Pushkin. Fka Twiggs is someone whose music is nearly impossible to categorize. She's a singer songwriter who plays around with R and B, electronica and hip hop. She's been lumped into the alt R and B category with Frank Ocean, The Weekend and Sissa, but prefers not to be boxed in Bonn and raised in the rural Ukka Twiggs is probably best known for dating actor Robert Pattinson, also for the health scare that left her needing six tumors removed just last year. At least, that's what the press wanted to focus on when her new album Magdalen came out in November. But when she decided to sit with Rick Ruben on Broken Record, she wanted to talk about what matters most to her, her creative process and her music. She sat with Rick on the old tour bus studio parked at Shangri. Lad discussed the striking video she came up with for her single Cellophane and how recording this album helped her heal. This is Broken Record Season three. Liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Just a quick note here. You can listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which you can find a link to in the show notes for licensing reasons. Each time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right. Enjoy the episode. Here's Rick Rubin and FKA Twigs on her new album. How was making this album different than anything you've done before? I was able to write for my voice more, And I don't just mean like my physical voice, I mean like for my soul voice as well. Like I feel like I wrote it from more of a like an inside out kind of place, which I always have done in the past. But you know, during that in your early twenties, is doing it different from doing it in your thirties? You know, I think this process was even though I was like going through a lot in my personal life, I think it was a much kinder as much kinder to myself in my process. And I just didn't feel very like ferocious when I made this record. I think, like, you know, as a new artist, to get that those first pieces of music out, like I had such like like a fire, such a ferociousness, such a push, such like an endless amount of energy, such like an endless amount of like ambition and fight, And for me, this record didn't come from a place of fight at all. It came from a place of like stillness, beautiful. It's been really nice actually, so it sounds like it became a pleasant process making it. Yeah, And don't get me wrong, there were some tough moments, but I don't feel like scarred by it. You know, there's some songs which you know, there's just like forty versions of a song and it's so stressful, and you know you want the song to come out like it's just a struggle to the point where even you know, you're like playing at live three years later and you're kind of still got like the kind of angst off when you first made it, Like there's nothing on the record necessarily that feels like that for me this time, I wonder if it came from being in a different place or maybe just having more experience. I think just having more experience, and I think just believing in myself more and being more certain in my decisions and my decisions being the final decisions and not like not like needing anybody else's opinion or approval. You weren't sick and guessing yourself. Yeah, great, yeah. Great. And also to have amazing collaborators that were there like supporting me out of love and of like ego or like cloud chasing or like you know, that makes a big difference as well. Absolutely, Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, I haven't heard it yet. Exciting. Tell me what was the how did that one start? Well, that actually from the first session that I worked with Nicholas jar and when we did that song, like I just knew he was going to be such an important part of the record. He had like a sensitivity and just like an emotional depth and intellectual depth that really touched me. He's just such an incredible person. And he is a music artist. You know, there's music it's the first time that you worked with him, it's the first time I worked with him. Yeah, you know, there's music makers, and there's amazing programmers, and there's people that have all the tricks in the world. But he's a music artist and that's different. Like he it's not about him, you know, it's about the music and the work. And that was just so inspiring to me. And he was so gentle and so funny and so I don't know, like in someone's we were quite similar because we can both be very serious and we take what we do extremely seriously and with so much care, but at the same time, like both really goofy and really like just have a lot of fun. And like, you know, we'd have this like joke in the studio that like just before sunset, like it would turn into like cat hour, and like you know when you have a cat and then they start running around for an hour. You ever had that before, Yeah, and they just go crazy for like one hour out of the day. You know. We would have this joke that like Nigo had like a cat hourly he would be working really hard and he would just turn around and look at me and say, oh no, I felt like a cat it's coming. And it would just be so much fun. And you know they say that for any good relationship, you know, food is such an important thing because it's like bonding, isn't it. So you know, we just really liked the same food as well. So it's just really nicely to always be like hunting down like really beautiful, healthy, like homemade vegan food to eat. And there was just such a wholesome aspect to our music making process and that's what I needed. I think I really, you know. I came to him quite broken and fragile, and he just understood and he didn't try to like fix me. This was the first time you worked together? Oh, just you know, the first time and just over the duration. Yeah, I mean that was the first time ye doing some thousand eyes. Yeah, that was in our first session and then I knew and you know this thousand eys hasn't really changed a lot from the the demo. And did it start as a track first? No? No, nothing I ever do really no. I don't think anything I've ever done starts from a track. From what I can remember, I just can't make music like that. It started with me on The Tempest, all of the drums and stuff and the kind of like low end. I was doing that on the Tempest and Nico was playing the piano and we were just having a lot of fun. Even at the end of the song. I was like, oh, this song would be so good with a horn section, and I was like, I don't know anyone who can be cool, and then we were both like, just like do it with your mouth. So like the end of it, there's like a trumpet sound that's just making broaded like there's you know, Nico affecting it, and the way I wrote the song was I just kept on looping myself and recording over and over and over. I've been listening to a lot of Gregorian music and like it shows. It feels like. It made me feel like it had an ancient, spiritual feeling about it that really feels good. It feels while it feels traditional, would also feels super modern, cool, very exciting. It's like a procession to me. Yeah, Like it feels like something's happening, whether it's like a wedding or a funeral or there's just something and the repetitive nature exactly, it's kind of just keeps coming around marching. Yeah, It's just this kind of like feeling of people just moving forward altogether in Unison. You know. That's what it makes me think of, Like imagine like just some sort of procession, you know, some sort of like something that feels very like sacred and gentle and necessary. It was very organic, and to me, that's just testament to the relationship that I had with Nicholas jar throughout the whole music making process. I'm just so grateful to him. You know, we were there like side by side in the earliest hours of the morning, when we were both tired and you know, exhausted, and I think the world is really even yet to see just how brilliant he is. I had his I guess his first EP for a really long time, and then there was no more music for Yeah, it seems seemingly forever. But that's what happens, you know, Like when you're an artist. It doesn't just you can't just click your fingers and come. And I think it's different, like, you know, to set myself and Nico like we're not interested in making like hit songs. It's not about that. It's not just like where's the hook get in? Who's the hit maker? Like you know, like just get on the mic and do it like easy. It's not like that, Like it really has to come from a different place, and that place is you don't know when you're going to tap into it, Like it's it is literally like tapping for oil or digging for water. You know, you get a little sprout and then it stops. Then sometimes it's just the tiniest scratch and all of a sudden you're like flooded with like so much stuff. When you have a week and you could write like half an album in a week after like four years of only writing one song. And for me, that's kind of how Magdalene was in a way. It was sort of like one song here like a break, like here at a break, and then four songs at once. Yeah, you know, two songs in a day. Yea, it was time. Yeah, it was time. And it has so little to do with us. Oh, it has nothing to do with me. I always say that. It's just like, yeah, something just comes through you sometimes, Yeah it's bigger. That's why I text Nico the other day and I said, like, this is like bigger than us, like we did really well and I'm so happy then, isn't it? And that feeling when it, when it does appear, it's so exciting and a little scary, I know for me, Like I always the feeling like, oh I don't want it to dissipline, like you know what I mean, Like, let's not mess it up. Yeah. To me, it just feels like the closest thing to dying. That's how I feel. It's like when you die, like that moment, your last piece of consciousness before you know what happens next, even if what happens next is like nothing or if it's everything. When I feel like I'm in that zone of making music, that to me is the closest human experience of what it must be like to find out what happens next. Ye. I always say when I create, the veil is the thinnest, and I mean the veil between like where we are now and like what happens next. You're just like tapping at that door. Like it just feels like not like a human experience, it feels like a otherworldly experience to me. Yeah, And I would say it's not it's not intellectual at all. It's it's just you just feel it. Yeah, And if you think about it, it dissipates as well. It's it's such a fine line, isn't it is. You almost say, you know, even when you're institute and someone's doing something great, yeah, you don't even tell them it's good. No, you know, Like I've had that with like Nika a couple of times in the record at the end of Mary Magdalen, because I can be like, you know, I'm very involved in my music making process, and I'm very like, Nope, I don't like that, Nope, Nope, nope. I mean, yep, take that, Okay, I'll have that. Send it over here, send me that part. Do you know what I mean. I'm very like, yeah, I know everything that's going on all the time, almost like to the point like Carlos who works on a record, like he makes a joke out of it that I'll be like, yeah, it sounds great, But there was a bell in the second chorus three weeks ago when we did that session with this person, this person, this person, and it's not there now, and everyone will be like, oh, what bell. And then we'll go through all the fouls and then someone will find a bell and I'll be like, you're crazy, Like you're actually crazy. But there's a few times on the record of Nico where like I just had to back off and sit quietly and just let him do his thing. And the end of Mary MG for me was like that in the sense that he just went off on like a kind of journey of finishing this song kind of for about forty minutes. He started making these crazy, like plastic, stretchy drums, and I was like, Ah, that is what I've been aching for for this song for the whole time. And I have been through every drum programmer, and I've used every single explaining word. I've gone through every sound on my tempest, and nothing is doing what I mean. And I don't know what I mean, but I can hear it. And then Nico just did it and I was like, nobody move, it's happening. Nobody moved. So yeah, there are a few times on the record that, yeah, just that kind of presence of something else sort of came through for sure. So exciting. Let's listen to the next one. We'll have more with Fgate Twigs and Rick Rubin when we come back. We're back with more from f Gate Twigs. How did that one happen? I was in this studio with my bandmate and my labelmate, Sian and Ethan, and it was quite a flow of consciousness from ber Ethan was on the piano and I was had like my helicon like voice machine, and I started like just making these like effects using that, like layering up my voice. And I didn't know that when I was using a helicon, I felt quite free, you know, like I didn't feel because I just felt like it was like a different character and it just like enabled me to kind of like have like this cadence that it's strange because I like kind of wrapped on my music before, but it was so distorted just started. It was like an alien rap kind of quite so synthetic, but through the helicon it sounded like grounded and earthy and like you said, that more personal and closer rather than like an alien rap, which is like far away and like esoteric science fiction. Yeah, exactly like us real. Yeah, it's like roots, it's like in the earth. It's like you know, a growling voice from inside your stomach or something. And so I just felt like I was able to just express like that kind of like frustration and hardness like easier. And and Ethan was playing these beautiful piano chords, and I was weirdly thinking about Elton John, you know, even as an incredible musician, Like he's just one of those guys that can play like five instruments to like a you know, ridiculously high standard, and you know he's like, yeah, yeah, sure I can do that, but like he's kind of, you know, very humble and sweet and and quite sort of reserved. But then he'll just like pick up the clarinet and like we'll pick up the saxophone and make the whole kind of rise at the end. So working with him was really exciting. And then I remember it was kind of done in one flow of consciousness. It was sort of like a jam, I guess. And then My Tempest was on and I started making these really like ugly sounds on the Tempest and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. It's like some weird like musical but then like with these like Elton Johnny sort of like piano chords and then like my voice like going from this rap to the quite like operatic. But then it also felt really punk. You know, there was something about it that just felt really punk. And I remember my favorite brand, just ex Respects, and they always had like saxophone in their music, Like you'd think it would be like this kind of like Calamity, and then all of a sudden that the sacks would come in and I played this like crazy riff or line and and yeah, it just it felt punk to me. It just felt new, and it felt emotional and it felt exciting. And again that was one of the songs. It didn't change too much from the beginning, and it was I think it was like an eight minute jam, and I just went in and I just sat on the computer and just did a little like so it had some of the beat stuff even from the jam, some of the or was it more like ballad like and then it got amplified. I think it was more ballad like and then it got amplified from what I can remember, but I just remember one sign started playing, there's like crazy noises on top. I was like yes, I was like, yes, it's so ugly and like harsh and yeah, but again, just the juxtaposition of that and the beauty of the piano, it's really magical to hear, and it pulls us in different directions, which draws us more into the emotion of the song because it doesn't just start and stop, and it's not a it's not linear in any way. Neither of the two that we've listened to both have sort of gone through these build processes where they don't they The first one didn't really change, but it felt like it grew and evolved. This one felt like it more changed but still felt like it was took us on this journey and it was a consistent journey, like it made sense to go on the road, which is crazy considering us. So it's so vast home with you, like there's so many different types of music in there, and like, yeah, it's crazy that it manages to hold itself together with such certainty. But again, it's just like you said, it started from the jail, so it's almost like it works on an unconscious level. Totally. Yeah, totally, it is unconscious. It is that which is the best way, isn't it? Absolutely yeah, it's the best one. We don't even know why it's good, but you just feel it's like you can't miss that feeling. Yeah. Sometimes I've been working with my manager now for a really long time, like he's known since I was nineteen years old, And sometimes when I write a good song and he'll be like, oh, that's so good, like you please and not be like I feel sad, and he'll be like wine, and I'll be like, I'm never going to make it again, because you know what I mean, Like those moments you're like, oh, I'm never gonna have that ever again. I can't even recreate it just kind have happened. Ye, some songs are easy to recreate. You know, when would a visual idea come up for a song like you did a video for that one. Yeah, I did. I think fairly soon after making that, when I just had this idea that like, it's like this kind of like linear, constant moving thing taking me back home. I'm always moving, I'm always like walking, or I'm always in a car, I'm always running until like I find what I was looking for, which was like my inner child, you know. So yeah, I had the idea for that actually quite soon after making it, that it just has to be this like constant running running, running from the town and from the country, so like just running back home, like running back nature, like running through like lakes and fields and houses and kind of having like a rebirth on the way. So yeah, the idea for that came. Where did the thought for closing and eye come from? Because to follow your gut, like I had like tumors in my uterus, so like my stomach became so sensitive. I had like stomach ache for so long. But I started to think it actually became my intuition in a weird way, because if I ate something bad, I would have the worst stomach ache ever. So my stomach became this really strong sense of intuition, and even if I felt anxious, I'd get a stomach ache, or like you know, if someone upset me, I would get a stomach ache. Or it was really strange. It was like all my emotions became something so physical because basically, like my tumors were in my uterust, but they were sitting on my colon, so that I was just like irritated, and so just to be like in chronic pain like that all the time for a year and a half, that phrase like follow your gut just became like it wasn't even metaphorical for me anymore. It was actually just you know a huge part of my feeling life. And so to put like my eye in my stomach because I just felt like I was like seeing more through my stomach than I was. You know, as soon as I tried to get too heavy about things or like you know, be too up here like in my mind or in my eyes about things, my life wasn't working. But then when I was like, what did you have to what did you have to do to heal the situation, I had surgery. Yeah, I had six five wood humors removed like a couple of years ago now, Yeah, but it was a long process of healing, like then you've got a scar tissue and like, yeah, it was really intense, but that's what I was kind of going through when I was making Magdalen, that kind of pain and then the healing process. It's it's interesting because it feels like a healing process record. I wouldn't have if you didn't tell the story, I wouldn't have not made the connection, but hearing it, it feels like that, and it feels like the healing part is that sort of that spirit, actual uplifting element of it where even though parts of it are scary or dark, it still has this sort of overwhelming positive flow to it. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird, like it wasn't a it was a hard healing process, but I mean I wouldn't change it. I would go through all again, not just for the music, but just for myself and learning to deal with trauma alone and learning to be like independent emotionally to a son extent, and knowing that I can only depend on myself truly, And that was interestingly, although being an only child, my mom, being a single parent for a lot of my upbringing, and always being incredibly independent, being put in a position where I was forced to deal with something really serious and traumatic by myself has been like the most incredible experience of the whole of my life, and I'm extremely grateful for the way that the universe conspired that I would have to do that. Yeah, it gives you confidence moving forward when you, yeah, get through some serious hurdles. Did you dance before you started making music, yes, Evon dones, since I was seven. When did the music part kick in? Fairly earlier when I started writing songs, not probably like eight or nine. I started singing with jazz bands when I was like twelve or thirteen. And did you see yourself doing music or did you Was there a time when you sell yourself more as a dancer. I think there was a time when I was really young when I saw myself more as a dancer, like maybe like nine, ten, eleven, twelve, But then, like when my voice developed a bit more as a teenager, then I saw myself more as a singer who could dance, but I just didn't know how to do it. I'm from the country. I can't really explain to you where I'm from. It's funny actually, because I was in San Francisco and two of my friends came down to see me play and the guy in particular, we grew up together. He lived next door to me in the countryside, and it was just interesting talking to them because they're living in San Francisco now, and that's quite like a big adventure to do. Like where I'm from, people just kind of stay there and like marry their friends brothers, or their childhood's sweetheart, or run the post office that was in the village that their grand had. You know, it's kind of quite it's a small town life, so you know, to know that I wanted to sing and dance and do all these things and just have no idea how. I really didn't have any idea how to do it, but I knew I wanted to, but it just seemed like there's also very like pre internet as well, if you wanted to. Was there a sense of wanting to leave the leave that place? Oh yeah, I was like the only black girl in my village. It was so stressful. I can wait to get out. Yeah. I started going to London when I was thirteen, and I have a lot of family in Birmingham, so I was lucky enough that, like from London, you grow up probably like four hours a long time. Yeah, three four hours, and then I had a lot of family in Birmingham, which is much more like multicultural, so I was, you know, I was exposed to a lot of different cultures and stuff growing up, but actually at home and in my home town, it was very one way, one way, one way of thinking. I think I was definitely like the oddball of ficial. We'll have more with FKA Twigs and Rick Rubin when we come back. We're back with more from FKA Twigs. Here's your song Cellophane, that's my favorite. It's so nice to listen to that one again. I actually, like, I got laryngitis about three weeks ago, and the interesting thing about laryngitis is that your voice will like you'll lose your voice for like a week, but then it actually takes like three weeks for your voice to come back. So like, I still can't sing the Hybits and Cellophane. It's so frustrating. So it's so nice to hear me sing it there on the record, because I've been on tour for the Hybits, like I have to sing as a whisper, so it's just k I didn't know. It's nice to hear me sing it properly because I've not been able to sing it for like a month. I bet it has some other emotional feeling when you can't get the ns, does some other thing that's BEAUTIFU. Yeah, you're right, it does do another thing makes it like emotion more emotional in different it does. Yeah, it's really fragile, like yeah, and I sound kind of like more angry and frustrated and at my wits end or with no voices definitely like more tearful and yeah, and so interesting. How if we go with whatever the reality of our situations are and really are true to where we are, something really beautiful comes out. Yeah, you know, maybe it's not, oh well, this is how I wanted it. It's like forget how you wanted it and just be in it in the moment. And definitely that's what I've learned, and it's been you know, it's a singer, Like I just never realized how much I sang until like I've had this weird voice thing for two weeks, which is like almost over. But you just have to be patient, like with as far as like my vocal calls swelled up. So what happens is is when you sing really high your larynx close is tight, but if you have any type of swelling, it can't close tights or air gets through, then you can't hit the high notes anyway. I just only need to learn that this week. But like, I didn't realize how much I sang around the house until I couldn't sing. I've always sort of been like, oh no, I don't ever really sing in the shower, or I don't sing while I cook or while I'm pottering around. But I actually really do. And it's only like losing my voice that I'm like, damn, I think all the time whenever fight myself. So yeah, it's nice to hear me like bout it out there and hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll be back there. But yeah, you're really that wouldn't happen. I wrote that in the studio with Michael and Jeff, and Jeff just did these incredible piano chords and really set the tone along with A Thousand Eyes for me finding a lot of solace and the piano on this record. I never knew I could like an instrument more that wasn't like some alien like crazy like SyncE awesome, like tempest industrial sound like I never knew that I could like have a lover foo the piano, but it's really been my saving grace. And when just started doing those chords, like it just touched me in a different way. And it was towards the end of the session actually, and we hadn't had much luck in that session, but the last half an hour I just started doing that. And I remember I had a lift outside and I was like, oh, can you wait for twenty minutes? Did you start singing right away? Yeah? I did. I was like, can you wait for twenty minutes? And then my lift ended up coming in and hanging out for about an hour. But yeah, we did it in about an hour. Very simple, so beautiful. Yeah, and then at the very end, Nico and I came in and I did a bit of massaging and programming and stuff just to kind of really dial at home. But I think when when I heard it last, it didn't yet have that additional program just a bit of like, and now it feels like it the second half of it is much more compelling. Yeah. I always loved the song, but I feel like you really did crack the code of getting the getting the most out of it. Yeah, it just needed a bit of love. Yeah, sos In the next song, that one's really interesting. It sounds more. That made me realize that when I listened to your past music, it sounded like science fiction, and you were more of an alien in the science fiction. And now on this track, the music is has the science fiction element, but you feel much more like this lonely human presence in this strange world. Okay, that's cool, Yeah, interesting. How did that one come about? I first wrote that one with Jack Antonoff, like leading a session. Harley Train was quite interesting because that was kind of a slightly different version of it that I really loved, but it just didn't quite hit home for me in the context of Magdalen. It's hard to explain. If it was a standalone piece, he would have liked it, but in the context of the album it didn't work. It didn't quite work. But I don't know why. I don't know what it was. But I think also as well, I remember at this time in the record, I was getting a lot of like, yeah, fatigue, you know that, you know. The end of Holy Train is basically the last song I wrote for Magdalene, and that's when I knew I had to stop because for me, Holy Train is just a slightly different era. Yes, you know, like I said, I just sound more confident in it. The beats are more confident. Sound Wave was like making incredible like beats, and I was okay with it. If sound Wave would have made those like heavy beats like a year previous, or would have been like, I can't deal with this. But he was doing it and I was really enjoying it and it sounded great, So I was like, okay, cool, this record has to come to a close because because I'm clearly like feeling a bit more like sassy and don't now. So I had a version of it with Jack, which is, you know, it was really great, just a little bit different to this one. And then and then I took that version to Scrilex and Pooh Bear and they helped me kind of just massage it completely into place. So it's kind of like a hybrid of these two babies coming together. So it's like a lot of different production credits and bits and parts from a lot of different people for a pretty simple song, which is quite funny. But it was just due to these two kind of sessions that I did in La and then when i'd finished the song, I just felt like Dann, like it's just such like a female strong album, you know, on this, like it's such like a heavy, like feminine presence that I just thought it would be really amazing to like bring a guy into this and see what his perspective is on Magdalene. And for me, Future felt like the right choice because Future is very interesting. He's very interesting artist because on one hand, he makes these huge bangers, you know that it can be very broad, like lyrically, very broad. Everyone can kind of understand, everyone can relate, and every now and again he does these songs which are so emo and emotive and like from a different place, and he just taps into this like other side of himself, and I think it's very rare that artists can do both, especially like you know, in hip hop that's only a handful where you think, yeah, you want to hear that in a club and you want it to kind of like zone out and be part of like the hype of it all. And but then at the same time, sometimes just come out of these lines or you're like, damn, that's so true. He's so melodic as well. Future really melodic, and so I played in Magdalen and he totally understood. And I just said, you know, this is about me healing as a woman and marry Magdalene and sort of archetype of the verse in Horror and all these things, and he was like, okay. I played it to him and he I said, like, you know, just try something, but like make it real. You know. He was like, yeah, of course, and he did it, and you know, his lyrics were like intent. You know, he's saying, I'm gonna like pull poison on my woman and then like I feel guilty, so I like buy her loads of nice things so I can sleep at night. I was like, damn. When he first said, I was like damn. But I was like but then he's like doing it, and it's almost like you don't hear what he's saying because it sounds fun. But then you listen to it and you're like, oh wow, that's like some confessional like stuff right there. And it just felt right. It just felt right and it felt fun, you know. For me Magazine it was such like a deep such like a deep record, yes and heavy at times, and when I perform Holy Terrain, it just feels like it feels like fun and it feels hopeful, It feels like, okay, now I'm done. Who's going to stand up my Holy Terrain? Like who's gonna I'm looking for a partner now that can you know as any woman does, like not be intimidated by her magic and be a part of it. Yes, And do you think that it may give a clue to what you do next? I mean I've already started making music again, Like yes and no, I don't know, Like it takes so long, doesn't it, to like find out what you want to do next? But certainly like the reaction on stage of Holy Terrain is just so fun, especially after all that like emotional music, it's just such like a release. So yeah, for me, Holy Train it was the last song I wrote on Magdalene and it's when I knew, okay, cool, I'm done now. Like to start off with writing day Bed, which was the first song I wrote, to then going on and writing Cellophane and Thousand Eyes and being in that place, and then to end writing Holy Terrain, I was like, I kick, that's like a cool journey, do you know what I mean? That's like I'm proud of that before before you wrote the last song, did you know you were near the end or not necessarily. Yeah, I didn't know I was near the end. Yeah, I didn't know. But the end is quite fun because you can just play like you're kind of chilling, like yeah, you know, you feel like the heavy the heavy lifting experimenting and just like, let's make a trance music now for a week. You know, it's a kind of like the pressures off. It's just like the experiment. Yeah, let's just go back in and you know, beautiful, such a great album. Thank you, I love it, and it's so nice to see you. You seem happy and well yeah, yeah, it's quite funny because in talking to a lot of people, they really want to focus on like the tragedy of the record and how sad it is. But that's just not quite my experience of it. I would say, of all the terms that we've hung out, you seem the most comfortable in your skin today. Really. Yeah, well, I'm very shy. It literally takes me about like ten times with meeting someone to like be able to it's probably like this is maybe like our seventh time meeting now, So yeah, it takes me a long time to woman, I'm very shy. I'm very, very shy, so and it's weird as well because I think like when people first meet me, they can think I'm like quite like steely or like you know, I see, but it's just because I'm quiet and I have big eyes, so I just end up like sitting there in silence, like watching everybody. But it takes me like a long time to open up. And I guess now i'm thinking about it. It's been like the same with my music making process as well, but it's just like I feel I feel like less. I feel like I can just be more open now in a different way, not that I wasn't before, but it feels now like I can treat my music making like an old friend rather than like, yes, it seems like from everything you're saying and in the past I felt there was more of what I got from it from you was the sense of something to have to really wrestle to the ground all the time, and it was always a fight and always a struggle. And now it seems like there's some ease in the way you're seeing it, definitely, but that's also down to my collaborators as well. That's also down to my collaborators and helping it be that ease, because if it wasn't for them and for their generosity and their like willingness and helping me be the best me instead of like wanting a credit or you know. I think also you you being open to having collaborators is a big deal because in the past, even when you've worked with people, I've always felt like you were very you had a sense of ultimately you did everything yourself. I remember having a conversation where I said, you know, you don't get any extra credit for doing it yourself. It's like, all that matters is that it's good. You remember us having that conversation. I can remember so specifically I agree with you. But I do also think that as a female artist, it is incredibly important to highlight how much has done yourself, because it's something that as a male you take it for granted that if you're in a studio and you're working that people are going to say, oh, Rick Rubin did this, and Rick Rubin is great. But unfortunately, as a female in the music industry, it's just not the case. So I think if I've ever highlighted in the past how passionate I am and how much love I do put into myself. That's just more out of me trying to change the narrative on what it is being a female and having agency over my own work that I guess as a male can be taken as a privilege. I'm so glad that you feel that comfort now. Yeah, it just sounds like it just sounds healthy and the music sounds great because of it. Yeah, and I feel like there'll be more music sooner than the last round. That just feels like you're in. It feels like you're in a good place. You never know how long it's going to take to you. It's true, it comes when it comes. It's true. I just I like when you make new music. That's a fan. We like to get the good things come to those who weigh as well. You can check out twigs new album on the playlist we put together for this week's episode at Broken record podcast dot com. You can also sign up for our behind the scenes newsletter while you're there. Broken Records produced by Pushing Industries with help from Jason Gambrell, Me Lovell, and Lea Rode. The music is by the Great Kenny Beats. Stay tuned for our next episode with Bonnivair I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.

Pushkin. Fka Twiggs is someone whose music is nearly impossible to categorize. She's a singer songwriter who plays around with R and B, electronica and hip hop. She's been lumped into the alt R and B category with Frank Ocean, The Weekend and Sissa, but prefers not to be boxed in Bonn and raised in the rural Ukka Twiggs is probably best known for dating actor Robert Pattinson, also for the health scare that left her needing six tumors removed just last year. At least, that's what the press wanted to focus on when her new album Magdalen came out in November. But when she decided to sit with Rick Ruben on Broken Record, she wanted to talk about what matters most to her, her creative process and her music. She sat with Rick on the old tour bus studio parked at Shangri. Lad discussed the striking video she came up with for her single Cellophane and how recording this album helped her heal. This is Broken Record Season three. Liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Just a quick note here. You can listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which you can find a link to in the show notes for licensing reasons. Each time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right. Enjoy the episode. Here's Rick Rubin and FKA Twigs on her new album. How was making this album different than anything you've done before? I was able to write for my voice more, And I don't just mean like my physical voice, I mean like for my soul voice as well. Like I feel like I wrote it from more of a like an inside out kind of place, which I always have done in the past. But you know, during that in your early twenties, is doing it different from doing it in your thirties? You know, I think this process was even though I was like going through a lot in my personal life, I think it was a much kinder as much kinder to myself in my process. And I just didn't feel very like ferocious when I made this record. I think, like, you know, as a new artist, to get that those first pieces of music out, like I had such like like a fire, such a ferociousness, such a push, such like an endless amount of energy, such like an endless amount of like ambition and fight, And for me, this record didn't come from a place of fight at all. It came from a place of like stillness, beautiful. It's been really nice actually, so it sounds like it became a pleasant process making it. Yeah, And don't get me wrong, there were some tough moments, but I don't feel like scarred by it. You know, there's some songs which you know, there's just like forty versions of a song and it's so stressful, and you know you want the song to come out like it's just a struggle to the point where even you know, you're like playing at live three years later and you're kind of still got like the kind of angst off when you first made it, Like there's nothing on the record necessarily that feels like that for me this time, I wonder if it came from being in a different place or maybe just having more experience. I think just having more experience, and I think just believing in myself more and being more certain in my decisions and my decisions being the final decisions and not like not like needing anybody else's opinion or approval. You weren't sick and guessing yourself. Yeah, great, yeah. Great. And also to have amazing collaborators that were there like supporting me out of love and of like ego or like cloud chasing or like you know, that makes a big difference as well. Absolutely, Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, I haven't heard it yet. Exciting. Tell me what was the how did that one start? Well, that actually from the first session that I worked with Nicholas jar and when we did that song, like I just knew he was going to be such an important part of the record. He had like a sensitivity and just like an emotional depth and intellectual depth that really touched me. He's just such an incredible person. And he is a music artist. You know, there's music it's the first time that you worked with him, it's the first time I worked with him. Yeah, you know, there's music makers, and there's amazing programmers, and there's people that have all the tricks in the world. But he's a music artist and that's different. Like he it's not about him, you know, it's about the music and the work. And that was just so inspiring to me. And he was so gentle and so funny and so I don't know, like in someone's we were quite similar because we can both be very serious and we take what we do extremely seriously and with so much care, but at the same time, like both really goofy and really like just have a lot of fun. And like, you know, we'd have this like joke in the studio that like just before sunset, like it would turn into like cat hour, and like you know when you have a cat and then they start running around for an hour. You ever had that before, Yeah, and they just go crazy for like one hour out of the day. You know. We would have this joke that like Nigo had like a cat hourly he would be working really hard and he would just turn around and look at me and say, oh no, I felt like a cat it's coming. And it would just be so much fun. And you know they say that for any good relationship, you know, food is such an important thing because it's like bonding, isn't it. So you know, we just really liked the same food as well. So it's just really nicely to always be like hunting down like really beautiful, healthy, like homemade vegan food to eat. And there was just such a wholesome aspect to our music making process and that's what I needed. I think I really, you know. I came to him quite broken and fragile, and he just understood and he didn't try to like fix me. This was the first time you worked together? Oh, just you know, the first time and just over the duration. Yeah, I mean that was the first time ye doing some thousand eyes. Yeah, that was in our first session and then I knew and you know this thousand eys hasn't really changed a lot from the the demo. And did it start as a track first? No? No, nothing I ever do really no. I don't think anything I've ever done starts from a track. From what I can remember, I just can't make music like that. It started with me on The Tempest, all of the drums and stuff and the kind of like low end. I was doing that on the Tempest and Nico was playing the piano and we were just having a lot of fun. Even at the end of the song. I was like, oh, this song would be so good with a horn section, and I was like, I don't know anyone who can be cool, and then we were both like, just like do it with your mouth. So like the end of it, there's like a trumpet sound that's just making broaded like there's you know, Nico affecting it, and the way I wrote the song was I just kept on looping myself and recording over and over and over. I've been listening to a lot of Gregorian music and like it shows. It feels like. It made me feel like it had an ancient, spiritual feeling about it that really feels good. It feels while it feels traditional, would also feels super modern, cool, very exciting. It's like a procession to me. Yeah, Like it feels like something's happening, whether it's like a wedding or a funeral or there's just something and the repetitive nature exactly, it's kind of just keeps coming around marching. Yeah, It's just this kind of like feeling of people just moving forward altogether in Unison. You know. That's what it makes me think of, Like imagine like just some sort of procession, you know, some sort of like something that feels very like sacred and gentle and necessary. It was very organic, and to me, that's just testament to the relationship that I had with Nicholas jar throughout the whole music making process. I'm just so grateful to him. You know, we were there like side by side in the earliest hours of the morning, when we were both tired and you know, exhausted, and I think the world is really even yet to see just how brilliant he is. I had his I guess his first EP for a really long time, and then there was no more music for Yeah, it seems seemingly forever. But that's what happens, you know, Like when you're an artist. It doesn't just you can't just click your fingers and come. And I think it's different, like, you know, to set myself and Nico like we're not interested in making like hit songs. It's not about that. It's not just like where's the hook get in? Who's the hit maker? Like you know, like just get on the mic and do it like easy. It's not like that, Like it really has to come from a different place, and that place is you don't know when you're going to tap into it, Like it's it is literally like tapping for oil or digging for water. You know, you get a little sprout and then it stops. Then sometimes it's just the tiniest scratch and all of a sudden you're like flooded with like so much stuff. When you have a week and you could write like half an album in a week after like four years of only writing one song. And for me, that's kind of how Magdalene was in a way. It was sort of like one song here like a break, like here at a break, and then four songs at once. Yeah, you know, two songs in a day. Yea, it was time. Yeah, it was time. And it has so little to do with us. Oh, it has nothing to do with me. I always say that. It's just like, yeah, something just comes through you sometimes, Yeah it's bigger. That's why I text Nico the other day and I said, like, this is like bigger than us, like we did really well and I'm so happy then, isn't it? And that feeling when it, when it does appear, it's so exciting and a little scary, I know for me, Like I always the feeling like, oh I don't want it to dissipline, like you know what I mean, Like, let's not mess it up. Yeah. To me, it just feels like the closest thing to dying. That's how I feel. It's like when you die, like that moment, your last piece of consciousness before you know what happens next, even if what happens next is like nothing or if it's everything. When I feel like I'm in that zone of making music, that to me is the closest human experience of what it must be like to find out what happens next. Ye. I always say when I create, the veil is the thinnest, and I mean the veil between like where we are now and like what happens next. You're just like tapping at that door. Like it just feels like not like a human experience, it feels like a otherworldly experience to me. Yeah, And I would say it's not it's not intellectual at all. It's it's just you just feel it. Yeah, And if you think about it, it dissipates as well. It's it's such a fine line, isn't it is. You almost say, you know, even when you're institute and someone's doing something great, yeah, you don't even tell them it's good. No, you know, Like I've had that with like Nika a couple of times in the record at the end of Mary Magdalen, because I can be like, you know, I'm very involved in my music making process, and I'm very like, Nope, I don't like that, Nope, Nope, nope. I mean, yep, take that, Okay, I'll have that. Send it over here, send me that part. Do you know what I mean. I'm very like, yeah, I know everything that's going on all the time, almost like to the point like Carlos who works on a record, like he makes a joke out of it that I'll be like, yeah, it sounds great, But there was a bell in the second chorus three weeks ago when we did that session with this person, this person, this person, and it's not there now, and everyone will be like, oh, what bell. And then we'll go through all the fouls and then someone will find a bell and I'll be like, you're crazy, Like you're actually crazy. But there's a few times on the record of Nico where like I just had to back off and sit quietly and just let him do his thing. And the end of Mary MG for me was like that in the sense that he just went off on like a kind of journey of finishing this song kind of for about forty minutes. He started making these crazy, like plastic, stretchy drums, and I was like, Ah, that is what I've been aching for for this song for the whole time. And I have been through every drum programmer, and I've used every single explaining word. I've gone through every sound on my tempest, and nothing is doing what I mean. And I don't know what I mean, but I can hear it. And then Nico just did it and I was like, nobody move, it's happening. Nobody moved. So yeah, there are a few times on the record that, yeah, just that kind of presence of something else sort of came through for sure. So exciting. Let's listen to the next one. We'll have more with Fgate Twigs and Rick Rubin when we come back. We're back with more from f Gate Twigs. How did that one happen? I was in this studio with my bandmate and my labelmate, Sian and Ethan, and it was quite a flow of consciousness from ber Ethan was on the piano and I was had like my helicon like voice machine, and I started like just making these like effects using that, like layering up my voice. And I didn't know that when I was using a helicon, I felt quite free, you know, like I didn't feel because I just felt like it was like a different character and it just like enabled me to kind of like have like this cadence that it's strange because I like kind of wrapped on my music before, but it was so distorted just started. It was like an alien rap kind of quite so synthetic, but through the helicon it sounded like grounded and earthy and like you said, that more personal and closer rather than like an alien rap, which is like far away and like esoteric science fiction. Yeah, exactly like us real. Yeah, it's like roots, it's like in the earth. It's like you know, a growling voice from inside your stomach or something. And so I just felt like I was able to just express like that kind of like frustration and hardness like easier. And and Ethan was playing these beautiful piano chords, and I was weirdly thinking about Elton John, you know, even as an incredible musician, Like he's just one of those guys that can play like five instruments to like a you know, ridiculously high standard, and you know he's like, yeah, yeah, sure I can do that, but like he's kind of, you know, very humble and sweet and and quite sort of reserved. But then he'll just like pick up the clarinet and like we'll pick up the saxophone and make the whole kind of rise at the end. So working with him was really exciting. And then I remember it was kind of done in one flow of consciousness. It was sort of like a jam, I guess. And then My Tempest was on and I started making these really like ugly sounds on the Tempest and I was like, oh my gosh, this is so cool. It's like some weird like musical but then like with these like Elton Johnny sort of like piano chords and then like my voice like going from this rap to the quite like operatic. But then it also felt really punk. You know, there was something about it that just felt really punk. And I remember my favorite brand, just ex Respects, and they always had like saxophone in their music, Like you'd think it would be like this kind of like Calamity, and then all of a sudden that the sacks would come in and I played this like crazy riff or line and and yeah, it just it felt punk to me. It just felt new, and it felt emotional and it felt exciting. And again that was one of the songs. It didn't change too much from the beginning, and it was I think it was like an eight minute jam, and I just went in and I just sat on the computer and just did a little like so it had some of the beat stuff even from the jam, some of the or was it more like ballad like and then it got amplified. I think it was more ballad like and then it got amplified from what I can remember, but I just remember one sign started playing, there's like crazy noises on top. I was like yes, I was like, yes, it's so ugly and like harsh and yeah, but again, just the juxtaposition of that and the beauty of the piano, it's really magical to hear, and it pulls us in different directions, which draws us more into the emotion of the song because it doesn't just start and stop, and it's not a it's not linear in any way. Neither of the two that we've listened to both have sort of gone through these build processes where they don't they The first one didn't really change, but it felt like it grew and evolved. This one felt like it more changed but still felt like it was took us on this journey and it was a consistent journey, like it made sense to go on the road, which is crazy considering us. So it's so vast home with you, like there's so many different types of music in there, and like, yeah, it's crazy that it manages to hold itself together with such certainty. But again, it's just like you said, it started from the jail, so it's almost like it works on an unconscious level. Totally. Yeah, totally, it is unconscious. It is that which is the best way, isn't it? Absolutely yeah, it's the best one. We don't even know why it's good, but you just feel it's like you can't miss that feeling. Yeah. Sometimes I've been working with my manager now for a really long time, like he's known since I was nineteen years old, And sometimes when I write a good song and he'll be like, oh, that's so good, like you please and not be like I feel sad, and he'll be like wine, and I'll be like, I'm never going to make it again, because you know what I mean, Like those moments you're like, oh, I'm never gonna have that ever again. I can't even recreate it just kind have happened. Ye, some songs are easy to recreate. You know, when would a visual idea come up for a song like you did a video for that one. Yeah, I did. I think fairly soon after making that, when I just had this idea that like, it's like this kind of like linear, constant moving thing taking me back home. I'm always moving, I'm always like walking, or I'm always in a car, I'm always running until like I find what I was looking for, which was like my inner child, you know. So yeah, I had the idea for that actually quite soon after making it, that it just has to be this like constant running running, running from the town and from the country, so like just running back home, like running back nature, like running through like lakes and fields and houses and kind of having like a rebirth on the way. So yeah, the idea for that came. Where did the thought for closing and eye come from? Because to follow your gut, like I had like tumors in my uterus, so like my stomach became so sensitive. I had like stomach ache for so long. But I started to think it actually became my intuition in a weird way, because if I ate something bad, I would have the worst stomach ache ever. So my stomach became this really strong sense of intuition, and even if I felt anxious, I'd get a stomach ache, or like you know, if someone upset me, I would get a stomach ache. Or it was really strange. It was like all my emotions became something so physical because basically, like my tumors were in my uterust, but they were sitting on my colon, so that I was just like irritated, and so just to be like in chronic pain like that all the time for a year and a half, that phrase like follow your gut just became like it wasn't even metaphorical for me anymore. It was actually just you know a huge part of my feeling life. And so to put like my eye in my stomach because I just felt like I was like seeing more through my stomach than I was. You know, as soon as I tried to get too heavy about things or like you know, be too up here like in my mind or in my eyes about things, my life wasn't working. But then when I was like, what did you have to what did you have to do to heal the situation, I had surgery. Yeah, I had six five wood humors removed like a couple of years ago now, Yeah, but it was a long process of healing, like then you've got a scar tissue and like, yeah, it was really intense, but that's what I was kind of going through when I was making Magdalen, that kind of pain and then the healing process. It's it's interesting because it feels like a healing process record. I wouldn't have if you didn't tell the story, I wouldn't have not made the connection, but hearing it, it feels like that, and it feels like the healing part is that sort of that spirit, actual uplifting element of it where even though parts of it are scary or dark, it still has this sort of overwhelming positive flow to it. Yeah. Yeah, it's weird, like it wasn't a it was a hard healing process, but I mean I wouldn't change it. I would go through all again, not just for the music, but just for myself and learning to deal with trauma alone and learning to be like independent emotionally to a son extent, and knowing that I can only depend on myself truly, And that was interestingly, although being an only child, my mom, being a single parent for a lot of my upbringing, and always being incredibly independent, being put in a position where I was forced to deal with something really serious and traumatic by myself has been like the most incredible experience of the whole of my life, and I'm extremely grateful for the way that the universe conspired that I would have to do that. Yeah, it gives you confidence moving forward when you, yeah, get through some serious hurdles. Did you dance before you started making music, yes, Evon dones, since I was seven. When did the music part kick in? Fairly earlier when I started writing songs, not probably like eight or nine. I started singing with jazz bands when I was like twelve or thirteen. And did you see yourself doing music or did you Was there a time when you sell yourself more as a dancer. I think there was a time when I was really young when I saw myself more as a dancer, like maybe like nine, ten, eleven, twelve, But then, like when my voice developed a bit more as a teenager, then I saw myself more as a singer who could dance, but I just didn't know how to do it. I'm from the country. I can't really explain to you where I'm from. It's funny actually, because I was in San Francisco and two of my friends came down to see me play and the guy in particular, we grew up together. He lived next door to me in the countryside, and it was just interesting talking to them because they're living in San Francisco now, and that's quite like a big adventure to do. Like where I'm from, people just kind of stay there and like marry their friends brothers, or their childhood's sweetheart, or run the post office that was in the village that their grand had. You know, it's kind of quite it's a small town life, so you know, to know that I wanted to sing and dance and do all these things and just have no idea how. I really didn't have any idea how to do it, but I knew I wanted to, but it just seemed like there's also very like pre internet as well, if you wanted to. Was there a sense of wanting to leave the leave that place? Oh yeah, I was like the only black girl in my village. It was so stressful. I can wait to get out. Yeah. I started going to London when I was thirteen, and I have a lot of family in Birmingham, so I was lucky enough that, like from London, you grow up probably like four hours a long time. Yeah, three four hours, and then I had a lot of family in Birmingham, which is much more like multicultural, so I was, you know, I was exposed to a lot of different cultures and stuff growing up, but actually at home and in my home town, it was very one way, one way, one way of thinking. I think I was definitely like the oddball of ficial. We'll have more with FKA Twigs and Rick Rubin when we come back. We're back with more from FKA Twigs. Here's your song Cellophane, that's my favorite. It's so nice to listen to that one again. I actually, like, I got laryngitis about three weeks ago, and the interesting thing about laryngitis is that your voice will like you'll lose your voice for like a week, but then it actually takes like three weeks for your voice to come back. So like, I still can't sing the Hybits and Cellophane. It's so frustrating. So it's so nice to hear me sing it there on the record, because I've been on tour for the Hybits, like I have to sing as a whisper, so it's just k I didn't know. It's nice to hear me sing it properly because I've not been able to sing it for like a month. I bet it has some other emotional feeling when you can't get the ns, does some other thing that's BEAUTIFU. Yeah, you're right, it does do another thing makes it like emotion more emotional in different it does. Yeah, it's really fragile, like yeah, and I sound kind of like more angry and frustrated and at my wits end or with no voices definitely like more tearful and yeah, and so interesting. How if we go with whatever the reality of our situations are and really are true to where we are, something really beautiful comes out. Yeah, you know, maybe it's not, oh well, this is how I wanted it. It's like forget how you wanted it and just be in it in the moment. And definitely that's what I've learned, and it's been you know, it's a singer, Like I just never realized how much I sang until like I've had this weird voice thing for two weeks, which is like almost over. But you just have to be patient, like with as far as like my vocal calls swelled up. So what happens is is when you sing really high your larynx close is tight, but if you have any type of swelling, it can't close tights or air gets through, then you can't hit the high notes anyway. I just only need to learn that this week. But like, I didn't realize how much I sang around the house until I couldn't sing. I've always sort of been like, oh no, I don't ever really sing in the shower, or I don't sing while I cook or while I'm pottering around. But I actually really do. And it's only like losing my voice that I'm like, damn, I think all the time whenever fight myself. So yeah, it's nice to hear me like bout it out there and hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll be back there. But yeah, you're really that wouldn't happen. I wrote that in the studio with Michael and Jeff, and Jeff just did these incredible piano chords and really set the tone along with A Thousand Eyes for me finding a lot of solace and the piano on this record. I never knew I could like an instrument more that wasn't like some alien like crazy like SyncE awesome, like tempest industrial sound like I never knew that I could like have a lover foo the piano, but it's really been my saving grace. And when just started doing those chords, like it just touched me in a different way. And it was towards the end of the session actually, and we hadn't had much luck in that session, but the last half an hour I just started doing that. And I remember I had a lift outside and I was like, oh, can you wait for twenty minutes? Did you start singing right away? Yeah? I did. I was like, can you wait for twenty minutes? And then my lift ended up coming in and hanging out for about an hour. But yeah, we did it in about an hour. Very simple, so beautiful. Yeah, and then at the very end, Nico and I came in and I did a bit of massaging and programming and stuff just to kind of really dial at home. But I think when when I heard it last, it didn't yet have that additional program just a bit of like, and now it feels like it the second half of it is much more compelling. Yeah. I always loved the song, but I feel like you really did crack the code of getting the getting the most out of it. Yeah, it just needed a bit of love. Yeah, sos In the next song, that one's really interesting. It sounds more. That made me realize that when I listened to your past music, it sounded like science fiction, and you were more of an alien in the science fiction. And now on this track, the music is has the science fiction element, but you feel much more like this lonely human presence in this strange world. Okay, that's cool, Yeah, interesting. How did that one come about? I first wrote that one with Jack Antonoff, like leading a session. Harley Train was quite interesting because that was kind of a slightly different version of it that I really loved, but it just didn't quite hit home for me in the context of Magdalen. It's hard to explain. If it was a standalone piece, he would have liked it, but in the context of the album it didn't work. It didn't quite work. But I don't know why. I don't know what it was. But I think also as well, I remember at this time in the record, I was getting a lot of like, yeah, fatigue, you know that, you know. The end of Holy Train is basically the last song I wrote for Magdalene, and that's when I knew I had to stop because for me, Holy Train is just a slightly different era. Yes, you know, like I said, I just sound more confident in it. The beats are more confident. Sound Wave was like making incredible like beats, and I was okay with it. If sound Wave would have made those like heavy beats like a year previous, or would have been like, I can't deal with this. But he was doing it and I was really enjoying it and it sounded great, So I was like, okay, cool, this record has to come to a close because because I'm clearly like feeling a bit more like sassy and don't now. So I had a version of it with Jack, which is, you know, it was really great, just a little bit different to this one. And then and then I took that version to Scrilex and Pooh Bear and they helped me kind of just massage it completely into place. So it's kind of like a hybrid of these two babies coming together. So it's like a lot of different production credits and bits and parts from a lot of different people for a pretty simple song, which is quite funny. But it was just due to these two kind of sessions that I did in La and then when i'd finished the song, I just felt like Dann, like it's just such like a female strong album, you know, on this, like it's such like a heavy, like feminine presence that I just thought it would be really amazing to like bring a guy into this and see what his perspective is on Magdalene. And for me, Future felt like the right choice because Future is very interesting. He's very interesting artist because on one hand, he makes these huge bangers, you know that it can be very broad, like lyrically, very broad. Everyone can kind of understand, everyone can relate, and every now and again he does these songs which are so emo and emotive and like from a different place, and he just taps into this like other side of himself, and I think it's very rare that artists can do both, especially like you know, in hip hop that's only a handful where you think, yeah, you want to hear that in a club and you want it to kind of like zone out and be part of like the hype of it all. And but then at the same time, sometimes just come out of these lines or you're like, damn, that's so true. He's so melodic as well. Future really melodic, and so I played in Magdalen and he totally understood. And I just said, you know, this is about me healing as a woman and marry Magdalene and sort of archetype of the verse in Horror and all these things, and he was like, okay. I played it to him and he I said, like, you know, just try something, but like make it real. You know. He was like, yeah, of course, and he did it, and you know, his lyrics were like intent. You know, he's saying, I'm gonna like pull poison on my woman and then like I feel guilty, so I like buy her loads of nice things so I can sleep at night. I was like, damn. When he first said, I was like damn. But I was like but then he's like doing it, and it's almost like you don't hear what he's saying because it sounds fun. But then you listen to it and you're like, oh wow, that's like some confessional like stuff right there. And it just felt right. It just felt right and it felt fun, you know. For me Magazine it was such like a deep such like a deep record, yes and heavy at times, and when I perform Holy Terrain, it just feels like it feels like fun and it feels hopeful, It feels like, okay, now I'm done. Who's going to stand up my Holy Terrain? Like who's gonna I'm looking for a partner now that can you know as any woman does, like not be intimidated by her magic and be a part of it. Yes, And do you think that it may give a clue to what you do next? I mean I've already started making music again, Like yes and no, I don't know, Like it takes so long, doesn't it, to like find out what you want to do next? But certainly like the reaction on stage of Holy Terrain is just so fun, especially after all that like emotional music, it's just such like a release. So yeah, for me, Holy Train it was the last song I wrote on Magdalene and it's when I knew, okay, cool, I'm done now. Like to start off with writing day Bed, which was the first song I wrote, to then going on and writing Cellophane and Thousand Eyes and being in that place, and then to end writing Holy Terrain, I was like, I kick, that's like a cool journey, do you know what I mean? That's like I'm proud of that before before you wrote the last song, did you know you were near the end or not necessarily. Yeah, I didn't know I was near the end. Yeah, I didn't know. But the end is quite fun because you can just play like you're kind of chilling, like yeah, you know, you feel like the heavy the heavy lifting experimenting and just like, let's make a trance music now for a week. You know, it's a kind of like the pressures off. It's just like the experiment. Yeah, let's just go back in and you know, beautiful, such a great album. Thank you, I love it, and it's so nice to see you. You seem happy and well yeah, yeah, it's quite funny because in talking to a lot of people, they really want to focus on like the tragedy of the record and how sad it is. But that's just not quite my experience of it. I would say, of all the terms that we've hung out, you seem the most comfortable in your skin today. Really. Yeah, well, I'm very shy. It literally takes me about like ten times with meeting someone to like be able to it's probably like this is maybe like our seventh time meeting now, So yeah, it takes me a long time to woman, I'm very shy. I'm very, very shy, so and it's weird as well because I think like when people first meet me, they can think I'm like quite like steely or like you know, I see, but it's just because I'm quiet and I have big eyes, so I just end up like sitting there in silence, like watching everybody. But it takes me like a long time to open up. And I guess now i'm thinking about it. It's been like the same with my music making process as well, but it's just like I feel I feel like less. I feel like I can just be more open now in a different way, not that I wasn't before, but it feels now like I can treat my music making like an old friend rather than like, yes, it seems like from everything you're saying and in the past I felt there was more of what I got from it from you was the sense of something to have to really wrestle to the ground all the time, and it was always a fight and always a struggle. And now it seems like there's some ease in the way you're seeing it, definitely, but that's also down to my collaborators as well. That's also down to my collaborators and helping it be that ease, because if it wasn't for them and for their generosity and their like willingness and helping me be the best me instead of like wanting a credit or you know. I think also you you being open to having collaborators is a big deal because in the past, even when you've worked with people, I've always felt like you were very you had a sense of ultimately you did everything yourself. I remember having a conversation where I said, you know, you don't get any extra credit for doing it yourself. It's like, all that matters is that it's good. You remember us having that conversation. I can remember so specifically I agree with you. But I do also think that as a female artist, it is incredibly important to highlight how much has done yourself, because it's something that as a male you take it for granted that if you're in a studio and you're working that people are going to say, oh, Rick Rubin did this, and Rick Rubin is great. But unfortunately, as a female in the music industry, it's just not the case. So I think if I've ever highlighted in the past how passionate I am and how much love I do put into myself. That's just more out of me trying to change the narrative on what it is being a female and having agency over my own work that I guess as a male can be taken as a privilege. I'm so glad that you feel that comfort now. Yeah, it just sounds like it just sounds healthy and the music sounds great because of it. Yeah, and I feel like there'll be more music sooner than the last round. That just feels like you're in. It feels like you're in a good place. You never know how long it's going to take to you. It's true, it comes when it comes. It's true. I just I like when you make new music. That's a fan. We like to get the good things come to those who weigh as well. You can check out twigs new album on the playlist we put together for this week's episode at Broken record podcast dot com. You can also sign up for our behind the scenes newsletter while you're there. Broken Records produced by Pushing Industries with help from Jason Gambrell, Me Lovell, and Lea Rode. The music is by the Great Kenny Beats. Stay tuned for our next episode with Bonnivair I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.