Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I want to throw a question out there to you, what, in your estimation is your worst nightmare come true? Now you know this, That statement is so broad, I know, and it can be populated with all manner of horror. Now I think for me, I'm horribly claustrophobic, and that's something that has happened as a result of, you know, my work that I did for years and years. It's just kind of a h one of those little adjunct adjunct things that comes along with PTSD. I couldn't bear the thought of it being locked down, closed in, surrounded by a bunch of people, where I couldn't get out, not being able to breathe, panicked, searching for an exit. Can you imagine waking up in an environment that's not familiar to you, or perhaps you feel danger, you're panicked. Today we're going to talk about a case that, in my estimation, is going to be the stuff of absolute nightmare for many of us. We're going to talk about the death, the resurrection and the death of Constance Glance. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Now we're past Resurrection Sunday, Dave Loath. These many weeks, you know, Easter has ended, you know, and a great celebration something I look forward to at my church, you know, every year. However, there are those events involving death that I think that many of us are fearful of. Many people feel very uncomfortable. I've had people actually feel uncomfortable around me, and I'm pretty approachable guy, because just merely by virtue of the fact that I'm associated with death, as you know, I just my presence makes people uncomfortable. And I've never threatened number or anything like that. You know, they just they know that I've been around that and that sort of thing. But I'm thinking back, we were we were kind of talking about this earlier, and it kind of gave me a chuckle about the links, the links that folks used to go to our ancestors to avoid being buried alive.

Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I want to throw a question out there to you, what, in your estimation is your worst nightmare come true? Now you know this, That statement is so broad, I know, and it can be populated with all manner of horror. Now I think for me, I'm horribly claustrophobic, and that's something that has happened as a result of, you know, my work that I did for years and years. It's just kind of a h one of those little adjunct adjunct things that comes along with PTSD. I couldn't bear the thought of it being locked down, closed in, surrounded by a bunch of people, where I couldn't get out, not being able to breathe, panicked, searching for an exit. Can you imagine waking up in an environment that's not familiar to you, or perhaps you feel danger, you're panicked. Today we're going to talk about a case that, in my estimation, is going to be the stuff of absolute nightmare for many of us. We're going to talk about the death, the resurrection and the death of Constance Glance. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. Now we're past Resurrection Sunday, Dave Loath. These many weeks, you know, Easter has ended, you know, and a great celebration something I look forward to at my church, you know, every year. However, there are those events involving death that I think that many of us are fearful of. Many people feel very uncomfortable. I've had people actually feel uncomfortable around me, and I'm pretty approachable guy, because just merely by virtue of the fact that I'm associated with death, as you know, I just my presence makes people uncomfortable. And I've never threatened number or anything like that. You know, they just they know that I've been around that and that sort of thing. But I'm thinking back, we were we were kind of talking about this earlier, and it kind of gave me a chuckle about the links, the links that folks used to go to our ancestors to avoid being buried alive.

The term saved by the bell is part of that lore.

The term saved by the bell is part of that lore.

You're right, and that's not just a teeny bopper TV show from the nineties. This is there's a reason they Yeah, they used to actually have a bell that was adjacent to a grave side and there would be a string that went through a hole in the ground down into the casket. So if the person who had been freshly buried, let's say it that way, were to suddenly awaken, yep, they could pull on the string and ring the bell. And there were actually also see how can I describe this other people, There were actually these horns that came up out of the ground. When I say horns, they're like megaphones. Old megaphones that yeah, that had a cup that you would speak into and it would transmit the sound through the bell that was above ground and people could hear you.

You're right, and that's not just a teeny bopper TV show from the nineties. This is there's a reason they Yeah, they used to actually have a bell that was adjacent to a grave side and there would be a string that went through a hole in the ground down into the casket. So if the person who had been freshly buried, let's say it that way, were to suddenly awaken, yep, they could pull on the string and ring the bell. And there were actually also see how can I describe this other people, There were actually these horns that came up out of the ground. When I say horns, they're like megaphones. Old megaphones that yeah, that had a cup that you would speak into and it would transmit the sound through the bell that was above ground and people could hear you.

I hope somebody would hear it.

I hope somebody would hear it.

Yeah, no kidding. And I think that they used to actually have a group of people that I don't know the specific name, other than maybe grave watchers, that would hang out for twenty four hours after burial in some circumstances, just to guarantee that the person that had been buried was in fact deceased again. And this goes back to Tom's when you know, prior to embalming, right, all right, Embalming is not something I know, we hear about it with the ancient Egyptians and all that sort of thing. It's not something thing that has been around forever and ever in Western society. Okay, So the fact that today we have a case of a lady who was declared dead and turned out not to be dead.

Yeah, no kidding. And I think that they used to actually have a group of people that I don't know the specific name, other than maybe grave watchers, that would hang out for twenty four hours after burial in some circumstances, just to guarantee that the person that had been buried was in fact deceased again. And this goes back to Tom's when you know, prior to embalming, right, all right, Embalming is not something I know, we hear about it with the ancient Egyptians and all that sort of thing. It's not something thing that has been around forever and ever in Western society. Okay, So the fact that today we have a case of a lady who was declared dead and turned out not to be dead.

Right, that's the name of wame right there.

Right, that's the name of wame right there.

And and she doesn't really come to in the funeral home, but it was a funeral home worker that essentially saved her life, at least for a very short space of time.

And and she doesn't really come to in the funeral home, but it was a funeral home worker that essentially saved her life, at least for a very short space of time.

Well, all right, Constance Glance seventy four years old. She was already in a nursing home, extended care, late care, whatever you want to call it, but in a nursing home, and they were she was on that that zone of life where yeah, your family has already said their goodbyes, and.

Well, all right, Constance Glance seventy four years old. She was already in a nursing home, extended care, late care, whatever you want to call it, but in a nursing home, and they were she was on that that zone of life where yeah, your family has already said their goodbyes, and.

Yeah, end of life care, refresh.

Yeah, end of life care, refresh.

Today to go, thank you. That was always trying to come up with end of life care. Well, the staff at the nursing home, believe you know, the nurse goes into check on her and doesn't appear to be breathing, can't find a pulse, and calling the nurse practitioner who comes in, I guess and yep, she's dead. Now. I don't know if they got a mirror and put it up under her nose or anything like that, but she was believed to have passed away at nine four am. Because it's in a nursing home in Nebraska, they don't call the coroner, right because it's not a suspicious death. It's expected. Ye, So rather than a corner being called in to declare her dead, she is sent directly to the funeral home. Now, once she's at the funeral home, somebody, a worker preparing the funeral. I guess, man, it might not have been for her. You know, they're prepared, being a funeral generic term there, realizes she's breathing. Now, I don't know if she burped, coughed. I don't know what happened. But this worker thankfully realized that this woman was breathing, she was still alive. And this is a couple hours after the fact. We're not talking minutes. We're talking a couple hours after she'd been nicclared dead. The funeral home worker. I don't know what happens after this, Joe. I mean, I don't know the process. When you're in there in the funeral home. You know there's several rooms in a funeral home. You know, there are living quarters. They're the areas where they display the deceased for visitation. There's usually a small casket room displaying other caskets that you could purchase. At some funeral homes, you have a kitchen area, and you have the embalming area.

Today to go, thank you. That was always trying to come up with end of life care. Well, the staff at the nursing home, believe you know, the nurse goes into check on her and doesn't appear to be breathing, can't find a pulse, and calling the nurse practitioner who comes in, I guess and yep, she's dead. Now. I don't know if they got a mirror and put it up under her nose or anything like that, but she was believed to have passed away at nine four am. Because it's in a nursing home in Nebraska, they don't call the coroner, right because it's not a suspicious death. It's expected. Ye, So rather than a corner being called in to declare her dead, she is sent directly to the funeral home. Now, once she's at the funeral home, somebody, a worker preparing the funeral. I guess, man, it might not have been for her. You know, they're prepared, being a funeral generic term there, realizes she's breathing. Now, I don't know if she burped, coughed. I don't know what happened. But this worker thankfully realized that this woman was breathing, she was still alive. And this is a couple hours after the fact. We're not talking minutes. We're talking a couple hours after she'd been nicclared dead. The funeral home worker. I don't know what happens after this, Joe. I mean, I don't know the process. When you're in there in the funeral home. You know there's several rooms in a funeral home. You know, there are living quarters. They're the areas where they display the deceased for visitation. There's usually a small casket room displaying other caskets that you could purchase. At some funeral homes, you have a kitchen area, and you have the embalming area.

Yeah, the prep room, prep room.

Yeah, the prep room, prep room.

Yeah, so I don't know, I'm going to assume that she's in the prep room.

Yeah, so I don't know, I'm going to assume that she's in the prep room.

Yes, that would be where. And they have actually somebody to put.

Yes, that would be where. And they have actually somebody to put.

A dead body in a funeral home.

A dead body in a funeral home.

Right exactly, And it has to be done, and it's generally done in a very tasteful sense. I got a tag. I got to make a confession to you.

Right exactly, And it has to be done, and it's generally done in a very tasteful sense. I got a tag. I got to make a confession to you.

Here funeral home Confessions. Here we go, new TV show.

Here funeral home Confessions. Here we go, new TV show.

It's a million dollar idea, isn't it. Funeral homes creep me out. They always have And even even in my in my world, which I've spent a lot of time in funeral homes, because I've actually had to go there after the fact to conduct examinations on bodies before we actually say, okay, we're going to go ahead and say you know, you can proceed with the preparation of the body. And of course I've been there unfortunately many times for people that I've known and loved that have passed away. But there there's something about the the the artificial nature of it, the manufactured ambiance, if you will, the creepy lighting, the music, the power point, all that stuff, even the way the place smells. It's just it's not. It's not someplace that I look forward to going to at any point in time, even as a forensic scientist. And I've been to many prep rooms. I've been. I've been to prep rooms over the years where bodies are in various states of the prep, pre embalming and post embalming, and certainly in the midst of the embalming. You know, part of me was fascinated by that because I wouldn't see how the process worked, and I have many times, but I cannot even begin to imagine this worker who is there, who is getting ready. Just keep in mind that is getting ready to essentially profuse the body with embalming fluid, because that's the next step you have to do that. And what do they notice, Well, they notice that the chest is apparently rising and falling, that constance chest is apparently rising and falling, giving an indication that she still has life. And you talk about being in an odd space here you are you normally are taking care of individuals mortal remains, but I can and again I'm super imposing my thoughts upon this. They started CPR on her day, and while they were doing CPR, they were I can't even begin to imagine what was going through their minds at this moment. Tom and they had said that, you know that they started CPR, and I'm thinking, well, if she's breathing, if you notice she was breathing, why are you doing CPR. But they did call nine to eleven, and nine to eleven came to the facility. So that's that's kind of a weird bit there for me to try.

It's a million dollar idea, isn't it. Funeral homes creep me out. They always have And even even in my in my world, which I've spent a lot of time in funeral homes, because I've actually had to go there after the fact to conduct examinations on bodies before we actually say, okay, we're going to go ahead and say you know, you can proceed with the preparation of the body. And of course I've been there unfortunately many times for people that I've known and loved that have passed away. But there there's something about the the the artificial nature of it, the manufactured ambiance, if you will, the creepy lighting, the music, the power point, all that stuff, even the way the place smells. It's just it's not. It's not someplace that I look forward to going to at any point in time, even as a forensic scientist. And I've been to many prep rooms. I've been. I've been to prep rooms over the years where bodies are in various states of the prep, pre embalming and post embalming, and certainly in the midst of the embalming. You know, part of me was fascinated by that because I wouldn't see how the process worked, and I have many times, but I cannot even begin to imagine this worker who is there, who is getting ready. Just keep in mind that is getting ready to essentially profuse the body with embalming fluid, because that's the next step you have to do that. And what do they notice, Well, they notice that the chest is apparently rising and falling, that constance chest is apparently rising and falling, giving an indication that she still has life. And you talk about being in an odd space here you are you normally are taking care of individuals mortal remains, but I can and again I'm super imposing my thoughts upon this. They started CPR on her day, and while they were doing CPR, they were I can't even begin to imagine what was going through their minds at this moment. Tom and they had said that, you know that they started CPR, and I'm thinking, well, if she's breathing, if you notice she was breathing, why are you doing CPR. But they did call nine to eleven, and nine to eleven came to the facility. So that's that's kind of a weird bit there for me to try.

They do CPR and I.

They do CPR and I.

Have no idea. And you know, because if she if the chest is rising and falling, that's an indication that life is still in dwelling.

Have no idea. And you know, because if she if the chest is rising and falling, that's an indication that life is still in dwelling.

So maybe maybe maybe she saw the breathing and then realized that she stopped breathing.

So maybe maybe maybe she saw the breathing and then realized that she stopped breathing.

And she may have, but you know, when you have people. Now, let's keep in mind Constance was in a nursing home, but she's also been identified as a hospice patient. Okay, Now, you can have a whole wing of a nursing facility that is devoted to hospice care, and these patients are completely different than the rest of the population. Okay that in dwells a facility, and these facilities sometimes can be massive, all right, So they're providing what is referred to as palliative care. Palliative care is you're making the individual comparable in this in the last the final weeks or days, maybe months, I don't it's hard to say, leading toward their end. And it's called palliative care.

And she may have, but you know, when you have people. Now, let's keep in mind Constance was in a nursing home, but she's also been identified as a hospice patient. Okay, Now, you can have a whole wing of a nursing facility that is devoted to hospice care, and these patients are completely different than the rest of the population. Okay that in dwells a facility, and these facilities sometimes can be massive, all right, So they're providing what is referred to as palliative care. Palliative care is you're making the individual comparable in this in the last the final weeks or days, maybe months, I don't it's hard to say, leading toward their end. And it's called palliative care.

I always thought that just meant that you were giving them friendly care. But I guess you are being a pal you know.

I always thought that just meant that you were giving them friendly care. But I guess you are being a pal you know.

Yeah, well palliative Yeah, it has kind of a different Yeah, it kind of does, but it does have a different connotation here. And here's the thing you mentioned the corner And I want to get back to this, yeah very quickly, because I think that many folks assume that every time someone dies, the corner is is notified or corner slash medical examiner, and that is not the case. The law, dependent upon the state that you're in has a have have pretty pretty specific rules about when when the medical legal authorities are notified. But almost across the board, if you have an attended death with a with a care provider present or approximating the body they've got a history of some kind of illness that is either terminal or could be a terminal leading up to a terminal event, and it can be documented. Sometimes those cases are not reportable, and taking another step with hospice hospice death, those are never reportable to the coroner, and so they they do fly beneath the radar many times. So there wouldn't be a need if someone passes away in a hospital, I mean in a in a hospice situation, there wouldn't be a need to contact us. And you never know, first off, what has brought the person to the nursing home facility to begin with. Now, maybe they sustained trauma many many years ago. Can I tell you a quick story that's kind of fascinating. I actually did an autopsy on a guy that went into a nursing facility. His first nursing facility that we could make a note of was I think in nineteen forty eight. I did his autopsy. I assisted in his autopsy in nineteen eighty nine, and he had come in paralyzed below the waist. Now you say, well, all the way back in the forties, why in the world would you do an autopsy on somebody like that. You want to hear something really amazing. This young man had participated in the Battle of the Bulge. Oh wow, he sustained a rifle wound to his ab and I actually, I'm actually the person that went into his spine with striker saw and recovered that projectile. And did you know that after all of those years, the pathologists that I was working with, they ruled his manner of death as a homicide. And I'll never forget this. This stands out in my mind so much to parts of this the fact that when we removed that projectile, I was holding in my hand literally a piece of history, because this projectile had last been touched and loaded into the weapon of probably some young German soldier in the Wehrmat that was at the Battle of the Bulge and had fired that rifle and struck this equally young soldier in the abdomen and started this chain of events that led to his death decades later. And I held that project on mine and I'll never forget it was like one of those moments where you're touching history, but the kind of have cause and effect there, and that they did report that death to us, and we wanted to examine him because they told us he still has a bullet in him. But wow, many times and I guess he could have gone on to hospice maybe, but in most states, when you have somebody that is in hospice care, those are not going to be reportable to the coroner. And in Constance case, she had they had diagnosed her. If she is on hospice, which we are discovering here, then she would be in kind of a terminal phase of her life where she's moving toward death. But how in the world are you going to do the assessment that facilitates you and your facility releasing her body to a funeral home where she's going to be prepared to be buried. You know, they say that if you see a cardinal in your yard, that's a visitation, that's a messenger sent by God, perhaps even to give an indication that you have a loved one.

Yeah, well palliative Yeah, it has kind of a different Yeah, it kind of does, but it does have a different connotation here. And here's the thing you mentioned the corner And I want to get back to this, yeah very quickly, because I think that many folks assume that every time someone dies, the corner is is notified or corner slash medical examiner, and that is not the case. The law, dependent upon the state that you're in has a have have pretty pretty specific rules about when when the medical legal authorities are notified. But almost across the board, if you have an attended death with a with a care provider present or approximating the body they've got a history of some kind of illness that is either terminal or could be a terminal leading up to a terminal event, and it can be documented. Sometimes those cases are not reportable, and taking another step with hospice hospice death, those are never reportable to the coroner, and so they they do fly beneath the radar many times. So there wouldn't be a need if someone passes away in a hospital, I mean in a in a hospice situation, there wouldn't be a need to contact us. And you never know, first off, what has brought the person to the nursing home facility to begin with. Now, maybe they sustained trauma many many years ago. Can I tell you a quick story that's kind of fascinating. I actually did an autopsy on a guy that went into a nursing facility. His first nursing facility that we could make a note of was I think in nineteen forty eight. I did his autopsy. I assisted in his autopsy in nineteen eighty nine, and he had come in paralyzed below the waist. Now you say, well, all the way back in the forties, why in the world would you do an autopsy on somebody like that. You want to hear something really amazing. This young man had participated in the Battle of the Bulge. Oh wow, he sustained a rifle wound to his ab and I actually, I'm actually the person that went into his spine with striker saw and recovered that projectile. And did you know that after all of those years, the pathologists that I was working with, they ruled his manner of death as a homicide. And I'll never forget this. This stands out in my mind so much to parts of this the fact that when we removed that projectile, I was holding in my hand literally a piece of history, because this projectile had last been touched and loaded into the weapon of probably some young German soldier in the Wehrmat that was at the Battle of the Bulge and had fired that rifle and struck this equally young soldier in the abdomen and started this chain of events that led to his death decades later. And I held that project on mine and I'll never forget it was like one of those moments where you're touching history, but the kind of have cause and effect there, and that they did report that death to us, and we wanted to examine him because they told us he still has a bullet in him. But wow, many times and I guess he could have gone on to hospice maybe, but in most states, when you have somebody that is in hospice care, those are not going to be reportable to the coroner. And in Constance case, she had they had diagnosed her. If she is on hospice, which we are discovering here, then she would be in kind of a terminal phase of her life where she's moving toward death. But how in the world are you going to do the assessment that facilitates you and your facility releasing her body to a funeral home where she's going to be prepared to be buried. You know, they say that if you see a cardinal in your yard, that's a visitation, that's a messenger sent by God, perhaps even to give an indication that you have a loved one.

That's some of the red birds, right, the red birds. Yeah, I was thinking, because don't Catholics have cardinals And.

That's some of the red birds, right, the red birds. Yeah, I was thinking, because don't Catholics have cardinals And.

Yeah, yeah, that's it's an ecclesiastical ecclesiastical post and it's a high ranking priest the College of Cardinals. But those are nouns aren't they. We have something in death investigation that is actually an adjective, and so it means for us, we have what are referred to DAVE as the cardinal the cardinal signs of death, and it's one of the little lists that we go down to assess deceased individuals. When you begin to look at subjects at the scene, the first thing you need to do is try to validate your presence at to see why am I here? You're calling me out because you have determined that this individual is dead. You might be saying they're dead, but let me tell you something. I'm going to prove to myself that they are in fact deceased, no longer existing in this realm.

Yeah, yeah, that's it's an ecclesiastical ecclesiastical post and it's a high ranking priest the College of Cardinals. But those are nouns aren't they. We have something in death investigation that is actually an adjective, and so it means for us, we have what are referred to DAVE as the cardinal the cardinal signs of death, and it's one of the little lists that we go down to assess deceased individuals. When you begin to look at subjects at the scene, the first thing you need to do is try to validate your presence at to see why am I here? You're calling me out because you have determined that this individual is dead. You might be saying they're dead, but let me tell you something. I'm going to prove to myself that they are in fact deceased, no longer existing in this realm.

Have you ever called out to a dead body that wasn't dead?

Have you ever called out to a dead body that wasn't dead?

Not in me?

Not in me?

Okay, not me.

Okay, not me.

However, However, when I was in Atlanta, and this is going to blow you away, one of my colleagues was, and I'll give you the quick, quick thumbnail. Here this colleague of mine who was a really old death investigator, even he was much older at this period of time. And this guy was highly experienced. He had been a homicide detective in Atlanta, and he gets called out to what is the police are reporting as a suicide, and it is a gentleman that has killed himself in a bathtub by slashing his wrist. And the bathtub is full of warm water. It's up to the very top and it is tinged with red blood. You know, guy's knew in the bathtub and his hands are resting on the sides of the tub, and is both of the wrist are slit. And this investigator with our office went over, walked over to the body and starts taking This is back in the days when we still did polaroid snapshots and thirty five milimeters. We'd also do polaroids for quick reference. This is before digital cameras, and so he's snapping polaroid photographs. And he had brought along a physician that was in training with him to become a forensic pathologist. This individual walked over, had their gloves on, knelt next to the tub, and when they went to reach for the body to do their examination, the dead guy's hand went up in the air like this at the wrist. It bent at the wrist and went up and this individual turned to the investigator and said, this guy's alive. Now, this is in a bloody bathtub. Now, this is a monumental failure on the part of the paramedics, to a lesser degree, the police, because the police are not really there to assess death. The empts had come out, and you know what we determined at that point in time was that because of the supersaturation that was surrounding the body. And you know what they say about assume, they assumed that they were dead, but they didn't want to put their hands in the bloody water. Isn't that something? Well, the investigator whom I had mentioned was a foreign police officer. He goes outside of the apartment and there's a cop standing post at the door, and he starts, as we say, down in the South, he starts giving him down in the country. He's yelling and screaming at this cop. He's up in his face like a Marine Corps DI and he's saying, get the wagon back out here immediately. I want you to know, in that particular case, the wagon did roll back out. The ambulance did. It wasn't the same crew. They're probably hiding under a rock. They pulled that guy out of the water day. They saved that guy's life. Wow, they stitched him up, transfused him, put him on psych unit. He got he got healthy, Wow, and he was He went on with his life. I don't know whatever became of him, but those things do happen. And and and for us, we're looking for the cardinal signs of death and forensics. Let me run some of these down for you, and I want people to understand this. This is one of the things we do as death investigators, try to obsess and this was not done with constants. I don't think we look for. First off, is there a palpable pulse? You know, you can check the curate it in the neck, you can check the radial pulse, and the wrist you can check the brachial pulse, which is if you stick your finger between your biceph on the the medial aspect of it and press in, you can actually feel very You can feel stronger there below your bicep, on the inner portion of your bicep, much better than you can the radial pulse in your wrist. You know that would show people holding the wrist, you can feel it a lot better. At the break heal. You can even do ephemeral palpitation. That's a bit born difficult. So you're looking for a pulse or an absence thereof you're also looking for absence of respiration. And so how do you do that. Well, if you don't have a stethoscope handy where you can hear breast sounds, you can actually get down to the level of the body so that you're even with their chest. They're in your eye line and you can look and see if the chest is rising and falling. Now you had mentioned a mirror earlier. There are some people that you know, fogging the mirror is what it's called. Do they fog the mirror. I've never come across anybody that assesses that way. I'm assuming that it has been done at some point in time. Another thing you look for is non responsiveness to what we refer to as painful stimuli. And if you've ever seen somebody that in us that is passed out, uh, and you're around the e mts that are assessing them, you'll see them do a sternal rub. That's where they take their knuckles and it's it's very painful. They'll press down on the stern them and rub vigorously and you're going to wake up. Relative to that, you can even with gloved hands. You can even touch the eyeball, and there's there's a reflex that occurs in that that you're going to respond where the person will blink. From an evidentiary standpoint, it's not really a good idea. And of course we look for things like obvious signs of of of decomposition. We also look for, you know, if they've got a foul odor and skin is changing color, you know, you can pretty much say that the person's probably passed on to their reward at that at that possible at that time. And we also look for things in the immediate, you know, like a rigidity with rick or mortis and all those sorts of things post mortal avidity. But you know, just the part of the rising and following in the chest, the absence of a heartbeat, and non responsiveness to painful stimuli. Those are just three in the immediate that you could do. Now, there are people that are in such a state and they're in hospice care where they're kind of in that lingering, that kind of twilight zone, if you will, where they're almost comatose, and you might not be able to fully appreciate the status of the individual at that particular time, and that can be problematic, I would assume because the individual is not in fact demonstrating kind of life signs. But with constance rolled she rolled out of the door on a gurney. Now keep in mind, on a gurney, Dave that's either placed into a van or a hearse. I can't believe this, and carted off to the local funeral home and where they're going to prep her.

However, However, when I was in Atlanta, and this is going to blow you away, one of my colleagues was, and I'll give you the quick, quick thumbnail. Here this colleague of mine who was a really old death investigator, even he was much older at this period of time. And this guy was highly experienced. He had been a homicide detective in Atlanta, and he gets called out to what is the police are reporting as a suicide, and it is a gentleman that has killed himself in a bathtub by slashing his wrist. And the bathtub is full of warm water. It's up to the very top and it is tinged with red blood. You know, guy's knew in the bathtub and his hands are resting on the sides of the tub, and is both of the wrist are slit. And this investigator with our office went over, walked over to the body and starts taking This is back in the days when we still did polaroid snapshots and thirty five milimeters. We'd also do polaroids for quick reference. This is before digital cameras, and so he's snapping polaroid photographs. And he had brought along a physician that was in training with him to become a forensic pathologist. This individual walked over, had their gloves on, knelt next to the tub, and when they went to reach for the body to do their examination, the dead guy's hand went up in the air like this at the wrist. It bent at the wrist and went up and this individual turned to the investigator and said, this guy's alive. Now, this is in a bloody bathtub. Now, this is a monumental failure on the part of the paramedics, to a lesser degree, the police, because the police are not really there to assess death. The empts had come out, and you know what we determined at that point in time was that because of the supersaturation that was surrounding the body. And you know what they say about assume, they assumed that they were dead, but they didn't want to put their hands in the bloody water. Isn't that something? Well, the investigator whom I had mentioned was a foreign police officer. He goes outside of the apartment and there's a cop standing post at the door, and he starts, as we say, down in the South, he starts giving him down in the country. He's yelling and screaming at this cop. He's up in his face like a Marine Corps DI and he's saying, get the wagon back out here immediately. I want you to know, in that particular case, the wagon did roll back out. The ambulance did. It wasn't the same crew. They're probably hiding under a rock. They pulled that guy out of the water day. They saved that guy's life. Wow, they stitched him up, transfused him, put him on psych unit. He got he got healthy, Wow, and he was He went on with his life. I don't know whatever became of him, but those things do happen. And and and for us, we're looking for the cardinal signs of death and forensics. Let me run some of these down for you, and I want people to understand this. This is one of the things we do as death investigators, try to obsess and this was not done with constants. I don't think we look for. First off, is there a palpable pulse? You know, you can check the curate it in the neck, you can check the radial pulse, and the wrist you can check the brachial pulse, which is if you stick your finger between your biceph on the the medial aspect of it and press in, you can actually feel very You can feel stronger there below your bicep, on the inner portion of your bicep, much better than you can the radial pulse in your wrist. You know that would show people holding the wrist, you can feel it a lot better. At the break heal. You can even do ephemeral palpitation. That's a bit born difficult. So you're looking for a pulse or an absence thereof you're also looking for absence of respiration. And so how do you do that. Well, if you don't have a stethoscope handy where you can hear breast sounds, you can actually get down to the level of the body so that you're even with their chest. They're in your eye line and you can look and see if the chest is rising and falling. Now you had mentioned a mirror earlier. There are some people that you know, fogging the mirror is what it's called. Do they fog the mirror. I've never come across anybody that assesses that way. I'm assuming that it has been done at some point in time. Another thing you look for is non responsiveness to what we refer to as painful stimuli. And if you've ever seen somebody that in us that is passed out, uh, and you're around the e mts that are assessing them, you'll see them do a sternal rub. That's where they take their knuckles and it's it's very painful. They'll press down on the stern them and rub vigorously and you're going to wake up. Relative to that, you can even with gloved hands. You can even touch the eyeball, and there's there's a reflex that occurs in that that you're going to respond where the person will blink. From an evidentiary standpoint, it's not really a good idea. And of course we look for things like obvious signs of of of decomposition. We also look for, you know, if they've got a foul odor and skin is changing color, you know, you can pretty much say that the person's probably passed on to their reward at that at that possible at that time. And we also look for things in the immediate, you know, like a rigidity with rick or mortis and all those sorts of things post mortal avidity. But you know, just the part of the rising and following in the chest, the absence of a heartbeat, and non responsiveness to painful stimuli. Those are just three in the immediate that you could do. Now, there are people that are in such a state and they're in hospice care where they're kind of in that lingering, that kind of twilight zone, if you will, where they're almost comatose, and you might not be able to fully appreciate the status of the individual at that particular time, and that can be problematic, I would assume because the individual is not in fact demonstrating kind of life signs. But with constance rolled she rolled out of the door on a gurney. Now keep in mind, on a gurney, Dave that's either placed into a van or a hearse. I can't believe this, and carted off to the local funeral home and where they're going to prep her.

That's a lot of people involved in her train. Oh my gosh, nobody taken a close look. Because she's at a nursing home. It's end of life care. They call us, she's passed away, and you go there and gently respectfully you're I would just you know again that assume you're basing your activity on those that preceded you by calling and saying, we have an elderly woman who has passed away. No need to call the coroner. Just take her to you know, Mulberry funeral home or no, it's Mulberry nursing home is where she was. Take her to the funeral home. Now, they were very specific that she passed away. They declared her at nine four am. My first thought on this, Joe was Andy Griffith really. Yep. Andy Griffith passed away on the outer banks of North Carolina and he died at about seven thirty that morning, and they held his burial within five hours. It was part of his end of life plan. He was not embalmed. And I don't believe there is a state of the union that actually requires embalming, but in this particular case, he was not embalmed. He was having breakfast with his wife at seven fifteen, seven thirty. He's dead before lunch. He's in the ground. And my thought was this, what if he was just lightly breathing, you know, and anyway, so that was like again my thought was I hope he was really dead.

That's a lot of people involved in her train. Oh my gosh, nobody taken a close look. Because she's at a nursing home. It's end of life care. They call us, she's passed away, and you go there and gently respectfully you're I would just you know again that assume you're basing your activity on those that preceded you by calling and saying, we have an elderly woman who has passed away. No need to call the coroner. Just take her to you know, Mulberry funeral home or no, it's Mulberry nursing home is where she was. Take her to the funeral home. Now, they were very specific that she passed away. They declared her at nine four am. My first thought on this, Joe was Andy Griffith really. Yep. Andy Griffith passed away on the outer banks of North Carolina and he died at about seven thirty that morning, and they held his burial within five hours. It was part of his end of life plan. He was not embalmed. And I don't believe there is a state of the union that actually requires embalming, but in this particular case, he was not embalmed. He was having breakfast with his wife at seven fifteen, seven thirty. He's dead before lunch. He's in the ground. And my thought was this, what if he was just lightly breathing, you know, and anyway, so that was like again my thought was I hope he was really dead.

Yeah, I know. Isn't that a horrifying thought? You know, because one of the things that you think that is conjured up in our minds and we hear this and you've seen it in movies before. As a matter of fact, I think in the original Brendan Fraser Mummy movie, they showed the interior of a sarcophagus and there were scratch marks on the interior of the sarcophagus, and so that generates kind of this unease, if you will, And yeah, exactly, and you really wonder if this has in fact happened before. But we have to say that you never know what's waiting around the corner in any death investigation. It doesn't necessarily have to be some big trauma event, because I know from my experience surprises await us around every corner. Let me ask you a question, David, what do you think? What do you think? My biggest fear was when I was working in.

Yeah, I know. Isn't that a horrifying thought? You know, because one of the things that you think that is conjured up in our minds and we hear this and you've seen it in movies before. As a matter of fact, I think in the original Brendan Fraser Mummy movie, they showed the interior of a sarcophagus and there were scratch marks on the interior of the sarcophagus, and so that generates kind of this unease, if you will, And yeah, exactly, and you really wonder if this has in fact happened before. But we have to say that you never know what's waiting around the corner in any death investigation. It doesn't necessarily have to be some big trauma event, because I know from my experience surprises await us around every corner. Let me ask you a question, David, what do you think? What do you think? My biggest fear was when I was working in.

The morgue, Oh, dead person waking up?

The morgue, Oh, dead person waking up?

Yeah, to a certain degree, my biggest fear was that. And I actually had this as a nightmare, a reoccurrent nightmare, and I think that it was because just maybe the mathematical probability had entered.

Yeah, to a certain degree, my biggest fear was that. And I actually had this as a nightmare, a reoccurrent nightmare, and I think that it was because just maybe the mathematical probability had entered.

Into my brain.

Into my brain.

I had. I had an absolute terror of holding a number twenty two scalpel in my hand, which is generally what I did autopsies with, which is a blade size.

I had. I had an absolute terror of holding a number twenty two scalpel in my hand, which is generally what I did autopsies with, which is a blade size.

By the way, I was going to ask you, because you say number twenty two, you may say they come in you know, they come in a variety of sizes.

By the way, I was going to ask you, because you say number twenty two, you may say they come in you know, they come in a variety of sizes.

But anyway, it had the most utility from my purpose. And when I make that initial incision, which is the why incision, it starts at, you know, the apex of the shoulders. You know that it would not be blood that would come out of the incision in a seeping kind of way. It would be an arterial spray. I always had that that dream, that reoccurrent dream. And you know, you you hear all of these stories day because you know, our history is populated by these things. I mean, it really is. They don't happen with great frequency where somebody does in fact wake up in the morgue. But there are those cases out there. I think you had mentioned there's one just in the past year.

But anyway, it had the most utility from my purpose. And when I make that initial incision, which is the why incision, it starts at, you know, the apex of the shoulders. You know that it would not be blood that would come out of the incision in a seeping kind of way. It would be an arterial spray. I always had that that dream, that reoccurrent dream. And you know, you you hear all of these stories day because you know, our history is populated by these things. I mean, it really is. They don't happen with great frequency where somebody does in fact wake up in the morgue. But there are those cases out there. I think you had mentioned there's one just in the past year.

Out the three, they've been three in US nursing homes in the last year. And in one case, the nursing home was fined ten thousand dollars and it was in Iowa where it granted. Now, this was a woman who was an end of life care. She had dementia and was suffering from Alzheimer's. But she was only sixty six years old, Joe, and she was determined to be dead. And in this particular case, staff members at the Glen Oaks Alzheimer's Special Care Center reported that she had passed away about six am. As I mentioned, she had early onset dementia and anxiety and depression. She had a number of issues for being in this hospice care, and a staff member reported that she could no longer feel the woman's pulse and ordered. In this case Iowa, a nurse practitioner can declare make a death declaration. And it's different in every status who actually can do this And Iowa law allows nurses, physicians, assistants addition to doctors to declare a patient dead. In this case, it was a nurse practitioner who declared the woman dead about ninety minutes Joe. Ninety minutes after she was declared dead, she was taken to the funeral home and crematorium in a zipped body bag. In a zipped body bag. When she arrives at the funeral home, they unzipped her and somebody saw her chest was moving and she gasped for air.

Out the three, they've been three in US nursing homes in the last year. And in one case, the nursing home was fined ten thousand dollars and it was in Iowa where it granted. Now, this was a woman who was an end of life care. She had dementia and was suffering from Alzheimer's. But she was only sixty six years old, Joe, and she was determined to be dead. And in this particular case, staff members at the Glen Oaks Alzheimer's Special Care Center reported that she had passed away about six am. As I mentioned, she had early onset dementia and anxiety and depression. She had a number of issues for being in this hospice care, and a staff member reported that she could no longer feel the woman's pulse and ordered. In this case Iowa, a nurse practitioner can declare make a death declaration. And it's different in every status who actually can do this And Iowa law allows nurses, physicians, assistants addition to doctors to declare a patient dead. In this case, it was a nurse practitioner who declared the woman dead about ninety minutes Joe. Ninety minutes after she was declared dead, she was taken to the funeral home and crematorium in a zipped body bag. In a zipped body bag. When she arrives at the funeral home, they unzipped her and somebody saw her chest was moving and she gasped for air.

I bet she did.

I bet she did.

She was in a body bag, Joe. Yeah, oh my goodness.

She was in a body bag, Joe. Yeah, oh my goodness.

Yes, it's terrifying stuff. And they called nine one one. Yeah. Well, I'm glad they did because, you know, and in constance case, you know, full reveal here, she didn't make it through the day. No, you know, she she was transported to the hospital and she's fragile to begin with, obviously, if she's in hospice care and palliative care and so she I don't know that she mercifully ever regained conscious consciousness. But right now I think my thoughts kind of moved towards the family because you know, they're having to they're having to process all of this coming in, you know, because okay, so let's just say, and this is the way it would happen, she passes away at at this nursing home. As soon as she she passes away, there's a mechanism that goes into place. The family is notified. Now, as you said, if she's in hospice status, the family, this is not unexpected, right, So can you imagine this scenario. You're the family, You get the call that Constance has passed on. Okay, well, in hospice care what's mandated. And in any nursing home, many times they will have a designated funeral home that's already in your chart. Okay, So just so that you understand that, the family would have said, okay, well go ahead, call the funeral home. We have it listed down there. They call the funeral home. Funeral home comes and picks up, picks up Constance Okay, Now we don't know how her body was prepped, because in certain hospitals and facilities, what they'll do is they'll use what's called a morgpack. A morkpack is not a body bag. It is a plastic wrapping that goes around the body and it has strings with it where you can tie the body off. It's tied around the neck, and it's tied around the waist, it's tied around the feet, and it almost looks like kite string that comes in this thing, and they'll be placed onto a gurney and they will be covered. Have you ever seen those coverings that funeral homes use. They're kind of they look like carpet. They're furry looking and in grand calligraphy, embroidery, calligraphy along the side. It'll have the logo of the funeral home on this thing, and they're pushing. You see it at crime scenes many times people that use contractors like this, they'll be pushing the body. So that's the way this would have gone down. And then they because most nursing home facilities don't have morgus, so they the funeral home literally comes to the room, removes the body off of the bed, places the body onto the gurney, covers it in this this thing that identifies the funeral home, goes down the hallway, places the body in the back of a hearse and it could be a van, and then they drive off. But then then there's.

Yes, it's terrifying stuff. And they called nine one one. Yeah. Well, I'm glad they did because, you know, and in constance case, you know, full reveal here, she didn't make it through the day. No, you know, she she was transported to the hospital and she's fragile to begin with, obviously, if she's in hospice care and palliative care and so she I don't know that she mercifully ever regained conscious consciousness. But right now I think my thoughts kind of moved towards the family because you know, they're having to they're having to process all of this coming in, you know, because okay, so let's just say, and this is the way it would happen, she passes away at at this nursing home. As soon as she she passes away, there's a mechanism that goes into place. The family is notified. Now, as you said, if she's in hospice status, the family, this is not unexpected, right, So can you imagine this scenario. You're the family, You get the call that Constance has passed on. Okay, well, in hospice care what's mandated. And in any nursing home, many times they will have a designated funeral home that's already in your chart. Okay, So just so that you understand that, the family would have said, okay, well go ahead, call the funeral home. We have it listed down there. They call the funeral home. Funeral home comes and picks up, picks up Constance Okay, Now we don't know how her body was prepped, because in certain hospitals and facilities, what they'll do is they'll use what's called a morgpack. A morkpack is not a body bag. It is a plastic wrapping that goes around the body and it has strings with it where you can tie the body off. It's tied around the neck, and it's tied around the waist, it's tied around the feet, and it almost looks like kite string that comes in this thing, and they'll be placed onto a gurney and they will be covered. Have you ever seen those coverings that funeral homes use. They're kind of they look like carpet. They're furry looking and in grand calligraphy, embroidery, calligraphy along the side. It'll have the logo of the funeral home on this thing, and they're pushing. You see it at crime scenes many times people that use contractors like this, they'll be pushing the body. So that's the way this would have gone down. And then they because most nursing home facilities don't have morgus, so they the funeral home literally comes to the room, removes the body off of the bed, places the body onto the gurney, covers it in this this thing that identifies the funeral home, goes down the hallway, places the body in the back of a hearse and it could be a van, and then they drive off. But then then there's.

More to the story.

More to the story.

But wait, there's more. The family has to now deal with a phone call. And where did this phone call come from? Does it come from the workers at the funeral home. Probably not, they're going to get a funeral. The family would then get a phone call from the local emergency room, perhaps the charged nurse, and they're calling to say, hey, look, this is so and so with you know, the local general hospital. Your loved one is here. We're trying to save her life. And the family's thinking, oh my gosh, well wait we wait, we were told she was dead. Yeah, and now why are you calling us? And so that's the kind of thing.

But wait, there's more. The family has to now deal with a phone call. And where did this phone call come from? Does it come from the workers at the funeral home. Probably not, they're going to get a funeral. The family would then get a phone call from the local emergency room, perhaps the charged nurse, and they're calling to say, hey, look, this is so and so with you know, the local general hospital. Your loved one is here. We're trying to save her life. And the family's thinking, oh my gosh, well wait we wait, we were told she was dead. Yeah, and now why are you calling us? And so that's the kind of thing.

That that would be just devastating it.

That that would be just devastating it.

Is, and that's you know, this brings us back to the cardinal sience of death, you know, with constance in this particular case, the fact that the level of attention that is actually required in something like this is not intended to perhaps and it's not the hospice staff that pays the price for it, because yeah, they're they're providing care. But I doubt that you know, anybody at the nursing home actually sat around and celebrated holidays with Constance over the entirety of her life, or laughed with her, or cried with her, or celebrated life with her. It's the family at the end of the day that where this really comes into play, and it's I think that it is a cautionary tale and I'm so sorry that the family went through this. But again, as we always say, uh, you know, the devil is in fact in the details, and particularly when it comes to a death investigation, it's important to remember never ever assume anything. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks

Is, and that's you know, this brings us back to the cardinal sience of death, you know, with constance in this particular case, the fact that the level of attention that is actually required in something like this is not intended to perhaps and it's not the hospice staff that pays the price for it, because yeah, they're they're providing care. But I doubt that you know, anybody at the nursing home actually sat around and celebrated holidays with Constance over the entirety of her life, or laughed with her, or cried with her, or celebrated life with her. It's the family at the end of the day that where this really comes into play, and it's I think that it is a cautionary tale and I'm so sorry that the family went through this. But again, as we always say, uh, you know, the devil is in fact in the details, and particularly when it comes to a death investigation, it's important to remember never ever assume anything. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks