just that's what he wants to do. And the fact that he's keeping that rope is significant. It's significant that he's keeping these photos, and he's keeping the rope with the photos right and in his residence. Yep. You know, so this is all part of you have to ask anytime the offender does something that is not needed to commit the crime, you have to go, well, why is he doing that? Well, that's something significant to the offender, and it's often insight to the offender's fantasy. Glatman is a fantasy motivated offender.

After these photos sexually assaults them and then strangles them. And it's very interesting behaviorally that he utilizes the same length of rope as the murder weapon in all three cases. So he's not tying a ligature around their neck and leaving that on. He is manually strangling them utilizing this rope. That's something that he just that's what he wants to do. And the fact that he's keeping that rope is significant. It's significant that he's keeping these photos, and he's keeping the rope with the photos right and in his residence. Yep. You know, so this is all part of you have to ask anytime the offender does something that is not needed to commit the crime, you have to go, well, why is he doing that? Well, that's something significant to the offender, and it's often insight to the offender's fantasy. Glatman is a fantasy motivated offender.

And I know this won't surprise you, but they looked in a toolbox in his apartment and found personal belongings for all three women. You call those mementos, is that right? Not trophies, mementos souvenirs. Souvenirs.

And I know this won't surprise you, but they looked in a toolbox in his apartment and found personal belongings for all three women. You call those mementos, is that right? Not trophies, mementos souvenirs. Souvenirs.

Okay, generally you could say it's sort of semantics. But you know, within the behavioral analysis terminology, when offenders are taking items in essence to help remember the crimes that they committed, we utilize the term souvenir. And that's just what he has done is and that is a very very common thing that these guys do.

Okay, generally you could say it's sort of semantics. But you know, within the behavioral analysis terminology, when offenders are taking items in essence to help remember the crimes that they committed, we utilize the term souvenir. And that's just what he has done is and that is a very very common thing that these guys do.

These photos which are terrifying to me. The police, when they looked through his apartment found some of them pinned to his wall. I mean, well, let me tell you what he says happened. At this point, I don't see a reason why not to believe him, because he really is very straightforward about this. His intention was sexual assault, he says, for all three women, but he didn't want to be identified. And going through the Lonely Hearts Club, I mean, of course would identify him, and going through an agency photographer agency. It's just so interesting and maybe as you learn a little bit more about him, you'll understand going to the person's house, being able to be identified by the mother and the sister, I mean, what is he thinking. I don't understand why he says, well, I had to kill them, But he's allowed other people like former dates to be able to identify him too.

These photos which are terrifying to me. The police, when they looked through his apartment found some of them pinned to his wall. I mean, well, let me tell you what he says happened. At this point, I don't see a reason why not to believe him, because he really is very straightforward about this. His intention was sexual assault, he says, for all three women, but he didn't want to be identified. And going through the Lonely Hearts Club, I mean, of course would identify him, and going through an agency photographer agency. It's just so interesting and maybe as you learn a little bit more about him, you'll understand going to the person's house, being able to be identified by the mother and the sister, I mean, what is he thinking. I don't understand why he says, well, I had to kill them, But he's allowed other people like former dates to be able to identify him too.

Yeah, you know this is where I mean, he's pre planning his crimes. Obviously, he is not a dumb offender by any stretch of the imagination. But just because he's reasonably intelligent doesn't mean he has a PhD in committing crimes. And I mentioned, you know what stood out to me is at this offender by going and picking up Judy at her house, and by going and picking up Shirley and interacting, you know, to at least he's seen by Shirley's mom. He's elevating his risk. Why is he doing that. He's not lurering these women to an isolated location that a lot of guys will do because they don't want to be seen. He's allowing himself to be seen. This is where he's just not thinking things through at the depth that maybe some other offenders would in order to try to minimize the risk of them being caught. He's obviously able to isolate these women and sexually assault and kill them. He's successful at committing the crime, but he's not being very diligent about covering all his tracks in order to be as successful as a predator as he could have been.

Yeah, you know this is where I mean, he's pre planning his crimes. Obviously, he is not a dumb offender by any stretch of the imagination. But just because he's reasonably intelligent doesn't mean he has a PhD in committing crimes. And I mentioned, you know what stood out to me is at this offender by going and picking up Judy at her house, and by going and picking up Shirley and interacting, you know, to at least he's seen by Shirley's mom. He's elevating his risk. Why is he doing that. He's not lurering these women to an isolated location that a lot of guys will do because they don't want to be seen. He's allowing himself to be seen. This is where he's just not thinking things through at the depth that maybe some other offenders would in order to try to minimize the risk of them being caught. He's obviously able to isolate these women and sexually assault and kill them. He's successful at committing the crime, but he's not being very diligent about covering all his tracks in order to be as successful as a predator as he could have been.

Well, let me tell you these details are something else, and I think it speaks number one to the terror that these women must have felt, and number two to his psychology. So tell me what do you think about this. He picked up Judy, who is the first victim that we know of. He picked up Judy. He brought her back to his apartment rather than to some studio or maybe he said we're gonna do this pin up shoot at my apartment. He's actually assaulted her at gunpoint, and then of course took photos of her bound and gagged. We don't know which came first. Then he drove her into the desert and had her get out of the car. Now, normally I would not go into this much detail what I'm getting ready to tell you, but I just wonder what this says about him. At gunpoint, he told her to kneel down, and he tied the rope around her ankles and then around her neck and then strangled her by pulling the rope tight. Why would he do that? There's something that he wanted to do. Is that like hog tying? It's not.

Well, let me tell you these details are something else, and I think it speaks number one to the terror that these women must have felt, and number two to his psychology. So tell me what do you think about this. He picked up Judy, who is the first victim that we know of. He picked up Judy. He brought her back to his apartment rather than to some studio or maybe he said we're gonna do this pin up shoot at my apartment. He's actually assaulted her at gunpoint, and then of course took photos of her bound and gagged. We don't know which came first. Then he drove her into the desert and had her get out of the car. Now, normally I would not go into this much detail what I'm getting ready to tell you, but I just wonder what this says about him. At gunpoint, he told her to kneel down, and he tied the rope around her ankles and then around her neck and then strangled her by pulling the rope tight. Why would he do that? There's something that he wanted to do. Is that like hog tying? It's not.

If I were to describe it just the way that you said, I would say, yes, it is a form of hogtying if it's just straight from the ankles to the neck, Because I've seen an offender who's done some more elaborate aspects, you know, in essence, where now the victim is face down and ankles are bound, then that same rope goes up around the neck, but it's done in such a way to where the victims strangles themselves because it's so tight. You know, their legs are now pulling against the rope around their neck. Sounds like in this case you still have this ankles to neck connection from behind, but Glatman has to further tighten or utilize a separate rope, which I think is the case as the murder weapon. Now, this may be something he saw. You know, these offenders visually will see things like in the True Detect magazines and want to replicate what they've seen or what they've read about. That could be something that he is just trying to do because it was fantasy material for him from something he's seen or read about. Or it may be because Glatman is not a very physically robust and maybe competent male, it may be a mechanism of safety for him, so he knows that he has absolute control over Judy, that she cannot fight back because she is completely incapacitated. If that's the case, then that would be more of what I would say an mo type of characteristic of Glatman, because he's utilizing it to accomplish the crime and lower the risk to himself his own self preservation.

If I were to describe it just the way that you said, I would say, yes, it is a form of hogtying if it's just straight from the ankles to the neck, Because I've seen an offender who's done some more elaborate aspects, you know, in essence, where now the victim is face down and ankles are bound, then that same rope goes up around the neck, but it's done in such a way to where the victims strangles themselves because it's so tight. You know, their legs are now pulling against the rope around their neck. Sounds like in this case you still have this ankles to neck connection from behind, but Glatman has to further tighten or utilize a separate rope, which I think is the case as the murder weapon. Now, this may be something he saw. You know, these offenders visually will see things like in the True Detect magazines and want to replicate what they've seen or what they've read about. That could be something that he is just trying to do because it was fantasy material for him from something he's seen or read about. Or it may be because Glatman is not a very physically robust and maybe competent male, it may be a mechanism of safety for him, so he knows that he has absolute control over Judy, that she cannot fight back because she is completely incapacitated. If that's the case, then that would be more of what I would say an mo type of characteristic of Glatman, because he's utilizing it to accomplish the crime and lower the risk to himself his own self preservation.

But if he's doing.

But if he's doing.

It because it's something he's seen that turned him on, then that is fantasy that is a signature of.

It because it's something he's seen that turned him on, then that is fantasy that is a signature of.

His Well, then we changed locations a little bit, so we now are going to talk about his second victim, who is Surely, and this is the Lonely Hearts club blind date. He picks her up and instead of going to the stance, he drives her to Huntington Beach. Surely, of course, is arguing with him and says take me home, and he drove her out into the desert instead. They waited in the car until the sun came up.

His Well, then we changed locations a little bit, so we now are going to talk about his second victim, who is Surely, and this is the Lonely Hearts club blind date. He picks her up and instead of going to the stance, he drives her to Huntington Beach. Surely, of course, is arguing with him and says take me home, and he drove her out into the desert instead. They waited in the car until the sun came up.

He needs light to take the photographs.

He needs light to take the photographs.

I get.

I get.

Yeah, she refused to get out of the car and he held her at gunpoint and made her get out of the car. So she gets out of the car and he binds her and sexual assaults her, and then he makes her walk in the desert for hours before he makes her lie on her stomach and he strangles her. I mean, this is is this something he's replicating that he saw or read again?

Yeah, she refused to get out of the car and he held her at gunpoint and made her get out of the car. So she gets out of the car and he binds her and sexual assaults her, and then he makes her walk in the desert for hours before he makes her lie on her stomach and he strangles her. I mean, this is is this something he's replicating that he saw or read again?

You know, it could be you know, I think Glatman is taking you know, he's elevating his risk by driving around with this woman that he's he's abducted, you know, from Sun Valley, Huntington Beach all the way down to San Diego County and then he then it sounds like he makes her walk for hours down in the San Diego County desert before she goes face down and he strangles her from behind. From a behavioral side, you know, some of these offenders want to watch the victim face to face as they strangle. You know, they in essence, they play god. They know they're the ones that are controlling when the victim dies. They want to see the victim's fear. They want to feel the victim struggle against them. Here, if he's strangling her from behind, it almost does sound like he's eliminating her as a witness. The act of killing isn't part of the fantasy. Potentially, in Shirley's case, I can't eliminate the possibility that maybe he has seen or been exposed to something where this is replicating a fantasy story in his head. But he may just be eliminating her as a witness, and he's utilizing the desert and the distance that she ends up having to walk as a way to further hide her body.

You know, it could be you know, I think Glatman is taking you know, he's elevating his risk by driving around with this woman that he's he's abducted, you know, from Sun Valley, Huntington Beach all the way down to San Diego County and then he then it sounds like he makes her walk for hours down in the San Diego County desert before she goes face down and he strangles her from behind. From a behavioral side, you know, some of these offenders want to watch the victim face to face as they strangle. You know, they in essence, they play god. They know they're the ones that are controlling when the victim dies. They want to see the victim's fear. They want to feel the victim struggle against them. Here, if he's strangling her from behind, it almost does sound like he's eliminating her as a witness. The act of killing isn't part of the fantasy. Potentially, in Shirley's case, I can't eliminate the possibility that maybe he has seen or been exposed to something where this is replicating a fantasy story in his head. But he may just be eliminating her as a witness, and he's utilizing the desert and the distance that she ends up having to walk as a way to further hide her body.

Well, the last woman who was Ruth, this is the burlesque show woman. He tells the police that he actually didn't want to kill Ruth, that she was the one that he actually really liked. She's disgusting through a studio, it sounds like, to try to photograph her, and she wanted to cancel because she didn't feel well. He came to her apartment anyway, and he forced his way in. This is the boarding house, that's right, and repeatedly raped her at gunpoint over the course of a night. I don't know where other people are in this boarding house, if it was deserted or people didn't hear. But he made her put on a robe and walked to his car the next day, and then he drove her to the desert, took photos over clothed and unclothed, and then killed her with the same length of rope.

Well, the last woman who was Ruth, this is the burlesque show woman. He tells the police that he actually didn't want to kill Ruth, that she was the one that he actually really liked. She's disgusting through a studio, it sounds like, to try to photograph her, and she wanted to cancel because she didn't feel well. He came to her apartment anyway, and he forced his way in. This is the boarding house, that's right, and repeatedly raped her at gunpoint over the course of a night. I don't know where other people are in this boarding house, if it was deserted or people didn't hear. But he made her put on a robe and walked to his car the next day, and then he drove her to the desert, took photos over clothed and unclothed, and then killed her with the same length of rope.

And he's driving her all the way down to San Diego County desert again.

And he's driving her all the way down to San Diego County desert again.

Yeah, I mean, unless he kills them somewhere else. I haven't read this, and then puts the remains there. But I have not read, you know, anything like that.

Yeah, I mean, unless he kills them somewhere else. I haven't read this, and then puts the remains there. But I have not read, you know, anything like that.

Well, this newspaper photograph of Ruth, it's showing her bound and gagged, and the way that the caption reads is she's on this blanket in the San Diego County desert just before she was strangled. So he drove her alive all the way down to San Diego County. So you see, with Judy, she's found in the Hollywood Hills if I remember right, right, h Yep, she's kind of kept in the Los Angeles area versus Shirley and Ruth. He's driving a distance south of Los Angeles to San Diego County and purposely, I'm sure, choosing the desert. The desert is not a kind place for bodies that are left on the surface.

Well, this newspaper photograph of Ruth, it's showing her bound and gagged, and the way that the caption reads is she's on this blanket in the San Diego County desert just before she was strangled. So he drove her alive all the way down to San Diego County. So you see, with Judy, she's found in the Hollywood Hills if I remember right, right, h Yep, she's kind of kept in the Los Angeles area versus Shirley and Ruth. He's driving a distance south of Los Angeles to San Diego County and purposely, I'm sure, choosing the desert. The desert is not a kind place for bodies that are left on the surface.

Well, after all of this, he is charged with Shirley and Ruth's murders. I don't know why not Judy, but you know they paired them together. And he pleads guilty and he's sentenced to the gas chamber. But we have a potential boulder, what they call the boulder, Jane, do we might have another victim, So tell me what you think about this. Okay, So he has been sentenced, he is not dead yet. They are finding photos of women from Colorado also, he had been in Colorado similarly bound in gagged. They asked Latman if all of these women are still alive, and he says, unless they've been run over, and he says, I didn't kill anybody else. But the wording raises eyebrows because there's a cold case in Boulder that they've been trying to solve. No one really had been making this connection very well. But there was a woman whose body was found in the Boulder Canyon in Boulder, Colorado in nineteen fifty four, so three or four years earlier. They think that she might have been run over, And for more than fifty years since she has been called Jane Doe, the Battered Blonde of Boulder Canyon. And in two thousand and nine they identified her as a woman named Dorothy Gay Howard through DNA, and he was in Denver at the time, and that she had been visiting around this exact same time her aunt who was in Denver, and that they think that there must have been a connection, but that was that the police are never really able to make that connection. It doesn't seem like strong enough, but it could be a coincidence. I don't know, what do you think?

Well, after all of this, he is charged with Shirley and Ruth's murders. I don't know why not Judy, but you know they paired them together. And he pleads guilty and he's sentenced to the gas chamber. But we have a potential boulder, what they call the boulder, Jane, do we might have another victim, So tell me what you think about this. Okay, So he has been sentenced, he is not dead yet. They are finding photos of women from Colorado also, he had been in Colorado similarly bound in gagged. They asked Latman if all of these women are still alive, and he says, unless they've been run over, and he says, I didn't kill anybody else. But the wording raises eyebrows because there's a cold case in Boulder that they've been trying to solve. No one really had been making this connection very well. But there was a woman whose body was found in the Boulder Canyon in Boulder, Colorado in nineteen fifty four, so three or four years earlier. They think that she might have been run over, And for more than fifty years since she has been called Jane Doe, the Battered Blonde of Boulder Canyon. And in two thousand and nine they identified her as a woman named Dorothy Gay Howard through DNA, and he was in Denver at the time, and that she had been visiting around this exact same time her aunt who was in Denver, and that they think that there must have been a connection, but that was that the police are never really able to make that connection. It doesn't seem like strong enough, but it could be a coincidence. I don't know, what do you think?

Well, do you know how Dorothy? What was she left on the road? How does she get run over?

Well, do you know how Dorothy? What was she left on the road? How does she get run over?

Let me give you the circumstances here. So she was only identified because of her twenty four year old grand niece who starts researching this. I told you the identification happened in two thousand and nine, and that's how we know all of these details. So she had been eighteen, and she had been in Denver visiting we think her aunt. That's where Glatman was at the time, and he was known to police at that time. Dorothy was originally from Arizona, and she was married to a guy who her family didn't approve of, and she got divorced pretty quickly. She had been married to another older man, but it seems like she left him and went to Denver in this time. In nineteen fifty four, her body was found in April by a creek and Boulder Canyon by two University of Colorado students. No clothes, no jewelry, badly beaten. There had been animal activity, so her face was unrecognizable, but she did have perfect teeth, which I thought, that's weird, But that meant apparently she couldn't be identified by dental records. They didn't have any dental records that they could figure out.

Let me give you the circumstances here. So she was only identified because of her twenty four year old grand niece who starts researching this. I told you the identification happened in two thousand and nine, and that's how we know all of these details. So she had been eighteen, and she had been in Denver visiting we think her aunt. That's where Glatman was at the time, and he was known to police at that time. Dorothy was originally from Arizona, and she was married to a guy who her family didn't approve of, and she got divorced pretty quickly. She had been married to another older man, but it seems like she left him and went to Denver in this time. In nineteen fifty four, her body was found in April by a creek and Boulder Canyon by two University of Colorado students. No clothes, no jewelry, badly beaten. There had been animal activity, so her face was unrecognizable, but she did have perfect teeth, which I thought, that's weird, But that meant apparently she couldn't be identified by dental records. They didn't have any dental records that they could figure out.

Does that make sense to you From the dental side, you know, oftentimes what you see is you have the dentists who they will you know, when you have a deceased body that in which you have the intact teeth, the anthropologists that are forensical identologists will come in and chart, you know, the various fillings, the various anomalies to you know, the person's dental aspects. And then when they have a possible identification, then they go to the dentists to see the records, the dental records and does that add up with the various sings. At the old on time, the friends of goodontologists was able to chart. Now if you have somebody who has had no cavities and no fillings and no other dental issues like me, the dentist doesn't have anything outside of saying this person has perfect teeth, you know. So in the databases there isn't anything that you know in the comments to say, hey, kean On, this person has a bridge on the lower left part of their jaw. You just don't have that information, right. That observation is interesting. She was badly beaten but found by a creek, but it doesn't say that she was on the road side. So you know, I wonder because I have seen this where sometimes in fact, i've got one victim who is beaten so badly. The pathologist says she's been run over and she wasn't. She was just beaten so badly, you know. And I'm wondering, is that what we're dealing with in this Dorothy case, because it doesn't sound like she's on the road.