Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend, Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now, at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to look back at an eight decade career that took him all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he no longer actively listens to music, and for the first time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs. This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's my phone conversation with the great Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career. You're eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That was your first like professional date, and the first that I can figure was with Bab's Gonzalez on Saint Louis Blues. That does that seem true? I know that I began recording in I've laid forties, so I would imagine that it might be true. I turned verifying exactly. Do you remember Babs Gonzalez pretty well? Oh? Sure, he's like a character, you know, as you Yeah, I remember mans very well. mAbs uh like to my playing a lot, and I used to make some of these gigs that Drabs Gonzalez had Poulain registers in the car and we go down to Shilly, or we go up to Boston or Praises in the an immediate area, and hey, so I got a chance to play with some of my idols. I got a chance to pray reflection of Varrow. I want to bring that up the same year, when you're still eighteen, you got to play on some pretty incredible un Powell records, well, Pouncing with Bud, fifty second Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels. I mean, just real, real classics. And you're playing on there with Fats, with Fats Navarro, the amazing trump of player. It's insane. Yeah, I know it really. I mean, I guess I had too many dogs in my head to we even stop and and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh, but you know, so this is I credit bab and Zealous in doing that, with getting me on a lot of jobs Fats naval I think, I'm sure I can't remember some of me some other the the best players around play with some of these Jews, And I was a young young chat and my having and that opportunity to play with them was tremendous at eighteen playing with people like Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. Were you were you nervous at all? Well, I was too stupid to be nervous that I always fell that if they wanted me there, then I'll just you know that I should be there. I was. I was never really wanted these guys. And was your felt intimidated. Yeah, I just fell well, look if they want me to read, then I'm just you know, I guess I'm stored to be here. So it wasn't Buds. So I went on and did what I did. But it was certainly not on the level of J. J. Johnson and all of these people that I was playing with when I was a teenager, right, I mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you, we still have around these days. He was on those Bud Power sessions as well. Um, the drummer Roy Haynes. Do you ever have the urge to call someone like that these days? And just sort of confirmed that these things actually happened. I called Roy up born his birthdays and I always called him up and we talk about the things that we can both remember. So Roy I know, and I know Roy. We know. We were went to young kids running to play music. And Roy moved up in our neighborhood upon Stigar Hill, the Corvette. We all knew him. And then Roy was playing with Lester Young. You must have loved Lester. I mean, I can imagine Lester must have been an inspiration for you. Lester Young was God, you know, and it was so good to get to know lest of Young and to know that Lester Young like to me because we used to be up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up on Broadway, and guys would be less, say, look like they were if for some guys coming musicians. He would call that and say him, I no, say I'm not at home. So you know, a lot of people came to see him, but hitting the ride everybody. And he liked me. He liked me and Matt Roach used to come by there, and uh, I got a Gritter friendship with the Great Press and that gave me a lot of validation that I was doing something right. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy has a birthday coming up in a few days here, so I guess you'll be probably calling him. Huh oh, yeah, I didn't know it's coming up. Yeah, I'll find out about it and I will definitely call him definitely. Yeah, yeah, man, Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're ninety one. Now, how long ago does an experience like that feeling this point, like, does it even feel like it was in the same lifetime? Well, yes and no, and uh you know it was no in a life That's a tough, tough question, because lifetime means, you know, the last week could be a different lifetime in a way of speaking. Yeah, sure, in a way it's a different way time, yes, but still it was a lifetime which I was involved in, so it's not that different. But yes, it was different in so many ways, different reversions around, different ven years around. You know, it's a lifetime is a difficult word since I believe in reincarnation. I accept re incarnation. So maybe when you say it was a different lifetime, it ends up too many contradictory things to be able to answer that precisely. No, I see what you mean. I see what you mean. I was watching an interview did the other night in nineteen sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used to have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during the filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two, and you were referring to yourself as old In that taping, you refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now, I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two. Now, you know, I've made so many mistakes in life. I've done some good things in life. You know, I was learning, which I was a learning experience. I think there was born a fairly positive person. Used to call me the gesture or now you're a little boy so in play. So I think I had a positive personality all through my life. You know, that's what we think, and that's good. But things happened to us. We get tested in life, and it's a long trip, you know. And I've known so many people that didn't make it all the way and ended up in terrible situations. I was talking about my friend, he's a great drummer from Chicago named eight Day that's play with that Day. When I was in Chicago in nineteen forty nine, he was strung out on drugs and I was short of strung out on drugs entertain So that was a different, different world. But it was one of those rivers I had to cross, so that it's hard to look back. You know. I made a lot of mistakes in life. I did some things in life which I like my music. I was already trying to get better. But as I said, I was a guy that wasn't afraid of trying to do something and playing with superior musicians and all of that. No, you definitely tray right. You know, I felt that I should be there. They wanted me to be there. Yeah, we have to learn. We have to try to be at the golden rule when all that stuff got to try to do it. We don't get it now, we have to try to again. Like that said in the TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later, I'm gonna quote. I'm gonna start quoting that. Yeah, man, you gotta get it right. You can't do anything and get away with it. You gotta get it right. You don't get it right now, you're gonna get happy day it right later because you're reap to So. See, some of these things are very important to remember that what life has survived life is to find out the reason for life? What does it mean? And that goes on a non man who knows how many lives we have to live because a brilliant children who knows. I don't know, but I know that you can't get it generally in one lifetime. Some people are really advanced that I've read in life. I say, wow, their journey. They know a lot more than I do than some people. I'm ahead of some other people in their journeys. I say, wow, I've learned some things this guy hasn't learned. Why this girl hasn't learned all of these things? Read something. We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll be back with more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with more from Sonny Rollins. You know, I'm thinking about what you've sewed musically, and that certainly is more and more than I think many people you know would ever contribute to one lifetime. And I was thinking about the year particular, nineteen fifty six for you. That year you played a date with Miles Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you remember that date? Oh? Yeah, Collectors all Items, Collectors Items exactly. You played Serpent's Tooth. Did you interact with Bird much on that session? Well, Bird was another one of my rods, so of course there was a lot of other things happening on that particular session. And well, i'd guess a miners year old say it. At that time, I was still on drugs. I hadn't seen Charlie Parker in a law so he said all he said, So, Sonny said, I told him, I think it's a Yeah, how are you doing I think he meant that I bet my life together and I tell him, oh yeah, yeah, man him, I'm doing good, you know, Or so I lied to him. I wasn't doing good. And some guys in the band later on during the session they read it on me. They said, oh, Man, Sunday's Sunday was out getting high with this last night. So anywhere later on the session, after he found out that I had lied to him, I had noticed something in him had destroyed. He was had despondent. He was to know that that I had and not missed me. Then I realized man Bird was so involved that all of the young musicians trying to follow his music in his lifestyle. Yeah, I was killing him. Yeah. Knowing that all these young guys were using drugs, it wor was clilling you? It worse Cloninger and I saw that at this session. So you know what I said, Okay, that said, I said this to myself, I'm going to get off for drugs, and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be so down because some people are following his positive effect on their life, not the negative effect. And that's when I made my decision to get off of drugs. Wow, I didn't know that. I had no idea. Yeah, well that's part of this life that I'm living here, so actualy, you know what I got off for drugs. I didn't know where they need to know all of that, but it wasn't losing. It's very fascinating. Did you ever get a chance to tell Charlie Okay? What happened was this? There was a drug rehabilitation place in Lexington, Kentucky. It was the first place where everyone was like the Betty Ford Clinic before the Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot of people were there, people that were into drugs and movie stars were there. We were treated like patients, not as criminals anyway. So I was there for the cure. The cure was I've been four months I left Lexington and five five fifty five that's when I was discharge or whatever we were to call it. But the unfortunate maybe so maybe not. Part of it was that Charlie Parker passed away one month before I got out of lexc Pinkentucky. So I never got the chance to which I was waiting to do. Growing up your birth Madam straight Charlie or straight man, I would convince him more, he would know that I was scientious, because I was so ashamed of lying to him earlier on this recognate he just recalled. So I was so anxious for this to happen. I would be able to see him and convince him that I was, that I wasn't going to disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately that worth denied me. However, I do believe in things like the afterlife and all that stuff. I think Charlie Parker knew wherever he was at that Oh Sonny got my message. Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, really, when you think about it too, it's pretty great timing that you got cleaning fifty five, because I mean, in fifty six, your career is really insane. Your sort, your output I'm thinking about you know, you do Saxophone, Colossus tenor Madness, you do Brilliant Corners with the Loneus um you do a lot of your work with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just really incredible stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you that Brilliant Corners album with the Loneus Monk. That record really blows my mind when I listened to it. It's like spectacularly complex, especially that title track. Do you remember was that a tough session? A couple of session, the great tough session. It was a little different than the meter that Monk could play before, as I remember, the tough music, tough music. But everybody liked that record a lot. You know, always mentioned d when they're talking about months accomplishments. Yeah, did you enjoy playing on it? I think so. I think so. It was a hard record to make, you know, it was hard. Everybody didn't get it the first first door around. But yeah, sure I was playing with Mark. Playing with Mark was it was a celestial experience, whatever came out of it. Yeah, And I had that experience, and everybody liked bed record a great deal. I know Ernie Henry another tenant player. He ended up leaving I think one of the sessions, and then Clark Terry came into sort of play. Did you ever feel like leaving? Oh no, no, no, maybe if they kicked me out, but I'm not leaving on my own, no, noo. They'd have to show me the door. There was a lot of great people on that record. There was Oscar Pediford was there, Max Rhoades, I believe, and played the chilt I forget everywater that was on the regular verse. It was great. It was a little different than some of the music had done before, so it was quite a quite a landmark. Yeah, seen something about playing in the Max Roach Clifford Brown quintet with with yourself and George Morrow and Richie Powell. It sounds to me like you guys had incredible chemistry. Did it feel that way to you at the time? Of course I had played with Matt some couple times and in New York, but when that was the band was Clifford and he it was different. Was right now I was doing more. I think I played as a sideman or something like some retoric Max Roach in New York. But when I played with the band, that band, it was really I don't know. I'm glad it sounded like that because I had a great experience playing with Clifford Brown. And Clifford was such a straight a straight up guy, was such a straight up player. When the mess players as we know. When I look back today and I talked to different guys, all these young guys, Clifford Brown was her favorite trumpet player, so he was quite a guy. But he was also a great person. And I learned a lot from Clifford because Clifford was playing all of this music, but he was not a guy that was missing maryer drugs. He wasn't at Cno. So I said to myself, while, man, listen to all this music he can play and he's not had nothing to do with his personal life. So so you don't have to be using drugs or drinking a lot or and even gotten bad to play as much music as he did. And that was a real expirational to me. And I really learned that a Wow, man, if custics could do it, Man, all his music he's playing, I can do it. I don't need drugs to play. Yeah. So he was a grand and we were good friends. I mean, you know, I was really close after he passed away. When when we were playing in the band and sometimes uh, I'd channeled Clifford. I said, Rumford, man, Uh, what what would what should we do right here? I mean I talked to him like that about the music. Wow, and then he'd answer me. And that were known for a while before that band broke up. Max got I did trump he plays, of course, but that happened for a while and then after a while, I had stopped channeling Clifford and let him go on on his journey his life Juney, but I channeled him for a long time after he passed, and then now you know, and we had to play the same music, a lot of the same music. We'll be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after a quick break. We're back with the rest of my conversation with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were when you when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed away in the car accident. Well, the brand was in uh, Brownie and Richie were in Padelphia where they lived. Richie lived in Willow Grove, sort of suburb Brownie was in. So we had been on the road to Bendmon Road. So we had a low time off before we went. I think we were going out to California, but on the way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway, the days we had off, Max and myself Canton, New York, and George Morrow came to New York. You know. The next job was Chicarlo, and we left Chicago traveling right car and Brownie and Archie Powell left Philadelphia. Chevron on the Pennsylvania turnbike by car Marx say Now and George Margotten. We got to Chicago and we you know, waiting around there. I remember Miles was playing at the club right down the street, when sixty thirty street. So while we were waiting for a cliff to arrive in Chicago, we had the bad news. It was a soccer I mean we were quieting like babies, and it was you know, as a branch because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah, I mean Richie too, but Brownie was you know, Brownie was Resilion later and I had gotten more accolade and the Richie, you know, Richie was served. But she was making his name at the time. Really, huh, he was making his name and the game, yeah, incredible playing Brownie had made his name. Really. Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath of that, or ever get a chance to talk with Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know how he took that? I don't know how he took dead? No O, God's curious. No, I don't know. Did you feel like that band had more yet to do? I had been so we I think you didn't know Clifford and I used to practice together all the time, and besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer, you know, as the musicians playing it a saxophone and trumpet, So we were trying to get closer, trying to get tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything, and I was nowhere in the bands. I was trying to learn the book and all this stuff. But besides that, there was this resides the repertoire I was playing with Clifford that he and I had tried to always get closer. So yeah, I think I had a lot to do. Yeah, do you think they had anything to do with you sort of stripping things back and go into like that trio format the next year, just just you on sax and then bass and drums that related musically all. I don't remember when I did the first trio albums that time. Yeah, maybe six months later, eight months later it would have been just yeah, Um, I don't know. If no, I don't believe so, because I had always I had always uh enjoyed the small instrumentation. You know. In fact, when I first mad Miles Davis, I was playing trio and we were playing opposite Miles, you know, Miles Receivers Stars and we were the local band, and I think I was playing trio at that time. So no, I think I think the trios I did didn't stem from the Comfort Brown period. Were you surprised? I will carryous people found that idea of you just playing in that small trio you based drums like you did on on Way Out West or not at the vanguard. I hope that it would be received well, well, I think it was. I think it absolutely was. I mean, it's it's it's it's uh, those seem to have really stood the test of time in an incredible way. But it's it's funny also just in a way, how curious people find that you know that that it's like, oh, whoa, you're you know, this is this pianoist trio. You know, it seemed to sort of well, I always liked that, and not pay was a great piano player. There's no reflection on Planner, but I liked the idea of just a rhythm section and uh allowed me to sort of be free in a completely free just compose things in my own in my own mind and create the harmonies and the musical situations and just came to me. I had a rhythm behind me, had the base, and had the drums to keep things moving. Yeah, and I had to feed them to conceive of all of these things. So that's why I like find like that had nothing to do with anything else I got you. There's some wild playing on those records from you, and even some incredible you know, even from the other cats, you know, like Night at the Vanguard. H there's a couple of baseils on that record that are great as well. You know. Yeah, I tried to get his guys weren't afraid to put it without your piano. Yeah, so a lot of guys you know, would be retacent to do that rose there, you know, because a piano fis right in with the with a with a base, you know, like a hammer and egg. Yeah, yeah, yeah there, I mean, yes, so wow, the piano and jumps here, base here stayen years old. You know, those guys can wake up in the middle of the unit and throw him and dates be right and tune for the next note. So it was something which you know, you're were somewhat of a challenge to them. Yeah, it was wilbur aware by the way, wild beware wilboware We used to have a joker about Robo. We used to call him wilbur being aware. That's great. Alvin Jones also on drums on that, just Sovie Alvin Jones yea incredible, incredible trio man Man Man. I had some other guys on that. On other parts of the record, I added Peter Looker and another guys from Donald Bailey Baltimore. Donald Who is Donald Bailey's I can't figure out who this Donald Bailey bass player? I know there's a drummer Donald Bailey, right, But there's a drummer Donald Bailey. But is there also? But I can't find anything out about a bass player. Donald Bailey was I know, I know he was very under Uh that's it full for musician. Nobody know much about him. How did you know him? My good friend went to school then there at uh, I've watched college. I forget what it was it because you have to forgive me. You know, there's when again at a certain age, you're your your your memory, you know your short term memory goals. You know it's like ten minutes from now, but I need it now. But anyway, No, he's here. He was very but he was known in the area, you know, and he's a good player. You know, he played good. I liked him on those things. I always thought maybe was someone that like just couldn't say, like you couldn't say who it was for some contractual reason or something, because I was like, who, Yeah, I can't but know who this guy is. No, don't really and uh unfortunately he passed not too long after those records came out. But they did a great their great job over accompanying me on that. Yeah. Absolutely did the record Sunny Side Up that you did with Dizzy Gillespie and Sonny Stitt fifty nine. Oh yeah, how did that come together? Well, that came together to Norman Grange. Of course, did you know who Norman Granges? He did jazz at the Philharmonic, right, You put on all those shows a year promoting jazz. Yeah, he did a lot of promotion of different people. And his crowned seatment was jadged the Pharmonic. But he was a big time or jazz promotor. He ain't replaying someplace. See. He got to be a big fan of mine and then he was his date. I mean he arranged your date that so it turned out to be sunny and Sunny and Dizzy. Yeah. Were you friendly with Dizzey at that time or did you know him decently well or at all? Yeah, I was funded with Desy. You know, if you know Dozey at all, you've got to be friendly with him. That type for guy, he's going to mean, he's always going to be something light and amusing that uh becomes part of the conversation. And you know, Dozy was a wonderful guy. Dizzey was a guy that always was teaching people's stuff. You know, he don't real young users should be run and he's coming and you know that they showed to get it on the piano and show the piano playing some chords and sense chords, you know, stuff like that. He was a great natural teacher. I mean, not that, I mean he wasn't trying to diminish again not I didn't ring like that. I mean we were happy to have Dizzy Gilaspie there. That that was said. He won't he wanted to h to to teach, you know, not to despatch the other guy at all, not in that sense in the least. Yeah, if everybody was listening to what he was doing, saying and playing that record Sunny Side Up was kind of an anomaly. I feel like, uh, in your catalog at least, you know, at the time, it felt maybe much more like a dizzy record than any anything else, which I think is probably only natural. I think it's a dizzy record. Zard. Yeah, I mean it's kind of like the three of you guys. I mean, you know it's it's named Sunny seven. It was Busy Gillespie, it was his session. I mean yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's fair, that's fair. That's such a cool record. Yeah, some people liked to lot. Some people, uh musicians, Uh really thought that that was one of my best records. Yeah, well you know what, you recorded that fifty seven, but it comes out fifty nine. The next year, nineteen sixty, Lee Morgan quoted you on a Jazz Messengers record he did your little band down. Uh just they're just this little phrase that you do. Oh really and yeah, and in League quoted you on this song called the Opener on a Jazz Messengers record just the next year. It's good. Yeah, I know. Layers a great player. Yeah, leaders should come whenever he was playing with Match and Comfortence some Aladelphia at a club there Lee would come by, you know, to have Cliffin. It means that's another guy, I mean, the young guy. They all love Cliffic so much. So anyway, that's when they meant to me. And uh, he used to play outside the cover with his uh mouthpiece alone. He would show me what he could do just playing his mouthpiece. In those who I'd say, they say, hey, man, that's good there Lee Morgan. I mean, but he's great. Man, he's a great player. You never got to play with him, did you. I don't think so. I don't think so. No. I think that's one one of the trumble players that I missed. Would have been great to hear you guys together. Man. Yeah, I wonder Roddson must have been a Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure I would have been uh inspired. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm curious as anyone you admire outside of jazz in terms of musically, Oh yeah, I admire all of the great musicians from their centuries. I like Jay as Mac, I like uh Brahms, Oh, David Cravell, I like Fat Swaer, Louis, Joard new kors Man, Luis I'm my favorite year and Alls. I like everybody. Yeah, I appreciate all Kashian music. Do you listen to music at all? Still? These days? It's yours? Three? What do you? What do you listen to? What do you enjoy listening to? Now? I never listen to too much music. It's usage. I have listened to so much music in my life. I still think music all the time. I'm still playing my horn, even though I can't play my horn anymore. I'm skill of my imagining passages that I would be fingering on my instrument, although I can't do that anymore. So I'm listening to music. I love music, and occasionally I get to hear music, aren't some of the radio stations I have on. I hear some music and I love it. But I don't go out to listen to music anymore. I don't mean go out in the street. I mean I don't seek out music anymore. It is it frustrating to hear it in a sense, since you can't you just pick up your horn and play some figures or anything. To a certain extent, I wouldn't look very completely his frustration, but that's part of it, because I hear something and I fear what I would be doing. What I can do so in a sense I was safe. This not a frustration because I love music and listening to somebody that I admire. It is great. It's a great feeling. So frustration might come a littlement because I can't contribute, being that it was part of the insig Sonny. It is um. There is a pleasure and an honor speaking with you. I hope we get to do it again. Okay, man, take it easy in God bless you as well, sir. All right man, all right, bye, Sonny. Thanks for Sonny Rollins for taking us back to some of the earliest, most important moments in American recorded music history. Do you hear your favorite Sonny Rollins songs? Check out the playlist at broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcasts, where you can find all of our new episodes. Can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced a help from Lea Rose, Jason gambrel Ent, Holiday, Rick Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chaffey. Our executive producer is Mia Lobell. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and others from pushkin consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you like the show, please remember to share, wait and review us on your podcast app. Our themes expect Anny Beats, I'm justin Richmond,

Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend, Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now, at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to look back at an eight decade career that took him all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he no longer actively listens to music, and for the first time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs. This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's my phone conversation with the great Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career. You're eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That was your first like professional date, and the first that I can figure was with Bab's Gonzalez on Saint Louis Blues. That does that seem true? I know that I began recording in I've laid forties, so I would imagine that it might be true. I turned verifying exactly. Do you remember Babs Gonzalez pretty well? Oh? Sure, he's like a character, you know, as you Yeah, I remember mans very well. mAbs uh like to my playing a lot, and I used to make some of these gigs that Drabs Gonzalez had Poulain registers in the car and we go down to Shilly, or we go up to Boston or Praises in the an immediate area, and hey, so I got a chance to play with some of my idols. I got a chance to pray reflection of Varrow. I want to bring that up the same year, when you're still eighteen, you got to play on some pretty incredible un Powell records, well, Pouncing with Bud, fifty second Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels. I mean, just real, real classics. And you're playing on there with Fats, with Fats Navarro, the amazing trump of player. It's insane. Yeah, I know it really. I mean, I guess I had too many dogs in my head to we even stop and and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh, but you know, so this is I credit bab and Zealous in doing that, with getting me on a lot of jobs Fats naval I think, I'm sure I can't remember some of me some other the the best players around play with some of these Jews, And I was a young young chat and my having and that opportunity to play with them was tremendous at eighteen playing with people like Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. Were you were you nervous at all? Well, I was too stupid to be nervous that I always fell that if they wanted me there, then I'll just you know that I should be there. I was. I was never really wanted these guys. And was your felt intimidated. Yeah, I just fell well, look if they want me to read, then I'm just you know, I guess I'm stored to be here. So it wasn't Buds. So I went on and did what I did. But it was certainly not on the level of J. J. Johnson and all of these people that I was playing with when I was a teenager, right, I mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you, we still have around these days. He was on those Bud Power sessions as well. Um, the drummer Roy Haynes. Do you ever have the urge to call someone like that these days? And just sort of confirmed that these things actually happened. I called Roy up born his birthdays and I always called him up and we talk about the things that we can both remember. So Roy I know, and I know Roy. We know. We were went to young kids running to play music. And Roy moved up in our neighborhood upon Stigar Hill, the Corvette. We all knew him. And then Roy was playing with Lester Young. You must have loved Lester. I mean, I can imagine Lester must have been an inspiration for you. Lester Young was God, you know, and it was so good to get to know lest of Young and to know that Lester Young like to me because we used to be up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up on Broadway, and guys would be less, say, look like they were if for some guys coming musicians. He would call that and say him, I no, say I'm not at home. So you know, a lot of people came to see him, but hitting the ride everybody. And he liked me. He liked me and Matt Roach used to come by there, and uh, I got a Gritter friendship with the Great Press and that gave me a lot of validation that I was doing something right. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy has a birthday coming up in a few days here, so I guess you'll be probably calling him. Huh oh, yeah, I didn't know it's coming up. Yeah, I'll find out about it and I will definitely call him definitely. Yeah, yeah, man, Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're ninety one. Now, how long ago does an experience like that feeling this point, like, does it even feel like it was in the same lifetime? Well, yes and no, and uh you know it was no in a life That's a tough, tough question, because lifetime means, you know, the last week could be a different lifetime in a way of speaking. Yeah, sure, in a way it's a different way time, yes, but still it was a lifetime which I was involved in, so it's not that different. But yes, it was different in so many ways, different reversions around, different ven years around. You know, it's a lifetime is a difficult word since I believe in reincarnation. I accept re incarnation. So maybe when you say it was a different lifetime, it ends up too many contradictory things to be able to answer that precisely. No, I see what you mean. I see what you mean. I was watching an interview did the other night in nineteen sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used to have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during the filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two, and you were referring to yourself as old In that taping, you refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now, I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two. Now, you know, I've made so many mistakes in life. I've done some good things in life. You know, I was learning, which I was a learning experience. I think there was born a fairly positive person. Used to call me the gesture or now you're a little boy so in play. So I think I had a positive personality all through my life. You know, that's what we think, and that's good. But things happened to us. We get tested in life, and it's a long trip, you know. And I've known so many people that didn't make it all the way and ended up in terrible situations. I was talking about my friend, he's a great drummer from Chicago named eight Day that's play with that Day. When I was in Chicago in nineteen forty nine, he was strung out on drugs and I was short of strung out on drugs entertain So that was a different, different world. But it was one of those rivers I had to cross, so that it's hard to look back. You know. I made a lot of mistakes in life. I did some things in life which I like my music. I was already trying to get better. But as I said, I was a guy that wasn't afraid of trying to do something and playing with superior musicians and all of that. No, you definitely tray right. You know, I felt that I should be there. They wanted me to be there. Yeah, we have to learn. We have to try to be at the golden rule when all that stuff got to try to do it. We don't get it now, we have to try to again. Like that said in the TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later, I'm gonna quote. I'm gonna start quoting that. Yeah, man, you gotta get it right. You can't do anything and get away with it. You gotta get it right. You don't get it right now, you're gonna get happy day it right later because you're reap to So. See, some of these things are very important to remember that what life has survived life is to find out the reason for life? What does it mean? And that goes on a non man who knows how many lives we have to live because a brilliant children who knows. I don't know, but I know that you can't get it generally in one lifetime. Some people are really advanced that I've read in life. I say, wow, their journey. They know a lot more than I do than some people. I'm ahead of some other people in their journeys. I say, wow, I've learned some things this guy hasn't learned. Why this girl hasn't learned all of these things? Read something. We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll be back with more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with more from Sonny Rollins. You know, I'm thinking about what you've sewed musically, and that certainly is more and more than I think many people you know would ever contribute to one lifetime. And I was thinking about the year particular, nineteen fifty six for you. That year you played a date with Miles Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you remember that date? Oh? Yeah, Collectors all Items, Collectors Items exactly. You played Serpent's Tooth. Did you interact with Bird much on that session? Well, Bird was another one of my rods, so of course there was a lot of other things happening on that particular session. And well, i'd guess a miners year old say it. At that time, I was still on drugs. I hadn't seen Charlie Parker in a law so he said all he said, So, Sonny said, I told him, I think it's a Yeah, how are you doing I think he meant that I bet my life together and I tell him, oh yeah, yeah, man him, I'm doing good, you know, Or so I lied to him. I wasn't doing good. And some guys in the band later on during the session they read it on me. They said, oh, Man, Sunday's Sunday was out getting high with this last night. So anywhere later on the session, after he found out that I had lied to him, I had noticed something in him had destroyed. He was had despondent. He was to know that that I had and not missed me. Then I realized man Bird was so involved that all of the young musicians trying to follow his music in his lifestyle. Yeah, I was killing him. Yeah. Knowing that all these young guys were using drugs, it wor was clilling you? It worse Cloninger and I saw that at this session. So you know what I said, Okay, that said, I said this to myself, I'm going to get off for drugs, and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be so down because some people are following his positive effect on their life, not the negative effect. And that's when I made my decision to get off of drugs. Wow, I didn't know that. I had no idea. Yeah, well that's part of this life that I'm living here, so actualy, you know what I got off for drugs. I didn't know where they need to know all of that, but it wasn't losing. It's very fascinating. Did you ever get a chance to tell Charlie Okay? What happened was this? There was a drug rehabilitation place in Lexington, Kentucky. It was the first place where everyone was like the Betty Ford Clinic before the Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot of people were there, people that were into drugs and movie stars were there. We were treated like patients, not as criminals anyway. So I was there for the cure. The cure was I've been four months I left Lexington and five five fifty five that's when I was discharge or whatever we were to call it. But the unfortunate maybe so maybe not. Part of it was that Charlie Parker passed away one month before I got out of lexc Pinkentucky. So I never got the chance to which I was waiting to do. Growing up your birth Madam straight Charlie or straight man, I would convince him more, he would know that I was scientious, because I was so ashamed of lying to him earlier on this recognate he just recalled. So I was so anxious for this to happen. I would be able to see him and convince him that I was, that I wasn't going to disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately that worth denied me. However, I do believe in things like the afterlife and all that stuff. I think Charlie Parker knew wherever he was at that Oh Sonny got my message. Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, really, when you think about it too, it's pretty great timing that you got cleaning fifty five, because I mean, in fifty six, your career is really insane. Your sort, your output I'm thinking about you know, you do Saxophone, Colossus tenor Madness, you do Brilliant Corners with the Loneus um you do a lot of your work with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just really incredible stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you that Brilliant Corners album with the Loneus Monk. That record really blows my mind when I listened to it. It's like spectacularly complex, especially that title track. Do you remember was that a tough session? A couple of session, the great tough session. It was a little different than the meter that Monk could play before, as I remember, the tough music, tough music. But everybody liked that record a lot. You know, always mentioned d when they're talking about months accomplishments. Yeah, did you enjoy playing on it? I think so. I think so. It was a hard record to make, you know, it was hard. Everybody didn't get it the first first door around. But yeah, sure I was playing with Mark. Playing with Mark was it was a celestial experience, whatever came out of it. Yeah, And I had that experience, and everybody liked bed record a great deal. I know Ernie Henry another tenant player. He ended up leaving I think one of the sessions, and then Clark Terry came into sort of play. Did you ever feel like leaving? Oh no, no, no, maybe if they kicked me out, but I'm not leaving on my own, no, noo. They'd have to show me the door. There was a lot of great people on that record. There was Oscar Pediford was there, Max Rhoades, I believe, and played the chilt I forget everywater that was on the regular verse. It was great. It was a little different than some of the music had done before, so it was quite a quite a landmark. Yeah, seen something about playing in the Max Roach Clifford Brown quintet with with yourself and George Morrow and Richie Powell. It sounds to me like you guys had incredible chemistry. Did it feel that way to you at the time? Of course I had played with Matt some couple times and in New York, but when that was the band was Clifford and he it was different. Was right now I was doing more. I think I played as a sideman or something like some retoric Max Roach in New York. But when I played with the band, that band, it was really I don't know. I'm glad it sounded like that because I had a great experience playing with Clifford Brown. And Clifford was such a straight a straight up guy, was such a straight up player. When the mess players as we know. When I look back today and I talked to different guys, all these young guys, Clifford Brown was her favorite trumpet player, so he was quite a guy. But he was also a great person. And I learned a lot from Clifford because Clifford was playing all of this music, but he was not a guy that was missing maryer drugs. He wasn't at Cno. So I said to myself, while, man, listen to all this music he can play and he's not had nothing to do with his personal life. So so you don't have to be using drugs or drinking a lot or and even gotten bad to play as much music as he did. And that was a real expirational to me. And I really learned that a Wow, man, if custics could do it, Man, all his music he's playing, I can do it. I don't need drugs to play. Yeah. So he was a grand and we were good friends. I mean, you know, I was really close after he passed away. When when we were playing in the band and sometimes uh, I'd channeled Clifford. I said, Rumford, man, Uh, what what would what should we do right here? I mean I talked to him like that about the music. Wow, and then he'd answer me. And that were known for a while before that band broke up. Max got I did trump he plays, of course, but that happened for a while and then after a while, I had stopped channeling Clifford and let him go on on his journey his life Juney, but I channeled him for a long time after he passed, and then now you know, and we had to play the same music, a lot of the same music. We'll be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after a quick break. We're back with the rest of my conversation with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were when you when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed away in the car accident. Well, the brand was in uh, Brownie and Richie were in Padelphia where they lived. Richie lived in Willow Grove, sort of suburb Brownie was in. So we had been on the road to Bendmon Road. So we had a low time off before we went. I think we were going out to California, but on the way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway, the days we had off, Max and myself Canton, New York, and George Morrow came to New York. You know. The next job was Chicarlo, and we left Chicago traveling right car and Brownie and Archie Powell left Philadelphia. Chevron on the Pennsylvania turnbike by car Marx say Now and George Margotten. We got to Chicago and we you know, waiting around there. I remember Miles was playing at the club right down the street, when sixty thirty street. So while we were waiting for a cliff to arrive in Chicago, we had the bad news. It was a soccer I mean we were quieting like babies, and it was you know, as a branch because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah, I mean Richie too, but Brownie was you know, Brownie was Resilion later and I had gotten more accolade and the Richie, you know, Richie was served. But she was making his name at the time. Really, huh, he was making his name and the game, yeah, incredible playing Brownie had made his name. Really. Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath of that, or ever get a chance to talk with Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know how he took that? I don't know how he took dead? No O, God's curious. No, I don't know. Did you feel like that band had more yet to do? I had been so we I think you didn't know Clifford and I used to practice together all the time, and besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer, you know, as the musicians playing it a saxophone and trumpet, So we were trying to get closer, trying to get tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything, and I was nowhere in the bands. I was trying to learn the book and all this stuff. But besides that, there was this resides the repertoire I was playing with Clifford that he and I had tried to always get closer. So yeah, I think I had a lot to do. Yeah, do you think they had anything to do with you sort of stripping things back and go into like that trio format the next year, just just you on sax and then bass and drums that related musically all. I don't remember when I did the first trio albums that time. Yeah, maybe six months later, eight months later it would have been just yeah, Um, I don't know. If no, I don't believe so, because I had always I had always uh enjoyed the small instrumentation. You know. In fact, when I first mad Miles Davis, I was playing trio and we were playing opposite Miles, you know, Miles Receivers Stars and we were the local band, and I think I was playing trio at that time. So no, I think I think the trios I did didn't stem from the Comfort Brown period. Were you surprised? I will carryous people found that idea of you just playing in that small trio you based drums like you did on on Way Out West or not at the vanguard. I hope that it would be received well, well, I think it was. I think it absolutely was. I mean, it's it's it's it's uh, those seem to have really stood the test of time in an incredible way. But it's it's funny also just in a way, how curious people find that you know that that it's like, oh, whoa, you're you know, this is this pianoist trio. You know, it seemed to sort of well, I always liked that, and not pay was a great piano player. There's no reflection on Planner, but I liked the idea of just a rhythm section and uh allowed me to sort of be free in a completely free just compose things in my own in my own mind and create the harmonies and the musical situations and just came to me. I had a rhythm behind me, had the base, and had the drums to keep things moving. Yeah, and I had to feed them to conceive of all of these things. So that's why I like find like that had nothing to do with anything else I got you. There's some wild playing on those records from you, and even some incredible you know, even from the other cats, you know, like Night at the Vanguard. H there's a couple of baseils on that record that are great as well. You know. Yeah, I tried to get his guys weren't afraid to put it without your piano. Yeah, so a lot of guys you know, would be retacent to do that rose there, you know, because a piano fis right in with the with a with a base, you know, like a hammer and egg. Yeah, yeah, yeah there, I mean, yes, so wow, the piano and jumps here, base here stayen years old. You know, those guys can wake up in the middle of the unit and throw him and dates be right and tune for the next note. So it was something which you know, you're were somewhat of a challenge to them. Yeah, it was wilbur aware by the way, wild beware wilboware We used to have a joker about Robo. We used to call him wilbur being aware. That's great. Alvin Jones also on drums on that, just Sovie Alvin Jones yea incredible, incredible trio man Man Man. I had some other guys on that. On other parts of the record, I added Peter Looker and another guys from Donald Bailey Baltimore. Donald Who is Donald Bailey's I can't figure out who this Donald Bailey bass player? I know there's a drummer Donald Bailey, right, But there's a drummer Donald Bailey. But is there also? But I can't find anything out about a bass player. Donald Bailey was I know, I know he was very under Uh that's it full for musician. Nobody know much about him. How did you know him? My good friend went to school then there at uh, I've watched college. I forget what it was it because you have to forgive me. You know, there's when again at a certain age, you're your your your memory, you know your short term memory goals. You know it's like ten minutes from now, but I need it now. But anyway, No, he's here. He was very but he was known in the area, you know, and he's a good player. You know, he played good. I liked him on those things. I always thought maybe was someone that like just couldn't say, like you couldn't say who it was for some contractual reason or something, because I was like, who, Yeah, I can't but know who this guy is. No, don't really and uh unfortunately he passed not too long after those records came out. But they did a great their great job over accompanying me on that. Yeah. Absolutely did the record Sunny Side Up that you did with Dizzy Gillespie and Sonny Stitt fifty nine. Oh yeah, how did that come together? Well, that came together to Norman Grange. Of course, did you know who Norman Granges? He did jazz at the Philharmonic, right, You put on all those shows a year promoting jazz. Yeah, he did a lot of promotion of different people. And his crowned seatment was jadged the Pharmonic. But he was a big time or jazz promotor. He ain't replaying someplace. See. He got to be a big fan of mine and then he was his date. I mean he arranged your date that so it turned out to be sunny and Sunny and Dizzy. Yeah. Were you friendly with Dizzey at that time or did you know him decently well or at all? Yeah, I was funded with Desy. You know, if you know Dozey at all, you've got to be friendly with him. That type for guy, he's going to mean, he's always going to be something light and amusing that uh becomes part of the conversation. And you know, Dozy was a wonderful guy. Dizzey was a guy that always was teaching people's stuff. You know, he don't real young users should be run and he's coming and you know that they showed to get it on the piano and show the piano playing some chords and sense chords, you know, stuff like that. He was a great natural teacher. I mean, not that, I mean he wasn't trying to diminish again not I didn't ring like that. I mean we were happy to have Dizzy Gilaspie there. That that was said. He won't he wanted to h to to teach, you know, not to despatch the other guy at all, not in that sense in the least. Yeah, if everybody was listening to what he was doing, saying and playing that record Sunny Side Up was kind of an anomaly. I feel like, uh, in your catalog at least, you know, at the time, it felt maybe much more like a dizzy record than any anything else, which I think is probably only natural. I think it's a dizzy record. Zard. Yeah, I mean it's kind of like the three of you guys. I mean, you know it's it's named Sunny seven. It was Busy Gillespie, it was his session. I mean yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's fair, that's fair. That's such a cool record. Yeah, some people liked to lot. Some people, uh musicians, Uh really thought that that was one of my best records. Yeah, well you know what, you recorded that fifty seven, but it comes out fifty nine. The next year, nineteen sixty, Lee Morgan quoted you on a Jazz Messengers record he did your little band down. Uh just they're just this little phrase that you do. Oh really and yeah, and in League quoted you on this song called the Opener on a Jazz Messengers record just the next year. It's good. Yeah, I know. Layers a great player. Yeah, leaders should come whenever he was playing with Match and Comfortence some Aladelphia at a club there Lee would come by, you know, to have Cliffin. It means that's another guy, I mean, the young guy. They all love Cliffic so much. So anyway, that's when they meant to me. And uh, he used to play outside the cover with his uh mouthpiece alone. He would show me what he could do just playing his mouthpiece. In those who I'd say, they say, hey, man, that's good there Lee Morgan. I mean, but he's great. Man, he's a great player. You never got to play with him, did you. I don't think so. I don't think so. No. I think that's one one of the trumble players that I missed. Would have been great to hear you guys together. Man. Yeah, I wonder Roddson must have been a Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure I would have been uh inspired. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm curious as anyone you admire outside of jazz in terms of musically, Oh yeah, I admire all of the great musicians from their centuries. I like Jay as Mac, I like uh Brahms, Oh, David Cravell, I like Fat Swaer, Louis, Joard new kors Man, Luis I'm my favorite year and Alls. I like everybody. Yeah, I appreciate all Kashian music. Do you listen to music at all? Still? These days? It's yours? Three? What do you? What do you listen to? What do you enjoy listening to? Now? I never listen to too much music. It's usage. I have listened to so much music in my life. I still think music all the time. I'm still playing my horn, even though I can't play my horn anymore. I'm skill of my imagining passages that I would be fingering on my instrument, although I can't do that anymore. So I'm listening to music. I love music, and occasionally I get to hear music, aren't some of the radio stations I have on. I hear some music and I love it. But I don't go out to listen to music anymore. I don't mean go out in the street. I mean I don't seek out music anymore. It is it frustrating to hear it in a sense, since you can't you just pick up your horn and play some figures or anything. To a certain extent, I wouldn't look very completely his frustration, but that's part of it, because I hear something and I fear what I would be doing. What I can do so in a sense I was safe. This not a frustration because I love music and listening to somebody that I admire. It is great. It's a great feeling. So frustration might come a littlement because I can't contribute, being that it was part of the insig Sonny. It is um. There is a pleasure and an honor speaking with you. I hope we get to do it again. Okay, man, take it easy in God bless you as well, sir. All right man, all right, bye, Sonny. Thanks for Sonny Rollins for taking us back to some of the earliest, most important moments in American recorded music history. Do you hear your favorite Sonny Rollins songs? Check out the playlist at broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcasts, where you can find all of our new episodes. Can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced a help from Lea Rose, Jason gambrel Ent, Holiday, Rick Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chaffey. Our executive producer is Mia Lobell. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. 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