Hello everyone, it's Saga and Jetty. Crystal is already on her way back to DC, but I wanted to make sure that those of you who are new here know what we are all about at breaking Points. Our mission is to create a new media which aims to make everybody hate each other less and the corrupt ruling class more. Joe Rogan has been a formative force on both of us, and we are so lucky to have his support when we left the Hill and became one hundred percent independent of the corporate media. Every Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, Crystal and I do a show which is breaking down all of the breaking points. Do you guys get that one in American society which the corporate media is going to refuse to tell you? Now? Look clips of the show. They're available on YouTube one hundred percent free, same thing with the audio for free as breaks on anywhere you guys get your podcasts. But for those of you who want to help support our mission, you get the full uncut show delivered to your inbox one hour early. You get to listen to the free show completely uncut as a podcast, and you get exclusive long form interviews like the one you are about to hear with the great Joe Rogan himself become a premium subscriber today at breakingpoints dot com which is in the description, and you can hear future awesome episodes like this one. Support our work at breakingpoints dot com today. We love you all so much, and with that, enjoy the show. All right, all right, gotty Joe, Yes, thank you so much for letting us turn the tables on you. My please appreciate it here Joe get ready, oh no, so appropriate for our show. We want to start by asking you, like, how do you think about your political philosophy and who do you consider to be some of the influences on how you think about those things. My political philosophy is very mixed, right. It's like I I I like a lot of different people's ideas, but ultimately, all I really want is what's better for people. You know, I don't really have a vested interest in business. I'm not looking to like protect assets or anything weird. And I want people to have freedom, so in all ways, you know, And I think that when I look at politics, I look at like these utopian concepts about like what's possible, and then I look at what's what we have going on right now, And you know, I wonder, Joe, what are some of the formative political experiences of your life. Well, I mean, I remember the first time I ever really got interested in politics was when Ronald Riggan couldn't remember whether or not he sold arms to Iran. Iran contract. Yeah, I was like twenty one years old. Twenty one years old, and I remember thinking like, what what is happening? Because I always thought of presidents as you know, you have a leader, and this leader is trying to do the best for the country, and we all respect the office of the president, and back then that was really the case. Like back then in the nineteen eighties, there was way less inflammatory rhetoric. There was a lot of people that didn't like Reagan, but the level of I don't like Reagan was never like the level of I don't like Trump right or now currently Obama or Biden rather is senile, Like there's a disrespect of Biden that didn't exist back then. And as a young man trying to figure out what was going on in the world, seeing that there's this guy who's clearly lying about selling weapons to someone who hates it, there was a guy named Jimmy Tingle, He's a hilarious comedian out of Boston, and he had a great bit about this that he would do in a heavy Boston accent. He goes, mister President, if you ever sell arms to people who hate us in the future, jot it down. He goes, put it on a posting note. Stick it on your refrigerator. Do you know what? Jimmy a great political comedian. It was him and Barry Krimins and Jimmy Cretico. There was a few of these guys that were like really politically aware comics, Barry Crimins in particular, who was really the head of the Like if there was a godfather of Boston comedy, it was Barry Crimins because he was the most intelligent, he was the most well read, the most politically aware, and he would be involved in a lot of political demonstrations and all these different things. And he was kind of the guy who kept the Boston comedians honest, he kept them from being hacks, and he was just a very very politically aware guy. And Jimmy Tingle was aligned with him. He was one of those guys as well who initially started as just a regular comic and then became much more of a political comic and then ultimately became a guy. I don't think he does really comedy shows as much as he does like one man shows, but tingles tingles bits about it made me think about it a lot. And then watching you know, the Oliver North thing on television and the contras of the Nicaraguas and all that stuff, and then eventually when I did the podcast later getting to interview Rick Ross, the real Rick Ross, not the rapper, the real Rick Ross, who the rapper named himself after, who was the guy who was selling coke in South Central making millions and millions of dollars to fund the contrast. And he didn't know, He had no idea what was going on. He had no idea. He thought he was just like so slick that he could stay operated. He literally did not know that he was being that they were allowing him to do this. And so when you pulled that thread like from that Reagan moment, was that like led to more skepticism of politicians, led for you to think that they're all liars or it's corrupt or sort of like where did that thread lead? Well? I think it's you know, when you're a twenty year old, twenty one year old person. Your brain's not really fully formed, so you think a lot of like scrambled thoughts. And I think I was too busy with my own life to spend too much time thinking about politics. But I was super aware that it's not what I thought it was, which was like one of the themes of my life, like as I got older, more aware like, oh, everybody pretends that this makes sense. This doesn't make any sense, Like, oh, everybody pretends that there's a system in place. It's like really like it's it's well meaning, and it's really fair, and it's a it's going to benefit everybody's that's It took a while to slowly unpeel the onion, you know, And that was probably one of the first things was seeing Reagan say that it was Reagan sort of like spoiled the illusions so obviously bullshit. People always ask they're like, what does Joe believe, And I'm like, look, I think it's like a skepticism of power. That's like the bedrock thing. And so Reagan was the genesis that because if like I to throw a thread through all like your takes on politics, it's always something along the lines of I'm not sure if I believe what that person is saying. Yeah, like, is that where it comes from? He was the first guy that I realized was the president but also full of shit. I was like, It's a seminal moment, honestly for me. I remember, right, yeah, I remember watching there was something on television about Nixon about how you know, Watergate and whoh my god, he you know, bugged the the opposition and what a terrible person. But then you know, different people came along, and Gerald Ford was this bumbling guy, and then Jimmy Carter was like this really sweet guy but couldn't really get the job done in terms of like getting the hostages released from Iran. Yeah, and then all of a sudden, Reagan comes along and it's all, you know, win one for the Gipper, and everybody's all raw, raw America. And then you know, this was all when I was young, and as I was twenty twenty one, the whole Nicaragua Contra thing and the Sandinistas and watching that on televis and going, what the hell is going on? This is the president? The president? He fucking remembers, I never think of that. He remembers he's lying. Maybe maybe he didn't honestly because he was getting Alzheimer's, but most likely remember now he remember. Is it uncomfortable for you? How much unintentional power you have in the political sphere? Yeah, it's weird. It's totally unintentional. That's why it's weird. It was there's no planning of any of this. It's just talking to people and then all of a sudden, like, I still don't understand why it's so popular. I don't get it. I know a lot of other people do the same thing. I'm like, why is this fucking thing still number one? Well, let's seize that out then, Because you invented the long form podcast game, there are a lot of people who followed you into the game. What do you think they're doing wrong relative to you? Like what are you doing right? Like? What what is the secret sauce of JR? I don't know so well, then what do you see other things? I don't think about it too much? What do you see other people doing that wrong? Because people ask me, They're like, well, you've been on Rogan like he says he just shows up, And I'm like, yeah, he might say that, but it's very clear to me that you're an extremely like, a very good practitioner of conversation, knowing when to interject, knowing when to stay silent, knowing when to move something forward, knowing when to bring something around, being like, oh, I'm familiar with this person, let me interject this this at this time. It may seem artless, but it's definitely not so like. Is that something that you learned. Is it a comedian skill, because I see I listen to some comedy podcasts, and frankly, they're not as good summer decent. When I see you, I see somebody endless curiosity. Is it innate in your personality? Is it a learned phenomenon. It's both. I've always been curious, but I've learned how to be more effectively curious as I've gotten older. This podcast has been a massive education for me, an unintended accidental education. The fact that I've been able to talk to so many interesting and intelligent people and get their perspectives and just sit across from them uninterrupted for hours at a time and get to see how their brain works, and then to consider my own brain. And then you know, in the beginning, there's a lot of bad podcasts. They didn't go that well. I wasn't that good at it, and I didn't think First of all, I didn't think anybody was listening. I remember the moment I realized people were listening. I was at a sold out show at the Chicago Theater and I was on stage and I was doing this bit and it had something to do with the podcast, and I said, how many guys listen to the podcast? And the place went ye oh, maybe twenty eleven. Whoa. So it's like two years in. That's what Because I'm thinking in the podcast as a podcast historian or whatever. That was like the Mark Marin era, right, Like that's when I remember Mark Marin was like a thing and I was like, what is going on with Mark? Like Obama went on Mark Marine, which was like crazy, and I remember being like, man, there's something going on in this this space. But then it's like you not only clips to Marin, like you became this probably this, I would say, one of the single most influential people in American life. And so like, when do you think that transition happened for you? I know you haven't changed your your like affect or anything, but like when do you think that was what? I'm sure? Yeah, does it get into your does it? You were saying like you don't think about why it's successful. Is that sort of intentional? Yes, because I feel like part of why what continues to be compelling is that you don't bring to it all of this weight of like a lot of people are listening. I gotta be really careful and I gotta really watch what I which can be beautiful thinking, I can also get you in trouble at times. But is that sort of like lack of digging into what's made it successful and the type of impact it could have or does have? Is that an intentional strategy to keep it kind of what it is? It's not an intentional strategy. It's probably a survival technique because if I did stop and think, it's like if I read all Twitter mentions, I'd probably go fucking crazy. Right If I just put out of one tenth and I had to stop reading because I was going fucking crazy. You can't do it. Yeah, And if I, if I paid attention to all of it, I wouldn't be able to do any of the things that I do because then I wouldn't be able to think about those things, because I'd be thinking about my impact or my influence, or what I did wrong or what I did right, or you know, all the people like that I shoul probably lean into that. I'd be thinking about all these different things instead of My commitment is to just do the best job that I can always do my best, and if it's something that requires some sort of you know, research, like if I have an important subject that I don't understand it too much, I'll read someone's book, or I'll watch documentaries, or I'll do something to get myself prepared for it, or like I love things like the UFO subjects because I don't have to do any preparation. I do a little bit, but it's like, I know, you got that subject kind of logged down. I'm dialed into it, but I don't. I don't think it would help me if I thought about the impact of the show. And I also don't think that I could do it the way I do it because I think, like I think normally, if someone had reached the kind of amount of exposure that I have and you were really hyper aware of it, you'd start to protect what you've accumulated to it, right you, Yeah, but when you protect it, then it stops being what it is. And I think that's one of things that freaks people out about me is that I talk wild. I talk wild shit like a comic that has like ten thousand people listening, but it's ten million, where it's yeah, where you have nothing to lose, but you actually have everything to lose. But I kind of don't. I kind of do, but I kind of don't, right, you know, because it's like I'm not a bad person. So like when I'm doing this of a if I say something wrong, I can always apologize. If I'm incorrect about something, I can correct it, but is always to be good. So I don't know how much I really have to lose because I'm financially independent. So like that's a big one that holds people back, right, A big one that holds people back is financial influence, you know, the influence of executives or the influence of advertisers. And I've lost advertisers because of shows, and it's like, good luck, you don't care. It doesn't If I would do that, I would have considered doing the podcast for no money. I thought about that in the future. I'm like, maybe they'll come a time where I just no longer have any ads, you know, because I'm like, you know, like maybe that would be the ultimate way, because like, if someone wants to cancel you, one of the things that they do is they contact your ad they mass email campaigns and it doesn't work, but it works with some right, But I have a backlog of people trying to be advertisers, so like generally if one drops off, there's always something. It's funny. That's part of the reason that we went subscription first is that we were like, you know what you know when you're doing news, and especially in the beginning, they're like, we need to be able to rely on our people. But something you said it was really interesting during our podcast. You said, and you talked enough people, you can figure out whether they're telling the truth or not. So, how do you know when somebody's full of shit? Like you've talked thousands of people, Like, how do you know if somebody's full of shit or not? Whenever you're talking about you don't really know, right, you kind of get a sense, like you get a sense of whether or not a person is being genuine and sometimes you're doing jiu jitsu with them, right, Like moving them in a certain direction, seeing how they respond. You're testing their ego, right, You're testing there, You're challenging there. But maybe interrupt them on purpose, you know, maybe give them a little nudge, like if you can concerned they're like you try to like see if they push back, like see where they're at. You get a sense of a human you know, like you get if you get around so many people so often and you have so many conversations, you recognize patterns and I think the brain sort of picks up on them. But at the end of the day, I ultimately don't really know if someone's lying to you. Some people are just really good at lying. Have you had a situation where you had someone on and after the factor were like, mmm, upon reflection, maybe that person was full of shit? Yes, yes, definitely, well yeah, no question, yeah for sure. Yeah, and some of them have been full of shit. Yeah. When you say that, you try that your goal is just to do a good job, How do you define that? The smoothest conversation I can where people don't get uncomfortable listening. I also listened to a podcast recently and it was a friend of mine's podcast, and he doesn't have the people wear headphones. And one of the things that I tell people when you have two or more guests, you must have headphones because then people recognize when they're talking over each other because you're very right. Actually it happened when we were talking, yes, right, yeah, because when you hear your voice at the same level you hear that person's voice, then it becomes painfully obvious when you guys are and it's like, right, we just did three and a half hours, right, and it's this weird dance we're doing where you know, we all have something to say and it's kind of exciting, right, very exciting. We're talking about all these like really intense subjects and it's really stimulating and you never know like when to jump in when and we're like letting each other. We were all really good dance partners. It was really fun. Yeah, but sometimes it's not. And this, my friends that I was listening to, was not a good and I'm calling them afterwards. I'm gonna say, hey, bro, you gotta get headphones. So what makes you walk out of this room and go, man, there was a fucking great episode And then what makes you walk out of here and be like gosh, shit, I should have done something better. Like what is You don't have to name people necessarily, but what do you want to do? Yes, smoothness of absorption right, like whether or not it's easily absorbed into your mind, you're not, You're not uncomfortable. It doesn't feel gross like sometimes people. Sometimes people say things and even if they're honest, even if it's an honest, true thing, it'll sound braggy or it'll sound hyperbolic. You know, it'll sound maybe like disingenuously. Uh you could like you could fake humility and people pick up on that too. They don't like that either. That's gross. Right, Well, so this is funny though, because you're like, I don't think about it, but everything you're saying, you're the greatest audience advocate I've heard. So when people ask me about podcasting, I'm like, it's not about you, Like sometimes it is, but it's really not. And it's like you're always having to think about the people who are listening, So like, how do you do that? Like when you're talking about when you see somebody do something, you're like, man, people at home are gonna hate this, Like do you think about that type of stuff? When you're talking to people. Sometimes I do, Like sometimes I'm in the middle of talking to somebody and they're just blurting out nonsense. I'm like, oh God, what have I done? This one sucks A few of those. I had one, you know, not recently, but within the last few months, and I walked out. I looked at JAMMI that wasn't a good one. Yeah, just because sometimes people you take a chance. Like a lot of these authors and professors, I've never spoken a word to that, right, or have I heard them speak. A lot of people, I've just read their stuff and maybe I'll listen to an audiobook where an actor was reading it, and you don't know how good they're going to be. Sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised, and sometimes it's like it's awkward. Yeah, you know. I mean we have the same experience, but generally we're doing ten minute segments, so it's like less of a risk. You're not making an hour plus commitment to this person. You mentioned actually with us that you are very self critical person. So do you go back, do you rewatch the episodes? You don't do any of that. Do you know in your head? What are like, what are the type of thoughts that I'll go through your head or what are the things that you're looking for thinking about or that would stick with you, Like I should have done that different. Given the people enough space is big, like letting them talk, like you know, there's always this urge to talk, you know when two people are talking, to get excited and these subjects are they're they're stimulating, right, and you want to talk. So you got to give people the you you want to sort of first of all, you want to make them welcome, and you want to kind of caress the conversation. You know, you don't want to beat on it. You want to like kind of like like like let's, uh, let's figure out a way to make you the most comfortable. Let's figure out a way to get the most out of you. And then also you have to have I think you have to have genuine curiosity, because I think we can all pick up on artificial curiosity. You can pick up on oh that's interesting, and you're like, yeah, it's late night TV hosts. Yeah the worst it's crazy. It's so clunky and fake, and it's so air quotes professional. And the thing about podcasts is you're professionally unprofessional because you're really just having a conversation, and if you you're doing it well, you're making these people feel like you're just you're talking to someone who cares. You're talking to someone who cares about what and you really the only way to do that is to actually care, like you really want to care about what this person is saying and thinking. So it actually reminded me because I always, ever, for the years I've listened to you, it's always been very clear like an like an antithesis to the you know, the corporate suit, like the development deals, the comedy so you're Joe Rogan, You've literally been and you were in LA for decades, Hollywood Sports comedy, basically three like Titan areas of American entertainment? What do people not know about that industry that they should know? Which also caused you clearly to be like, I've generally had a bad experience, and I'm obviously not with the UFC or anything like that, but like you, having been at the center of all these worlds, you're like, you've seen a lot of shit, I guess, and it caused you to say, I cannot be controlled by these people, Like what were some of those experiences and like, why do you think that the industry is the way that it is today? They don't have I mean, here's the best way to describe what's going. This is the problem not just with Hollywood but also with Los Angeles because Los Angeles is inexorably connected to show business. There is no getting around. That is the reason why a large percentage of people move there. And it also massively affects the politics of the place, and not just politics but social discussions, the way people communicate, because it's an incredibly disingenuous way of communicating where you want to say the things that people are going to want to hear, because that way they're going to cast you. So here's the thing. You take these people, and generally speaking, people come to Hollywood if they have an acting dream. That's the big reason why, right, That's like probably the number one. There's comics. They come there and they're different, but not necessarily because a lot of them get into acting and they get like by that system too. But the way this system works is you go there and then you go into a room like this one. It's like, maybe we could be the casting directors and someone would come in and you go, hey, Mark, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where'd you move from it? And there's like a smugness to it and a weirdness to it because they have power over you. And they're like, well, you know, I'm from New Jersey, but uh, you know, been acting. I did a bunch of plays and blah blah blah, and I'm out here trying it out. Okay, Mark, Well you're going to read for the role of Ted, and then you know, like some fucking pa, we'll read off a thing. Well, Ted, I don't even know if we can do this. Man, it just seems like it's all wrong. You're like, come on, man, we can do it. In this I've done this so many times. You're in this like completely non natural advice. It's usually a conference room in a production office, and you're in this non natural environment with these smug people that have this massive amount of power over you, and it shapes the way people communicate. Like I've been in rooms where they'll discuss politics like right away, and you see people bend to whichever way the wind is blown, Like what do I have to say what they want? I think about the time we had a woman president, like they'll say shit, yeah, well yeah, like you see it, you see the disingect. They don't have opinions these I'm when I say they Some of them do, but a lot of them don't. What they have is a conglomeration of opinions that they've adopted because they think it'll be beneficial for their career. Because their career is they're insecure people that go to a place where they're gonna get rejected a lot. It is the worst thing ever for their mental health. I stopped dating actresses like in the nineties. It was like ninety four. I was like, oh, this is not good, this doesn't work, Like these these people are crazy. And I'm like, I know I'm crazy, but I'm I'm a like comedians slash martial artists crazy. It's like a different kind of crazy. It's like a more like honest crazy, like they're crazy. Was I need get cast in things? And also I got insanely lucky. I auditioned for two television shows, and the two television shows I auditioned for, I got both of them. It was nuts, Like I got the show called Hardball. That was the first thing I came out for. I got that and then Hardball got canceled and auditioned for news radio, and then I got that. So it's like two things in a row. It's unheard of. So just dumb luck, I auditioned for the right things. And then so I didn't see this side of it because I was already working like the constant rejection side. So I would go on auditions for movies and stuff that i'd net probably didn't really want, and I would do it because you were supposed to. You're supposed to, You're My agent would literally tell me, you need to go out on these So these casting directors know who you are, so they know you and they like you, even like, but I can't even do this because I'm doing this. They're like, just they it's better to have them want you and not be able to get you. That's weird. So and then there was like, maybe something that's going to be cast while you're on summer break, Okay, fine. So I would go on these auditions and I would see these poor fucks that were like lost in this world of being chosen for things. And that's what shapes the entire mindset of that part of the country, the entire mindset of that part of the country is doing things that you think other people will like, imagine the hellscape of a world where everyone in the business, in one business, everyone is liberal. How is that possible? How is it possible? How is it possible when the country is basically divided at fifty to fifty. So you're telling me that everyone who is is everyone who's creative, is it? Everyone who is expressive? Is it? Everyone who's theatrical? Is that possible? It's not possible because it's not really opinions. They're willing to not have any opinions on anything else other than feeding narcissism, feeding this career that seems insurmountable possible to achieve, because when you're thinking about someone wanting to be like an actor on a television show, you're like, what is what's the what are the odds that you make it? It's so small, Like there's so many people in Hollywood that never make it. Like I was talking to a buddy of mine the other day about his ex girlfriend and she was really mean to him in college and she cheated on him with his friend and all this, and she's still trying to make it now. She's forty eight. Wow, And and he was talking about how like he ran into her and this is this fucking weird moment. I was like, dude, because it's crazy. A lot of them just drop off. They just quit because they realize they're like they're clinging to this ship and they can't quite pull themselves up, and then they're in the middle of the ocean, like I gotta drop off the ship. And then sometimes they drop off and they're sixty years old and they've never made it. And then maybe they got like a bit part on like a sitcom when they walk in with a pizza and they have one line they leave and that's on their reel forever, like this is this is that industry. So that industry has made a bunch of fucking insane people because they were insane going in there. They needed a lot of attention already. And then on top of that, they get rejected over and over and over again. And I think I remember this girl that I was dating. She would come home from auditions and then she'd just be like just devastated because the audition didn't know go well and she stumbled through things. She's just like you could like feel the ankst like pulsating off of their bodies, like people were just and you run into that more than you don't, because most and most people are bitter and most people are weirded out, and they adopt these liberal sensibilities and ideologies and they don't necessarily do it because they thought these things through. I mean, occasionally you got your Mark Ruffalo type characters really all in on, but most of them are not. Most of them are just nonsense people. And those nonsense people will get on stage and they'll they'll say, like at the Academy Awards or at the Grammys, they'll talk about, this is what we have to do. We have to make sure that we support this and that, and it's fucking horseshit. So that imagine video where they all who for this perfect, perfect encapsulation. Do you think you're actually helping? That was my first favorite one. My second favorite one was after the George Floyd thing where they all did that black and white video that I will no longer stand for it. I will no longer stand for any race, Like wait, how much racist? And what is everybody super little out there? What are you experiencing? So that's the people that like, don't make it right to do and then the two groups of people that do the imagine people and the people in the other video are people to do. Do you think that fame has its own like corrosiveness and like the people who actually make it? And then you're in a different situation where you're not faced with constant rejection. Now you're faced with constant adulation, Like what does that do to people? And what has that experience been like for you? I think you have to have something to test your ego, and for me it's always been martial arts and exercise and yoga and you know, we talked about sauna that tests you as much as you don't think it does. You need things that test you. If you just have this smooth sailing life where you get out of the towel, you get out of the shower, you put your arm out and someone hands your towel and you're like, I like fresh fruit, and they bring your plate a fresh fruit and the like, and then that's a lot of people, Especially when you are on a movie set and you're a major star. I would imagine that is your reality where you're just constantly being catered to and you start thinking that you're different and better than other pieces it's very unhealthy and it's very sketchy. It's weird think about it psychologically, it's not where people are supposed to be. But you think about it, like what do they behave? Like, well, they behave like Jeoffrey in fucking Game of Thrones, right is that his name? You behave like a king, you behave like a dictator because like all these people are like throwing roses at your feet and like the red carpet shit, Like I fucking never would do Red Carver, even movies that I did, Like I did a couple of movies with Kevin James, Like you like you to walk to red carp but like, fuck you, Like I'm not. I want to go in the back of the theater. I'm not walking through that red carpet. A very weird custom money and there Joe over here, over here, over here, and some people are posing I'm wearing a hook and sneaking in the back. I'm I don't want to be a part of that. But the crazy thing, though, is that we're describing that old Hollywood. I'm you and correct me if I'm wrong, But I feel like everything is changing now. It's all like the TikTok kids like mister Beast. I mean we encounter like some of this. You created this whole space right of the YouTube, like I did create this whole well. I think I would say that it would have happened without I would call you the father of the space, whether you like it or not. And like, I think we're a outgrowth of that. I think actually a lot of new comedy that I see, for example, like YouTube comedy is how I primarily engage with comedy, like and then I mean Andrew Schultz, I became friends with them because of your show. I reached out to him and then started engaging with this podcast and more like. But Hollywood didn't have anything to do with that. So I feel like everything has changed. The Logan Paul thing was kind of crazy to me because I'm like, Yeah, this guy who was a YouTuber and then became a boxer and now he's just did this thing with Floyd Mayweather where they just sold what was like a million pay per views. I'm like, that's fucking crazy. And so now you have YouTubers who want to be boxers and boxers who want to be YouTubers. And because if you have engaged slightly in UFC. All these UFC guys are becoming influencers, Like I can see them online and they've got like fucking hot sauces and stuff, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it's like this weird change that happened. So, like, what do you make of as everything goes independent and everything moves online, has it gotten worse? Has it gotten better? Like what are some of the downsides plus size or whatever? As things have changed in the last It's only been like ten years and things are totally different. I don't think it's a worse or better. It's just a new world we're living in. Like, is the world worse or better because of social media? Or worse or better because better because of smartphones? Well, it's better because maybe you can have an app that tells if you're having a heart attack. You know, it's better because you can google the answer to a question and you don't have to bullshit people anymore. You have to wonder, you have to go find an encyclopedia. It's better because we have more access to information. You can take videos of your kids and you can look at him forever. I mean, I have videos of my daughter when she was a little baby, and I pull them up on my phone all the time. They are my favorites. You know. She's thirteen now, but I could see her when she was one, you know, and it's that's awesome. There's something amazing about this technology. There's something amazing about all of it. But it's very challenging, you know. It's we're putting ourselves in an unusual position of stress where you know, like when you see people that get in these social media squabbles. You know you talked aboute Jamie Kilsteen. Well, Jamie Kilstein has a crazy story about you know, he was like all in as a social justice warrior and he would tell me that he would attack people on Twitter and then to be walking down the street and he couldn't help looking at his phone and checking the mentions and and then but he you know, he's really honest about that. It was kind of brave he realized, like for he got canceled for like the most it was like literally the most benign thing. Like he was like trying to date someone and they were like, you're a predator, and it's like, what, yeah, what does that mean? He's like, but I've been doing this so now what is what he's saying? Like, what does that even mean? You know, like a man who's attempting to date a girl like in a lot of those circles is like problematic, but it's not even real what it is. It's like it's like we were talking about with Elon or with money earlier. It's attack vectors. It's finding a thing to attack you on. And when people can't, when there's nothing to attack, they attack things and then they justify that that's something that they should attack. When you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And one of the things about social media is that people generally look to complain about things, whether it's to complain about p people, where it's a complain about the state of politics or the climate or whatever the fuck. It is, like you get the most juice out of complaining about things, and the algorithms recognize that obviously as well, which is why the algorithms recognize that the things that people interact with most are the things that they hate. So those are the things that people go after, and they say that it's like, oh, they're engineering it to make us, you know, hateful and angry. But my friend Ari did an experiment, and he went on YouTube and he only looked up puppies for like months, and all YouTube suggested was puppies. They didn't suggest they didn't suggest like puppies. If you look at my YouTube, my YouTube is like there's some political discussion, but it's a lot of like martial arts matches and professional pool and like mindless stuff like muscle cars and things along those lines. But it's like your social media algorithm, whether it's I don't use Facebook very much, but whatever you're looking at most is what they're going to recommend to you most. So it's more of a reflection of the problem with human psychology, so that we do tend to concentrate on negative things, which I think is overall very unhealthy for us, because we're hardwired to deal with real problems because we grew, we evolved trying to get away from predators and enemy tribes are coming over the hill and trying to steal our resources. And now everything's pretty fucking easy in that regard. So now we're looking for problems in our culture. We're looking for problems in the way people communicate, and we're looking in many many cases, we're looking to enact power over other people to avoid looking inward at our own problems and difficulties. If you look at online, the people that are the most disciplined, that accomplish the most things and have the most impact, spend the least amount of time complaining about other people. The people that spend the most amount of time complaining about other people and the most of the time calling out people and insulting people and shaming people, they always get it back at them. Someone always comes at them because they're filled with flaws and they're the type of person that does that all the time. Is the type of person that's kind of shitty, you know. And then other people are gonna say, well, you've fucked over your employee, or you fucked over your mom, or you did this to that person. And look, here's the thing we found you wrote four years ago on Twitter. You piece of shit. You're an able list or you're a this or that, and it's like you're involved in this constant cycle of negativity and like it's not healthy for anybody. And the more time you can concentrate on yourself and people you care about and friendships and love and community and your actual interests, real interests like You should have real interests. You should have hobbies, you have things you're curious about. You should have like subjects you're fascinated with that you you really like. If there's a good documentary on you UFOs on YouTube or on iTunes or something, I cant fucking pumped. I'm excited, Like I'm not thinking about complaining about people. I'm not thinking about calling people out. I'm like, whooh, what's this? We got some new footage? What are they guys? Don't hear? I'm excited, like I want I like positive things, And I think if I can express anything that will help people, the more you take care of your own bullshit, the less you're gonna worry about other people's bullshit, and the more you can enjoy things that you're actually interested in, right as opposed to spending time cultivating negativity, which is so intoxicating. It's so easy for people to get caught up in this artificial drama, you know, And I think I wonder if you think that this is right too. I think there's also like a very innate human longing to be like a hero in a way, you know, to do noble things and get credit for that and be recognized, and I think part of the instinct also comes from that. In a society that doesn't give us a lot of opportunities to exercise that particular muscle, it's a longing for like, Okay, I can show that I'm virtuous. I called out this person, and now other people are joining, and it makes you feel like you actually accomplish something for sure, Yeah, I think definitely. I mean that's what virtual signaling is all about, right, And there's a bunch of human reward systems that are just built into what it means to be a person that they can get hijacked by technology and culture and a lot. And you really think you're doing a good thing and you think you're changing things, but really you're just making noise, you know. So something I think is kind of crazy is that this podcast gets millions of viewers, of listeners, etc. So jri and yet we live in DC and we've seen this with the success of our own show. Even though our show consistently will beat a CNN primetime hour, people in power don't seem to care. And I've considered this with your work as well, because I will hear a newsworthy interview that you'll do with like Bernie Sanders or something like that, or a newsworthy interview with Tulsi or with Andrew Yang or even any general influencer, and it will not get the same level of mainstream attention as if let's say they sat down with The New York Times. But you have ten times the audience of these people. Why do you think that is? I've never been able to put my arm around it. Do you think people in power don't understand you? Actually? Wait, because here's the thing they do. By the way, you have no many people? How many people are like could you give me Joe Rogan's number? My congressman really wants I like literally know, like he doesn't give a shit about you, and I'm not gonna do that, Like can you pass on this person to this room? I'm like, dude, he would hate you, like absolutely not. And in general, like I'm respectful of your time. So there is this dual thing where people are aware there are a lot of people here who are listening, but they're not yet ready to like engage with it on a mainstream level. Why like what's going on there? In terms of I almost want to call it a lack of respect because It's like they want to pretend that you don't exist, but they also have to reckon with it at some point. I don't know. Yeah, it's one more thing I don't think about. I guess that's just me. Yeah, It's like, Okay, Prince fucking Fauci, right, Like, why is Fauci commenting on Joe Rogan? What? Prince Harry openly attacked you for no reason. I actually went to go listen to the episode and I was like what. I was like, what does this fucking guy have to say about Joe? He opened his interview with Dak Shephard attacking it. That was the first things that did you go to see what happened with Joe Rogan was terrible with Responsibility Platform, And I was like, what is going on here? Right? Yeah? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Good luck to that guy. I think something that really frustrates me whenever people criticize you is that most of them don't actually listen to your podcast. Listen to a clip, right exactly. So they have somebody out there who's going to clip something to try and make it look like shit, and then then it's gonna go viral. But in general you think people in general should get vaccinated. I think human beings should take every step that they think is appropriate to take care of themselves. I don't, in general think that. I think generally a lot of people could do more to improve their health. And this is one of the things that I talk about more than anything, that we need to improve our health, and it's something you can do, but it's something that people look It's the only thing you have. Your body is the only thing you have, and most people treat it like shit. If your body dies, you cease to exist. So all the things you have, all the things you have in this life, are dependent upon your body functioning correctly. And you you have agency in this like you can do something about your body doing better. You can do something about strengthening your immune system. You can do something about your health, and most people choose not to, and there's been no emphasis whatsoever on public awareness of how significant it is to take care of your body. I heard you say something wants to make me really sad, and it was that you can't save humanity at scale. I can't remember who you were talking to, but you were talking about I think it was about diet. I think it was about ending factory farming and more. Do you actually think you can't save humanity at scale, like or are you talking in terms of your own influence that you have. In terms of that message around health, you know, there's no one human being where everyone's going to listen. There's no one positive message. Hey, we should just love each other. Hey, we should value community and friendship, and we should take care of our bodies and be healthy. Hey, fuck you. There's still one person that could say anything where everyone's going to listen. But that is the most significant factor. The most significant factor is doing things that are positive both for your health and for your friendships and for your community, and also like choosing a path in life that is actually rewarding and satisfying. And that's hard. It's hard for a lot of us. We talked about on our podcast. Oh absolutely, it's a very difficult thing to do. And this idea that you know everybody starts at the same starting block is fucking total horseshit. And that is something that people who are doing well like to stick in the face of people that really were dealt a really bad hand of cards. So the three of us, we can't just snap our fingers. But you you know a lot of people are going to listen to this if you were one of those people who've heard you talk about I used to work one of these jobs, just like it's working in these soulless cubicle jobs. I had the ability, financial ability to be like I have to get the fuck out of here, like I have to get out. But there are a lot of people who I left behind who are still there, like, are still work. Let's talk about you guys, right, You guys were in a situation where you were doing the show for someone else, and there was a significant amount of fear in leaving. But you had so many things on your side. You had other people like myself and Kyle and all these other people that loved you and supported you that would be more than willing to help promote you, people with a lot of influence. You also had a tremendous amount of followers, both on your social media and on your show itself. You had so many things going. You have talent, you have the right morals and ethics, You have a great insight to politics and to the social issues, and yet you're still worried. Yeah. Now, imagine if you're making fifteen dollars an hour, and you have children to feed, and you have a you have a dream, you have a risk, you have a thing to do, and you're scared, and a lot of people would advise you to not take any risks in that situation, and that might be good advice because everybody's got a unique situation. Everybody's situation is totally completely unique, and it's it's hard always, but my advice is always, you have to think of your life in terms of first of all, it's a temporary situation. You have a finite amount of time and it could be a good time or it can suck. And if it sucks, you you have to fight to change it as if your life depends on it, because it really does, it really does. The quality of your life depends on the quality of the experience depends on it. And you've got yourself into a bad situation. Like if you went down the wrong road. Okay, if you're going if you have a destination to go to and you're supposed to go left, but you fuck up and you go right, and you go right for like a couple of miles and you realize like, oh my god, I went right. What do you do? Do you keep going right? But do you stop, get out of the car and cry No, you realize like, oh my god, it's going to take me hours and hours and hours to go back and turn around and turn a back. Yeah, that's what you got to do. You've got to get better the same way you got sick. You've been living your life, if you've been living your life with a bad diet or with a bad mindset, or you've been living like blaming other people for your failures, you've got to recognize that those things are not serving you well and you have to back up and you have to go left. You have to go the right way. You have to figure out a way to get on the right path. And for a lot of people, that kind of change and that kind of alteration of these comfort patterns that people fall into is extremely difficult to do. But you've got to do it. You've got to do it. It's the only way to do it, you know. And this is it's easier to say. It's easy for me to say because I'm an impulsive person who's reckless, and I've always just gone whatever way I want to and people have always given me advice don't do that. I'm like, fuck you. And I've always done that always, from the time I was a child. It's because I was a lot key kid and my parents didn't really pay attention to me. And my first success in life was doing something extremely dangerous. It was doing martial arts competitions when I was a young teenager. So for me, I was like, oh, I'm not listening to anybody now because this is the number one thing in my life ever and it's the thing that everybody told me to never do. And then I became really good at it and it became my identity. But then I realized, Okay, I can't do this anymore because this is bad for my brain. I'm getting brain damage and there's no future in this. I got to get out. And then I started doing stand up comedy. I'm like, I'm gonna be a comedian and the same thing everybody was telling me don't do that. Was that a scary transition or you just did it? Yeah? No, it was definitely scared. What What was that like, Well, just you don't know whether or not it's gonna work. Anytime you're you're going down, you're taking the first couple of steps on a path with no certainty whatsoever. It's terrifying. You know, you don't you don't know. But again, I was twenty one years old, I was reckless, and I had been accustomed to doing dangerous things, so it was exciting. So I was like, well, let me just try this. And again, there was no future in it. I did not know whether or not it was gonna work. And you know, the odds were when I looked at all the people around me that were falling off that didn't make it, the odds were not good. But I just did it. So then I started doing everything like that, and it kind of set a pattern in my life where I just I'd follow my instincts. Does it seem like a thing to do? Like what if I started doing the podcast like my friend Ari famously, I always mock him. So you got to edit it. You gotta edit it's too long? I go, why, he goes, no one's gonna listen to three hours? I go, don't listen, and he's like, I want people to listen to your show, trust me edit it. I'm not editing shit fuck off? Well that that's the signature, though, is the three hour mark? And actually set it changed, in my opinion, changed everything about what people were willing to listen to. I think the success of our long form showing more a lot of it was born from that space, and that's why I think about it a lot. Was it intentional? Were you just like like the original ones with Red Band, like the episode one and two and more? Like? When did the three hour become part of the signature necessarily? Like? Why why did you go three hours in the first three After three hours, people have to pee? Got it? But then why are movies only an hour and a half? Right? Some Tarantino movies go longer? That's true, I think, honestly it's true. Actually, I just feel like you gotta to get an idea and really to really have a conversation with someone and get into their head and find out what makes some tick. You gotta it takes time to cook, you know, you can't just microwave that shit. You have to. Like, if you have an important, complex idea and you go on see an then for five minutes and talked to Chris Cuomo about it, You're fucked. It's not getting out right, It's not It's like, ideas are like human beings. They are like personalities and the history of your life. It's complex. There's a lot going on. If you're talking about something, you know, whatever it is, whether it's the ancient history or cosmology or these are complex subjects. You know, any of things that are really interesting, they require like long examinations of things, and even then you're just scratching the surface. Really, you're supposed to go to school for eight years, you know. It's there's a lot of benefit in long conversations. And if I'm naturally anything, I'm naturally curious. I've always been a very curious person, and that goes back to I moved around a lot when I was a child. My parents. We moved from New Jersey to San Francisco when I was seven, and then we lived in San Francisco till I was eleven, and then we moved to Florida when I was eleven and we lived there for three years, and then we moved to Boston and then we lived I guess we lived in Florida for two years till I was thirteen, and then we moved to Boston and I lived there and that's where I started doing stand up. So I never had a chance to settle down in a place long enough to adopt everybody else's opinions. I had to form my own opinions on things. And I spent a lot of time by myself. And so spending a lot of time by myself, I found things that I was interested in, things that I was genuinely curious about, and I pursued those things. And that's what gave me joy, and that's what gave me that's what fulfilled my interests. And so that sort of just spilled up into podcasts. Like if you asked me, like, what is the difference between what other people are doing and what I'm doing? Maybe maybe they're trying to do something that they think is going to be the thing that works, and I just did what I wanted to do and it just got lucky that it works. Yes, maybe a lot of people that just do what they want to do other people wouldn't be interested in it. Do you think if it hadn't taken off, you'd still be doing it? Like if it was still like five hundred people listening tuning in, do you think you would still do it? I don't know. It's a good question, honestly, it's a good question. I mean, in the beginning. My wife was always like, you don't have to do it, Like I have to do it, You don't have to do it. What was the impulse why? Like I think I forget it was already in that episode you did with the guy who inspired you. I forget his name where he Anthony Anthony? Is that you were inspired by going on a show? What was it about that free flowingness that something inside you was like, I gotta do that. You're like, I have got well. I always loved to go on those shows. I always loved to go on Opiing Anthony and Howard Stern and those kind of radio shows. Like when I would say, if I was gonna fly into Phoenix and do stand up for the weekend, I would do the local morning show. And I love doing it because you would just talk. They'd go, hey, Joe Rogan's here, blah blah blah, how's it going. I'd be like, oh, it's great, and like, what have you been up to? And I go, dude, I've been reading this book about zach Ryace all this stuff to talk about this wild stuff and they and you know, sometimes people would say, hey, you should have a radio show. And I even got offered a radio show at one point in time, and I was like, oh, I don't know about this, Like I'm just gonna get fired and and then I can't swear like it was gonna limity. Yeah, right, and they'll they find the ship out of here. It's real like if someone says something wrong, like you can get a quarter million dollars fine or something crazy like Howard Stern. That's one thing that people don't give enough credit for. They find the fuck out of that guy. And he didn't care. He kept going, He kept going. But it's also like the company paid the fines because it was valuable to have him up. It was also kind of a badge of honor that this guy is getting fined by the government. And this is during the Bush days, right during the Bush administration. They went after him because of his influence. I just it seemed like a thing to do. And then when you stream came around where you could just have a webcam and just talking to a webcam and just fuck around, I thought it'd be fun to do. It was just a fun thing, and then uh, it became a thing like all right, we're gonna do this every Monday. I'll see it Monday bye, and we like log off and laugh and go. That was fun, but it wasn't a thing where it was ever thought about, like this is going to be a career. So because of that, I just approached it. I just did it the way I wanted to do it. That's why when Ari was giving me advice, I wasn't listening at all, like because you're like, I don't care do it. But if Ari was today, which ironically he does three hour podcasts sometimes born if Ari was the Aria of Today and I was the me of then, I maybe would listen because he's got a successful podcast. I'd be like, oh shit, I did it, hmm, because no one had successful pod cast back then. I mean Maren had a podcast, and Corolla had a podcast. Maybe Corolla was number one because I think Corolla was coming off of radio and it was interesting to people that this guy who was the guy who took over in Los Angeles for Howard Stern when Howard Stern went to satellite all of a sudden started a podcast and I went to do his show before I ever did a podcast, and I remember I'm like, wow, you do like a real show, Like you got microphones and cameras and shit, and you had a bunch of employees like, oh, this is wild, and then I started thinking like, man, maybe I should do that. But like when we started out, it was just a laptop, but it's been a completely organic rate of progression, all of it. No, think about it. One of the things I've never done. I've never advertised it. I never paid for advertisement. I never I just it's all word of mouth, one hundred percent. I never did anything to promote it. I never went on anybody else's podcast and said you got to watch my podcast and I said. I never did like a calculated press tour. Nothing, just kept doing it. If that's part of why people responded to it so much though, because everybody's so used to being pitched all the time in every aspect of their lives that I actually think that's one of the things that appeals probably, And I think people can tell if you're genuinely interested in what you're doing, and I think that comes out. It does, Yeah, if you're genuinely interested. I think it's interesting people can can sniff out bullshit and fakeness better than like, human beings aren't that great at statistics or math or numbers or like any of that stuff. But I do think that there's a very good instinct in general for that sort of like genuineness and authenticity and like I can tell this person really means what they say. It's particularly obvious. In contrast, So if you took someone who's doing a late night talk show, late night late night talk show style, and you have them try to do that on a podcast disaster, it would be a But what it's like, it's like the difference between Howard Stern and morning DJs. Hey, coming up right now, we've got bla Bob Seeker and you know they play that's that's what those people have. And then Stern came along and he was himself and people are like, this is crazy, and that that was in contrast, he made all those other people look foolish, yes, because they weren't themselves. You know. So we talked about on the podcast before that that guy that's the seed of all podcasts, that guy, it's Hard Stern. What's funny to me though, is that in way Stern is responsible for Trump, Like Trump, you know, was on Stern all the time, kind of being himself. And so when then I think about you and I try to think about your audience and like, maybe maybe the next president is born here. I have no idea, you know, I didn't have Trump on twice. Yeah, I know, two opportunities. I was like, uh h, so let's talk about that, because this is a yeah, a message out to all the politicians who keep asking me in order to connect me with Joe Rogan. What is Joe Rogan's process and how he decides which politics? Because look like, what do Crenshaw, Yang, Taulsi and Bernie have in common? Well, that's a lot, okay, But then how do you define that? How do you look at somebody and say you're not full shit before you even get to meet them. I heard Andrew Yang talk and I saw the things he was saying. I didn't think he was a politician. I thought he was a businessman who had a unique idea. And Andrew's unique idea was that, first of all, I think he has good foresight to see that automation's coming and it's going to take a lot of jobs. And I think he's correct about that. Whether it's ten years from now or twenty years from now, it's something that needs to be addressed now before it gets out of hand. And also, as we talked about on our podcast earlier, I think that there's a real benefit to something like universal basic income in that it'll allow people to take care of their basic needs and maybe those people can take chances and pursue a dream that they they would be outside of their reach. So that was Andrew with Tulsi. She just seems so genuine in so many different ways and so respectable. Right who was a congresswoman who served two tours of duty overseas in a medical union and and dealt with people getting blown up and shot, and she had seen it all and has so much integrity. If I've she was my number one choice, you know, I just felt like I felt like Bernie was more popular and had a chance at doing something different and changing things, and so I wanted to talk to him. That's those are the type of people that I like to talk to. Crenshaw's and Navy seal. I have a deep respect for people that can do that. I have a deep respect for people that have served. Guy lost an eye, and even if I disagree with him on certain political opinions and positions, I have a massive amount of respect for the guys as a just as a human being and who he is, and I've hung out with him in real life, that's who he is all the time. Absolutely, What happened with the Trump what's the backstory there? And did you consider having him on? Did you like wag really coming back with it? They wanted me do it at the White House, and I want WHOA, I'm mad that? Oh my god d I mean if he had been willing to come here, I don't know if you were in LA at that point, like consider if it can maybe I want to have thought about it in La, like to do like a real three hour thing. But either way, the problem is this is a it's a real problem in that I don't want anybody to be uncomfortable, and I don't think it's my role, Like if I'm talking to someone like him, there's some uncomfortable things that have to be addressed. I've interviewed Trump. I know exactly what we're talking about, and he actually hates to be pushed. So you'll have to be like mister president. He's like, you know, he gets pissed whenever you'll do it. But that's why you got to do three hours, right, That's true. You got to cook them right, but his staff make sure that they right exactly. I remember that they'd want to edit it. Oh of course. Fifteen minutes in underneath the resolute desk, his staff person is hitting me in the leg trying to get me to wrap it, and I was like, dude, I'm not fucking wrapping this thing. I was like, I'm gonna rap staff members hitting Bill Shine, the former head of Fox News, was sitting there smacking my leg trying to get me to wrap at fifteen minutes. Why because you're asking onto questions questions, right, and you know in general, they they just want you to come in, you get a little abide or whatever, and then he says whatever they want him to say that day, and then they want to be done because especially within God knows what the whole thing was not. It was not what I'm interested. It's not what I do. Like the idea of going to the White House and doing a twenty minute podcast, it's not a podcast. I mean, I know Portnoyd did it that way. He went there, but you know, for you for that too, I'm sure he did. But it's like, I'm not interested in that. So I don't ever do things saying this is going to be a big episode. It's gonna be a lot of numbers. I do things if I think someone's cool, someone's I'm interested in someone, or I think what their their position is fascinating with him, it was like, I don't want to help anybody in this race. I don't I certainly don't want to help him, and I certainly don't want to help Biden. And uh, did the Biden people approach you? No? I think maybe early on. I don't remember. Before I got real controversial, before the presidential account. I remember being like, that's crazy, man. Before what when Trump tweeted out a click, I was like, that's yeah. Well that was because I said that I think of Joe Biden as having a flashlight with a dying battery going for a long walk in the woods. And it turns out I'm right, because that motherfucker's flickering right now. I just did a whole thing on that. I mean from so, if you're what's your advice then to the people who want to appeal to your demographic? This is what everybody's like, mean, So for well, that's the thing, which is that you have influence over people who are right and left, I think probably predominantly male, but people all over the spectrum, all over the income There are uber drivers, and they are multi millionaires who listen to your show because we were reached out to by some of them after we went on your show, and I was like, this is fucking crazy in terms of the amount of people that listened to Rogan. And the game in politics right now is everybody has the hard right lockdown and everybody has the hard left lockdown in terms of the base. But millions of people just fucking hate politics, and you seem to have tapped into something there. So if you're a politician and you're listening to this, and I can guarantee you some of them will, what are they what's your advice to them? In order to try and appeal to the people who are fans of Joe Rogan. It's not my wheelhouse. I would send them to you guys like I don't know enough about the way politics works. Like when we did the End of the World podcast with Kyle like to have him on during the election, It's like, this is perfect because he expertly explained how it was going to go down and predicted incredibly accurately. He said you're going to get these early people that are voting for Trump because those are the people that are walking in and voting in person. The late ballots are all going to be the mail in ballots, and those are going to be the one for Biden. So there's going to be a lot of places where people think Trump is winning and it's eventually going to shift over to It's exactly what happened. That was super valuable. So when it comes to someone who wants to do anything politically, I would refer to that. And if I did have a politician on that I thought was some sort of polarizing politician, I might bring on someone like you, or you or Kyle or Jimmy Doore or someone who understands politics deeply. I do not. I'm too busy with other stuff, right, But you're also are. That's the crazy to me called I think all politics culture, all culture has become politics. So like you have become political in a way I know you don't want to be, but like that's how people see you. Has that been frustrating for you? Like, as as as the podcast is progressing, the only frustrating thing is the misinterpretation of my positions. Yes, and maybe not. It's more of a misrepresentation than a misinterpretation like that. I think they've just decided that I'm a right wing, alt right character because I had Milo Yanapolis on four years ago. There's things about that which ironically led to Milo getting canceled. That's right, it was you. It was your show. I remember young boys and older gay men, and he was like saying that his his position on it was that it was okay, and that it was for him when he was young, that he was the predator. This is what he said, that he was going after the older men, you know, and a lot of people that was like the straw that broke the camel's back, which is but let's be honest, they were looking for something like that. Of course, people have been hunting him for years right before that happened. Yeah, And you know, it's really weird, right because like, did you think he was phonny when you're interviewing him phony? Yeah, he's not phony. He's certainly doing a character, and he's he's certainly polarizing, and he's an attention seeker for yeah, for sure, Yeah, for sure, for sure. He's he's a showman in a lot of ways in a weird way. And the thing is he found this niche and see, this is where he gets in a censorship issue, because it's really curious because there was a point in time where aggressive conservative not conservative right, right wingers, all right, whatever you want to call them, aggressive people who opposed a lot of liberal ideology were dominating a lot of social media platforms. And before social media came in and checked it and started deleting accounts and banning people for using Peppy the Frog and all that kind of shit, they were dominating. It was wild West. I remember wild West thirteen fourteen, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, or it's crazy in the marketplace of ideas. Are we supposed to let that happen? Are we supposed to let these people just battle it out? Or are we supposed to take away people that we don't agree with? And that's where it gets weird because there's a lot of like aggressively shitty left wing people now, because there's a lot of people that are behaving the exact same way or worse than Milo did, but they'll they're doing it against right wing people. And we find that, okay, we find that acceptable. But we found what Milo did to be completely unacceptable because the people that are in charge of tech platforms are predominantly, like overwhelmingly liberal, which is really interesting, Well are they liberal or are they Hollywood liberal? I think a lot of them are woke, let's call it about like pro union or but they're socially very liberal, right, the social liberal aspect of it in terms of what's tolerable and not tolerable, Like when Megan Murphy got kicked off of Twitter for life for saying that she's a feminist, and she got kicked off for saying that men who transitioned to women were dominating some feminist spaces and she got in some sort of beef with somebody and she said, but a man is never a woman, and they just like I remember, I think Timpoole pressed uh Jack Dorsey, Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that was actually a very important moment. And I want to be very respectful of your time. And we're nearing the end of what we have you and I think the major question that a lot of people see I guess going forward is like ten years ago, you didn't see any of this happening, But now you're dominating sports, You're dominating or look, you're top UFC commentator, right, you are the king of podcasting. You sell out stadiums as a comedian. Is there anything next ten years from now are you going to be doing all three? Like? How do you see your career progressing or not even career, your life progressing. I don't know answer. I think that's you know, people think you have to have a fucking vision board, and no, you just have to grind. Yeah, you know. I'm a grinder. That's what I do. I get up every morning at seven o'clock. I do the same shit every day, whether it's working out or every night in the sauna. Like every I do, stand up every fucking chance I can. I grind, and I find that when I'm grinding things, good things happen. And then I just decide to either keep doing something or not keep doing something. There may come a time where I decide, when it comes to like UFC, for instance, maybe I'll just better off being a fan, you know, because one of the things that I loved more than anything was when I was living in LA we used to do fight companions. So we would we would get together and smoke pot and drink and watch the fights and just talk crazy shit. It was so much more fun. But I also have a deep amount of respect for the athletes, and I recognize that like being there and giving words to their performances and to honor them and to to make it exciting and to just give some some verbal horsepower to the to the experience for people that are watching at home. I feel extremely honored. I also can't believe any of this is real. Like I can't believe that I'm doing these three things simultaneously. It doesn't even make any sense. Like Eric Weinstein said that he had this funny conversation with somebody was talking about the UFC, and then he was talking about a podcasts and then they went, wait a minute, that's the same guy. And then I'm like, dude, I think like that all the time. I feel like that when I show up at the UFC and I walk into the arena and I'm like, what am I doing? But then I put the headphones on. Then I'm breaking down techniques and going over movements and different things. It's like, I don't I just maybe if I was struggling, maybe it was the beginning of my career, I would have like an idea like this is where I want to be in ten years. But that's never what I've done. I've always just kind of like just kept going. And now what I'm doing is like people say, oh, what's your goal, and I'm like, I don't know. Like my goal. I like doing this, so it was long. Long as I like doing this, I'll keep doing this. That's kind of what my goal is. I want to get better at it. All the things, whether it's better at stand up, better at podcasting, better at commentary, I want to get better at I want to make less mistakes. I want to make it more enjoyable for people that like it. I want to get better at it. And you know, moments where I misspeak, where I have a fuck up, or you know, people get mad at me, Like I don't like those moments. That's not what I want. What I want is for people to enjoy it, you know. I don't want to give fuel to people that are just looking to get mad at me for something. I'm just trying to put together something that people enjoy. That's my one my goal. There's no there's no real agenda otherwise I don't want any more attention. One of the things I was hoping about Spotify was like, one thing will happen is I'll be less famous. I like it'd be nice way more famous. It was good. I thought it was gonna work either way. Well again, I know we don't have you that long. Why do you think you got more famous because of Spotify? I feel like he became a household name after Spotify. I don't know. I think it's I think it's people realize there's a lot of money in this ship. Yeah, I think that was a big factor or people. It was like it was like one of those moments in a movie where the record skips because it was in Forbes and all this ship. It's just like whoa. And then the level of like weirdness in public ramped up considerably considerably And does that does that bother you? Or most people are nice? Yeah? No, I must say all people are nice, Like, no one's ever mean to be in public. They're almost always nice, Like this has been a couple of times too nice. I bet sometimes people get weird. But you know, I'm I work hard at being nice. I'm a genuinely nice person. I try to be nice all the time. So it's like most of the time I was just saying I to people, but it's weird. You have no anonymity. There's none, that's all. It used to be like some anonymity, but now it's like, oh, it died, you know. But I mean, I think you can get that back. You just get to vanish for a while. You know, maybe maybe that'll be the next tick. Would you ever go off the air for like six months, I don't know, Yeah, maybe that'd be crazy. I don't know. Maybe people would go through with you, I don't know, find somebody else. I think it's the thing about podcasting is, uh, it's not It's not any different than anything else, whether it's music or literature or comedy. There's gonna be more people, you know. And I think one of the real problems with some people in their ego is they really do believe that they're the only one that can do it, or they're the best one that can do it, or there. But I think thinking like that and having that attitude ever at all, detracts you and distracts you from the ultimate goal, which is to always do your best. To always do your best is like, you know, you know the four agreements. Don Migueljuris so I love this book. It's like an amazing book. And uh. One of the four agreements is always do your best, be impeccable with your word, don't make any assumptions, don't take things personally, always do your best. And it's these are so it's so simple, right. But if you can like live your life like that, even if you haven't up until now, even if your life has been a cluster fuck of terrible mistakes and and FIBs and lies and deception and just and and hating yourself, if you can just follow those four things, you could change everything. I really, really do, genuinely believe that I always just try to do my best, and nobody hates my failures more than I do, like nobody believe. I think that's one one of the reasons why I can keep going. And I I don't sit back on it at all. I don't I don't like what I do. I don't like I'm not a fan of my own work. You know, I'm just not interested in it. I'm I'm I'm interested in trying to get better at it. But it's not like I ever sit back and watch something like go oh, it's pretty fucking cool. I genuinely don't. I think that is completely I don't think it does you any good. It's either good or it's not. It's good, congratulations, keep moving. That's how I look at things. And then I'm also interested in so many other things, you know, Like right now, even though I've got a lot of stuff going on, I'm thinking about this fucking workout I have to do tomorrow morning. Yeah, Like you know, I'm like, because i know it's coming, and then tomorrow I'm like, oh Jesus, and then once it But that kind of stuff, like having things that I know I'm committed to that I know are brutal, and you either do it or you don't do it. There's no ifans or butts. Those things keep you grounded. Those things keep you rooted in the reality of the struggle. And I think that if you do. I just think everybody has a different personality, everybody has a different mindset and a different perspective on life. But from my perspective, with me as a human being, like me personally, I cannot I cannot be happy unless I'm struggling. I have to have physical struggle, I have to have mental challenges. I have to have things that I'm doing that I'm working on trying to be better at And as long as I do those things, then I can appreciate all the other things better. Then I'm a more loving husband, father, and friend, and I'm better as a neighbor. I'm better at all those things because I take care of all my bullshit. And I think that's that's a and that's a There's a lot involved in that. And health is involved in that too. I think when people don't take care of their health, they're not It's not just bad for them, it's bad for you, all the other people around you. It's bad for how you interact and interface with the world. It's like you got to do your best with your body too. And you know, if this doesn't just mean just get vaccinated and Jesus Christ, like take care of yourself. You got one meat vehicle. This is it. Joe, Thank you, Thank you, you guys too, appreciate you. Thank you so much. Pleasure