Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election.

Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election.

We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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You're saying that.

You're saying that.

Israel needs to allow Hamas to stay there. Who's been breaking international law? Of our conplic are twenty years.

Israel needs to allow Hamas to stay there. Who's been breaking international law? Of our conplic are twenty years.

As opposed to Hamas allowing these early government to stay there when they're breaking international law for even longer.

As opposed to Hamas allowing these early government to stay there when they're breaking international law for even longer.

Than That's not peace. Nobody wants peace. People want justice.

Than That's not peace. Nobody wants peace. People want justice.

Oops, it's just war.

Oops, it's just war.

Gauz is unlivable anymore, too bad to cancelfort Palestinian life.

Gauz is unlivable anymore, too bad to cancelfort Palestinian life.

People are starving. Is just all an accident.

People are starving. Is just all an accident.

It's crazy that the numbers are so poor for a country that could kill so many more people. They're doing things that no other countries are in. There's a reason, by the way, which you will never recognize, why all of the surrounding Arab states have a Bean ined the Palestinians too, because their history has been one of violence. That first they've been encouraged by the surrounding nations and used by them, and then now they've been abandoned.

It's crazy that the numbers are so poor for a country that could kill so many more people. They're doing things that no other countries are in. There's a reason, by the way, which you will never recognize, why all of the surrounding Arab states have a Bean ined the Palestinians too, because their history has been one of violence. That first they've been encouraged by the surrounding nations and used by them, and then now they've been abandoned.

What's the other nations?

What's the other nations?

Happy Friday everyone, or Thursday night if you're a premium subscriber Breakingpoints dot Com if you want to get the show early to your inbox. I'm Emilidrishinski, and you probably recognize the man sitting next to me. We're about to tee up a fascinating debate. I'm joined, of course, also by my co host, my wonderful co host, Ryan Grimm. And these two gentlemen that you see here are not debating for the first time. They debated in the past. Maybe some of you have watched that they sparred over the question of Israel actually earlier this year and then kind of subsequently continued a bit.

Happy Friday everyone, or Thursday night if you're a premium subscriber Breakingpoints dot Com if you want to get the show early to your inbox. I'm Emilidrishinski, and you probably recognize the man sitting next to me. We're about to tee up a fascinating debate. I'm joined, of course, also by my co host, my wonderful co host, Ryan Grimm. And these two gentlemen that you see here are not debating for the first time. They debated in the past. Maybe some of you have watched that they sparred over the question of Israel actually earlier this year and then kind of subsequently continued a bit.

Of a back and forth.

Of a back and forth.

So we know that we're not going to settle the debate once and for all here today. But I think what we want to do Ryan is really pushed for more moral clarity, push for more contrast as we reflect on just this last week of absolute historic protests, rocking dozens of campuses across the country. So we have two popular proponents of the respective sides here and we're excited to get into it.

So we know that we're not going to settle the debate once and for all here today. But I think what we want to do Ryan is really pushed for more moral clarity, push for more contrast as we reflect on just this last week of absolute historic protests, rocking dozens of campuses across the country. So we have two popular proponents of the respective sides here and we're excited to get into it.

Yeah, and to introduce them both. We've got to my right here, Omar bar Dharr. He is a Palestinian American political analyst who's been following a situation in the Middle East for many, many years. On the other side, we have Stephen Banel Junior, who's better known by his streaming name mister Barelli or whatever the or by like a dozen different names from if You If you guys watched the Norman Finkelstein debate that kind of thrust destiny as a streaming name into this conversation to we want to start with the campus protests before getting to the war itself. This week saw a militarized response over at VCU U T Austin Columbia and the kind and a vigilante response at u C l A. Uh So, just curious for your your read in general on these protests as they've unfolded it. Have you seen any double standard when it comes to kind of the free speech warriors that we've seen championing the cause of free expression on college campuses now championing the cause of shooting fireworks into peaceful encampments.

Yeah, and to introduce them both. We've got to my right here, Omar bar Dharr. He is a Palestinian American political analyst who's been following a situation in the Middle East for many, many years. On the other side, we have Stephen Banel Junior, who's better known by his streaming name mister Barelli or whatever the or by like a dozen different names from if You If you guys watched the Norman Finkelstein debate that kind of thrust destiny as a streaming name into this conversation to we want to start with the campus protests before getting to the war itself. This week saw a militarized response over at VCU U T Austin Columbia and the kind and a vigilante response at u C l A. Uh So, just curious for your your read in general on these protests as they've unfolded it. Have you seen any double standard when it comes to kind of the free speech warriors that we've seen championing the cause of free expression on college campuses now championing the cause of shooting fireworks into peaceful encampments.

Yeah, it's the double standard is incredibly glaring. I mean you would have to put on blinders to actually miss it. I think that these student protesters are the conscience of this country. We are witnessing an absolutely horrific situation unfolding on the ground, and American policy is to insist on continuing to send endless weapons unconditionally to a military force that is mass slaughtering children by the tens of thousands. And these students are saying, we're taking a stand, this is not okay. If we can't impact the policy makers directly, We're going to make sure that our institutions and the money that we're paying to these institutions is not playing into this kind of mass slaughter and what we witness like, from my perspective, in a better world, cops would be going after the people who are violating American law to make sure that weapons can continue slaughtering children, rather than going after people who are peacefully protesting, overwhelmingly peacefully protesting in order to change that policy, change American investment in it. And you're absolutely right, you have a level of demonization of these protesters, constantly talking about them as if you know, it's just like anti Semitic mobs or whatever that people leading these protests. There's very significant portion of progressive young Jewish people who are the leaders in many cases of some of these protests, groups from If Not Now and Jewish Wars for Peace and many others, and they are on the receiving end of tremendous hate and violence, and nobody talks about that. And as you mentioned, what we're witnessing in the UCLA is absolutely horrifying. These protesters being attacked by you know, bear spray and fireworks and some of them being beaten up and you see like some serious injuries. But because the climate in this country is one in which one side gets demonized, that empowers and emboldens the response not just from police but also from vigilantes. And I just want to know one last thing, just because Steven is here and I think it's really relevant, is there's a person that I know named Simone Zimmermann and who.

Yeah, it's the double standard is incredibly glaring. I mean you would have to put on blinders to actually miss it. I think that these student protesters are the conscience of this country. We are witnessing an absolutely horrific situation unfolding on the ground, and American policy is to insist on continuing to send endless weapons unconditionally to a military force that is mass slaughtering children by the tens of thousands. And these students are saying, we're taking a stand, this is not okay. If we can't impact the policy makers directly, We're going to make sure that our institutions and the money that we're paying to these institutions is not playing into this kind of mass slaughter and what we witness like, from my perspective, in a better world, cops would be going after the people who are violating American law to make sure that weapons can continue slaughtering children, rather than going after people who are peacefully protesting, overwhelmingly peacefully protesting in order to change that policy, change American investment in it. And you're absolutely right, you have a level of demonization of these protesters, constantly talking about them as if you know, it's just like anti Semitic mobs or whatever that people leading these protests. There's very significant portion of progressive young Jewish people who are the leaders in many cases of some of these protests, groups from If Not Now and Jewish Wars for Peace and many others, and they are on the receiving end of tremendous hate and violence, and nobody talks about that. And as you mentioned, what we're witnessing in the UCLA is absolutely horrifying. These protesters being attacked by you know, bear spray and fireworks and some of them being beaten up and you see like some serious injuries. But because the climate in this country is one in which one side gets demonized, that empowers and emboldens the response not just from police but also from vigilantes. And I just want to know one last thing, just because Steven is here and I think it's really relevant, is there's a person that I know named Simone Zimmermann and who.

She's intended today for an intercept of that that's right.

She's intended today for an intercept of that that's right.

And she's one of the most conscientious and decent human beings that you'll ever meet. And she knows personal people in her life who have lost loved ones on October seventh from the attack that Hamas carried out, and she was horrified by that attack, and she's equally horrified by Israel's response.

And she's one of the most conscientious and decent human beings that you'll ever meet. And she knows personal people in her life who have lost loved ones on October seventh from the attack that Hamas carried out, and she was horrified by that attack, and she's equally horrified by Israel's response.

In the mass slaughter.

In the mass slaughter.

And she's one of those people who is fighting for a better future for Palestinians and Israelis. And she was at a passover cedar at Colombia, joining the protesters and talking about how beautiful it is that she's in that setup. And Stephen Coot tweeted that tweet and said that he would like to donate thousands of gallons of kerosy and presumably so these people can set themselves on fire. And it's just such an ugly and distasteful thing to say. And I'm genuinely curious of what you were thinking when you tweet things like that.

And she's one of those people who is fighting for a better future for Palestinians and Israelis. And she was at a passover cedar at Colombia, joining the protesters and talking about how beautiful it is that she's in that setup. And Stephen Coot tweeted that tweet and said that he would like to donate thousands of gallons of kerosy and presumably so these people can set themselves on fire. And it's just such an ugly and distasteful thing to say. And I'm genuinely curious of what you were thinking when you tweet things like that.

If everybody celebrated Bushnell doing his protest, from more people want to protest that way than God help him, I guess.

If everybody celebrated Bushnell doing his protest, from more people want to protest that way than God help him, I guess.

So this is not about Bushnell, though, But let's keep going in response to that, because Omar set up an interesting j justicae position here between anti Semitic mobs and peaceful protesters. So is what we're seeing on these campuses anti Semitic mobs or is it peaceful protesters from your perspectives.

So this is not about Bushnell, though, But let's keep going in response to that, because Omar set up an interesting j justicae position here between anti Semitic mobs and peaceful protesters. So is what we're seeing on these campuses anti Semitic mobs or is it peaceful protesters from your perspectives.

Even from my perspective, I mean, it really depends on which series of videos that you watch. I think from an American perspective, it really shouldn't matter if they're anti Semitic mobs or if they're protesting foreign policy or whatever. The United States, we don't have hate speech laws. You should be allowed to say really whatever you want in protest, assuming you're not violating any social or whatever the ordinances are. I know, like for some college campuses you're not allowed to block pathways, or you can't protest if they've got events planned for graduations or whatever. And as long as they're not disrupting the piece in a way where you're like, you can't blow loudspeakers. I think on college campuses, as long as you're following lugs, you'll be able to protest however you want.

Even from my perspective, I mean, it really depends on which series of videos that you watch. I think from an American perspective, it really shouldn't matter if they're anti Semitic mobs or if they're protesting foreign policy or whatever. The United States, we don't have hate speech laws. You should be allowed to say really whatever you want in protest, assuming you're not violating any social or whatever the ordinances are. I know, like for some college campuses you're not allowed to block pathways, or you can't protest if they've got events planned for graduations or whatever. And as long as they're not disrupting the piece in a way where you're like, you can't blow loudspeakers. I think on college campuses, as long as you're following lugs, you'll be able to protest however you want.

But if you are, say what we saw from NYPD and LAPD actually last night, if you're violating laws university rules, even with an encampment, if you broke into the hall like they did and have been barricaded up in there, What did you make of the NYPD response? Just like Columbia for example, I like.

But if you are, say what we saw from NYPD and LAPD actually last night, if you're violating laws university rules, even with an encampment, if you broke into the hall like they did and have been barricaded up in there, What did you make of the NYPD response? Just like Columbia for example, I like.

To wait till the ust settles on this because I hear so many different things about how students were all being peaceful. I've seen obviously the videos of like some of the stuff being broken into. I think that when it comes to an analysis of how to respond to these particular events, I think that the start and stop needs to be what are the rules and regulations in place? Because a lot of people will jump in and start arguing, well, it's a public area, so they could be wherever they want to do wherever they want without even understanding the rules or regulations in place. I think as a blanket rule. I don't know why this particular situation would need any kind of unique analysis. It would be the same as all protests. If you're in a private college, I understanding that they can remove you whenever they want. It's private property. If you're in a state funded or public university, then there are certain areas that are supposed to remain open to the public and they can't remove you unless you are not there in an ordinary manner. If you're disrupting some of their event. I don't say anything about these particulars at a protest that would call for any type of unique analysis that escapes like that fundamental rule to protests in the United States in.

To wait till the ust settles on this because I hear so many different things about how students were all being peaceful. I've seen obviously the videos of like some of the stuff being broken into. I think that when it comes to an analysis of how to respond to these particular events, I think that the start and stop needs to be what are the rules and regulations in place? Because a lot of people will jump in and start arguing, well, it's a public area, so they could be wherever they want to do wherever they want without even understanding the rules or regulations in place. I think as a blanket rule. I don't know why this particular situation would need any kind of unique analysis. It would be the same as all protests. If you're in a private college, I understanding that they can remove you whenever they want. It's private property. If you're in a state funded or public university, then there are certain areas that are supposed to remain open to the public and they can't remove you unless you are not there in an ordinary manner. If you're disrupting some of their event. I don't say anything about these particulars at a protest that would call for any type of unique analysis that escapes like that fundamental rule to protests in the United States in.

Your fundamental rule, then, to quote tweet with.

Your fundamental rule, then, to quote tweet with.

The Kerosene, I thought it was insane that you had delusional people, especially young children in the United States, that don't know any part of this conflict whatsoever, which is probably the vast majority of people protesting it. That people are celebrating people setting themselves on fire, that is just unbelievable to me. You saw a guy do it in front of a I think one of the New York City courthouses for the Trump stuff. You saw the Aaron Bushnell guide do it for who knows what reason, I guess because you thought the whole world wasn't already paying attention to this issue. And yeah, the idea of people ever celebrating themselves in a democratic first world country setting themselves on fire for an issue that already has an unlimited amount of international attention unbelievably stupid to me.

The Kerosene, I thought it was insane that you had delusional people, especially young children in the United States, that don't know any part of this conflict whatsoever, which is probably the vast majority of people protesting it. That people are celebrating people setting themselves on fire, that is just unbelievable to me. You saw a guy do it in front of a I think one of the New York City courthouses for the Trump stuff. You saw the Aaron Bushnell guide do it for who knows what reason, I guess because you thought the whole world wasn't already paying attention to this issue. And yeah, the idea of people ever celebrating themselves in a democratic first world country setting themselves on fire for an issue that already has an unlimited amount of international attention unbelievably stupid to me.

But how does it relate to this particular instance. I mean, this is a bunch of Jewish students celebrating with pro Palestinian students Overpassover and talking about a climate in which they're coming together, Like why did you decide to drag the Bushnell thing into this?

But how does it relate to this particular instance. I mean, this is a bunch of Jewish students celebrating with pro Palestinian students Overpassover and talking about a climate in which they're coming together, Like why did you decide to drag the Bushnell thing into this?

That's the one I think it's funny when people disingenuously load phrases like, oh, all the Jewish people are protesting with these people, there are so many jewishroople. That's not true. The last few research things I saw I think We're twenty twenty three shows like ninety percent of people who are Jewish support the existence of Israel. So the idea that there's a huge group of Israel.

That's the one I think it's funny when people disingenuously load phrases like, oh, all the Jewish people are protesting with these people, there are so many jewishroople. That's not true. The last few research things I saw I think We're twenty twenty three shows like ninety percent of people who are Jewish support the existence of Israel. So the idea that there's a huge group of Israel.

All over the Jewish people, Yeah, this is not about the existence of Israel. There's no question about the fact that so many of these protests leader are in fact Jewish. These groups, they're not imaginary, They're not a figment of your imagination. You can actually go see them and look at how large their gatherings are, how lot of their voices have been That people who are getting arrested in Congress, so many of them are progressive Jewish organizations that are leading this effort. This is not about some broader what are the views of American Jews about the existence of Israel.

All over the Jewish people, Yeah, this is not about the existence of Israel. There's no question about the fact that so many of these protests leader are in fact Jewish. These groups, they're not imaginary, They're not a figment of your imagination. You can actually go see them and look at how large their gatherings are, how lot of their voices have been That people who are getting arrested in Congress, so many of them are progressive Jewish organizations that are leading this effort. This is not about some broader what are the views of American Jews about the existence of Israel.

We're just what now we're protests about.

We're just what now we're protests about.

The protests are about ending the slaughter of the children of Gaza. That's what the protests are about. What do you mean, what does it look like?

The protests are about ending the slaughter of the children of Gaza. That's what the protests are about. What do you mean, what does it look like?

What is the end condition of the It's not just ending the slaughter, it's also stopping the blockade. It's also reaching a just resolution to the Palestadian conflict. It's also probably the unlimited right of return of six million refugees. It's probably the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish majority state. It's probably the create like I mean.

What is the end condition of the It's not just ending the slaughter, it's also stopping the blockade. It's also reaching a just resolution to the Palestadian conflict. It's also probably the unlimited right of return of six million refugees. It's probably the dissolution of Israel as a Jewish majority state. It's probably the create like I mean.

You're conflating a ton of different things. A lot of these protesters have varying views about this. Some of them support a two state solutions, some of them support a one state solution. But what's bringing everybody together in this moment is a realization that what Israel is doing to Gaza is absolutely unconfortable. That you slaughter people at that scale, that is is is clearly waging a war on the civilian population of Gaza. That's what these people are upset about, and they want it to come to an end and.

You're conflating a ton of different things. A lot of these protesters have varying views about this. Some of them support a two state solutions, some of them support a one state solution. But what's bringing everybody together in this moment is a realization that what Israel is doing to Gaza is absolutely unconfortable. That you slaughter people at that scale, that is is is clearly waging a war on the civilian population of Gaza. That's what these people are upset about, and they want it to come to an end and.

The specific thing that they're protesting and maybe, well, we could actually find something to agree on here because I've seen you describe yourself as kind of a moderate who tries to balance the extremists on each side here. So the specific thing the protesters are arguing for all of these different campuses is opening up the books of their basically the hedge funds that run their universities, and divesting from firms that are either linked to the war in Gaza or link to Israel. More generally, Brown University reach an agreement with its protesters that they would they would abandon their encampment in exchange for a vote in October to divest from that. That gets to the question of resistance and the right to resistance, And so for years it has been the kind of policy of the right here and a lot of the center here in the United States to make it illegal to try to ban people from participating in boycotts or divestment efforts or lobbying for sanctions against Israel. At the same time, you say, well, armed resistance is clearly off off the table. So if you rule out both, you'd only leave people with one option. So even if you don't support boycotting or divesting from Israel, do you support the right of people here in the United States?

The specific thing that they're protesting and maybe, well, we could actually find something to agree on here because I've seen you describe yourself as kind of a moderate who tries to balance the extremists on each side here. So the specific thing the protesters are arguing for all of these different campuses is opening up the books of their basically the hedge funds that run their universities, and divesting from firms that are either linked to the war in Gaza or link to Israel. More generally, Brown University reach an agreement with its protesters that they would they would abandon their encampment in exchange for a vote in October to divest from that. That gets to the question of resistance and the right to resistance, And so for years it has been the kind of policy of the right here and a lot of the center here in the United States to make it illegal to try to ban people from participating in boycotts or divestment efforts or lobbying for sanctions against Israel. At the same time, you say, well, armed resistance is clearly off off the table. So if you rule out both, you'd only leave people with one option. So even if you don't support boycotting or divesting from Israel, do you support the right of people here in the United States?

To to check right explicit for how states have banned some of the BDS participation. As a fundamental right to boycott, I think in the United States you should always have the right to boycott everything except for our currency. I think, yeah, you have the right to boycott whatever you want. I don't know why that should ever be made illegal, but I know that in particular things are we going at that BDS stuff that I think states look at. But yeah, of course you should always have the right. I wish that the people that would talk about conditioning support for Israel, though, would also talk about conditioning support for Palestine, because there are some of the highest recipients of aid in the world per capita, the United States trip it's a lot of that aid. It's interesting to me that it seems like we're always talking about how we need to condition aid in congratulations, Congress just banned all funding of ENRA. So yeah, I have seen that.

To to check right explicit for how states have banned some of the BDS participation. As a fundamental right to boycott, I think in the United States you should always have the right to boycott everything except for our currency. I think, yeah, you have the right to boycott whatever you want. I don't know why that should ever be made illegal, but I know that in particular things are we going at that BDS stuff that I think states look at. But yeah, of course you should always have the right. I wish that the people that would talk about conditioning support for Israel, though, would also talk about conditioning support for Palestine, because there are some of the highest recipients of aid in the world per capita, the United States trip it's a lot of that aid. It's interesting to me that it seems like we're always talking about how we need to condition aid in congratulations, Congress just banned all funding of ENRA. So yeah, I have seen that.

Well so actually, because Stephen raised an interesting point that what's the kind of end goal of the protesters after BDS in the service of what you know, what does.

Well so actually, because Stephen raised an interesting point that what's the kind of end goal of the protesters after BDS in the service of what you know, what does.

That look like to one state solution where Jews of the minority.

That look like to one state solution where Jews of the minority.

Well, so you said earlier that you know, it's it sort of depends on whatever video you're looking at, that this is an anti semitic mob or peaceful protesters, And I think that's actually true. There's videos showing all kinds of different things, which is part of the issue of piecing together these stories via social media. So if that, if the one state solution is kind of the ultimate goal of the people that are protesting for BDS, what is your like do you think they're fundamentally anti Semitic? Do you think they're fundamentally Are they, from your perspective, just mistaken, misguided, or are they bigoted?

Well, so you said earlier that you know, it's it sort of depends on whatever video you're looking at, that this is an anti semitic mob or peaceful protesters, And I think that's actually true. There's videos showing all kinds of different things, which is part of the issue of piecing together these stories via social media. So if that, if the one state solution is kind of the ultimate goal of the people that are protesting for BDS, what is your like do you think they're fundamentally anti Semitic? Do you think they're fundamentally Are they, from your perspective, just mistaken, misguided, or are they bigoted?

I don't care. Trying to start out, like the difference between like anti semitism and anti zi is almost impossible, and in practice the two look almost identical sometimes, so the obsession of trying to figure out, like, what is the driving thing here between anti semitism versus anti Zionism, I think in some cases it's good to find differences. So some people are discriminatory against poor people, some people are discriminatory against certain races of people, and figuring out the difference here is really important when it comes to antisemitism versus anti Zionism. In regards to israel I think that the talking points of somebody who's an anti Zionists are indistinguishable from the talking points of somebody who is anti Semitics. So there are a lot.

I don't care. Trying to start out, like the difference between like anti semitism and anti zi is almost impossible, and in practice the two look almost identical sometimes, so the obsession of trying to figure out, like, what is the driving thing here between anti semitism versus anti Zionism, I think in some cases it's good to find differences. So some people are discriminatory against poor people, some people are discriminatory against certain races of people, and figuring out the difference here is really important when it comes to antisemitism versus anti Zionism. In regards to israel I think that the talking points of somebody who's an anti Zionists are indistinguishable from the talking points of somebody who is anti Semitics. So there are a lot.

Of Israelis who don't support the net Yahoo policy.

Of Israelis who don't support the net Yahoo policy.

That's but that's not anti Zionism such that they want a one state solution. Even Palestinians don't want a one state solution.

That's but that's not anti Zionism such that they want a one state solution. Even Palestinians don't want a one state solution.

It's utterly grotesque to conflate those two things. Opposition to Zionism is opposition to the state of Israel the way it came into being at the expense of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who were driven out of their homes. And there is a different vision that instead of having a Jewish state that privilegius one particular group of people over another, that you have a vision for a state in which everybody is equal. Americans would be familiar with what that vision actually looks like. You remember the era of Jim Crow and what that meant. And people who are demanding a different kind of country in which everybody is equal. That's not the same as being anti white. It's absurd to even put these remotely in the same category. And can I just just if I can finish just on the point of BDS, BDS, also, by the way, has been clear about the fact that they don't take any particular political solution. It does certainly happen that a lot of BDS activists do support a one state solution, but that is not the position of BDS itself as a movement that is calling for boycotts in isolation. And just on the free speech angle, you have states all over the country that are passing laws that basically make it punishable to boycott not just Israel, but Israeli settlements that are built in the occupied territories, and those settlements are war crimes under international law. And so you have a situation in which this country, part of its founding, is that we celebrate boycotts of you know, as part of deep entrenched part of American culture, the boycott of British treat during the founding of the country, the Montgomery bus boycott during the Civil rights movement. And now you're saying that boycotting the war crimes of a foreign country is somehow punishable. People being denied the ability to work with state governments or schools or medical facilities or anything that is affiliated with the state. Those are transparently unconstitutional laws. They have been challenged by organizations like the ACLU, They have been defeated in court in many cases, but unfortunately they keep popping up faster than the rate at which you can challenge them.

It's utterly grotesque to conflate those two things. Opposition to Zionism is opposition to the state of Israel the way it came into being at the expense of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who were driven out of their homes. And there is a different vision that instead of having a Jewish state that privilegius one particular group of people over another, that you have a vision for a state in which everybody is equal. Americans would be familiar with what that vision actually looks like. You remember the era of Jim Crow and what that meant. And people who are demanding a different kind of country in which everybody is equal. That's not the same as being anti white. It's absurd to even put these remotely in the same category. And can I just just if I can finish just on the point of BDS, BDS, also, by the way, has been clear about the fact that they don't take any particular political solution. It does certainly happen that a lot of BDS activists do support a one state solution, but that is not the position of BDS itself as a movement that is calling for boycotts in isolation. And just on the free speech angle, you have states all over the country that are passing laws that basically make it punishable to boycott not just Israel, but Israeli settlements that are built in the occupied territories, and those settlements are war crimes under international law. And so you have a situation in which this country, part of its founding, is that we celebrate boycotts of you know, as part of deep entrenched part of American culture, the boycott of British treat during the founding of the country, the Montgomery bus boycott during the Civil rights movement. And now you're saying that boycotting the war crimes of a foreign country is somehow punishable. People being denied the ability to work with state governments or schools or medical facilities or anything that is affiliated with the state. Those are transparently unconstitutional laws. They have been challenged by organizations like the ACLU, They have been defeated in court in many cases, but unfortunately they keep popping up faster than the rate at which you can challenge them.

And that's a serious crisis.

And that's a serious crisis.

Anybody who's serious about being committed to free speech and saying that Americans should be able to exercise the right to boycott, including when it comes to Israel or Israel's atrocities, that's an absolutely critical issue that we're not talking enough about. That you have the power of the state being used to silence people's right to free speech.

Anybody who's serious about being committed to free speech and saying that Americans should be able to exercise the right to boycott, including when it comes to Israel or Israel's atrocities, that's an absolutely critical issue that we're not talking enough about. That you have the power of the state being used to silence people's right to free speech.

And I think that's a really important angle.

And I think that's a really important angle.

I want to move to the conduct of the war by Israel pretty soon. But and the one state verse two state question, isn't it the case that the current Israeli government position is one state? There's a complete rejection across the board of a Palestinian state river to the sea.

I want to move to the conduct of the war by Israel pretty soon. But and the one state verse two state question, isn't it the case that the current Israeli government position is one state? There's a complete rejection across the board of a Palestinian state river to the sea.

So yeah, I think the Lakud platform is essentially always said as much.

So yeah, I think the Lakud platform is essentially always said as much.

Yeah, So okay, so a more agreement like you're you're you oppose that, you think that why I oppose it?

Yeah, So okay, so a more agreement like you're you're you oppose that, you think that why I oppose it?

He's in favor of the one state where the Jews live as a minority in that state. Yeah.

He's in favor of the one state where the Jews live as a minority in that state. Yeah.

No, Just to be clear, Theaho government and the liqud are in favor of a one state in which Jews are privileged over Palestinians, with Palestinians occupying multi tiers. If you're a citizen of Israel, have a certain amount of rights. If you're in the West Bank, you get this many rights. And if you're in Gaza, you're completely under siege and there's nothing that you can do, which is in my country country, my vision of a one state, they have more rights than Yeah. Well, in those countries, you don't permanently occupy those people and prevent them from having any rights and deny them citizenship as well. And that's the fundamental problem is that Israel's vision is Palestinians can never be free, they can get their own state, and they can't live as equals within Israel. So your status is just to be permanently occupied and helpless without rights. And that's a vision that I think is absolutely nobody who has a conscience can actually support. And my vision of a one state would be one in which everybody actually has equal rights and everybody can live equally precisely the way that we live in the United States.

No, Just to be clear, Theaho government and the liqud are in favor of a one state in which Jews are privileged over Palestinians, with Palestinians occupying multi tiers. If you're a citizen of Israel, have a certain amount of rights. If you're in the West Bank, you get this many rights. And if you're in Gaza, you're completely under siege and there's nothing that you can do, which is in my country country, my vision of a one state, they have more rights than Yeah. Well, in those countries, you don't permanently occupy those people and prevent them from having any rights and deny them citizenship as well. And that's the fundamental problem is that Israel's vision is Palestinians can never be free, they can get their own state, and they can't live as equals within Israel. So your status is just to be permanently occupied and helpless without rights. And that's a vision that I think is absolutely nobody who has a conscience can actually support. And my vision of a one state would be one in which everybody actually has equal rights and everybody can live equally precisely the way that we live in the United States.

Which is a really fun position to take in the West when we have like no stake in the game. I think it's fun to scream that at protest. I think it's fun to go on Twitter and do that. I think at the end of the day, that type of rhetoric is ultimately destructive to Palestinians because everybody knows that that's never happening. It's a pipe dream. Less than thirty percent of Palestinians are in favor of a singular state where Jews and Arabs have the exact same rights. Literally, nobody wants that. People in Israel don't want that. It's literally you're just virtue signaling and paying lip service to an idea that is grossly unpopular across the entirety of Israel and Palestine. Not only that, the idea that you would have a singular state created where six million Palestinian refugees are then brought back into the state. There's no shot that any Jewish person living there, who has lived through the second in Nevada, who has lived through Hamas attacks, who's lived through hasib law attacks, who's lived through international support for who the attacks, is going to feel safe in such a state and they know that there would be absolutely no intern national support for them if that state were created. And Jews want to start getting slaughtered en mass there, let's.

Which is a really fun position to take in the West when we have like no stake in the game. I think it's fun to scream that at protest. I think it's fun to go on Twitter and do that. I think at the end of the day, that type of rhetoric is ultimately destructive to Palestinians because everybody knows that that's never happening. It's a pipe dream. Less than thirty percent of Palestinians are in favor of a singular state where Jews and Arabs have the exact same rights. Literally, nobody wants that. People in Israel don't want that. It's literally you're just virtue signaling and paying lip service to an idea that is grossly unpopular across the entirety of Israel and Palestine. Not only that, the idea that you would have a singular state created where six million Palestinian refugees are then brought back into the state. There's no shot that any Jewish person living there, who has lived through the second in Nevada, who has lived through Hamas attacks, who's lived through hasib law attacks, who's lived through international support for who the attacks, is going to feel safe in such a state and they know that there would be absolutely no intern national support for them if that state were created. And Jews want to start getting slaughtered en mass there, let's.

Past it to Omar with that for a response. And also I'll sort of add to that, maybe they narrow it down a little bit. What is then let's say, you know, hypothetically, would take the best faith argument not from net Yahoo, but let's say Israeli citizen who's both concerned about their safety and concerned about net Yahu's leadership. What does the path towards peace from the perspective of an Israeli what does that look like when they see the level of support for Hamas. And we can obviously get into why so many people in Palestine feel like they need to support Hamas.

Past it to Omar with that for a response. And also I'll sort of add to that, maybe they narrow it down a little bit. What is then let's say, you know, hypothetically, would take the best faith argument not from net Yahoo, but let's say Israeli citizen who's both concerned about their safety and concerned about net Yahu's leadership. What does the path towards peace from the perspective of an Israeli what does that look like when they see the level of support for Hamas. And we can obviously get into why so many people in Palestine feel like they need to support Hamas.

Yeah, and a way you're putting your finger on the problem precisely. I mean, Israel is upset that there's so much hostility towards them. But the reason there's so much hostility is because of the way that they have been treated Palestinians for a decade. After a decade, just the level of brutality that Palestinians have experienced under occupation has been absolutely horrific.

Yeah, and a way you're putting your finger on the problem precisely. I mean, Israel is upset that there's so much hostility towards them. But the reason there's so much hostility is because of the way that they have been treated Palestinians for a decade. After a decade, just the level of brutality that Palestinians have experienced under occupation has been absolutely horrific.

And you know, when you talk about the.

And you know, when you talk about the.

Prospects for peace, there was a time in which Palestinians recognized that they there's a significant power deferential that they can't actually get freedom from the river to the sea in their own homeland, and there was an indulgence of the idea that maybe we can have a two state compromise in which Palestinians would only get the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, which is about one fifth of the entire territory of their historic homeland, and Israel gets to keep the other four fifths. That from Palastinian's perspective, is a massive Palaestinian compromise bending over backwards to facilitate some kind of two states. And all what Israel was required to do is not grant Palestinian some sort of favor, but simply comply with international law by withdrawing from the occupied territories that are obligated to do that. Anyway, the occupied territories do not belong to Israel. And during this period, Palaestinian support for peace with Israel was skyrocketed. Public opinion show that their significant support for a two state.

Prospects for peace, there was a time in which Palestinians recognized that they there's a significant power deferential that they can't actually get freedom from the river to the sea in their own homeland, and there was an indulgence of the idea that maybe we can have a two state compromise in which Palestinians would only get the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, which is about one fifth of the entire territory of their historic homeland, and Israel gets to keep the other four fifths. That from Palastinian's perspective, is a massive Palaestinian compromise bending over backwards to facilitate some kind of two states. And all what Israel was required to do is not grant Palestinian some sort of favor, but simply comply with international law by withdrawing from the occupied territories that are obligated to do that. Anyway, the occupied territories do not belong to Israel. And during this period, Palaestinian support for peace with Israel was skyrocketed. Public opinion show that their significant support for a two state.

Solution amass way down. Even though Hamas was trying to destabilize the situation at the time committing acts of violence, they did not enjoy any support among Palestinians. It is only when it became.

Solution amass way down. Even though Hamas was trying to destabilize the situation at the time committing acts of violence, they did not enjoy any support among Palestinians. It is only when it became.

Clear that Israel has no interest whatsoever and allowing Palestinians to have a state and spent the entire so called peace process building more and more and more settlements, just expanding them throughout the occupied Palestinian territories, where Palestinians saw the prospect for a Palestinian state shrinking by the day. On the ground, they understood that this entire process was a sham, and the fact that Israeli restrictions were increasing, Israeli violence was ongoing, it became clear that this was not going to be a path to in which Palestinians can get a real state. And that's when you got the shift in public opinion back in terms of supporting for armed resistance as the only way, because clearly Israel could not be talked into seeing Palestinians as equal human beings and granting them.

Clear that Israel has no interest whatsoever and allowing Palestinians to have a state and spent the entire so called peace process building more and more and more settlements, just expanding them throughout the occupied Palestinian territories, where Palestinians saw the prospect for a Palestinian state shrinking by the day. On the ground, they understood that this entire process was a sham, and the fact that Israeli restrictions were increasing, Israeli violence was ongoing, it became clear that this was not going to be a path to in which Palestinians can get a real state. And that's when you got the shift in public opinion back in terms of supporting for armed resistance as the only way, because clearly Israel could not be talked into seeing Palestinians as equal human beings and granting them.

But then what now, Well, a shorter version maybe for Stephen to respond to is that the way to defeat Hamas is through peace, not war.

But then what now, Well, a shorter version maybe for Stephen to respond to is that the way to defeat Hamas is through peace, not war.

What's wrong with that? It sounds really brutal, But the issue is that the unlimited amount of international support for the Palestinians means that the Palestinians will never look to peace. They shouldn't. They always have an unlimited reservoir internationally of people who will encourage the delusions that if they continue to fight, they're going to get a better deal. It's the reason why they walked away in two thousand from Camp David, is the reason why they walked away from the tap of Summit. Is the reason why a boss walked away in two thousand and eight from O Mert. It is the reason why the Oslo Courts were never negotiated in ninety three. That period of violence that he's talking about from ninety three to two thousand, where the Israelis were continuing to expand settleents into the West Bank, is true. But Palestinians also continue to engage in terrorist activities. A lot of people didn't trust Arafat because Arafat would sign on to a deal for the Oslo Courts and then we'd go over to Switzerland and he'd make speeches in universities about how like, yeah, we're good to this now, but you know we're going to get them as as soon as we got a little bit, we're going to take more, which is ironically what they've accused is real of doing for the past one hundred years. I think that in order for this conflict to actually start to reach some kind of resolution, I think that, again, it sounds mean, but Palestinians need to feel like they have something at stake, and it looks like they do. But in reality, politically, Palestinians have never lost anything because people continue to make them feel as though they can always go back to borders that existed eighty years ago. People will constantly say, you just said it here, Well, what's the fair thing? They only want to a sliver of this land, one fifth of the territory. Yeah, they tried like three, four or five different wars to get more and they lost. You can't continue to go back to the first try over and over and over again and demand the deal that was on the table before you walked away from the partition plan in forty seven. You can't go to war five times and then keep going back to another set of borders. There are always one generation behind when it comes to accepting some type of actual peace deal. So as long as Palestinians have people like Ohmar internationally that will support them in an unlimited delusion to fight forever, plistiness will never try to accept these and they shouldn't. They really should. There's no reason to.

What's wrong with that? It sounds really brutal, But the issue is that the unlimited amount of international support for the Palestinians means that the Palestinians will never look to peace. They shouldn't. They always have an unlimited reservoir internationally of people who will encourage the delusions that if they continue to fight, they're going to get a better deal. It's the reason why they walked away in two thousand from Camp David, is the reason why they walked away from the tap of Summit. Is the reason why a boss walked away in two thousand and eight from O Mert. It is the reason why the Oslo Courts were never negotiated in ninety three. That period of violence that he's talking about from ninety three to two thousand, where the Israelis were continuing to expand settleents into the West Bank, is true. But Palestinians also continue to engage in terrorist activities. A lot of people didn't trust Arafat because Arafat would sign on to a deal for the Oslo Courts and then we'd go over to Switzerland and he'd make speeches in universities about how like, yeah, we're good to this now, but you know we're going to get them as as soon as we got a little bit, we're going to take more, which is ironically what they've accused is real of doing for the past one hundred years. I think that in order for this conflict to actually start to reach some kind of resolution, I think that, again, it sounds mean, but Palestinians need to feel like they have something at stake, and it looks like they do. But in reality, politically, Palestinians have never lost anything because people continue to make them feel as though they can always go back to borders that existed eighty years ago. People will constantly say, you just said it here, Well, what's the fair thing? They only want to a sliver of this land, one fifth of the territory. Yeah, they tried like three, four or five different wars to get more and they lost. You can't continue to go back to the first try over and over and over again and demand the deal that was on the table before you walked away from the partition plan in forty seven. You can't go to war five times and then keep going back to another set of borders. There are always one generation behind when it comes to accepting some type of actual peace deal. So as long as Palestinians have people like Ohmar internationally that will support them in an unlimited delusion to fight forever, plistiness will never try to accept these and they shouldn't. They really should. There's no reason to.

In one sense, if you have public polling that shows some seventy percent this was from a Palestinian polling firm in December, seventy two percent supported what happened on October seventh. So and we can talk about why, and we will, I'm sure. So with all of that said, what now, what if you you know, if you were in charge of Israeli foreign policy in a hypothetical sense, And I think this will be a response to what Stephen just said, what happens now to get to a position where, to your point, there can be justice.

In one sense, if you have public polling that shows some seventy percent this was from a Palestinian polling firm in December, seventy two percent supported what happened on October seventh. So and we can talk about why, and we will, I'm sure. So with all of that said, what now, what if you you know, if you were in charge of Israeli foreign policy in a hypothetical sense, And I think this will be a response to what Stephen just said, what happens now to get to a position where, to your point, there can be justice.

I'm happy to address that, but it just I have to go back to a particular point. The idea that Palestinians are rejectionist because they have so much international support, I think is just thoroughly absurd. Palestinians are paying an unbelievable cost every single day their lives are completely brutalized under occupation, and the idea that they see no cost of continuing to fighting on forever.

I'm happy to address that, but it just I have to go back to a particular point. The idea that Palestinians are rejectionist because they have so much international support, I think is just thoroughly absurd. Palestinians are paying an unbelievable cost every single day their lives are completely brutalized under occupation, and the idea that they see no cost of continuing to fighting on forever.

It's just completely ridiculous. It's detached from reality.

It's just completely ridiculous. It's detached from reality.

It's as if you're unaware of what Palatine conditions are under Israeli occupation, the reason why they were willing to bend over backwards. I mean, if you look at the history of negotiations, you look at the Palestine papers that got leaked shortly after I think back in the mid two thousands, it's obvious that Palestinians were bending over backwards to try to make that deal work, and Israel insisted on expanding more and more settlements. And yes, you can say that Palestinian violence was ongoing at the time, but so is Israeli violence. I mean the attack that happened on the mosque in Hebron where thirty Palestinians, nearly thirty Palaestinis were killed by a Jewish terrorist named Baru Goldstein. That happened during the so called peace process, and Israel responded by putting Palestinians in Hebron under curfew to prevent any possible retaliation. Those are theitions, but nobody looks at that incident and says, oh, well, there was Israeli violence, Therefore the Israelis, you know, we're not.

It's as if you're unaware of what Palatine conditions are under Israeli occupation, the reason why they were willing to bend over backwards. I mean, if you look at the history of negotiations, you look at the Palestine papers that got leaked shortly after I think back in the mid two thousands, it's obvious that Palestinians were bending over backwards to try to make that deal work, and Israel insisted on expanding more and more settlements. And yes, you can say that Palestinian violence was ongoing at the time, but so is Israeli violence. I mean the attack that happened on the mosque in Hebron where thirty Palestinians, nearly thirty Palaestinis were killed by a Jewish terrorist named Baru Goldstein. That happened during the so called peace process, and Israel responded by putting Palestinians in Hebron under curfew to prevent any possible retaliation. Those are theitions, but nobody looks at that incident and says, oh, well, there was Israeli violence, Therefore the Israelis, you know, we're not.

That's the reason why the.

That's the reason why the.

Point I'm making.

Point I'm making.

The point i'm making is that this is besides the point that, yes, we can point to individual atrocities, and that does not change the fact that throughout the peace process, if Israel were genuinely interested in allowing for a Palestinian state to exist, they would not have spent the entire soul called.

The point i'm making is that this is besides the point that, yes, we can point to individual atrocities, and that does not change the fact that throughout the peace process, if Israel were genuinely interested in allowing for a Palestinian state to exist, they would not have spent the entire soul called.

Peace process taking up more and more and more of the West BacT. So it's the disingenuous.

Peace process taking up more and more and more of the West BacT. So it's the disingenuous.

Nature of of of of Israeli policy that that's the reason why this is a problem.

Nature of of of of Israeli policy that that's the reason why this is a problem.

Now to your point of what now.

Now to your point of what now.

Going to say they are genuinely interested in the peace process and you're you're.

Going to say they are genuinely interested in the peace process and you're you're.

In charge, Yeah, so what do they do right now?

In charge, Yeah, so what do they do right now?

We have a situation right there is a problem of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians support groups like Hamas. You have a majority of people in Israel, overwhelming majority support the most vicious policies of the Nathaniaho government and just carrying on, and they think that they're not going far enough in Gaza and so on, and that just it's it's important to note that hatred is a symptom.

We have a situation right there is a problem of the fact that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians support groups like Hamas. You have a majority of people in Israel, overwhelming majority support the most vicious policies of the Nathaniaho government and just carrying on, and they think that they're not going far enough in Gaza and so on, and that just it's it's important to note that hatred is a symptom.

Of the conflict and not the cause of it. People get this stuff backwards.

Of the conflict and not the cause of it. People get this stuff backwards.

When you think of apartheid in South Africa, there was plenty of hostility and we eventually had a reconciliation process between white and black people in South Africa, but only after apartheid fell. That's when you can have reconciliation. But the idea that you can try to work on how people feel about each other in the midst of one side occupying the other, controlling every aspect of their lives and brutalizing them day in and day out.

When you think of apartheid in South Africa, there was plenty of hostility and we eventually had a reconciliation process between white and black people in South Africa, but only after apartheid fell. That's when you can have reconciliation. But the idea that you can try to work on how people feel about each other in the midst of one side occupying the other, controlling every aspect of their lives and brutalizing them day in and day out.

There's no surprise that there are hostile feelings. And yes, when Palestinians do respond with violence, Israelis who are out of touch with the reasons why all of this is happening, are going to develop hostile feelings as well.

There's no surprise that there are hostile feelings. And yes, when Palestinians do respond with violence, Israelis who are out of touch with the reasons why all of this is happening, are going to develop hostile feelings as well.

This is a moment in which the international community has to step in. This is not about making Israelis and Palestinians like each other right now. This is about making sure that one side does not get to dominate the other until the end of time and the status quo leading up to October seventh is one in which Israel dominated every aspect of Palestinian life. So you can say, yes, both sides hate each other, but one side is in charge of everything. One side gets to decide whether they want to put the people of Gaza on a diet, as they were talking about, you know, when they first imposed the siege on Gaza. Just Palestinians don't get to decide how much fruit Israelis get. They don't get to demolish Israeli homes will whenever they feel like it. They don't get to humiliate Israelis a checkpoints day in and day out. So because there's a dynamic in which one side is imposing an illegal occupation over another people and taking over their land, that has to come to an end, and you can bring it to an end through international pressure, primarily from the United States as the country that has the most leverage over Israel, to say not another penny until that occupation ends. And when that occupation comes to an end, we can talk about sorting out the exact specifics of how we get more conciliation and.

This is a moment in which the international community has to step in. This is not about making Israelis and Palestinians like each other right now. This is about making sure that one side does not get to dominate the other until the end of time and the status quo leading up to October seventh is one in which Israel dominated every aspect of Palestinian life. So you can say, yes, both sides hate each other, but one side is in charge of everything. One side gets to decide whether they want to put the people of Gaza on a diet, as they were talking about, you know, when they first imposed the siege on Gaza. Just Palestinians don't get to decide how much fruit Israelis get. They don't get to demolish Israeli homes will whenever they feel like it. They don't get to humiliate Israelis a checkpoints day in and day out. So because there's a dynamic in which one side is imposing an illegal occupation over another people and taking over their land, that has to come to an end, and you can bring it to an end through international pressure, primarily from the United States as the country that has the most leverage over Israel, to say not another penny until that occupation ends. And when that occupation comes to an end, we can talk about sorting out the exact specifics of how we get more conciliation and.

Cooperation between Palestinians and Israelis.

Cooperation between Palestinians and Israelis.

And when it comes to international support for Palestinians. There's one side that has had the international support of the world's great superpower and right the political and military support as well Israel.

And when it comes to international support for Palestinians. There's one side that has had the international support of the world's great superpower and right the political and military support as well Israel.

What about the Soviet Unius supporting the Soviet Union has had a very complicated relationship unions states before the United States and truly also Aroun until about sixty six sixteen.

What about the Soviet Unius supporting the Soviet Union has had a very complicated relationship unions states before the United States and truly also Aroun until about sixty six sixteen.

Some union also hasn't been here since nineteen ninety.

Some union also hasn't been here since nineteen ninety.

But the conflict also didn't start after the ninety one, after the collapse of the Sovietnion.

But the conflict also didn't start after the ninety one, after the collapse of the Sovietnion.

But the point is that Israel has had a lot of agency, and Benjamin Netyaho in particular, as you know, the Prime minister for most of the last what twenty five thirty years, has had an extraordinary amount of agency as well. And I wanted to read to you a piece of an essay published in how Retz recently by Israeli historian Yuval Noah Hararia. He writes, given the murderous nature of Hamas this time, its allies gave Israel free reign for many months to conquer Gaza, liberate the Israeli hostages, changed the situation in the Strip according to Israel's best judgment, and create a new order in the region. The netn Yahoo government wasted this historic opportunity and also wasted the bravery and dedication of the soldiers of the IDF. The net Yahoo government failed to exploit its battlefield victories to reach an agreement on the release of all the hostages and to advance an alternative political order in Gaza. Instead, it decided to knowingly inflict on Gaza an unnecessary humanitarian disaster, and in so doing inflicted on Israel an unnecessary political disaster. One by one, our allies have become horrified by what is happening in Gaza, and one by one they are calling for an immediate ceasefire and even for a weapons embargo on Israel. Even during the worst moments of October seventh, Hamas was nowhere near vanquishing Israel. But the ruinous policy of the net Yahoo government following October seventh has placed Israel in existential danger. So, when I ask you, it seems like a pretty fundamental irony that if Israel had listened to critics like Omar and myself after October seventh, who warned against enacting violence just for the purposes of revenge and potentially for ethnic cleansing, of Gaza, they would ironically, in paradoxly be in a much stronger global strategic political position than they are now where they're facing not just isolation, but charges before the ICJ and potentially before the ICC. So are they making a mistake and following kind of the more bellicose advice that they're getting from their so called allies.

But the point is that Israel has had a lot of agency, and Benjamin Netyaho in particular, as you know, the Prime minister for most of the last what twenty five thirty years, has had an extraordinary amount of agency as well. And I wanted to read to you a piece of an essay published in how Retz recently by Israeli historian Yuval Noah Hararia. He writes, given the murderous nature of Hamas this time, its allies gave Israel free reign for many months to conquer Gaza, liberate the Israeli hostages, changed the situation in the Strip according to Israel's best judgment, and create a new order in the region. The netn Yahoo government wasted this historic opportunity and also wasted the bravery and dedication of the soldiers of the IDF. The net Yahoo government failed to exploit its battlefield victories to reach an agreement on the release of all the hostages and to advance an alternative political order in Gaza. Instead, it decided to knowingly inflict on Gaza an unnecessary humanitarian disaster, and in so doing inflicted on Israel an unnecessary political disaster. One by one, our allies have become horrified by what is happening in Gaza, and one by one they are calling for an immediate ceasefire and even for a weapons embargo on Israel. Even during the worst moments of October seventh, Hamas was nowhere near vanquishing Israel. But the ruinous policy of the net Yahoo government following October seventh has placed Israel in existential danger. So, when I ask you, it seems like a pretty fundamental irony that if Israel had listened to critics like Omar and myself after October seventh, who warned against enacting violence just for the purposes of revenge and potentially for ethnic cleansing, of Gaza, they would ironically, in paradoxly be in a much stronger global strategic political position than they are now where they're facing not just isolation, but charges before the ICJ and potentially before the ICC. So are they making a mistake and following kind of the more bellicose advice that they're getting from their so called allies.

That's a touching essay. Who was the alternative order politically besides Hamas that would have risen up in the Gaza Strip. If there was an alternative political order, I would love to hear it. Even in the West Bank. There's a reason why a boss suspended elections twenty years ago. Even in the West Bank, Hamas enjoys pretty broad support. I mean their answers to this question, and it's not rhetorical.

That's a touching essay. Who was the alternative order politically besides Hamas that would have risen up in the Gaza Strip. If there was an alternative political order, I would love to hear it. Even in the West Bank. There's a reason why a boss suspended elections twenty years ago. Even in the West Bank, Hamas enjoys pretty broad support. I mean their answers to this question, and it's not rhetorical.

Do you want to take that?

Do you want to take that?

I mean, well, hold on, wait wait, But before he does it, also to elaborate a bit on the military objectives, I think Hamas needs to go. I don't think that there's any future that happens where Israel can negotiate anything, whether it's peace or war, with Hamas remaining as the government in the Gaza Strip. I don't think any of the surrounding Arab states wanted Hamas to remain as the government in the Gaza strip. It's a disaster. You've had a series of conflicts. In two thousand and eight you had kind of led, twenty fourteen you had Protective Edge, twenty eighteen you had the response to the Great March of Return, and now in twenty twenty three you had a massive attack on October seventh. The idea that you would just allow them to stay here after spending at least a year preparing for what was probably I think the single largest day of violence against Jesus the Holocaust, it would be that's an untenable position. I don't think a single other country, a person in all of the history would be asked to keep a government like that in play.

I mean, well, hold on, wait wait, But before he does it, also to elaborate a bit on the military objectives, I think Hamas needs to go. I don't think that there's any future that happens where Israel can negotiate anything, whether it's peace or war, with Hamas remaining as the government in the Gaza Strip. I don't think any of the surrounding Arab states wanted Hamas to remain as the government in the Gaza strip. It's a disaster. You've had a series of conflicts. In two thousand and eight you had kind of led, twenty fourteen you had Protective Edge, twenty eighteen you had the response to the Great March of Return, and now in twenty twenty three you had a massive attack on October seventh. The idea that you would just allow them to stay here after spending at least a year preparing for what was probably I think the single largest day of violence against Jesus the Holocaust, it would be that's an untenable position. I don't think a single other country, a person in all of the history would be asked to keep a government like that in play.

Well, we paused for one second on the quote response to the Great March of Return. For people who don't know, the Great March of Return was a civil society led Gaza initiative that was a nonviolent demonstration where every Friday, people would meet and kind of march to the fence, you know, symbolically gazing out at land that had been that they had lost over the years. The idea of responded by killing a pretty significant amount of Palestinians, but also maiming tens of thousands, to the point where.

Well, we paused for one second on the quote response to the Great March of Return. For people who don't know, the Great March of Return was a civil society led Gaza initiative that was a nonviolent demonstration where every Friday, people would meet and kind of march to the fence, you know, symbolically gazing out at land that had been that they had lost over the years. The idea of responded by killing a pretty significant amount of Palestinians, but also maiming tens of thousands, to the point where.

The UN.

The UN.

The UN put out a report noting that it had become commonplace to see people walking around with one leg missing a leg missing an arm. There were IDF soldiers who said we were told shoot out the legs.

The UN put out a report noting that it had become commonplace to see people walking around with one leg missing a leg missing an arm. There were IDF soldiers who said we were told shoot out the legs.

You know.

You know.

One guy said he hit like forty plus legs in a single day. Hamas opposed this at the start because it was nonviolent, because it was civil society led. Hamas eventually caved under public pressure and ended up supporting the Great March Return, which I think goes to your question, what is the political order that can replace Hamas. If there is a non violent movement that can gain traction, then Hamas is defeated by that. Hamas is pressured into supporting that just by the kind of public support for it, like happened with the Great March Return. The Israeli response was not to say, Wow, let's embrace this non violent, civil society led movement and marginalize Hamas and reach a deal with this Palestinian force that could even see a unification between the West Bank and Gaza toward a long term peaceful solution. It was let's annihilate this, let's shoot and kill and maim the peaceful protesters, which only then fortifies Hamasa's position and allows them to say that we were right all along. We told you you can't deal with Israel, we warned you against this, that violence is the only way forward.

One guy said he hit like forty plus legs in a single day. Hamas opposed this at the start because it was nonviolent, because it was civil society led. Hamas eventually caved under public pressure and ended up supporting the Great March Return, which I think goes to your question, what is the political order that can replace Hamas. If there is a non violent movement that can gain traction, then Hamas is defeated by that. Hamas is pressured into supporting that just by the kind of public support for it, like happened with the Great March Return. The Israeli response was not to say, Wow, let's embrace this non violent, civil society led movement and marginalize Hamas and reach a deal with this Palestinian force that could even see a unification between the West Bank and Gaza toward a long term peaceful solution. It was let's annihilate this, let's shoot and kill and maim the peaceful protesters, which only then fortifies Hamasa's position and allows them to say that we were right all along. We told you you can't deal with Israel, we warned you against this, that violence is the only way forward.

That's a fantastic retelling that is almost entirely fictional. For the great margin return, it did start off as a generally peaceful protest. The idea behind the March of Return was returning to Israel. The UN has released a report where they've gone over a lot of the shootings. It's very curious that if you actually read the entire report, you'll notice that almost every single shooting happens between fifty to one hundred meters in range, Which is curious. Why would if these are because I was told I believe by I think Finkelstein himself said, or might have been Raboni, that this was a cracked team of Israeli snipers. What apparently their rifles only worked up two hundred meters. The reason why just lazy, or maybe the why because there is a no go zone between the fence and one hundred meters because when people get too close, people try to cut the fence open, people try to break through, which is what was happening towards the end of the no choice but to shoot all those unarmed people. It doesn't matter if you're armed or unarmed, if you're approaching an area that you're not supposed to be in. And then when people start to try to break into the breakthrough the fence, that's the rules of the border. You try to cross any militarized border, you're probably going to get shot at. Also, towards the end of the Great Marshal Return, there were people that were throwing stones, that were sending over incendiary balloons that were causing like fires to spread on the other side of the fence. All this is documented even by the UN and that was when the majority of the firing from the Israeli police happened. If you want to say that they shouldn't be shooting at people who were close to the fence because you don't like that policy or whatever, that's fine, But characterizing that is like just open firing into a bunch of innocent people that are standing there with the goal of just maiming people. For no reason is the most unbelievable retelling of what happened. Now, it's the end of that event, that's exactly what happened.

That's a fantastic retelling that is almost entirely fictional. For the great margin return, it did start off as a generally peaceful protest. The idea behind the March of Return was returning to Israel. The UN has released a report where they've gone over a lot of the shootings. It's very curious that if you actually read the entire report, you'll notice that almost every single shooting happens between fifty to one hundred meters in range, Which is curious. Why would if these are because I was told I believe by I think Finkelstein himself said, or might have been Raboni, that this was a cracked team of Israeli snipers. What apparently their rifles only worked up two hundred meters. The reason why just lazy, or maybe the why because there is a no go zone between the fence and one hundred meters because when people get too close, people try to cut the fence open, people try to break through, which is what was happening towards the end of the no choice but to shoot all those unarmed people. It doesn't matter if you're armed or unarmed, if you're approaching an area that you're not supposed to be in. And then when people start to try to break into the breakthrough the fence, that's the rules of the border. You try to cross any militarized border, you're probably going to get shot at. Also, towards the end of the Great Marshal Return, there were people that were throwing stones, that were sending over incendiary balloons that were causing like fires to spread on the other side of the fence. All this is documented even by the UN and that was when the majority of the firing from the Israeli police happened. If you want to say that they shouldn't be shooting at people who were close to the fence because you don't like that policy or whatever, that's fine, But characterizing that is like just open firing into a bunch of innocent people that are standing there with the goal of just maiming people. For no reason is the most unbelievable retelling of what happened. Now, it's the end of that event, that's exactly what happened.

Actually, just to characterize it, just you know, get an even more complete picture. Israeli policy is people in Gaza have no right to go in a out of the cage that they've been placed into, their complete siege, their economies and shambles, because Israel does not allow them to trade with the outside world.

Actually, just to characterize it, just you know, get an even more complete picture. Israeli policy is people in Gaza have no right to go in a out of the cage that they've been placed into, their complete siege, their economies and shambles, because Israel does not allow them to trade with the outside world.

They can't have an airport.

They can't have an airport.

Because Israel doesn't feel like they are entitled to an airport, can't have a seaport. You know, when you look at the rates of unemployment over fifty percent in Gaza at the time, And if those people who are trapped in this cage come a little too close to the border, then we open fire at them and kill them, even when they're unarmed, because that's border policy.

Because Israel doesn't feel like they are entitled to an airport, can't have a seaport. You know, when you look at the rates of unemployment over fifty percent in Gaza at the time, And if those people who are trapped in this cage come a little too close to the border, then we open fire at them and kill them, even when they're unarmed, because that's border policy.

If this is.

If this is.

Something that more than If this is something it's more than six thousand, according to the un quote unquote more than six thousand unarmed demonstrators were shot by military snipers week after week at the protest sites and the separation fence.

Something that more than If this is something it's more than six thousand, according to the un quote unquote more than six thousand unarmed demonstrators were shot by military snipers week after week at the protest sites and the separation fence.

There's no denying that.

There's no denying that.

Yes, some people try to open up, and some people sent insidiary balloons over the border and so on. But by and large, when you look at the cases, human rights organizations have been clear about the fact that people were targeted when they posed absolutely no threat to Israeli soldiers. So Israeli soldiers opened fire on people and targeted specifically journalists and children. That is, and people are.