Pushkin, Pushkin. Hey everyone, this is a bit of a special episode of Broken Record, not just because it features Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, and Bruce Headlam all at once, but because it happened at the spiritual home Shangri La. Of today's guest, that's the band's Robbie Robertson, who reminisces about converting a home in Malibu into the now legendary recording studio run by Rick, before moving on to discussing the band's early days as backup for a rockabilly singer when they were known as the Hawks, and they also discussed Robbie's longtime work with director Martin Scorsese, which earned him an Oscar nomination at this year's Academy Awards. We should also note that if you liked this episode, there's a new documentary called Once We're Brothers, Robbie Robertson and the Band that will be coming out in theaters on February twenty first. This is Broken Record liner notes for the digital Age.

Pushkin, Pushkin. Hey everyone, this is a bit of a special episode of Broken Record, not just because it features Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, and Bruce Headlam all at once, but because it happened at the spiritual home Shangri La. Of today's guest, that's the band's Robbie Robertson, who reminisces about converting a home in Malibu into the now legendary recording studio run by Rick, before moving on to discussing the band's early days as backup for a rockabilly singer when they were known as the Hawks, and they also discussed Robbie's longtime work with director Martin Scorsese, which earned him an Oscar nomination at this year's Academy Awards. We should also note that if you liked this episode, there's a new documentary called Once We're Brothers, Robbie Robertson and the Band that will be coming out in theaters on February twenty first. This is Broken Record liner notes for the digital Age.

I'm justin Mischmer.

I'm justin Mischmer.

Here's Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, and Bruce Headlam from Shangri La speaking with the studios architect Robbie Robertson.

Here's Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, and Bruce Headlam from Shangri La speaking with the studios architect Robbie Robertson.

We had a fantastic day the other day here, and when I was telling the stories of Shangri Law, you know, the stories.

We had a fantastic day the other day here, and when I was telling the stories of Shangri Law, you know, the stories.

He envisioned this place and built it and it was unbelievable.

He envisioned this place and built it and it was unbelievable.

And it was mine. You know. The other guys in the band thought this was a good idea. But from Big Pink to Sammy Davis Junior's house to the Wars, we made these wrecks in not in studios and other places where there was an atmosphere and that could be our atmosphere, fear and our sound, you know, and everything was not on somebody else's way of doing somebody else's wavelength. You know. You would go into the studio and there'd be these used to be these Union guys, and they'd be like, oh, it looks like it's lunchtime. We're like, what are you talking about lunchtime? Where were you know? We're about to do something, and and they'd be there and I'd be like, I don't know, this should be louder. Don't touch that, you know, So I don't want that. I don't I don't want to do that. So I said, what we're going to do is we're going to make these clubhouse, these workshop, these studio things. That is our world and our music, our sound. And whether it was true or or not, I believed that it gave it a character and a thing, which it did for better or worse.

And it was mine. You know. The other guys in the band thought this was a good idea. But from Big Pink to Sammy Davis Junior's house to the Wars, we made these wrecks in not in studios and other places where there was an atmosphere and that could be our atmosphere, fear and our sound, you know, and everything was not on somebody else's way of doing somebody else's wavelength. You know. You would go into the studio and there'd be these used to be these Union guys, and they'd be like, oh, it looks like it's lunchtime. We're like, what are you talking about lunchtime? Where were you know? We're about to do something, and and they'd be there and I'd be like, I don't know, this should be louder. Don't touch that, you know, So I don't want that. I don't I don't want to do that. So I said, what we're going to do is we're going to make these clubhouse, these workshop, these studio things. That is our world and our music, our sound. And whether it was true or or not, I believed that it gave it a character and a thing, which it did for better or worse.

What's interesting about that too, is that now it's become more the norm. Yeah, that said, when you did it technologically, it was much more difficult to do. Like, when you did it you needed big studio equipment. Like today people can do it on their laptop, so they could it's easier to make that jump. But when you did it, the infrastructure involved was not easy to pull off.

What's interesting about that too, is that now it's become more the norm. Yeah, that said, when you did it technologically, it was much more difficult to do. Like, when you did it you needed big studio equipment. Like today people can do it on their laptop, so they could it's easier to make that jump. But when you did it, the infrastructure involved was not easy to pull off.

It was unheard of except for Les Paul. Les Paul said, I'm going to build a studio at my house, and I'm gonna build an echo chamber into the side of this hill, right and he was going to do all of these things. I had an argument the other day with Van Morrison about being able to do this kind of thing, and because he was saying, I only like to play live just with my band, and I go in and we sing and they play this song and we kept capture a moment. We've all done that. I know it really well. I played ricks some music the other day. That was all like first or second takes, and it was you know.

It was unheard of except for Les Paul. Les Paul said, I'm going to build a studio at my house, and I'm gonna build an echo chamber into the side of this hill, right and he was going to do all of these things. I had an argument the other day with Van Morrison about being able to do this kind of thing, and because he was saying, I only like to play live just with my band, and I go in and we sing and they play this song and we kept capture a moment. We've all done that. I know it really well. I played ricks some music the other day. That was all like first or second takes, and it was you know.

Songs you've heard, Yeah, songs you've heard a lot.

Songs you've heard, Yeah, songs you've heard a lot.

So anyway, Savannah saying, it's got to be live and it's got to be bah and that's the way it used to be and it's the way it Choob and I said, well, what about Les Paul. He overdubbed, he made things, he played on top of himself, he double track things, He invented it. So so Van says, I know, but he was magic.

So anyway, Savannah saying, it's got to be live and it's got to be bah and that's the way it used to be and it's the way it Choob and I said, well, what about Les Paul. He overdubbed, he made things, he played on top of himself, he double track things, He invented it. So so Van says, I know, but he was magic.

Wait you made you did? You recorded at Sammy Davis Junior's house.

Wait you made you did? You recorded at Sammy Davis Junior's house.

Yes, we made the band album, the Brown Album. Uh. And we rented Sammy Davis Junior's house in the Hollywood it's up Sunset Plaza up in the Hollywood Hills, and we all stayed in the house with the family. And we turned the pool house where he used to have his parties with Frank Sinatra and the rat Back and all these people. We turned that pool house into a studio. And the record company thought this was the worst idea they ever heard. They thought this was ridiculous. He said, drive fifteen minutes. We have the best studio in the world. Here Frank's upper records here right, all of this stuff, and I was like, no, no, no, this is a different thing. And finally they were like, okay, okay, I guess I don't know what you're doing and it's probably going to be bad. But didn't show up. Sammy Davis Junior, he owned, he still owned the house. He didn't live there.

Yes, we made the band album, the Brown Album. Uh. And we rented Sammy Davis Junior's house in the Hollywood it's up Sunset Plaza up in the Hollywood Hills, and we all stayed in the house with the family. And we turned the pool house where he used to have his parties with Frank Sinatra and the rat Back and all these people. We turned that pool house into a studio. And the record company thought this was the worst idea they ever heard. They thought this was ridiculous. He said, drive fifteen minutes. We have the best studio in the world. Here Frank's upper records here right, all of this stuff, and I was like, no, no, no, this is a different thing. And finally they were like, okay, okay, I guess I don't know what you're doing and it's probably going to be bad. But didn't show up. Sammy Davis Junior, he owned, he still owned the house. He didn't live there.

I was imagining him like live there, stepping in on one of your recordings halls.

I was imagining him like live there, stepping in on one of your recordings halls.

But everything in the house was built lower. You go into the bathroom and the sink was down here, and it was everything was built to his specifications, you know. And and it seemed like this is great, this is great Sammy's world, you know, amazing. And so we recorded the album there and then we mix it, or we're going to mix the record. And there's this guy in New York, Tony May was his name, and he had mixed the Isley Brothers. It's your thing, do what you want to do. So it was such a great sounding record, we said, wow, let's see if we can get Tony May to mix this. And he worked with Phil Ramone and all these people there. So anyway, he comes in and he puts up the tapes and everything, and he says, these tapes are awful. I'm gonna have to do a lot of work on this. And I thought, hmm, I don't know if I like that, you know. So anyway, he did a mix that was not what I wanted at all. It's not the way I heard it at all. So anyway, we're like, thanks, Tony, so you you know. And and we.

But everything in the house was built lower. You go into the bathroom and the sink was down here, and it was everything was built to his specifications, you know. And and it seemed like this is great, this is great Sammy's world, you know, amazing. And so we recorded the album there and then we mix it, or we're going to mix the record. And there's this guy in New York, Tony May was his name, and he had mixed the Isley Brothers. It's your thing, do what you want to do. So it was such a great sounding record, we said, wow, let's see if we can get Tony May to mix this. And he worked with Phil Ramone and all these people there. So anyway, he comes in and he puts up the tapes and everything, and he says, these tapes are awful. I'm gonna have to do a lot of work on this. And I thought, hmm, I don't know if I like that, you know. So anyway, he did a mix that was not what I wanted at all. It's not the way I heard it at all. So anyway, we're like, thanks, Tony, so you you know. And and we.

Saw on which songs are these?

Saw on which songs are these?

These were on the band album It was the night they drove Old Dixie down up on Crippled Creek, you know, Whispering Pines.

These were on the band album It was the night they drove Old Dixie down up on Crippled Creek, you know, Whispering Pines.

One was wrong with his mixes.

One was wrong with his mixes.

His mixes were trying to make this slick and bright, and there was a woodiness to it. There was a muddiness to it that suited the music. It was earthy and I wanted that right. But he didn't get the jokes. So that was okay. So I went and mixed the album with a guy, another guy at the old Jerry Ragovoice Hit Factory in New York. This guy mixed the album. We mixed at the guys in the band. We were all in there moving the faders and got it the way that I wanted. So we get it and then it's like Okay, the guy, the mastering guy, his name is Bob Ludwig. You got to get him to master your record. So we take the record to Bob Ludwig and he puts it, you know, he puts on the tape of the mixes and everything, and he says, oh boy, He's like Tony May. He's like, I don't know. I'm gonna try. I'll see if I can fix this or save this. And I'm like, hmm, that's really depressing. So I go and I tell the other guys. I said, I don't know, we might have done this all wrong. Everybody's saying it's it's terror carrible and that, you know. So the next I don't know. A couple of days later, Bob Ludwick caused me and he says, I am such an idiot. I am such a fool. I didn't get it. I so get it. This is maybe the most interesting record I've ever heard. He said, I am so sorry. And he told me, Bob Ludwick, he said, I made the same mistake when sly Stone brought me there's a riot going on. I thought that that was a big mistake too, and he said, and then I've realized it you know, I had to accept it the way that I accepted your record. And so I was like, because I thought he was right, you know, And if he had a stayed with that, I don't know what would have happened. So he you know, he mastered and it hardly did anything to it in the mastering, and it was just one of those things. It was a homemade thing. It did have that character to it, and that was part of its specialness.

His mixes were trying to make this slick and bright, and there was a woodiness to it. There was a muddiness to it that suited the music. It was earthy and I wanted that right. But he didn't get the jokes. So that was okay. So I went and mixed the album with a guy, another guy at the old Jerry Ragovoice Hit Factory in New York. This guy mixed the album. We mixed at the guys in the band. We were all in there moving the faders and got it the way that I wanted. So we get it and then it's like Okay, the guy, the mastering guy, his name is Bob Ludwig. You got to get him to master your record. So we take the record to Bob Ludwig and he puts it, you know, he puts on the tape of the mixes and everything, and he says, oh boy, He's like Tony May. He's like, I don't know. I'm gonna try. I'll see if I can fix this or save this. And I'm like, hmm, that's really depressing. So I go and I tell the other guys. I said, I don't know, we might have done this all wrong. Everybody's saying it's it's terror carrible and that, you know. So the next I don't know. A couple of days later, Bob Ludwick caused me and he says, I am such an idiot. I am such a fool. I didn't get it. I so get it. This is maybe the most interesting record I've ever heard. He said, I am so sorry. And he told me, Bob Ludwick, he said, I made the same mistake when sly Stone brought me there's a riot going on. I thought that that was a big mistake too, and he said, and then I've realized it you know, I had to accept it the way that I accepted your record. And so I was like, because I thought he was right, you know, And if he had a stayed with that, I don't know what would have happened. So he you know, he mastered and it hardly did anything to it in the mastering, and it was just one of those things. It was a homemade thing. It did have that character to it, and that was part of its specialness.

He came very close to ruining two of the great masterpieces.

He came very close to ruining two of the great masterpieces.

Yeah, well, I do remember.

Yeah, well, I do remember.

Actually the first songs he wrote, I goes for Ronnie Hawkins. What were they like?

Actually the first songs he wrote, I goes for Ronnie Hawkins. What were they like?

Well?

Well?

What were they?

What were they?

Well? One of the reasons he hired me. I wrote a couple of songs for him when I was fifteen years old because I heard him say that I need some songs, and I was trying to figure out how I could crash into this world of Southern rock and roll. That's the real thing. These guys are from the holy land in the South where this music grows out of the ground. So I've got this whole fantasy in my mind and everything, and these guys can do it. And they were all from the South, and they sounded that way and all of it. It's just okay. And I'm up in Canada, so you know what I mean. It feels like such a distance and I'm trying to figure out a way. How can I become a part of this. How can I get into this club and they'll accept me. So I hear them say I need some So I go off and I write a couple of songs.

Well? One of the reasons he hired me. I wrote a couple of songs for him when I was fifteen years old because I heard him say that I need some songs, and I was trying to figure out how I could crash into this world of Southern rock and roll. That's the real thing. These guys are from the holy land in the South where this music grows out of the ground. So I've got this whole fantasy in my mind and everything, and these guys can do it. And they were all from the South, and they sounded that way and all of it. It's just okay. And I'm up in Canada, so you know what I mean. It feels like such a distance and I'm trying to figure out a way. How can I become a part of this. How can I get into this club and they'll accept me. So I hear them say I need some So I go off and I write a couple of songs.

Where are you when you write these songs?

Where are you when you write these songs?

In Toronto, in Cabbage Town?

In Toronto, in Cabbage Town?

You're in high school?

You're in high school?

Yeah, I was fifteen.

Yeah, I was fifteen.

Did you know anything about writing songs?

Did you know anything about writing songs?

Well, yeah, I had written some songs already and this was just something you just kind of boosted your game up. You know. As we go along, certain things happen and it makes you think, Okay, now I got to take on this challenge and if I can, if I can win that war, will I'll now be this will be my starting place instead of your something.

Well, yeah, I had written some songs already and this was just something you just kind of boosted your game up. You know. As we go along, certain things happen and it makes you think, Okay, now I got to take on this challenge and if I can, if I can win that war, will I'll now be this will be my starting place instead of your something.

What did you hear Ronnie Hawkins say he needed some new songs?

What did you hear Ronnie Hawkins say he needed some new songs?

Well, we I had a band called Robbie and the Robots, and we were an opening, you know, act for Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks on a weekend and a dance out in the West End of Toronto at an arena. So we went on and played.

Well, we I had a band called Robbie and the Robots, and we were an opening, you know, act for Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks on a weekend and a dance out in the West End of Toronto at an arena. So we went on and played.

You're fifteen Yeah for Ronnie Hawkins.

You're fifteen Yeah for Ronnie Hawkins.

And Ronnie and the other guys. They thought, Wow, these kids are not bad, you know, they're not too bad, and that was all I needed to hear. So I was just trying to get some of it. So I was hanging around, and then they went on and killed it. I had never heard anything like that before, that far, that up close. You know, I just heard other bands. I'm from Toronto, right and or whatever. This was something and you had to get into clubs to really hear these people play. But they were doing a thing on a weekend. So I see them play and I'm like, this is unbelievable. A real rockabilly band, right like Carl Perkins and you know Elvis and you know Roy Orbison, like you're right out of that school. So I think, and the energy and the excitement and the music, and Ronnie was an amazing showm in it and he always wanted to have killer musicians and they were great. So after they played, I was just hanging around trying to get some of it to rub off on me, you know, some of that musicality. And so I was trying to be helpful and hanging around, and then I, you know, and and they ended up liking me, and they said, all right, you know at the hotel, why don't you come by? And I would just try to try to make myself useful, you know, and somebody needed a new string put on the guitar or whatever anything, you know. So I I was hanging around, and I was hanging around as much as I could without getting in the way. And one day I hear Ronnie Hawk and say, I got to make a new record, and I need some new songs, you know. So I went home and I wrote two songs and brought him back to him, said I wrote a couple of songs. I don't know if they're you know what you're looking for. So we played him the played the new songs, and he said, damn son, I'm going to record both of those.

And Ronnie and the other guys. They thought, Wow, these kids are not bad, you know, they're not too bad, and that was all I needed to hear. So I was just trying to get some of it. So I was hanging around, and then they went on and killed it. I had never heard anything like that before, that far, that up close. You know, I just heard other bands. I'm from Toronto, right and or whatever. This was something and you had to get into clubs to really hear these people play. But they were doing a thing on a weekend. So I see them play and I'm like, this is unbelievable. A real rockabilly band, right like Carl Perkins and you know Elvis and you know Roy Orbison, like you're right out of that school. So I think, and the energy and the excitement and the music, and Ronnie was an amazing showm in it and he always wanted to have killer musicians and they were great. So after they played, I was just hanging around trying to get some of it to rub off on me, you know, some of that musicality. And so I was trying to be helpful and hanging around, and then I, you know, and and they ended up liking me, and they said, all right, you know at the hotel, why don't you come by? And I would just try to try to make myself useful, you know, and somebody needed a new string put on the guitar or whatever anything, you know. So I I was hanging around, and I was hanging around as much as I could without getting in the way. And one day I hear Ronnie Hawk and say, I got to make a new record, and I need some new songs, you know. So I went home and I wrote two songs and brought him back to him, said I wrote a couple of songs. I don't know if they're you know what you're looking for. So we played him the played the new songs, and he said, damn son, I'm going to record both of those.

What was the best of them?

What was the best of them?

They weren't any good, you know. I was just trying to get in the door. So so I wrote this song called someone like You. I think didn't Adele steal that title from me on the so anyway, so he records the songs, he records, the album comes back to Toronto. They're playing at a club, the l Cock Door in Toronto. Brings me the album with the songs on it, and I'm like cutting my finger trying to get this album opened to look and see it on the song credits that everything. There's the two songs, and there's my name, but it's my name and somebody else's name. And I said, who's Levy? I didn't there was no Levy there when I wrote these songs. Lev It was Morris Levy, who owned the record company Roulette Records that Ronnie was on. So I'm like, this, God, how can he just put his name on there? So Ronnie's kind of saying, son, in this business some you know. He was just giving me the old shit happens kind of story, and I'm like, this is just wrong though he wasn't. And I'm telling Ronnie he wasn't even there when I wrote them. I'm just I'm a kid, what do I know? And Ronnie's like, listen, Son, these guys, these guys up there in New York, and you don't want to mess around with them. They're the kind of people you know that you know you're get in their way, you know, and they find you in the river. He's giving you this whole story. I'm like, in the river, he wasn't even there. So anyway, sometime later, Ronnie says to me, if you can write songs I can write, maybe you'd be good at hearing what I was good. So I'm gonna take you to New York and I'm gonna take you to the Brill Building and we're gonna meet all the songwriters and you're gonna listen to their songs and see if they something that would be good for me to record. So anyway, we go and I meet Doc Palmis and Mark Schuman, I meet Lidburn Stroller, I meet Otis Blackwell. It's in my book, Rick. When you read that and you hear this whole story, it's amazing. Otis Blackwell and Titus Turner, all of these guys, and Otis Blackwell is trying to think of a song that might be good for wrong. I'm in his little room and he's playing a thing on the piano and he's accompanying himself telling me how Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis fucked him on the song he wrote, Don't Be Cruel. While he's telling me the story and accompanying himself on the piano, right, and it's like this is amazing, you know. And then Lieber and Stoller are playing me songs and I'm like, wow, that is a liber in Stoller and I'm saying it's great. Do you haven't any more? Then? And finally Jerry Lieber says to me, and who are you again? And I said, oh, I'm just you know what I was like, I was in heaven. And Doc Palmis and Lieber and Stoller and Thomas and Schumann went on to be friends of mine for the rest of their life, as long as they live. We were still in contact and friends of mine from that very early point. So we are recording, I mean, I'm listening to songs. Ronnie says, well, we have to go up to the record company and we have to see Morris about some things and everything. I think, great, we'll get this songwriting thing straightened out once and for all. Right, So we go up to this office and it's like a scene right out of that Damien Runyon would have written. Is there are blondes on the telephone with their hair perfectly over one eye, right out of a movie, right, And then there's these guys in mohair suits with pock marks and a bulge in their you know, in their suit Like on this one side, I'm thinking, Wow, these people think it's real, you know, they're living in this thing and it maybe it is real. Right. So then the door opens and Marrie Levy says, Ronnie, Ronnie, I love this guy, Ronnie, come on in. And I think what happens to gangsters when they're young that their voice goes like that. All these gangsters seem to talk this way.

They weren't any good, you know. I was just trying to get in the door. So so I wrote this song called someone like You. I think didn't Adele steal that title from me on the so anyway, so he records the songs, he records, the album comes back to Toronto. They're playing at a club, the l Cock Door in Toronto. Brings me the album with the songs on it, and I'm like cutting my finger trying to get this album opened to look and see it on the song credits that everything. There's the two songs, and there's my name, but it's my name and somebody else's name. And I said, who's Levy? I didn't there was no Levy there when I wrote these songs. Lev It was Morris Levy, who owned the record company Roulette Records that Ronnie was on. So I'm like, this, God, how can he just put his name on there? So Ronnie's kind of saying, son, in this business some you know. He was just giving me the old shit happens kind of story, and I'm like, this is just wrong though he wasn't. And I'm telling Ronnie he wasn't even there when I wrote them. I'm just I'm a kid, what do I know? And Ronnie's like, listen, Son, these guys, these guys up there in New York, and you don't want to mess around with them. They're the kind of people you know that you know you're get in their way, you know, and they find you in the river. He's giving you this whole story. I'm like, in the river, he wasn't even there. So anyway, sometime later, Ronnie says to me, if you can write songs I can write, maybe you'd be good at hearing what I was good. So I'm gonna take you to New York and I'm gonna take you to the Brill Building and we're gonna meet all the songwriters and you're gonna listen to their songs and see if they something that would be good for me to record. So anyway, we go and I meet Doc Palmis and Mark Schuman, I meet Lidburn Stroller, I meet Otis Blackwell. It's in my book, Rick. When you read that and you hear this whole story, it's amazing. Otis Blackwell and Titus Turner, all of these guys, and Otis Blackwell is trying to think of a song that might be good for wrong. I'm in his little room and he's playing a thing on the piano and he's accompanying himself telling me how Colonel Tom Parker and Elvis fucked him on the song he wrote, Don't Be Cruel. While he's telling me the story and accompanying himself on the piano, right, and it's like this is amazing, you know. And then Lieber and Stoller are playing me songs and I'm like, wow, that is a liber in Stoller and I'm saying it's great. Do you haven't any more? Then? And finally Jerry Lieber says to me, and who are you again? And I said, oh, I'm just you know what I was like, I was in heaven. And Doc Palmis and Lieber and Stoller and Thomas and Schumann went on to be friends of mine for the rest of their life, as long as they live. We were still in contact and friends of mine from that very early point. So we are recording, I mean, I'm listening to songs. Ronnie says, well, we have to go up to the record company and we have to see Morris about some things and everything. I think, great, we'll get this songwriting thing straightened out once and for all. Right, So we go up to this office and it's like a scene right out of that Damien Runyon would have written. Is there are blondes on the telephone with their hair perfectly over one eye, right out of a movie, right, And then there's these guys in mohair suits with pock marks and a bulge in their you know, in their suit Like on this one side, I'm thinking, Wow, these people think it's real, you know, they're living in this thing and it maybe it is real. Right. So then the door opens and Marrie Levy says, Ronnie, Ronnie, I love this guy, Ronnie, come on in. And I think what happens to gangsters when they're young that their voice goes like that. All these gangsters seem to talk this way.

How old was mars Levy at this time? What do you say?

How old was mars Levy at this time? What do you say?

I don't know. I would say late thirties.

I don't know. I would say late thirties.

Wow, how old are you?

Wow, how old are you?

I'm a fifty and a half. I'm by now, I'm pushing sixteen, right. So anyway, so we go in and Ronnie Hawkins is doing his thing. He's doing the camera walk and stuff, and Morris just loves him. So he says, Morris, this is this kid I was telling you about that I think has a lot of potential. Right. So Morris is there and he finally looks at me. He says, yeah. He said, if you have to do any time, it'd be good to have him with you. And I'm like, what is it? He means if you have to go to prison, he could be your boy. And I'm like, I'm going to forego this songwriting problem completely. I can't believe that's the joke that he's telling you. So anyway, after this stuff and we and we did find some songs that he recorded, and then a few months later he calls me and tells me to come down to Arkansas to try out because I'm getting better and better as a guitar player. And he does think, I don't know what it is, but this guy's got something or another. And then I go on this mission to prove because at sixteen years old, I don't have the experience. I'm not a good enough musician yet. And I'm from Canada. It's no Canadians and rockabilly bands, so it was unheard of. So I had a big mountain to climb and that and I went down there and I ended up winning that battle.

I'm a fifty and a half. I'm by now, I'm pushing sixteen, right. So anyway, so we go in and Ronnie Hawkins is doing his thing. He's doing the camera walk and stuff, and Morris just loves him. So he says, Morris, this is this kid I was telling you about that I think has a lot of potential. Right. So Morris is there and he finally looks at me. He says, yeah. He said, if you have to do any time, it'd be good to have him with you. And I'm like, what is it? He means if you have to go to prison, he could be your boy. And I'm like, I'm going to forego this songwriting problem completely. I can't believe that's the joke that he's telling you. So anyway, after this stuff and we and we did find some songs that he recorded, and then a few months later he calls me and tells me to come down to Arkansas to try out because I'm getting better and better as a guitar player. And he does think, I don't know what it is, but this guy's got something or another. And then I go on this mission to prove because at sixteen years old, I don't have the experience. I'm not a good enough musician yet. And I'm from Canada. It's no Canadians and rockabilly bands, so it was unheard of. So I had a big mountain to climb and that and I went down there and I ended up winning that battle.

How much did you practice back then? Do you remember, like to get in your mind to get the job. What was it like.

How much did you practice back then? Do you remember, like to get in your mind to get the job. What was it like.

I practiced till my fingers were bleeding, and I woke up many mornings and the bed beside me was my guitar. So I just thought I can't. I can't let this go by because just to convince my mother too, at sixteen years old, I'm leaving school and I'm going to the Mississippi Delta to join up with a rock and roll band. You know, She's like, what you know, she doesn't even understand what this could possibly mean, except she could see in my eyes this thing that was so driven and that it was I And it was like, if I don't try, if I don't do this, I'm gonna be sorry the rest of my life. This is the biggest opportunity it you know, it couldn't have been in my mind a bigger, you know, bigger thing. So and I went down there and Ronnie Hawkins was like, oh, Son, you're too young, you're too good. I don't know if this is going to work out. And I was like, you'll see, and I play. I lied about my age, you know, for you know, five years.

I practiced till my fingers were bleeding, and I woke up many mornings and the bed beside me was my guitar. So I just thought I can't. I can't let this go by because just to convince my mother too, at sixteen years old, I'm leaving school and I'm going to the Mississippi Delta to join up with a rock and roll band. You know, She's like, what you know, she doesn't even understand what this could possibly mean, except she could see in my eyes this thing that was so driven and that it was I And it was like, if I don't try, if I don't do this, I'm gonna be sorry the rest of my life. This is the biggest opportunity it you know, it couldn't have been in my mind a bigger, you know, bigger thing. So and I went down there and Ronnie Hawkins was like, oh, Son, you're too young, you're too good. I don't know if this is going to work out. And I was like, you'll see, and I play. I lied about my age, you know, for you know, five years.

Did you did you look older than fifteen at fifteen?

Did you did you look older than fifteen at fifteen?

I was sixteen now sixteen? And Ronnie Hawkins actually said to me, he would say, son, can you do something? Can you shave? Can you I didn't even shave at the time, and I didn't know what to do. And I got an electric razor and I started shaving nothing, and my face was raw from this electrics. All it did was make me red. It didn't make me grow any whiskers or nothing. And so for the first while where we played, I would stand kind of back a little bit in the dark, you know, and because there would be lights and everything, and I knew just to get out of the way of the lights. And then between sets that we would play, I would just go in the back room and stay there till it was time to go on again, because there was club guys saying, hey, I don't want you to get me shut down to Ronnie, of course, and Ronnie was like, no, no, don't worry about it all. Oh blah blah blah blah. And he had to do all this double talking and things, and he would say, no, no, no, it's like we call him babyface. He just he just looks young, you know, he's old enough, he just looks young. But Levon he joined Ronnie when he was eighteen, after he graduated from high school, and he looked very young, and they got away with it. So he thought, well, if he could get it away with it from him, you know, And then a year after I was with Ronnie Hawkins. All the guys from the South except Levon were leaving one by one, and then one by one we were hiring Canadians. We hired Rick Danko who was from Simcoe, Ontario, then Richard Manuel who was from Stratford, Ontario, then Garths Hudson who was from London, Ontario. And they all had their own bands, so we were, you know, stealing the leaders of all of these bands. I was one of those too, and that Levon, and I said, we got to get that kid. He's you know, he's got potential.

I was sixteen now sixteen? And Ronnie Hawkins actually said to me, he would say, son, can you do something? Can you shave? Can you I didn't even shave at the time, and I didn't know what to do. And I got an electric razor and I started shaving nothing, and my face was raw from this electrics. All it did was make me red. It didn't make me grow any whiskers or nothing. And so for the first while where we played, I would stand kind of back a little bit in the dark, you know, and because there would be lights and everything, and I knew just to get out of the way of the lights. And then between sets that we would play, I would just go in the back room and stay there till it was time to go on again, because there was club guys saying, hey, I don't want you to get me shut down to Ronnie, of course, and Ronnie was like, no, no, don't worry about it all. Oh blah blah blah blah. And he had to do all this double talking and things, and he would say, no, no, no, it's like we call him babyface. He just he just looks young, you know, he's old enough, he just looks young. But Levon he joined Ronnie when he was eighteen, after he graduated from high school, and he looked very young, and they got away with it. So he thought, well, if he could get it away with it from him, you know, And then a year after I was with Ronnie Hawkins. All the guys from the South except Levon were leaving one by one, and then one by one we were hiring Canadians. We hired Rick Danko who was from Simcoe, Ontario, then Richard Manuel who was from Stratford, Ontario, then Garths Hudson who was from London, Ontario. And they all had their own bands, so we were, you know, stealing the leaders of all of these bands. I was one of those too, and that Levon, and I said, we got to get that kid. He's you know, he's got potential.

We'll be back with more from Robbie Robertson after the break. We're back with more from Robbie robertson.

We'll be back with more from Robbie Robertson after the break. We're back with more from Robbie robertson.

When and all this did you start writing the music that became what we know as band music. Not the actual songs, but when did you start hitting on those ideas.

When and all this did you start writing the music that became what we know as band music. Not the actual songs, but when did you start hitting on those ideas.

When the Hawks were the personnel the people that went on to become the band. At one point, we outgrew the music that we were doing with Ronnie Hawkins, and we were experimenting with other kinds of songs and and other kinds of music and reaching deeper and getting better and better and finally it's you know, we couldn't stay in that place, so we left Ronnie Hawkins. So when we left Ronnie Hawkins, the idea was, Okay, we're going to go out and we're going to play some gigs and everything, and then we're going to get a record deal, you know, and become who we are, you know. And so I started messing around with writing some ideas because I was the only one that thought about songwriting in the group at that time, because I had written songs before. It was kind of like, okay, I guess someone's got to do it. I got to do it right, And so I started writing some things then. And then just as we were getting a record deal and starting to do something, this this fellow named Bob Dylan came along and asked if we would help take him electric and be his band on a world tour. So that kind of, you know, it just put everything on hold a little bit. But it was like a phenomenal experience what this guy was doing at the time. This is just when he was going from being the you know, the the man in folk songwriting to wanting to do something else and wanting to play make music with other musicians and not just him in a guitar and harmonica, and that was really interesting to me. He was really interesting to me. I loved this idea. Some of the other guys were like, hmm, I'm not sure about this. You know, we were on the from the other side of the tracks. We weren't from the folk music world at all. So anyway, it was like an interesting experiment in terror playing with Bob Dylan, and we toured with him all over North America, all over Australia, all over Europe, and people booed and threw stuff at us every night, just about everywhere we played, and you couldn't help but think, well, who else has been through this? Who else knows how this feels. There wasn't anybody on that list. I didn't know that this had ever happened before, and I'm sure, but not with somebody who's on the crest of changing music forever and writing songs like nobody's ever written before, and all of this stuff that every night we get booed and we get through this whole thing alive. So after we got through it alive, then it was really time for me to start thinking about writing songs because it was like, we've done the experiment with Bob Dylan. Now we got to get back to doing our own thing. And that's when we were doing the basement tapes at Big Pink, and it's where, you know, when I started writing and thinking about who are we, what do we sound like? What are these stories?

When the Hawks were the personnel the people that went on to become the band. At one point, we outgrew the music that we were doing with Ronnie Hawkins, and we were experimenting with other kinds of songs and and other kinds of music and reaching deeper and getting better and better and finally it's you know, we couldn't stay in that place, so we left Ronnie Hawkins. So when we left Ronnie Hawkins, the idea was, Okay, we're going to go out and we're going to play some gigs and everything, and then we're going to get a record deal, you know, and become who we are, you know. And so I started messing around with writing some ideas because I was the only one that thought about songwriting in the group at that time, because I had written songs before. It was kind of like, okay, I guess someone's got to do it. I got to do it right, And so I started writing some things then. And then just as we were getting a record deal and starting to do something, this this fellow named Bob Dylan came along and asked if we would help take him electric and be his band on a world tour. So that kind of, you know, it just put everything on hold a little bit. But it was like a phenomenal experience what this guy was doing at the time. This is just when he was going from being the you know, the the man in folk songwriting to wanting to do something else and wanting to play make music with other musicians and not just him in a guitar and harmonica, and that was really interesting to me. He was really interesting to me. I loved this idea. Some of the other guys were like, hmm, I'm not sure about this. You know, we were on the from the other side of the tracks. We weren't from the folk music world at all. So anyway, it was like an interesting experiment in terror playing with Bob Dylan, and we toured with him all over North America, all over Australia, all over Europe, and people booed and threw stuff at us every night, just about everywhere we played, and you couldn't help but think, well, who else has been through this? Who else knows how this feels. There wasn't anybody on that list. I didn't know that this had ever happened before, and I'm sure, but not with somebody who's on the crest of changing music forever and writing songs like nobody's ever written before, and all of this stuff that every night we get booed and we get through this whole thing alive. So after we got through it alive, then it was really time for me to start thinking about writing songs because it was like, we've done the experiment with Bob Dylan. Now we got to get back to doing our own thing. And that's when we were doing the basement tapes at Big Pink, and it's where, you know, when I started writing and thinking about who are we, what do we sound like? What are these stories?

He's yeah, you said that Bob Dylan was interesting to you. Why were you interesting to Bob Dylan?

He's yeah, you said that Bob Dylan was interesting to you. Why were you interesting to Bob Dylan?

Probably because we were a real band, a real band that played. We weren't some studio musicians that you could hire. We were a band that knew how to play with one another and had a language already that we spoke with one another. And so this unit coming in that had a sound, that had a thing amongst them, you know, it was like something ready made. In the beginning, when I first met with him, he was trying to hire me away from the group to play guitar with him and some other musicians, and so I had to say, no, no, I'm with a group. We're a brotherhood.

Probably because we were a real band, a real band that played. We weren't some studio musicians that you could hire. We were a band that knew how to play with one another and had a language already that we spoke with one another. And so this unit coming in that had a sound, that had a thing amongst them, you know, it was like something ready made. In the beginning, when I first met with him, he was trying to hire me away from the group to play guitar with him and some other musicians, and so I had to say, no, no, I'm with a group. We're a brotherhood.

So he was fine with did he.

So he was fine with did he.

Know he wasn't fine in the beginning, And he was like, no, no, I got some other guys and you know that are really good and everything, and I was like, then, I can't do it, you know. And so so he came around.

Know he wasn't fine in the beginning, And he was like, no, no, I got some other guys and you know that are really good and everything, and I was like, then, I can't do it, you know. And so so he came around.

Was there a tryout or he just said, let's do.

Was there a tryout or he just said, let's do.

This, you know what the tryout was? So I played two jobs with him and I said, I can only do it if Levon is there too, and and so yeah, he said to me, he's a drummer. He said, is he as good? There was this big studio drummer at the time, Bobby Greg was his name, and he said, is he as good as Bobby Greg? I said, oh no, he's better than Bobby Greg, you know, and he said, oh okay. So anyway, we Levon and I played with him and some other musicians for just two jobs we said we would do. And it was at Forest Hills in New York and the Hollywood Bowl and they and they booed, you know, it was like whoa, what's that about? And charge the stage and I hated it.

This, you know what the tryout was? So I played two jobs with him and I said, I can only do it if Levon is there too, and and so yeah, he said to me, he's a drummer. He said, is he as good? There was this big studio drummer at the time, Bobby Greg was his name, and he said, is he as good as Bobby Greg? I said, oh no, he's better than Bobby Greg, you know, and he said, oh okay. So anyway, we Levon and I played with him and some other musicians for just two jobs we said we would do. And it was at Forest Hills in New York and the Hollywood Bowl and they and they booed, you know, it was like whoa, what's that about? And charge the stage and I hated it.

What was your reaction to that?

What was your reaction to that?

We just played louder and they hated it more. And I thought, if Bob can handle us, we can handle this.

We just played louder and they hated it more. And I thought, if Bob can handle us, we can handle this.

You know.

You know.

And so we just kept going and going and it was hurtful. And then there was a point in this tour because sometimes they would tape the shows, you know, on reel to reel. They would tape it and see how that soundman would see how it was sounding, because it was like, maybe it's a soundman a fault. So there was a point in the tour where we have one of these tapes and after the show, we're sitting in the hotel room listening to this tape and I said to the other guys and Bob, they're wrong, they're wrong. This is good, this is really good, and the world is wrong and we're right. And it wasn't because I was sure of that. It was because if you didn't say that, it would be like this is We're in a terrible situation. And it just gave you the feistiess, or the strength to say we're doing something here and if you don't get it, it's your fault. You had to take that attitude. And we played all over the world and ended up with people booing as loud as ever. And we're playing at Albert Hall in London and the Beatles are there, and the Stones are there, and the Who were there, and everybody's there and the audience is booing us and they're all watching this and that is that's really awkward. When there's people musicians that you want to impress and everybody's booing you, You think, how do you possibly think we're any good when everybody's booing us.

And so we just kept going and going and it was hurtful. And then there was a point in this tour because sometimes they would tape the shows, you know, on reel to reel. They would tape it and see how that soundman would see how it was sounding, because it was like, maybe it's a soundman a fault. So there was a point in the tour where we have one of these tapes and after the show, we're sitting in the hotel room listening to this tape and I said to the other guys and Bob, they're wrong, they're wrong. This is good, this is really good, and the world is wrong and we're right. And it wasn't because I was sure of that. It was because if you didn't say that, it would be like this is We're in a terrible situation. And it just gave you the feistiess, or the strength to say we're doing something here and if you don't get it, it's your fault. You had to take that attitude. And we played all over the world and ended up with people booing as loud as ever. And we're playing at Albert Hall in London and the Beatles are there, and the Stones are there, and the Who were there, and everybody's there and the audience is booing us and they're all watching this and that is that's really awkward. When there's people musicians that you want to impress and everybody's booing you, You think, how do you possibly think we're any good when everybody's booing us.

Those guys like it, though, the Stone the Beatles.

Those guys like it, though, the Stone the Beatles.

The Beatles said, don't pay any attention to that. They're wrong. This was really good, so I was kind of like, see.

The Beatles said, don't pay any attention to that. They're wrong. This was really good, so I was kind of like, see.

But Levon didn't like it though.

But Levon didn't like it though.

He didn't like that. Nobody likes being booed and people throwing stuff at you. You know, I'm I'm quite convinced of that. But Levon didn't like the music. He didn't like Bob Dylan's music. He didn't like any of this and didn't want to be playing with him at all. Levon left. Then when we all moved to Woodstock and we had Big Pink, we called Levon and said, okay, you got to it's time to come back. And he came back, and Bob was like a different guy. He looked completely different, and he was writing songs and he was you know, it was just great. And Levon came back and loved it all, loved being you know, back with his brothers, and loved Bob and came around on the music, he understood something, he had time to understand it. Plus the songs that I was starting to write, he was like, Oh, that's who we are, you know. So the pieces were coming together and he came back into the fold bigger and stronger than ever.

He didn't like that. Nobody likes being booed and people throwing stuff at you. You know, I'm I'm quite convinced of that. But Levon didn't like the music. He didn't like Bob Dylan's music. He didn't like any of this and didn't want to be playing with him at all. Levon left. Then when we all moved to Woodstock and we had Big Pink, we called Levon and said, okay, you got to it's time to come back. And he came back, and Bob was like a different guy. He looked completely different, and he was writing songs and he was you know, it was just great. And Levon came back and loved it all, loved being you know, back with his brothers, and loved Bob and came around on the music, he understood something, he had time to understand it. Plus the songs that I was starting to write, he was like, Oh, that's who we are, you know. So the pieces were coming together and he came back into the fold bigger and stronger than ever.

When did you know you had or was there a particular song that, when you finished you said, okay, this is our sound. I think I'm getting it. Was there one moment or one song that kind of gave you the idea for what the band could be.

When did you know you had or was there a particular song that, when you finished you said, okay, this is our sound. I think I'm getting it. Was there one moment or one song that kind of gave you the idea for what the band could be.

No, I didn't know. We were just experimenting and in a discovery process. I didn't know it until we were recording it. And I was playing something for Rick the other day that we recorded something and it was breaking all kinds of rules and the way you record and what you do and what you're not supposed to do and everything. And we were trying this and it was discouraging what they were telling us going into it, but we were doing what we knew how to do, and we recorded it, and then we went in and heard it and I said, that's it. That's who we are, that's what we sound like. And it was unlike anybody else or anything. And still at the time you think, and that's either a good thing or a bad thing. That song was what Well, there was two songs that I played for him. One song was called Tears of Rage, which was the first song that we recorded on the album, and it's the first song on the album. And then we recorded a song called The Weight. And then when we recorded these songs, it was like, Okay.

No, I didn't know. We were just experimenting and in a discovery process. I didn't know it until we were recording it. And I was playing something for Rick the other day that we recorded something and it was breaking all kinds of rules and the way you record and what you do and what you're not supposed to do and everything. And we were trying this and it was discouraging what they were telling us going into it, but we were doing what we knew how to do, and we recorded it, and then we went in and heard it and I said, that's it. That's who we are, that's what we sound like. And it was unlike anybody else or anything. And still at the time you think, and that's either a good thing or a bad thing. That song was what Well, there was two songs that I played for him. One song was called Tears of Rage, which was the first song that we recorded on the album, and it's the first song on the album. And then we recorded a song called The Weight. And then when we recorded these songs, it was like, Okay.

Can you tell me a little bit about writing the Weight because it's just such an unusual song, like how it came to you?

Can you tell me a little bit about writing the Weight because it's just such an unusual song, like how it came to you?

Or well, I was saying, this was a song, This was a spare song. This was a song that I had that if something else didn't work out, we could use it. So we had to put it together mostly right there in the studio. I had played it for the guys before and everybody thought, yeah, cool, you know, but nobody was like, whoa, that's it, that's a you know, none of us knew. And then when I was writing this song, I was drawing on these influences from when I was sixteen years old and went from Canada down to the Mississippi Delta. Some of those characters, some of those images, you know, I had now pulled them out of my trunk of imagination, and I was incorporating them into a musicality and in the stories. And I was also very much which you know, I've said this before that I was very much into Lewis Boonewell's films. And there was there was something, there was something in his the a thematic thread in some of his movies that I couldn't get over. And it was really about people trying to be good, really trying to do the right thing, and then something comes along and something turns it upside down on its head, right. And so this was a story about a guy who comes into this town. It's called Nazareth, and it's because that's where the guitar company is from. So I look in my guitar and it says Nazareth, Pennsylvania. Right. So I look in there and I say, I pulled into Nazareth, right. And I start writing this story and it's about a guy who goes somewhere and everybody that he runs into it's like he's just trying to be of goodwill. He's just trying to do the right thing, and it turns into it's like the old saying, it depends on who you run into. And storytelling you're going along, you think you've got an idea, but it depends on who you run into, right, And so I'm thinking of all of these characters, and some of them are based on characters that I imagined or I met when I went down to the mississip Be Delta, and I'm thinking, what would be really cool for Levon. I knew his instrument really well, of his voice and everything, and I thought I thought I was doing a Lewis Boone Weell thing. I wasn't, but I thought I was right, and I thought I was, and I when I wrote the song, I thought, well, there's a song. I never heard that song before. Maybe that's good, you know, but it was unfamiliar, and so with that you think, geez, I don't know is that good or bad? Is that different or just obscure, you know, like record producers have to consider when they're making music. And so when I taught the song to the guys, and everybody was kind of enjoying. They knew where I was coming from and some of these things. The other guys didn't care about Lewis boonwell or anything, but I did. And so anyway, they took the ride on it and as we were getting into it, we were kind of smiling to one another, like that verse that Carmen and the Devil verse, you know, that's pretty cool. And then all this thing and ah, and then it has like a conclusion that ties it together or something like a movie would all of these things. I've just been a movie bug, you know, so long. So anyway, I was making a little movie. And then we record the song and I have no idea except we got through the whole song, didn't make a mistake, felt pretty good. We went in and listened to it and I thought, holy moly, that's a thing. That's a thing right there. That's a sound that's I haven't heard that before, you know, And all of those things then add up for you inside.

Or well, I was saying, this was a song, This was a spare song. This was a song that I had that if something else didn't work out, we could use it. So we had to put it together mostly right there in the studio. I had played it for the guys before and everybody thought, yeah, cool, you know, but nobody was like, whoa, that's it, that's a you know, none of us knew. And then when I was writing this song, I was drawing on these influences from when I was sixteen years old and went from Canada down to the Mississippi Delta. Some of those characters, some of those images, you know, I had now pulled them out of my trunk of imagination, and I was incorporating them into a musicality and in the stories. And I was also very much which you know, I've said this before that I was very much into Lewis Boonewell's films. And there was there was something, there was something in his the a thematic thread in some of his movies that I couldn't get over. And it was really about people trying to be good, really trying to do the right thing, and then something comes along and something turns it upside down on its head, right. And so this was a story about a guy who comes into this town. It's called Nazareth, and it's because that's where the guitar company is from. So I look in my guitar and it says Nazareth, Pennsylvania. Right. So I look in there and I say, I pulled into Nazareth, right. And I start writing this story and it's about a guy who goes somewhere and everybody that he runs into it's like he's just trying to be of goodwill. He's just trying to do the right thing, and it turns into it's like the old saying, it depends on who you run into. And storytelling you're going along, you think you've got an idea, but it depends on who you run into, right, And so I'm thinking of all of these characters, and some of them are based on characters that I imagined or I met when I went down to the mississip Be Delta, and I'm thinking, what would be really cool for Levon. I knew his instrument really well, of his voice and everything, and I thought I thought I was doing a Lewis Boone Weell thing. I wasn't, but I thought I was right, and I thought I was, and I when I wrote the song, I thought, well, there's a song. I never heard that song before. Maybe that's good, you know, but it was unfamiliar, and so with that you think, geez, I don't know is that good or bad? Is that different or just obscure, you know, like record producers have to consider when they're making music. And so when I taught the song to the guys, and everybody was kind of enjoying. They knew where I was coming from and some of these things. The other guys didn't care about Lewis boonwell or anything, but I did. And so anyway, they took the ride on it and as we were getting into it, we were kind of smiling to one another, like that verse that Carmen and the Devil verse, you know, that's pretty cool. And then all this thing and ah, and then it has like a conclusion that ties it together or something like a movie would all of these things. I've just been a movie bug, you know, so long. So anyway, I was making a little movie. And then we record the song and I have no idea except we got through the whole song, didn't make a mistake, felt pretty good. We went in and listened to it and I thought, holy moly, that's a thing. That's a thing right there. That's a sound that's I haven't heard that before, you know, And all of those things then add up for you inside.

You know, can you put your finger on what was so unique about that sound? Or is it just a kind of gestal thing.

You know, can you put your finger on what was so unique about that sound? Or is it just a kind of gestal thing.

That No, that's part of the great holy mystery that you really don't know. And if you think you do, then you're not ready for a good surprise, you know. Going in and I say, Garths, why don't you play piano on this? And Richard you play Oregon. And then when we get to this part in the song, why don't we do this and wait and then you come in, and then you come in, and then you come in together, and then you know, and then that folds over on top of itself. And all of these ideas I had no idea whether if they were good ideas. I thought that, you know, it's enough to make you want to do something. Then we got the song and I say, you know what, on this second last verse, Rick, why don't you take over the lead vocal on that? It just seemed like a good idea at the time, And once again, it wasn't until we went in that control room heard it over those speakers that Garth playing the piano on that really made sense. That Levon's drums with these big tune down toms that I had asked him if he'd be okay doing, and his vocal. I wasn't even sure this is the key I wrote it in. I don't know if it's a good key for you to sing it in. And he's like, yeah, no, I think it's okay. So all of these things are way up in the air and no idea really, and then when you hear it all come together and those pieces of the puzzle actually fit that's when you say, yeah, I knew all along.

That No, that's part of the great holy mystery that you really don't know. And if you think you do, then you're not ready for a good surprise, you know. Going in and I say, Garths, why don't you play piano on this? And Richard you play Oregon. And then when we get to this part in the song, why don't we do this and wait and then you come in, and then you come in, and then you come in together, and then you know, and then that folds over on top of itself. And all of these ideas I had no idea whether if they were good ideas. I thought that, you know, it's enough to make you want to do something. Then we got the song and I say, you know what, on this second last verse, Rick, why don't you take over the lead vocal on that? It just seemed like a good idea at the time, And once again, it wasn't until we went in that control room heard it over those speakers that Garth playing the piano on that really made sense. That Levon's drums with these big tune down toms that I had asked him if he'd be okay doing, and his vocal. I wasn't even sure this is the key I wrote it in. I don't know if it's a good key for you to sing it in. And he's like, yeah, no, I think it's okay. So all of these things are way up in the air and no idea really, and then when you hear it all come together and those pieces of the puzzle actually fit that's when you say, yeah, I knew all along.

We'll be back with more from Robbie Robertson after the break, We're back with more of a conversation with Robbie Robertson. The band eventually broke up with one final concert in nineteen seventy six. It was filmed by Martin Scorsese and released as The Last Waltz. It's become legendary and kicked off a decades long working relationship between Robbie and Scorsese, starting with Raging Bull. Robbie's done the music for most of Scorsese's films, including his most recent The Irishman. Not too long ago, Rick discovered a piece of music that he loved, and when he found out it was from a Scorsese movie, he had to ask Robbie about his involvement.

We'll be back with more from Robbie Robertson after the break, We're back with more of a conversation with Robbie Robertson. The band eventually broke up with one final concert in nineteen seventy six. It was filmed by Martin Scorsese and released as The Last Waltz. It's become legendary and kicked off a decades long working relationship between Robbie and Scorsese, starting with Raging Bull. Robbie's done the music for most of Scorsese's films, including his most recent The Irishman. Not too long ago, Rick discovered a piece of music that he loved, and when he found out it was from a Scorsese movie, he had to ask Robbie about his involvement.

So I heard this on the radio on some obscure streaming thing, had no idea what it was, and started researching trying to find out because I hadn't heard anything like this before. It was fascinating to me, And it was fascinating because I was familiar with the music, but not familiar enough to know what it was. But I feel like I'd heard the music before, and then I'm listening to the vocals and I'm thinking this, the singer is unbelievable. But it sounds like the singer's not listening to the music she's singing to even though it fits like it clearly works, but there's a strange, alien connection to it. And it just sounds like magic to me. That sounds like a brand new kind of music. So when I saw Robbie the other day, I asked him about it because I didn't know who made it, but I knew that it was in a soundtrack that he was involved in, and I asked him how it came to pack us and tell us how it came to pass.

So I heard this on the radio on some obscure streaming thing, had no idea what it was, and started researching trying to find out because I hadn't heard anything like this before. It was fascinating to me, And it was fascinating because I was familiar with the music, but not familiar enough to know what it was. But I feel like I'd heard the music before, and then I'm listening to the vocals and I'm thinking this, the singer is unbelievable. But it sounds like the singer's not listening to the music she's singing to even though it fits like it clearly works, but there's a strange, alien connection to it. And it just sounds like magic to me. That sounds like a brand new kind of music. So when I saw Robbie the other day, I asked him about it because I didn't know who made it, but I knew that it was in a soundtrack that he was involved in, and I asked him how it came to pack us and tell us how it came to pass.

I was working on the music from Martin Scorsese's movie Shutter Island, and and I was I was on a roll of a certain kind of music that him and I hadn't really experimented with much before, with Christoph Pendereeski, who is somebody that I've admired for years. And I told I've said to Marty over some days, sometime we've got to find a way to use some Pendereski and some John Cage and some you know, modern classical music in a movie. So when he decided he was going to direct this film, and he sent me the script and uh, and he said, yea, is it give you any ideas? And I said, this is it. This is the time, this is when we can. I think we can. He said, whoa really modern classical music and that he said, interesting because it's a it's a movie about insanity and and modern classical music is fearless and expressing some of that part of of of the mind. So anyway, we did a lot of things that in the movie and it was great fun and so we you know, all this stuff. And then at the end it was like he said, I said, I don't have anything figured out yet for the end of the movie and the end credits. So I had heard this piece of music by this composer, Max Richter. I think it's called Daylight something or but anyway, i'd heard this piece of music and there was almost the dodgy oh wish you know, there was something that really pulled on your heartstrings in it, and it fit in to the other world that we were experimenting. And there was a song that I knew about for years just that stayed with me. By Dinah Washington, who has always been a favorite of mine, her sound, her interpretation, I've you know, she's just one of my faves over the years. So I'm thinking about this song, this Bitter Earth that she sang, I'm thinking about this Max Richter classical piece and I and there was a connection there for me. So then I have them. I check it. They're both in the same key hmm. So I then took the Dinah Washington piece and I cut out each of her lines in the song like you would a sample and hip hop and it so I had her whole performance. Now I've got the Max Richter piece. So I take her line by line and lay her in the way I would have sung it on top of the Max Richter thing. I just put her there and I do this thing. And it's I don't even know if you're allowed to do that. It's like, can you can you do that with Dinah Washington and this great composer, Max Richter. I don't know, but I can't help but do this. So I lay this stuff in. I send it to Scarcese and say, I've tried something here, but I've got to warn you. I don't know that this is okay, but there's something about it and see what So he said, what do you mean not okay? And I said, I've taken a liberty on this thing, and I'm taking somebody's music and I'm putting it with somebody else's music. And this is not like a little sample in a hip hop too and where we're playing a little riff of James Brown here for a moment and then we're onto something else. This is the whole piece of these two artists. So anyway I it. He says, oh my god, this is beautiful fault and it's perfect at the end of this movie, and what did this thing? And to have this bitter earth come on after this thing? And so anyway, so then I say, well, I'm not going to call them and ask him if it's okay. Somebody has to call Max Richter and Dinah Washington's family or kids or whoever and see if it's okay that I've done this right. And they called and they give the coming back and they said they heard it and they love it. I thought, wow, that's a really good sign, you know, because a lot of people are like, you cannot mess with this, you know, you you know, you can't cross that line. That's that's a sin, right, and that they said they liked it. So anyway, it ended up at the end of this movie. And I was telling Rick the other day some months ago, I'm watching a French movie that I was curious about. I'm watching this movie and throughout the movie they used this piece of music, and so I'd say to Martin Scerceesi I said, wow, I was watching this movie and they were using this throughout the movie, not just once. They're using it, you know, a few times. And he says, they can't do that. I said, they did. It might be too late for us to object.