Pushkin. Hey everyone, we heard the news last week that Burt Backrack died at the age of ninety four. He was an absolute titan of twentieth century music. Co wrote some of the greatest pop songs of all time with his partner how David, songs for people like Dione Warwick and Dusty Springfield, songs that got interpreted by greats like Aretha Franklin and ROBERTA. Flack and Tom Jones. Just an absolute monster and one of the best to ever do it, and he was working right up until the very end. He released an EP called Blue Umbrella with producer Daniel Tashian, and we had them both on to speak to Bruce Headlum back in twenty twenty. Over the weekend, I spoke to Daniel about working with Bert and also asked him to put Bert's career into the context of popular music in the century. So let's listen to my quick conversation with Daniel Tashian, and then we'll replay our twenty twenty interview with Bert Backrack and Daniel Tashian speaking to Bruce Headlam. This is broken record line of notes to the digital age. I'm justin Mitchman. Nice to see you. Yeah, you as well. Yeah, man, I'm so glad we have that conversation with you. And Bert documented such a beautiful group of songs you guys put together. And yeah, when did his work enter your consciousness? Yeah, I think I was about the height wherever the height it is when the age when your nose is like this with the piano, you know, your nose is like touching middle C. So I think I was like three or four and I heard raindrops keep falling on my head because I guess Bush Cassidy maybe had come out a few years before that, and it was just kind of on the radio and it just sounded like it was talking to me, you know. It was just one of those melodies and songs that just irresistible. That's a great time to discover back rackets. You're just sort of eye and the piano for the first time. Yeah, And I just tried to peck it out on the keyboard when my grandmother had a piano along with Mancini, Pink panther Don, you know, in California as a kid, also obsessed with Christopher Cross with the Arthur's theme, I thought that it was like this, you know, window into the world of adult emotions and adult feelings. It was like when you get caught between the moon and New York City. I was like, is that going to happen to me? You know? It was like I was just kind of fascinated with relationships when I was a kid. I was just really thinking about the adult world a lot and how it worked and would I be ready for it? And Bert was kind of a window. Bert's music was kind of a window into that world in a way that didn't make it seem impossible. It's funny. I had never thought about Bert's music that way, but he could write something sort of as simple or something as appealing to a kid as rain drops falling on my head, and something as like a mature as like heart light, and things that just seemed very complex when you're a young kid or even a young adult, you know. And then you know, when I got a bit older, I got a Dion Warick CD that had a lot of amazing song and I was like, holy, this stuff is, like, I mean, it's just so deep and and and beautiful. It's like when the B section of Walk on By, when it transitions to that other section in the horns start to rise and the strings start to rise. Du it's just celestial and it just transports you. And it's just like it really speaks to me. And I don't know if you feel this way, but like of the potential of humankind to transcend this sort of like kind of mediocre existence that we have in a way that is eternal, you know, and kind of transcend. And I was just listening to Walk on By this morning, and I mean, that has to just be one of the greatest chord changes, you know. Yeah, it's because it's no matter the version you listen to, to be honest, it's almost always striking. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's kind of a thrill ride to that music. That was one of the things I loved about working with Bert was I felt like he was making like this wonderful roller coaster slash obstacle course for the voice, you know, and they were it was just so fun to surf on those melodies, you know. That was something that he talked about a lot, was the through line of the melody through the whole song and just kind of if you look at it, is it interesting. Were you nervous collaborating with him at first? I was definitely nervous, and you know, he kind of wasn't into that, you know, And then I thought, well, this is my chance to kind of work with a hero. I'm just going to be myself and for better or for worse. But you know, it helps when you just really love what they do. And of course I wanted to write a song with him, but I wasn't really expecting that, and so I just thought, well, might as well just go for it. And I remember telling his manager Sue, I said, you know, I just wish these lyrics were better that I was writing, and she said, you know something very comforting, which was she said everybody feels that way. And after she said that, I was like, oh, so I'm not the only person that thinks, like, this isn't the greatest lyric I've ever done, but it's the one I got. And he was very encouraging. Later on, when I got more comfortable and he had kind of complimented me, then I thought, Okay, I'm gonna try to do something really really special, you know. And actually we've written two new songs that we were working on just a couple weeks before he passed away, and he felt that they were two of the best lyrics that I had sent him, So I feel sort of honor bound to see those through and I will, Wow, how far along did you guys get on those? His work is done, the music is done. It's just up to me to complete the last verse. So it'll be done soon. Yeah, they're they're thrilling. You know, this one called Starlight Motel and like he comes in, it's like an E nine chord that just doesn't have any thirds in it, and it just it just sounds like space. Man, it just sounds like you're just looking at a sky full of stars. You know, It's just it's amazing. I love that he was creating up until, you know, up until he couldn't anymore, you know, literally couldn't something comforting. And that to me, you know, that he knew his purpose and was just able to sort of always be in that purpose. Isn't his entire existence? Yeah, I think that was kind of one of the things that you know, he really felt that music was kind of a saving grace during the pandemic when everyone was so cooped up and kind of isolated, and I think that was like a real moodlifter for both of us during that time, and I remember one time I said, well, we got you know, we went all the way to the to the Grammys, we got nominated. We can we can probably put our feet up for a second. He said, nope, not putting my feet up, because the day you put your feet up is the day that you die. Wow. He just really liked to keep moving, you know, keep working, And um, I think I took that to heart. You know, I think I'd like to be that way. I mean, I'm I'm interested in music and words, and I can't I can't see a time when I wouldn't be interested, you know. Yeah, do you think you fully understand everything you might have learned from working with Nope, I don't think so. I think, you know, stuff has to just kind of filter in. And I have a lot of memories. I mean, we worked together for five years. We talked on the phone, you know, every week at least, and became really close. And I don't know, I still can't sort of believe that he's he's gone, and I miss him. I missed just talking to him. And he didn't really love to talk about stories, but he did, you know, of the old days. But he did give me a few stories. But mainly. I think the thing that I loved the most was just sitting at the piano with him and watching him process and think about things and kind of kind of tap on it on the piano. You know. He would just sort of dunk dunked different notes and then scribble a little bit. And when you hang around with somebody like that, it's like their their mannerisms and their little things that they light up about that you kind of notice and you sort of you don't really know what what it means as much as you just sort of how it feels. And I think I'll be unpacking being with Bert for a long time. One thing I can say, though, I can nail down a couple of things that I feel like I really he would want me to do. He would want me to have an interesting melody. He would want me to do something that sounds like something that's already out there. He would want me to keep pushing and not settle for a kind of a lame lyric or a lyric that doesn't have any urgency behind it or any reason to kind of be a song. We were working on this one song, and the lyrics were sort of pretty and kind of interesting and then halfway through working on it, he was like, I just can't figure out why we need to do this song, wow, you know, And I was like, yeah, I don't really know why either, you know, And and we just sort of, you know, once he tosses it, it's gone. It's like in the fire. I wonder how many great songs he scraps just because they weren't to his standard. You know. It probably wasn't him that wasn't a snuff either. It was probably the lyricist, you know what I mean, Like, he probably always did his best, and if the lyric was just kind of okay, he just would sort of lose momentum, you know. And I get that. You want something a sense of urgency about a song, you know what the world needs now, you know, it's got a lot of urgency to it. You know, a reason for a song being something that comes out and meets the ears of the listeners is like something that that's a deep concept. You know. You can take that a lot of different ways. That's great. Well, I'm glad there's two more to come. It's a real gift for the rest of us. He was an angel and so kind to me and didn't ever sort of make me feel bad about not being a great music reader or a site reader or anything like that. Was patient with me, and he knew that I, you know, had a certain amount of musicality so that we could communicate. And you know, I remember being at his house and I wanted to play a little bit of pianos so that he knew that I knew what he was he was doing. And he would say, I didn't know that you played piano. And then I asked him who his heroes were, who he looked up to, you know, because I wanted to know, like, who did he because he was who I looked up to, you know, and I wanted to know who he looked up to. And he just he said, yeah, Carol King Revel, Yeah that's about it sounds about right, Yeah, Revel. Did Burt listen to music much? And yeah, he loved this guy. He said, go one time he called me said, go look up Von Lenz. You want to hear a fantastic song, Go look up von Lenz. And uh. He this was a Brazilian composer and singer that he really really admired. And I went and listened to the guys music. It's sure enough. It's fantastic Evon Lenz l I N d S. I think, and that's something he kind of went back to just over the years. Yeah, he's like a Brazilian pop star. Wow. I think he's early you know, contemporary. Oh it's a contemporary, yeah, I think so. So he was discovering he was just still discovering new music too. Yeah, I think so. I mean I think he you know, he did he did that album with Doctor Dre a few years ago, about ten years ago. And I think he always wanted to do something new. He didn't have any set sort of way to do things or a way that he has to do things. I remember one time I said, do you want to start with a melody that I've got? Which can you believe that I would say something like that, like what was wrong with me? But I said that and he was like, yeah, sure, why not? And I played him a little of this melody that I had, and he said, well, let me mess with a little bit because it already sounds like something i've heard before, you know. And I was like, okay, yeah, you're right, and he fixed it to hear Bert tinkering around with a melody you wrote I'll tell you the first time I heard him play some music underneath some lyrics I had sent him, it just my eyes welled up with tears. I was just so moved. It was just so beautiful, and I felt like that that three year old kid that had his nose up to the piano was like having this full circle moment of like I was connecting with the source of the thing that was so important to me as a child and throughout my life. It's like he's got music for every age. It's it's I don't know, I just I was just overwhelmed with gratitude and with emotion. And you know, when he passed away, I was almost like it was almost just like a transference of transmogrification of energy. And it wasn't like I was just sitting there crying. I mean, I was just kind of like it was just a a very spiritual moment and a kind of a graduation. Man. Well, I'm so happy you guys did that music together and that you know, we were able to have you guys both on at the start of the pandemic, and uh, it's great that you guys have some some other music that you know, we can still year coming out the greatest. I can't believe it. Sometimes the greatest composer of my lifetime, without a doubt, and I got to hang out with him. I mean, what a dream come true. That was Daniel Tashian reflecting on his friendship and the legacy of Burt Backrack and music. Now let's go to our twenty twenty conversation between Bruce Headlum, Burt Backrack, and Daniel Tashian. Bert, you once said that you didn't know that a song was going to work until you were in the recording studio, until you had the musicians there. What's it like sending something I'm going, well, I don't know what it's going to sound like because I can't be there always for me in the past when they knew people would be there or in the in the same studio, I lived by the credo of it was the moment of truth. You lived or died with that song in the studio. It felt good going in, but things can go wrong in the concept. I had this habit. I don't know whether I ever told you, Daniel, when I got in trouble on a date, string players out there and something was amiss in the concept. The way the arrangement was going down, I'd give a break to the band ten minutes. I'd go into the bathroom, to the men's room, into a stall, just close the lid, sit on the stall and try to hear this whole scope of where this record was going, where this song was going, and to make sure there were no pimples. If the pimples were there, the pimples drove me into the bathroom. And then you try to try to work it through and you don't have anybody leaning on you. You're not at the piano trying to figure it out in a room full of musicians. So for me, it's a moment truth. That's where you know you got something. So I want to go back to how this collaboration started. It started with a meeting at your house, Burton. I'd like to hear both of you just tell me a bit about how that came about. Okay, Daniels on a glow, Daniel's on a winning streak. Daniel was a very very happy guy and he had just won the Grammy for produce Or of the Year and Casey's record, which is a brilliant record, and you pick it up from there. Daniel well there's a lot of mystery for me around Bert before I met him. And you know, they say you shouldn't meet some of your heroes because sometimes you know, you can maybe not have the kind of interaction that you hope for. But in the case of me and Bert, and I do consider you to be one of my great heroes. Bert, thank you. In that situation. I found you to be very warm and welcoming. You welcome me into your music room, sort of a sunken kind of living room you kind of come down into and there's there's a piano and up on the wall, you know, are the are these Oscars and Grammys and and Gershwin Award and uh, it's very very heavy stuff for a guy like me. And um, but you had worked on some music for a little lyric Shred that I had sent you, and UM, I couldn't help it. Man, the tears came to my eyes. It was so beautiful. I loved. I loved the way that you, Um made the words that I had written kind of come to life in this in this way that I never I never could have thought of on my own. And and it was just wonderful to be there in that room with you, and I was ensconced in a very comfortable armchair with a nice cup of tea and you were playing to me right right next to me, um on the beginning of Blue Umbrella. And it's a memory that I'll cherish all my life. And I could say this the thing about Daniel, I don't think you know, I've had different collaborations with Elsa for with how they even ex Carol bayer Seger. There is something about this relationship as it's grown and expanded. We genuinely really like each other. And the more time that we work, connect talk, there's no fear, you know, there's no you know, you always have a will. Will this future collaborator be something that will like my music? Will it work? See Daniel's in this, He's got all bases covered because he's I love the way he sings, which I didn't know until I heard it. I love his musicianship, I love his words. And the thing that I find very interesting because I think the work has been really productive and really good and proud of what we've done. Daniel, and the friendship has grown. So we'll talk at different times. Well, we'll keep on writing, you know, Um, We've got a couple of more songs in the pipeline now and yeah, and the same musicians, but they'll instead of all being in the studio, everybody will be in their own house like in Nashville. Yeah, and being able to hear each other as parts are added. It's a it's not the perfect solution, but the sound is good. That was one of my concerns, how it would sound stuff coming instead of off the board in a studio with all the gear. But it sounds really good. So that took any fears, concerns of new stuff that we would write. But I love it that we've we've done this thing with Blue Umbrella and and me too. I'm proud of the songs and whatever happens with it, if pride will always be there. Yeah, I want to go back to what you said about Daniel as a singer. I mean he's mainly known as a producer. You know, not everybody can sing a birt backrack melody. You've got a very particular flavor of melody. You play a lot with the rhythm or the beat I guess, the time signature. And obviously you've had some incredible collaborators, who do you know, starting with Deon Warwick and many others. What does a good Burt backrack singer have to have to sing your songs? Well, you don't know what you're going to get with Daniel, like because we'd worked in a room until we got in this studio, but I never had any doubt that he's going to sing well. But when I heard him in the studio, he does his homework. He comes in prepared. I'm a big one in preparation. And then you know it's like what works. It's all interchangeable. Half of it could work, half of it couldn't work, but we'll get through it. But our taste, we kind of understand each other and in a very a very kind of sensible loving way. He's my friend. I love you too, Bert, I really do, man. And I think one thing a singer needs to do um is to stick to the melody because it's probably a good one, you know. And I think a lot of singers tend to kind of go into maybe areas where they feel like maybe more comfortable, like doing licks or something that they know they can pull off, and that that that our crowdpleasers, and that doesn't really cut it with with with your music. You know, I think you've got to, um be the kind of singer that can that can stick to the to the inc There was an outro and we were working in the studio and this was another one of those unforgettable moments. But I just had this. I was tempted to kind of beer off into some more sort of um, you know, dreadful kind of ad libbing. He sort of said, you know, gently, you know, maybe let's not let's not let's not deviate here. You know, people think that, you know, someone who has some harmonic complexity to their music, like Bert, that you would think that he's interested in complexity, but he's actually quite interested in the opposite. He really loves simplicity. Um. He really loves UM a simple um, catchy song. You know. Economics. Yeah, uh, what's not there is building in a space. Sometimes that's very advantageous. M hmmm. And the more I've gotten to know you, I mean, I honestly, you know, I really do like that about our collaboration that I um, the learning aspect of it for me, and um, the confirmation of things that I've instinctively felt, you know, UM, I like that. Can you can you give me an example when you said, confirmation of things that felt. Well, that that really that the things that you love, that you and I love and we listen to all the time. You know, if it's name anything amazing, whether it's beatles or whatever, you know, it's all really, at the end of the day, something that's made sort of of the spirit. It's made of the emotion. It's it's it's not it's not a it's not the result of um a lot of sort of strategic kind of Um, well, if I sing it, you know this way here, um, that'll have the right effect. No, that's not the way you approach it. It's a feeling that you're feeling and you're you're inside of that music. And I think you know, Bert's music for me is very easy for me as a singer to inhabit and to exhibit with a lot of um, natural feeling because I do feel those melodies and I do feel those sentiments. So there's not a lot of strategy behind it. I think that's you know, there may be strategy in arrangement and stuff like that, but when it comes to displaying or creating those moods, it's it's feeling. It's all about feeling. And mood, and it's growing together as the song moves on. As the song moves on, and it takes shape and takes different turns, and it evolves from the five songs on the EP Are There, Daniel Is There? Can you take of a particular song or passage that may sound like a distinctive Burt backrack melody that you just love singing, or that you found easy to sing, or that you found really hard to sing. Well, they're all tough to sing because what you realize once you get behind the wheel on these things is that there's um specific jumps, which I would imagine it's similar to when an orchestral musician has to play a passage that they've got to make a jump that's at a significant distance. On the chorus of Bells of Saint Augustine, for example, Um, there's a there's a jump there. It's not kind of and it's not swooping. It's a specific set of notes that that it's very fun to sing. But also if you're not in shape, you know, the muscles of the throat they've got to um. You've got to sort of stick the landing, you know, otherwise you kind of come off of a jump and you'll be flat. Really you is it? Do you remember the particular interval that it was so yeah on the chorus of bells of saying Saint Augustine, there's a there's a figure, uh uh, And I love singing that so much. Um it's a specific series of notes that it's very easy to skid off rails on that, especially on that bottom note. And um, so those are the challenges for me as a singer. You've got to like tighten tighten your control up a little bit so you can nail those notes, you know. And there's no auto tune on this project. And I told Ryan, our our wonderful engineer and mixer, that, um, I really wanted to avoid any any tuning, any artificial help, and just really as a singer, I wanted to grow. I wanted to learn, you know, and get better. And a great way to get better as a singer is to sing some of Burt stuff, because there's no you can't really fake it, you know. Yeah. We'll be right back with more from Bruce Hedlams twenty twenty conversation with Bert and Daniel. After the Drink, We're back with Bruce Headlam's conversation with Bert back Iraq and Daniel Tashian. So tell me about the first song you worked on from this great EP and and how it started. Yeah, I texted and Burt. I texted him basically some lyrics that I um was kind of tossing around and m I've never worked that way before, with just sending a lyric to someone. That's a first for me. I'm usually involved in people sitting together in a room with holding guitars and playing and stinging together and trying to come up with something silentaneously. But it was another aspect of this process that was great, different for me in a good way. And we've come a long way, Daniel, we have and Bert, when you first got those lyrics, do you still do you still play every day or you try and get at the piano every day? Not every day? Hey, this has kept a life going for me, this whole process with Daniel, with the EP, with promoting it, with believing in it. I'm writing new stuff and a continuing process. We'll get two three more songs done and we'll do it remotely because that works. Yeah, We'll give the best of what we can do. I think you did some great direction on lou Umbrella. I'll tell you something funny about recording that song. When we were recording that, we had figured it out and we were playing it, and then when we would go to the to um no wonder where we go that part, and the drummer was like going to the ride symbol, and every the band was sort of flourishing on that section. And Bert got on the talk back in the studio and he said, it sounds like everybody's like going to the chorus, and we all kind of looked at him, like what is he talking about? And then I started to understand about the way that you're interested in developing. I think things simmering a bit more, you know, and not kind of telegraphing. You're sort of okay, now we're in the section that everybody's supposed to like kind of feel like, okay, now this is the point of the whole thing. But maybe instead of telegraphing what everybody should feel, it was more like let them let the notes and the chords do the heavy lifting, and just everybody just holds heavy. Man. That was such a lesson. That was so cool. I do like a kind of seamlessness if can be done that yeah, one goes into the other without an announcement, trumpets blaring. You know, now, Bert, had you worked from lyrics before? I know you used to often compose and then make up dummy lyrics and then how day that if someone else would provide lyrics? Did you ever have just a lyrics sheet? And you say, okay, now I got to create something from these lyrics. Yes, certainly did with Alphie because it had to depict what the movie was about. So Alphie came. The words came in first, absolutely and one of the hardest sons because I wanted to make it perfect and it dominated my life. How long did it take you to write that? Three weeks? Three weeks? Yeah, I would go maybe go to theater to see a play, but I've been working on maybe the pimples and the song, and I wouldn't enjoy the play. I would wind up leaving the theater having solved nothing, solved nothing on Alfie and not enjoy the play and everything on promises, promises. When we did the musical, all the words really that how would have to come up? You couldn't write a melody out of a Neil Simon script because the dialogue would go into a song and it didn't seem to fit to sit down and imagine what the song might be because you wanted to make it again. The seamless thing I'm talking about, go from the script the dialogue continues into song because it's just natural. Otherwise I can't conceive a it doing it another way. You know a little bit what Danny was talking about, that that you didn't want people to feel a chorus too soon. It's a little characteristic of some of your songs. And Alphie's a good example where sometimes you're not quite sure where it's going, like it's got a lot of momentum, and then when it ends up because there's there's time changes and the harmonies complex well you see, yeah, see with Alphie that it just it took me to another place by having words and became an eight bar phrase, or it became a six bar phrase or a twelve bar phraise, just by where the lyric took me. Right, Wow, I like very much writing to Daniel's words if he sends me. I mean, I had this one phrase on Blue Umbrella, the hook the chorus. You know, are you still under the same blue umbrella? You know? The way you spaced it out you added an extra bar, so it became are you still under the same blue out of that and it's just a change like that, splitting the word instead of going how are you still under the same blue umbrella? And that drove the next four bars just by that space. Yeah, it continues to evolve. And you know Bert thinks about these things a lot. You know, he spends a lot of time, Like I heard that. You know, Duke Gallington could write arrangements and orchestration in in in the midst of middle of chaos with no piano. He could just take some paper out and write stuff. And Burt's the same way. He can sit down at his desk, no piano and just write orchestration. Um, just just write it, write down violin parts, write down all that stuff. It's wonderful to to to work with Bert and watch the way that the musical ideas take shape for him and be able to witness the process for Bert of how an initial seed or you know, of an idea can can expand in his mind and what is involved as you're as you're building the structure of a song and a melody, what's involved for him and what boxes does it have? To tick. It's got to you know, he's got to see the whole length of it, the whole way, all the way through and then forgive me, Burt if I'm you know, telling your stories here for you, but right, but he's got to see the melody, the long line of the melody, all the way through, and then we can start to navigate through there. But um, you know, the collaboration is so great because we say yes to each other, you know. Um, you know, he says, I don't think that the string should come in the first first chorus, and I, you know, I don't say no, man, we got to get him in there. And I just say, okay, Bert, that sounds great because I trust you, and he trusts my words and the simplicity of whatever it is that I'm trying to express with that he trusts it. He doesn't say, hey, we don't need to be singing about this right now. So we trust each other. And that's a beautiful thing. It is absolutely you know, we were talking about the feeling when you sit down in a in a movie theater and the lights go down and it's a Steven Spielberg film. You know that stevens got got you he's gonna, he's gonna take on that ride. There's a similar feeling with with your music. People you know, they know you you're gonna you're gonna hold them um in in in the palm of your hand and carry them through that that song, with that that music tell me a little bit about Whistling in the dark. About the writing of that, Yeah, well, Daniel sent me a well I was I'll just say real quickly about the lyric. I just wanted to make something um. I like the phrase whistling in the dark because it sounds like like somebody that's um going through something hard and and and they're kind of consoling themselves by sort of trying to create an atmosphere of lightness, you know, within themselves. And we wrote that song before you know, anybody knew anything about a pandemic or or or any of that kind of uh, hard hardship that was about to concurse. So there's something about Whistling in the dark that's like, I'm I'm feeling that song right now because I kind of have to take that song's advice and just keep your eyes on the horizon and keep your eyes on the light. At the end of the tunnel, which you know it's going to come, it's just it's going to be a minute. You know, there was a hint of what was going I remember it was one of the last songs we wrote, and there was there was a sense of whistling in the dark. Yeah, I think that Lowe me. So it was almost indicative of what was to come. Do you feel that? Absolutely? And m You know, whistling in the dark is one of those examples of sometimes also you'll sing about something as a singer and songwriter and then you don't realize what you're singing about until later on it seems to take on, you know, more meaning or you realize, oh, I was really trying to process this thing that was happening in my life. And that's a weird thing that I don't know if you can resonate with that bird, but um, I think so. I think because uh, there's an element in that song like the intro, which is very dissonant piano, and it's sort of like where did that come from? I wanted to ask you both you it sounds a little like like felonious monk, almost like it's yeah, like it's falling apart a little bit right, and then the ending uh is uh also basically asking a question with the strings don't don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't don't. You know where did that come from it? Do you remember writing that that string part is beautiful and the description of it is asking a question is so interesting? Do you remember do you remember writing that bit? What you were thinking or how it came to you? Um, I knew I wanted and I got a definitely push from my partner really, Daniel saying that thing you played on the piano dissonant, very kind of weird. I love it. So it starts that way and then in a very weird way too. We'll be right back with the rest of Bruce Headlum's conversation with Bert Backrack and Daniel Tashian from back in twenty twenty. We're back with the rest of Bruce's conversation with Bert Backrack and Daniel Tashian. The songs you're writing now, because most of these were started, you know, before the coronavirus. What are the songs like now that you're writing? Well, every song is different. Yeah, we were working on one of the songs, the newer songs called twenty first Century Man, and it was a little bit of a piece of music that I had started, and I said to Bert, you know, do you want to work on something that I kind of got started on but I sort of don't know where to go with it. And he said, sure, let's check it out. So I played this little bit for him. So I like that. So there's this one part where you're going that sounds like something I've heard before, and we can do better than that, and boy did we ever. I thought that was interesting because I think I had come from sort of an environment. There's something about being a commercial songwriter in Nashville, and I've spent a lot of years here writing commercial songs very ineffectively, I might add, if you look at the statistics for the number of cuts that I've gotten versus the number of songs that I've turned in, it's pretty ridiculous. But I sort of came from this environment of like it actually is a good thing if something sounds like something you've heard before, you know, And I feel like you kind of got me back on track, Bert, because really, what I want to be is innovative in everything I do. I want to be I don't want to be sort of giving you a hook because it sounds like, oh, I've heard that hook before. You know that that's something I can get stuck in my car. I want to I want to innovate, and I think you you definitely do and I think my tendencies are sort of leaning more in that direction. I want to make this conversation about the EP and the songs you're doing now because they're so good, not about your whole career, Bert, because that would take us a month, but just that story Daniel told of you saying we can do better than that is probably something everybody needs to hear, not just songwriters, but particularly songwriters. Where does that come from? You're now in your nineties, yep, you're putting out sensational music. Thank you, and you're the guy saying no, no, no, we can do better than that. Where does that come from in you? I think it's a it's a growth process. Neil Simon, when we were doing Promises Promises one night, made this comment. He said, you know, you can get older, get fatter, but you're not like Ana, who's finished at thirty two, said you get to be eighty. That talent that you've got should be nourished. You won't fall back. If somebody says, hey, we got this new singer, could you write some of the song for her and just make it sort of like don't make me over? I would know how to do that anymore. That's left me you can't repeat. Do you mean it's left you in that you don't remember how you wrote songs like that, or just that's not something you're interested in doing. I couldn't do it because I did it once and when it's done, don't repeat yourself. I just want to say that the songs are just wonderful and it is just a thrill to meet both of you, and I think what you're doing is exciting and I think we can do better. Is something I'm going to remember the rest of my life. Appreciate you. Thanks, Bruce. Yeah, you've been good, Bruce. That was Bruce Headlam's twenty twenty conversation with Bert Backreq and Daniel Tashin about their ep Blue Umbrella. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. We can find all of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced with helpful Lea Rose, Jason Gambrell, Benaladay, and Eric Sandler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast. At a theme musics by Kenny Beats, I'm Justin Richman.

Pushkin. Hey everyone, we heard the news last week that Burt Backrack died at the age of ninety four. He was an absolute titan of twentieth century music. Co wrote some of the greatest pop songs of all time with his partner how David, songs for people like Dione Warwick and Dusty Springfield, songs that got interpreted by greats like Aretha Franklin and ROBERTA. Flack and Tom Jones. Just an absolute monster and one of the best to ever do it, and he was working right up until the very end. He released an EP called Blue Umbrella with producer Daniel Tashian, and we had them both on to speak to Bruce Headlum back in twenty twenty. Over the weekend, I spoke to Daniel about working with Bert and also asked him to put Bert's career into the context of popular music in the century. So let's listen to my quick conversation with Daniel Tashian, and then we'll replay our twenty twenty interview with Bert Backrack and Daniel Tashian speaking to Bruce Headlam. This is broken record line of notes to the digital age. I'm justin Mitchman. Nice to see you. Yeah, you as well. Yeah, man, I'm so glad we have that conversation with you. And Bert documented such a beautiful group of songs you guys put together. And yeah, when did his work enter your consciousness? Yeah, I think I was about the height wherever the height it is when the age when your nose is like this with the piano, you know, your nose is like touching middle C. So I think I was like three or four and I heard raindrops keep falling on my head because I guess Bush Cassidy maybe had come out a few years before that, and it was just kind of on the radio and it just sounded like it was talking to me, you know. It was just one of those melodies and songs that just irresistible. That's a great time to discover back rackets. You're just sort of eye and the piano for the first time. Yeah, And I just tried to peck it out on the keyboard when my grandmother had a piano along with Mancini, Pink panther Don, you know, in California as a kid, also obsessed with Christopher Cross with the Arthur's theme, I thought that it was like this, you know, window into the world of adult emotions and adult feelings. It was like when you get caught between the moon and New York City. I was like, is that going to happen to me? You know? It was like I was just kind of fascinated with relationships when I was a kid. I was just really thinking about the adult world a lot and how it worked and would I be ready for it? And Bert was kind of a window. Bert's music was kind of a window into that world in a way that didn't make it seem impossible. It's funny. I had never thought about Bert's music that way, but he could write something sort of as simple or something as appealing to a kid as rain drops falling on my head, and something as like a mature as like heart light, and things that just seemed very complex when you're a young kid or even a young adult, you know. And then you know, when I got a bit older, I got a Dion Warick CD that had a lot of amazing song and I was like, holy, this stuff is, like, I mean, it's just so deep and and and beautiful. It's like when the B section of Walk on By, when it transitions to that other section in the horns start to rise and the strings start to rise. Du it's just celestial and it just transports you. And it's just like it really speaks to me. And I don't know if you feel this way, but like of the potential of humankind to transcend this sort of like kind of mediocre existence that we have in a way that is eternal, you know, and kind of transcend. And I was just listening to Walk on By this morning, and I mean, that has to just be one of the greatest chord changes, you know. Yeah, it's because it's no matter the version you listen to, to be honest, it's almost always striking. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's kind of a thrill ride to that music. That was one of the things I loved about working with Bert was I felt like he was making like this wonderful roller coaster slash obstacle course for the voice, you know, and they were it was just so fun to surf on those melodies, you know. That was something that he talked about a lot, was the through line of the melody through the whole song and just kind of if you look at it, is it interesting. Were you nervous collaborating with him at first? I was definitely nervous, and you know, he kind of wasn't into that, you know, And then I thought, well, this is my chance to kind of work with a hero. I'm just going to be myself and for better or for worse. But you know, it helps when you just really love what they do. And of course I wanted to write a song with him, but I wasn't really expecting that, and so I just thought, well, might as well just go for it. And I remember telling his manager Sue, I said, you know, I just wish these lyrics were better that I was writing, and she said, you know something very comforting, which was she said everybody feels that way. And after she said that, I was like, oh, so I'm not the only person that thinks, like, this isn't the greatest lyric I've ever done, but it's the one I got. And he was very encouraging. Later on, when I got more comfortable and he had kind of complimented me, then I thought, Okay, I'm gonna try to do something really really special, you know. And actually we've written two new songs that we were working on just a couple weeks before he passed away, and he felt that they were two of the best lyrics that I had sent him, So I feel sort of honor bound to see those through and I will, Wow, how far along did you guys get on those? His work is done, the music is done. It's just up to me to complete the last verse. So it'll be done soon. Yeah, they're they're thrilling. You know, this one called Starlight Motel and like he comes in, it's like an E nine chord that just doesn't have any thirds in it, and it just it just sounds like space. Man, it just sounds like you're just looking at a sky full of stars. You know, It's just it's amazing. I love that he was creating up until, you know, up until he couldn't anymore, you know, literally couldn't something comforting. And that to me, you know, that he knew his purpose and was just able to sort of always be in that purpose. Isn't his entire existence? Yeah, I think that was kind of one of the things that you know, he really felt that music was kind of a saving grace during the pandemic when everyone was so cooped up and kind of isolated, and I think that was like a real moodlifter for both of us during that time, and I remember one time I said, well, we got you know, we went all the way to the to the Grammys, we got nominated. We can we can probably put our feet up for a second. He said, nope, not putting my feet up, because the day you put your feet up is the day that you die. Wow. He just really liked to keep moving, you know, keep working, And um, I think I took that to heart. You know, I think I'd like to be that way. I mean, I'm I'm interested in music and words, and I can't I can't see a time when I wouldn't be interested, you know. Yeah, do you think you fully understand everything you might have learned from working with Nope, I don't think so. I think, you know, stuff has to just kind of filter in. And I have a lot of memories. I mean, we worked together for five years. We talked on the phone, you know, every week at least, and became really close. And I don't know, I still can't sort of believe that he's he's gone, and I miss him. I missed just talking to him. And he didn't really love to talk about stories, but he did, you know, of the old days. But he did give me a few stories. But mainly. I think the thing that I loved the most was just sitting at the piano with him and watching him process and think about things and kind of kind of tap on it on the piano. You know. He would just sort of dunk dunked different notes and then scribble a little bit. And when you hang around with somebody like that, it's like their their mannerisms and their little things that they light up about that you kind of notice and you sort of you don't really know what what it means as much as you just sort of how it feels. And I think I'll be unpacking being with Bert for a long time. One thing I can say, though, I can nail down a couple of things that I feel like I really he would want me to do. He would want me to have an interesting melody. He would want me to do something that sounds like something that's already out there. He would want me to keep pushing and not settle for a kind of a lame lyric or a lyric that doesn't have any urgency behind it or any reason to kind of be a song. We were working on this one song, and the lyrics were sort of pretty and kind of interesting and then halfway through working on it, he was like, I just can't figure out why we need to do this song, wow, you know, And I was like, yeah, I don't really know why either, you know, And and we just sort of, you know, once he tosses it, it's gone. It's like in the fire. I wonder how many great songs he scraps just because they weren't to his standard. You know. It probably wasn't him that wasn't a snuff either. It was probably the lyricist, you know what I mean, Like, he probably always did his best, and if the lyric was just kind of okay, he just would sort of lose momentum, you know. And I get that. You want something a sense of urgency about a song, you know what the world needs now, you know, it's got a lot of urgency to it. You know, a reason for a song being something that comes out and meets the ears of the listeners is like something that that's a deep concept. You know. You can take that a lot of different ways. That's great. Well, I'm glad there's two more to come. It's a real gift for the rest of us. He was an angel and so kind to me and didn't ever sort of make me feel bad about not being a great music reader or a site reader or anything like that. Was patient with me, and he knew that I, you know, had a certain amount of musicality so that we could communicate. And you know, I remember being at his house and I wanted to play a little bit of pianos so that he knew that I knew what he was he was doing. And he would say, I didn't know that you played piano. And then I asked him who his heroes were, who he looked up to, you know, because I wanted to know, like, who did he because he was who I looked up to, you know, and I wanted to know who he looked up to. And he just he said, yeah, Carol King Revel, Yeah that's about it sounds about right, Yeah, Revel. Did Burt listen to music much? And yeah, he loved this guy. He said, go one time he called me said, go look up Von Lenz. You want to hear a fantastic song, Go look up von Lenz. And uh. He this was a Brazilian composer and singer that he really really admired. And I went and listened to the guys music. It's sure enough. It's fantastic Evon Lenz l I N d S. I think, and that's something he kind of went back to just over the years. Yeah, he's like a Brazilian pop star. Wow. I think he's early you know, contemporary. Oh it's a contemporary, yeah, I think so. So he was discovering he was just still discovering new music too. Yeah, I think so. I mean I think he you know, he did he did that album with Doctor Dre a few years ago, about ten years ago. And I think he always wanted to do something new. He didn't have any set sort of way to do things or a way that he has to do things. I remember one time I said, do you want to start with a melody that I've got? Which can you believe that I would say something like that, like what was wrong with me? But I said that and he was like, yeah, sure, why not? And I played him a little of this melody that I had, and he said, well, let me mess with a little bit because it already sounds like something i've heard before, you know. And I was like, okay, yeah, you're right, and he fixed it to hear Bert tinkering around with a melody you wrote I'll tell you the first time I heard him play some music underneath some lyrics I had sent him, it just my eyes welled up with tears. I was just so moved. It was just so beautiful, and I felt like that that three year old kid that had his nose up to the piano was like having this full circle moment of like I was connecting with the source of the thing that was so important to me as a child and throughout my life. It's like he's got music for every age. It's it's I don't know, I just I was just overwhelmed with gratitude and with emotion. And you know, when he passed away, I was almost like it was almost just like a transference of transmogrification of energy. And it wasn't like I was just sitting there crying. I mean, I was just kind of like it was just a a very spiritual moment and a kind of a graduation. Man. Well, I'm so happy you guys did that music together and that you know, we were able to have you guys both on at the start of the pandemic, and uh, it's great that you guys have some some other music that you know, we can still year coming out the greatest. I can't believe it. Sometimes the greatest composer of my lifetime, without a doubt, and I got to hang out with him. I mean, what a dream come true. That was Daniel Tashian reflecting on his friendship and the legacy of Burt Backrack and music. Now let's go to our twenty twenty conversation between Bruce Headlum, Burt Backrack, and Daniel Tashian. Bert, you once said that you didn't know that a song was going to work until you were in the recording studio, until you had the musicians there. What's it like sending something I'm going, well, I don't know what it's going to sound like because I can't be there always for me in the past when they knew people would be there or in the in the same studio, I lived by the credo of it was the moment of truth. You lived or died with that song in the studio. It felt good going in, but things can go wrong in the concept. I had this habit. I don't know whether I ever told you, Daniel, when I got in trouble on a date, string players out there and something was amiss in the concept. The way the arrangement was going down, I'd give a break to the band ten minutes. I'd go into the bathroom, to the men's room, into a stall, just close the lid, sit on the stall and try to hear this whole scope of where this record was going, where this song was going, and to make sure there were no pimples. If the pimples were there, the pimples drove me into the bathroom. And then you try to try to work it through and you don't have anybody leaning on you. You're not at the piano trying to figure it out in a room full of musicians. So for me, it's a moment truth. That's where you know you got something. So I want to go back to how this collaboration started. It started with a meeting at your house, Burton. I'd like to hear both of you just tell me a bit about how that came about. Okay, Daniels on a glow, Daniel's on a winning streak. Daniel was a very very happy guy and he had just won the Grammy for produce Or of the Year and Casey's record, which is a brilliant record, and you pick it up from there. Daniel well there's a lot of mystery for me around Bert before I met him. And you know, they say you shouldn't meet some of your heroes because sometimes you know, you can maybe not have the kind of interaction that you hope for. But in the case of me and Bert, and I do consider you to be one of my great heroes. Bert, thank you. In that situation. I found you to be very warm and welcoming. You welcome me into your music room, sort of a sunken kind of living room you kind of come down into and there's there's a piano and up on the wall, you know, are the are these Oscars and Grammys and and Gershwin Award and uh, it's very very heavy stuff for a guy like me. And um, but you had worked on some music for a little lyric Shred that I had sent you, and UM, I couldn't help it. Man, the tears came to my eyes. It was so beautiful. I loved. I loved the way that you, Um made the words that I had written kind of come to life in this in this way that I never I never could have thought of on my own. And and it was just wonderful to be there in that room with you, and I was ensconced in a very comfortable armchair with a nice cup of tea and you were playing to me right right next to me, um on the beginning of Blue Umbrella. And it's a memory that I'll cherish all my life. And I could say this the thing about Daniel, I don't think you know, I've had different collaborations with Elsa for with how they even ex Carol bayer Seger. There is something about this relationship as it's grown and expanded. We genuinely really like each other. And the more time that we work, connect talk, there's no fear, you know, there's no you know, you always have a will. Will this future collaborator be something that will like my music? Will it work? See Daniel's in this, He's got all bases covered because he's I love the way he sings, which I didn't know until I heard it. I love his musicianship, I love his words. And the thing that I find very interesting because I think the work has been really productive and really good and proud of what we've done. Daniel, and the friendship has grown. So we'll talk at different times. Well, we'll keep on writing, you know, Um, We've got a couple of more songs in the pipeline now and yeah, and the same musicians, but they'll instead of all being in the studio, everybody will be in their own house like in Nashville. Yeah, and being able to hear each other as parts are added. It's a it's not the perfect solution, but the sound is good. That was one of my concerns, how it would sound stuff coming instead of off the board in a studio with all the gear. But it sounds really good. So that took any fears, concerns of new stuff that we would write. But I love it that we've we've done this thing with Blue Umbrella and and me too. I'm proud of the songs and whatever happens with it, if pride will always be there. Yeah, I want to go back to what you said about Daniel as a singer. I mean he's mainly known as a producer. You know, not everybody can sing a birt backrack melody. You've got a very particular flavor of melody. You play a lot with the rhythm or the beat I guess, the time signature. And obviously you've had some incredible collaborators, who do you know, starting with Deon Warwick and many others. What does a good Burt backrack singer have to have to sing your songs? Well, you don't know what you're going to get with Daniel, like because we'd worked in a room until we got in this studio, but I never had any doubt that he's going to sing well. But when I heard him in the studio, he does his homework. He comes in prepared. I'm a big one in preparation. And then you know it's like what works. It's all interchangeable. Half of it could work, half of it couldn't work, but we'll get through it. But our taste, we kind of understand each other and in a very a very kind of sensible loving way. He's my friend. I love you too, Bert, I really do, man. And I think one thing a singer needs to do um is to stick to the melody because it's probably a good one, you know. And I think a lot of singers tend to kind of go into maybe areas where they feel like maybe more comfortable, like doing licks or something that they know they can pull off, and that that that our crowdpleasers, and that doesn't really cut it with with with your music. You know, I think you've got to, um be the kind of singer that can that can stick to the to the inc There was an outro and we were working in the studio and this was another one of those unforgettable moments. But I just had this. I was tempted to kind of beer off into some more sort of um, you know, dreadful kind of ad libbing. He sort of said, you know, gently, you know, maybe let's not let's not let's not deviate here. You know, people think that, you know, someone who has some harmonic complexity to their music, like Bert, that you would think that he's interested in complexity, but he's actually quite interested in the opposite. He really loves simplicity. Um. He really loves UM a simple um, catchy song. You know. Economics. Yeah, uh, what's not there is building in a space. Sometimes that's very advantageous. M hmmm. And the more I've gotten to know you, I mean, I honestly, you know, I really do like that about our collaboration that I um, the learning aspect of it for me, and um, the confirmation of things that I've instinctively felt, you know, UM, I like that. Can you can you give me an example when you said, confirmation of things that felt. Well, that that really that the things that you love, that you and I love and we listen to all the time. You know, if it's name anything amazing, whether it's beatles or whatever, you know, it's all really, at the end of the day, something that's made sort of of the spirit. It's made of the emotion. It's it's it's not it's not a it's not the result of um a lot of sort of strategic kind of Um, well, if I sing it, you know this way here, um, that'll have the right effect. No, that's not the way you approach it. It's a feeling that you're feeling and you're you're inside of that music. And I think you know, Bert's music for me is very easy for me as a singer to inhabit and to exhibit with a lot of um, natural feeling because I do feel those melodies and I do feel those sentiments. So there's not a lot of strategy behind it. I think that's you know, there may be strategy in arrangement and stuff like that, but when it comes to displaying or creating those moods, it's it's feeling. It's all about feeling. And mood, and it's growing together as the song moves on. As the song moves on, and it takes shape and takes different turns, and it evolves from the five songs on the EP Are There, Daniel Is There? Can you take of a particular song or passage that may sound like a distinctive Burt backrack melody that you just love singing, or that you found easy to sing, or that you found really hard to sing. Well, they're all tough to sing because what you realize once you get behind the wheel on these things is that there's um specific jumps, which I would imagine it's similar to when an orchestral musician has to play a passage that they've got to make a jump that's at a significant distance. On the chorus of Bells of Saint Augustine, for example, Um, there's a there's a jump there. It's not kind of and it's not swooping. It's a specific set of notes that that it's very fun to sing. But also if you're not in shape, you know, the muscles of the throat they've got to um. You've got to sort of stick the landing, you know, otherwise you kind of come off of a jump and you'll be flat. Really you is it? Do you remember the particular interval that it was so yeah on the chorus of bells of saying Saint Augustine, there's a there's a figure, uh uh, And I love singing that so much. Um it's a specific series of notes that it's very easy to skid off rails on that, especially on that bottom note. And um, so those are the challenges for me as a singer. You've got to like tighten tighten your control up a little bit so you can nail those notes, you know. And there's no auto tune on this project. And I told Ryan, our our wonderful engineer and mixer, that, um, I really wanted to avoid any any tuning, any artificial help, and just really as a singer, I wanted to grow. I wanted to learn, you know, and get better. And a great way to get better as a singer is to sing some of Burt stuff, because there's no you can't really fake it, you know. Yeah. We'll be right back with more from Bruce Hedlams twenty twenty conversation with Bert and Daniel. After the Drink, We're back with Bruce Headlam's conversation with Bert back Iraq and Daniel Tashian. So tell me about the first song you worked on from this great EP and and how it started. Yeah, I texted and Burt. I texted him basically some lyrics that I um was kind of tossing around and m I've never worked that way before, with just sending a lyric to someone. That's a first for me. I'm usually involved in people sitting together in a room with holding guitars and playing and stinging together and trying to come up with something silentaneously. But it was another aspect of this process that was great, different for me in a good way. And we've come a long way, Daniel, we have and Bert, when you first got those lyrics, do you still do you still play every day or you try and get at the piano every day? Not every day? Hey, this has kept a life going for me, this whole process with Daniel, with the EP, with promoting it, with believing in it. I'm writing new stuff and a continuing process. We'll get two three more songs done and we'll do it remotely because that works. Yeah, We'll give the best of what we can do. I think you did some great direction on lou Umbrella. I'll tell you something funny about recording that song. When we were recording that, we had figured it out and we were playing it, and then when we would go to the to um no wonder where we go that part, and the drummer was like going to the ride symbol, and every the band was sort of flourishing on that section. And Bert got on the talk back in the studio and he said, it sounds like everybody's like going to the chorus, and we all kind of looked at him, like what is he talking about? And then I started to understand about the way that you're interested in developing. I think things simmering a bit more, you know, and not kind of telegraphing. You're sort of okay, now we're in the section that everybody's supposed to like kind of feel like, okay, now this is the point of the whole thing. But maybe instead of telegraphing what everybody should feel, it was more like let them let the notes and the chords do the heavy lifting, and just everybody just holds heavy. Man. That was such a lesson. That was so cool. I do like a kind of seamlessness if can be done that yeah, one goes into the other without an announcement, trumpets blaring. You know, now, Bert, had you worked from lyrics before? I know you used to often compose and then make up dummy lyrics and then how day that if someone else would provide lyrics? Did you ever have just a lyrics sheet? And you say, okay, now I got to create something from these lyrics. Yes, certainly did with Alphie because it had to depict what the movie was about. So Alphie came. The words came in first, absolutely and one of the hardest sons because I wanted to make it perfect and it dominated my life. How long did it take you to write that? Three weeks? Three weeks? Yeah, I would go maybe go to theater to see a play, but I've been working on maybe the pimples and the song, and I wouldn't enjoy the play. I would wind up leaving the theater having solved nothing, solved nothing on Alfie and not enjoy the play and everything on promises, promises. When we did the musical, all the words really that how would have to come up? You couldn't write a melody out of a Neil Simon script because the dialogue would go into a song and it didn't seem to fit to sit down and imagine what the song might be because you wanted to make it again. The seamless thing I'm talking about, go from the script the dialogue continues into song because it's just natural. Otherwise I can't conceive a it doing it another way. You know a little bit what Danny was talking about, that that you didn't want people to feel a chorus too soon. It's a little characteristic of some of your songs. And Alphie's a good example where sometimes you're not quite sure where it's going, like it's got a lot of momentum, and then when it ends up because there's there's time changes and the harmonies complex well you see, yeah, see with Alphie that it just it took me to another place by having words and became an eight bar phrase, or it became a six bar phrase or a twelve bar phraise, just by where the lyric took me. Right, Wow, I like very much writing to Daniel's words if he sends me. I mean, I had this one phrase on Blue Umbrella, the hook the chorus. You know, are you still under the same blue umbrella? You know? The way you spaced it out you added an extra bar, so it became are you still under the same blue out of that and it's just a change like that, splitting the word instead of going how are you still under the same blue umbrella? And that drove the next four bars just by that space. Yeah, it continues to evolve. And you know Bert thinks about these things a lot. You know, he spends a lot of time, Like I heard that. You know, Duke Gallington could write arrangements and orchestration in in in the midst of middle of chaos with no piano. He could just take some paper out and write stuff. And Burt's the same way. He can sit down at his desk, no piano and just write orchestration. Um, just just write it, write down violin parts, write down all that stuff. It's wonderful to to to work with Bert and watch the way that the musical ideas take shape for him and be able to witness the process for Bert of how an initial seed or you know, of an idea can can expand in his mind and what is involved as you're as you're building the structure of a song and a melody, what's involved for him and what boxes does it have? To tick. It's got to you know, he's got to see the whole length of it, the whole way, all the way through and then forgive me, Burt if I'm you know, telling your stories here for you, but right, but he's got to see the melody, the long line of the melody, all the way through, and then we can start to navigate through there. But um, you know, the collaboration is so great because we say yes to each other, you know. Um, you know, he says, I don't think that the string should come in the first first chorus, and I, you know, I don't say no, man, we got to get him in there. And I just say, okay, Bert, that sounds great because I trust you, and he trusts my words and the simplicity of whatever it is that I'm trying to express with that he trusts it. He doesn't say, hey, we don't need to be singing about this right now. So we trust each other. And that's a beautiful thing. It is absolutely you know, we were talking about the feeling when you sit down in a in a movie theater and the lights go down and it's a Steven Spielberg film. You know that stevens got got you he's gonna, he's gonna take on that ride. There's a similar feeling with with your music. People you know, they know you you're gonna you're gonna hold them um in in in the palm of your hand and carry them through that that song, with that that music tell me a little bit about Whistling in the dark. About the writing of that, Yeah, well, Daniel sent me a well I was I'll just say real quickly about the lyric. I just wanted to make something um. I like the phrase whistling in the dark because it sounds like like somebody that's um going through something hard and and and they're kind of consoling themselves by sort of trying to create an atmosphere of lightness, you know, within themselves. And we wrote that song before you know, anybody knew anything about a pandemic or or or any of that kind of uh, hard hardship that was about to concurse. So there's something about Whistling in the dark that's like, I'm I'm feeling that song right now because I kind of have to take that song's advice and just keep your eyes on the horizon and keep your eyes on the light. At the end of the tunnel, which you know it's going to come, it's just it's going to be a minute. You know, there was a hint of what was going I remember it was one of the last songs we wrote, and there was there was a sense of whistling in the dark. Yeah, I think that Lowe me. So it was almost indicative of what was to come. Do you feel that? Absolutely? And m You know, whistling in the dark is one of those examples of sometimes also you'll sing about something as a singer and songwriter and then you don't realize what you're singing about until later on it seems to take on, you know, more meaning or you realize, oh, I was really trying to process this thing that was happening in my life. And that's a weird thing that I don't know if you can resonate with that bird, but um, I think so. I think because uh, there's an element in that song like the intro, which is very dissonant piano, and it's sort of like where did that come from? I wanted to ask you both you it sounds a little like like felonious monk, almost like it's yeah, like it's falling apart a little bit right, and then the ending uh is uh also basically asking a question with the strings don't don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't don't. You know where did that come from it? Do you remember writing that that string part is beautiful and the description of it is asking a question is so interesting? Do you remember do you remember writing that bit? What you were thinking or how it came to you? Um, I knew I wanted and I got a definitely push from my partner really, Daniel saying that thing you played on the piano dissonant, very kind of weird. I love it. So it starts that way and then in a very weird way too. We'll be right back with the rest of Bruce Headlum's conversation with Bert Backrack and Daniel Tashian from back in twenty twenty. We're back with the rest of Bruce's conversation with Bert Backrack and Daniel Tashian. The songs you're writing now, because most of these were started, you know, before the coronavirus. What are the songs like now that you're writing? Well, every song is different. Yeah, we were working on one of the songs, the newer songs called twenty first Century Man, and it was a little bit of a piece of music that I had started, and I said to Bert, you know, do you want to work on something that I kind of got started on but I sort of don't know where to go with it. And he said, sure, let's check it out. So I played this little bit for him. So I like that. So there's this one part where you're going that sounds like something I've heard before, and we can do better than that, and boy did we ever. I thought that was interesting because I think I had come from sort of an environment. There's something about being a commercial songwriter in Nashville, and I've spent a lot of years here writing commercial songs very ineffectively, I might add, if you look at the statistics for the number of cuts that I've gotten versus the number of songs that I've turned in, it's pretty ridiculous. But I sort of came from this environment of like it actually is a good thing if something sounds like something you've heard before, you know, And I feel like you kind of got me back on track, Bert, because really, what I want to be is innovative in everything I do. I want to be I don't want to be sort of giving you a hook because it sounds like, oh, I've heard that hook before. You know that that's something I can get stuck in my car. I want to I want to innovate, and I think you you definitely do and I think my tendencies are sort of leaning more in that direction. I want to make this conversation about the EP and the songs you're doing now because they're so good, not about your whole career, Bert, because that would take us a month, but just that story Daniel told of you saying we can do better than that is probably something everybody needs to hear, not just songwriters, but particularly songwriters. Where does that come from? You're now in your nineties, yep, you're putting out sensational music. Thank you, and you're the guy saying no, no, no, we can do better than that. Where does that come from in you? I think it's a it's a growth process. Neil Simon, when we were doing Promises Promises one night, made this comment. He said, you know, you can get older, get fatter, but you're not like Ana, who's finished at thirty two, said you get to be eighty. That talent that you've got should be nourished. You won't fall back. If somebody says, hey, we got this new singer, could you write some of the song for her and just make it sort of like don't make me over? I would know how to do that anymore. That's left me you can't repeat. Do you mean it's left you in that you don't remember how you wrote songs like that, or just that's not something you're interested in doing. I couldn't do it because I did it once and when it's done, don't repeat yourself. I just want to say that the songs are just wonderful and it is just a thrill to meet both of you, and I think what you're doing is exciting and I think we can do better. Is something I'm going to remember the rest of my life. Appreciate you. Thanks, Bruce. Yeah, you've been good, Bruce. That was Bruce Headlam's twenty twenty conversation with Bert Backreq and Daniel Tashin about their ep Blue Umbrella. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. We can find all of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced with helpful Lea Rose, Jason Gambrell, Benaladay, and Eric Sandler. Our editor is Sophie Crane. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast. At a theme musics by Kenny Beats, I'm Justin Richman.