Pushkin Pushkin. Michelle and Degiocello doesn't fit neatly into the jazz label, or any label of any kind for that matter. She's a phenomenal bass player, a deep songwriter, beautiful interpreter of song, an incredible band leader, and has one badass career. So even though she's not strictly jazz, it's fitting that after a securitiest journey through the industry that started as one of the premier artists on Madonna's Maverick Records in the early nineties, she's now released two albums on Blue Miot Records under the guidance of Don Was. The first was last year's The Omnichord Real Book, a project with a fascinating origin will be discussing on today's episode. The latest is twenty twenty four's No More Water The Gospel of James Baldwin, a tribute to two of the great Black American writers and thinkers of the last century, James Baldwin and Audrey Lord. That might sound heady, but consider the source. Michelle is the product of a Washington d c. Upbringing a city a wash in culture like go go music and also politics, think tanks and the like. Like her DC home. Michelle's a great synthesizer of music and ideas. Joining Michelle, don Was and myself on our chat as a Browns, an inn demand drummer and musician who's been playing with Michelle since she picked him out of Berkeley College of Music. He's also worked closely with Andrew Byrd, Nicka, Keen, Blake Mills, and many more. But in today's episode, he helps us gain some valuable insight about what it's like to be a close collaborator of Michelle and Degiocello. This is Broken Record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Mitchman. Here's Don Was and myself from Amazon Music Studio one to twenty six in Culver City, California, with Michelle and degio Cello and drummer Abe Browns. To see the full video version of this episode, go to YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. I mean, DC's very on the surface, it looks like what it is, but there's all kinds of things going on below the surface in DC. I feel like or beneath the veneer on the other on the flip side, you know, musically.

Pushkin Pushkin. Michelle and Degiocello doesn't fit neatly into the jazz label, or any label of any kind for that matter. She's a phenomenal bass player, a deep songwriter, beautiful interpreter of song, an incredible band leader, and has one badass career. So even though she's not strictly jazz, it's fitting that after a securitiest journey through the industry that started as one of the premier artists on Madonna's Maverick Records in the early nineties, she's now released two albums on Blue Miot Records under the guidance of Don Was. The first was last year's The Omnichord Real Book, a project with a fascinating origin will be discussing on today's episode. The latest is twenty twenty four's No More Water The Gospel of James Baldwin, a tribute to two of the great Black American writers and thinkers of the last century, James Baldwin and Audrey Lord. That might sound heady, but consider the source. Michelle is the product of a Washington d c. Upbringing a city a wash in culture like go go music and also politics, think tanks and the like. Like her DC home. Michelle's a great synthesizer of music and ideas. Joining Michelle, don Was and myself on our chat as a Browns, an inn demand drummer and musician who's been playing with Michelle since she picked him out of Berkeley College of Music. He's also worked closely with Andrew Byrd, Nicka, Keen, Blake Mills, and many more. But in today's episode, he helps us gain some valuable insight about what it's like to be a close collaborator of Michelle and Degiocello. This is Broken Record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Mitchman. Here's Don Was and myself from Amazon Music Studio one to twenty six in Culver City, California, with Michelle and degio Cello and drummer Abe Browns. To see the full video version of this episode, go to YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. I mean, DC's very on the surface, it looks like what it is, but there's all kinds of things going on below the surface in DC. I feel like or beneath the veneer on the other on the flip side, you know, musically.

Yes, yeah, yeah, it was a percussive element definitely made his way. There's so much of that in go go music. And when I went to Cuba it changed me because it was it was the first time someone told me like, stop counting and just play, just play, and if the people aren't moving to the music, then you're not. You haven't reached that place yet. We're not locked.

Yes, yeah, yeah, it was a percussive element definitely made his way. There's so much of that in go go music. And when I went to Cuba it changed me because it was it was the first time someone told me like, stop counting and just play, just play, and if the people aren't moving to the music, then you're not. You haven't reached that place yet. We're not locked.

How do you implement theory? That might be easy stop counting, but how do you in practice?

How do you implement theory? That might be easy stop counting, but how do you in practice?

Listen?

Listen?

Listen? You know, just you just have to have complete trust and listen. I'm not good at it yet, you know. It's just it's a constant unfolding of when you start to just trust yourself and you're just using your ears and you're listening.

Listen? You know, just you just have to have complete trust and listen. I'm not good at it yet, you know. It's just it's a constant unfolding of when you start to just trust yourself and you're just using your ears and you're listening.

I think you're awesome at it. Actually, I was just watching a clip of you with Oliver Lake and Chris Dave doctor Strange. Is that the song?

I think you're awesome at it. Actually, I was just watching a clip of you with Oliver Lake and Chris Dave doctor Strange. Is that the song?

Yeah?

Yeah?

And you're standing there playing one of the most syncopated original sound and bass parts I ever heard in my life, and no one is helping you hold those syncopations down. Everyone's working playing polyrhythms against it, and you never lost that. I was just like, how does she hold this groove down with all this counterpoint going on?

And you're standing there playing one of the most syncopated original sound and bass parts I ever heard in my life, and no one is helping you hold those syncopations down. Everyone's working playing polyrhythms against it, and you never lost that. I was just like, how does she hold this groove down with all this counterpoint going on?

Around.

Around.

I'm the drummer's best friend.

I'm the drummer's best friend.

Yeah, yeah, yeah you are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah you are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Probably comes from playing Go Go and just having to hold it down so people can have a good time, right.

Probably comes from playing Go Go and just having to hold it down so people can have a good time, right.

Yeah, I mean I grew up where if you you veered off, I mean everything would literally stop, or you just would someone would get hurt, someone would get hurt, or you'd have to really endure intense criticism after I mean painful jousting and dozens.

Yeah, I mean I grew up where if you you veered off, I mean everything would literally stop, or you just would someone would get hurt, someone would get hurt, or you'd have to really endure intense criticism after I mean painful jousting and dozens.

That's that's the that's the environment you came up with.

That's that's the that's the environment you came up with.

Yes, Go Go is a very masculine and intense.

Yes, Go Go is a very masculine and intense.

Music question. Yeah, Chuck Brown or Rare Essence? Who is the originator?

Music question. Yeah, Chuck Brown or Rare Essence? Who is the originator?

Just they're both so very different, and I think the originator is a band called Eu actually or Trouble Funk or Junkyard. There are mini bands that were before them just didn't get any recogniz But there's a great deaf jam record by Junkyard called Sardines and Pork and Beans. To me, that is the foundational example of Go Go.

Just they're both so very different, and I think the originator is a band called Eu actually or Trouble Funk or Junkyard. There are mini bands that were before them just didn't get any recogniz But there's a great deaf jam record by Junkyard called Sardines and Pork and Beans. To me, that is the foundational example of Go Go.

When did Go Go become such a part of DC? Like, was it always there as far as you were?

When did Go Go become such a part of DC? Like, was it always there as far as you were?

Yeah, as far as I don't know. I'm I'm old but not old enough to know where it stems from.

Yeah, as far as I don't know. I'm I'm old but not old enough to know where it stems from.

You just always heard it growing up.

You just always heard it growing up.

Always was the main music, the only music that made money. Jazz gigs didn't make any money. I could play five nights a week on go go gigs and make more money than my dad. And he had society.

Always was the main music, the only music that made money. Jazz gigs didn't make any money. I could play five nights a week on go go gigs and make more money than my dad. And he had society.

Gigs, oh man like like when you say society gigs.

Gigs, oh man like like when you say society gigs.

Like like he played he was in the army, so he played at the NCO Club. I would play at the Capitol, you know, but the go go was the driving force of DC eighties.

Like like he played he was in the army, so he played at the NCO Club. I would play at the Capitol, you know, but the go go was the driving force of DC eighties.

Where did your dad Your dad been a jazz musician And did you feel and I imagine you learned. I mean I read that your first real book came from your father. Did you feel like you wanted to maybe play more jazz or I mean like the fact that you could make the money doing go go was that the.

Where did your dad Your dad been a jazz musician And did you feel and I imagine you learned. I mean I read that your first real book came from your father. Did you feel like you wanted to maybe play more jazz or I mean like the fact that you could make the money doing go go was that the.

These are deep, long conversations. I think when you're young, you're first starting to play, you just want to find your community. It's funny I was asking a does he feelly belongs to any sort of click or genre that's coming up? And I think that when I was young, I was like, this is the music that everyone's going to see. I'm making a lot of friends, and that's what drew me to it. It is like I got to be with like minded people when we're trying to get good at something. But I also liked hanging out with my friend Federico, who loved Toto and Van Halen, and so I was drawn to that too, and the beauty about DC. In the seventies there wasn't genre based radio, so I could hear Bad Brains and Parliament and you know, Kim Carnes and Gladys Knight. I just never felt that sort of separation. And so to say, was I into it? I was just into anything that would get me playing and meeting people who were trying to make things and make live bands.

These are deep, long conversations. I think when you're young, you're first starting to play, you just want to find your community. It's funny I was asking a does he feelly belongs to any sort of click or genre that's coming up? And I think that when I was young, I was like, this is the music that everyone's going to see. I'm making a lot of friends, and that's what drew me to it. It is like I got to be with like minded people when we're trying to get good at something. But I also liked hanging out with my friend Federico, who loved Toto and Van Halen, and so I was drawn to that too, and the beauty about DC. In the seventies there wasn't genre based radio, so I could hear Bad Brains and Parliament and you know, Kim Carnes and Gladys Knight. I just never felt that sort of separation. And so to say, was I into it? I was just into anything that would get me playing and meeting people who were trying to make things and make live bands.

You know, yeah, were you all? As a bass player?

You know, yeah, were you all? As a bass player?

I played the clarinet for a while, but my brother played the guitar and his friend left the bassover and once I realized it allowed him and I to interact and play together, I was like, this is when I want to play.

I played the clarinet for a while, but my brother played the guitar and his friend left the bassover and once I realized it allowed him and I to interact and play together, I was like, this is when I want to play.

Did you try playing guitar before that?

Did you try playing guitar before that?

Like, yeah, that didn't work for me? What about different energy? I have more of a bass player energy. Guitar players are very they have a confidence and a need to be out front. Sorry, to make a generalization, I think I'm more of a like I like to watch everything and see what I can add that will be helpful.

Like, yeah, that didn't work for me? What about different energy? I have more of a bass player energy. Guitar players are very they have a confidence and a need to be out front. Sorry, to make a generalization, I think I'm more of a like I like to watch everything and see what I can add that will be helpful.

It's a confidence thoughing that too, like that that there is a confidence in bass players that comes. I don't know from an I'm not a bass player, but observing bass players always intimidating to me in the sense that they're always listening, they see everything.

It's a confidence thoughing that too, like that that there is a confidence in bass players that comes. I don't know from an I'm not a bass player, but observing bass players always intimidating to me in the sense that they're always listening, they see everything.

Natural leader of the band.

Natural leader of the band.

That's why they make good producers.

That's why they make good producers.

I don't know about that. But we're the natural leader of the band. We can turn around, we can walk, we can tell the drummer he's slowing down. You can throw up a hand to make a like it's coming. You know, you're the one that can like get it happening. You're the natural. You can walk up to the singer and be like, we're at the first and you know, you just have a natural vibe.

I don't know about that. But we're the natural leader of the band. We can turn around, we can walk, we can tell the drummer he's slowing down. You can throw up a hand to make a like it's coming. You know, you're the one that can like get it happening. You're the natural. You can walk up to the singer and be like, we're at the first and you know, you just have a natural vibe.

Get the guitar player back focused.

Get the guitar player back focused.

And plus, yeah, you're all right, you're all right with taking your hands off the instrument. Where a guitar player a keyboard player, it's not.

And plus, yeah, you're all right, you're all right with taking your hands off the instrument. Where a guitar player a keyboard player, it's not.

And you can play one bass that and change the entire homony.

And you can play one bass that and change the entire homony.

Everyone's a bass player in my band. Abe's father is one of the greatest bass players in Sydney, Australia. Amazing bass player. Chris Bruce is a bass player. Jevin Bruney, who play with Pil Tears for Fears also bass player first. So it's just a it's a bass player band.

Everyone's a bass player in my band. Abe's father is one of the greatest bass players in Sydney, Australia. Amazing bass player. Chris Bruce is a bass player. Jevin Bruney, who play with Pil Tears for Fears also bass player first. So it's just a it's a bass player band.

Sometimes someone else plays bass in your bands, Yeah, Kyle Miles, And why do you not play?

Sometimes someone else plays bass in your bands, Yeah, Kyle Miles, And why do you not play?

I come from the reason I think I have a career is I made one catchy R and B song and so I'm sort of I come from the R and B and go go thing where I'm there to interact with the audience and I have to make some sort of connection to the audience, and I can't if I'm when I'm playing the bass, I'm lost in that and I don't have that connection.

I come from the reason I think I have a career is I made one catchy R and B song and so I'm sort of I come from the R and B and go go thing where I'm there to interact with the audience and I have to make some sort of connection to the audience, and I can't if I'm when I'm playing the bass, I'm lost in that and I don't have that connection.

Sometimes you do two basses, right, yeah, yeah, how do you how do you break that down?

Sometimes you do two basses, right, yeah, yeah, how do you how do you break that down?

Yeah? We passed back and forth, try to. I think the sound man creates a nice balance of us. And sometimes, yeah, it's just hard to sing and play certain I write certain basslines that are so contrapuntal to the vocal. But yeah, it's also yeah, it's like it's not my shtick. I really love to play the bass. And then take it seriously.

Yeah? We passed back and forth, try to. I think the sound man creates a nice balance of us. And sometimes, yeah, it's just hard to sing and play certain I write certain basslines that are so contrapuntal to the vocal. But yeah, it's also yeah, it's like it's not my shtick. I really love to play the bass. And then take it seriously.

So you're such a brilliant bass player, I appreciate you saying, and gorgeous songwriter. How do you? How do you? How do you balance the two? I mean I personally as a as a failed musician, you know, I mean trying to find the time to work on songwriting, to work on you know, early on, I guess I mean now you're you're in, you know, you're on your path, but hopefully early on, I mean, I guess, when did songwriting become a part of your life?

So you're such a brilliant bass player, I appreciate you saying, and gorgeous songwriter. How do you? How do you? How do you balance the two? I mean I personally as a as a failed musician, you know, I mean trying to find the time to work on songwriting, to work on you know, early on, I guess I mean now you're you're in, you know, you're on your path, but hopefully early on, I mean, I guess, when did songwriting become a part of your life?

Oh?

Oh?

My father he liked to go to pawn shops and he would just by all kinds of equipment, and he bought a roads and a little four track when I was about thirteen. And once I realized you could multi track and layer things, that was a big change. And I was on a jazz gig and I flailed and I realized I'm never going to be like a virtuoso, but I really like making things. And I found Catharsis in that. I think that's when I was like, I'm going to be a songwriter. That's gonna be my be my thing.

My father he liked to go to pawn shops and he would just by all kinds of equipment, and he bought a roads and a little four track when I was about thirteen. And once I realized you could multi track and layer things, that was a big change. And I was on a jazz gig and I flailed and I realized I'm never going to be like a virtuoso, but I really like making things. And I found Catharsis in that. I think that's when I was like, I'm going to be a songwriter. That's gonna be my be my thing.

That gave you a way to be involved in music without being the yeah, VIRTUALO, So.

That gave you a way to be involved in music without being the yeah, VIRTUALO, So.

Then I felt you Yeah, it would never be.

Then I felt you Yeah, it would never be.

Yeah.

Yeah.

When you're writing a song, are you hearing the textures that you're going to add to it?

When you're writing a song, are you hearing the textures that you're going to add to it?

Oh?

Oh?

Yeah, very much so Yeah, I'm very just do want to sound. I'm very aware. I have an awareness to the sonic feeling of a song more so than harmony and construction. I really am trying to create an emotional feeling with sonics. I'm very sensitive to mixes, like I really feel like you can you can change the way someone interacts with the song just by slight variations in the mix. And I can't say where that comes from.

Yeah, very much so Yeah, I'm very just do want to sound. I'm very aware. I have an awareness to the sonic feeling of a song more so than harmony and construction. I really am trying to create an emotional feeling with sonics. I'm very sensitive to mixes, like I really feel like you can you can change the way someone interacts with the song just by slight variations in the mix. And I can't say where that comes from.

I just.

I just.

I'm a believer. I just think that's it's a gift and a burden. But that's what I try to hone into. I think how the song makes the person feel. I can't tell them what to feel, but I want it to sound in a way that they can take it in a certain way.

I'm a believer. I just think that's it's a gift and a burden. But that's what I try to hone into. I think how the song makes the person feel. I can't tell them what to feel, but I want it to sound in a way that they can take it in a certain way.

How do you how do you want to feel like.

How do you how do you want to feel like.

Different all the time?

Different all the time?

You know?

You know?

I I when I'm making music, Yeah, I just I want to feel an array of emotions that that that only I know. But when I put the music out there, I just hope it sonically hits a place where you can feel whatever you need to feel.

I I when I'm making music, Yeah, I just I want to feel an array of emotions that that that only I know. But when I put the music out there, I just hope it sonically hits a place where you can feel whatever you need to feel.

So you try to get to a place where at least you're feeling something and therefore, hopefully then yeah.

So you try to get to a place where at least you're feeling something and therefore, hopefully then yeah.

I sound like an asshole. No, I always feel something. I mean, I just yeah, I love I I I love music all kinds, all styles. Good. I don't believe in good or bad. It's very opaque. There's certain things you may enjoy listening to, other things you might not. I take a critique like a compliment, and a compliment like a critique, and that and that keeps me enjoying music.

I sound like an asshole. No, I always feel something. I mean, I just yeah, I love I I I love music all kinds, all styles. Good. I don't believe in good or bad. It's very opaque. There's certain things you may enjoy listening to, other things you might not. I take a critique like a compliment, and a compliment like a critique, and that and that keeps me enjoying music.

You know.

You know.

That's a really great way to think about feedback. Yeah, yeah, that's a really incredible way. Who if Go Go was kind of the foundation of of of of you learning to Uh well, actually, let me ask this too, because you said that Go Go had a very masculine energy, but at the same time, your bass player, and as you said, bass player is really commanding the band. You're kind of you're the leader, You're you're calling everything. Did that How did that feel? Early on? As you're a nascent bass player and you're in a very male dominated or masculine genre, you're playing gigs in the genre that feels very masculine as that energy.

That's a really great way to think about feedback. Yeah, yeah, that's a really incredible way. Who if Go Go was kind of the foundation of of of of you learning to Uh well, actually, let me ask this too, because you said that Go Go had a very masculine energy, but at the same time, your bass player, and as you said, bass player is really commanding the band. You're kind of you're the leader, You're you're calling everything. Did that How did that feel? Early on? As you're a nascent bass player and you're in a very male dominated or masculine genre, you're playing gigs in the genre that feels very masculine as that energy.

Oh well, I can only give an example. I had to play my don create this festival where you play one of your records and its entirety, and so we chose the first record to play, and I go back and I look at videos and I am like a raise jing asshole in my in my vibe in the way I play, it's like on ten, you know. And I know it's like a certain sort of style I have. The It's it's just energetic frequency I think I got from Go Go everything really tight, you know, like the gus are pulsating tight and fast, like the temples are like whoa. And and so when I sat when we went to play it now, and it's just like I just don't even have that energy. I just don't even have that vibration wow anymore. And so I think it was a I had to had a sense of preservation in order to make it like I didn't want. The thing I couldn't stand is you played good for you know, being a woman. And I used to just crush me and I just eventually was like, nah, I'm good, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna play the best that's just so good that you don't say anything and so command. With such command, I want to hear nothing from you.

Oh well, I can only give an example. I had to play my don create this festival where you play one of your records and its entirety, and so we chose the first record to play, and I go back and I look at videos and I am like a raise jing asshole in my in my vibe in the way I play, it's like on ten, you know. And I know it's like a certain sort of style I have. The It's it's just energetic frequency I think I got from Go Go everything really tight, you know, like the gus are pulsating tight and fast, like the temples are like whoa. And and so when I sat when we went to play it now, and it's just like I just don't even have that energy. I just don't even have that vibration wow anymore. And so I think it was a I had to had a sense of preservation in order to make it like I didn't want. The thing I couldn't stand is you played good for you know, being a woman. And I used to just crush me and I just eventually was like, nah, I'm good, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna play the best that's just so good that you don't say anything and so command. With such command, I want to hear nothing from you.

Yeah yeah, yeah, that's wild.

Yeah yeah, yeah, that's wild.

Thank god, that's over youth. Youth and collagen like really make you aggressive human being?

Thank god, that's over youth. Youth and collagen like really make you aggressive human being?

What do you do you? Where do you think that energy went? If you don't have that vibration anymore?

What do you do you? Where do you think that energy went? If you don't have that vibration anymore?

Oh, therapy and reconciling my traumas and a lot of weed.

Oh, therapy and reconciling my traumas and a lot of weed.

That'll help.

That'll help.

I smoke a lot of weed so much.

I smoke a lot of weed so much.

You know.

You know.

I read this interview with Martin Scorsese wh he was talking about when he first got it, first got out of film school, he had all the stuff he wanted to prove about what he could do, and then about three or four films in, it's like, just just tell a great story and tell it well. And I think that's just part of maturity as an artist.

I read this interview with Martin Scorsese wh he was talking about when he first got it, first got out of film school, he had all the stuff he wanted to prove about what he could do, and then about three or four films in, it's like, just just tell a great story and tell it well. And I think that's just part of maturity as an artist.

Yeah, I've read that by your last album with Maverick, with that, with the label you initially signed to, that you finally felt like you can make what you what you heard? Oh yeah, what can you explain what that? What that means? Oh?

Yeah, I've read that by your last album with Maverick, with that, with the label you initially signed to, that you finally felt like you can make what you what you heard? Oh yeah, what can you explain what that? What that means? Oh?

Because that's what got me the first record deal is that you you have your whole life to make your first record, right, and you're you're so confident in your ideas and that's what got the people to notice you. By the second and third people start telling you what's gonna what could help you be successful, and you can take it or leave it or can crush you. And after making three records that no one was happy with, it just snapped in me, like I have to remember, like you know, this gift is not for me, you know, I mean, it's I'm so blessed to have it, and I need to continue to wait for the transmissions and to be honest with the music because I rather fail doing what I was honest about. Then I jumped through all them hoops and made it different. And you still don't like me, or you still don't like it, you know. So all you have is your is just the feeling that I did my best. That's all I have. And what Don said is, eventually you know I'm not doing it. I eventually you realize you're not doing it for the collapse, and the people that really come to see you are looking for a hint of sincerity, just a little bit, because they pay I realize I pay money to go outside of myself for a good ninety minutes and watch someone do what they love. And so that's what I started to focus on.

Because that's what got me the first record deal is that you you have your whole life to make your first record, right, and you're you're so confident in your ideas and that's what got the people to notice you. By the second and third people start telling you what's gonna what could help you be successful, and you can take it or leave it or can crush you. And after making three records that no one was happy with, it just snapped in me, like I have to remember, like you know, this gift is not for me, you know, I mean, it's I'm so blessed to have it, and I need to continue to wait for the transmissions and to be honest with the music because I rather fail doing what I was honest about. Then I jumped through all them hoops and made it different. And you still don't like me, or you still don't like it, you know. So all you have is your is just the feeling that I did my best. That's all I have. And what Don said is, eventually you know I'm not doing it. I eventually you realize you're not doing it for the collapse, and the people that really come to see you are looking for a hint of sincerity, just a little bit, because they pay I realize I pay money to go outside of myself for a good ninety minutes and watch someone do what they love. And so that's what I started to focus on.

M I want to talk about those transmissions. Have you discovered a way to encourage them?

M I want to talk about those transmissions. Have you discovered a way to encourage them?

Yeah, I just I was I was fretting this interview for because I knew something would come up like that. I just I feel a hint of shame sometimes, but I pray. You know, I'm a believer, and the moments I have to myself are just and when I can hear my own thoughts, like I got rid of the phone, like I have like a type of flip phone, and I just I just try to create a space for myself to listen, and I really find that that helps creativity. And also I stop sometimes I just stop for months and don't do anything. You know, everything's so rapid. I'm old enough to remember when people made a record every three to four years. You know, it was only eight.

Yeah, I just I was I was fretting this interview for because I knew something would come up like that. I just I feel a hint of shame sometimes, but I pray. You know, I'm a believer, and the moments I have to myself are just and when I can hear my own thoughts, like I got rid of the phone, like I have like a type of flip phone, and I just I just try to create a space for myself to listen, and I really find that that helps creativity. And also I stop sometimes I just stop for months and don't do anything. You know, everything's so rapid. I'm old enough to remember when people made a record every three to four years. You know, it was only eight.

Songs, right, not seventy seven.

Songs, right, not seventy seven.

And so I just think, I know that's a reference, yeah that record.

And so I just think, I know that's a reference, yeah that record.

Both have American rec rooms now, by the way, too.

Both have American rec rooms now, by the way, too.

Oh yeah, yeah, yes, I love my virgo, my a virgo friend. Yeah. You just I don't know, I you just how do you do it? You tell me? It's like, how do you wait for you and you aid people in bringing, you know, things to fruition? How do you keep yourself buoyant? How do you stay interested in music where you're seen as someone not only are you planting the seeds, you're tilling the land, and you're also out there selling the product? Like, how do you maintain yeah, buoyancy?

Oh yeah, yeah, yes, I love my virgo, my a virgo friend. Yeah. You just I don't know, I you just how do you do it? You tell me? It's like, how do you wait for you and you aid people in bringing, you know, things to fruition? How do you keep yourself buoyant? How do you stay interested in music where you're seen as someone not only are you planting the seeds, you're tilling the land, and you're also out there selling the product? Like, how do you maintain yeah, buoyancy?

I draw inspiration from artists like you for real. You know, we've never really talked about it because we mostly limit ourselves to kind of almost musical small talk. And that's because I don't know how to approach you about what the essence of what you do because it's it's beyond. I can't describe it, and I don't know how to verbalize it. But I've been we've been doing. I do the same thing you do, produce records and play bass. But I don't know how you do what you do. Can't And it's not like it's happened once or twice. Every one of your records is just magnificent. You know how I feel about your records? You ever seen the pictures of a universe shot by the Hubble space telescope? Yes, I do follow this and you and you look at it and you get wait a minute, that little dot is a galaxy like the Milky Way, and we're looking at it one hundred million years ago because it's so far away and the colors are making That's how I feel about your records. I don't know how what you're plugged into, but I know I can't get there. But I've worked for a couple, just a couple other artists, you know. I think Wayne Shorter was one of those people. I think Bob Dylan is one of those people.

I draw inspiration from artists like you for real. You know, we've never really talked about it because we mostly limit ourselves to kind of almost musical small talk. And that's because I don't know how to approach you about what the essence of what you do because it's it's beyond. I can't describe it, and I don't know how to verbalize it. But I've been we've been doing. I do the same thing you do, produce records and play bass. But I don't know how you do what you do. Can't And it's not like it's happened once or twice. Every one of your records is just magnificent. You know how I feel about your records? You ever seen the pictures of a universe shot by the Hubble space telescope? Yes, I do follow this and you and you look at it and you get wait a minute, that little dot is a galaxy like the Milky Way, and we're looking at it one hundred million years ago because it's so far away and the colors are making That's how I feel about your records. I don't know how what you're plugged into, but I know I can't get there. But I've worked for a couple, just a couple other artists, you know. I think Wayne Shorter was one of those people. I think Bob Dylan is one of those people.

We love Bob Dylan.

We love Bob Dylan.

Your sonic vision and what you're able to convey through sound is us the equivalent of what he can do, you know, with words, And I don't know how you do it. It's just mind blown.

Your sonic vision and what you're able to convey through sound is us the equivalent of what he can do, you know, with words, And I don't know how you do it. It's just mind blown.

I appreciate you saying that. I will carry that with me today and when I have my losses, I will think of that. Take that out. Yeah. I just yeah, I'm just I have really good friends now too. I mean that helps a lot. And we listen to a lot of music, Like we just try to what are you listening to? And you DJ the dressing room tonight and just you know, just try to listen and I tell I've been having some students, which is really put you in a strange position because I'm not dogmatic, but the only thing I tell them, if you don't like yourself and like to spend time with yourself, you're not going to get to that creative space that you dream and hope for. You have to really like to sit with yourself and explore the instrument or where the tools you're using you have to spend you have to relate to them like and master them, like painting or any other medium of art.

I appreciate you saying that. I will carry that with me today and when I have my losses, I will think of that. Take that out. Yeah. I just yeah, I'm just I have really good friends now too. I mean that helps a lot. And we listen to a lot of music, Like we just try to what are you listening to? And you DJ the dressing room tonight and just you know, just try to listen and I tell I've been having some students, which is really put you in a strange position because I'm not dogmatic, but the only thing I tell them, if you don't like yourself and like to spend time with yourself, you're not going to get to that creative space that you dream and hope for. You have to really like to sit with yourself and explore the instrument or where the tools you're using you have to spend you have to relate to them like and master them, like painting or any other medium of art.

Yeah, that's a really great that's a really great point. Then alone time required to sit there and just go run something down hours at a time, you know, day in and day out, day after day.

Yeah, that's a really great that's a really great point. Then alone time required to sit there and just go run something down hours at a time, you know, day in and day out, day after day.

It requires a lot of a long time. It's hard to stomach sometimes. Yes, we'll be right back with more from Michelle and de yo Cello and a Browns. After the break, we're back with more from Michelle and deg yo Cello and a Browns.

It requires a lot of a long time. It's hard to stomach sometimes. Yes, we'll be right back with more from Michelle and de yo Cello and a Browns. After the break, we're back with more from Michelle and deg yo Cello and a Browns.

How's it? I mean, Abe's your drummer and your band my friend, your friend is my friend. It feels like you. It feels like you have like a like an actual like I know. The records are Michell's records. But it feels almost like you're creating within a band, you know.

How's it? I mean, Abe's your drummer and your band my friend, your friend is my friend. It feels like you. It feels like you have like a like an actual like I know. The records are Michell's records. But it feels almost like you're creating within a band, you know.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

How's it? How's it been playing with Abe?

How's it? How's it been playing with Abe?

And oh it's great. I had a low after playing with Chris Dave. I didn't think I'd ever have that sort of feeling with a drummer that I felt. I felt like we were somehow like vulcan mind meld with rhythmic experiences. But I was doing a like a setting in at Berkeley, doing a little workshop and I met Abe. He's one of three drummers, and I could just tell. I was just like, you don't really need to be here, and I'm going to figure that out. And it's funny the instructor, he was not the one she that that instructor felt strongly about. And I was just like, I know. And so him and I would play during that whole time, and I was just like, I'm calling it, I'm calling you for a gig, and I called him, and since that day, it's just I'm just like I'm growing. He teaches me so much in terms of rhythm and harmony, such an accomplished musician, and taught me so much as a person. Chris too, who I met at during Bitter, which was a very hard time, a record people didn't like. But he introduced me to t Rex and all these other amazing bands. I would have not come in contact with Jebn Brune, I mean, just a genius programmer and player. I just feel like I've met people where I feel like we're growing. We're not in a time like sometimes you have a band in that band is a time you know you did this together and you're going to keep doing that the same way for the rest of your life. Right, and we and this is the first time I'm like, are you gonna play the keyboard on this? I don't know, Maybe I'll play. Let's get some vibes happening. You know, everyone's open to change and growth, and we respect each other's individuality. And we've been through a lot together, both joyful and not so joyful. So there's a goodness, a good bond, that.

And oh it's great. I had a low after playing with Chris Dave. I didn't think I'd ever have that sort of feeling with a drummer that I felt. I felt like we were somehow like vulcan mind meld with rhythmic experiences. But I was doing a like a setting in at Berkeley, doing a little workshop and I met Abe. He's one of three drummers, and I could just tell. I was just like, you don't really need to be here, and I'm going to figure that out. And it's funny the instructor, he was not the one she that that instructor felt strongly about. And I was just like, I know. And so him and I would play during that whole time, and I was just like, I'm calling it, I'm calling you for a gig, and I called him, and since that day, it's just I'm just like I'm growing. He teaches me so much in terms of rhythm and harmony, such an accomplished musician, and taught me so much as a person. Chris too, who I met at during Bitter, which was a very hard time, a record people didn't like. But he introduced me to t Rex and all these other amazing bands. I would have not come in contact with Jebn Brune, I mean, just a genius programmer and player. I just feel like I've met people where I feel like we're growing. We're not in a time like sometimes you have a band in that band is a time you know you did this together and you're going to keep doing that the same way for the rest of your life. Right, and we and this is the first time I'm like, are you gonna play the keyboard on this? I don't know, Maybe I'll play. Let's get some vibes happening. You know, everyone's open to change and growth, and we respect each other's individuality. And we've been through a lot together, both joyful and not so joyful. So there's a goodness, a good bond, that.

Level of freedom, your your experience with with with with you guys now where it's like who's playing, who's playing? Well?

Level of freedom, your your experience with with with with you guys now where it's like who's playing, who's playing? Well?

How does that?

How does that?

How does that? How does that play out? Like when you're when you're writing, like do you are you? What do you? Does that has it impacted the way you write.

How does that? How does that play out? Like when you're when you're writing, like do you are you? What do you? Does that has it impacted the way you write.

Oh yeah, like Omnichord is a very special record because I had so much time off. You know, COVID was a life changing experience for me. I actually, I have a house in the woods, and I got to be in that house for long periods of time and just be with myself. And so I had some different instruments to work with, and we were working a lot on score, the four of us, the core group, We did like several TV shows and we made Yeah, we just made a lot of music together in a very compressed experience. So it changed the writing in the sense of like I have an idea, send it back, do this, do that, And I really wanted to get out of that, and so I collected a bunch of songs. But we went into the studio together to complete the writing. Like we knew that together things would It was just germination and then we'd all come together and things would come just start to sprout and grow.

Oh yeah, like Omnichord is a very special record because I had so much time off. You know, COVID was a life changing experience for me. I actually, I have a house in the woods, and I got to be in that house for long periods of time and just be with myself. And so I had some different instruments to work with, and we were working a lot on score, the four of us, the core group, We did like several TV shows and we made Yeah, we just made a lot of music together in a very compressed experience. So it changed the writing in the sense of like I have an idea, send it back, do this, do that, And I really wanted to get out of that, and so I collected a bunch of songs. But we went into the studio together to complete the writing. Like we knew that together things would It was just germination and then we'd all come together and things would come just start to sprout and grow.

Can you describe that a little more in depth? Like you come in with a rough idea in a session and just we just set up and start playing, and you pull out the good ideas and you keep refining it. How does that work.

Can you describe that a little more in depth? Like you come in with a rough idea in a session and just we just set up and start playing, and you pull out the good ideas and you keep refining it. How does that work.

Well.

Well.

First, I'll say I think that your demos are well on their own, like they're they're amazing, that they kind of it's all there somehow. And then you have you have a great ability of letting go and then trusting the people in the room to take your shell of an idea and make it their own. And I think that's the kind of the process. It's never really talked about like hey, I think it should be that you should play this drum beat or you should play these particular chords.

First, I'll say I think that your demos are well on their own, like they're they're amazing, that they kind of it's all there somehow. And then you have you have a great ability of letting go and then trusting the people in the room to take your shell of an idea and make it their own. And I think that's the kind of the process. It's never really talked about like hey, I think it should be that you should play this drum beat or you should play these particular chords.

It's just more like the feeling.

It's just more like the feeling.

It's like, let's try and tap into that feeling and how you would, you know, your your own version of that, Yeah, through your body?

It's like, let's try and tap into that feeling and how you would, you know, your your own version of that, Yeah, through your body?

Yeah, is that what you're listening for them when you get demos?

Yeah, is that what you're listening for them when you get demos?

Yeah, totally for sure.

Yeah, totally for sure.

It's just like what is the for instance, if it's like I'm trying to recreate a beat or something, I'm never Yeah, we're not trying to recreate out. We were just trying to like tap into the feeling of what the beat does or if it if the rhythm of it or maybe the lack of rhythm in it. So it's just like trying to you know, and like we're also a band, and like they can be conversations about where's the one, but that usually get to that if we get to that place, that's if we're trying to like quantify where it is. Usually that's not a good thing. So it's just like if you hear it there, that's fine. Also, if you get to know me, this is a facade.

It's just like what is the for instance, if it's like I'm trying to recreate a beat or something, I'm never Yeah, we're not trying to recreate out. We were just trying to like tap into the feeling of what the beat does or if it if the rhythm of it or maybe the lack of rhythm in it. So it's just like trying to you know, and like we're also a band, and like they can be conversations about where's the one, but that usually get to that if we get to that place, that's if we're trying to like quantify where it is. Usually that's not a good thing. So it's just like if you hear it there, that's fine. Also, if you get to know me, this is a facade.

I don't really talk a lot, and I'm like, not, we're never all going to get together, Like let's talk about where the music goes. I'm going for that tone and you know, not that person. I'll just I have to trust the musician or I get a music, I'm getting a part that someone's trying to do something, and I'd rather you be inspired by the part to do something, not do my part, because that's how it feels as being the so called leader, and I think that's kind of limiting to the song and the Omnichoor Real book was my hope, like when my father gave me that book on that first gig, was to create things that musicians like to play, like their foundational understandings of harmony and a rhythm and a time. But you have to add something to it, you know, to make it feel good for us. And that's how I approached the last record, you know, just like here's some ideas, but you know, A broke some songs and then and we just all sort of come together and create.

I don't really talk a lot, and I'm like, not, we're never all going to get together, Like let's talk about where the music goes. I'm going for that tone and you know, not that person. I'll just I have to trust the musician or I get a music, I'm getting a part that someone's trying to do something, and I'd rather you be inspired by the part to do something, not do my part, because that's how it feels as being the so called leader, and I think that's kind of limiting to the song and the Omnichoor Real book was my hope, like when my father gave me that book on that first gig, was to create things that musicians like to play, like their foundational understandings of harmony and a rhythm and a time. But you have to add something to it, you know, to make it feel good for us. And that's how I approached the last record, you know, just like here's some ideas, but you know, A broke some songs and then and we just all sort of come together and create.

You know, it feels communal.

You know, it feels communal.

It's communal community and a lot of ruthless editing.

It's communal community and a lot of ruthless editing.

Show as a master editor.

Show as a master editor.

Ruthless. I'm a ruthless editor.

Ruthless. I'm a ruthless editor.

Do you actually sit behind it? Push people away and behind the computer.

Do you actually sit behind it? Push people away and behind the computer.

I make people leave so I can sit and listen because the talking while you're listening you can't. I can't deal with, Like, if we're gonna listen to the track back, we're gonna listen, and I try not to listen, which I've just I just worked on a project that's really serious jazz, and I really struggle when we come back to the listening and they only listen to their part and they don't listen as a whole. You can't tell me what the bass player play. You're just listening to yourself. And it becomes my topic. And so that's my only other thing. Like when we listen, we're going to listen, and you can tell because we know each other. When we'll go like let's do it again, we just immediately go back and do it again, or we go like take a break, just step away from it and just let it sit for a minute instead of finding a problem. Because sometimes I'm learning too after time. I mean, are you really nitpicking? Or can you trust yourself now? After you've after thirty years of making records? At what point do you go like, that's a good take. And luckily I have this a younger person who's like he'll just tell you like, no, I'm not that's great, I'm good. I'm not doing it again, you know Chris too. I have people around me like no, that's good. Stop wow, wow, And I'm like, you're right, Like did on that jazz.

I make people leave so I can sit and listen because the talking while you're listening you can't. I can't deal with, Like, if we're gonna listen to the track back, we're gonna listen, and I try not to listen, which I've just I just worked on a project that's really serious jazz, and I really struggle when we come back to the listening and they only listen to their part and they don't listen as a whole. You can't tell me what the bass player play. You're just listening to yourself. And it becomes my topic. And so that's my only other thing. Like when we listen, we're going to listen, and you can tell because we know each other. When we'll go like let's do it again, we just immediately go back and do it again, or we go like take a break, just step away from it and just let it sit for a minute instead of finding a problem. Because sometimes I'm learning too after time. I mean, are you really nitpicking? Or can you trust yourself now? After you've after thirty years of making records? At what point do you go like, that's a good take. And luckily I have this a younger person who's like he'll just tell you like, no, I'm not that's great, I'm good. I'm not doing it again, you know Chris too. I have people around me like no, that's good. Stop wow, wow, And I'm like, you're right, Like did on that jazz.

Project you were talking about, Yeah, did you get over that hump of everyone just listening to their Well.

Project you were talking about, Yeah, did you get over that hump of everyone just listening to their Well.

I just observe the energy I just had. Now I would never have. I just observe. I watched them and I listen, and then I have to figure out how to or communicate something that perhaps they could do differently, you know. But I'm learning. It's a different time now from the conversation. We were having this conversation about like legacy and like you have to learn from the past and you study a certain thing to get good at it. But I'm encountering a lot of youth who are very studied, and I just wonder. I'm now asking the question, how do I get you to let go of perfectionism or some idea of how something should be so you can flail and within that find something else. And that's my only dogma. I remember doing sessions with Shaka Khan, and I used to just be enamored with my friend David Gamson, and she would sing like ten lemons, I mean, twenty fifty lemons, incredible lemons too, like preserved lemons, just and then she now and then then then she'd be then she'd be like I feel it, I feel something in that one, and then she'd got to build. But there's never this like yeah, she's just like you know sometimes you know, it's.

I just observe the energy I just had. Now I would never have. I just observe. I watched them and I listen, and then I have to figure out how to or communicate something that perhaps they could do differently, you know. But I'm learning. It's a different time now from the conversation. We were having this conversation about like legacy and like you have to learn from the past and you study a certain thing to get good at it. But I'm encountering a lot of youth who are very studied, and I just wonder. I'm now asking the question, how do I get you to let go of perfectionism or some idea of how something should be so you can flail and within that find something else. And that's my only dogma. I remember doing sessions with Shaka Khan, and I used to just be enamored with my friend David Gamson, and she would sing like ten lemons, I mean, twenty fifty lemons, incredible lemons too, like preserved lemons, just and then she now and then then then she'd be then she'd be like I feel it, I feel something in that one, and then she'd got to build. But there's never this like yeah, she's just like you know sometimes you know, it's.

Fun, unbothered by it.

Fun, unbothered by it.

I'm unbothered by I don't care who's listening. Yeah, like, yeah, I'm not afraid who's listening. I can just I might make like That's how I'm gonna find where I want to be.

I'm unbothered by I don't care who's listening. Yeah, like, yeah, I'm not afraid who's listening. I can just I might make like That's how I'm gonna find where I want to be.

If you're producing an artist as opposed to being the artist, how does it change your approach to the.

If you're producing an artist as opposed to being the artist, how does it change your approach to the.

Studio depends on what kind of music. It depends on what kind of music. When it's like a production where it's like we're programming, it's like we're writing vocal part, you know, like a just a certain sort of pop R and B thing, it's really a detailed interaction. Yeah, minutia, I gotta get to a lot of just getting to getting the person comfortable. But I'm dying to do more sessions where like, let's make a record in three days, we're just gonna play live. We're gonna have one day of rehearsal, we're gonna play it. You're gonna trust yourself. And I find a lot of people aren't really up for that. Nope, But I just try to be. And I guess it's my age and coming to understand myself as a two spirit person. I think there's part of me that understands competition, the need for self expression as a musician, and that wanting to soar, And then the other part of me understands, like, you are giving of yourself. How can I make this a good experience for you? Sorry? Makes me cry, Like how can I help you make something and feel really good about it? And I'm glad I'm learning to balance those two natures. One that's like I hear you, man, let's let's hit beast mode, right, yeah, like you're here with your brothers and sisters and you listen hit beast mode. But then there's the part of me that there has to be someone there who's like, how you feeling Okay? You know you need to take a break, You need to walk away from that, Just walk away from that. Yeah, let's try and let's try another color.

Studio depends on what kind of music. It depends on what kind of music. When it's like a production where it's like we're programming, it's like we're writing vocal part, you know, like a just a certain sort of pop R and B thing, it's really a detailed interaction. Yeah, minutia, I gotta get to a lot of just getting to getting the person comfortable. But I'm dying to do more sessions where like, let's make a record in three days, we're just gonna play live. We're gonna have one day of rehearsal, we're gonna play it. You're gonna trust yourself. And I find a lot of people aren't really up for that. Nope, But I just try to be. And I guess it's my age and coming to understand myself as a two spirit person. I think there's part of me that understands competition, the need for self expression as a musician, and that wanting to soar, And then the other part of me understands, like, you are giving of yourself. How can I make this a good experience for you? Sorry? Makes me cry, Like how can I help you make something and feel really good about it? And I'm glad I'm learning to balance those two natures. One that's like I hear you, man, let's let's hit beast mode, right, yeah, like you're here with your brothers and sisters and you listen hit beast mode. But then there's the part of me that there has to be someone there who's like, how you feeling Okay? You know you need to take a break, You need to walk away from that, Just walk away from that. Yeah, let's try and let's try another color.

You know.

You know.

I'm not there to tear you down, which I come from the eighties and nineties where the kind of the producer was there to poke the bear. You know, there's this idea that this should be like a like a tussle a little bit. And I don't think I want to be that. I want to be the mixture of Rudy Van Gelder, Craig Street, Brian Enoa, I read from Man and Mary Oliver, you know, and and also not be afraid of the dark, like like there's a writer I love named Sheila Hetty, and just try to get to you in a way where you're just not saying like singing and dancing, you're I need I want you to have an experience at the music.

I'm not there to tear you down, which I come from the eighties and nineties where the kind of the producer was there to poke the bear. You know, there's this idea that this should be like a like a tussle a little bit. And I don't think I want to be that. I want to be the mixture of Rudy Van Gelder, Craig Street, Brian Enoa, I read from Man and Mary Oliver, you know, and and also not be afraid of the dark, like like there's a writer I love named Sheila Hetty, and just try to get to you in a way where you're just not saying like singing and dancing, you're I need I want you to have an experience at the music.

After this last break, we'll be back with the rest of our conversation with Michelle and degio Cello and a Browns. Here's the rest of our conversation. I mean, maybe we can talk about some of those people, what those people mean to you. Rudy Van Gelder is a name that doesn't get.

After this last break, we'll be back with the rest of our conversation with Michelle and degio Cello and a Browns. Here's the rest of our conversation. I mean, maybe we can talk about some of those people, what those people mean to you. Rudy Van Gelder is a name that doesn't get.

Talked about Sonic and the Blade. He's Sonic in the Blade ultimately ruthless editor Craig Street creates an environment for you where you can do your best. You know, Don was people person, wright studio, sonic genius, arrangement enhancer. That's what I've found out a couple of things about you know, there's that because that's a part of production I feel is lost, the arrangement aspect. You can have a great melody, great head, kill it, but who's gonna help you put that in a put the steak on a nice plate instead of the trash can lid. It's a great steak still, right, But how you serve it to me is gonna That's gonna affect me. There's like, there's just so many styles of production too. Yeah, he's producing in this period of time as a young person. I think it means different things. It means I made the whole track for you and you sing on.

Talked about Sonic and the Blade. He's Sonic in the Blade ultimately ruthless editor Craig Street creates an environment for you where you can do your best. You know, Don was people person, wright studio, sonic genius, arrangement enhancer. That's what I've found out a couple of things about you know, there's that because that's a part of production I feel is lost, the arrangement aspect. You can have a great melody, great head, kill it, but who's gonna help you put that in a put the steak on a nice plate instead of the trash can lid. It's a great steak still, right, But how you serve it to me is gonna That's gonna affect me. There's like, there's just so many styles of production too. Yeah, he's producing in this period of time as a young person. I think it means different things. It means I made the whole track for you and you sing on.

It, and I think it's good.

It, and I think it's good.

Budgets too, I had we had budgets to go where we.

Budgets too, I had we had budgets to go where we.

Could small, small budgets. In these days, everyone can make something that sounds great in a room by themselves.

Could small, small budgets. In these days, everyone can make something that sounds great in a room by themselves.

But I don't envy him because I also grew up with deadlines. I made music when there's like you mix that in two days. That's done. I got to take the tape off and turn the dobs back and zero the board so I can do the next mix. There's no going back, because going back costs a whole mix. I feel like there's so many like takes. You don't have to Yes, you can piece me together. I don't have to be able to play through the whole track. That's a difference, and I think that affects how things feel.

But I don't envy him because I also grew up with deadlines. I made music when there's like you mix that in two days. That's done. I got to take the tape off and turn the dobs back and zero the board so I can do the next mix. There's no going back, because going back costs a whole mix. I feel like there's so many like takes. You don't have to Yes, you can piece me together. I don't have to be able to play through the whole track. That's a difference, and I think that affects how things feel.

Are you too young to have worked with analog tape?

Are you too young to have worked with analog tape?

Oh? Yeah, I totally know how to cut tape. I went to engineering school with Bob yespec. He mixed sailing. Christopher Crust one of my favorite. But yeah, I'm a luddite. I'm not keeping up. I'm really one of those people like I missed the time it takes for the tape to rewind, so you're just not listening to each section. I love, like, go to Bar forty and you're just on forty to forty three. Go to Bar ten and we'll stay there, and I'm just like, there's no song to me anymore. I'm like, I've lost all contacts. He'll tell you, I'll be just like, I'll come back when y'all are done, just like I have no idea what's going on. You know, I don't who listens that way. And I'm one of those people. I want to make songs for the people who are in their prius and they trying to get to work or get to the charger before anyone else, and they just want to happen good time, and it sounds good. It feels good, you know.

Oh? Yeah, I totally know how to cut tape. I went to engineering school with Bob yespec. He mixed sailing. Christopher Crust one of my favorite. But yeah, I'm a luddite. I'm not keeping up. I'm really one of those people like I missed the time it takes for the tape to rewind, so you're just not listening to each section. I love, like, go to Bar forty and you're just on forty to forty three. Go to Bar ten and we'll stay there, and I'm just like, there's no song to me anymore. I'm like, I've lost all contacts. He'll tell you, I'll be just like, I'll come back when y'all are done, just like I have no idea what's going on. You know, I don't who listens that way. And I'm one of those people. I want to make songs for the people who are in their prius and they trying to get to work or get to the charger before anyone else, and they just want to happen good time, and it sounds good. It feels good, you know.

The new record feels really good, really really good. I appreciate that it's a lot of you. I text and abe like a couple of nights. Gods, Like, there's so much. There's so many different singers too, on the record, like you and Jade Hicks, who I don't know who Jaye Hicks is. That sounds incredible to guests.

The new record feels really good, really really good. I appreciate that it's a lot of you. I text and abe like a couple of nights. Gods, Like, there's so much. There's so many different singers too, on the record, like you and Jade Hicks, who I don't know who Jaye Hicks is. That sounds incredible to guests.

Guess you should know who Jay Nicks is. Yeah. They are a family of singers, Justin Hicks, Jade Hicks and Canetia Miller, the Slates. Yeah, and they're from Indiana. They are preachers children and but that's the other thing. Sorry if I'm long winded. I was given so many great opportunities by other musicians, and I really feel the omni chord is all is that for me. I think they are some of the greatest songwriters and singers. There's Tandese mess Why it's from South African, who I think is a genius. I just produced something that's coming out with her soon. I mean, yeah, I just want to share all that I've been able to experience as a musician, travel and playing for people. And that's what all the vocalists means for me, Like no one does anything alone. And also I'm not a dinosaur. I can see the meteor coming and as I watch other musicians age and change, because I'm fifty six and there's no way I'm trying to be up there singing and dancing for the rest of my life. And I just want to be a good springboard for other people to do their craft and do their thing and it's a blessing. I learned so much. There's an amazing song I think is I think it's one it's on the Dylan level lyrically, which is Gatsby, which is written by some more Pender Hues, and like hearing that song, it just it's that feeling you have when you're like God, it's saying everything I wish I could say. And I hadn't had that feeling since hearing Prince when I was sixteen and I heard that song and I was like, you know, and that's my way. I think he's a genius and I want more people to be exposed to him. And then it shows the arrangement, talents and gifts of Corey Henry who plays on Who Takes, because if you listen to both version, that's what I'm hoping, like here where he took the harmony, you know, has Joel Ross where I'm like virtuostic. But I really loved setting him into a more African diaspora with the butriimba, the vibes on a few of the tunes where it's not like people are listening for his blazing it's just like, look how he rhythmically is fitting here and his song writing improvisation. You know, I just wanted to be like people do a lot of things Josh john Johnson. Yeah, just if I may talk about him. I was here in LA to score for a TV show and I lived here months at a time, months like and I would go to the ETA to see Josh club in.

Guess you should know who Jay Nicks is. Yeah. They are a family of singers, Justin Hicks, Jade Hicks and Canetia Miller, the Slates. Yeah, and they're from Indiana. They are preachers children and but that's the other thing. Sorry if I'm long winded. I was given so many great opportunities by other musicians, and I really feel the omni chord is all is that for me. I think they are some of the greatest songwriters and singers. There's Tandese mess Why it's from South African, who I think is a genius. I just produced something that's coming out with her soon. I mean, yeah, I just want to share all that I've been able to experience as a musician, travel and playing for people. And that's what all the vocalists means for me, Like no one does anything alone. And also I'm not a dinosaur. I can see the meteor coming and as I watch other musicians age and change, because I'm fifty six and there's no way I'm trying to be up there singing and dancing for the rest of my life. And I just want to be a good springboard for other people to do their craft and do their thing and it's a blessing. I learned so much. There's an amazing song I think is I think it's one it's on the Dylan level lyrically, which is Gatsby, which is written by some more Pender Hues, and like hearing that song, it just it's that feeling you have when you're like God, it's saying everything I wish I could say. And I hadn't had that feeling since hearing Prince when I was sixteen and I heard that song and I was like, you know, and that's my way. I think he's a genius and I want more people to be exposed to him. And then it shows the arrangement, talents and gifts of Corey Henry who plays on Who Takes, because if you listen to both version, that's what I'm hoping, like here where he took the harmony, you know, has Joel Ross where I'm like virtuostic. But I really loved setting him into a more African diaspora with the butriimba, the vibes on a few of the tunes where it's not like people are listening for his blazing it's just like, look how he rhythmically is fitting here and his song writing improvisation. You know, I just wanted to be like people do a lot of things Josh john Johnson. Yeah, just if I may talk about him. I was here in LA to score for a TV show and I lived here months at a time, months like and I would go to the ETA to see Josh club in.

Holland Park be unfortunately not around anymore.

Holland Park be unfortunately not around anymore.

But rest in peace, I know, right, that's really sad. I know that that was my suoker, that was my like. I would just go there and I know I would hear something interesting and I heard him play. And then that one day I was watching TV and he was the keyboard player for Bridges Beyond Bridges and there was just all these things coming on. It was so musical, and I wanted a producer because also eventually you need someone to help you. I'm lucky I have real friends with like, let's get some help. And I wanted someone who we all respected and loved and who knew us. And Josh Johnson said yes. And that was like a game changer because he brought something none of us had, and he wasn't attached to us and attached to me being something.

But rest in peace, I know, right, that's really sad. I know that that was my suoker, that was my like. I would just go there and I know I would hear something interesting and I heard him play. And then that one day I was watching TV and he was the keyboard player for Bridges Beyond Bridges and there was just all these things coming on. It was so musical, and I wanted a producer because also eventually you need someone to help you. I'm lucky I have real friends with like, let's get some help. And I wanted someone who we all respected and loved and who knew us. And Josh Johnson said yes. And that was like a game changer because he brought something none of us had, and he wasn't attached to us and attached to me being something.

What was it that he brought.

What was it that he brought.

Openness, clarity, virtuosity, and harmony and melodic sonic textures that I probably wouldn't have got to on the sacks. He allowed me to bring Oliver Lakes. Oliver can compose. He can't play anymore because of Parkinson's, and I felt Josh had a similar spirit in essence of heart. But also he could take the charts and bring them to life.