Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election.

Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election.

We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Hey guys, hope everybody is enjoying your Thanksgiving weekend. I wanted to do a bit of a longer interview where we had some real time to flesh out a lot of the complexities and the mythology surrounding the long standing Israeli Palestinian conflict and also of course the context of this current war on Gaza, and I thought to do that, we'd bring in doctor Norman Finkelstein, who is an author, professor of political science who's also studied this conflict for literally decades, devote much of his adult life to it, authored a number of books on the subject, in particular one that I'm reading right now, Gaza An Inquest into its Martyrdom.

Hey guys, hope everybody is enjoying your Thanksgiving weekend. I wanted to do a bit of a longer interview where we had some real time to flesh out a lot of the complexities and the mythology surrounding the long standing Israeli Palestinian conflict and also of course the context of this current war on Gaza, and I thought to do that, we'd bring in doctor Norman Finkelstein, who is an author, professor of political science who's also studied this conflict for literally decades, devote much of his adult life to it, authored a number of books on the subject, in particular one that I'm reading right now, Gaza An Inquest into its Martyrdom.

To dive into all of these topics. It's so great to have you, professor.

To dive into all of these topics. It's so great to have you, professor.

Thank you, thank you for having me.

Thank you, thank you for having me.

Yeah, of course, And what I did in preparation for this conversation because I really wanted to ask all the things that people have been wondering about, but maybe they didn't know who to ask, or they didn't know how to ask it, or they were embarrassed to ask it. So we open it up to our subscribers to really ask anything that they wanted to do about this conflict. So I hope this will be a wide ranging conversation that people find illuminating. I hope it'll be a challenging conversation. We'll tackle all of the things that are uncomfortable about it and get into all of those pieces.

Yeah, of course, And what I did in preparation for this conversation because I really wanted to ask all the things that people have been wondering about, but maybe they didn't know who to ask, or they didn't know how to ask it, or they were embarrassed to ask it. So we open it up to our subscribers to really ask anything that they wanted to do about this conflict. So I hope this will be a wide ranging conversation that people find illuminating. I hope it'll be a challenging conversation. We'll tackle all of the things that are uncomfortable about it and get into all of those pieces.

Well, I'm glad and I hope that you'll do what Candy is.

Well, I'm glad and I hope that you'll do what Candy is.

Oh. Instead, whereas something doesn't sound right to you, something doesn't sound logical to you, something doesn't sound convincing to you, ask me, and I think I can connect the dots. But sometimes when you speak rapidly, you miss some adults, and so sometimes you need to home in and look at each dot to connect the pattern.

Oh. Instead, whereas something doesn't sound right to you, something doesn't sound logical to you, something doesn't sound convincing to you, ask me, and I think I can connect the dots. But sometimes when you speak rapidly, you miss some adults, and so sometimes you need to home in and look at each dot to connect the pattern.

I will certainly do my best with all of that, So The first question does actually come from our audience, which I thought was a good starting point, which is about your origins. Can we start with just having doctor Finkelstein give basic info on himself growing up and what formed his thoughts opinions on this issue. And I was also curious, you know what led you to this lifelong interest and scholarship on Israel and Palestine.

I will certainly do my best with all of that, So The first question does actually come from our audience, which I thought was a good starting point, which is about your origins. Can we start with just having doctor Finkelstein give basic info on himself growing up and what formed his thoughts opinions on this issue. And I was also curious, you know what led you to this lifelong interest and scholarship on Israel and Palestine.

I grew up in Brooklyn, New York.

I grew up in Brooklyn, New York.

My parents came over after the war, as we called it, the war meaning World War Two. They were in Warsaw Ghetto. They grew up in Poland. They were in the Warsaw Ghetto from nineteen forty until nineteen forty three.

My parents came over after the war, as we called it, the war meaning World War Two. They were in Warsaw Ghetto. They grew up in Poland. They were in the Warsaw Ghetto from nineteen forty until nineteen forty three.

After the ghetto.

After the ghetto.

Uprising was suppressed by the Nazis. My parents, having survived the war so ghetto uprising, were deported to my the Neck concentration camp.

Uprising was suppressed by the Nazis. My parents, having survived the war so ghetto uprising, were deported to my the Neck concentration camp.

My mother then ended up in two slave labor camps.

My mother then ended up in two slave labor camps.

My father ended up according to my mother because I never actually asked my father, my father was in seven concentration camps, ended up in Auschwitz. Was on the Auschwitz Death March. Every member of my family on both sides, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, everyone was exterminated during the war. As my mother used to say to us growing up, we are just five people in the world, and that was literally the case. I grew up in the lower middle class neighborhood. My parents were not lower middle class. They were working class. However, they were determined to give us, meaning the children, a crack at the American dream. And so we grew up in the lower middle class neighborhood, but excellent schools. The high school I attended, among the graduates of my high school, or Chuck Schumer, Bernie Sanders, Judge Judy, five believe it or not, five Nobel laureates attended my public high school, Norm Coleman, the senator from Minnesota. We got a very solid education, no question about that. And Jews were back then very ambitious and they got to realize in large part the American dream. Most of my friends are spectacular success stories. So that was how I grew up. On the surface, I was just one of those graduates of James Madison High School in New York. But if you scratch the surface, I was kind of an alien bean. Because my parents were survivors of the Nazi Holocaust. They had, by any conventional standards, very eccentric politics. They were totally pro Soviet Union, totally pro Stalin. They wouldn't brook any criticism of the Soviet Union or Stalin in my home. And so I grew up having to adjust to the fact that in many ways I was an outsider, and I had to accept that I had to learn to live with that status. Actually the most traumatizing aspect of my youth, of my childhood, because they could never really assimilate what happened to my parents when they would read books about the Nazi Holocaust. As a very young child, Okay, now young child, you'd say, around thirteen years old, I would be reading a book in account of the Warsaw Ghetto, say leon Uris's Leon Heuris Is Mila eighteen or John Hershey's The Wall, and I remember I'm reading the book, glancing down at the text, and it's driving these Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto and they're in these things called bunkers and these catacombs, and everybody's starving to death in this ghetto. And then I'm looking up and I'm looking at my mother, and I just couldn't I literally, I couldn't make the imaginative leap from what I was reading to the what you might say the mundane existence of growing up an ordinary home in Brooklyn, New York. But also, as I said, I learned to be an outsider from a very early age. The most traumatizing event of my youth, as I mentioned a moment ago, was I was in bar Mitzford and.

My father ended up according to my mother because I never actually asked my father, my father was in seven concentration camps, ended up in Auschwitz. Was on the Auschwitz Death March. Every member of my family on both sides, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, everyone was exterminated during the war. As my mother used to say to us growing up, we are just five people in the world, and that was literally the case. I grew up in the lower middle class neighborhood. My parents were not lower middle class. They were working class. However, they were determined to give us, meaning the children, a crack at the American dream. And so we grew up in the lower middle class neighborhood, but excellent schools. The high school I attended, among the graduates of my high school, or Chuck Schumer, Bernie Sanders, Judge Judy, five believe it or not, five Nobel laureates attended my public high school, Norm Coleman, the senator from Minnesota. We got a very solid education, no question about that. And Jews were back then very ambitious and they got to realize in large part the American dream. Most of my friends are spectacular success stories. So that was how I grew up. On the surface, I was just one of those graduates of James Madison High School in New York. But if you scratch the surface, I was kind of an alien bean. Because my parents were survivors of the Nazi Holocaust. They had, by any conventional standards, very eccentric politics. They were totally pro Soviet Union, totally pro Stalin. They wouldn't brook any criticism of the Soviet Union or Stalin in my home. And so I grew up having to adjust to the fact that in many ways I was an outsider, and I had to accept that I had to learn to live with that status. Actually the most traumatizing aspect of my youth, of my childhood, because they could never really assimilate what happened to my parents when they would read books about the Nazi Holocaust. As a very young child, Okay, now young child, you'd say, around thirteen years old, I would be reading a book in account of the Warsaw Ghetto, say leon Uris's Leon Heuris Is Mila eighteen or John Hershey's The Wall, and I remember I'm reading the book, glancing down at the text, and it's driving these Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto and they're in these things called bunkers and these catacombs, and everybody's starving to death in this ghetto. And then I'm looking up and I'm looking at my mother, and I just couldn't I literally, I couldn't make the imaginative leap from what I was reading to the what you might say the mundane existence of growing up an ordinary home in Brooklyn, New York. But also, as I said, I learned to be an outsider from a very early age. The most traumatizing event of my youth, as I mentioned a moment ago, was I was in bar Mitzford and.

In the Jewish neighborhood.

In the Jewish neighborhood.

That was literally it was unthinkable, because bar Mitzvah was kind of the equivalent if you're not Jewish, you have said you're a young woman. It's a coming out party where the family uses the occasion to display its wealth, display its earthly success and.

That was literally it was unthinkable, because bar Mitzvah was kind of the equivalent if you're not Jewish, you have said you're a young woman. It's a coming out party where the family uses the occasion to display its wealth, display its earthly success and.

All of that.

All of that.

And I didn't get to pass through that ritual, and it was actually quite humiliating. So I would say from a quite young age, I had grown inured to the fact that I was, in many respects and outsider. How I got involved in the Israel Palestine conflict was really sevendipuity. I'm not sure if seven diputy is the right word, because that usually means chancing upon a happy event. It was all by chance in June nineteen eighty two Israel in Lebanon. The war lasted for three and a half months. The estimates are Israel killed fifteen to twenty thousand Lebanese and Palestinians, overwhelmingly civilians. I got involved in the protests around the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, and at some point I started to study the conflict, and then it turned into my doctoral citation in graduate school.

And I didn't get to pass through that ritual, and it was actually quite humiliating. So I would say from a quite young age, I had grown inured to the fact that I was, in many respects and outsider. How I got involved in the Israel Palestine conflict was really sevendipuity. I'm not sure if seven diputy is the right word, because that usually means chancing upon a happy event. It was all by chance in June nineteen eighty two Israel in Lebanon. The war lasted for three and a half months. The estimates are Israel killed fifteen to twenty thousand Lebanese and Palestinians, overwhelmingly civilians. I got involved in the protests around the Israeli invasion of Lebanon, and at some point I started to study the conflict, and then it turned into my doctoral citation in graduate school.

And then as I was doing.

And then as I was doing.

The research for the doctoral dissertation, I stumbled upon this national bestseller.

The research for the doctoral dissertation, I stumbled upon this national bestseller.

It had just come out.

It had just come out.

It was called From Time Immemorial, and it was heaped with praise, and this was going This was the book, it was said, that was going to change our understanding of the whole conflict. I was curious because I was writing my doctor dissertation on a related aspect, not on that aspect.

It was called From Time Immemorial, and it was heaped with praise, and this was going This was the book, it was said, that was going to change our understanding of the whole conflict. I was curious because I was writing my doctor dissertation on a related aspect, not on that aspect.

Of the book.

Of the book.

And I then, after assiduously examining the book, its footnotes, and its internal logic and coherence, I was able to demonstrate that this national bestseller, which the whole Jewish intelligentsia class had heaped praise on, the.

And I then, after assiduously examining the book, its footnotes, and its internal logic and coherence, I was able to demonstrate that this national bestseller, which the whole Jewish intelligentsia class had heaped praise on, the.

Book was a hoax.

Book was a hoax.

And at that point, I guess you could say I now plug into this area of intellectual inquiry and political activism, and if I stood by it, for forty years. It's because the conflict never ended. I'm not a quitter, It's just not in my nature. I am very stubborn, except when it comes to truth and facts. If you convince me I'm wrong, I will concede I'm wrong. My creedown life has always been never quarrel with facts. If I'm wrong, I simply have to acknowledge it and move on. Otherwise I'm betraying my principles. Sometimes I see a fact and I see I'm wrong, and I try to weazle my way out of it in my mind, and at some point I say, norm stop, you're wrong, accept it, acknowledge it because that's a bedrock principle for you, and move on. So I will not be stubborn about facts if I'm wrong. However, I don't give up on the cause I'm not a fair weather friend and I don't pullowp with the wind, and I don't think anybody has ever.

And at that point, I guess you could say I now plug into this area of intellectual inquiry and political activism, and if I stood by it, for forty years. It's because the conflict never ended. I'm not a quitter, It's just not in my nature. I am very stubborn, except when it comes to truth and facts. If you convince me I'm wrong, I will concede I'm wrong. My creedown life has always been never quarrel with facts. If I'm wrong, I simply have to acknowledge it and move on. Otherwise I'm betraying my principles. Sometimes I see a fact and I see I'm wrong, and I try to weazle my way out of it in my mind, and at some point I say, norm stop, you're wrong, accept it, acknowledge it because that's a bedrock principle for you, and move on. So I will not be stubborn about facts if I'm wrong. However, I don't give up on the cause I'm not a fair weather friend and I don't pullowp with the wind, and I don't think anybody has ever.

Accused me of that.

Accused me of that.

So we have a you know, everybody, many people at home with friends and family over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend, a lot of people with a lot of thoughts and opinions on what is unfolding right now in Israel and their war on Gaza. And you know, a lot of people feel so overwhelmed by the details of this conflict because it is so longstanding. There's all these different potential peace deals, there's all these different facets of the conflict that they feel incapable of arguing a position coherently. So one of the questions that we got was, can you give a sort of cliff notes version or give just the most essential facts so that people feel like they can coherently and intelligently take a stand on what's going on now.

So we have a you know, everybody, many people at home with friends and family over the Thanksgiving holiday weekend, a lot of people with a lot of thoughts and opinions on what is unfolding right now in Israel and their war on Gaza. And you know, a lot of people feel so overwhelmed by the details of this conflict because it is so longstanding. There's all these different potential peace deals, there's all these different facets of the conflict that they feel incapable of arguing a position coherently. So one of the questions that we got was, can you give a sort of cliff notes version or give just the most essential facts so that people feel like they can coherently and intelligently take a stand on what's going on now.

That's a very difficult question because any tempt to give a succinct or as you called, cliff notes version of the history.

That's a very difficult question because any tempt to give a succinct or as you called, cliff notes version of the history.

And the first question always is where do you begin.

And the first question always is where do you begin.

Israel likes to begin in two thousand BC, and if I were to go forward from two thousand BC to the present, we would need not two hours, we need about two years. So then the question is where do you begin? For convenience and sake, and I think for the sake of the essential context of what's happening now, have you should or you can begin with two thousand and six. In two thousand and six, the president of the United States, as you will call was George Bush, and one of his signature items on his agenda or foreign policy agenda, is what he called democracy promotion. And one aspect of the democracy promotion was to encourage elections, and the Bush administration encouraged the Palestinians to hold elections. Hamas, the Islamic movement originally didn't want to participate because it felt that these elections were within a framework what was called and I'm not going to go into the terminal going to the meaning of the terminology, it was called the Oslo framework, which Hamas rejected. However, it did a volte face and about face it agreed to participate in the elections, and surprise to everybody, Amas won the election.

Israel likes to begin in two thousand BC, and if I were to go forward from two thousand BC to the present, we would need not two hours, we need about two years. So then the question is where do you begin? For convenience and sake, and I think for the sake of the essential context of what's happening now, have you should or you can begin with two thousand and six. In two thousand and six, the president of the United States, as you will call was George Bush, and one of his signature items on his agenda or foreign policy agenda, is what he called democracy promotion. And one aspect of the democracy promotion was to encourage elections, and the Bush administration encouraged the Palestinians to hold elections. Hamas, the Islamic movement originally didn't want to participate because it felt that these elections were within a framework what was called and I'm not going to go into the terminal going to the meaning of the terminology, it was called the Oslo framework, which Hamas rejected. However, it did a volte face and about face it agreed to participate in the elections, and surprise to everybody, Amas won the election.

Now there are two things to say about it.

Now there are two things to say about it.

Number One, Jimmy Carter, who was monitoring the elections in the occupied Palestinian territories, he pronounced the elections completely honest and fair. In fact, those were the first democratic elections held in the modern Middle East, in the whole region, the first democratic elections held in the modern Middle East. Jimmy Carter, as I said, pronounced them completely honest and fair.

Number One, Jimmy Carter, who was monitoring the elections in the occupied Palestinian territories, he pronounced the elections completely honest and fair. In fact, those were the first democratic elections held in the modern Middle East, in the whole region, the first democratic elections held in the modern Middle East. Jimmy Carter, as I said, pronounced them completely honest and fair.

The second thing to say.

The second thing to say.

About uh the election is the immediately as the election was the results of the elections came in, UH, and the result was not what the United States wanted.

About uh the election is the immediately as the election was the results of the elections came in, UH, and the result was not what the United States wanted.

I should make one point about that.

I should make one point about that.

Uh. The people of Gaza did not elect or the people in the because it was an occupied territories election, so it's the West Bank and Gaza. They didn't elect Goza because it was a terrorist organization.

Uh. The people of Gaza did not elect or the people in the because it was an occupied territories election, so it's the West Bank and Gaza. They didn't elect Goza because it was a terrorist organization.

They didn't elect Gaza.

They didn't elect Gaza.

Because it was had sit As as objective to destroy Israel. It elected Uh, i'm us because i'm us ran on a platform that promised reform, and Hamas itself had a positive reputation for its role in various social institutions, in the role in various religious institutions at the time. I won't say what came later, but at the time it wasn't seemed to be a reasonably honest and less corrupt organization than what's called the Palestinian Authority. And it was because of the promises of basic reform that Hamas won the election. When I say reform, I mean social reform, political reform, and most importantly of course, economic reform. So that was why that's the result of the election. As I said, the United States was not please. The result for example, Hillary Clinton, who's currently making the rounds about how she was trying so hard to promote democracy in the occupied Palestinian territories because she cares so much about the as Indian people. At the time, or just shortly thereafter, Hillary Clinton stated that the United States made a mistake.

Because it was had sit As as objective to destroy Israel. It elected Uh, i'm us because i'm us ran on a platform that promised reform, and Hamas itself had a positive reputation for its role in various social institutions, in the role in various religious institutions at the time. I won't say what came later, but at the time it wasn't seemed to be a reasonably honest and less corrupt organization than what's called the Palestinian Authority. And it was because of the promises of basic reform that Hamas won the election. When I say reform, I mean social reform, political reform, and most importantly of course, economic reform. So that was why that's the result of the election. As I said, the United States was not please. The result for example, Hillary Clinton, who's currently making the rounds about how she was trying so hard to promote democracy in the occupied Palestinian territories because she cares so much about the as Indian people. At the time, or just shortly thereafter, Hillary Clinton stated that the United States made a mistake.

It should have rigged the election.

It should have rigged the election.

That's Hillary Clinton's commitment to democracy. That's democracy promotion the Hillary Clinton in the world in any event. Immediately as Ahamas won the elections, the United States, i should say, Israel, then followed by the United States and the EU, imposed these rural economic sensions on Gaza. Now, before I get to those sanctions, the first thing I have to do free listeners is to describe what is Gaza. Gaza is about twenty five miles long, less than the length of a marathon, and it's five miles wide. Gaza is among the most densely populated places on God's Earth. Right now, it's by a wide margin, as we speak, the most densely populated place in God's Earth, because half of it has been cleared out, and that population in the northern sector has now been pushed to the southern sector. And now Israel has plans to take the most the dense, most densely populated place in God's Earth and push all the people and I hope you listeners will take it in because it's going to be unfolding as this program airs, and push all the people in Gaza into an area the size of Los Angeles Airport. The population of Gaza, Israel now wants to shove into an area the size of Los Angeles Airport. In any event, Gaza among the most densely populated places on Earth. Once the israelis I should say the population seventy percent of the people of Gaza are refugees or descendants of refugees. They were seventy percent of the population and its descendants were expelled from Israel in nineteen forty eight during the First Arab Israeli War, and they ended up in Gaza as their descendants, and they lived in refugee camps for the last seventy five years in Gaza. Half the population of Gaza's children. That's another point that should be fixed in everyone's mind when you hear about the indiscriminate bombing, the indiscriminate murder, the targeted murder in Gaza. About half of those targeted are children as of now, more seventy percent of the eleventh thousand.

That's Hillary Clinton's commitment to democracy. That's democracy promotion the Hillary Clinton in the world in any event. Immediately as Ahamas won the elections, the United States, i should say, Israel, then followed by the United States and the EU, imposed these rural economic sensions on Gaza. Now, before I get to those sanctions, the first thing I have to do free listeners is to describe what is Gaza. Gaza is about twenty five miles long, less than the length of a marathon, and it's five miles wide. Gaza is among the most densely populated places on God's Earth. Right now, it's by a wide margin, as we speak, the most densely populated place in God's Earth, because half of it has been cleared out, and that population in the northern sector has now been pushed to the southern sector. And now Israel has plans to take the most the dense, most densely populated place in God's Earth and push all the people and I hope you listeners will take it in because it's going to be unfolding as this program airs, and push all the people in Gaza into an area the size of Los Angeles Airport. The population of Gaza, Israel now wants to shove into an area the size of Los Angeles Airport. In any event, Gaza among the most densely populated places on Earth. Once the israelis I should say the population seventy percent of the people of Gaza are refugees or descendants of refugees. They were seventy percent of the population and its descendants were expelled from Israel in nineteen forty eight during the First Arab Israeli War, and they ended up in Gaza as their descendants, and they lived in refugee camps for the last seventy five years in Gaza. Half the population of Gaza's children. That's another point that should be fixed in everyone's mind when you hear about the indiscriminate bombing, the indiscriminate murder, the targeted murder in Gaza. About half of those targeted are children as of now, more seventy percent of the eleventh thousand.

That it's about eleven thousand.

That it's about eleven thousand.

Five hundred, seventy percent of those killed in Gaza, our children and women. That's called targeting humas and the official media accounts seventy percent our children and women. That's the population of Gaza, overwhelmingly refugees and descendants of refugees, and overwhelming and fifty percent children. Now, what does this blockade of Gaza mean? That to me is the most salient fact which whenever I mentioned that even people who are reasonably well informed, they're absolutely dumbfounded. Once this will imposed the blockade on Gaza, nobody could go in and nobody could go out, except on the rarest of occasions. Is Real controls everything that goes in and everything that goes out. There was a period in time when Israel prohibited so many items from being accessible to the people of Gaza that they finally reversed the list and just provide a list of what was permissible to pass through the gates of Gaza. Israel band chocolate from entering Gaza. Israel band, they beat chicks from entering Gaza. Israel band potato chips from entering Gaza. There was a period where Israel calibrated the diet, the caloric diet of every person in Gaza, so as to enable a starvation plus a starvation plus diet to be limited to the people of Gaza. Half the population of Gaza is unemployed.

Five hundred, seventy percent of those killed in Gaza, our children and women. That's called targeting humas and the official media accounts seventy percent our children and women. That's the population of Gaza, overwhelmingly refugees and descendants of refugees, and overwhelming and fifty percent children. Now, what does this blockade of Gaza mean? That to me is the most salient fact which whenever I mentioned that even people who are reasonably well informed, they're absolutely dumbfounded. Once this will imposed the blockade on Gaza, nobody could go in and nobody could go out, except on the rarest of occasions. Is Real controls everything that goes in and everything that goes out. There was a period in time when Israel prohibited so many items from being accessible to the people of Gaza that they finally reversed the list and just provide a list of what was permissible to pass through the gates of Gaza. Israel band chocolate from entering Gaza. Israel band, they beat chicks from entering Gaza. Israel band potato chips from entering Gaza. There was a period where Israel calibrated the diet, the caloric diet of every person in Gaza, so as to enable a starvation plus a starvation plus diet to be limited to the people of Gaza. Half the population of Gaza is unemployed.

Has the highest population.

Has the highest population.

Rate of any area in the word excuse me, the highest unemployment rate of any area in the world. Seventy percent of the youth in Gaza are unemployed.

Rate of any area in the word excuse me, the highest unemployment rate of any area in the world. Seventy percent of the youth in Gaza are unemployed.

So when you add up all.

So when you add up all.

The discreet facts that have just enumerates for you, what do you get. Well, the former British Prime minister, the Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron, he described Gaza as an open air prison. Then there's it's a senior Israeli security official. His name comes up a lot lately as he lays out his maniacal plans for Gaza. His name is Gueora Gio r A island e I L A N D. And in twenty two thousand and four, which is to say, before the blockade was even imposed on Gaza. In two thousand and four, he described Gaza as a huge concentration camp. So if you look at the spectrum, the spectrum goes from open air prison to concentration camp. That's Gaza. So when we come to the events of October seventh, we have to bear in mind that those young men who burst the gates of Gaza, overwhelmingly and maybe entirely, they were born into a concentration camp. All they had to do, day in and day out of their existence was wake up in the morning and pace the perimeter those twenty five miles by five miles, pace the perimeter of the concentration camp. That's all they had experienced in their lives. They had no past, they had no present, and as things looked on the eve of October seventh, they had no future. However, that's only half the story, the reasons of this program. Not with me, not speaking through eternity, I'll give you the other half very quickly. The other half is periodically Israel goes into Gaza. I can't list all the times because frankly, I've never been able to commit all their operations to memory much as a try.

The discreet facts that have just enumerates for you, what do you get. Well, the former British Prime minister, the Conservative Prime Minister David Cameron, he described Gaza as an open air prison. Then there's it's a senior Israeli security official. His name comes up a lot lately as he lays out his maniacal plans for Gaza. His name is Gueora Gio r A island e I L A N D. And in twenty two thousand and four, which is to say, before the blockade was even imposed on Gaza. In two thousand and four, he described Gaza as a huge concentration camp. So if you look at the spectrum, the spectrum goes from open air prison to concentration camp. That's Gaza. So when we come to the events of October seventh, we have to bear in mind that those young men who burst the gates of Gaza, overwhelmingly and maybe entirely, they were born into a concentration camp. All they had to do, day in and day out of their existence was wake up in the morning and pace the perimeter those twenty five miles by five miles, pace the perimeter of the concentration camp. That's all they had experienced in their lives. They had no past, they had no present, and as things looked on the eve of October seventh, they had no future. However, that's only half the story, the reasons of this program. Not with me, not speaking through eternity, I'll give you the other half very quickly. The other half is periodically Israel goes into Gaza. I can't list all the times because frankly, I've never been able to commit all their operations to memory much as a try.

The list is too long.

The list is too long.

But every few years Israel conducts with the calls and operation in Gaza. What is the operation in Gaza? Is reel coined a very happy locution. It's called mowing the lawn in Gaza. Now my memory is correct, Crystal, you have three children?

But every few years Israel conducts with the calls and operation in Gaza. What is the operation in Gaza? Is reel coined a very happy locution. It's called mowing the lawn in Gaza. Now my memory is correct, Crystal, you have three children?

Correct? Correct, yep.

Correct? Correct, yep.

So i'd like you right.

So i'd like you right.

So I'd like you to bear in mind. I'm not trying to be a motive. I'm not trying to be dramatic. But I also am trying to paint for your listeners a realistic picture of what's been done to those people. Israel mows the lawn in Gazam, and that lawn has two point three million blades of grass.

So I'd like you to bear in mind. I'm not trying to be a motive. I'm not trying to be dramatic. But I also am trying to paint for your listeners a realistic picture of what's been done to those people. Israel mows the lawn in Gazam, and that lawn has two point three million blades of grass.

That's the population of Gazam.

That's the population of Gazam.

One half of those blades of grass, one million, one hundred and fifty thousand are children. And Israel coined if I dare say, and the listeners can decide for themselves whether I'm being emotive or whether I'm being factual. It coined this satanic phrase, which it repeats on every occasion with a certain amount of humor. It's funny, We're going to mow the grass in Gaza and everybody smiles.

One half of those blades of grass, one million, one hundred and fifty thousand are children. And Israel coined if I dare say, and the listeners can decide for themselves whether I'm being emotive or whether I'm being factual. It coined this satanic phrase, which it repeats on every occasion with a certain amount of humor. It's funny, We're going to mow the grass in Gaza and everybody smiles.

Isn't that a clever, cute expression.

Isn't that a clever, cute expression.

I wonder if you would smile the mother of three knowing that among those blades of grass that are going to be mode are the heads and skulls of your children, Operation and cast Led two thousand and eight two thousand and nine December twenty sixth to January seventeenth, Israel killed fourteen hundred people, three hundred and fifty of whom were children. Demolished six thousand, three hundred homes mowing the grass of Gozam, then twenty twelve Operation Pillar of Defence, then twenty fourteen Operation Protective Edge, fifty one.

I wonder if you would smile the mother of three knowing that among those blades of grass that are going to be mode are the heads and skulls of your children, Operation and cast Led two thousand and eight two thousand and nine December twenty sixth to January seventeenth, Israel killed fourteen hundred people, three hundred and fifty of whom were children. Demolished six thousand, three hundred homes mowing the grass of Gozam, then twenty twelve Operation Pillar of Defence, then twenty fourteen Operation Protective Edge, fifty one.

Days of mowing the lawn Operation cast Led.

Days of mowing the lawn Operation cast Led.

In two thousand and eight to nine, Amnesty International wrote a large report on what happened.

In two thousand and eight to nine, Amnesty International wrote a large report on what happened.

He called it twenty two days.

He called it twenty two days.

Of death and destruction mowing the lawn in Gaza. Twenty fourteen, Peter Moore, the head of the International Committee of the Red Cross, he visited Gaza and he saw what Israel had inflicted. Twenty two hundred people killed, five hundred and fifty of them children, eighteen thousand homes vaporized.

Of death and destruction mowing the lawn in Gaza. Twenty fourteen, Peter Moore, the head of the International Committee of the Red Cross, he visited Gaza and he saw what Israel had inflicted. Twenty two hundred people killed, five hundred and fifty of them children, eighteen thousand homes vaporized.

He came out and he said, now bear in.

He came out and he said, now bear in.

Mind, Peter Moore's job is to visit combat zones. And he said, never in his entire professional life had he seen destruction of the magnitude that was inflicted on Gaza.

Mind, Peter Moore's job is to visit combat zones. And he said, never in his entire professional life had he seen destruction of the magnitude that was inflicted on Gaza.

In twenty fourteen. So we're told now.

In twenty fourteen. So we're told now.

That the story begins on October seventh, and when a moderator has a guest done the first point of businesses, of course, you have to condemn what happened on October seventh, because that's we're told where the story begins. It's as if in a slave uprising like our own, not Turner slave uprising, you have to begin the story because not Turner and his band of insurgents that killed a lot of innocent men, women and children, no question about that, in very brutal ways. But as if you have to begin by condemning Nott Turner.

That the story begins on October seventh, and when a moderator has a guest done the first point of businesses, of course, you have to condemn what happened on October seventh, because that's we're told where the story begins. It's as if in a slave uprising like our own, not Turner slave uprising, you have to begin the story because not Turner and his band of insurgents that killed a lot of innocent men, women and children, no question about that, in very brutal ways. But as if you have to begin by condemning Nott Turner.

Because of those.

Because of those.

Horrible deeds he had committed.

Horrible deeds he had committed.

But you're not allowed to mention the fact.

But you're not allowed to mention the fact.

That, hey, Nott Turner was born a slave. He was born a slave, he lived a slave, and as things looked on the date of his rebellion, he died, he would die a slave. That was his past, present, and future. Is that irrevant? Is that an irrelevant aspect of a story?

That, hey, Nott Turner was born a slave. He was born a slave, he lived a slave, and as things looked on the date of his rebellion, he died, he would die a slave. That was his past, present, and future. Is that irrevant? Is that an irrelevant aspect of a story?

Of course not?

Of course not?

And so for me, I think that you can understand the history and the context and how it led to these events while also abhorring the loss of innocent civilian life. There was a question directly in response to this analysis from you, a combative question, let's say from our audience that I wanted to get you to respond to. This person writes, given that you essentially cannot hold Hamas accountable for anything past or present, and suggest they are simply acting under the conditions they find themselves in. How many Israeli civilians would be too many for it to continue to be considered a simple consequence of freedom fighting. So far, there might be fourteen hundred they've revised to twelve hundred. But let's say it's just a few hundred. Would fourteen thousand, one hundred forty thousand, one point four million? At what point would norm say that the loss of Israeli civilians was too great to justify a resistance movement. What's your response to that question?

And so for me, I think that you can understand the history and the context and how it led to these events while also abhorring the loss of innocent civilian life. There was a question directly in response to this analysis from you, a combative question, let's say from our audience that I wanted to get you to respond to. This person writes, given that you essentially cannot hold Hamas accountable for anything past or present, and suggest they are simply acting under the conditions they find themselves in. How many Israeli civilians would be too many for it to continue to be considered a simple consequence of freedom fighting. So far, there might be fourteen hundred they've revised to twelve hundred. But let's say it's just a few hundred. Would fourteen thousand, one hundred forty thousand, one point four million? At what point would norm say that the loss of Israeli civilians was too great to justify a resistance movement. What's your response to that question?

I guess my response is as follows, And those are fair questions.

I guess my response is as follows, And those are fair questions.

I've heard them. Those are fair questions.

I've heard them. Those are fair questions.

I'm not going to provide a threshold where it becomes intolerable. I've said what there is no There does not seem to be any doubt as of now that significant atrocities occurred on October seven. I have said that in every interview, and I think my reputation is as such that it won't be construed as me trying to protect myself. I don't protect myself with anything except facts, logic, and truth. And facts, logic and truth compel me to acknowledge, where I resistant to the fact compel me to acknowledge atrocities occurred.

I'm not going to provide a threshold where it becomes intolerable. I've said what there is no There does not seem to be any doubt as of now that significant atrocities occurred on October seven. I have said that in every interview, and I think my reputation is as such that it won't be construed as me trying to protect myself. I don't protect myself with anything except facts, logic, and truth. And facts, logic and truth compel me to acknowledge, where I resistant to the fact compel me to acknowledge atrocities occurred.

So there's no dispute.

So there's no dispute.

Between myself and your interrogatory and your questioner. There's no dispute about the atrocities. The question is understanding those atrocities.

Between myself and your interrogatory and your questioner. There's no dispute about the atrocities. The question is understanding those atrocities.

You couldn't find a single word by me.

You couldn't find a single word by me.

In which I condone what happened on October seventh. I have repeatedly said I won't condone, but I won't condemn. Now, you might say, Crystal and your questioner, you both might say that.

In which I condone what happened on October seventh. I have repeatedly said I won't condone, but I won't condemn. Now, you might say, Crystal and your questioner, you both might say that.

That doesn't sound consistent.

That doesn't sound consistent.

If you acknowledge atrocities have occurred, then how can you not condemn the perpetrators of those atrocities? And I do see a logical problem there, and that's why when I was trying to think through this question, I went back and looked at how the abolitionists those white folks not entirely white folks.

If you acknowledge atrocities have occurred, then how can you not condemn the perpetrators of those atrocities? And I do see a logical problem there, and that's why when I was trying to think through this question, I went back and looked at how the abolitionists those white folks not entirely white folks.

Obviously they were black abolitionists.

Obviously they were black abolitionists.

But to celebrate white abolitionists, people like that Ye Stevens, Wendell Phillips, William Lloyd Garrison, Charles Sumner, the heroes of that era, how they reckon morally parse than that Turner rebellion, in which, as I said, sixty white people were hacked to pieces, the heads of babies were chopped off.

But to celebrate white abolitionists, people like that Ye Stevens, Wendell Phillips, William Lloyd Garrison, Charles Sumner, the heroes of that era, how they reckon morally parse than that Turner rebellion, in which, as I said, sixty white people were hacked to pieces, the heads of babies were chopped off.

That's a fact.

That's a fact.

And William Lloyd Garrison, in the journal he edited, The Liberator, he had an article in that Turner and he acknowledged atrocities occurred. But you can look through that look read every sentence of that article. He does not condemn the now Turner rebellion.

And William Lloyd Garrison, in the journal he edited, The Liberator, he had an article in that Turner and he acknowledged atrocities occurred. But you can look through that look read every sentence of that article. He does not condemn the now Turner rebellion.

He couldn't.

He couldn't.

He couldn't in morally good conscience, because every day of his.

He couldn't in morally good conscience, because every day of his.

Life he bore a witness.

Life he bore a witness.

To the degradation, to the humiliation, to the laceration.

To the degradation, to the humiliation, to the laceration.

Of the black slaves.

Of the black slaves.

He bore witness to the auction blocks where these slaves.

He bore witness to the auction blocks where these slaves.

Were measured, examined, and sold off.

Were measured, examined, and sold off.

And in good conscience, he couldn't find it in him to condemn what condemned not Turner. He condemned the atrocities, for sure, but he would not condemn not Turner. And when I read that I have to say it morally resonated with me because unlike a.

And in good conscience, he couldn't find it in him to condemn what condemned not Turner. He condemned the atrocities, for sure, but he would not condemn not Turner. And when I read that I have to say it morally resonated with me because unlike a.

Lot of people who are now weighing in.

Lot of people who are now weighing in.

And judging the young men who burst free the wall of Gaza concentration camp, and unlike myself who spent forty years reading those human rights reports on what has been done to the people of Gaza, they're all quick to pass judgments on those fifteen hundred maybe two thousand. We billy don't know men who burst free. I, in good conscience could not. The difference between myself and others is one the knowledge I find it very painful to this day.

And judging the young men who burst free the wall of Gaza concentration camp, and unlike myself who spent forty years reading those human rights reports on what has been done to the people of Gaza, they're all quick to pass judgments on those fifteen hundred maybe two thousand. We billy don't know men who burst free. I, in good conscience could not. The difference between myself and others is one the knowledge I find it very painful to this day.

When I reread.

When I reread.

My own book, my own book in preparation for the past month to speaking our what happened on October seventh, my innerds ry. They rise in disgust at the whole world passing judgment on this god forsaken people. So if my position seems contradictory or contradictory, it's number one, because I don't think it's an easy moral question to resolve. And number two, unlike everyone else, I don't have in my mind this image of hamas this evil criminal organization. In my mind, I see the young people with no past, no present, no future. Periodically, this satanic power mows the lawn of Gaza, kills their mother, or kills their father, or kills their sister, or kills their child. Would I, I'm October seventh not be filled with rage? Would I I'm October seventh not be determined to exact revenge for that horror, that nightmare that had been inflicted on me for no reason, on God's earth from.

My own book, my own book in preparation for the past month to speaking our what happened on October seventh, my innerds ry. They rise in disgust at the whole world passing judgment on this god forsaken people. So if my position seems contradictory or contradictory, it's number one, because I don't think it's an easy moral question to resolve. And number two, unlike everyone else, I don't have in my mind this image of hamas this evil criminal organization. In my mind, I see the young people with no past, no present, no future. Periodically, this satanic power mows the lawn of Gaza, kills their mother, or kills their father, or kills their sister, or kills their child. Would I, I'm October seventh not be filled with rage? Would I I'm October seventh not be determined to exact revenge for that horror, that nightmare that had been inflicted on me for no reason, on God's earth from.

The day I was born?

The day I was born?

You know the biblical adage, Therefore the grace of God go I. I don't know how I would have reacted, and I won't pretend to be better than the people of Gossip.

You know the biblical adage, Therefore the grace of God go I. I don't know how I would have reacted, and I won't pretend to be better than the people of Gossip.

I won't.

I won't.

So one of our questioners, again on the same topic, said, why not simply apply and uphold Geneva Conventions in all instances when it comes to Israel, when it comes to Hamasa's actions, and they point in particular to the Geneva Convention's Law of Arm Conflict Article fifty one, subsection two or Additional Protocol one, which states the civilian population as such as well as individual civilians shall not be the object of attack.

So one of our questioners, again on the same topic, said, why not simply apply and uphold Geneva Conventions in all instances when it comes to Israel, when it comes to Hamasa's actions, and they point in particular to the Geneva Convention's Law of Arm Conflict Article fifty one, subsection two or Additional Protocol one, which states the civilian population as such as well as individual civilians shall not be the object of attack.

I think there's a confusion here.

I think there's a confusion here.

I just said I think three times I acknowledged atrocities occurred.

I just said I think three times I acknowledged atrocities occurred.

I applied the Geneva Convention.

I applied the Geneva Convention.

I acknowledge atrocity occurred, but that to my mind, and we can disagree. It's a separate question from the moral judgment. I am going to pass over those young men in Gaza. So I would also say, I'm all for applying those what's called what's called IHL international humanitarian law. I'm all for its application. My problem is, where do you begin under international humanitarian law? The blockade of Gaza is illegal. It's a war crime. It is collective punishment, a war crime. In fact, since it's lasted twenty nearly twenty years. It began in January two thousand and six. Since it's lasted nearly twenty years, it constitutes a crime against humanity.

I acknowledge atrocity occurred, but that to my mind, and we can disagree. It's a separate question from the moral judgment. I am going to pass over those young men in Gaza. So I would also say, I'm all for applying those what's called what's called IHL international humanitarian law. I'm all for its application. My problem is, where do you begin under international humanitarian law? The blockade of Gaza is illegal. It's a war crime. It is collective punishment, a war crime. In fact, since it's lasted twenty nearly twenty years. It began in January two thousand and six. Since it's lasted nearly twenty years, it constitutes a crime against humanity.

So I have to ask you a questioner, why do we begin with the war?

So I have to ask you a questioner, why do we begin with the war?

Excuse me, why do we begin with the atrocities that began or unfolded on October seventh? Without remembering that the impetus of that event on October seventh was the fact that these young men were the victim of a crime against humanity that had endured from the day of their birth till October seventh. Also, eager were also eager to condemn the crime on October seventh. But I was around, and I was documenting that crime against humanity that began in two thousand and six. That's the part that's forgotten. I condemned the atrocity on October seventh. How many people condemned the two decade long crime against humanity that these young men endured. How many people even cared rankly? How many people even knew about it?

Excuse me, why do we begin with the atrocities that began or unfolded on October seventh? Without remembering that the impetus of that event on October seventh was the fact that these young men were the victim of a crime against humanity that had endured from the day of their birth till October seventh. Also, eager were also eager to condemn the crime on October seventh. But I was around, and I was documenting that crime against humanity that began in two thousand and six. That's the part that's forgotten. I condemned the atrocity on October seventh. How many people condemned the two decade long crime against humanity that these young men endured. How many people even cared rankly? How many people even knew about it?

So you mentioned a little while ago that our former Secretary of State and former First Lady Hillary Clinton has been making the rounds laying out her argument for why she is opposed to a ceasefire, even after all of the many civilians who have been killed by Israel in this conflict. She laid out her argument in Atlantic Peace. She said that ceasefires freeze conflicts rather than resolve them. In twenty twelve, freezing the conflict in Gaza was an outcome that we and the Israelis were willing to accept. But Israel's policy since two thousand and nine of containing rather than destroying Hamas has failed. A ceasefire now that restored the pre October seventh status quo would leave the people of Gaza living in a besieged enclave under the domination of terrorists and leave Israeli's vulnerable to continued attacks. It would also consign hundreds of hostages to continued captivity. She also made an appearance on The View where she bolstered this argument with her version of some of the recent history.

So you mentioned a little while ago that our former Secretary of State and former First Lady Hillary Clinton has been making the rounds laying out her argument for why she is opposed to a ceasefire, even after all of the many civilians who have been killed by Israel in this conflict. She laid out her argument in Atlantic Peace. She said that ceasefires freeze conflicts rather than resolve them. In twenty twelve, freezing the conflict in Gaza was an outcome that we and the Israelis were willing to accept. But Israel's policy since two thousand and nine of containing rather than destroying Hamas has failed. A ceasefire now that restored the pre October seventh status quo would leave the people of Gaza living in a besieged enclave under the domination of terrorists and leave Israeli's vulnerable to continued attacks. It would also consign hundreds of hostages to continued captivity. She also made an appearance on The View where she bolstered this argument with her version of some of the recent history.

Let's take a listen to a little bit of what she said there.

Let's take a listen to a little bit of what she said there.

It's a problem predates October seventh, and I think that's what President Obama was talking about, because let's remember this is a very long and complicated history. My husband, with the Israeli government at the time in two thousand, offered a Palestinian state to the Palestinians at that time run by Arafat, Aasser Arafat and the PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which by the way, took out of its charter violence against Israel. So you've got to separate the Palestinians who believe that there is some future of peace with Hamas, which believes it has to destroy Israel.

It's a problem predates October seventh, and I think that's what President Obama was talking about, because let's remember this is a very long and complicated history. My husband, with the Israeli government at the time in two thousand, offered a Palestinian state to the Palestinians at that time run by Arafat, Aasser Arafat and the PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, which by the way, took out of its charter violence against Israel. So you've got to separate the Palestinians who believe that there is some future of peace with Hamas, which believes it has to destroy Israel.

Those are two.

Those are two.

Different organizations and they have to be viewed in that way. Arafat turned that down. There would have been a Palestinian state now for twenty three years if he had not walked away from it. There was another attempt when I was Secretary of State to try to bring the Palestinians and the Israelis together. That didn't work out. Hamas came in and basically destroyed all of that and killed a lot of other Palestinians. So I think when President Obama says that it requires us to look at the history, and of course history holds all of us accountable.

Different organizations and they have to be viewed in that way. Arafat turned that down. There would have been a Palestinian state now for twenty three years if he had not walked away from it. There was another attempt when I was Secretary of State to try to bring the Palestinians and the Israelis together. That didn't work out. Hamas came in and basically destroyed all of that and killed a lot of other Palestinians. So I think when President Obama says that it requires us to look at the history, and of course history holds all of us accountable.

So what is your view of.

So what is your view of.

Except Hillary Clinton, who destroyed Libya? History holds all of us accountable except Hillary Clinton.

Except Hillary Clinton, who destroyed Libya? History holds all of us accountable except Hillary Clinton.

But let's leave that aside. What I would like you to.

But let's leave that aside. What I would like you to.

Do, Crystal is simply ask me one specific question. From that, she made many many statements. She talked about two thousand when her husband presided over the attempted peace agreement. She talked about Hamas. Hammas destroyed everything she talked about. Ceasefires don't exist. You would not have time for another question if I were to go into all of that. So you use your you know, you use your talents. You're very smart. Which aspect do you find most challenging? And then I'll try to answer it going through the details.

Do, Crystal is simply ask me one specific question. From that, she made many many statements. She talked about two thousand when her husband presided over the attempted peace agreement. She talked about Hamas. Hammas destroyed everything she talked about. Ceasefires don't exist. You would not have time for another question if I were to go into all of that. So you use your you know, you use your talents. You're very smart. Which aspect do you find most challenging? And then I'll try to answer it going through the details.

Well, one of the claims that she made there, which I hear repeated often, is that it was on the Palestinian side that peace has been rejected. And she says there that Palestinians could have had a state now for twenty three years, had Yaser Arafat not walked away from the deal that her husband was attempting to craft. So do you agree with that assessment? What does she get wrong there?

Well, one of the claims that she made there, which I hear repeated often, is that it was on the Palestinian side that peace has been rejected. And she says there that Palestinians could have had a state now for twenty three years, had Yaser Arafat not walked away from the deal that her husband was attempting to craft. So do you agree with that assessment? What does she get wrong there?

Well, she gets everything wrong, and I'm going to try to explain why. I do know the details, and I hope the listeners will forgive me for going into the details. There have been four basic issues to try to resolve this conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Okay, issue is number one borders, Where should the borderline be drawn between Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians accepted the position of the international community. The borderline should be drawn where it was before the June nineteen sixty seven board, that is, the whole of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Gaza would form an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel. The Palestinians accepted the position of the international community. All the legal bodies in the world, the International Court of Justice, all the political bodies, the UN General Assembly, everybody accepted the border should be so it's called the pre June nineteen sixty seven border, or the whole of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Gaza, would be the Palestinian state side by side with Israel.

Well, she gets everything wrong, and I'm going to try to explain why. I do know the details, and I hope the listeners will forgive me for going into the details. There have been four basic issues to try to resolve this conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Okay, issue is number one borders, Where should the borderline be drawn between Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians accepted the position of the international community. The borderline should be drawn where it was before the June nineteen sixty seven board, that is, the whole of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Gaza would form an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel. The Palestinians accepted the position of the international community. All the legal bodies in the world, the International Court of Justice, all the political bodies, the UN General Assembly, everybody accepted the border should be so it's called the pre June nineteen sixty seven border, or the whole of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Gaza, would be the Palestinian state side by side with Israel.

Israel rejected that position.

Israel rejected that position.

Israel wanted a part of the West Bank in its last offer.

Israel wanted a part of the West Bank in its last offer.

In its the last.

In its the last.

Offer, it wanted approximately eight percent of the West Bank, So it rejected the international community's position.

Offer, it wanted approximately eight percent of the West Bank, So it rejected the international community's position.

Number two.

Number two.

Under international law, East Jerusalem belonged to the Palestinian state because under international law it's inadmissible to.

Under international law, East Jerusalem belonged to the Palestinian state because under international law it's inadmissible to.

Acquire territory by war.

Acquire territory by war.

Israel acquired the East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza in the course of the nineteen sixty seven more, it had no legal title to East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza. Israel rejected that position of the international community. It said it wanted parts of East Jerusalem. Number three, there's the question of these settlements that Israel has built in the occupied Palestinian territories, approximately now seven hundred thousand settlers, illegal settlers under international law in the West Bank. All of those settlers are illegally in the West Bank right now as we speak, engaging in a low level at this point ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

Israel acquired the East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and Gaza in the course of the nineteen sixty seven more, it had no legal title to East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza. Israel rejected that position of the international community. It said it wanted parts of East Jerusalem. Number three, there's the question of these settlements that Israel has built in the occupied Palestinian territories, approximately now seven hundred thousand settlers, illegal settlers under international law in the West Bank. All of those settlers are illegally in the West Bank right now as we speak, engaging in a low level at this point ethnic cleansing in the West Bank.

Israel wanted to keep.

Israel wanted to keep.

Under its sovereignty approximately eighty percent of those settlers.

Under its sovereignty approximately eighty percent of those settlers.

And finally, there's the.

And finally, there's the.

Question of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants. Their descendants since nineteen forty eight, Israel said that it would not allow any of those refugees to return under what's called the right of return, the international law which says refugees have the right to return to their homes after the cessation of hostilities.

Question of the Palestinian refugees and their descendants. Their descendants since nineteen forty eight, Israel said that it would not allow any of those refugees to return under what's called the right of return, the international law which says refugees have the right to return to their homes after the cessation of hostilities.

Israel said no.

Israel said no.

Now on all of those questions, borders, Jerusalem, settlements, refugees, on all of those questions, the Palestinians were will to make concessions.

Now on all of those questions, borders, Jerusalem, settlements, refugees, on all of those questions, the Palestinians were will to make concessions.

And in.

And in.

Two thousand, the year two thousand, President Clinton put forth what were called the parameters December two thousand, Parameters for resolving the conflict. All of those parameters required concessions from the Palestinians on the basis of international law. None of Clinton's parameters required concessions from Israel on the basis of international law. Now, I want the listeners to hear the bottom line. In January two thousand and one, both is the rally side and the Palace in the inside accepted what we're called the Clinton parameters with reservations. Both sides said, we accept with reservations. It is factually untrue President Clinton, who's an extremely smart guy, extremely smart guy with a voracious intellectual appetite, he's unfortunately also an exceptional liar. And in his memoir which I read, he simply lied about what happened to his parameters that he put forth in December two thousand and Hillary Clinton, who is apparently quite smart, also as smart as her husband, I'm not sure, but no question, a very smart woman. She is also an inveterate, to the point of pathological liar. That's not, you know, I'm not talking. I'm not trying to be I'm not trying to be at hominem. I think there's quite a lot of evidence going back to why she lost the election, that she's a pathological liar. She literally can't see the lies that she's uttering. So those are just factual questions where I can say with a great deal of confidence, because I've read the entire diplomatic record and I'm willing to debate anybody on it, that what she's saying is false.

Two thousand, the year two thousand, President Clinton put forth what were called the parameters December two thousand, Parameters for resolving the conflict. All of those parameters required concessions from the Palestinians on the basis of international law. None of Clinton's parameters required concessions from Israel on the basis of international law. Now, I want the listeners to hear the bottom line. In January two thousand and one, both is the rally side and the Palace in the inside accepted what we're called the Clinton parameters with reservations. Both sides said, we accept with reservations. It is factually untrue President Clinton, who's an extremely smart guy, extremely smart guy with a voracious intellectual appetite, he's unfortunately also an exceptional liar. And in his memoir which I read, he simply lied about what happened to his parameters that he put forth in December two thousand and Hillary Clinton, who is apparently quite smart, also as smart as her husband, I'm not sure, but no question, a very smart woman. She is also an inveterate, to the point of pathological liar. That's not, you know, I'm not talking. I'm not trying to be I'm not trying to be at hominem. I think there's quite a lot of evidence going back to why she lost the election, that she's a pathological liar. She literally can't see the lies that she's uttering. So those are just factual questions where I can say with a great deal of confidence, because I've read the entire diplomatic record and I'm willing to debate anybody on it, that what she's saying is false.

It's doubly false.

It's doubly false.

It's false because the Palestinians accepted the terms for resolving the conflict which have been developed and ratified by the whole international community. Just to give you one example, every year, every single year, the United Nations General Assembly passes a resolution called Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question, and every year it lays out the terms which I just described. The terms of the settlement are anchored, embedded in international law. Every year, the vote is the whole world, which is to say, approximately one hundred and ninety countries on one site embracing those terms, including the Palestinian representative organizations, and on the other side it's usually the United States, Israel, and several South Sea islands the Marshall Islands allow to Volu Tonga.

It's false because the Palestinians accepted the terms for resolving the conflict which have been developed and ratified by the whole international community. Just to give you one example, every year, every single year, the United Nations General Assembly passes a resolution called Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question, and every year it lays out the terms which I just described. The terms of the settlement are anchored, embedded in international law. Every year, the vote is the whole world, which is to say, approximately one hundred and ninety countries on one site embracing those terms, including the Palestinian representative organizations, and on the other side it's usually the United States, Israel, and several South Sea islands the Marshall Islands allow to Volu Tonga.

On the other side.

On the other side.

Now, if any of your listeners have doubts, which surely they have their right to, all they have to do is google peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question, United Nations General Assembly and that resolution will come right up on the screen.

Now, if any of your listeners have doubts, which surely they have their right to, all they have to do is google peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question, United Nations General Assembly and that resolution will come right up on the screen.

It's a little more.

It's a little more.

Complicated to get to the voting record, but with enough conscientiousness and ingenuity which.

Complicated to get to the voting record, but with enough conscientiousness and ingenuity which.

I lack on the web, I don't know anything about the hues.

I lack on the web, I don't know anything about the hues.

They can easily find the whole world on one side, the US, Israel, and some South Sea island eight tolls.

They can easily find the whole world on one side, the US, Israel, and some South Sea island eight tolls.

On the other side. That's the real record.

On the other side. That's the real record.

And if Hillary Clinton wants to debate me on it or her husband, I'm perfectly happy.

And if Hillary Clinton wants to debate me on it or her husband, I'm perfectly happy.

To do so well, and I would be perfectly happy to moderate that debate. I think that would be great for the country to see.

To do so well, and I would be perfectly happy to moderate that debate. I think that would be great for the country to see.

And I would say, you know, with Bill Clinton, it will be a challenge, but he's a very smart guy, no question about it.

And I would say, you know, with Bill Clinton, it will be a challenge, but he's a very smart guy, no question about it.

But I'm willing to take that challenge.

But I'm willing to take that challenge.

So with you acknowledging that hindsight is twenty twenty and with the advantage of sitting where we are in twenty twenty three and looking over this entire historical record, are there any moments where you feel like Palestinians were failed by their leadership, where if a different decision or a different action had been taken, we might be in a better place today.

So with you acknowledging that hindsight is twenty twenty and with the advantage of sitting where we are in twenty twenty three and looking over this entire historical record, are there any moments where you feel like Palestinians were failed by their leadership, where if a different decision or a different action had been taken, we might be in a better place today.

I would say there are two separate questions. One is the goal, and in my opinion, the goal was completely legitimate because it was trying to settle the conflict in the basis of international law. And I don't think there is really an alternative framework for trying to settle the conflict.

I would say there are two separate questions. One is the goal, and in my opinion, the goal was completely legitimate because it was trying to settle the conflict in the basis of international law. And I don't think there is really an alternative framework for trying to settle the conflict.

And then there's a second, a separate.

And then there's a second, a separate.

Question, whether the Palestine leadership made maximum use of its opportunities to force Israel to the negotiating table. And there, I would say, the record of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the PLO, and then subsequently the Palestine Authority, the record is not great. However, I want to be very careful about this. I do not believe they made the maximum use of available opportunities. However, it should never be forgotten that both the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the PLO and TAMAS, they both attempted nonviolent civil resistance, and in both cases that nonviolent civil resistance was brutly suppressed by the Israeli government.

Question, whether the Palestine leadership made maximum use of its opportunities to force Israel to the negotiating table. And there, I would say, the record of the Palestine Liberation Organization, the PLO, and then subsequently the Palestine Authority, the record is not great. However, I want to be very careful about this. I do not believe they made the maximum use of available opportunities. However, it should never be forgotten that both the Palestinian Liberation Organization, the PLO and TAMAS, they both attempted nonviolent civil resistance, and in both cases that nonviolent civil resistance was brutly suppressed by the Israeli government.

Now, I don't even know.

Now, I don't even know.

How far your memory stretches back, but in nineteen eighty eight, the Palestinians engaged both in both in Gaza and in the West Bank. They engaged in nonviolent civil resistance called it came to be called the First Intafada, the first revolt, non violent civil revolt against Israel, the Israeli occupation. The Israelis under then Defense Minister Defense Minister Yitzak Rabin imposed the policy which was called in public the force, might and beatings policy, in which they brutalized the Palestinian population engaged in nonviolent civil resistance, engaged in massive, massive torture of Palestinian detainees during the First Into Father. They according to Human Rights Watch, they tortured tens of thousands of Palestinian detainees during the First Into Father. In fact, the current editor of Atlantic Magazine, Jeffrey Goldberg, he was a guard in one of those detention facilities, and in his book, his memoir called Prisoners, he describes how he personally, this is the editor of Atlantic Magazine, which currently features the article by Hillary Clinton.

How far your memory stretches back, but in nineteen eighty eight, the Palestinians engaged both in both in Gaza and in the West Bank. They engaged in nonviolent civil resistance called it came to be called the First Intafada, the first revolt, non violent civil revolt against Israel, the Israeli occupation. The Israelis under then Defense Minister Defense Minister Yitzak Rabin imposed the policy which was called in public the force, might and beatings policy, in which they brutalized the Palestinian population engaged in nonviolent civil resistance, engaged in massive, massive torture of Palestinian detainees during the First Into Father. They according to Human Rights Watch, they tortured tens of thousands of Palestinian detainees during the First Into Father. In fact, the current editor of Atlantic Magazine, Jeffrey Goldberg, he was a guard in one of those detention facilities, and in his book, his memoir called Prisoners, he describes how he personally, this is the editor of Atlantic Magazine, which currently features the article by Hillary Clinton.

He describes how he personally.

He describes how he personally.

Escorted Palestinians in the detention center to.

Escorted Palestinians in the detention center to.

The torture chamber.

The torture chamber.

He was personally an accessory to torture during the First Into Fadom.

He was personally an accessory to torture during the First Into Fadom.

And then let's.

And then let's.

Fast forward to what Hillary Clinton calls in that article. She calls hamas an extreme terrorist organization. So this extreme terrorist organization in March twenty eighteen attempted nonviolent civil resistance, the young people and the older people.