Matt Berninger

Published May 2, 2023, 9:00 AM

Today we have part two of our run of interviews with The National in celebration of their new album, First Two Pages of Frankenstein. Last week Broken Producer producer Leah Rose talked to guitarist and composer Aaron Dessner, and today Leah picks up the conversation with the band’s lead singer, Matt Berninger.

Matt, whose fear and anxiety are often on full display in his songwriting, talks about overcoming a debilitating bout of depression in the period before he started writing songs for the new album. He also explains how the combination of weed and iced tea help him spark creativity. And why he hopes his songwriting impresses Phoebe Bridgers and Taylor Swift.

You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite songs from Matt Berninger and The National HERE.

Pushkin.

Today we have part two of our run of interviews with The National and celebration of their new album First two pages of Frankenstein. Last week, Broken Record producer Leah Rose talked to guitarist and composer Aaron Destner about The National's interpersonal dynamics. Today, Leah picks up that conversation with the band's lead singer, Matt Buringer. Matt, whose fear and anxieties are often on full display in this songwriting, talks about overcoming a debilitating bout of depression in the period before he started writing songs for the new album. He also explains how the combination of weed and iced tea helped him spark his creativity and why he hopes his songwriting impresses Phoebe Bridgers and Taylor Swift. Is Broken Record liner notes for the Digital Age.

I'm justin Ritchman.

Here's Lea Rose with Matt Runninger.

I saw a video that you recorded. I guess it was like two years ago for Amiba Records, and you were picking through your favorite records and I started to sort of like listen to some of the to the records that you were showing, and it really helped me understand you as an artist and as a singer, and so I wanted to hear you just talk about some of these artists and see how specifically maybe their style helped you develop your own style.

Yeah. Cool, I don't remember what I picked.

So yeah, I figure then maybe the list has changed at this point.

Yeah, but maybe I'll be I'll disown this whole list, but let's see.

Yeah, I know, right, But the first artist I wanted to ask you about was Tom Waits.

Uh huh.

When did you start listening to Tom Waits?

I think I freshman year at college, so that was nineteen ninety. I went to a couple of years at Miami University of Cincinnati, so I was like, it was my first year of college, so this is the first time I lived alone. And that's when I remember hearing Ah God. I think it was it was a compilation I heard him on first, and I think it was the song Big Black Mariah, and I don't remember what compilation it was on, and I fell in love of that song, and I went out and tried and wanted to buy check out some records, but I remember all I could find was this one record, his early Year's record and like a guy called Tom Waits and said early years, and then there's this skinny white guy on the cover. I was like, this isn't This isn't the person from who's singing Big Black Mariah on the thing. I had heard this has got to be somebody else, but I bought it anyway, and it was so I think I first got into his early years and then connected all the dots to like Bone Machine, and that was right right before Bone Machine came out. I feel like that's when I can't remember exactly what all, but it was the fun journey like learning hearing like you know, semi you know, contemporary or or whatever nineties Tom Waits and then going back and then then starting with his really early like those real acoustic demos and piano demos and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that was a big long time all through college, it feels like. And then and then I would come back to him and in different records I would I would go into deep Dives and at different times and rain Dogs.

Yeah that was the one that you picked out for the semi bit.

Yeah, yeah, I mean I also also remember another Okay, this is how stupid I was with music. And I didn't didn't really do very deep at dives. I thought that was him on the cover forever, right and and and I mean and I'd seen pictures of him and see, but for some reason, my brain made them the same, the same face, the same person. But yeah, I haven't tattoo. That says Martha from his song Martha and which I remember listening to and crying too after breaking up with my first college girlfriend or being broke up broken up with it was mutual. I don't remember.

That.

I was driving back to Cincinnati from Oxford, Ohio and realizing that was finally over, and then I transferred to a new school anyway. Yeah, so Tom Waits was like right there and some of the most intense you know, early early relationships, but then always like, you know, my Karna and I like just went through big deep Tom Waits dives you know, over different times. And yeah, just just this combination of goofiness and heartbreak and darkness, you know, and and spookiness. There's just something all about you know. And he Nick Cave's another one who's who's like in that sort of world, like the just the the the alchemy of sincerity and silliness you know, that's so magical.

Sometimes do you hear them in your own performance when when you sing like.

Well, I'm sure, I mean I don't. I'm sure other people do more than I do. You know, you know I can't. I don't know what I look like in the mirror, you know everybody else. That's one of those things. But uh, but the other thing about what Tom Waits is I was also really always really taken with and kind of inspired by his relationship with his wife Kathleen Brennan and how they write together and there you know, one of one of my favorite songs of his all time is called Johnsburg, Illinois, and it's just a little portrait of a song about where she's from, you know, and just about about meeting her. And it's like the most delicate, little, sweet, little love song. And yeah, so I think that was something I always found so romantic and so cool that here's this guy who can write all these songs about heartbreak and all this stuff, but then also write them with his the one he loves, you know, I think it's really cool.

Yeah, that's beautiful. If you don't know a band, you don't know a singer, you don't know a song. How much patience do you have to sort of discover something new.

I'd like to think I have some, like like some patients, But that's a good question, because I do struggle a lot. I think with like even even like the playlist set that I'm on, I mean, I just like I have a harder time. I mean, I don't know. I've was always a bit of a snob. And that's the thing about music. It's like sports, so it's like, like you hate most stuff, you know, you want to talk about how much it's like with your friends, like, oh, you know, and you define yourself by everything you hate, you know, or you don't get. And I was definitely that contrary, and you know I was. I mean, the Smith's were a band I love so much, just because none of my other friends had ever heard of them, and the boy with the thorn on his side was was definitely me, you know. And so still I have a little bit of that where I'm like, like, what, I don't get it, you know, But I realize I'm totally wrong most of the time, and then and I'll get used to it and I'll learn things about it. So it's hard to say I might have been more of a snob when I was, you know, in college than I am now. And and now I I actually really have a fun time studying like stuff I don't listen to at all. But I'm like, like I did a recent sort of thing of just like what's you know, all these different artists their number one song and trying to figure out what the tempo of their number one song was. You know, In the first three artists I looked at, it was like one eighteen, right, So.

Yeah, I've heard like one twenty is kind of like is that for a pop record? That might be kind of like the.

I know, Well, I'm like I'm like I'm looking it up and then and I'm like trying to like, well, what is it? What are people like, you know, what is this the pop world? Like? What are these because every wee talked about the formula, but then I did. I did, But then it was it was a few exercise because then I listened to a batch of other and suddenly I found a bunch that were, you know, like around one fifty, and then I've found a bunch that are like like great songs that are around ninety, you know. And then but then it's also like it's all it's all just in the groove and how you subdivide it, and it's like something that's like ninety is also one eighty, you know, and depending on how you deliver it. And then so I kind of it didn't lead me anywhere, but it was really it was kind of fun to dig into it. There's also I read about all this stuff and how it's slowing down pop music. Is the average BPM used to be like in the one forties and now it's down to somebody's saying it's like down to like one one o eight is an average.

Oh it's funny. I mean I could definitely see that with hip hop because hip hop has like gotten way like more like slow in syrupy, but but one one forty is super fast.

Yeah, But the truth is it doesn't actually it doesn't matter at all because you could take any BPM and subdivide it in a way and put a swing to it, and how you like, all of a sudden, its momentum goes from sluggish to like it just it's like mixing paint. You know. It's like it's like which is fun to you know, It's it's like there's not a formula. There's not like a there's not a formula for a good painting. You know. It's just so.

And also it seems like if you started with thinking about a formula, you're not going to end up in a good place. No, But it's because you're thinking more about like what the audience is going to like, rather than what you're going to put forth.

Right, I'd love to do Like lately, just going in with a friend and and and and just been like, well, just like pick any song and just kind of like, you know, we picked by your Side by Shah Day not long ago, and like and just like what is it? What a good song? Like why like why is it so much better than all other songs at that same tempo with the same chorus it gets.

It's her voice delivers, Yeah.

It's it's it's impossible to totally obviously it's her, you know, but it's like, yeah, but why is that song of her stand out so much from even her catalog? You know, it's like, well, there's so many people that have one song that just like is ten times bigger than the rest of their entire catalog, or you know, what is it? What is it about that one that thing. It is fun. It's just fun to like kind of try to see if you can decipher magic. You know, if you can, if you can figure it out. But you can't. You just you can't. I mean, but but it is everything you've you're listening to every song we that is like was them trying something, probably listening to a bunch of other things and trying to put put together common to the air combination, and occasionally the alchemy turns. It's it's black magic. It totally as you still know, you know.

Yeah, I was thinking about it from the perspective of a listener, like if I sit down and listen to your new album, you sort of take for granted that, like somebody actually created this from silence. Sometimes you just assume like things always existed, like uh huh, there was a time when hey, Jude didn't exist, Like somebody wrote that and made that music.

My daughter and I were like driving around, we just drive around for hours just listening to songs, and she's she's in that she's in that phase where she's just like really like songs are magic to her. Now. I say, it's like it's it's blooming. And she's she's fourteen, and and so we were listening to the Wise Blood album a lot. We were listening to and she's learning that on guitar. But then we were like started listening to some Beatles and stuff and just like and hey, Jude, it's just like, oh my god, it starts out one way and then at the end he's just like he's just a nut job at the end, just like riffing and just like, dude, Yeah, it's almost ridiculous at the end. And yeah, but the idea that like it started from nothing and then it's there, you know, and.

Like there was a time when that song did not exist.

It's fun, it's funny, it's crazy totally.

So I'm just curious with the national like with making this new album, Like it sounds like before or you started recording it, you know, maybe you were going through some sort of like writer's block. That's that's the story that I'm hearing. Yeah, and that was somehow unlocked by you reading Frankenstein. Is that a true story?

It is true. I was in a really long writer's block, like I'd never been. It was it was a I couldn't write. I mean, I don't know to I mean, it was it was caused by whatever, like self loathing and depression and all that stuff I put up. Yeah, I went into a phase where I just couldn't. I just like I didn't want to write. I was sick of writing about myself all that stuff. And I won't say there was any one thing that unlocked it. It was mostly just kind of reconnecting with the band and and just kind of pushing through it in time and then and it started slowly coming back. But when it when it started coming back, one song that I was just like, the music came. It was new music that had just been sent and I was kind of like, okay, Like I I just wanted to fresh, fresh words in my head. So sometimes I'll just go and grab literally anything a magazine and anything and just like look at word, just skim it and just like until a word or something, just like whatever. It's just it's trying to just like shake them, shake the trees and see if an animal falls out right. And so, yeah, Franken Sang was the book I just randomly picked. And the words like tranquilize an ocean and this whole stuff about like the poles. It all starts out in the Arctic and so I started kind of just writing some imagery about that, but it was all I think it was imagery that I was I was kind of using that imagery to write about my brain and write about my feeling lost and frozen and disconnected. And so the song is your mind is not your friend. But that phrase was just something that my wife Grin had been had been saying, he had been echoing to me over the past year when I was in this phase, and I just like thought, like you know, I was, I was like, I don't know if I can ever do it. I don't like, I don't know if I can write anymore. I don't know if I can go on stage anymore. I don't know if I can tour anymore. I don't know if I can do any of it anymore. I was just I was feeling paralyzed by not just the writer's block, but all of it, you know, just like everything was like I didn't there was a phase I didn't want to write. I didn't want to I didn't want to listen to anything, you know, I couldn't listen to anything. But when I started to break through a little bit and those guys started sending me a bunch of news like like, oh, he's working again. The rest of the band started like hurry up, like like send him new stuff. He's he's plugged in again. And and and the music for your mind is that your Friend was one of those kind of new ones that came and and I wrote it really fast. Yeah, and it was triggered. But I can't remember which song of the of the record I know. I know Once upon a pool Side was one of them that that was like, okay, finally a song came. And I think it was when I just started writing directly about the things I was, you know, my fears and everything.

Yeah. I'm curious what your wife says when you're in that place when she's trying to encourage you and you tell her like I can't go back on stage, I can't write. This might be the end of it.

She was always like, that's totally fine. That is totally fine, you know, And I was like, thank god, you know, And I was like, it's not totally fine. You don't understand how not fine that is. It won't be good for me, it won't be good for anybody. It's bad. It's that And she's like nobody wants and the band was like that too. Everybody's like there's I was. I wasn't getting any pressure from anybody except for myself, So.

You didn't feel like let off the hook, like, okay, cool now I can just like.

No, I was let off the hook. I've always been let off the like like nobody none of us will ever Nobody in the band or I think none of our partners or whatever, nobody's got anybody on a hook. We all we all do this because we want to do it. And yeah, when I when I couldn't do it, it wasn't that I didn't want I wanted to be able to do it. I wanted to want to do it. I really wanted to want to do it, but I I couldn't and I couldn't. The idea of like getting on stage made me you know almost you know, sick, you know, like like just just so much anxiety that, yeah, walk in even go to the airport, you know, into the face. I just like it wasn't like flying. I was just like did like I did not want to go. I did not want to go out into the world or be you know, I wanted to stay unplugged or but I couldn't. You know so so. And then I was terrified that ship it's been it's been unplugged for so long, and I and it's the machine has stopped for so long. I don't know if it's ever going to start again. And then it slowly started.

How did you feel when it started? Were you exhilarated? Did it feel like those feelings were kind of melting away?

It was slow. It was a slow It wasn't. There were there were a couple of times. I mean, I think once upon a pool side the guy in the band were like nice one, you know, like like you're like like that when you know, like nobody wanted nobody wanted to make too much of a deal about it. When I started to write again, and and and and it did, it didn't. It wasn't like als in one day, I woke up and I was like, you know, on fire. It was. It was, yeah, it was very much, you know, starting the fire back from rubbing sticks together. But eventually eventually it warmed up, and you know, yeah, and then and then and then then I was writing a lot, and then we were on tour. I was Eucalyptus was written really fast, and new Order T shirt was written really fast, and the outcott was written really fast, and half the songs were written quickly, and then the other half you know, started and then froze and then you know, morphed into something later. Yeah.

Okay, so you didn't go back into the sunken place at a certain point where you out like once the song started to come.

No, but I got but but I but I got above it enough to sort of like to be able to breathe. So that like so that when I sink back down, know that I you know, so, so I'm not in the lowest part of it, you know, but I'm but I'm definitely not. I'm definitely aware that it's it's it's right there, you know, the water is the water is always right about here, and sometimes you'll find yourself and you're like it and I just know, I know where I am. So I'm just more aware of the of the when it gets too deep to stand, you know, and just to back away a little bit. You know, whatever that is. It's just your brain, it's just your totally you know.

Does having the songs and having actual tangible creative output, does that sort of put any gas in your tank?

Yes? Yeah, yeah, I mean the the thing that like when I when I feel like, oh there's I'm onto something. This could be this could be great, this could be a beautiful song. And you always like that that that first theo's first feelings where you just get get a even just a melody. Or I mean, there's those guys send me lots and lots of stuff. So I'm listening to a lot of music. They're like, if I could only do something, this could be incredible. But a lot of times I like, I just can't. And or I every time I do something, it's what's beautiful about it goes away. I can ruin it, you know. It's like it's it's easy to ruin a beautiful white canvas, you know. Or and their canvases aren't clean. They come already with so much information, and but sometimes I just cannot dance with one of their sketches or one of the bits of music. And and this was like I could hear when there was when I couldn't write. I was like I could hear that the music that I was trying to write to was was good. It wasn't. It wasn't that it was me I was I was I was not able to sort of find my way into it, and that was what was the worst part about it. But yeah, when a couple of little bits and some songs in a little phrase or melody like started like, Okay, well that's good enough, that's a good that's a good lily pad. That's one little that's one little lego that I'm gonna I'm gonna put over here because I think I'm gonna use that little lego. You know. The rest is just a mess, and I don't want to even look at that pile. But at least that one little lego, you know. I and then you find another lego, you know, and then and so yeah, the little tiny bits, little like it's a little little little lyric or a little melody or in a little spot in a song somewhere, we'll be like, ah, if I can build a song out from around that one little little spark, then it might end up being the best song I've ever written. That's the thing about songs. They're like these three little three and a half minute things that you could start and you have the sense of like this might be one like this could be a beautiful song, this could be imagined, this could be you know, sabotage. This could be you know, hey, yah whatever, you know, you know what I'm saying, Like when you start on something like it could be one of the greatest songs I've ever written, and it could be, Hey, Jude, and almost never is, you know, but it could be. And that feeling is when like when a kid first learns like the G chord for the first time and they're like, holy shit, I can be Nirvana. You know I did once you get that first thread. So that's first for me, Like the songs like just a little like a little bit where like, ah, that might end up being incredible if I can, if I can.

So the hope, yeah, just the hope part of it.

The belief that like this could be a beautiful thing that makes you, makes you and lots of people feel great, and it could be on the radio and you know it could be. It's like just stuff that those simple things you're like, those are such a enough serotonin or and doorphins get get sent off into your bloodstream that I just one of the little little things a day can keep your head above water and then keep you going. But that's why, you know, that's why like when months and weeks would go by it, and I didn't have one of those little things. I was getting none of them, you know nothing.

We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back with more from Leo Rose and Matt Burninger. We're back with Matt Burninger and Leo Rose.

Do you have any like wellness practices or anything that you you do that is supposed to be good for you, you know, whether it's like exercise or meditation or walks or.

Yeah, I used to ride on my bike and walk, biking and walking just you know those things. Yeah, just just just I mean, I think it's it's very well known that just just moving your body is like just getting your your body moving, because when your body is moving, it's not like it's not trying to like, you know, lose weight or get cardio, just move your body simply that those gears are at least doing that thing, you know, right. And so when those gears are doing that thing, your legs and your legs are moving and you're walking and you're breathing it out, the part of your brain that gets anxiety and gets chess can sometimes just like just slow down and let that thing and then and then suddenly the rest of the gears start. It just it greases the wheels, you know, It's like totally And when you don't do those things, I think the worry part, anxiety, all the other things that all the other wheels in your brain that you need are important for survival, all this kind of stuff, but they just start spinning and nothing everything else freezes and then you just like you're exhausted, but you can't sleep because your anxiety wheels are going. So yeah, I do do other things, but I mean, honestly, like when you're in a when I was in that dark face, I didn't want to. I mean, I go, I'd ride my two blocks and I turn around and come home. I was like, yeah, I couldn't ride my bike, I couldn't watch TV, couldn't listen to any music. So it was a sunken sunken place for sure, sunking place.

Has listening to music with your daughter influenced your writing at all or the way that you're approaching music, because it's almost like you get to hear music for the first time. You know through her ears.

Only that if you try to cater to anybody, you're gonna fail. Like her bullshit detector for like just sounds like they're just sounds like they're trying so hard to make make me think they're cool, or like like lines that are like seem like you know, seem like great all caps, you know, great lyrics. She's she's like, ah, it's a little too much. You know. It's like, oh gosh, you know, like kids are way more sophisticated than you think. And and you can't like, well, I mean it's hard to say. It's like I mean, I mean I don't want to like there's guilty pleasures, but still her favorite favorite stuff is more complex or just like the stuff that's like blurry and weird, and and it's like why kids love certain scary children's books that are just like you can't quite figure them out, Like why why do those resonate so much? It's always the stuff that's a little creepy, a little spooky, not setting it up, you know, with an obvious, you know, satisfying thing, like like something is a little off and a little a little hard to figure out, like what does that mean? That's the stuff that sticks with her. So yeah, it's really that's so it's really inspiring. I was like, oh yeah, I can't. You can never never phone it in and try to like market to you know, to a demographic or anything. You just have to. You really have to be honest with yourself. Are you are you interesting? Are being interesting to yourself? Because even twelve year olds can tell when you're when you're pandering.

Do you play her music you're working on?

Yeah? Yeah?

Does she? What does she tend to tell you?

She's always excited. She's always I mean, she's I mean, she does really like it. And but it's like I'll play it just because because occasionally she'll like like not like something, and and she's she's definitely not being nice, you know, because she sees, well Krin and I talk about it all the time, so she sees how not precious I am I and she sees how both of us, you know, tear about TV shows and tear apart movies and like, you know, like we're cruel with this stuff just because that's what you do.

It's it's sounds like my house.

Yeah, I mean, that's it's like because when something's great, like it has to be celebrated, and like in the mystery of why something is great, you just have to you have to dig into it.

It really is easier to talk shit about something describe how incredible something is.

Yeah, I mean mostly when I'm writing, I'm just trying to avoid being terrible. I mean, like you try to write something and like like it's terrible. It's like you try to sing a melody, It's like it's terrible. Certainly, wait that's wait, maybe something there and then you find And so it's always for me, it's always I step into the ugly, you know, I just step out and it's always ugly, or it's always it's very rarely a lyric or even a melody ever ever quite. It takes a lot of stepping in this way, that way, this way a little bit and adjustment and listening over and over and throwing it away. Like when I I write, you know, I'll put in a sketch from those guys and it's usually pretty simple. Sometimes it's not even it's just one part, you know, it's like you know, three, three or four chords like repeated, and I will I'll just start trying to sing to it, and I'll just track after track, layer after layer. I just like I have fifteen fifteen things that I'm just like just free associating and singing gobbledygook over and then I'll go back and listen and it's like most of it's all terrible, and it's just like, oh, that one little spot is.

Like kind of like the melody is terrible, or the words are terrible, the lyrics are terrible.

It's usually melody, you know. I'm always like looking for melody, not worrying about words. And then later I will try to put words to it, and I kind of write separately. I'll write little bits and pieces and then I'll see it fits in a song, and then I'll listen to to like what it sounds like I'm saying, and like go in that mode and just try to like write around what it kind of sounds like I'm saying and craft that it's it. It's like I kend go about it like all different ways. But almost never am I like, oh, like like step right in and like oh that's feeling good, and like a song comes out. It's usually like it's just always trying to avoid stuff that sounds cliche or you're trying too hard, or your sound too bored, or you you sound too energetic? Are you like it's just a million a million little dials, you know.

But that seems good though, because at least it's the opposite of being paralyzed, Like that's very active. Yeah, and just trying and trying and trying, and kind of like reiterating, do you have any sort of rituals or any things that you put yourself through to get into a space where it's easier to write. We had Rivers Cuomo on the show, and he talked about how he tried sort of like a deprivation technique where he would lock himself in a bathroom for like two days and like not eat, just to try and like bring about creativity that way. And that's obviously extreme.

Mh.

But is there anything that you do, like even if it's like drink a little something, smoke something and then you're in this space?

Yeah? Yeah, I mean I don't have I don't try to force it. I mean, when I was in that long phase where nothing has happened, I realized that, like, oh God, if you can't just sit around, it's it's weird. It's like I couldn't, I couldn't turn it on. And I kept trying, and I guess, I guess if I hadn't keep trying to turn it on. It may have never come on, and so you do have to sort of I did have to force it. I guess. Eventually I had to go to the studio those guys. I had to go in the booth and the microphone was on hand to try put something on down on record, you know, and that's it wasn't until then until the really started happening. So I did. Like just just getting in there and doing it is really the only thing sometimes when it's not happening at all that you can do. I don't know, just get in front of a microphone. But again, I will say, I kind of just have to get into a comfortable place with it, and I will most of the time I'm writing, like on a couch or in bed, headphones on and like just listen to stuff and just trying to zone out. Yeah, and sometimes I'll smoke some weed sometimes I'll you know, I don't. Yeah, I'll drink a little bit of wine sometimes like that. But I kind of I like it in the mode where you know, iced tea and weed works really great, you know, and kind of in the middle of the day, in the middle of the day and those weird moments those kind of.

Like like light up or downer.

Yeah, just a light I try to like just get I don't write well when I'm like loaded. I mean sometimes sometimes have.

You ever recorded or written or recorded something when you're just like loaded, and you probably think it sounds really really good or maybe it's really deep, Like what is that experience?

Like I like that. That's a good question. I'm trying to write. It's hard to I mean, yeah, I used I used to. My favorite thing in the world to do was get a six pack and a pack of cigarettes and listen to records. And I have a notebook and just like just filling notebooks and just writing and writing right and listening and just and and and it was just like it was great. This is what can I say? It just it was it was so much fun. But I but I don't do it like that anymore, just because it's like I feel like shit if I drink, drink or smoke that much stuff, you know, and so so yeah, it's a it's a healthier thing. And and I do it's it's good to ride to ride bike and I'll smoke some weed and ride my bike and and and and if I get in a mode, I'll be I'll be pulling over every two minutes to like write, just to text myself a little thing, a little lyric or a little line. So that's that's kind of how it works. Like I like to get into kind of meditative, rhythmic zone. I won't sit there and try to like craft architect a song. I'll like, I'll get a little bit I like and then I'll sing it over and over and over again, and you know, on a loop and just just kind of just just practicing the rhythm of a of a of a you know, practicing a swing. You just kind of keep doing it until you get the kind of rhythm right and the tone of it right. And I'll do that and that's probably because I'm you're stoned and you're just kinda in that mode just like you can you can marvel at the same lego like for a while totally, but it's good. But you manage to kind of, you know, get that stone just right. So when you when you're gonna put it into the end of the you know, another brick in the wall, whatever, it's like you gotta get that break just right. And other times it's then you're like, okay, now I've filled this. This sketch is only three minutes long, but I've got seventeen different melody options.

Right, It's like, there's wow, are they all original melodies?

Like?

How do you know they don't come from I would hope they don't, But it seems like it was just sort of a natural thing to happen.

I don't know, you just think it's a weird thing. There'd be like you can start almost anywhere. It's like, I mean, I used to think like, okay, here's a guitar, here's some guitar chords and a beat in a rhythm. It's like, okay, well, there's only so many things I can do. I learned a longer. You guys like, oh shit, you can. You may feel like you're cornered in with something. It's like you can start anywhere on it. You can, like you it's it's almost infinite. How many I mean you can you can start on a note that rubs against whatever notes are there and and play with that that way. It's like you can you can put any kind of color onto any kind of canvas and try. You know, sometimes it's just it's just not a it's just doesn't feel right, you know, it just doesn't feel the personality of it, like I always though about the personality of songs. It's just like the personality doesn't feel like me, you know, or I didn't feel like I wasn't in that zone. I can't, I can't quite get even though it's I like that personality, but it's just like, that's not what I need now, that's not the that's not the character I need to to talk to right now, you know. It's that's that's that's what the songs are like. They're like they're like a partner that that you have to sort of like dance with, and and some you know, some people you like are in rhythm with, and some like you know, some sketches that Aaron Aaron sent me ended up, you know, on other people's records in our huge hits.

You know. It's like, oh, like, what's an example of that.

I don't. I don't know. There's there's a bunch of I think Cardigan and Willow and some other ones. I had been taken a whack at some ideas or at one point those were in a batch that I was like, I couldn't I couldn't do anything too and I still it's like I've listened to those I studied those songs. It's like, oh, look what she did with.

Those songs, right, I was gonna say, yeah, like that must be interesting.

Yeah, because I've I've got things like like that are just really different melody and and and and written like places that like totally different songs. And it's like that's one of those things that's really really uh, really kind of fun about about songs and what we were talking about before. Like for example, when we when I go in and say like, okay, here, here's you know, by your side by Shahda, I mean you could learn it. First you learn it and then you get Okay, that's that song. But like to kind of like try do a song that's kind of in the zone, it's like really really hard to match a zone of a thing, you know. It's it's kind of I mean, you can kind of match it, but it's.

Like, do you mean if you were to try and cover it or make something in a similar vein you can.

Cover, but like even covering songs does not mean that song is gonna have any of that magic that that Ridge that one did. It's weird. So I'm saying it's like, I'm never nervous about somebody thing. Oh you stole that from like like maybe yeah, maybe, Like like that, every little every single I mean everything that you hear is has taken and re recrafted. And it's not even like they try hard. It's like it's kind of impossible to like you change one little thing, everything starts to change, you know. So I always listening to the Miley Cyrus Flowers and she even talks about what was that. It was like it's her biggest song, I think flowers now, and it's like she was sort of ripping off the Bruno Mars song or something up to be No be Your Man, I want to be Your Man or something like that. His his biggest song. He's like a billion and a half, you know, listens and like, oh yeah, there's there's that little section right there. I mean the lyrics are I mean, flowers rhyming, flowers with hours and and hand with sand are all there. You know. She could definitely just like took all that and reaf you know, and she talks about it. That's the best way to approach it, because like it's the other ones, they're both giant, massive songs. And you're like, oh yeah, there's that little part where like, oh yeah, you can hear that note on that thing, there's there's that little fragment that definitely was taken from that. But I don't like, I don't like that's that's how everything's made, you know, kind of like I I think that's uh, And so I think I do that probably more than I realize. But it's usually I often sing other people's lyrics to music just because it's impossible. Often songs tempo and time signature or chords or whatever one lyrics will you just it forces you to change everything around, you know, just uh, and you change melody and everything changes, and then and then you find your own you know, and then those those words that you started with somebody else just just just just disappear, and your own things just sort of grow in the cracks of that you made around it. I don't know, it's the process is usually incredibly fun, really, and that's why I like in that phase where I just like I was heartbroken over the loss of my love for it. That was such a bummer, like to like to not for even music, not not to give me that thrill or that serotonin or that endorphin or that little stuff.

We'll be back after another quick break with more from Leo Rose and Matt Berninger. We're back with the rest of Lea Rose's conversation with The Nationals. Matt Berninger, Is.

It true that there's sort of like an unwritten rule in the band that people don't directly ask you about the meaning behind your lyrics?

I didn't know. They don't. They almost never do. I don't think they ever do.

Does anyone ask you if you're.

Like fans do and and journalists do, and there's no rule, but no, the guys usually don't. Yeah, they don't. I don't think I don't. I'd have to think about when any of those guys ever asked me.

Do you care what they think about your lyrics?

Yeah? Yeah, totally, of course. Yeah. I'm always trying to impress them. Yeah.

Is there some when you're writing? Is there somebody in your mind who you're trying to impress or you're writing for?

Yeah, those guys in Krin, you know, and and yeah, and my daughter and and and the appears you know. Yeah, I want to I want to impress all the walkman. I want to impress Phoebe Bridges. I want to you know, I went Taylor Swift to to to be as impressed by me as I am by her, you know. And so yeah, I want to be loved. I want to be I want to be adored and I want to be But that's the that's the what's such a funny thing. It's like, if you try to write with that purpose, you're gonna sound desperate, you know, so to be truly adored and to be for other, your other your favorite artists, to get to actually really like what you're doing, you have to do weird ship that is a little maybe uncomfortable and scary and maybe isn't isn't gonna work, you know. That's that's what's gonna impress the walkman, that's what's gonna impress you know, my wife, and and and and and and then that's what the band wants, Like the band doesn't want our band doesn't want necessarily want a hit if it's not real, if it doesn't feel like kind of real to us.

I was wondering with Karin, like when she hears things that you've written, if you're writing about an old love or loving someone missing somebody, is she ever, like, who are you talking about?

No, she's When we first started dating, I was in the middle of writing all these songs, you know, a bunch of songs. You know that that she's kind of like right away was kind of like so into all of it, like the writing of songs. So it's always been that way. And and I've also been mostly writing about her, you know. It's like or the band or yeah. But then there's the like sometimes songs are not autobiographical, obviously, but they're but there's sort of exercises and looking into a window or looking or looking over over the edge of something, and like Eucalyptus or whatever is obviously a song about about splitting up things. And and and I think it's kind of a funny song about like, you know, like all the things like how do you how do you split up your water subscription? You know, But so you're writing writing about breaking up is a way of sort of like of confronting your fears. You know. It's like and like once upon a pool Side, and like a lot of those record is is really like the fear of maybe that the band being over. And it's very romantic. Generally, there'll be bits and pieces of the songs that like in this usually well much later, like after the record's out and after finally it's all finished, where like yeah, wasn't that again? And you know what, you know, like it'll be way later, but in the middle of the creative process, if it's good, if it's like, that's great, like that's all we that's all we ever talked about. Sometimes sometimes much later, once the art is finished, we'll be like, maybe we should talk about that a little bit, you know.

Yeah, I was wondering, Yah, is there ever an instance where you write a lyric and it's the beginning of something that might almost be subconscious, but then it ultimately comes true later.

I mean, what you made me think of is maybe not what you're asking, but I I do, I do, And I did feel that maybe all of this writing, of all these making these big you know, these beautiful things out of uncomfortable feelings that I've been doing for twenty years and you know, we're on the ninth record or whatever, and plus all the other like so, I mean, so like writing hundreds of songs about some of this stuff, I was like, am I manifesting this character? Am I becoming? Am I am I did I create this, this, this sad sack, you know, because I write about it so much?

Do you think you did? Like where did you land with that question?

It's in between, It's like yes, But I also write all these songs because like like I am that way and have that way and and and that's how I That's how I that's how I survive. That's how I feel better about life is because I make a little something some kind of semi enjoyable and kind of fun and beautiful and moving out of this ugly feeling. You know. That's what all great love songs. You know, It's like it's like it's like sad, ugly, uncomfortable feelings. What's a melody? You know? And and and and that's that All the best love songs are kind of crushing and and so I think I do think I'm a much healthier person. Haven't written all this stuff than have not? You know? I do know that like other people like listening to like we talked about, like the artists that we've been talking about, including example, go back to Tom Waits, I know that Tom Waits made me mentally healthier. You know, it made me made me a happier person made me a made me like myself more, and so did Nick Cave. So all my favorite artists, you know, make me like myself a little bit more because they're great about about writing about what they hate about themselves, and I can identify with that. And I was like, if that person hates themselves, like you can say that that terrible thing about themselves and make it so beautiful. I'm like, oh, maybe maybe I can make something out of all the things I hate about myself. So yeah, But then at a certain time, you know the point of like all these years, especially getting on stage and performing it and doing it, you know, and then and then and then and then having like a fan base, which is like incredible, Like I have fans, but fans of songs I wrote, you know, it's like it's it's sometimes you they forget how like most people don't have fans of songs that they wrote. You know, it's like an incredible thing. Strangers that you've never met, like these songs that you wrote, these things you wrote about your own feelings. You know, like that's so lucky, you know. And then when people like say how much they get out of it, and you see people having these moments and you see people write to you and tell you like this, and I get a lot of letters and people say like this, this stuff actually helped me through a really rough time. And I'm like, it helped me through a rough time. And then I think of all the other artists that helped me, that their records help me, and I'm like like, oh god, yeah, this is all really good, Like this is a really good thing to do.

Yeah, you're like in service to other people.

A little bit, but mostly myself, you know, mostly like I'm doing it for my own mental health mostly, but it is working for other people too. It's helping other people do for sure, and that's really good. But then he's like, the night after night after night after night after night after night, I'm touring and being auto, and then you get weird. You just get weird.

It can How does it get weird? I heard you talk about that being on tour can get weird, and I'm extremely curious about what you mean about that.

Honestly, I think it's just mostly exhaustion. But then I think it's I think it's the turning on and then turning off. It's like to turn for me to get into show mode to turn on to do that for like a two hour you know, give or take performance. Like it's not it doesn't come naturally. It's not like I'm like I can't wait to get out there. It's like it's bracing. It's I have to. I have to. It's on my mind all day. I have to. It's on my mind. It's like it's it's like every day is sort of like you're doing like a mini wedding. You gotta get ready, like to you know, just trying to like can I get ready for it? It's and you have to entertain. You have to. You don't know. You might wake up in a great mood, but then like something like you might by by seven thirty, you know, half an hour before you're supposed to go on stage something. You just might just be in the most miserable place for whatever reason.

Just and you're the front man. So it's like all eyes are on you. You can't kind of just like play the back and play bass.

Yep.

Yeah, you know, it's like you and you give it. You're all you go super hard.

Yeah, And I won't complain it. It's cool. I mean, like I I it's a funny thing. I'm often miserable in the spotlight, but I'm usually like like like no, no, no, over here. You know. It's like it's like, no, don't look at me, look at.

Me, Like this is my best side.

Yeah, I'm definitely don't look at me, look at me type of person with a yeah, and I don't have to get in a zone. And sometimes you drink too much and something like I like, we don't have any really terrible, terrible habits and but like, oh yeah, I've how many times have been like I know now I know what cocaine's for. You know. It's like, yeah, this is why people do cocaine because they got to go do that.

Yeah, you can slip the switch.

Yeah you can flip, but but I don't. I don't do that, but I do. You know. I have a few glasses of wine. Sometimes I won't, but those shows are always like really honestly that the shows I won't have any I was like, oh, those are if I don't drink. If I don't drink anything, then I'm in too inside my head. I think I think one or two glasses of wine is probably the best. Yeah.

When I was talking to Aaron, he said something at some point about He's like, yeah, sometimes I think like I can't believe I'm forty six and I'm still in a band. That's so embarrassing. Yeah, do you have any similar feelings like that?

Yeah, no, no, we always do. I mean, like we always listen we play songs or like, does this sound like we're all trying to like wear skinny jeans. You know, it's like and even though many of us still we're skinny jeans, but there is that. The whole pandering thing is is like we just can't do it, you know, like we cannot like I can't, I can only write a certain way, and I mean the answer questions like yeah, we're often like feeling like we don't want to seem like we're faking it, or if being on stage singing a song that you don't really kind of believe or don't or you know, doesn't feel good. So I think if we if we started making songs that we felt we're like, oh, well, we're kind of just putting out records to service a you know, to service something a fan base or whatever, like it definitely wouldn't be be enough. So obviously we're always asking us like are these songs worth putting out, is it? I know that like we it's time for another record or it's time for another tour, you know, according to the healthy economy of a of a functioning band and all that kind of stuff, you know, But that has never been the thing that's ever ever gotten us anywhere in terms of motivating us to make songs. And it's just the songs. It's like if a song we like it and we're like, I like that's a that's a good song. That's a beautiful song. That's why we're still a band.

Like that's enough too.

Yeah, I won't be able to be the kind of performer like Micjagger is, you know, because well, I mean and I think he's genuine, you know, through and through he is the you know. But I think my show and thing is like I think has to to age and evolve with me, mean meaning I used to lose my mind. I used to smash stuff. I used to like, you know, I would throw full bottles of wine thirty feet in the air, you know, and above the band, above me, and like and like in controlled way where I would like let it smash the pieces like right around me, you know, and like and I, you know, and going out into the crowd, and.

And you go into the crowd.

Yeah, and I go and I do love that. I might still do that, but if I if I feel like I'm doing that, because if it's part of the show, I want to kill myself. You know.

It's like or because it's expected or it's your stick or something.

Yeah, and and all that stuff kind of becomes a stick. And I think some of some of the self discussed was like I was self. I was discussed with my own shtick, you know, like writing about myself or like the idea of like doing that show and going out into the crowd, when I was like, that is not the person I am right now. I can't go sing these songs and go into a crowd and entertain people. I can't even I can barely. I can't watch TV, you know. I can bear. I'm I'm non verbal. I can't be an entertainer, you know. So like some show, I have to sort of just embrace whatever where whatever I am, you know. And so that's not always is a great show. I don't know, maybe it is. I I like watching uncomfortable performers do nothing, you know. I find that riveting. But yeah, so so there is there's a there is a there is a little bit of that of like if it feels like we're going through the motions and and trying to, you know, put on the show. If it feels like you know, Phantom of the Opera, you know that after a while, that's it's just it's just it's a bummer.

I know that female artists have to deal with this a lot. But when you've gone out into the crowd like that, has anything sketchy ever happened to you?

Like, yeah, it gets weird, and like it gets it gets weird out there. That's why I'm like, I don't know if I like doing this anymore. It mostly it's almost all love and people just like that's the other thing. It's like it's people just crushed together and sing and and you're getting in your singing their hearts out, and it's people having an incredible moment and I am too. But then sometimes but but it gets scary. You know, it gets scary when when I'm just like that many bodies and the crush of people, so that and then obviously there's a lot of people that just want to hang on you and just like want to like you want to spend the like spend the whole time with you, and like I was like, you know what this is. I'm doing this kind of for me and for like lots of people. It's not just for you to hang on me and like, you know, follow me. I don't like when people like follow me the whole time and and try to like you know, and people often try to pick me up because and I never let that. I don't crowdsurfing is I is not. I hate it.

It's because they can drop you. You can just fall into all that it.

Is always it just looks so stupid to me when you're up there trying to sing and you're being carried. I mean I know, I mean I've done it a bunch of times. It is like a it's a bucket list, you got to do it. You know, you're just feeling like such an idiot. I don't know. I mean certain bands, if I were Blake, wedd eighty two or whatever, you hell yeah, but not I can't. I just it's not it just doesn't feel right. But anyways, like all that kind of stuff is like you just have to constantly try to stay yourself and that changes. That's the thing. It changes. If you're trying to stay true to who you were when you were you know, thirty or twenty five or nineteen or whatever, you're kind of gonna look kind of silly. You know. Then again, well I even know, well I even know you know that I look silly.

I know, right, probably not. I mean, well, your daughter will tell you that.

I'm praying she does. So far, so far, she's been pretty kind. She's like, I mean she has seen some videos that we've attempted to make some videos, and she's like she's like, really, yeah, thing like that, she says. She's like, you look like you're trying to be all that. You know. It's like yeah, she's like, it ruins this fair criticiz ruined. She's like, it kind of ruins the song for me. I was like, uh, you got to kill that video, you know. I know it's good. Thank God, thank God for her.

How do you feel about the sad Dad music label? Does that sit with you?

I don't care. I mean, it's it's appropriate. I cannot I mean like yeah, it definitely like it's I totally understand it, and I think I I think I embrace it. Yeah, yeah, it feels fine. I mean, I I it's not it's not how I would define myself, you know, entirely. But yeah, that's a little part of me. And I say that's a little part of of everybody. I think it's something. I think. The funny thing is like like my daughter, I think like loves the sad dads. Like we've been we saw hoodies that say sad Dad's on it. It's like her, you know, she's into it. She loves like like it's cool, you know. And for some reason, I think it's cool to be a sad dad. But but I but I also I can see why why other artists that get the sad and mostly it's young women get the sort of sort of you know, the sad label and how that can be infuriating. And but for me, like I've earned it. Yeah, I can't mat, I cannot say that that.

Does not ship well Pitchfork. I read that Pitchfork wrote the national art dad rock as much as their men's magazine Rock.

That's kind of more sleek. No, that one's hurtful.

That's hurtful. I feel like that's sleek. That's like GQ rock.

I think like Maxim when you say men's magazines, I think it like details and yeah, I don't think in GQ is I guess yeah, GQ reck. I don't think we're GQ rack either. That'd be cool. I wish we were GQ rack. I am. I am doing an interview with GQ I think soon.

Have you done many interviews yet for this album?

No, not that many. I'm doing a lot less. I'm doing a lot less than usual. Just yeah. A lot of it is because it's like, eh, the stuff on this record is a little bit harder to talk about. I think maybe I kind of was like, it's kind of all they are on the record, you know, so so like getting into it a little bit, digging further into it is it feels a little icky. But I know that's I know that's part of it, and I'm happy to do and so but this has been delightful that it isn't that.

Yeah, I appreciate so much you taking the time and being so thoughtful and best wishes with the album. It's awesome, thank you, And sounds like you have another album already ready.

Maybe we always say that nonetheless, it's gonna be it's gotta be great. So if it's not. It'll take it then. It might take some time, but thanks for doing this. This seems cool.

Thanks to Matt Berninger for breaking down his songwriting process with Lea. You can hear all of our favorite national songs on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced with help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Holliday, and Eric's Antler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if you like the show, please remember to share, rate and review us on your podcast. App Our theme musics by Kenny Beats I'm justin Richman. Consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions. And if you like the show, please remember to share, rate and review us on your podcast. App Our theme music expY Kenny Beats I'm justin Richmond

Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

From Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam, and Justin Richmond. The musicians you love talk a 
Social links
Follow podcast
Recent clips
Browse 320 clip(s)